PDA

View Full Version : GU #57: No new PvP/BG accessories? Timetravelling said...


Pages : [1] 2

EndevorX
07-31-2010, 10:51 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=481953&post_id=5356531" target="_blank">Re:Fundamental Reformation in Stagnation? Warfields/Faction Balance/PvP Ranks/Immunity/Items</a>:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite><span style="color: #ff0000;">timetravelling</span> wrote in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=480904&post_id=5346675" target="_blank">Re: DEV: Say something!</a>:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Draagun wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>1) Token Exchange</p><p>2) Class Balance</p><p>3) When the next season gear is coming out</p><p>4) Trade in for gear</p></blockquote><p>1) We are aware of the issues with obtaining Smuggler's Rum for some players and would like to work out a solution. No ETA, but it is on our radar. We would like for everyone to be able to obtain every piece of gear, but at the same time do not want to push people away from a very fun BG that is just (unfortunately) hard to queue for.</p><p>2) This is ongoing, and, imo, going well. Beyond abilities that are bugged, we prefer not to adjust classes between updates. Any balance changes would likely come with GU57</p><p>3) We do not currently plan to release a new armor set with GU57. New gear, yes, just not armor in particular</p><p>4) No plans to implement this in any form.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">We're not being hung out to dry, but it's...<em>"possible"</em>...that not as much capital that could be committed to the bettering of our environment, is allocated appropriately.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I consider that there will still be new "campaign" releases of battlegrounds/open world PvP equipment, but the lack of a palpable timetable, or incentivized rankings for open world PvP and battlegrounds placement, is a disheartening circumstance that many of us are aware of.</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">What's up with the prospect addressed in Timetravelling's answer to #3, and why haven't we seen any new PvP/battlegrounds accessories in GU#57 notes?</span></p>

Olihin
08-02-2010, 01:37 PM
<p><span style="font-size: medium;">Greetings,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">I will be adding more items to our merchants, but not until later updates.   There is a bigger issue that we are looking into that once fixed, we will be able to devote more time into getting new items made.   Until then, please take some time and give me feedback on the various PvP weapons we currently have and any pros and cons so that I can avoid the cons in making our new weapons.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Thank you!</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #3366ff;">Olihin</span></p>

Guld_Ulrish
08-02-2010, 02:17 PM
<p>Why fix iteams when so much other stuff is broken in pvp?</p>

Mosha D'Khan
08-02-2010, 02:18 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Greetings,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">I will be adding more items to our merchants, but not until later updates.   There is a <strong><span style="font-size: large;">bigger issue</span></strong> that we are looking into that once fixed, we will be able to devote more time into getting new items made.   Until then, please take some time and give me feedback on the various PvP weapons we currently have and any pros and cons so that I can avoid the cons in making our new weapons.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Thank you!</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #3366ff;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>would this Bigger issue be the Fighter nerf?</p>

Olihin
08-02-2010, 02:30 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why fix <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>iteams</strong></span> when so much other stuff is broken in pvp?</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Hello,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">We can honestly fill in the bolded word with any other topic that does not concern each players' current priority issue.   At this time items may not concern your as much, but to others they do.   I am still waiting for some of your feedback about what IS wrong in your type of play.   There will always be changes that are not going to directly affect you as a player, but they still need to be made.  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Thank you for your understanding and patience! </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #3366ff;">Olihin</span></p>

Grumble69
08-02-2010, 03:12 PM
<p>For the BGs--until you can properly fix Smuggler's Den, can you lower the win conditions to 1000pts & 10min cut-off?</p><p>Many of my matches in 70-79 don't have more than 2 groups on one side.  It's actually kind of fun that way.  And I prefer it over the x4 zerg fest.  But since there are fewer players, there are not as many total kill points.  So the matches are stretching out the full 15min.  I wouldn't mind that if there was a mechanic where the losing side could catch-up.  But as it stands now, you usually play hard for 5min and the last 10min is just tedium (regardless of which side you're on).</p>

Guld_Ulrish
08-02-2010, 03:13 PM
<p>Fame system and the writ system? Classes dmg reduction that makes them lol?</p>

Putyo
08-02-2010, 03:45 PM
<p>Items are probably one of the biggest and easiest to fix problems with pvp right now.</p><p>toughness and stupid annoying procs we have asked them to remove for 3 years now.</p><p>glad to see you looking into this, please dont screw it up horribly like the start of SF...</p><p>wasting time changing pre level 90 BG's is well... a waste of time. Unless you are comanded by smokejumper to focus on low level content so people can be happy on EQ2X, but pretty much every department is doing that right now, how soon until we can just buy pvp tokens?</p>

Heelo
08-02-2010, 03:50 PM
<p><span ><span>Legionnaire's Conviction is broken on pvp servers as well as stonewill only procing for 1000 damage in pve...is stuff like this getting fixed as well?</span></span></p>

Shankapotomus
08-02-2010, 04:00 PM
<p>Scout auto attacks maybe? 2 hits, 2 double hits, flurries, and procs that happen too frequently?</p><p>And a mage gets like at max a 10% chance to double spell?</p><p>But then again, the bigger issues don't involve PvP at all right now do they?</p>

Olihin
08-02-2010, 04:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Items are probably one of the biggest and easiest to fix problems with pvp right now.</p><p>toughness and stupid annoying procs we have asked them to remove for 3 years now.</p><p>glad to see you looking into this, please dont screw it up horribly like the start of SF...</p><p>wasting time changing pre level 90 BG's is well... a waste of time. Unless you are comanded by smokejumper to focus on low level content so people can be happy on EQ2X, but pretty much every department is doing that right now, how soon until we can just buy pvp tokens?</p></blockquote><p>In regards to the procs, many have been changed already.</p><ul><li>Rune of BlastingAnashti Sul charmAncient Robe of the DiscipleLiving DeadAncient Robe of the DiscipleBelt of OpportunityBertox CharmBlade Singer's EffectBrell CharmChainlinks of HatredEnchanted Gi of the WarFear CharmFire Runed RobeGrowth Charm's damage shieldMarr's Chosen effectMerciful LegguardsPantaloons of the Peaceful VisionaryRing of TormentingSol Ro's charmSpirit Draining WristguardTribunal's charmWar's charmPoison Coin's Result Poison Coin Mage Welled Up RageTerrestrial StrikeSurpressed Rage Fangs of ByzolaExacting EyeCrippling Magical Affliction Greater Magical Affliction Magical Affliction Greater Burning Affliction Greater Grave Elemental's Affliction Grave Elemental's Affliction Smashing PumpkinAtmospheric Discharge Bane of Slain PainDarkened Direction Darkness of the VoidLong Road to Ruin Major Arrhythmia Obsidian ChaosDeadly CombinationRune FistOrderAges EndBalance of ChaosChaosTerrestrial SmiteTorturous Paths Pestilence TorrentPestilential RainToxic TempestFollowthroughWildfireMystic HavocGravity FluxConcussive Shock effects</li></ul><p>All now reduced in PvP and many other effect like the ones on the PvP items have been reduced in how many times they proc.   I am not sure which other ones other then those you gain from Raids are you speaking about?</p>

Olihin
08-02-2010, 04:37 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span>Legionnaire's Conviction is broken on pvp servers as well as stonewill only procing for 1000 damage in pve...is stuff like this getting fixed as well?</span></span></p></blockquote><p>This is already being looked into.  I believe I had already informed you of this when you inquired in game.  I may be mistaken, it could have been SK # 321 ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /></p>

Shankapotomus
08-02-2010, 04:51 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Items are probably one of the biggest and easiest to fix problems with pvp right now.</p><p>toughness and stupid annoying procs we have asked them to remove for 3 years now.</p><p>glad to see you looking into this, please dont screw it up horribly like the start of SF...</p><p>wasting time changing pre level 90 BG's is well... a waste of time. Unless you are comanded by smokejumper to focus on low level content so people can be happy on EQ2X, but pretty much every department is doing that right now, how soon until we can just buy pvp tokens?</p></blockquote><p>In regards to the procs, many have been changed already.</p><ul><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;"></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Torrent</span></li><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;"></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Pestilential Rain</span></li><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;"></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Toxic Tempest</span></li><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;"></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Followthrough</span></li><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;"></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Wildfire</span></li><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;"></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Mystic Havoc</span></li><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;"></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Gravity Flux</span></li><li>Concussive Shock effects</li></ul><p>All now reduced in PvP and many other effect like the ones on the PvP items have been reduced in how many times they proc.   I am not sure which other ones other then those you gain from Raids are you speaking about?</p></blockquote><p>Was wondering if my damage spells would ever be able to out DpS PvP heal procs? my lightning bolt went from hitting for 5k to 1.5k in PvP after the resist fix. Thanks for the 15% increase though. 1,500 x 1.15= 1725. With average health being almost 20k now, I rather try and heal myself till Qs get tired and run off.</p><p>Also, when will tank classes stop being able to out heal me in BGs?</p><p>Thanks</p>

Shankapotomus
08-02-2010, 05:00 PM
<p>Whats up with scouts running me out of power before they hit 80%? Anything on that?</p>

Charmnevac
08-02-2010, 05:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Was wondering if my damage spells would ever be able to out DpS PvP heal procs? my lightning bolt went from hitting for 5k to 1.5k in PvP after the resist fix. Thanks for the 15% increase though. 1,500 x 1.15= 1725. With average health being almost 20k now, I rather try and heal myself till Qs get tired and run off.</p><p>Also, when will tank classes stop being able to out heal me in BGs?</p><p>Thanks</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, i think toughness and resistance consolidation need to go, because DPS for alot of classes went down this expansion, instead of up, and everyone has like 2x the amount of HP from TSO ( exaggeration ).</p>

Shankapotomus
08-02-2010, 05:02 PM
<p>Could I stop stunning myself when I'm being auto-attacked by scouts from my thornskin?</p>

bRz
08-02-2010, 05:03 PM
<p>Greater rune of mending is being affected by crits, crit bonus and potency, I regularly see it healing for nearly 3k</p>

Shankapotomus
08-02-2010, 05:04 PM
<p>Anyway I could use my dispel PvP charm slot when I get shadowstepped-stunned by an assassin (or any class) and never got a chance to engage?</p>

Thinwizzy
08-02-2010, 05:09 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span>Legionnaire's Conviction is broken on pvp servers as well as stonewill only procing for 1000 damage in pve...is stuff like this getting fixed as well?</span></span></p></blockquote><p>This is already being looked into.  I believe I had already informed you of this when you inquired in game.  I may be mistaken, it could have been SK # 321 ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Could we add Battle Frenzy to this list as well?  It is still broken in PvE content on PvP servers only.</p>

Cloakentuna
08-02-2010, 05:10 PM
<p>Although this is a minor change to those procs, why on earth did you do it?</p><p>Inc. DPS is already so minimal this xpac that you get a group with the Toughness and PvP Crit Mit and 1 or 2 healers who aren't completely terrible and they never die, god forbid you throw a tank in there.</p><p>Either remove Toughness or PvP Crit Mit, or drastically increase incoming damage in PvP because as it stands now, any group fight is a huge waste of time 99% of the time.</p>

Thinwizzy
08-02-2010, 05:12 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Although this is a minor change to those procs, why on earth did you do it?</p><p>Inc. DPS is already so minimal this xpac that you get a group with the Toughness and PvP Crit Mit and 1 or 2 healers who aren't completely terrible and they never die, god forbid you throw a tank in there.</p><p>Either remove Toughness or PvP Crit Mit, or drastically increase incoming damage in PvP because as it stands now, any group fight is a huge waste of time 99% of the time.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p>

BlueEternal
08-02-2010, 05:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Although this is a minor change to those procs, why on earth did you do it?</p><p>Inc. DPS is already so minimal this xpac that you get a group with the Toughness and PvP Crit Mit and 1 or 2 healers who aren't completely terrible and they never die, god forbid you throw a tank in there.</p><p>Either remove Toughness or PvP Crit Mit, or drastically increase incoming damage in PvP because as it stands now, any group fight is a huge waste of time 99% of the time.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p></blockquote><p>QFE x2</p><p>Nerfing more damage is not the solution atm.</p>

Olihin
08-02-2010, 05:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>SNIPPED...</cite></blockquote><p>Was wondering if my damage spells would ever be able to out DpS PvP heal procs? my lightning bolt went from hitting for 5k to 1.5k in PvP after the resist fix. Thanks for the 15% increase though. 1,500 x 1.15= 1725. With average health being almost 20k now, I rather try and heal myself till Qs get tired and run off.</p><p>Also, when will tank classes stop being able to out heal me in BGs?</p><p>Thanks</p></blockquote><p>Greetings,</p><p>This is a tough balance to resolve.  On the one side, you are not able to defeat your enemy with the current AA/Gear set up you have and I am just giving you the benefit of having full masters...On the other side, you are telling me that you can heal yourself till your opponents get tired...which tells me you are not doing so bad either with the unbuffed 14k HP that is not yet the average number you listed.   I have two options:</p><ul><li>Let you kill faster, die faster.</li><li>Let you survive longer, kill slower.</li></ul><p>At this time, players report that I have succeded in letting you all live longer.   The next step is to let you have the other choice of being able to kill faster.   Before all this can be done, we have to look at the base issues that are being reported and adjust them. This will take a good amount of time, but it is being looked into.</p><p>In regards to the other topic, tanks will soon be able to stop out healing you in general.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #3366ff;">Olihin</span></p>

Olihin
08-02-2010, 05:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Although this is a minor change to those procs, why on earth did you do it?</p><p>Inc. DPS is already so minimal this xpac that you get a group with the Toughness and PvP Crit Mit and 1 or 2 healers who aren't completely terrible and they never die, god forbid you throw a tank in there.</p><p>Either remove Toughness or PvP Crit Mit, or drastically increase incoming damage in PvP because as it stands now, any group fight is a huge waste of time 99% of the time.</p></blockquote><p>Greetings,</p><p>The change was needed for many reasons, but the main one being the removal of the innate damage reduction each character had in PvP.  Those with the procs noticed the difference only after a player was in full PvP Gear.  In most cases, a player not in full PvP gear will still be easily slain with the proc of certain items.</p><p>I am looking at the Toughness stat as a first line of modification to increasing the damage in PvP.  As stated previously, there are other factors that need to be looked at before these changes are done. </p><p><span style="font-size: large; color: #3366ff;">Olihin</span></p>

Shankapotomus
08-02-2010, 05:33 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>SNIPPED...</cite></blockquote><p>Was wondering if my damage spells would ever be able to out DpS PvP heal procs? my lightning bolt went from hitting for 5k to 1.5k in PvP after the resist fix. Thanks for the 15% increase though. 1,500 x 1.15= 1725. With average health being almost 20k now, I rather try and heal myself till Qs get tired and run off.</p><p>Also, when will tank classes stop being able to out heal me in BGs?</p><p>Thanks</p></blockquote><p>Greetings,</p><p>This is a tough balance to resolve.  On the one side, you are not able to defeat your enemy with the current AA/Gear set up you have and I am just giving you the benefit of having full masters...On the other side, you are telling me that you can heal yourself till your opponents get tired...which tells me you are not doing so bad either with the unbuffed 14k HP that is not yet the average number you listed.   I have two options:</p><ul><li>Let you kill faster, die faster.</li><li>Let you survive longer, kill slower.</li></ul><p>At this time, players report that I have succeded in letting you all live longer.   The next step is to let you have the other choice of being able to kill faster.   Before all this can be done, we have to look at the base issues that are being reported and adjust them. This will take a good amount of time, but it is being looked into.</p><p>In regards to the other topic, tanks will soon be able to stop out healing you in general.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #3366ff;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Ah?</p><p>take into account buffs (since healers gain a good amount of health from buffs, fyi), I have about 17.5k health [not to mention I am a leather wearer who naturally has less hit points than scouts (which sit at about the average,)]. I did say average correct? mages-16k, scouts-20k, tanks-25k, healers-16-21k. The average of that is actually 19.6k (sorry, I rounded up for you). Those are my calculations case you have not gotten that far in your guyes research yet. Thats partly because I'm still working on my adorns. Yep, mostly masters.</p><p>Also, if you read my post I didn't specify you need to fix ME. I believe furies are good. Instead of starting at the bottum, try bringing down the top please.</p>

Heelo
08-02-2010, 05:42 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span>Legionnaire's Conviction is broken on pvp servers as well as stonewill only procing for 1000 damage in pve...is stuff like this getting fixed as well?</span></span></p></blockquote><p>This is already being looked into.  I believe I had already informed you of this when you inquired in game.  I may be mistaken, it could have been SK # 321 ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>It wasn't me but just remeber I should be at least in the top 5 of that list good sir!</p>

Joemomm
08-02-2010, 05:42 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span style="font-size: medium;">Snipped</span></blockquote><blockquote><span style="font-size: medium;"> <span style="color: #ff0000;">give me feedback on the various PvP weapons we currently have and any pros and cons so that I can avoid the cons in making our new weapons.  </span></span></blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Thank you!</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #3366ff;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>I am still fairly new to looking at, and investing in pvp gear, including weapons, but since you asked for suggestions here is one:</p><p>I have a dirge but none of the pvp gear seems to be geared toward boosting support classes. Nearly all the fun stats (I can't speak that smart gamer term speak that you can) are fairly generic toward live (things that make you go ahhh...) and die (things that make you go AHHHHH!!!!)</p><p>So what would be really nifty, though it may take some time and work, would be pvp gear that targets specific classes or abilities again. Ex. (TSO bracers of dark melody (?) that increased the duration of songs by 10%) Anything on Pvp gear that makes my dirge think "Gee, I'm so glad to be a dirge now, in this wonderful pvp fight with all this cool unique gear and procs that I bring with me!"</p><p>Classes that would enjoy the above example:</p><p>Dirges</p><p>Troubys</p><p>Illys (though these already own me so in the classic naggy player attitude I say, NERF EM! ((Just kidding <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" />)))</p><p>Coecers</p><p>You are doing a great job Olihin! Keep up the snarky forum comments please, they are always good for a chuckle!</p>

Putyo
08-02-2010, 05:49 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Items are probably one of the biggest and easiest to fix problems with pvp right now.</p><p>toughness and stupid annoying procs we have asked them to remove for 3 years now.</p><p>glad to see you looking into this, please dont screw it up horribly like the start of SF...</p><p>wasting time changing pre level 90 BG's is well... a waste of time. Unless you are comanded by smokejumper to focus on low level content so people can be happy on EQ2X, but pretty much every department is doing that right now, how soon until we can just buy pvp tokens?</p></blockquote><p>In regards to the procs, many have been changed already.</p><ul><li>Rune of BlastingAnashti Sul charmAncient Robe of the DiscipleLiving DeadAncient Robe of the DiscipleBelt of OpportunityBertox CharmBlade Singer's EffectBrell CharmChainlinks of HatredEnchanted Gi of the WarFear CharmFire Runed RobeGrowth Charm's damage shieldMarr's Chosen effectMerciful LegguardsPantaloons of the Peaceful VisionaryRing of TormentingSol Ro's charmSpirit Draining WristguardTribunal's charmWar's charmPoison Coin's Result Poison Coin Mage Welled Up RageTerrestrial StrikeSurpressed Rage Fangs of ByzolaExacting EyeCrippling Magical Affliction Greater Magical Affliction Magical Affliction Greater Burning Affliction Greater Grave Elemental's Affliction Grave Elemental's Affliction Smashing PumpkinAtmospheric Discharge Bane of Slain PainDarkened Direction Darkness of the VoidLong Road to Ruin Major Arrhythmia Obsidian ChaosDeadly CombinationRune FistOrderAges EndBalance of ChaosChaosTerrestrial SmiteTorturous Paths Pestilence TorrentPestilential RainToxic TempestFollowthroughWildfireMystic HavocGravity FluxConcussive Shock effects</li></ul><p>All now reduced in PvP and many other effect like the ones on the PvP items have been reduced in how many times they proc.   I am not sure which other ones other then those you gain from Raids are you speaking about?</p></blockquote><p>/facepalm</p><p>[Removed for Content] is this? those procs having nothing to do at all with gear problems in pvp. Reducing damage on procs that already do 300 damage? is this a joke? Not to mention it looks like you are nerfing some procs off endgame mobs such as theer before they are already in killed? Lol...</p><p>The procs im talking about are blood ritual (something basically needed to spike anyone with toughness down, I shouldnt even be mentioning this), baleful contenance, kinectic barrier and stupid procs that make healers close to unkillable. You obviously think those procs are gods gift to pvp except they and procs simimliar have been plaguing us for 3 frigging years, raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced, it is usually the pvp designed gear that is horribly out of whack.</p><p>Well at least I know its already screwed up, the 10mins when i was excited this morning was almost worth it. Its like you do the exact opposite of what needs to be done.</p><p>I'm not sure if youve noticed sitting in Ganak/gears for 20minutes with 10 people dying the entire round is not fun, then again if you did you wouldnt need all this feedback.</p>

Notsovilepriest
08-02-2010, 06:11 PM
<p>Here is my opinion on what should go down, as a healer mind you but I'm giving an honest effort to not be bias:</p><p>1)Combat Does not drop until death of one party</p><p>2)Greys attacking reds results in a carnage flag</p><p>3) Carnage Flag persists through death</p><p>4) Replace Fame for what it was, BUT remove the ability for 3rd parties to see your title so you don't know if you will win or lose fame as an attempt to promote fighting over running.</p><p>5) Remove the Damage reduction for PvP as the result of toughness, Damage for the most part is too low</p><p>6) Make PvE Crit mit work in PvP, but at 3/4ths effectiveness of full PvP crit mit, but PvP Crit mit not work in PvE.</p><p>7) Revive Sickness(None Player Rezes) from PvP results in Revive sickness with 100% Casting Speed Slow, 100% Reuse increase except for Call abilities, Chance to hit with a Weapon Decreased by 100% for 2 mins</p><p><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Remove Immunity except for Cities and GH's and for 30 seconds after zoning, and immunity after death ticks down for 30 seconds after Revive sickness wears off</p><p>9) Scout Evac must stand still like all over evacs</p><p>10) Drop Crit Bonus on Preds Final Trick to 10-20 at max rank</p><p>11) Fix Stonewill, Battle Frenzy, Legionaires Conviction on PvP servers while in PvE Combat</p><p>12) Increase Interupt Immunity to 2-3 seconds</p>

Cloakentuna
08-02-2010, 06:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here is my opinion on what should go down, as a healer mind you but I'm giving an honest effort to not be bias:</p><p>1)Combat Does not drop until death of one party</p><p>2)Greys attacking reds results in a carnage flag</p><p>3) Carnage Flag persists through death</p><p>4) Replace Fame for what it was, BUT remove the ability for 3rd parties to see your title so you don't know if you will win or lose fame as an attempt to promote fighting over running.</p><p>5) Remove the Damage reduction for PvP as the result of toughness, Damage for the most part is too low</p><p>6) Make PvE Crit mit work in PvP, but at 3/4ths effectiveness of full PvP crit mit, but PvP Crit mit not work in PvE.</p><p>7) Revive Sickness(None Player Rezes) from PvP results in Revive sickness with 100% Casting Speed Slow, 100% Reuse increase except for Call abilities, Chance to hit with a Weapon Decreased by 100% for 2 mins</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" />Remove Immunity except for Cities and GH's and for 30 seconds after zoning, and immunity after death ticks down for 30 seconds after Revive sickness wears off.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">IIRC the only immunity in cities is for people of opposing factions.  I'm 90% certain Qeynos people don't get immunity timers while in Qeynos, same for FP.  However, if FP people come into Qeynos, they get 30s immunity while zoning which is pretty stupid imo, take it away.</span></p><p>9) Scout Evac must stand still like all over evacs</p><p>10) Drop Crit Bonus on Preds Final Trick to 10-20 at max rank</p><p>11) Fix Stonewill, Battle Frenzy, Legionaires Conviction on PvP servers while in PvE Combat</p><p>12) Increase Interupt Immunity to 2-3 seconds</p></blockquote><p>I'd also add perhaps introducing a knockback immunity into the game, doesn't need to be big, 2-3 seconds would be fine for me, I'd just like to be able to cast spells and what not in between somebody punting me across the map.</p><p>Otherwise, pretty much agree with everything.</p>

Ballads
08-02-2010, 06:37 PM
<p>Turn Mutalate into an AE proc and change about 50% of player caused Detremental effects to Uncurable. 1 cast of a spell every 10 seconds(that soem healers have 2 of) should not be able to remove 8+ effects and then become full heal by heals per effect procs. Id say change it to any effect that isnt a CC is an uncurable Detriment in pvp including all forms of debuffs and dots. If its a CC (stun ,stifle, taunt, daze, direction face, snare, Knockback, root, no hostile, no benificial, or any effect that prevents action) it remains curable.</p>

Epiph
08-02-2010, 06:59 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span>Legionnaire's Conviction is broken on pvp servers as well as stonewill only procing for 1000 damage in pve...is stuff like this getting fixed as well?</span></span></p></blockquote><p>This is already being looked into.  I believe I had already informed you of this when you inquired in game.  <span style="font-size: xx-large;"><strong>I may be mistaken, it could have been SK # 321 ... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /></strong></span></p></blockquote><p>lol zing.</p>

Olihin
08-02-2010, 07:06 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>SNIPPED</cite></blockquote><p>/facepalm</p><p>[Removed for Content] is this? those procs having nothing to do at all with gear problems in pvp. Reducing damage on procs that already do 300 damage? is this a joke? Not to mention it looks like you are nerfing some procs off endgame mobs such as theer before they are already in killed? Lol...</p><p>The procs im talking about are blood ritual (something basically needed to spike anyone with toughness down, I shouldnt even be mentioning this), baleful contenance, kinectic barrier and stupid procs that make healers close to unkillable. You obviously think those procs are gods gift to pvp except they and procs simimliar have been plaguing us for 3 frigging years, raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced, it is usually the pvp designed gear that is horribly out of whack.</p><p>Well at least I know its already screwed up, the 10mins when i was excited this morning was almost worth it. Its like you do the exact opposite of what needs to be done.</p><p>I'm not sure if youve noticed sitting in Ganak/gears for 20minutes with 10 people dying the entire round is not fun, then again if you did you wouldnt need all this feedback.</p></blockquote><p>Hello,</p><p>Raid procs have barely been a problem in PvE; the gear is designed to compliment your class in a raid environment, which is clearly not the same for PvP.   I am sure you are very aware how much damage some of the effects did prior to the changes and why they needed to be addressed.  </p><p>The other procs that you are talking about are all defensive procs.  They were made to allow players to live longer and they are doing just that.  There are others balance issues that need to be considered when added to a strong healer, but most of the new procs have not been around for 3 years.  The procs that have been around that long, just made players a bit more tough to kill but it was never a huge problem to most.  I do not plan on adding some of those procs to future items, but they are still effective should a player choose to wear them.</p><p>Like I mentioned before, we need to look at toughness and the additional defensive procs to make sure that we are changing things appropriately.  The feedback is nice to have, regardless of positive or negative.</p><p><span style="font-size: large; color: #3366ff;">Olihin</span></p>

Joemomm
08-02-2010, 07:29 PM
<p>Excuse me Olihin, do you think you could add a "White Flag" option to battlegrounds? Kind of like the AFK vote to kick afk players. I find myself in yet another Klak BG with no healer going against a dirge/ranger/sk/templar/wizard/gaurdian combo and I just wish I could vote "white flag" to save the time.....any chance? Mostly would like it for klak since there isnt much other way to speed up defeat in it.</p>

Oakum
08-02-2010, 08:20 PM
<p>I have a solution for those classes that are complaining because they can no longer one shot anyone they wish due to toughness and defensive procs. Its really quite simple.</p><p>Make it so that toughness doesnt effect attacks from someone of their own class.</p><p>Assassins wouldnt have to worry about toughness of assassins ect. Wizards, wizards ect ect .</p><p>Then they can run around and one shot each other and the classes that cant do it dont have to worry about them. All are happy. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

Putyo
08-02-2010, 08:59 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>SNIPPED</cite></blockquote><p>/facepalm</p><p>[Removed for Content] is this? those procs having nothing to do at all with gear problems in pvp. Reducing damage on procs that already do 300 damage? is this a joke? Not to mention it looks like you are nerfing some procs off endgame mobs such as theer before they are already in killed? Lol...</p><p>The procs im talking about are blood ritual (something basically needed to spike anyone with toughness down, I shouldnt even be mentioning this), baleful contenance, kinectic barrier and stupid procs that make healers close to unkillable. You obviously think those procs are gods gift to pvp except they and procs simimliar have been plaguing us for 3 frigging years, raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced, it is usually the pvp designed gear that is horribly out of whack.</p><p>Well at least I know its already screwed up, the 10mins when i was excited this morning was almost worth it. Its like you do the exact opposite of what needs to be done.</p><p>I'm not sure if youve noticed sitting in Ganak/gears for 20minutes with 10 people dying the entire round is not fun, then again if you did you wouldnt need all this feedback.</p></blockquote><p>Raid procs have barely been a problem in PvE;</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">I was talking about how raid procs have been fine in pvp, which they have.</span></p><p>the gear is designed to compliment your class in a raid environment, which is clearly not the same for PvP.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Actually if procs did the damage they were supposed to, or close to it we would have less problems with people living forever in pvp.</span></p><p>I am sure you are very aware how much damage some of the effects did prior to the changes and why they needed to be addressed.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Before what changes? atm most procs are doing 200-500 damage, besides blood ritual, id say 95% of all other procs were fine in TSO and with SF its all copy/paste gear.</span></p><p>The other procs that you are talking about are all defensive procs.  They were made to allow players to live longer and they are doing just that.  There are others balance issues that need to be considered when added to a strong healer, but most of the new procs have not been around for 3 years.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">These new defensive procs are a huge part of the problem with healers living far to long, get rid of 90% of them.</span></p><p>  The procs that have been around that long, just made players a bit more tough to kill but it was never a huge problem to most.  I do not plan on adding some of those procs to future items, but they are still effective should a player choose to wear them.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">You obviously dont know how annoying and pointless the fear proc is. The fear proc is only good for healers wearing mastercrafted gear and if you are balancing pvp for those people then something is seriously wrong.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: large; color: #3366ff;"></span></p></blockquote><p>You could fix most of this by removing all toughness and upping crit mit, including blue slot adornments on all gear.</p><p>It would require testing to make sure the crit mit ratio is not to high or low and if completely removing toughness would be viable.</p><p>But that would require some research, work, and testing, both of which is a little to much to ask at this point.</p>

Corydonn
08-02-2010, 09:24 PM
<p>Damage reduction abilities and effects are still doing too much, Starting off a fight hitting for well over 1k-2k with a swing only to have Kinetic Barrier and Ability procs take the swings down to one hundred or two hundred with a lucky swing after a few quick hitting melee classes start hitting the player is kinda frustrating.</p>

Crismorn
08-02-2010, 09:27 PM
<p><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Turn Mutalate into an AE proc and change about 50% of player caused Detremental effects to Uncurable. 1 cast of a spell every 10 seconds(that soem healers have 2 of) should not be able to remove 8+ effects and then become full heal by heals per effect procs. Id say change it to any effect that isnt a CC is an uncurable Detriment in pvp including all forms of debuffs and dots. If its a CC (stun ,stifle, taunt, daze, direction face, snare, Knockback, root, no hostile, no benificial, or any effect that prevents action) it remains curable.</p></blockquote><p>I would rather have my heals nerfed beyond the pvp tooltip rather then lose my ability to cure crap off me</p>

Cloakentuna
08-02-2010, 10:24 PM
<p>It's funny how the players who are actually out there "testing" these things think one thing is the issue meanwhile the Dev thinks something completely opposite is the problem.</p><p>I've got a question for you sir.  Do you play EQ2?  If so do you PvP or do BGs?  If so are you playing with people who actually know what they are doing, or do you play with people who have no clue and don't use the Toughness/Crit mit gear? </p><p>Here let me put things into perspective for you.</p><p>I was out with a 4-man group the other day that consisted of my warden, an Inquis, a Dirge, and an SK.  Myself and the Inquis were pretty decked out in Toughness and Crit mit adorns, the SK had no new pvp gear, and the Dirge had 4 pieces with crit mit adorns.  In 23 minutes of fighting (6 people) the other day in Stonebrunt (1 fight mind you, it only ended because more Qs showed up) these were hte proc damage totals.</p><p>SK: Fatal Lifetap: 121k total, 89 DPS, 250 Average hit.  Blood Symphony: 62k total 46 DPS 997 Average hit.  Followthrough: 43k total, 32 DPS, 180 Average hit.  Pest. Rain: 20k total, 14 DPS, 281 Average hit.   </p><p>Average Auto Attack damage for the SK was 900 which is scewed upwards since we had a guard path through our fight and take damage.</p><p>My Warden healed for just about 5 million damage and none of our people ever came close to dying.</p><p>I don't see how you can come out here and say proc damage is a problem when if anything you should be raising the damage from procs to compensate for all this crit mit and toughness, I mean seriously, do you even play this game?</p>

Bosconi
08-03-2010, 01:47 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't see how you can come out here and say proc damage is a problem when if anything you should be raising the damage from procs to compensate for all this crit mit and toughness...</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Kinda agree here.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Thanks everyone for [Removed for Content] my thread with off-topic developer-consumer feedback. WE're supposed to be raging about our grievious loss of timetravelling...>[</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Now if only Olihin would go troll those reclusive EQ2X devs into [Removed for Content] the EQ2X feedback threads with off-topic developer-consumer feedback (for awesome posts to start with, check my posting history, namely the ones headed "EverQuest II Extended: Redeemed")...</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">Priest Weapons:</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">2-hander with 6-7 sec delay</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1-hander with 6-7 sec delay</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Cleansing Heals cure proc (or 1 like ring of emptiness w/ immunity + delayed cure)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration 2 trigger heal procs</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration ward procs</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration +50% to next heal (NOT BROKEN VERSIONS like that on aITEM -1426606283 2049700786:Ferhustr's Furious Rolling-Pin/a <- dat crap barely ever procs)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">2 trigger stoneskin w/ groupwide power regen (to replace, not stack with, Ring of Blood and Rage or Soulshattering Bland)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Stonewill II/II </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Deadly Repulsion (when hit by melee, 4% chance to proc 10 sec, 2,000 point ward that regens 1,000 every 2 sec)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Casting/Reuse </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Crit bonus/potency </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ability mod </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Particle effects that maintain when sheathed (unique)</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">Fighter Weapons:</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">2-hander with 6-7 sec delay</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1-hander with 6-7 sec delay</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration STR/DPS/attack speed proc</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration accuracy proc (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration strikethrough proc (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration hit chance increase proc (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration flurry proc (feel free to take or improve "Zealous Annihilation" from aITEM -1148213193 -385189988:Aeteok, Spirit Render/a <strong><em><span style="color: #ff0000;">and sell the item for like, 3,000-5,000 PvP tokens or more [like mebbe 10,000 PvP tokens!]</span></em></strong>)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Deadly Repulsion (when hit by melee, 4% chance to proc 10 sec, 2,000 point ward that regens 1,000 every 2 sec)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Manaweave 3 (power regen a la Jewel of Many Colors/Soul Reaper's Hoop)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Critical chance (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Double attack (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Stonewill 3</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Crit bonus/potency </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ability mod </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Particle effects that maintain when sheathed (unique)</span></p>

PeaSy1
08-03-2010, 02:21 AM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't see how you can come out here and say proc damage is a problem when if anything you should be raising the damage from procs to compensate for all this crit mit and toughness...</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Kinda agree here.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Thanks everyone for [Removed for Content] my thread with off-topic developer-consumer feedback. WE're supposed to be raging about our grievious loss of timetravelling...>[</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Now if only Olihin would go troll those reclusive EQ2X devs into [Removed for Content] the EQ2X feedback threads with off-topic developer-consumer feedback (for awesome posts to start with, check my posting history, namely the ones headed "EverQuest II Extended: Redeemed")...</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">Priest Weapons:</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">2-hander with 6-7 sec delay</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1-hander with 6-7 sec delay</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Cleansing Heals cure proc (or 1 like ring of emptiness w/ immunity + delayed cure)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration 2 trigger heal procs</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration ward procs</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration +50% to next heal (NOT BROKEN VERSIONS like that on aITEM -1426606283 2049700786:Ferhustr's Furious Rolling-Pin/a <- dat crap barely ever procs)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">2 trigger stoneskin w/ groupwide power regen (to replace, not stack with, Ring of Blood and Rage or Soulshattering Bland)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Stonewill II/II </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Deadly Repulsion (when hit by melee, 4% chance to proc 10 sec, 2,000 point ward that regens 1,000 every 2 sec)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Casting/Reuse </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Crit bonus/potency </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ability mod </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Particle effects that maintain when sheathed (unique)</span></p><p><strong><span style="color: #ff9900;">Fighter Weapons:</span></strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">2-hander with 6-7 sec delay</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1-hander with 6-7 sec delay</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration STR/DPS/attack speed proc</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration accuracy proc (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration strikethrough proc (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration hit chance increase proc (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1.8/2 times a minute 35 sec duration flurry proc (feel free to take or improve "Zealous Annihilation" from aITEM -1148213193 -385189988:Aeteok, Spirit Render/a <strong><em>and sell the item for like, 3,000-5,000 PvP tokens</em></strong>)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Stonewill 3</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Deadly Repulsion (when hit by melee, 4% chance to proc 10 sec, 2,000 point ward that regens 1,000 every 2 sec)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Manaweave 3 (power regen a la Jewel of Many Colors/Soul Reaper's Hoop)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Crit bonus/potency </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Ability mod </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"> (not good enough alone)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Particle effects that maintain when sheathed (unique)</span></p></blockquote><p>Please for the love of Katy Perry no more power proc crap.....</p>

Notsovilepriest
08-03-2010, 02:24 AM
<p>Not every healer class has gear power regen alone...</p>

Bosconi
08-03-2010, 02:24 AM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I didn't suggest Manaweave III for priests, which would be unacceptable. But many priests already have the Ring of Blood and Rage or the Soulshattering Band, and the expectation would be that this not stack with them.</span></p>

PeaSy1
08-03-2010, 03:18 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not every healer class has gear power regen alone...</p></blockquote><p>Im pretty confident i didnt even mention healer.</p>

Notsovilepriest
08-03-2010, 03:34 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not every healer class has gear power regen alone...</p></blockquote><p>Im pretty confident i didnt even mention healer.</p></blockquote><p>Touche, I couldn't read more than half a Seliri post and saw power proc on the top option which happened to be healer.</p>

Bosconi
08-03-2010, 03:39 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not every healer class has gear power regen alone...</p></blockquote><p>Im pretty confident i didnt even mention healer.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Yer a nub if you think it'd be wrong to put manaweave 3 on a weapon for fighters, cause then that frees up a precious ear or ring slot! Owait...dudoes being a nub...what's new. n_n</span></p>

Lourd
08-03-2010, 03:52 AM
<p><cite><a href="mailto<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Items are probably one of the biggest and easiest to fix problems with pvp right now.</p><p>toughness and stupid annoying procs we have asked them to remove for 3 years now.</p><p>glad to see you looking into this, please dont screw it up horribly like the start of SF...</p><p>wasting time changing pre level 90 BG's is well... a waste of time. Unless you are comanded by smokejumper to focus on low level content so people can be happy on EQ2X, but pretty much every department is doing that right now, how soon until we can just buy pvp tokens?</p></blockquote><p>In regards to the procs, many have been changed already.</p><ul><li>Rune of BlastingAnashti Sul charmAncient Robe of the DiscipleLiving DeadAncient Robe of the DiscipleBelt of OpportunityBertox CharmBlade Singer's EffectBrell CharmChainlinks of HatredEnchanted Gi of the WarFear CharmFire Runed RobeGrowth Charm's damage shieldMarr's Chosen effectMerciful LegguardsPantaloons of the Peaceful VisionaryRing of TormentingSol Ro's charmSpirit Draining WristguardTribunal's charmWar's charmPoison Coin's Result Poison Coin Mage Welled Up RageTerrestrial StrikeSurpressed Rage Fangs of ByzolaExacting EyeCrippling Magical Affliction Greater Magical Affliction Magical Affliction Greater Burning Affliction Greater Grave Elemental's Affliction Grave Elemental's Affliction Smashing PumpkinAtmospheric Discharge Bane of Slain PainDarkened Direction Darkness of the VoidLong Road to Ruin Major Arrhythmia Obsidian ChaosDeadly CombinationRune FistOrderAges EndBalance of ChaosChaosTerrestrial SmiteTorturous Paths Pestilence TorrentPestilential RainToxic TempestFollowthroughWildfireMystic HavocGravity FluxConcussive Shock effects</li></ul><p>All now reduced in PvP and many other effect like the ones on the PvP items have been reduced in how many times they proc.   I am not sure which other ones other then those you gain from Raids are you speaking about?</p></blockquote><p>/facepalm</p><p>[Removed for Content] is this? those procs having nothing to do at all with gear problems in pvp. Reducing damage on procs that already do 300 damage? is this a joke? Not to mention it looks like you are nerfing some procs off endgame mobs such as theer before they are already in killed? Lol...</p><p>The procs im talking about are blood ritual (something basically needed to spike anyone with toughness down, I shouldnt even be mentioning this), baleful contenance, kinectic barrier and stupid procs that make healers close to unkillable. You obviously think those procs are gods gift to pvp except they and procs simimliar have been plaguing us for 3 frigging years, raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced, it is usually the pvp designed gear that is horribly out of whack.</p><p>Well at least I know its already screwed up, the 10mins when i was excited this morning was almost worth it. Its like you do the exact opposite of what needs to be done.</p><p>I'm not sure if youve noticed sitting in Ganak/gears for 20minutes with 10 people dying the entire round is not fun, then again if you did you wouldnt need all this feedback.</p></blockquote><p> ? raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced?</p><p>Well, maybe a proc is balanced in and of itself, but not when you start stacking proc items in every item slot.  Then things like this happen:</p><p><img src="http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6848/eq2procs.jpg" width="467" height="524" /></p><p>1 auto ranged attack and 1 actually ability ,tap essence, for a total of 1k dmg. Okay, fine.  But then a chain of procs from those two attacks that do a combined 5k dmg.   What the hell is that? </p><p>The sheer amount of proc items available in EQ2 has gotten out of hand (there is a piece of proc gear for every item slot nowadays, except quivers... I guess those are next).  And it cheapens the game because they're all thoughtless,  free effects.  I'd like to see procs phased out and greater emphasis be placed on core class and AA abilities.  </p>

Bosconi
08-03-2010, 04:00 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> ? raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced?</p><p>Well, maybe a proc is balanced in and of itself, but not when you start stacking proc items in every item slot.  Then things like this happen:</p><p><img src="http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6848/eq2procs.jpg" width="467" height="524" /></p><p>1 auto ranged attack and 1 actually ability ,tap essence, for a total of 1k dmg. Okay, fine.  But then a chain of procs from those two attacks that do a combined 5k dmg.   What the hell is that? </p><p>The sheer amount of proc items available in EQ2 has gotten out of hand (there is a piece of proc gear for every item slot nowadays, except quivers... I guess those are next).  And it cheapens the game because they're all thoughtless,  free effects.  I'd like to see procs phased out and greater emphasis be placed on core class and AA abilities. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The problem with Lourd's post is that it's a complete appeal to pathos (emotion) over logos (logic).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The ability of players to heal through and survive this DPS completely counteracts whatever ideas you have about procs "being too powerful".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">For priests with the Ring of Blood and Rage or Soulshattering Band (and maybe the Ring of Repulsion as well), longevity is FAR BEYOND any of the supposed fallacy that is "procs are OP". Include 2 priests & 2 tanks similarly enabled and it's truly [Removed for Content].</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Truly though Olihin, it's probably BEST if the nerf to procs DOES NOT go live, because the lifespan of players or stacked groups is already FAR TOO EXTREME.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">There is NO doubt that SINGLE engagements often last 30+ minutes until one side outnumbers the other, or flees if they can't.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Having PvP encounters with the possibility for such a duration is bad, because battlegrounds and warfields events alone are 20 and 30 minutes.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If you're engaged in 1 fight for the entirety of that scenario, then you don't really get to fully experience the entirety of what took place in that event.</span></p>

Lourd
08-03-2010, 04:39 AM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> ? raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced?</p><p>Well, maybe a proc is balanced in and of itself, but not when you start stacking proc items in every item slot.  Then things like this happen:</p><p><img src="http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6848/eq2procs.jpg" width="467" height="524" /></p><p>1 auto ranged attack and 1 actually ability ,tap essence, for a total of 1k dmg. Okay, fine.  But then a chain of procs from those two attacks that do a combined 5k dmg.   What the hell is that? </p><p>The sheer amount of proc items available in EQ2 has gotten out of hand (there is a piece of proc gear for every item slot nowadays, except quivers... I guess those are next).  And it cheapens the game because they're all thoughtless,  free effects.  I'd like to see procs phased out and greater emphasis be placed on core class and AA abilities. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The problem with Lourd's post is that it's a complete appeal to pathos (emotion) over logos (logic).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The ability of players to heal through and survive this DPS completely counteracts whatever ideas you have about procs "being too powerful".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">For priests with the Ring of Blood and Rage or Soulshattering Band (and maybe the Ring of Repulsion as well), longevity is FAR BEYOND any of the supposed fallacy that is "procs are OP". Include 2 priests & 2 tanks similarly enabled and it's truly [Removed for Content].</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Truly though Olihin, it's probably BEST if the nerf to procs DOES NOT go live, because the lifespan of players or stacked groups is already FAR TOO EXTREME.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">There is NO doubt that SINGLE engagements often last 30+ minutes until one side outnumbers the other, or flees if they can't.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Having PvP encounters with the possibility for such a duration is bad, because battlegrounds and warfields events alone are 20 and 30 minutes.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If you're engaged in 1 fight for the entirety of that scenario, then you don't really get to fully experience the entirety of what took place in that event.</span></p></blockquote><p>Wait, what? Are you really trying to counter my argument that procs are OP with more examples of OP procs? </p><p>And yes, players are too hard to kill these days because of toughness and, you guessed it, procs.    But if you take away toughness, then there's no more reason to use pvp gear over pve raid gear anymore.</p>

Notsovilepriest
08-03-2010, 04:41 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> ? raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced?</p><p>Well, maybe a proc is balanced in and of itself, but not when you start stacking proc items in every item slot.  Then things like this happen:</p><p><img src="http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6848/eq2procs.jpg" width="467" height="524" /></p><p>1 auto ranged attack and 1 actually ability ,tap essence, for a total of 1k dmg. Okay, fine.  But then a chain of procs from those two attacks that do a combined 5k dmg.   What the hell is that? </p><p>The sheer amount of proc items available in EQ2 has gotten out of hand (there is a piece of proc gear for every item slot nowadays, except quivers... I guess those are next).  And it cheapens the game because they're all thoughtless,  free effects.  I'd like to see procs phased out and greater emphasis be placed on core class and AA abilities. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The problem with Lourd's post is that it's a complete appeal to pathos (emotion) over logos (logic).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The ability of players to heal through and survive this DPS completely counteracts whatever ideas you have about procs "being too powerful".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">For priests with the Ring of Blood and Rage or Soulshattering Band (and maybe the Ring of Repulsion as well), longevity is FAR BEYOND any of the supposed fallacy that is "procs are OP". Include 2 priests & 2 tanks similarly enabled and it's truly [Removed for Content].</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Truly though Olihin, it's probably BEST if the nerf to procs DOES NOT go live, because the lifespan of players or stacked groups is already FAR TOO EXTREME.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">There is NO doubt that SINGLE engagements often last 30+ minutes until one side outnumbers the other, or flees if they can't.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Having PvP encounters with the possibility for such a duration is bad, because battlegrounds and warfields events alone are 20 and 30 minutes.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If you're engaged in 1 fight for the entirety of that scenario, then you don't really get to fully experience the entirety of what took place in that event.</span></p></blockquote><p>Wait, what? Are you really trying to counter my argument that procs are OP with more examples of OP procs? </p><p>And yes, players are too hard to kill these days because of toughness and, you guessed it, procs.    But if you take away toughness, then there's no more reason to use pvp gear over pve raid gear anymore.</p></blockquote><p>I see 2 item procs specific to raiding, 1 of which is easily 1 group-able. Also that SS is from last expansion, Pre-Resist Change, Pre Toughness.</p>

Bosconi
08-03-2010, 04:49 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I see 2 item procs specific to raiding, 1 of which is easily 1 group-able. <span style="color: #ff00ff;">Also that SS is from last expansion</span>, Pre-Resist Change, Pre Toughness.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">LOL. I thought that for a moment but dismissed the idea, I didn't think someone would actually try to pull that...</span></p>

Notsovilepriest
08-03-2010, 04:53 AM
<p>Snow and Badgers, Thats midst the TG zerg if I have ever seen it!</p>

Lourd
08-03-2010, 05:30 AM
<p>Yep. That screenshot is from the last expansion,  before the copy pasty Zarrakon/Anashti Sul loot showed up on the pvp vendors.  At the time most of those procs were still from raid-only loot.</p><p>I was simply addressing the comment "raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced."</p><p>But I guess that's kinda true since the Devs never went all Monty Haul with proc gear until TSO.   And now in SF , it's never been worse.</p><p>I say get rid of it all dmg procs, ward procs, mana procs, all of it that comes from gear. Let the dmg procs and mana regen come from support classes like bards and enchanters, and defensive wards come from healers.</p>

Rotate
08-03-2010, 06:58 AM
<p>pvp weapons.</p><p>Brawler pvp weapons, </p><p>they are 2.5 delay.. fighting anyone that has pvp gear on.. u are basicly just chain procing thier reactives and doing no damage with these fast low damage weapons. The are completely worthless in pvp,</p>

Thinwizzy
08-03-2010, 10:54 AM
<p>We don't need anymore copies of raid gear on the pvp merchants.  This gear is already in the game.  If you only want to play one aspect of the game that is fine, but you should not get the gear rewards set aside for the other part of the game.  We do not need everyone in the game running around with a copy of the best weapon/jewelry/whatever possible.  This just cheapens any achievement and removes the effort it takes to get these items, especially with pvp tokens being such a joke to earn.</p>

Taldier
08-03-2010, 12:58 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>pvp weapons.</p><p>Brawler pvp weapons, </p><p>they are 2.5 delay.. fighting anyone that has pvp gear on.. u are basicly just chain procing thier reactives and doing no damage with these fast low damage weapons. The are completely worthless in pvp,</p></blockquote><p>Until they fix the damage reduction crap any weapon but a 2hdr is worthless in pvp.  But yeah, attacking with 2.5's right now is basically the fastest way to <strong><em>increase</em></strong> your opponents hp.  Thats even worse than worthless.</p>

Toxicz
08-03-2010, 02:24 PM
<p>The main problem is toughness as everyone has already stated. Reducing proc damage is the last thing you need to worry about. Having a proc like torrent II that does 3.3k in pve, only hit for 300 in pvp is stupid along with any other high damage proc hitting that low.</p><p>If you really wanna fix the problem that most Pvp'ers see, take out toughness. Instead of trying to change other things that don't need changing or completely ignoring the fact that it makes pvp way to drawn out, and boring, just own up to the fact that toughness SUCKS.</p><p>Everyone who plays on pvp will be much happier if you would just listen to what we want, trust me.</p>

Putyo
08-03-2010, 03:21 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite><a href="mailto<img src="></a>[email protected]">[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected]Nagafen wrote:</cite></p></blockquote></blockquote><p> ? raid procs have barely been a problem over the years because raid gear is actually well thought out and balanced?</p><p>Well, maybe a proc is balanced in and of itself, but not when you start stacking proc items in every item slot.  Then things like this happen:</p><p><img src="http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6848/eq2procs.jpg" width="467" height="524" /></p><p>1 auto ranged attack and 1 actually ability ,tap essence, for a total of 1k dmg. Okay, fine.  But then a chain of procs from those two attacks that do a combined 5k dmg.   What the hell is that? </p><p>The sheer amount of proc items available in EQ2 has gotten out of hand (there is a piece of proc gear for every item slot nowadays, except quivers... I guess those are next).  And it cheapens the game because they're all thoughtless,  free effects.  I'd like to see procs phased out and greater emphasis be placed on core class and AA abilities.  </p></blockquote><p>Hey guys i have terrible gear and someone killed me so im complaining, BTW that screen shot only has 2 procs you got from actual TSO raiding, the rest of it was from group instances or SoH, which was from RoK.</p><p>Last I checked pvp was 100x better in TSO then in SF, unless you enjoy fighting people for over 20minutes with nobody dying.</p><p>95% of raid procs have been balanced fine for years now and it was working great.</p><p>Blue adorns on all armor, scale down toughness considerably, up crit mit and put a flat pvp crit mit attached to all gear, less on treasured, more on legendary, more on fabled. Same crit mit for pvp and pve armor.</p><p>Make it so pvp gear is good but it still gives players incentive to raid which adds longevity to the game, you dont need a full x4 to get a set of t1 red slot armor.</p><p>Froggleg had an excellent point where everyone "testing" the live pvp is saying damage is way to reduced and then oilthin saying procs are hitting to hard, hilarious.</p><p>Test it before you push it live.</p><p>or continue to ignore us, it seems you dont care either way</p>

Cloakentuna
08-03-2010, 04:03 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's funny how the players who are actually out there "testing" these things think one thing is the issue meanwhile the Dev thinks something completely opposite is the problem.</p><p>I've got a question for you sir.  Do you play EQ2?  If so do you PvP or do BGs?  If so are you playing with people who actually know what they are doing, or do you play with people who have no clue and don't use the Toughness/Crit mit gear? </p><p>Here let me put things into perspective for you.</p><p>I was out with a 4-man group the other day that consisted of my warden, an Inquis, a Dirge, and an SK.  Myself and the Inquis were pretty decked out in Toughness and Crit mit adorns, the SK had no new pvp gear, and the Dirge had 4 pieces with crit mit adorns.  In 23 minutes of fighting (6 people) the other day in Stonebrunt (1 fight mind you, it only ended because more Qs showed up) these were hte proc damage totals.</p><p>SK: Fatal Lifetap: 121k total, 89 DPS, 250 Average hit.  Blood Symphony: 62k total 46 DPS 997 Average hit.  Followthrough: 43k total, 32 DPS, 180 Average hit.  Pest. Rain: 20k total, 14 DPS, 281 Average hit.   </p><p>Average Auto Attack damage for the SK was 900 which is scewed upwards since we had a guard path through our fight and take damage.</p><p>My Warden healed for just about 5 million damage and none of our people ever came close to dying.</p><p>I don't see how you can come out here and say proc damage is a problem when if anything you should be raising the damage from procs to compensate for all this crit mit and toughness, I mean seriously, do you even play this game?</p></blockquote><p>I hate to pull a Seliri here but I forgot to add some things. </p><p>As I've stated multiple times, I think it's hillarious that you think procs, offensive ones speicifically, are the problem.  Well, lets look at the Defensive procs from that fight.</p><h4>Ancient Invigoration: 433k Healed 319 HPS. (1 piece)  Runic Deflection: 345k Healed 254 HPS.</h4><p>Both of these procs FAR exceeded the total of all of the SKs procs COMBINED, and I was only wearing 1 piece of 1 proc and 2 of the other whereas the SK was wearing at least 2 pieces of all of his procs (minus Blood Symphony), if not more.  Now again, please tell me how offensive procs are the problem.</p>

Peak
08-03-2010, 04:37 PM
<p>Proc nerf AND toughness is a dumb combination. Procs don't need to be nerfed. Fights don't need to last 18 hours. People that were complaining about dying fast were probably complaining about being one shotted by a Wizard or an Assassin.</p><p>Damage has been massively decreased yet healing has remained essentially the same. Like Froggleg and Pudaan and every other notable PVPer has said: Proc damage shouldn't have been nerfed. Proc wards / heals should be looked at because there is so much of it in game now. That decreased healing proc is annoying when it gets on you with a ton of other debuffs, but with the amount of cures available to most healers now even that's a joke to get rid of.</p><p>Back in KOS there were minimal damage procs (notable ones, at least) and minimal defensive procs. Shard of Hate came out in RoK and that introduced one of the biggest ward procs I'd ever seen. Then comes TSO and SF and procs are on almost every piece of gear you get. Back in the day (KOS), it was alright that there weren't any procs. Gear wasn't out of control and people still killed each other just fine and everyone was happy.</p><p>Now procs are everywhere. Procs do a ton of damage for PVP and PVE alike. They're readily available from BG armor, raid armor, heroic instances.. hell, I'm assuming even some treasured gear has some procs on it somewhere. Cutting down proc damage was a noticeable decrease of damage in PVP but combined with Toughness it's just silly.</p><p>I'm all for procs hitting for their full amount. Maybe fine tune a few procs here and there, but for the most part they've been relatively un-nerfed for quite some time now and did fine.</p><p>But to go back to my main thought: balance certain classes. Don't nerf procs, don't nerf everyone in general, balance certain classes. I do think that Wizards should hit relatively hard. Jesus, if I was fighting and I saw someone summon a f'ing massive spinning fiery orb of death in front of me, I would expect to die or at the very least be severely injured. And if someone is dumb enough to get hit by Fusion in the first place, they deserve it. However, if a Wizard can hit me super hard they shouldn't be next to invincible just because they have a few AA points in damage reduction.</p><p>Bring back offensive procs and focus on what's important: class balance and (if needed) defensive procs.</p><p>Oh, and just a random thought: Add a new BG scenario that's Barren Sky with all procs disabled with decreased stats. Decreased crit chance, crit bonus, potency, and all that nonsense that's so out of control now and see how it works. In general that'd just be a good idea. Think of it as a BG "test" scenario. One problem we have now is you take all this feedback and try to figure out what's best and we have to wait till the next GU to see any results and to (possibly) be disappointed and frustrated. Wouldn't it be much easier if you had a "test" scenario people could go through (almost like playing on the Test server) which has the latest proposed PVP changes so we can test it and feedback it?</p><p>Surely that'd prevent things people dislike such as proc changes, Toughness, etc etc etc.</p><p>Just a thought.</p>

Olihin
08-03-2010, 07:27 PM
<p>Hello,</p><p>After reading your feedback it is a common theme that Toughness needs to be evaluated.  We will go over the numbers and adjust them as needed to make sure we reach the survivability that is intended.  We will make sure to include AA, Class abilities and the procs currently available in the equation.   </p><p>We are aware of the various changes that need to be made to improve overall fun in our PvP servers and we appreciate your feedback on each topic.   At this time, I cannot say when these changes will go live.   What I can say is that our team is committed to making positive changes for our PvP servers.     </p><p>Thank you!</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Putyo
08-03-2010, 07:57 PM
<p>Thank you.</p><p>Please reach out to the community/guilds and ask for testing or private feedback on these before you just stamp them on a GU.</p>

Bosconi
08-03-2010, 09:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wait, what? Are you really trying to counter my argument that procs are OP with more examples of OP procs? </p><p>And yes, players are too hard to kill these days because of toughness and, you guessed it, procs.    But if you take away toughness, then there's no more reason to use pvp gear over pve raid gear anymore.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Your approach is completely mistaken and unrealistic.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">They will never remove procs and establish the game in a way where all these features are innate character aspects.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The only way to replace procs is if certain classes had: another type of adornment to either infuse gear on a class-specific level, or another advancement tree altogether.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Regardless, priests can live even without the 2 stoneskin proc items I mentioned, and even against tens of people with that many procs.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Point was, extreme survivability tends to be the problem, far more than any DPS done even with procs.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If toughness is removed or added to PvE gear, then PvE crit mit would need to be added to PvP gear, and blue adorns would have to include class-specific options as well.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Though the likely route may just be to diminish the potency of toughness, I wouldn't mind returning to universal critical mitigation and destroying toughness.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">(P.S. Thanks Olihin!) ;D</span></p><div><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thank you.</p><p>Please reach out to the community/guilds and ask for testing or private feedback on these before you just stamp them on a GU.</p></blockquote></div><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You elitist ho bag!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">There are certainly ways to organize public tests with protocols outlined for properly reporting a given system.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And Peak, bro, you totally know they're not going to just go test some random battlegrounds scenario with everything disabled, cause that'd make everyone rage about their time commitment being negated.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">IMO, before changes are even made, there just needs to be some thorough testing.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I don't think it's that bad right now, and I don't think everyone necessarily has as thorough a perspective on these matters as they could.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Fighting even or stacked odds while undermanned, or while undergeared, it can drastically change players' perception of what the issues could be.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Berserkers, especially, can misrepresent an engagement because their heals are SO FREAKING CRAZY, on top of their ability to keep nearly everyone taunt locked unless you have a Shadowknight for Death March or Templar for Sanctuary. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And then if you have another tank in there, you just might not be able to compete if your DPS is doing less than the Crusader or Berserkers and not trying to focus direct damage on their most contributory priest.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I'm kinda OCD, but if i was behind these changes, I'd be testing every combo of priests, every combo of fighters, every combo of DPS with completely stacked PvP gear and maybe 2 red slot pieces, and then also throw out a wild card and give both priests items like the Ring of Blood and Rage and the Soulshattering band while not endowing the other group with such.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">But, such a scheme takes time, and who knows if that's as disposable as we might wish for the PvP arena of development...</span></p>

Peak
08-03-2010, 10:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please reach out to the community/guilds and ask for testing or private feedback on these before you just stamp them on a GU.</p></blockquote><p>This.</p><p>A battleground scenario that was used as a 'test' server in a sense would be amazing. Not even close to enough people would log on to an actual test server to test out BG/PVP changes ... but a scenario they could queue up for? Maybe. Make sure it doesn't give any tokens or XP though, imo.</p>

Bosconi
08-03-2010, 10:27 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please reach out to the community/guilds and ask for testing or private feedback on these before you just stamp them on a GU.</p></blockquote><p>This.</p><p>A battleground scenario that was used as a 'test' server in a sense would be amazing. Not even close to enough people would log on to an actual test server to test out BG/PVP changes ... but a scenario they could queue up for? Maybe. Make sure it doesn't give any tokens or XP though, imo.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You don't know if enough people would log on or not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If they schedule it a week or two in advance on the forums and broadcast about it in-game, requiring RSVP (early correspondence to be included in a certain testing pairing), they'd likely get a good number.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The difference for their idea of battlegrounds testing was that there was no RSVP required, dates and times kept changing, and there was no distinct goal on terms of data collection objectives to accomplish.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">They could also send out inquiring tells to those who have been actively PvPing the past couple of weeks or month, as well.</span></p>

Peak
08-03-2010, 11:34 PM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please reach out to the community/guilds and ask for testing or private feedback on these before you just stamp them on a GU.</p></blockquote><p>This.</p><p>A battleground scenario that was used as a 'test' server in a sense would be amazing. Not even close to enough people would log on to an actual test server to test out BG/PVP changes ... but a scenario they could queue up for? Maybe. Make sure it doesn't give any tokens or XP though, imo.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You don't know if enough people would log on or not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If they schedule it a week or two in advance on the forums and broadcast about it in-game, requiring RSVP (early correspondence to be included in a certain testing pairing), they'd likely get a good number.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">The difference for their idea of battlegrounds testing was that there was no RSVP required, dates and times kept changing, and there was no distinct goal on terms of data collection objectives to accomplish.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">They could also send out inquiring tells to those who have been actively PvPing the past couple of weeks or month, as well.</span></p></blockquote><p>Or they could simply introduce a 'special rules' BG scenario purely for testing new mechanics before they go live gamewide.</p>

Bosconi
08-03-2010, 11:57 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or they could simply introduce a 'special rules' BG scenario purely for testing new mechanics before they go live gamewide.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Testing requires variable equipment builds and group combinations competing against each other, utilizing coordinated and focused teams.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If you have someone whose toon is normally one with 150 AAs all of a sudden being given 250 AAs and a lot of uber gear, who's to say that player will have their wits about them enough to organize their new AA abilities and focus on healing the right players.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">RSVP prep for test builds would allow players to be slotted according to defined settings.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Emphasis for a test team would be notations like: </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · DPSers creating target macros for the priests (or DPSers as well for those playing fighters)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · priests remembering to cure themselves when target locked</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · clerics remembering to move and stop if their stifle immunity isn't working</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · scouts using mental breach on priests</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · chain stunning/knocking back (considering abilities like teh templar hammer!!)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · manastones/power regen over time potions being used since the beginning of the fight (in cases where builds disclude items like the Ring of Blood & Rage/Signet of Devouring/Soulshattering band)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · other miscellaneous PvP details I forget</span></p>

Peak
08-04-2010, 12:07 AM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or they could simply introduce a 'special rules' BG scenario purely for testing new mechanics before they go live gamewide.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Testing requires variable equipment builds and group combinations competing against each other, utilizing coordinated and focused teams.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If you have someone whose toon is normally one with 150 AAs all of a sudden being given 250 AAs and a lot of uber gear, who's to say that player will have their wits about them enough to organize their new AA abilities and focus on healing the right players.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">RSVP prep for test builds would allow players to be slotted according to defined settings.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Emphasis for a test team would be notations like: </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · DPSers creating target macros for the priests (or DPSers as well for those playing fighters)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · priests remembering to cure themselves when target locked</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · clerics remembering to move and stop if their stifle immunity isn't working</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · scouts using mental breach on priests</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · chain stunning/knocking back (considering abilities like teh templar hammer!!)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · manastones/power regen over time potions being used since the beginning of the fight (in cases where builds disclude items like the Ring of Blood & Rage/Signet of Devouring/Soulshattering band)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"> · other miscellaneous PvP details I forget</span></p></blockquote><p>In the real world, you don't always have scouts using mental breach, or clerics that realize you have to stay still for Steadfast to work, or any other nonsense. And I'm not even sure where a player going from 150->250AA came from.</p><p>All I said is introduce a new scenario, no different than any others, except that it has different mechanic rules. Players can queue up solo and group for it. No doubt any PVP change is going to effect BGs just as much, and vice versa, so there is no reason why it couldn't be a BG scenario. It would open up testing to anyone on any server without having to log in to the Test server.</p><p>Have it give no rewards. Have it give no XP or AA. Make it simple, not CTF or anything, but just a simple brawl between two groups to test out mechanics.</p>

Bosconi
08-04-2010, 02:38 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In the real world, you don't always have scouts using mental breach, or clerics that realize you have to stay still for Steadfast to work, or any other nonsense. And I'm not even sure where a player going from 150->250AA came from.</p><p>All I said is introduce a new scenario, no different than any others, except that it has different mechanic rules. Players can queue up solo and group for it. No doubt any PVP change is going to effect BGs just as much, and vice versa, so there is no reason why it couldn't be a BG scenario. It would open up testing to anyone on any server without having to log in to the Test server.</p><p>Have it give no rewards. Have it give no XP or AA. Make it simple, not CTF or anything, but just a simple brawl between two groups to test out mechanics.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">To truly test things effectively and gauge what problems there might possibly be, you can't have weak links that will diminish the quality of the experiment.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If mechanics are changed in a battlegrounds scenario built for testing, you don't want a character with 150 AAs fighting those with 250 AAs, because they're irrelevant to the picture of balance.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Were your approach to be used, AAs would need to be temporarily upped, and then you just have the burden of completely careless players who just enjoy the "go go go" mentality, who would probably ignore: any notations for optimal group performance or time to organize hotbars with new AA abilities/targeting macros/etc.</span></p>

Proud_Silence
08-04-2010, 12:39 PM
<p>Why does the end-customer even have to do the testing for sony anyway ? What a lousy concept for a multi million $ enterprise, for crying out loud...</p><p>Next time i buy a car, i guess i have to be prepared to get a fail car, and feedback to the producer, what exactly isn't working.</p><p>You want me to test your crap ? then instead of taking my 15 bucks a month, you should pay me.</p>

Bleuty
08-04-2010, 01:33 PM
<p>I don't know why you guys keep whining PVP this PVP that GU57 is made for PVP not PVE so if anybody should be whining it should be PVE</p>

Taldier
08-04-2010, 05:45 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't know why you guys keep whining PVP this PVP that GU57 is made for PVP not PVE so if anybody should be whining it should be PVE</p></blockquote><p>Most of GU57 is a shameless RMT push into the asian market which doesnt help pvp or pve.</p><p>And the crit heals for fighters?  If they wanted to disable them for pvp only they are more then capable of doing so.  The rulesets already use different damage calculations.</p><p>Whine blubie whine.  Everything is magically "our" fault despite the fact that all damage and heals are calculated differently in pvp than in pve!  The amount of fail in blubie logic never stops amazing me.</p>

Brynhild
08-04-2010, 05:59 PM
<p>Why do you guys think toughness is broken? It's only broken for a few classes, namely sorc.</p><p> If someone is debuffed properly they drop like a rock , regardless of their toughness.  If your group makeup is correct and you time your debuffs/attacks properly, tanks go down fast.  The only classes that don't die super fast are sorc and brawlers (broken avoidance).</p><p>Most of you probably experienced PVP against other toons that have low aa, low gear, etc.</p><p>Go against a full group of 250 aa, experienced pvp players, with a stacked group and it doesn't matter who you are or what toughness you have you will die in under 5 seconds.  </p><p>1v1 though, is a completely different story.  I'm not sure this can be fixed easily without messing up the group mechanic.</p><p>My suggestion was to make toughness add pvp crit mit only and no damage reduction, but add LOTS of crit mit, over 100%.   This will make players stack potency in pvp instead of crit bonus, just like it was in TSO, and without the damage reduction, players will still take damage 1v1 although nothing will crit, which is perfectly fine.</p>

Peak
08-04-2010, 10:46 PM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In the real world, you don't always have scouts using mental breach, or clerics that realize you have to stay still for Steadfast to work, or any other nonsense. And I'm not even sure where a player going from 150->250AA came from.</p><p>All I said is introduce a new scenario, no different than any others, except that it has different mechanic rules. Players can queue up solo and group for it. No doubt any PVP change is going to effect BGs just as much, and vice versa, so there is no reason why it couldn't be a BG scenario. It would open up testing to anyone on any server without having to log in to the Test server.</p><p>Have it give no rewards. Have it give no XP or AA. Make it simple, not CTF or anything, but just a simple brawl between two groups to test out mechanics.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">To truly test things effectively and gauge what problems there might possibly be, you can't have weak links that will diminish the quality of the experiment.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">If mechanics are changed in a battlegrounds scenario built for testing, you don't want a character with 150 AAs fighting those with 250 AAs, because they're irrelevant to the picture of balance.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Were your approach to be used, AAs would need to be temporarily upped, and then you just have the burden of completely careless players who just enjoy the "go go go" mentality, who would probably ignore: any notations for optimal group performance or time to organize hotbars with new AA abilities/targeting macros/etc.</span></p></blockquote><p>The game isn't only built around the hardcore-been-playing-since-2006 PVPer.</p>

Putyo
08-04-2010, 11:01 PM
<p><cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why do you guys think toughness is broken? It's only broken for a few classes, namely sorc.</p><p> If someone is debuffed properly they drop like a rock , regardless of their toughness.  If your group makeup is correct and you time your debuffs/attacks properly, tanks go down fast.  The only classes that don't die super fast are sorc and brawlers (broken avoidance).</p><p>Most of you probably experienced PVP against other toons that have low aa, low gear, etc.</p><p>Go against a full group of 250 aa, experienced pvp players, with a stacked group and it doesn't matter who you are or what toughness you have you will die in under 5 seconds.  </p><p>1v1 though, is a completely different story.  I'm not sure this can be fixed easily without messing up the group mechanic.</p><p>My suggestion was to make toughness add pvp crit mit only and no damage reduction, but add LOTS of crit mit, over 100%.   This will make players stack potency in pvp instead of crit bonus, just like it was in TSO, and without the damage reduction, players will still take damage 1v1 although nothing will crit, which is perfectly fine.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, every point in this post is completely wrong, unless you were a sorc in TSO, then base damage was better.</p><p>I'm fairly certain you arent talking about the same game with that post though</p>

Prophesy
08-05-2010, 03:39 AM
<p>This pvp sucks with the current mechanics .  Log in for raids, dont want to run instances b/c they suck and there is what 7 or 8 maybe new heroic instances in this xpac?.  Your correct i dont have the current pvp gear b/c i cant get into the bg's at all.  I would take tso pvp anyday.  I mean sersiouly who complained about using raid gear in pvp. The d*** cry baby's who this fu**in game is catering too now.  How hard is it to remove toughness and pvp crit mit????? Delete it in one LU, just like it was added.  You push this stupid fu**in mechanics with no testing.  Just to verify you said to test, i would log over run around 30mins and find no one to fight, so i would log out. </p><p>Crit mit is crit mit, when you gave these cry baby scrub pvpers this blue adorn pvp crit mit crap they think they are gods now.  Stop catering and fix it.  You were told the problems by vet pvpers who pretty much made pvp fun now just do what your told before more people just stop loggin in at all.</p><p>Sorry for rambling in this post all, 2:30 am and just [Removed for Content] after reading this crap posted by Ohilin.</p>

sveppir
08-05-2010, 04:03 AM
<p>Casters need Strength on gear !!!</p>

Toxicz
08-05-2010, 02:12 PM
<p>Another thing that needs to be looked into is pvp item proc Kinetic Barrier. This proc stacks with other items with the same proc, I've seen up to 4 of these procs on some people. Having 4 of these 2.5% reduced physical damage done to caster plus having a full set up toughness makes any time of melee almost worthless, not to mention they proc 10% of the time when ever damaged. This needs to be looked at or something needs to change with it.</p>

Peak
08-05-2010, 05:12 PM
<p>Olihin should pick out a couple well known veteran PVPers to get legit ideas from. I'm sure there are a number of veteran players that might have even -posted- in this thread that would be happy to offer up suggestions for revitalizing PVP.</p><p>I understand that anyone can post their thoughts here already, but with all the random no named scrubs posting about how level locking is destroying PVP or about how "insert-class-here" just owned them and should be nerfed.. the meaningful posts tend to be lost in the crowd of crying.</p><p>Hell, I'd be happy to offer up my suggestions. I've played practically every class in PVP and I'm fairly well known. Or even just forget me, I'm sure Pudaan would offer his thoughts, or Heelo, or even Brokensword if you can manage to find him. Grab some of those people and get their thoughts. I'm pretty certain there won't be any "durrhurr give us back Barren Sky PVP" thoughts, even though that would be amazing, but actual good, logical, and definitely implementable ideas and solutions.</p><p>It's really frustrating to see good posts by well known players among idiotic posts by no name players, and then misinterpreted posts and bad changes in every update. For the most part, PVP in this game has gone absolutely downhill since around EOF and ROK. There have always been a number of good and thought out solutions to most problems presented but very few (if any) of them have ever been implemented. It's disappointing to see the feedback players are posting is still seemingly ignored.</p><p>Seriously, pick a few people and get your ideas from them. Communicate more with the playesr here. You say you have some changes in mind *big changes* coming soon, but you can't say anything? Even if it's not a guarantee at least toss out the ideas that are on the table so you can get more feedback. Tell us what you're considering from the feedback you received. Yeah, it will open you up to more flaming and attacks but you know what, you'll get all of that no matter what you do. Enough bullsh^t of being surprised GU after GU as PVP deteriorates more and more.</p><p>TL;DR-> Take the feedback from the known players seriously, because quite frankly some random scrub posting their huge list of terrible ideas while rocking 1K PVP kills doesn't have sh^t on a number of other people who have posted with 30K, 40K, or even 50-60K PVP kills, and I certainly wouldn't trust them for ideas because with 1K PVP kills there is no way they are that good, and their ideas will reflect that.</p>

Toxicz
08-05-2010, 08:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>TL;DR-> Take the feedback from the known players seriously, because quite frankly some random scrub posting their huge list of terrible ideas while rocking 1K PVP kills doesn't have sh^t on a number of other people who have posted with 30K, 40K, or even 50-60K PVP kills, and I certainly wouldn't trust them for ideas because with 1K PVP kills there is no way they are that good, and their ideas will reflect that.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p>

Guld_Ulrish
08-06-2010, 01:13 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Seriously, pick a few people and get your ideas from them. Communicate more with the playesr here. You say you have some changes in mind <strong><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="font-size: large;">*big changes*</span></span></em></strong> coming soon, but you can't say anything? Even if it's not a guarantee at least toss out the ideas that are on the table so you can get more feedback. Tell us what you're considering from the feedback you received. Yeah, it will open you up to more flaming and attacks but you know what, you'll get all of that no matter what you do. Enough bullsh^t of being surprised GU after GU as PVP deteriorates more and more.</p><p>TL;DR-> Take the feedback from the known players seriously, because quite frankly some random scrub posting their huge list of terrible ideas while rocking 1K PVP kills doesn't have sh^t on a number of other people who have posted with 30K, 40K, or even 50-60K PVP kills, and I certainly wouldn't trust them for ideas because with 1K PVP kills there is no way they are that good, and their ideas will reflect that.</p></blockquote><p>I dont like Big changes anymore <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>+1 for asking known hardcore pvpers.</p>

Bosconi
08-06-2010, 01:18 AM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Yeaaah I totally have 37K kills cause getting deleted doesn't erase what was done!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Not really sure if SOE peeps would ever be avid enough to pursue as active a strategy for testing, though. ;o</span></p>

Peak
08-06-2010, 09:33 AM
<p><cite>Bosconi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Yeaaah I totally have 37K kills cause getting deleted doesn't erase what was done!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Not really sure if SOE peeps would ever be avid enough to pursue as active a strategy for testing, though. ;o</span></p></blockquote><p>It does't even have to be a strategy for testing. Simply listen primarily to the hardcore PVPers that have been playing on this server and racking up kills since Feb 21st, 2006. I think that alone, assuming they actually implemented suggestions, would be a great thing for both PVP and BGs.</p>

Lourd
08-06-2010, 02:56 PM
<p>Ballads brought up a good point about detriments and cures in pvp.  There's too much curing in pvp, especially group pvp where you have two or more healers in the group instantly curing off every dot and debuff that lands. Nothing sticks in pvp and this only feeds the problem of neverending fights.  Cures cost hardly any power (far less than what they cure ), have no reuse time, are instant, and for some healers even heal and ward for each detriment cured.  It's pretty [Removed for Content] unfair to classes that depend on dots, reactives, and crowd control to function. </p><p>We already have immunity on crowd control detriments. Shouldn't that be enough?  Could you please get rid of cures in pvp, or at least increase their reuse/powercost/casting time? Something?</p>

Toxicz
08-06-2010, 03:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ballads brought up a good point about detriments and cures in pvp.  There's too much curing in pvp, especially group pvp where you have two or more healers in the group instantly curing off every dot and debuff that lands. Nothing sticks in pvp and this only feeds the problem of neverending fights.  Cures cost hardly any power (far less than what they cure ), have no reuse time, are instant, and for some healers even heal and ward for each detriment cured.  It's pretty [Removed for Content] unfair to classes that depend on dots, reactives, and crowd control to function. </p><p>We already have immunity on crowd control detriments. Shouldn't that be enough?  Could you please get rid of cures in pvp, or at least increase their reuse/powercost/casting time? Something?</p></blockquote><p><span >Do you play on pvp? </span>I don't think so. <strong>Cures are fine and don't need to be touched what-so-ever</strong>.</p><p>Even if DoT's Stick and don't get cured they won't do any damage, not with how much toughness and kinetic barrier mitigate damage in pvp. I was fighting a grp last night on my brigand, i used one both of my dots on a Templar who more than likely had every piece of toughness gear possible along with 5 kinetic barrier procs on him, and my dot ticked on my him 86 and 90. Toughness and all the pvp mitigation crap needs to be fixed first before they go worrying about anything else.</p>

Shredderr
08-06-2010, 04:20 PM
<p>I sincerely hope you look into target locking for brawlers in BG or pvp so healers wont rage so much at us and drop us for the op Guardians <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Aiyana
08-07-2010, 01:55 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ballads brought up a good point about detriments and cures in pvp.  There's too much curing in pvp, especially group pvp where you have two or more healers in the group instantly curing off every dot and debuff that lands. Nothing sticks in pvp and this only feeds the problem of neverending fights.  Cures cost hardly any power (far less than what they cure ), have no reuse time, are instant, and for some healers even heal and ward for each detriment cured.  It's pretty [Removed for Content] unfair to classes that depend on dots, reactives, and crowd control to function. </p><p>We already have immunity on crowd control detriments. Shouldn't that be enough?  Could you please get rid of cures in pvp, or at least increase their reuse/powercost/casting time? Something?</p></blockquote><p>Do you play on pvp? I don't think so. Cures are fine and don't need to be touched what-so-ever.</p><p>Even if DoT's Stick and don't get cured they won't do any damage, not with how much toughness and kinetic barrier mitigate damage in pvp. I was fighting a grp last night on my brigand, i used one both of my dots on a Templar who more than likely had every piece of toughness gear possible along with 5 kinetic barrier procs on him, and my dot ticked on my him 86 and 90. Toughness and all the pvp mitigation crap needs to be fixed first before they go worrying about anything else.</p></blockquote><p>I'd post more on these threads if i actually thought that something would come from it, but Peak is completely right. I wish someone would open up a Eq2 PvP Beta that can filter out the people that propose ridiculous suggestions such as "Get rid of cures in pvp".  I won't even go further into explaining a topic like that because of how ignorant it is.  But i do have to agree that toughness is a broken mechanism and needs to be addressed quickly before we lose more of our dedicated player base.  I won't stress the points again because i am sure they have already been talked about. That and a working fame system. PvP isn't rewarding unless there are consequences attached, currently it's just more mindless and chaotic then what it's ever been before. </p>

Lourd
08-07-2010, 04:58 AM
<p>Please,  I'd love to hear your argument.  Tell me why 1 ability shared across 6 classes (7 if you count paladins) should be able to shut out half the abilities of coercers, illusionists, warlocks, brigands, mystics, and defilers.  Even shadowknights, for all the complaining people do about them, hit like wet noodles if you keep curing their dots. </p>

Aiyana
08-07-2010, 05:15 AM
<p>I can speak as a healer, who's class has probably the fastest cures in the game, that matched against a decent group i can't keep my group free of detrimentals. The ONLY reason that i can come close to keeping my group relatively cured is because there is so much damage reduction in the game that i really have nothing else to do.  There is no pressure to choose between a cure and a heal. Now if i am out trioing against say...idk an x2 of opposite faction then yeah you are going to see detrimentals stack up on my group because i actually have to choose what i'm gonna cast for my group...do i cast my cure and sacrifice not casting my group heal.</p><p>The only reason i could see cures looking broken (which i don't) is because a healer has nothing else to do. Fix the damage reduction and you will see healers having to actually utilize some strategy in what and when they cast.</p>

PeaSy1
08-07-2010, 05:33 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Olihin should pick out a couple well known veteran PVPers to get legit ideas from. I'm sure there are a number of veteran players that might have even -posted- in this thread that would be happy to offer up suggestions for revitalizing PVP.</p><p>I understand that anyone can post their thoughts here already, but with all the random no named scrubs posting about how level locking is destroying PVP or about how "insert-class-here" just owned them and should be nerfed.. the meaningful posts tend to be lost in the crowd of crying.</p><p>Hell, I'd be happy to offer up my suggestions. I've played practically every class in PVP and I'm fairly well known. Or even just forget me, I'm sure Pudaan would offer his thoughts, or Heelo, or even Brokensword if you can manage to find him. Grab some of those people and get their thoughts. I'm pretty certain there won't be any "durrhurr give us back Barren Sky PVP" thoughts, even though that would be amazing, but actual good, logical, and definitely implementable ideas and solutions.</p><p>It's really frustrating to see good posts by well known players among idiotic posts by no name players, and then misinterpreted posts and bad changes in every update. For the most part, PVP in this game has gone absolutely downhill since around EOF and ROK. There have always been a number of good and thought out solutions to most problems presented but very few (if any) of them have ever been implemented. It's disappointing to see the feedback players are posting is still seemingly ignored.</p><p>Seriously, pick a few people and get your ideas from them. Communicate more with the playesr here. You say you have some changes in mind *big changes* coming soon, but you can't say anything? Even if it's not a guarantee at least toss out the ideas that are on the table so you can get more feedback. Tell us what you're considering from the feedback you received. Yeah, it will open you up to more flaming and attacks but you know what, you'll get all of that no matter what you do. Enough bullsh^t of being surprised GU after GU as PVP deteriorates more and more.</p><p>TL;DR-> Take the feedback from the known players seriously, because quite frankly some random scrub posting their huge list of terrible ideas while rocking 1K PVP kills doesn't have sh^t on a number of other people who have posted with 30K, 40K, or even 50-60K PVP kills, and I certainly wouldn't trust them for ideas because with 1K PVP kills there is no way they are that good, and their ideas will reflect that.</p></blockquote><p>This would be a huge step forward but i dont know what kinda criteria you could use to pick these players.</p><p>I remember doing this for an rts game i used to play back in the day and they pulled all the strat mods (like class mods in this case) and brought them together with a EA coder to smooth out the game in topic.</p>

Lourd
08-07-2010, 05:35 AM
<p>Wouldn't you, and every other healer, have more to do if half of your spells, your debuffs and punishment spells, weren't cured off the instant you cast them? </p>

PeaSy1
08-07-2010, 05:40 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wouldn't you, and every other healer, have more to do if half of your spells, your debuffs and punishment spells, weren't cured off the instant you cast them? </p></blockquote><p>Um not really i have plenty of time to utilize all of my class abilities even taking into account people curing my stuff.</p>

Aiyana
08-07-2010, 05:59 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wouldn't you, and every other healer, have more to do if half of your spells, your debuffs and punishment spells, weren't cured off the instant you cast them? </p></blockquote><p>The only thing I would want to do is choke you right now for even considering the possibility of removing a large portion of my class's role in group pvp. </p><p>So as to not derail, remove toughness and establish a fame system that involves real rewards and consequences for participation. This is a good start</p>

Lourd
08-07-2010, 06:07 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wouldn't you, and every other healer, have more to do if half of your spells, your debuffs and punishment spells, weren't cured off the instant you cast them? </p></blockquote><p>The only thing I would want to do is choke you right now for even considering the possibility of removing a large portion of my class's role in group pvp. </p><p>So as to not derail, remove toughness and establish a fame system that involves real rewards and consequences for participation. This is a good start</p></blockquote><p>That's funny because that's exactly what being able to chain cure off detriments does to everyone in this game -- removes a large portion of their classes role in group pvp.   It's not all about you, you know.</p>

PeaSy1
08-07-2010, 06:10 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wouldn't you, and every other healer, have more to do if half of your spells, your debuffs and punishment spells, weren't cured off the instant you cast them? </p></blockquote><p>The only thing I would want to do is choke you right now for even considering the possibility of removing a large portion of my class's role in group pvp. </p><p>So as to not derail, remove<strong>/fix </strong>toughness and <strong>establish a fame system that involves real rewards and consequences for participation.</strong> This is a good start</p></blockquote><p>pretty much =/</p>

PeaSy1
08-07-2010, 06:11 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wouldn't you, and every other healer, have more to do if half of your spells, your debuffs and punishment spells, weren't cured off the instant you cast them? </p></blockquote><p>The only thing I would want to do is choke you right now for even considering the possibility of removing a large portion of my class's role in group pvp. </p><p>So as to not derail, remove toughness and establish a fame system that involves real rewards and consequences for participation. This is a good start</p></blockquote><p>That's funny because that's exactly what being able to chain cure off detriments does to everyone in this game -- removes a large portion of their classes role in group pvp.   It's not all about you, you know.</p></blockquote><p>Im beginning to believe ur being sarcastic....</p>

Aiyana
08-07-2010, 06:27 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wouldn't you, and every other healer, have more to do if half of your spells, your debuffs and punishment spells, weren't cured off the instant you cast them? </p></blockquote><p>The only thing I would want to do is choke you right now for even considering the possibility of removing a large portion of my class's role in group pvp. </p><p>So as to not derail, remove toughness and establish a fame system that involves real rewards and consequences for participation. This is a good start</p></blockquote><p>That's funny because that's exactly what being able to chain cure off detriments does to everyone in this game -- removes a large portion of their classes role in group pvp.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">It's not all about you, you know.</span></p></blockquote><p>I could argue the red text but it's not relevant to the topic.  If you think that being able to stack 10-20 detrimentals per person on a group is acceptable strategy in pvp then we will never come to an understanding on this.  I would recommend a more skillfull use of your actual abilities such as locking down the healers with pressure and control so that they are unable to cure due to your actual performance, not nerfing a class to oblivion so that you can just spam all your spells and see who dies first. Removing toughness in turn adds more pressure on healers, which means less cures, which leads to getting more use out of your spells. Honestly pvp should require more than just banging your head on the keyboard and seeing results.</p>

Lourd
08-07-2010, 06:54 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wouldn't you, and every other healer, have more to do if half of your spells, your debuffs and punishment spells, weren't cured off the instant you cast them? </p></blockquote><p>The only thing I would want to do is choke you right now for even considering the possibility of removing a large portion of my class's role in group pvp. </p><p>So as to not derail, remove toughness and establish a fame system that involves real rewards and consequences for participation. This is a good start</p></blockquote><p>That's funny because that's exactly what being able to chain cure off detriments does to everyone in this game -- removes a large portion of their classes role in group pvp.   <span style="color: #ff0000;">It's not all about you, you know.</span></p></blockquote><p>I could argue the red text but it's not relevant to the topic.  If you think that being able to stack 10-20 detrimentals per person on a group is acceptable strategy in pvp then we will never come to an understanding on this.  I would recommend a more skillfull use of your actual abilities such as locking down the healers with pressure and control so that they are unable to cure due to your actual performance, not nerfing a class to oblivion so that you can just spam all your spells and see who dies first. Removing toughness in turn adds more pressure on healers, which means less cures, which leads to getting more use out of your spells. Honestly pvp should require more than just banging your head on the keyboard and seeing results.</p></blockquote><p>How are we suppose to lock down a healer with control when crowd control spells are instantly cured off?   </p><p>I don't want to nerf healers into oblivion. I said I think they should remove or reduce the effectiveness of cures in pvp, which might just mean increasing the recast of cures to 5-10 seconds. </p><p>I agree that pvp should require more than just mashing the cure button and seeing the results.  That's why I want them to bring back crowd control. Fear this person, mezz that one, stifle the healer. That's gotta be more thoughtful than dogpiling the healer with 8 people.</p>

Putyo
08-07-2010, 01:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>How are we suppose to lock down a healer with control when crowd control spells are instantly cured off?   </p><p>I don't want to nerf healers into oblivion. I said I think they should remove or reduce the effectiveness of cures in pvp, which might just mean increasing the recast of cures to 5-10 seconds. </p><p>I agree that pvp should require more than just mashing the cure button and seeing the results.  That's why I want them to bring back crowd control. Fear this person, mezz that one, stifle the healer. That's gotta be more thoughtful than dogpiling the healer with 8 people.</p></blockquote><p>Please stop posting as your ideas are beyond terrible.</p><p>Remove toughness and problems like this would go away, they already tried to nerf curing during EoF and it was TERRIBLE.</p>

convict
08-07-2010, 04:28 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello,</p><p>After reading your feedback it is a common theme that Toughness needs to be evaluated.  We will go over the numbers and adjust them as needed to make sure we reach the survivability that is intended.  We will make sure to include AA, Class abilities and the procs currently available in the equation.   </p><p>We are aware of the various changes that need to be made to improve overall fun in our PvP servers and we appreciate your feedback on each topic.   At this time, I cannot say when these changes will go live.   What I can say is that our team is committed to making positive changes for our PvP servers.     </p><p>Thank you!</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Will these changes happen before/after the new expansion, or should we wait to buy it and see if any pvp fixes happen at all?</p>

Verrie77
08-07-2010, 06:16 PM
<p>I would like to tell you that the proc on the left one is bugged.I have tested it many many times now and it just doesnt proc.THe right is abit cryptic...do you meen it will only proc on heatbased ? or will it actually proc on any spell?Either the text is wrong on Unity Band, or its bugged.I havnt bought the other one yet.I did a /bug on this btw.</p><p><img src="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj222/Nelfia/ringalvl60.jpg" width="713" height="773" /></p>

Peak
08-07-2010, 06:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Olihin should pick out a couple well known veteran PVPers to get legit ideas from. I'm sure there are a number of veteran players that might have even -posted- in this thread that would be happy to offer up suggestions for revitalizing PVP.</p><p>I understand that anyone can post their thoughts here already, but with all the random no named scrubs posting about how level locking is destroying PVP or about how "insert-class-here" just owned them and should be nerfed.. the meaningful posts tend to be lost in the crowd of crying.</p><p>Hell, I'd be happy to offer up my suggestions. I've played practically every class in PVP and I'm fairly well known. Or even just forget me, I'm sure Pudaan would offer his thoughts, or Heelo, or even Brokensword if you can manage to find him. Grab some of those people and get their thoughts. I'm pretty certain there won't be any "durrhurr give us back Barren Sky PVP" thoughts, even though that would be amazing, but actual good, logical, and definitely implementable ideas and solutions.</p><p>It's really frustrating to see good posts by well known players among idiotic posts by no name players, and then misinterpreted posts and bad changes in every update. For the most part, PVP in this game has gone absolutely downhill since around EOF and ROK. There have always been a number of good and thought out solutions to most problems presented but very few (if any) of them have ever been implemented. It's disappointing to see the feedback players are posting is still seemingly ignored.</p><p>Seriously, pick a few people and get your ideas from them. Communicate more with the playesr here. You say you have some changes in mind *big changes* coming soon, but you can't say anything? Even if it's not a guarantee at least toss out the ideas that are on the table so you can get more feedback. Tell us what you're considering from the feedback you received. Yeah, it will open you up to more flaming and attacks but you know what, you'll get all of that no matter what you do. Enough bullsh^t of being surprised GU after GU as PVP deteriorates more and more.</p><p>TL;DR-> Take the feedback from the known players seriously, because quite frankly some random scrub posting their huge list of terrible ideas while rocking 1K PVP kills doesn't have sh^t on a number of other people who have posted with 30K, 40K, or even 50-60K PVP kills, and I certainly wouldn't trust them for ideas because with 1K PVP kills there is no way they are that good, and their ideas will reflect that.</p></blockquote><p>This would be a huge step forward but i dont know what kinda criteria you could use to pick these players.</p><p>I remember doing this for an rts game i used to play back in the day and they pulled all the strat mods (like class mods in this case) and brought them together with a EA coder to smooth out the game in topic.</p></blockquote><p>That's kind of what I had in mind.</p><p>Brokensword made a post probably two years ago with a list of all the changes they thought were needed in PVP, compiled from talking to Broncas and other well known PVPers. It was mostly met with agreement although some critiques were made. A lot of those changes were implemented and were good for the game.</p><p>But having these well known PVPers together with Olihin or another dev so the good ideas actually get listened to would be a great thing.</p>

Ralpmet
08-07-2010, 07:10 PM
<p>The only time I have an issue with my detrimentals being cured is on my coercer, and that's an issue because 1 group cure takes away a majority of the reactives I've placed to do a majority of my damage.</p><p>You don't see me whining though, stack crappy debuffs first so they get cured first, that's what I do. Sure, it only takes 2-3 seconds to cure what's left over after the initial cure but at least then you've gotten an extra 2-3 seconds out of your best detrimentals.</p><p>The current issues with pvp have been stated over and over to death, this forum is littered with them, instead of constantly posting ideas into new threads maybe you should keep old ones alive, the ideas separate, so we can maybe start to see some change around here. No one wants to read 1 big wall of text that has 100 changes in it, but 100 smaller bits is much more manageable. (edit) As far as implementation goes, it's easier to take a chunk out of 100 smalls changes then a chunk out of 1 big wall of text that ties all the changes together in some way when in reality a majority of the changes that need to be made are unrelated changes.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
08-08-2010, 01:25 AM
<p><cite>Verrie77 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would like to tell you that the proc on the left one is bugged.I have tested it many many times now and it just doesnt proc.THe right is abit cryptic...do you meen it will only proc on heatbased ? or will it actually proc on any spell?Either the text is wrong on Unity Band, or its bugged.I havnt bought the other one yet.I did a /bug on this btw.</p><p><img src="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj222/Nelfia/ringalvl60.jpg" width="713" height="773" /></p></blockquote><p>Unity Band dont seam to proc on any spell atleast. Seams bugged.</p>

PeaSy1
08-08-2010, 04:19 AM
think how ruff it would be killing a kiting class without the ability to cure snares....its what made fettering soo ridiculous when it was incurable.

Lourd
08-08-2010, 05:51 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>How are we suppose to lock down a healer with control when crowd control spells are instantly cured off?   </p><p>I don't want to nerf healers into oblivion. I said I think they should remove or reduce the effectiveness of cures in pvp, which might just mean increasing the recast of cures to 5-10 seconds. </p><p>I agree that pvp should require more than just mashing the cure button and seeing the results.  That's why I want them to bring back crowd control. Fear this person, mezz that one, stifle the healer. That's gotta be more thoughtful than dogpiling the healer with 8 people.</p></blockquote><p>Please stop posting as your ideas are beyond terrible.</p><p>Remove toughness and problems like this would go away, they already tried to nerf curing during EoF and it was TERRIBLE.</p></blockquote><p>Do you have something to add to the discussion? Ever? </p><p>edit: More thoughts:</p><p>Problems in pvp</p><p>1) Faction <strong>population</strong> imblances on Nagafen.  There are way more Qeynos people than Freeport, making it very hard to Freeport people to get in a fair fight without being mobbed to death by Qeynos. This is most obvious in warfields.</p><p>    There's not a lot the Devs can do about population.  They could incentivize people to come over to Freeport by disabling the loss of master spells when betraying over.  But that could make things better or worse, if even more people run over to Qeynos.</p><p><strong>2)  Gear</strong> has made our characters too powerful in both pvp and pve. The preponderance of defensive/offensive procs and raw ability increaser, like potency, has made some classes into one man armies.  And it has diminished the role of other classes, such as enchanters and bards. Who needs enchanter/bard buffs now that you get it all from gear?</p><p>     Simply removing toughness won't fix this problem.  Doing so will lead to two problems: </p><p>     1) Too much pvp damage.   Without toughness, people are going to be exploding on impact because of all the potency, crit bonus, flurry, reuse and cast time reduction they added this expansion.</p><p>     2) If you get rid of toughness, then we're back to pve raid gear being the best thing to wear in pvp and pve.  Better pve gear comes into this game far, far more frequently than pvp gear.   Even now there are things in pve you can get that are far better than anything you can gear in pvp.  For example:</p><p><img src="http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8054/opstuff.jpg" width="305" height="511" /></p><p>Nice charm. Lets you backpeddle in pvp and kill some classes (like the lowly guardian and brawlers) without getting hit.</p><p><img src="http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8488/bowsw.jpg" width="924" height="670" /></p><p>Here we have two nice top end pve bows and the pvp bow. I'm assuming the 3282 dot from the underfoot bow is a typo, but even so, they're both a hell of a lot nicer than the pvp bow on the right. The stats on the Rohen Theer bow suck, but the upgraded symphonic allure proc more than makes up for it.</p><p><img src="http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9553/stuffch.jpg" /></p><p>Here's a comparison of the 1 hander pvp scout sword vs some other sword from the palace raid. I'd rather have the crit bonus and potency than the 15 toughness and worthless 5 crit chance.   The proc off the pve sword is almost three times as high and it's encounter wide. The proc will even out dps one of my warlocks best spells because procs have never seemed to be affected by spell resist mitigation. Go figure. Then again apocalypse gets cured off the second after I cast it anyway.</p><p>I'm not saying people should be able to get the best gear in the game in pvp. I'm just saying that without toughness, no one who has raid gear will will be wearing pvp gear.   </p><p><strong>3)  Cures</strong>.   Too much curing.   The ability to chain cure detriments leaves classes that rely on dots/reactives and crowd control on the bench in group pvp. The more healers you have in a group, the worst this  problem gets.   There are plenty of abilities now and items make one temporarily immune to crowd control, for example:</p><p><img src="http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7422/brutalinspiration.jpg" /><img src="http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2373/immunization.jpg" /></p><p><img src="http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8074/auraofthecrusader.jpg" width="346" height="476" /><img src="http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4019/charms.jpg" /></p><p>That should be more than enough anti crowd control for anyone.</p>

BlueEternal
08-08-2010, 07:33 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>think how ruff it would be killing a kiting class without the ability to cure snares....its what made fettering soo ridiculous when it was incurable.</blockquote><p>Speaking of fettering..why did they nerf all other snares but that remains 30+ seconds?</p>

Ralpmet
08-08-2010, 11:15 AM
<p>It lasts 18 seconds.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
08-08-2010, 11:48 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>How are we suppose to lock down a healer with control when crowd control spells are instantly cured off?   </p><p>I don't want to nerf healers into oblivion. I said I think they should remove or reduce the effectiveness of cures in pvp, which might just mean increasing the recast of cures to 5-10 seconds. </p><p>I agree that pvp should require more than just mashing the cure button and seeing the results.  That's why I want them to bring back crowd control. Fear this person, mezz that one, stifle the healer. That's gotta be more thoughtful than dogpiling the healer with 8 people.</p></blockquote><p>Please stop posting as your ideas are beyond terrible.</p><p>Remove toughness and problems like this would go away, they already tried to nerf curing during EoF and it was TERRIBLE.</p></blockquote><p>Do you have something to add to the discussion? Ever? </p><p>edit: More thoughts:</p><p>Problems in pvp</p><p>1) Faction <strong>population</strong> imblances on Nagafen.  There are way more Qeynos people than Freeport, making it very hard to Freeport people to get in a fair fight without being mobbed to death by Qeynos. This is most obvious in warfields.</p><p>    There's not a lot the Devs can do about population.  They could incentivize people to come over to Freeport by disabling the loss of master spells when betraying over.  But that could make things better or worse, if even more people run over to Qeynos.</p><p><strong>2)  Gear</strong> has made our characters too powerful in both pvp and pve. The preponderance of defensive/offensive procs and raw ability increaser, like potency, has made some classes into one man armies.  And it has diminished the role of other classes, such as enchanters and bards. Who needs enchanter/bard buffs now that you get it all from gear?</p><p>     Simply removing toughness won't fix this problem.  Doing so will lead to two problems: </p><p>     1) Too much pvp damage.   Without toughness, people are going to be exploding on impact because of all the potency, crit bonus, flurry, reuse and cast time reduction they added this expansion.</p><p>     2) If you get rid of toughness, then we're back to pve raid gear being the best thing to wear in pvp and pve.  Better pve gear comes into this game far, far more frequently than pvp gear.   Even now there are things in pve you can get that are far better than anything you can gear in pvp.  For example:</p><p><img src="http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8054/opstuff.jpg" width="305" height="511" /></p><p>Nice charm. Lets you backpeddle in pvp and kill some classes (like the lowly guardian and brawlers) without getting hit.</p><p><img src="http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8488/bowsw.jpg" width="924" height="670" /></p><p>Here we have two nice top end pve bows and the pvp bow. I'm assuming the 3282 dot from the underfoot bow is a typo, but even so, they're both a hell of a lot nicer than the pvp bow on the right. The stats on the Rohen Theer bow suck, but the upgraded symphonic allure proc more than makes up for it.</p><p><img src="http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9553/stuffch.jpg" /></p><p>Here's a comparison of the 1 hander pvp scout sword vs some other sword from the palace raid. I'd rather have the crit bonus and potency than the 15 toughness and worthless 5 crit chance.   The proc off the pve sword is almost three times as high and it's encounter wide. The proc will even out dps one of my warlocks best spells because procs have never seemed to be affected by spell resist mitigation. Go figure. Then again apocalypse gets cured off the second after I cast it anyway.</p><p>I'm not saying people should be able to get the best gear in the game in pvp. I'm just saying that without toughness, no one who has raid gear will will be wearing pvp gear.   </p><p><strong>3)  Cures</strong>.   Too much curing.   The ability to chain cure detriments leaves classes that rely on dots/reactives and crowd control on the bench in group pvp. The more healers you have in a group, the worst this  problem gets.   There are plenty of abilities now and items make one temporarily immune to crowd control, for example:</p><p><img src="http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7422/brutalinspiration.jpg" /><img src="http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2373/immunization.jpg" /></p><p><img src="http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8074/auraofthecrusader.jpg" width="346" height="476" /><img src="http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4019/charms.jpg" /></p><p>That should be more than enough anti crowd control for anyone.</p></blockquote><p>lol psoting 3 immunity spells from 3 difffrent classes... and the curing is fine, thoughness is the problem.</p>

PeaSy1
08-08-2010, 12:33 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>think how ruff it would be killing a kiting class without the ability to cure snares....its what made fettering soo ridiculous when it was incurable.</blockquote><p>Speaking of fettering..why did they nerf all other snares but that remains 30+ seconds?</p></blockquote><p>I think it is lower than that but ranger can get it up higher with aa. </p>

Neskonlith
08-08-2010, 12:44 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Make PVP Fabled gear the new benchmark with a fast diminishing returns above it so that raid gear does not trivialize pvp encounters.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP gear remains the greatly desired item to earn, while bluebie raid gear will be slightly more powerful without being overpowered.</span></p>

PeaSy1
08-08-2010, 02:33 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>How are we suppose to lock down a healer with control when crowd control spells are instantly cured off?   </p><p>I don't want to nerf healers into oblivion. I said I think they should remove or reduce the effectiveness of cures in pvp, which might just mean increasing the recast of cures to 5-10 seconds. </p><p>I agree that pvp should require more than just mashing the cure button and seeing the results.  That's why I want them to bring back crowd control. Fear this person, mezz that one, stifle the healer. That's gotta be more thoughtful than dogpiling the healer with 8 people.</p></blockquote><p>Please stop posting as your ideas are beyond terrible.</p><p>Remove toughness and problems like this would go away, they already tried to nerf curing during EoF and it was TERRIBLE.</p></blockquote><p>Do you have something to add to the discussion? Ever? </p><p>edit: More thoughts:</p><p>Problems in pvp</p><p>1) Faction <strong>population</strong> imblances on Nagafen.  There are way more Qeynos people than Freeport, making it very hard to Freeport people to get in a fair fight without being mobbed to death by Qeynos. This is most obvious in warfields.</p><p>    There's not a lot the Devs can do about population.  They could incentivize people to come over to Freeport by disabling the loss of master spells when betraying over.  But that could make things better or worse, if even more people run over to Qeynos.</p><p><strong>2)  Gear</strong> has made our characters too powerful in both pvp and pve. The preponderance of defensive/offensive procs and raw ability increaser, like potency, has made some classes into one man armies.  And it has diminished the role of other classes, such as enchanters and bards. Who needs enchanter/bard buffs now that you get it all from gear?</p><p>     Simply removing toughness won't fix this problem.  Doing so will lead to two problems: </p><p>     1) Too much pvp damage.   Without toughness, people are going to be exploding on impact because of all the potency, crit bonus, flurry, reuse and cast time reduction they added this expansion.</p><p>     2) If you get rid of toughness, then we're back to pve raid gear being the best thing to wear in pvp and pve.  Better pve gear comes into this game far, far more frequently than pvp gear.   Even now there are things in pve you can get that are far better than anything you can gear in pvp.  For example:</p><p><img src="http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8054/opstuff.jpg" width="305" height="511" /></p><p>Nice charm. Lets you backpeddle in pvp and kill some classes (like the lowly guardian and brawlers) without getting hit.</p></blockquote><p>if only tanks could get somethin similar <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p><img src="http://i37.tinypic.com/2lsuoo6.jpg" width="1436" height="822" /></p>

Putyo
08-08-2010, 05:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>Please stop posting as your ideas are beyond terrible.</p><p>Remove toughness and problems like this would go away, they already tried to nerf curing during EoF and it was TERRIBLE.</p></blockquote><p>Do you have something to add to the discussion? Ever? </p></blockquote><p>That gear you posted has nothing to do with anything. That raid gear is fine and if weapons that take a day or two to get are better then end game pve weapons then something is wrong, the PvP armor already blows PvE gear out of the water because of toughness alone, again stupid mechanic. Not encouraging people to see all the content just because all they do is PvP is lame and is leading to the ridiculious population decline on all servers, we had a perfectly working system of Pvp gear being a good stepping stone into raiding if you really wanted to be top of your class before SF, now we have everyone wearing the same exact stuff because they dont want to get 1 shot.</p><p>Pvp gear is good for casuals and people looking to get into raiding, it should not be required to pvp.</p><p>Remove toughness or scale it back so it is at least 70% less effective and allow blue adornments on every piece of gear over legendary.</p><p>Your horrible ideas about nerfing abilities and nerfing curing are...horrible, it takes way more work to re-do every spell for pvp then to remove the core problem...to much survivability. Once again, nerfed curing in EoF was absolutely terrible, I hope we never go back to that, sorry you cant kill people without your stuns and apoc.</p>

Toxicz
08-08-2010, 05:42 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>How are we suppose to lock down a healer with control when crowd control spells are instantly cured off?   </p><p>I don't want to nerf healers into oblivion. I said I think they should remove or reduce the effectiveness of cures in pvp, which might just mean increasing the recast of cures to 5-10 seconds. </p><p>I agree that pvp should require more than just mashing the cure button and seeing the results.  That's why I want them to bring back crowd control. Fear this person, mezz that one, stifle the healer. That's gotta be more thoughtful than dogpiling the healer with 8 people.</p></blockquote><p>Please stop posting as your ideas are beyond terrible.</p><p>Remove toughness and problems like this would go away, they already tried to nerf curing during EoF and it was TERRIBLE.</p></blockquote><p>Do you have something to add to the discussion? Ever? </p><p>edit: More thoughts:</p><p>Problems in pvp</p><p>1) Faction <strong>population</strong> imblances on Nagafen.  There are way more Qeynos people than Freeport, making it very hard to Freeport people to get in a fair fight without being mobbed to death by Qeynos. This is most obvious in warfields.</p><p>    There's not a lot the Devs can do about population.  They could incentivize people to come over to Freeport by disabling the loss of master spells when betraying over.  But that could make things better or worse, if even more people run over to Qeynos.</p><p><strong>2)  Gear</strong> has made our characters too powerful in both pvp and pve. The preponderance of defensive/offensive procs and raw ability increaser, like potency, has made some classes into one man armies.  And it has diminished the role of other classes, such as enchanters and bards. Who needs enchanter/bard buffs now that you get it all from gear?</p><p>     Simply removing toughness won't fix this problem.  Doing so will lead to two problems: </p><p>     1) Too much pvp damage.   Without toughness, people are going to be exploding on impact because of all the potency, crit bonus, flurry, reuse and cast time reduction they added this expansion.</p><p>     2) If you get rid of toughness, then we're back to pve raid gear being the best thing to wear in pvp and pve.  Better pve gear comes into this game far, far more frequently than pvp gear.   Even now there are things in pve you can get that are far better than anything you can gear in pvp.  For example:</p><p><img src="http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8054/opstuff.jpg" width="305" height="511" /></p><p>Nice charm. Lets you backpeddle in pvp and kill some classes (like the lowly guardian and brawlers) without getting hit.</p><p><img src="http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8488/bowsw.jpg" width="924" height="670" /></p><p>Here we have two nice top end pve bows and the pvp bow. I'm assuming the 3282 dot from the underfoot bow is a typo, but even so, they're both a hell of a lot nicer than the pvp bow on the right. The stats on the Rohen Theer bow suck, but the upgraded symphonic allure proc more than makes up for it.</p><p><img src="http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9553/stuffch.jpg" /></p><p>Here's a comparison of the 1 hander pvp scout sword vs some other sword from the palace raid. I'd rather have the crit bonus and potency than the 15 toughness and worthless 5 crit chance.   The proc off the pve sword is almost three times as high and it's encounter wide. The proc will even out dps one of my warlocks best spells because procs have never seemed to be affected by spell resist mitigation. Go figure. Then again apocalypse gets cured off the second after I cast it anyway.</p><p>I'm not saying people should be able to get the best gear in the game in pvp. I'm just saying that without toughness, no one who has raid gear will will be wearing pvp gear.   </p><p><strong>3)  Cures</strong>.   Too much curing.   The ability to chain cure detriments leaves classes that rely on dots/reactives and crowd control on the bench in group pvp. The more healers you have in a group, th<img src="http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8074/auraofthecrusader.jpg" width="346" height="476" /><img src="http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4019/charms.jpg" /></p></blockquote><p>Ok from everything I've seen on this thread posted by you is: I don't have THIS item or THIS ability, so I think its OP and needs to be given to me or taken away from others. I'll be honest I've never seen you in game, I've never seen you pvp, I've never seen your name until you starting going on this little cure rant.</p><p>You want the reach charm removed because its "OP", but in fact its available to everyone and every class. You just have to put the time into getting items that are good, if you don't want too, thats your own fault no one else.</p><p>The weapons you linked are good weapons no doubt, but why should the pvp weapons be as good when it takes no skill what so ever to zerg for tokens? Raiding some of the harder mobs that drop these weapons takes some intelligence and skill, and if you can't get them because you lack one of the two or both, is your own fault. This goes along with the " I can't get this, so can you please give it to me for free, thank you."</p><p>And now for the cures and the makes caster immune items/abilities. Everyone of those items or abilities have been in the game for at least 1 expansion now expect for the runed victims skull, so why is it such a big deal to you now. There apart of the class for a reason, and changing them would take WAY more time than it would to fix the REAL problem.</p><p>so to end this rant, everything you post is completely ignoring the REAL problem which is, Toughness and all the mitigation procs on pvp gear. Ohilin, Please I'm begging you please take Peak's idea about players who are known or players who have 30k + kills and ask them for ideas or use them for testing purposes on your ideas for pvp.</p>

Neskonlith
08-08-2010, 06:23 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So we have raiders asking for Olihin to allow bluebie raid drops to trivialize pvp once again, by removing survivability off pvp gear while leaving raid gear untouched.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why should <em>bluebie</em> gear be godmode in pvp?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">SOE should only reduce/remove Toughness while they also copy + paste the adjusted pvp gear template onto every raid piece, so that pve raid drops can still trivialize pve, but do not overwhelm pvp.</span></p>

PeaSy1
08-08-2010, 06:39 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok from everything I've seen on this thread posted by you is: I don't have THIS item or THIS ability, so I think its OP and needs to be given to me or taken away from others. I'll be honest I've never seen you in game, I've never seen you pvp, I've never seen your name until you starting going on this little cure rant.</p><p>You want the reach charm removed because its "OP", but in fact its available to everyone and every class. You just have to put the time into getting items that are good, if you don't want too, thats your own fault no one else.</p><p>The weapons you linked are good weapons no doubt, but why should the pvp weapons be as good when it takes no skill what so ever to zerg for tokens? Raiding some of the harder mobs that drop these weapons takes some intelligence and skill, and if you can't get them because you lack one of the two or both, is your own fault. This goes along with the " I can't get this, so can you please give it to me for free, thank you."</p><p>And now for the cures and the makes caster immune items/abilities. Everyone of those items or abilities have been in the game for at least 1 expansion now expect for the runed victims skull, so why is it such a big deal to you now. There apart of the class for a reason, and changing them would take WAY more time than it would to fix the REAL problem.</p><p>so to end this rant, everything you post is completely ignoring the REAL problem which is, Toughness and all the mitigation procs on pvp gear. Ohilin, Please I'm begging you please take Peak's idea about players who are known or players who have 30k + kills and ask them for ideas or use them for testing purposes on your ideas for pvp.</p></blockquote><p>Pvp kills are subjective though so that would be a terrible way of going about looking for people to improve the state of pvp (ie bloated kills from zerg mashing in rok and tso/lavastorm) But getting like Brokensword, Broncas, and probably Peak being people that know the ends and outs of most aspects of the game itself. </p>

Peak
08-08-2010, 08:12 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So we have raiders asking for Olihin to allow bluebie raid drops to trivialize pvp once again, by removing survivability off pvp gear while leaving raid gear untouched.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why should <em>bluebie</em> gear be godmode in pvp?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">SOE should only reduce/remove Toughness while they also copy + paste the adjusted pvp gear template onto every raid piece, so that pve raid drops can still trivialize pve, but do not overwhelm pvp.</span></p></blockquote><p>Getting PVP gear takes absolutely no effort. I don't even have high end raid gear on my main, and I'm all for getting rid of Toughness. Killing some of the harder mode content actually takes some coordination compared to rolling your face across the keyboard in the middle of a PVP fight.</p><p>Oddly enough, things have changed since TSO and ROK. You don't have only a couple guilds killing the high end content. You have several guilds on both factions killing high end content, and loot rights being sold. You have absolutely no excuse not to be able to kill this content or even get the gear without raiding except for the "I'm lazy, hand me everything handed to me" excuse. Maybe if you stopped being so lazy you'd actually be able to compete in PVP instead of getting your face smashed in every time you step outside the city gates.</p><p>The majority of the posts made on this forum are: "Nerf this", "Give me this item for free", "Let me skip progression and have new BG sets for nothing", "Make it so my mastercrafted toon doesn't die in half a second". The funny part is a lot of the complaints posted are easily avoided by simply using your mind for once and actually making intelligent decisions for your toon and using everything available to you.</p>

Neskonlith
08-08-2010, 09:26 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Killing some of the harder mode content actually takes some coordination compared to rolling your face across the keyboard in the middle of a PVP fight.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's nice!  SOE should keep bluebie raid gear templates limited to trivializing PVE encounters, as that is reward sufficient for skilled PVE farming.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps raid gear could even have a negative Toughness stat attached to their PVP Template.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP fabled should be the best for PVP on a PVP server.</span></p>

Peak
08-08-2010, 11:17 PM
<p>Make getting PVP gear actually a tiny bit challenging and I might agree with you.</p><p>Half of the idiots that had their PVP gear in TSO got it from dock zerging.Actually, that's how it is now as well. Except with Warfields instead by either zerging or AFKing.</p><p>Every ret^rd and their brother shouldn't be able to walk around with a full set of PVP gear when they have absolutely no skill in PVP at all. PVP gear should be earned, not freely given out like it basically is now.</p>

Crismorn
08-09-2010, 12:42 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok from everything I've seen on this thread posted by you is: I don't have THIS item or THIS ability, so I think its OP and needs to be given to me or taken away from others. I'll be honest I've never seen you in game, I've never seen you pvp, I've never seen your name until you starting going on this little cure rant.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>You want the reach charm removed because its "OP", but in fact its available to everyone and every class. </strong></span>You just have to put the time into getting items that are good, if you don't want too, thats your own fault no one else.</p><p>The weapons you linked are good weapons no doubt, but why should the pvp weapons be as good when it takes no skill what so ever to zerg for tokens? Raiding some of the harder mobs that drop these weapons takes some intelligence and skill, and if you can't get them because you lack one of the two or both, is your own fault. This goes along with the " I can't get this, so can you please give it to me for free, thank you."</p><p>And now for the cures and the makes caster immune items/abilities. Everyone of those items or abilities have been in the game for at least 1 expansion now expect for the runed victims skull, so why is it such a big deal to you now. There apart of the class for a reason, and changing them would take WAY more time than it would to fix the REAL problem.</p><p>so to end this rant, everything you post is completely ignoring the REAL problem which is, Toughness and all the mitigation procs on pvp gear. Ohilin, Please I'm begging you please take Peak's idea about players who are known or players who have 30k + kills and ask them for ideas or use them for testing purposes on your ideas for pvp.</p></blockquote><p>Only scouts can get a reach charm for auto attack</p>

Putyo
08-09-2010, 12:43 AM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Killing some of the harder mode content actually takes some coordination compared to rolling your face across the keyboard in the middle of a PVP fight.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That's nice!  SOE should keep bluebie raid gear templates limited to trivializing PVE encounters, as that is reward sufficient for skilled PVE farming.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps raid gear could even have a negative Toughness stat attached to their PVP Template.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP fabled should be the best for PVP on a PVP server.</span></p></blockquote><p>Putting a special stat on pvp gear just to make it the best is idiotic. Forcing me to wear pvp gear in pvp is the equivlant of making me take off my raid gear so i can go kill stuff in a group instance.</p><p>Besides a few items (mostly jewerly, heal proc items) I should not have to have an entire 2nd set of gear to go pvp, espacially when it took me a few weeks to get an ENTIRE set of the "best" pvp gear in game. What is the point of keep playing? You already maxed your character out in under a month.</p><p>Remove toughness, up crit mit blue adorns, put blue adorns on everything legendary+</p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 02:18 AM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok from everything I've seen on this thread posted by you is: I don't have THIS item or THIS ability, so I think its OP and needs to be given to me or taken away from others. I'll be honest I've never seen you in game, I've never seen you pvp, I've never seen your name until you starting going on this little cure rant.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>You want the reach charm removed because its "OP", but in fact its available to everyone and every class. </strong></span>You just have to put the time into getting items that are good, if you don't want too, thats your own fault no one else.</p><p>The weapons you linked are good weapons no doubt, but why should the pvp weapons be as good when it takes no skill what so ever to zerg for tokens? Raiding some of the harder mobs that drop these weapons takes some intelligence and skill, and if you can't get them because you lack one of the two or both, is your own fault. This goes along with the " I can't get this, so can you please give it to me for free, thank you."</p><p>And now for the cures and the makes caster immune items/abilities. Everyone of those items or abilities have been in the game for at least 1 expansion now expect for the runed victims skull, so why is it such a big deal to you now. There apart of the class for a reason, and changing them would take WAY more time than it would to fix the REAL problem.</p><p>so to end this rant, everything you post is completely ignoring the REAL problem which is, Toughness and all the mitigation procs on pvp gear. Ohilin, Please I'm begging you please take Peak's idea about players who are known or players who have 30k + kills and ask them for ideas or use them for testing purposes on your ideas for pvp.</p></blockquote><p>Only scouts can get a reach charm for auto attack</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2item=514e0f3c75867cd1e25cdf971f5f4a56" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.zam.com/db/item.html?eq2...25cdf971f5f4a56</a></p><p>Reads the same as the scout charm aside from the poison trigger chance => damage prevention. How do fighters not have it?The mage and healer charms also give increased range, but it would only give you about 2-4 meters would which do absolutely nothing for PVP.</p>

Crismorn
08-09-2010, 04:39 AM
<p>My Inq needs reach : (</p>

Lourd
08-09-2010, 11:31 AM
<p>The screenshots about the immunity temps weren't complaints about them. I listed those three examples (and there are lots of other examples, like sanctuary  and even cheap potions and signets) to point out that such items and abilities are more than enough to deal with crowd control.  It's bad for the game when healers are able to keep off every single incoming detriment, all of the time.</p><p>As far as the reach charms go and the weapons, it's not about me whining because I don't have them. I'm saying that if you remove toughness, then no point in wearing the pvp gear anymore. Pve raid has better stats, procs, everything.  And new pve raid gear gets added into this game far, far more often than pvp gear, thus letting the gear gap between pver's and pvpers grow wider over time. </p><p>I know the Onyx people in this thread just want to amass the best raid gear possible and steamroll over lesser geared players like they have done since the days they were in Havoc, 'cause that's their idea of skill and good pvp.  But it's not mine.  I'd actually like some tactics and thought put back into this game.</p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 11:52 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know the Onyx people in this thread just want to amass the best raid gear possible and steamroll over lesser geared players like they have done since the days they were in Havoc, 'cause that's their idea of skill and good pvp.  But it's not mine.  I'd actually like some tactics and thought put back into this game.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not in Onyx. I was, at one point, but the toon I geared is long gone yet here I am still supporting and proposing the same changes. Man up, because you're on a PVP server. Stop being a little b!tch.</p>

max.power
08-09-2010, 01:23 PM
<p>Toughness:</p><p>Toughness is fine, especially in 1vs1 settings. Fights finally last longer than 2 seconds and you can - and have to - use more than just 3 to 4 abilities.</p><p>It only can get rediculous and boring if two equally built and geared groups clash together. But if you are honest to yourself and remember such fights in TSO: They weren't any different.</p><p>I think that Toughness shouldn't be handed out at the same amount for every class. Classes that already have some way of warding/reducing/healing damage shouldn't have access to the same damage reduction.</p><p>Only "well known PvPrs" should be heared:</p><p>[Removed for Content]?! In which way does a kill count in the 10k+ range have anything to do with the player's ability to judge what's good for this game? I'm not saying that all ideas from the top players are wrong, nor are those from "scrubs" with only 500 kills. But running around always in a stacked group with the best endgame raid gear (jewelry, weapons, charm items) should not automatically mean that you - and you alone - are entitled to be heared regarding changes for PvP.</p><p>Of course, people who are around since server launch have a broader spectrum of how PvP was and how it has evolved but still: SOE is well advised to listen to ALL players, not only to those handful of people who think it's their game. Remember that there are many different kinds of players on the PvP servers.</p>

Lourd
08-09-2010, 01:26 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know the Onyx people in this thread just want to amass the best raid gear possible and steamroll over lesser geared players like they have done since the days they were in Havoc, 'cause that's their idea of skill and good pvp.  But it's not mine.  I'd actually like some tactics and thought put back into this game.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not in Onyx. I was, at one point, but the toon I geared is long gone yet here I am still supporting and proposing the same changes. Man up, because you're on a PVP server. Stop being a little b!tch.</p></blockquote><p>Removing toughness and only removing toughness is not going to fix Qs outnumbering freeport 5 to 1, nor make enchanters and necros more than benchwarmers in group pvp, or keep the gear gap from exploding between the raiders and nonraiders. </p>

Neskonlith
08-09-2010, 02:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP fabled should be the best for PVP on a PVP server.</span> </p></blockquote><p>What is the point of keep playing? You already maxed your character out in under a month.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The point would be to PVP for the enjoyment of PVP.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">There are many players out there PVPing while in full gear, and they have obviously not quit because they have geared up - they are PVPing more often because they have gear which allows them to be competitive.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Removing Toughness without diminishing returns raid gear down to Fabled PVP gear levels would merely have raiders uncontested once again, with no hope of competition.</span></p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 02:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know the Onyx people in this thread just want to amass the best raid gear possible and steamroll over lesser geared players like they have done since the days they were in Havoc, 'cause that's their idea of skill and good pvp.  But it's not mine.  I'd actually like some tactics and thought put back into this game.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not in Onyx. I was, at one point, but the toon I geared is long gone yet here I am still supporting and proposing the same changes. Man up, because you're on a PVP server. Stop being a little b!tch.</p></blockquote><p>Removing toughness and only removing toughness is not going to fix Qs outnumbering freeport 5 to 1, nor make enchanters and necros more than benchwarmers in group pvp, or keep the gear gap from exploding between the raiders and nonraiders. </p></blockquote><p>A well played Enchanter would certainly be welcome in a group.Or a well played Necro for that matter.</p><p>But there are very few good Enchanters and Necros.</p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 02:55 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Only "well known PvPrs" should be heared:</p><p>[Removed for Content]?! In which way does a kill count in the 10k+ range have anything to do with the player's ability to judge what's good for this game? I'm not saying that all ideas from the top players are wrong, nor are those from "scrubs" with only 500 kills. But running around always in a stacked group with the best endgame raid gear (jewelry, weapons, charm items) should not automatically mean that you - and you alone - are entitled to be heared regarding changes for PvP.</p><p>Of course, people who are around since server launch have a broader spectrum of how PvP was and how it has evolved but still: SOE is well advised to listen to ALL players, not only to those handful of people who think it's their game. Remember that there are many different kinds of players on the PvP servers.</p></blockquote><p>It's not just having a kill count. People always told me I was the (or one of) best PVP illusionists there is. I know this game very well, and other people would back me up on that as well. I'm sure plenty of people would agree that Brokensword is the same way. Or Broncas. Or any number of other respected PVPers.</p><p>Just about every thread in this forum is full of terrible ideas from people I've never heard of. Crying about lowbie PVP, crying about high level PVP, crying about anything that seems unfair because someone else killed them for the 35th time. I did lowbie PVP. I did high level PVP. I've probably been owned 35 times in a row.</p><p>The issue is that Joe Scrub and five of his closest buddies are completely terrible and all post the same terrible thoughts, which ends up getting noticed by Olihin and eventually implemented. Or a number of terrible ideas are suggested and compiled into one ultra terrible idea which gets implemented.</p><p>Here is your all-star lineup: Me (Peak), Seliri, Broncas, Pudaan.I've played just about every class and participated in a lot of lowbie PVP when it was still popular. Seliri may have some unbalancing ideas, but that's why you'd have a couple people to work with. He knows the game well, has been playing it since Nagafen opened, and would be a vital asset to balancing low lvl PVP issues since he was locked there for like four years. Not to mention he doesn't raid (AFAIK) so could be a good asset for balancing PVP items as well. Broncas.. Need I say more? Pudaan as well has been PVPing since Nagafen opened in pretty much the best guilds of whatever time he was playing.</p><p>When you look at it, I've played just about every class, although focusing mostly on Mages/Healers. Seliri plays a Tank/Healer. Broncas plays a Tank/Healer. Pudaan primarily plays Scouts. All the class types are represented by players who are undeniably good at their classes.</p><p>Even if I wasn't included, this is really something SOE needs to do. Or Olihin at least. Get together with several known players (perhaps similar to a setup like I posted above, so you can have a wide variety of skill sets to work with) once a week or twice a week and figure out what needs to be done. I get that everyone wants to be heard, but like I said.. having Joe Scrub come in and toss out all his ideas which would add further limitations to PVP (rather than remove limitations, such as immunity) and have his ideas heard is just ridiculous. And I'm not saying stop posting your thoughts, because by all means you should, but wouldn't it be nice for Olihin (who is new to this job) to be able to ask some knowledgable players whether or not Joe Scrub's idea is good or just ridiculous?</p>

Lourd
08-09-2010, 03:23 PM
<p>Peak, I don't think basing pvping changes on logical fallacies like appeal to authority is going to make this game better.  What the 'well-respected' think about pvp is no more or less relevant than the 'scrubs'. An idea is an idea and should stand on its own merits, not on the popularity of the messenger.</p><p>And Pundaan?  His one idea is to scrap toughness and put blue pvp adorns on raid gear (or as he put it, on all gear above legendary).  I guess that way he can get all the benefits of pvp crit mit adorns and still enjoy combat/spell perks from his fat raid red adorns.  It's like he can't see passed being able to bully the non raiders.</p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 03:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And Pundaan?  His one idea is to scrap toughness and put blue pvp adorns on raid gear (or as he put it, on all gear above legendary).  I guess that way he can get all the benefits of pvp crit mit adorns and still enjoy combat/spell perks from his fat raid red adorns.  It's like he can't see passed being able to bully the non raiders.</p></blockquote><p>Scrapping Toughness is needed. Actually, scrapping PVP crit mit should happen as well. Crit mit being one stat worked fine in TSO, it can work fine still. I disliked crit mit to begin with, but with all the crit bonus available now it's necessary. And odds are, Pudaan can already bully the non-raiders so that's a moot point. His suggestion isn't just to benefit him.</p>

Neskonlith
08-09-2010, 03:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The issue is that Joe Scrub and five of his closest buddies are completely terrible and all post the same terrible thoughts, which ends up getting noticed by Olihin and eventually implemented. Or a number of terrible ideas are suggested and compiled into one ultra terrible idea which gets implemented.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You appear to be so wrapped in an imagined reputation that you unfairly overlook that all the "scrubby little people" you despise are the vast majority of this game.  Ultimately, money talks.  The majority who pay the most money are the ones to placate, not the squeaking of tiny cliques.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Even a hardcore PVP game like EVE maintains a narrow equipment spread between tech1 and tech3 in their PVP workhorse frigates - so that new players can become competitive in a reasonable timeframe while preventing game-killing godmode among vets - tech3 is cripplingly expensive to replace which is where their vet <em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">risk</span></em> steps in.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why are PVE raiders appearing so adamant in preventing any hope of PVP competition?</span></p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 03:51 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The issue is that Joe Scrub and five of his closest buddies are completely terrible and all post the same terrible thoughts, which ends up getting noticed by Olihin and eventually implemented. Or a number of terrible ideas are suggested and compiled into one ultra terrible idea which gets implemented.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You appear to be so wrapped in an imagined reputation that you unfairly overlook that all the "scrubby little people" you despise are the vast majority of this game.  Ultimately, money talks.  The majority who pay the most money are the ones to placate, not the squeaking of tiny cliques.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Even a hardcore PVP game like EVE maintains a narrow equipment spread between tech1 and tech3 in their PVP workhorse frigates - so that new players can become competitive in a reasonable timeframe while preventing game-killing godmode among vets - tech3 is cripplingly expensive to replace which is where their vet <em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">risk</span></em> steps in.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why are PVE raiders appearing so adamant in preventing any hope of PVP competition?</span></p></blockquote><p>I don't despise the scrubby players. What I do despise are the players that get ganked and immediately cry nerf on fifteen different items, effects, and mechanics. Why did the zone level ranges change in CL and Ant to 4 levels to begin with? Someone cried because they got owned by a level 22 at level 14. Why did permanent immunity get implemented? Because someone cried.</p><p>The changes that most PVPers are asking for nowadays were implemented because some noob decided to cry because he died on a PVP server.</p><p>And the funny part is talking about PVP competition. If we remove Toughness, there is no chance of people fighting raiders? People have been doing that for expansions and expansions now, and even succeeding. TSO PVP armor was copy/paste of TSO raid armor, except with better effects in a lot of cases. ROK armor sucked terribly in most cases, but EOF PVP armor was comparable to EOF raid armor.</p><p>PVP gear is not always terrible compared to PVE gear. But why give out any really good PVP pieces when the writ system works as it does now? I can literally roll my face across my keyboard with a writ in the middle of a warfield and get a piece of gear in a day. There is no challenge in getting PVP gear and there hasn't been since writs first came out.</p><p>And I certainly hope you weren't including Pudaan, or me, or Broncas, or any of those 'raiders' you despise as simply PVE raiders when no doubt we've all amassed far more kills than you have.</p>

Neskonlith
08-09-2010, 04:15 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If we remove Toughness, there is no chance of people fighting raiders? People have been doing that for expansions and expansions now, and even succeeding.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Previous PVE gear* was not nearly as OP as the current expansion allows.  Why should PVE encounter procs be allowed unrestrained in PVP when PVP rewards have little or nothing comparable?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP fabled is where the PVP benchmark should be set, and diminishing PVP returns applied to PVE equipment above that limit.</span></p><p>*excluding Avatar gear - I was intending to refer back to earlier normal raid drops and how they weren't as bloated as they are now.</p>

plavem_davem
08-09-2010, 04:19 PM
<p>Im a vet prolly around before some of you guys.</p><p>I don't see why you are crying about the armor sets. It was a great idea.</p><p>Look at it like this. I spend 5 hours a night raiding. I get lets say a piece of loot a night. This helps me to survive longer aganist aoe's while maximizing my dps.</p><p>Then I go an spend 5 hours a night pvping and get one piece of gear, some nights I stop early and dont manage to get enough tokens to buy a piece of gear.</p><p>However, I like this system. Your only complaint is that im a hardcore raider and my raid gear should allow me to own anyone. You just miss the fact that you can't one shot people with PVP gear who put the time and effort into getting the gear.</p><p>With your stupid idea it would mean everyone has to raid in order to get GOOD gear to pvp with, then they have to raid even more to get adornments.</p><p>Next is your "take away immunity" idea. Yeah you are pretty cocky when you take on under geared people. But the point of the fact is that immunity is good period. There have been many times your "clique" has sat at the quel revive point and waited for our group to leave. O but wait its ok for you to abuse it while its there right. Like a little girl. However if you really believe the stuff you were typing you would come right out of immunity and get owned.</p><p>Here are some names of people you might know including my toon. Plavem, Jett, Bloodfed, Malith, Digby, Weaklings, Makkie, Renagade, Novarain, Novecaine I can keep going.</p><p>But its nice to see you and your clique think so highly of themselves. I guess you wish they would bring back the lag for you too.</p><p>And as hardcore as I am in both aspects of this game (raiding and pvping) The casual people do need protection, and ways to raid just like the hardcore people.</p><p>So while you suggest the gms talk to hardcore seasoned people like you who are very biased for yourself and your clique maybe they should talk to people like me. Im not biased, and think in the best interests of the game not personal gain like you do.</p>

Cloakentuna
08-09-2010, 04:33 PM
<p>At least half the people you named in that list sit up in the aqueduct above quelule with Jett dragging 1 person up at a time for the majority of their "PvP" time...</p>

Neskonlith
08-09-2010, 04:39 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That does bring up another issue to consider:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">When demanding limits in discussions to select elite panelists, I would strongly suggest that including players with known credibility issues for chat-channel hoaxing or exploiting not be considered without due caution - the purpose of such a discussion is to <em>maintain the integrity</em> of the game.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I prefer the free speech model where everyone who PVPs is allowed to contribute to this discussion about the future of PVP.</span></p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 04:59 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If we remove Toughness, there is no chance of people fighting raiders? People have been doing that for expansions and expansions now, and even succeeding.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Previous PVE gear* was not nearly as OP as the current expansion allows.  Why should PVE encounter procs be allowed unrestrained in PVP when PVP rewards have little or nothing comparable?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP fabled is where the PVP benchmark should be set, and diminishing PVP returns applied to PVE equipment above that limit.</span></p><p>*excluding Avatar gear - I was intending to refer back to earlier normal raid drops and how they weren't as bloated as they are now.</p></blockquote><p>The majority of that good procs are now nerfed excluding a couple good ones from TSO. So...</p><p>As for the list of players that guy posted.. I've been playing since Feb 21st, 2006, so you won't be on Nagafen before I was -- the same date if anything. The only good player I noticed in that list was Weaklings. Froggleg would probably agree.</p>

Lourd
08-09-2010, 05:30 PM
<p>I'm sure there will be more juicy pve raid procs in the furture that break pvp.   Even now, the procs from certain hard mode gear are way better than anything you can get from pvp alone.  And with a new expansion set to come out in 6 months..yeah, you can bet on it.  </p>

Peak
08-09-2010, 05:58 PM
<p>Because there haven't been absolutely OP PVP procs before.</p>

Toxicz
08-09-2010, 06:31 PM
<p><cite>Jacksalot wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Im a vet prolly around before some of you guys.</p><p>I don't see why you are crying about the armor sets. It was a great idea.</p><p>Look at it like this. I spend 5 hours a night raiding. I get lets say a piece of loot a night. This helps me to survive longer aganist aoe's while maximizing my dps.</p><p>Then I go an spend 5 hours a night pvping and get one piece of gear, some nights I stop early and dont manage to get enough tokens to buy a piece of gear.</p><p>However, I like this system. Your only complaint is that im a hardcore raider and my raid gear should allow me to own anyone. You just miss the fact that you can't one shot people with PVP gear who put the time and effort into getting the gear.</p><p>With your stupid idea it would mean everyone has to raid in order to get GOOD gear to pvp with, then they have to raid even more to get adornments.</p><p>Next is your "take away immunity" idea. Yeah you are pretty cocky when you take on under geared people. But the point of the fact is that immunity is good period. There have been many times your "clique" has sat at the quel revive point and waited for our group to leave. O but wait its ok for you to abuse it while its there right. Like a little girl. However if you really believe the stuff you were typing you would come right out of immunity and get owned.</p><p>Here are some names of people you might know including my toon. Plavem, Jett, Bloodfed, Malith, Digby, Weaklings, Makkie, Renagade, Novarain, Novecaine I can keep going.</p><p>But its nice to see you and your clique think so highly of themselves. I guess you wish they would bring back the lag for you too.</p><p>And as hardcore as I am in both aspects of this game (raiding and pvping) The casual people do need protection, and ways to raid just like the hardcore people.</p><p>So while you suggest the gms talk to hardcore seasoned people like you who are very biased for yourself and your clique maybe they should talk to people like me. Im not biased, and think in the best interests of the game not personal gain like you do.</p></blockquote><p>Insurrections "pvp" consisted of 3 places in the last 3 expansion. The rock behind TG's flight post in KP, The rock at the Fens flight post also in KP, and the Aqueduct near Quel'ul flight guy, hey at least your changing zones this expansion! The only person on there I personally think is good is weaklings. Hes been one of the best guards i've ever grpd with in pvp and pve. I would say Bloodfed also, but I don't remember him much before Toughness, and with how toughness is atm I can't really say any healer is "good" unless they can solo heal a grp in pvp, which not many healers I've seen can do.</p><p>Lourd yea Raid procs are the real problem atm, they really messed pvp up for 2 expansions now. Yea shifting band, fear earring, shifting buckler weren't OP at all compared to those raid procs.</p>

Neskonlith
08-09-2010, 06:54 PM
<p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/riskvsrewards.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The small nerfs to PVE procs in PVP are a beginning towards balancing PVP risk versus PVP reward.</span></p>

Lourd
08-09-2010, 06:54 PM
<p>You're preaching to the choir, Toxic.  I have been arguing against procs for 5 pages. </p><p>But you know, the same effects  have been available from pve raid gear for years.  For example, you could get the drop target proc from a Woushi shield.  </p><p><img src="http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3639/shieldh.jpg" width="307" height="558" /></p><p>And the banshee hoop fear reactive has been around since the game launched.  But there's no need to ruin t3/t4 pvp by posting a screenshot of these items.  Fortunately they dont affect level 90 targets.</p>

Cloakentuna
08-09-2010, 07:13 PM
<p>In your stupid little chart thing, could you please explain to me what this PVP Risk is?  Breaking gear?  Nope.  Losing fame?  Nope.  Dying?  Who cares, you can just get right back up and get back to the zerg.</p><p>Your chart might make sense if there actually was PvP risk, but this "risk" hasn't existed for quite a while now.  Lets not forget that the pvp gear is insanely easy to get and can be gained at a MUCH quicker rate than the pve gear.</p>

Neskonlith
08-09-2010, 07:23 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP risk is found in venturing out of the safety of closed raid instances and other immunity areas to PVP.  Normally, a PVP player runs the risk of being defeated by other players, unless they are equipped with OP raid gear that trivializes the encounter.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE Raid gear is gained by absolutely zero PVP effort, yet accounts for some of the most powerful PVP items out there.</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/gearspreadnow.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE gear needs to be put on a diminishing returns curve in PVP so that they stop trivializing PVP encounters.</span></p>

plavem_davem
08-09-2010, 08:07 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jacksalot wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Im a vet prolly around before some of you guys.</p><p>I don't see why you are crying about the armor sets. It was a great idea.</p><p>Look at it like this. I spend 5 hours a night raiding. I get lets say a piece of loot a night. This helps me to survive longer aganist aoe's while maximizing my dps.</p><p>Then I go an spend 5 hours a night pvping and get one piece of gear, some nights I stop early and dont manage to get enough tokens to buy a piece of gear.</p><p>However, I like this system. Your only complaint is that im a hardcore raider and my raid gear should allow me to own anyone. You just miss the fact that you can't one shot people with PVP gear who put the time and effort into getting the gear.</p><p>With your stupid idea it would mean everyone has to raid in order to get GOOD gear to pvp with, then they have to raid even more to get adornments.</p><p>Next is your "take away immunity" idea. Yeah you are pretty cocky when you take on under geared people. But the point of the fact is that immunity is good period. There have been many times your "clique" has sat at the quel revive point and waited for our group to leave. O but wait its ok for you to abuse it while its there right. Like a little girl. However if you really believe the stuff you were typing you would come right out of immunity and get owned.</p><p>Here are some names of people you might know including my toon. Plavem, Jett, Bloodfed, Malith, Digby, Weaklings, Makkie, Renagade, Novarain, Novecaine I can keep going.</p><p>But its nice to see you and your clique think so highly of themselves. I guess you wish they would bring back the lag for you too.</p><p>And as hardcore as I am in both aspects of this game (raiding and pvping) The casual people do need protection, and ways to raid just like the hardcore people.</p><p>So while you suggest the gms talk to hardcore seasoned people like you who are very biased for yourself and your clique maybe they should talk to people like me. Im not biased, and think in the best interests of the game not personal gain like you do.</p></blockquote><p>Insurrections "pvp" consisted of 3 places in the last 3 expansion. The rock behind TG's flight post in KP, The rock at the Fens flight post also in KP, and the Aqueduct near Quel'ul flight guy, hey at least your changing zones this expansion! The only person on there I personally think is good is weaklings. Hes been one of the best guards i've ever grpd with in pvp and pve. I would say Bloodfed also, but I don't remember him much before Toughness, and with how toughness is atm I can't really say any healer is "good" unless they can solo heal a grp in pvp, which not many healers I've seen can do.</p><p>Lourd yea Raid procs are the real problem atm, they really messed pvp up for 2 expansions now. Yea shifting band, fear earring, shifting buckler weren't OP at all compared to those raid procs.</p></blockquote><p>oh so now its a bad thing to put strategy into a pvp envoirment. Dude what do you have down syndrome?. What you really should be saying is your group of 4 should just not attack our group of 15 and let us kill you.</p><p>Charles Darwin - survival of the fittestest. No matter how we kill you you are still dead that makes you weak.</p>

Cloakentuna
08-09-2010, 08:16 PM
<p>What is with you and charts that make absolutely no sense?</p>

Neskonlith
08-09-2010, 08:48 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Striving for a competitive PVP playing field shouldn't be that much of a foreign concept, even to those players who farm in complete safety the closed PVE instances for PVE gear that trivializes PVP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is how PVP gear should be stacking up on a PVP server:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/gearspreadfuture.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The PVP template of the PVE gear should be adjusted accordingly.</span></p>

Lourd
08-09-2010, 08:50 PM
<p>I got the diagrams just fine.  He's saying there has been a gear gap in this game for the longest time, where the best raid gear would let you stomp over someone in just pvp gear (or worse) as easy as someone in pvp gear rolls over someone in treasured gear and app1 spells.  </p><p>You could say the risk in pvp is pride/status, but most elites would call it respect.  And it's something that they treasure more than plat or gear.    God forbid they die and someone gets a screenshot or worse, a youtube video, they can hold over them.</p>

Oakum
08-09-2010, 09:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What is with you and charts that make absolutely no sense?</p></blockquote><p>From my experience the charts dont make sense etiher, granted, i just do bg's and not open world pvp.  I went in a bg wearing my mostly t1/t2 fabled expecting to own but was owned over and over by any scout, mage, or fighter who targeted me very, very quickly. </p><p>They simply dpsed me down and of course, the roots only hold for 8 seconds and break on damage so they were worthless and were just a death delay and I couldnt out heal the incoming dps either.  Maybe its because the green healer cross looks like a red bullseye to everyone else with a big attack that crits ect for 20k+, not sure. lol.  </p><p>I changed back to the almost full bg set gear I had and actually survived much longer and am scratching my head at who they are talking about for PVE fabled owning pvp. Maybe the ocasional piece does but they are the rare exception now, not the norm.  Must be scouts, mages, and fighters.  I know a lot of people who do bg's for armor for survivablity for raiding until they get the raid drop pve equivelant for the harder pieces to get. The chart, as froggleg said, doesnt seem to make much sense.</p>

Lourd
08-09-2010, 09:27 PM
<p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What is with you and charts that make absolutely no sense?</p></blockquote><p>From my experience the charts dont make sense etiher, granted, i just do bg's and not open world pvp.  I went in a bg wearing my mostly t1/t2 fabled expecting to own but was owned over and over by any scout, mage, or fighter who targeted me very, very quickly. </p><p>They simply dpsed me down and of course, the roots only hold for 8 seconds and break on damage so they were worthless and were just a death delay and I couldnt out heal the incoming dps either.  Maybe its because the green healer cross looks like a red bullseye to everyone else with a big attack that crits ect for 20k+, not sure. lol.  </p><p>I changed back to the almost full bg set gear I had and actually survived much longer and am scratching my head at who they are talking about for PVE fabled owning pvp. Maybe the ocasional piece does but they are the rare exception now, not the norm.  Must be scouts, mages, and fighters.  I know a lot of people who do bg's for armor for survivablity for raiding until they get the raid drop pve equivelant for the harder pieces to get. The chart, as froggleg said, doesnt seem to make much sense.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, right now wearing pure raid gear will get you killed fast.  That's because it has no toughness on it, whereas the BG gear does.    But that's all the BG has over raid gear.  Toughness is the only thing keeping BG competitive with raid gear.  Raid gear has better stats, better procs, and arguably better adornments.</p><p>Now if all you do is remove toughness to fix pvp, then we're back to pre SF pvp where raid gear dominates all.  If you didn't raid to get gear, you'd be at the mercy of raiders. That's the way it's always been on Nagafen, despite what Peak would have you believe about the mastercrafted hero.</p>

Taldier
08-09-2010, 10:58 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP risk is found in venturing out of the safety of closed raid instances and other immunity areas to PVP.  Normally, a PVP player runs the risk of being defeated by other players, unless they are equipped with OP raid gear that trivializes the encounter.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE Raid gear is gained by absolutely zero PVP effort, yet accounts for some of the most powerful PVP items out there.</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/gearspreadnow.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE gear needs to be put on a diminishing returns curve in PVP so that they stop trivializing PVP encounters.</span></p></blockquote><p>Tbh I cant really remember a time when a linear graph like this has actually been accurate except maybe during RoK?</p><p>T7 I never really considered raid gear all that amazing just because basically all of the gear was pretty basic, "oh no! he has a couple extra stats, some extra mit, and +5 power regen!".  That pvp weapon with the ward/power proc was probably one of the most powerful weapons in the game lol.  And the pvp scout parry belt was hands down the most fight influencing single item I can think of.</p><p>Even during RoK I wasnt thinking "crap, that guy has a couple pieces of vp gear".  It was mainly just the mythicals with some of their effects being very powerful in pvp and the crazy powerful heal/ward loot from SoH.</p><p>Then TSO ended up bringing us the most powerful sets of pvp gear yet and lots more gear with crazy broken procs both from pvp and pve.</p><p>And with SF we have even more powerful pvp gear.  Sure alot of the pve jewelery is probably better than alot of the pvp stuff but most of the crazy good stuff I'd actually use for pvp drops from group instances not raids tbh.</p><p>Really I cant remember many instances of loot "trivializing" a pvp encounter except for a few really unique items with procs that just were never properly thought out in terms of how they would work in pvp.  The ward ring from SoH, the pvp banshee hoop, the heal wrist from zarrakon, the lycanthropy clicky hat/wrist before it was nerfed, several of the mythical effects, etc.  Most of these are RoK era items.  These were all just "fun" and "quirky" items added in without any thought given to pvp in the first place, causing them to be incredibly broken.</p><p>Basically the key to being stupidly powerful in pvp since release through TSO has been to search through every single item on pvp merchants and lootdb.com to find those rare poorly balanced proc items and then collect as many of them as humanly possible.</p><p>Now with SF, SoE's solution seems to be to cover everything with these same stupid procs.  Lifetaps, wards, reactive heals, etc.  They cover almost every piece of pvp gear and are scattered all over random raid/instance loot.</p><p>What is the point of pvp when two people can fight each other and all of their damage is negated by the massive amount of self healing they both do via gear procs and new aa abilities regardless of the classes involved?</p><p>The best thing that could be done for pvp balance isnt making more powerful gear... its making the actual abilities that people cast be more important than gear procs and passive effects like they were in T7.</p>

Neskonlith
08-10-2010, 01:27 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The best thing that could be done for pvp balance isnt making more powerful gear... its making the actual abilities that people cast be more important than gear procs and passive effects like they were in T7.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The graphs are simple and generalized so that the discussion point can be made - of course there are exceptions to most everything.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Look at some of the Red adorns that enhance a single concentration buff and applies it groupwide - to compensate, PVP gear has to stack increased survival tools to counterbalance the parse-bloating effects.  Consider: if you take a PVP group with each person using a single Red adorned item, you can easily have a group with significantly better survival, dps and power buffs without them having to do any PVP to earn that upgrade.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Add in the additional encounter procs found on superior PVE items, and suddenly a pure PVP group becomes clearly out-geared, without any PVP solution to compensate except Toughness.  Once PVE items are given a PVP template that is in-line with current PVP offerings, Toughness will be able to be reduced significantly, if not removed.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">That is the general point of this graph:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/gearspreadfuture.jpg" /></p>

Bono
08-10-2010, 01:47 AM
<p>Potency also needs to be brought in line. PVP gear potency only works in PVP. Raid gear has higher potency on so many items and works in both PVP and PVE. It needs to be changed to only work in PVE on PVE gear.</p><p>People talking about getting rid of Toughness from PVP gear and if they do they better give that armor PVE crit mit and change the potency to work in PVE also.</p>

Toxicz
08-10-2010, 04:53 AM
<p><cite>Jacksalot wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Jacksalot wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Im a vet prolly around before some of you guys.</p><p>I don't see why you are crying about the armor sets. It was a great idea.</p><p>Look at it like this. I spend 5 hours a night raiding. I get lets say a piece of loot a night. This helps me to survive longer aganist aoe's while maximizing my dps.</p><p>Then I go an spend 5 hours a night pvping and get one piece of gear, some nights I stop early and dont manage to get enough tokens to buy a piece of gear.</p><p>However, I like this system. Your only complaint is that im a hardcore raider and my raid gear should allow me to own anyone. You just miss the fact that you can't one shot people with PVP gear who put the time and effort into getting the gear.</p><p>With your stupid idea it would mean everyone has to raid in order to get GOOD gear to pvp with, then they have to raid even more to get adornments.</p><p>Next is your "take away immunity" idea. Yeah you are pretty cocky when you take on under geared people. But the point of the fact is that immunity is good period. There have been many times your "clique" has sat at the quel revive point and waited for our group to leave. O but wait its ok for you to abuse it while its there right. Like a little girl. However if you really believe the stuff you were typing you would come right out of immunity and get owned.</p><p>Here are some names of people you might know including my toon. Plavem, Jett, Bloodfed, Malith, Digby, Weaklings, Makkie, Renagade, Novarain, Novecaine I can keep going.</p><p>But its nice to see you and your clique think so highly of themselves. I guess you wish they would bring back the lag for you too.</p><p>And as hardcore as I am in both aspects of this game (raiding and pvping) The casual people do need protection, and ways to raid just like the hardcore people.</p><p>So while you suggest the gms talk to hardcore seasoned people like you who are very biased for yourself and your clique maybe they should talk to people like me. Im not biased, and think in the best interests of the game not personal gain like you do.</p></blockquote><p>Insurrections "pvp" consisted of 3 places in the last 3 expansion. The rock behind TG's flight post in KP, The rock at the Fens flight post also in KP, and the Aqueduct near Quel'ul flight guy, hey at least your changing zones this expansion! The only person on there I personally think is good is weaklings. Hes been one of the best guards i've ever grpd with in pvp and pve. I would say Bloodfed also, but I don't remember him much before Toughness, and with how toughness is atm I can't really say any healer is "good" unless they can solo heal a grp in pvp, which not many healers I've seen can do.</p><p>Lourd yea Raid procs are the real problem atm, they really messed pvp up for 2 expansions now. Yea shifting band, fear earring, shifting buckler weren't OP at all compared to those raid procs.</p></blockquote><p>oh so now its a bad thing to put strategy into a pvp envoirment. Dude what do you have down syndrome?. What you really should be saying is your group of 4 should just not attack our group of 15 and let us kill you.</p><p>Charles Darwin - survival of the fittestest. No matter how we kill you you are still dead that makes you weak.</p></blockquote><p>My point was that YOU and most of insurrection have no clue what pvp really needs, considering all you do is essentially get a full group and gank one person and call it pvp, but hey man what ever gets you off.</p>

Peak
08-10-2010, 11:22 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What is with you and charts that make absolutely no sense?</p></blockquote><p>From my experience the charts dont make sense etiher, granted, i just do bg's and not open world pvp.  I went in a bg wearing my mostly t1/t2 fabled expecting to own but was owned over and over by any scout, mage, or fighter who targeted me very, very quickly. </p><p>They simply dpsed me down and of course, the roots only hold for 8 seconds and break on damage so they were worthless and were just a death delay and I couldnt out heal the incoming dps either.  Maybe its because the green healer cross looks like a red bullseye to everyone else with a big attack that crits ect for 20k+, not sure. lol.  </p><p>I changed back to the almost full bg set gear I had and actually survived much longer and am scratching my head at who they are talking about for PVE fabled owning pvp. Maybe the ocasional piece does but they are the rare exception now, not the norm.  Must be scouts, mages, and fighters.  I know a lot of people who do bg's for armor for survivablity for raiding until they get the raid drop pve equivelant for the harder pieces to get. The chart, as froggleg said, doesnt seem to make much sense.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, right now wearing pure raid gear will get you killed fast.  That's because it has no toughness on it, whereas the BG gear does.    But that's all the BG has over raid gear.  Toughness is the only thing keeping BG competitive with raid gear.  Raid gear has better stats, better procs, and arguably better adornments.</p><p>Now if all you do is remove toughness to fix pvp, then we're back to pre SF pvp where raid gear dominates all.  If you didn't raid to get gear, you'd be at the mercy of raiders. That's the way it's always been on Nagafen, despite what Peak would have you believe about the mastercrafted hero.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty sure the idea was to remove Toughness and go back to Crit Mit being a single stat, not remove Toughness and let all the pure PVPers get owned.</p><p>All this thread is filled with now are people who are arguing with logic, and a few idiots posting graphs acting like PVP requires and skill or thought to it. You're arguing with people who have probably been PVPing far longer than you have, and have far more experience, and I'm sure we'd all agree that PVP takes no skill. Gear is not earned in PVP. At this point, and pretty much since ROK, it's simply given to you.</p><p>Yes, the raid gear has better adornments which is something that has changed since TSO. In TSO, some of the PVP set pieces and set bonuses were better than the raid bonuses and the ability to max out your crit mit far faster by PVPing in TSO gave you a huge advantage to raiding AND to PVPing.</p><p>And I never said someone could rock MC at 90 and own people. Sorry, but no. Maybe in EOF it was doable but not anymore. Might as well consider PVP gear to be MC since it's that easy to get.</p>

plavem_davem
08-10-2010, 12:47 PM
<p>You sir are about as birght as a 10 watt bulb if you get any brighter you would burn out.</p><p>I mean seriously your complaint in short is that I should raid to get better gear than everyone else. And that is very biased.</p><p>What exactly do you invest into a raid? Time, nothing more nothing less. Loot from a raid is a reward to your guild and the player for the time spent playing. With this loot you can progress to bigger and better raids and see end game mobs, that people who don't raid don't have access too.</p><p>What do you invest in PVP? Time, nothing more nothing less. By killing fellow players you gain emblems and status to get new armor. That is great against player vs player, helping you to kill more people be more effective in pvp combat.</p><p>Now to be the best you can be in pvp you would take some raid items mix it with some pvp items and you would be a force to be not easily dismissed. Meaning that raiders still have the upper hand just not as much as they used to.</p><p>With that being said, it is very unfair that you can spend 4 hours a night raiding and reap benefits from that in 2 different fields of the game. Maybe you are mentally handicap.</p><p>Earlier people said you have to work for which you want to obtian.</p><p>I garentee you this that I get pvp gear as fast as I get raid gear which is pretty quick. So now I guess raid gear is just handed to you right? Hell some nights i know people that get sat and sit in the guild hall for 4 hours and get loot just for being online. Which is fine by me cause they made the effort. What you need to realize is that the Hardcore pvpers who only want to pvp deserve rewards as good as those rewards that pvers get.  If you disagree with that then you need to go to a blue server where pve gear is still the best gear out there.</p><p>Even with full pvp gear a person that doesn't know how to pvp he still dies quickly.</p><p>Or are you mad that casual people are getting some benefits? If thats the case then eventually the game will completely die.</p><p>In my opinion they should offer quests for every player 1-20 that if you complete all the quests you would have a full set of pvp gear, that way newbies wouldn't die as quick and would be better prepared to handle the pvp while learning the games do and don'ts. Which in turn would make them want to stay on the server. But then again you would prolly argue F that I enjoy killing people in quested treasured gear, its take no skill. Like I said you don't want to be handed anything right.</p><p>Dude lastly I just have to say you people are full of contradictions. Look at world of warcraft, why do they have such a thriving community. Why do they have the number of resources they have? Because they cater to everyones needs not just a few elitest people who think they have the answers to all the problems.</p><p>Take away immunity, make more people quit. Especially the newbie players. Don't give good rewards for pvp, sure make the game boring to newer people who dont remeber or weren't around for how it used to be. I think the GMs are working towards a more posative way to get people to stay and pay to play and people like you view that as a bad thing.</p><p>I for one would never ask a friend to come play they game because of this. I have a hardcore mentality when it comes to raiding and pvping I do great. Im 29 years old, most of my friends would play this game over wow in a heart beat, but they have families, jobs and such, meaning they can't commit to a full time raiding guild, however they can log on for a couple of hours a pvp. With no rewards for pvp they would last a second against people who raid. So yeah they can keep playing wow.</p><p>Anyhow stop thinking with your head up your bum and start thinking with the best interest of the game and its community.</p>

Peak
08-10-2010, 01:43 PM
<p>Not asking you to raid, just to consider other options instead of thinking that removing Toughness and resorting to just a crit mit solution is terrible.</p><p>PVP gear has been comparable to PVE gear before. Show me some PVE gear that's absolutely game breaking in PVP, with no alternative, and preferably not something that can be 1 grouped for.</p>

Neskonlith
08-10-2010, 04:09 PM
<p><cite><a href="mailto<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>PVP gear has been comparable to PVE gear before. Show me some PVE gear that's absolutely game breaking in PVP, with no alternative, and preferably not something that can be 1 grouped for.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here are a couple of the final items for PVP, nothing better available:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid1.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">These Brutallic items are purchased via PVP effort and risk.  566 dmg proc in PVP!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Here are some PVE items that are gained free of PVP effort and risk, yet have effects that are superior in PVP:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid3.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE procs hit for almost twice what the PVP effects can.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">more PVP risk-free trivializing items:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid4.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE enjoys encounter procs, almost double the Potency when proccing, all unrestricted... tell me that doesn't trivialize PVP and make it easymode?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No matter how much PVP risk, effort and time is put forth, it is all invalidated by risk-free PVE drops from closed instances:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid5.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Wow, that one PVE item has a <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">5k</span></strong> dmg proc in PVP, while PVP has nothing to compare with a 566 dmg hit - justify why PVE "earns" the right to automatically trivialize PVP with no PVP effort, no PVP time, no PVP risk?</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid6.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">There are just a handful of scout usable drops that have no answer by the PVP items, except for Toughness.  I have seen other PVE drops for other classes that have no business being as powerful as they are in PVP, as they have invested no PVP effort to attain them - keep them OP for PVE only.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Can you see how this type of gear creates the need for Toughness, which then also starts to create issues of unkillable characters?  This is most likely why PVP is "boring" and "trivial" to raiders - their PVP risk-free gear out-classes pure PVP players.</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/gearspreadnow.jpg" width="505" height="404" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The gear gap on "PVP templates" must be narrowed to reflect PVP effort required to gain them - PVE requires zero PVP effort.</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/riskvsrewards.jpg" /></p>

Peak
08-10-2010, 04:20 PM
<p>It seems like the biggest complaint you have is the lack of powerful procs on PVP items.</p><p>You have to realize that while you're linking all these items that proc for 900 encounter damage, that 900 is very weak when typically a PVPer will have upwards of 20k HP. Not to mention that those proc numbers will be mitigated down even further before you're eventually hit for a 200-300 nuke. The only proc you even listed that hits close to it's actual amount (the Ghis axe) comes from an x2 that people run through with a PUG. Not to mention a PVP item exists with that same proc and the PVE version of it from TSO (still just as powerful and hits just as hard) can be 1grouped.</p><p>The "omg 5k proc" item you linked has been bugged since it was first released on Death Chimes back in SoH. It does not trigger even close to 33% of the time, but closer to maybe 5 or 6%. A 5 or 6% proc if the person happens to be under 15% HP? That's a joke.</p><p>I actually have a number of the items you listed on my PVE Troub and I've used them in Battlegrounds. Most of those items don't hit for even close to what they're listed as. I have those exact same legs and the most I've seen that proc hit for is around 3 or 400.</p><p>Followthrough (one of the procs on many of the pieces you linked) is also available on one or two other pieces of BG gear, not to mention Fatal Lifetap.</p>

Neskonlith
08-10-2010, 04:46 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The PVP proc is capped at 566dmg (single target only), while the PVE procs are 943, 2156, 2516, 5031, etc - some are even (encounter-wide).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">To gain the PVP proc capped at 566dmg, a player must PVP, putting forth PVP effort and risk until they have the Tokens to purchase it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">To gain the PVE proc at 5031dmg, a player must hide in a closed instance, in immunity, and put forth <span style="text-decoration: underline;">zero</span> PVP effort and <span style="text-decoration: underline;">zero</span> PVP risk.  When zero PVP effort PVE gear is proccing @~10x the damage in comparison to PVP earned gear, the PVP game becomes trivialized by players putting in no PVP effort.</span></p>

Lourd
08-10-2010, 08:13 PM
<p>I'm sure we all look forward to the day when zerkers are running around with these things..</p><p><img src="http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/9223/thepainz.jpg" /></p>

Putyo
08-11-2010, 12:01 AM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;"> putting forth PVP effort and risk until they have the Tokens to purchase it.</span><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></p></blockquote><p>yea getting warfields flagged and sitting in immunity, more effort then it takes to kill the hardest mobs in the game! Balanced!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

bRz
08-11-2010, 01:49 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;"> putting forth PVP effort and risk until they have the Tokens to purchase it.</span></blockquote><p>yea getting warfields flagged and sitting in immunity, more effort then it takes to kill the hardest mobs in the game! Balanced!!!!!!!!!!!!</p></blockquote><p>By all means ask them to change that then, your solution of just making raid gear the best gear doesnt solve that problem now does it? Having an issue with the way people obtain pvp gear is a completely separate problem than what the gear is or isn't.</p>

Toxicz
08-11-2010, 01:52 AM
<p>Dying to a PVE mob and dying to PVP are the same thing atm, why do you continue to use the word "risk" when there is no such thing in PVP? By going off your logic Neskonlith, pve has more risk because we have to repair our armor when we die, in PVP you lose nothing, and don't say you lose plat because if your stupid enough to lose plat in PVP then gratz you deserved to lose it. Kill count means nothing, no one cares about it anymore, all people want to do is zerg zerg zerg to get there pvp gear. To end this, PVP is easier than raiding, Getting PVP gear is much faster and easier than getting raid gear, and it takes more skill to raid/PVE than it does to PVP.</p><p>Toughness needs to be removed, bring back Crit mit like it was in TSO, but up it to the right standards, and bring back fame</p><p>Thank you.</p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 02:31 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dying to a PVE mob and dying to PVP are the same thing atm, why do you continue to use the word "risk" when there is no such thing in PVP? By going off your logic Neskonlith, pve has more risk because we have to repair our armor when we die, in PVP you lose nothing, and don't say you lose plat because if your stupid enough to lose plat in PVP then gratz you deserved to lose it. Kill count means nothing, no one cares about it anymore, all people want to do is zerg zerg zerg to get there pvp gear. To end this, PVP is easier than raiding, Getting PVP gear is much faster and easier than getting raid gear, and it takes more skill to raid/PVE than it does to PVP.</p><p>Toughness needs to be removed, bring back Crit mit like it was in TSO, but up it to the right standards, and bring back fame</p><p>Thank you.</p></blockquote><p>If what you said is true then no one from naggy would do bgs, because all of that gear is available through the pvp merchants for tokens. You don't do something that takes more time and yields you less. Thanks.</p>

Jeht
08-11-2010, 06:02 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></blockquote><p>yea getting warfields flagged and sitting in immunity, more effort then it takes to kill the hardest mobs in the game! Balanced!!!!!!!!!!!!</p></blockquote><p>yeah because getting 5 tokens from each warfield will get you soooooo much gear very quickly</p>

Guld_Ulrish
08-11-2010, 08:37 AM
<p>Just remove thoughness, bring old fame back, remove writsystem and it´s al fun again.</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 01:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dying to a PVE mob and dying to PVP are the same thing atm</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If dying to a PVE mob in complete immunity is the same thing as dying in PVP, why do you then feel entitled to have godmode gear in PVP that you have done zero PVP for?  At least PVP players put in some PVP effort, even if your freebie PVE gear trivializes their endeavours.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No PVP should equal no PVP reward.  Raiders have done nothing to earn their gear in PVP.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Olihin is fixing the quality of PVP encounters, so that concern is being addressed by SOE.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Seeing a lot of raid-geared players in this thread demanding removal of Toughness while failing to justify why their in immunity PVE-won gear should be the best in PVP with no effort.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">We need diminishing returns on PVE raid gear at the PVP gear level, and then SOE can remove Toughness!</span></p>

Olihin
08-11-2010, 01:59 PM
<p>Hello,</p><ul><li>We are not going to remove it from PvP gear.  </li><li>It will be evaluated to make sure survival is balanced.</li><li>We need to add more DPS mods to PvP armor but at the same keep it balanced with survivability. </li><li>We want to continue to let you PvE and earn raid gear, but at the same time keep PvP gear separate and  competitive. </li></ul><p>I hope that clears any confusion on the Toughness stat. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Putyo
08-11-2010, 02:38 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello,</p><ul><li>We are not going to remove it from PvP gear.  </li><li>It will be evaluated to make sure survival is balanced.</li><li>We need to add more DPS mods to PvP armor but at the same keep it balanced with survivability. </li><li>We want to continue to let you PvE and earn raid gear, but at the same time keep PvP gear separate and  competitive. </li></ul><p>I hope that clears any confusion on the Toughness stat. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>/sigh</p><p>You never stopped us from earning our PvE gear, what is that statement supposed to mean? Are you going to be adding blue adornments to everything or no?</p><p>Why add more dps on pvp gear when you could just remove toughness, you are fixing a hemorrhaging wound with a band aid. The system we had before YOU took over wasnt perfect but it had worked good enough for the past 4 years, you are trying to overhaul everything and by doing so you are destroying playstyles and the fun factor of pvp, completely getting rid of what Nagafen has been about since pvp launch. You go in the complete opposite direction of what the players want (see proc nerfs) and pretty much refuse to acknowledge that you are wrong and that you do not pvp past level 50.</p><p>Terrible is terrible.</p>

Zacarus
08-11-2010, 02:45 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello,</p><ul><li>We are not going to remove it from PvP gear.  </li><li>It will be evaluated to make sure survival is balanced.</li><li>We need to add more DPS mods to PvP armor but at the same keep it balanced with survivability. </li><li>We want to continue to let you PvE and earn raid gear, but at the same time keep PvP gear separate and  competitive. </li></ul><p>I hope that clears any confusion on the Toughness stat. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>/applaud</p>

convict
08-11-2010, 02:52 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello,</p><ul><li>We are not going to remove it from PvP gear.  </li><li>It will be evaluated to make sure survival is balanced.</li><li>We need to add more DPS mods to PvP armor but at the same keep it balanced with survivability. </li><li>We want to continue to let you PvE and earn raid gear, but at the same time keep PvP gear separate and  competitive. </li></ul><p>I hope that clears any confusion on the Toughness stat. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>/sigh</p><p>You never stopped us from earning our PvE gear, what is that statement supposed to mean? Are you going to be adding blue adornments to everything or no?</p><p>Why add more dps on pvp gear when you could just remove toughness, you are fixing a hemorrhaging wound with a band aid. The system we had before YOU took over wasnt perfect but it had worked good enough for the past 4 years, you are trying to overhaul everything and by doing so you are destroying playstyles and the fun factor of pvp, completely getting rid of what Nagafen has been about since pvp launch. You go in the complete opposite direction of what the players want (see proc nerfs) and pretty much refuse to acknowledge that you are wrong and that you do not pvp past level 50.</p><p>Terrible is terrible.</p></blockquote><p>Well said.</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 02:54 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello,</p><ul><li>We are not going to remove it from PvP gear.  </li><li>It will be evaluated to make sure survival is balanced.</li><li>We need to add more DPS mods to PvP armor but at the same keep it balanced with survivability. </li><li>We want to continue to let you PvE and earn raid gear, but at the same time keep PvP gear separate and  competitive. </li></ul><p>I hope that clears any confusion on the Toughness stat. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Sounds like a promising plan!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Finding a PVP solution for PVP issues on a PVP server is always a great way to make sure PVP remains competitive.</span></p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 03:07 PM
<p>Nice, so not only is toughness on everything right now and people are easily hitting 30%+ but its staying and only going to get worse.</p><p>Lame</p>

TheSpin
08-11-2010, 03:09 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello,</p><ul><li>We are not going to remove it from PvP gear.  </li><li>It will be evaluated to make sure survival is balanced.</li><li>We need to add more DPS mods to PvP armor but at the same keep it balanced with survivability. </li><li>We want to continue to let you PvE and earn raid gear, but at the same time keep PvP gear separate and  competitive. </li></ul><p>I hope that clears any confusion on the Toughness stat. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>/sigh</p><p>You never stopped us from earning our PvE gear, what is that statement supposed to mean? Are you going to be adding blue adornments to everything or no?</p><p>Why add more dps on pvp gear when you could just remove toughness, you are fixing a hemorrhaging wound with a band aid. The system we had before YOU took over wasnt perfect but it had worked good enough for the past 4 years, you are trying to overhaul everything and by doing so you are destroying playstyles and the fun factor of pvp, completely getting rid of what Nagafen has been about since pvp launch. You go in the complete opposite direction of what the players want (see proc nerfs) and pretty much refuse to acknowledge that you are wrong and that you do not pvp past level 50.</p><p>Terrible is terrible.</p></blockquote><p>Speaking from a perspective of a player who didn't pvp before BGs... It was really really important that they brought toughness up to where it is and make it really worthwhile.  Originally in BGs there were monsters who never died (usually from nagafen) and there were squishies that died in 10 seconds or less.  Now it's up to a point where nobody dies too quickly, and that's where it needs to be to start giving the appropriate classes/items etc the ability to start doing signifigant damage again.</p><p>I understand that on PVP you guys had been ok with a mediocre pvp system for years, but just give em a chance to adjust it according to their plan and see how it ends up.  One big benefit of having F2P right around the corner is that they are going to fix as much of this kind of stuff as they can so the game will be balanced by the time f2p officially goes live.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 03:21 PM
<p>Everyone living forever because of passive dmg reduction on gear is beyond dumb, I cant believe any of you think that its a good stat/idea</p>

plavem_davem
08-11-2010, 04:07 PM
<p>You know what you guys are right.</p><p>Lets take away toughness so the people who raid can one shot everyone everywhere.</p><p>But wait let just take away gear all together we can run around beating each other with out fists in our underwear.</p><p>Lol Pudaan is mad he can no longer one shot people thats all there is to it.</p><p>BTW Insurrection caught oynx last night. Seem Pvpmedics, Razor, and a couple of other could hold there own. Guess they need more pvp gear cause pve gear isnt helping em so much any more.</p><p>What Ohlin said made me laugh out loud thinking how bad it would [Removed for Content] poor oynx.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 04:12 PM
<p>Even without toughness gear crit mit would make it so that would never happen.</p><p>I'm a healing ffs and I dont want toughness when it probably benefits my archtype more then any other.</p><p>It's a broken stat/mechanic that prolongs fights to obsene levels, not because the player is good or able to use his abilities properly, but because he wore toughness.</p><p>Toughness is broken and its only going to get worse from here on out.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 04:14 PM
<p><cite>Jacksalot wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know what you guys are right.</p><p>Lets take away toughness so the people who raid can one shot everyone everywhere.</p><p>But wait let just take away gear all together we can run around beating each other with out fists in our underwear.</p><p>Lol Pudaan is mad he can no longer one shot people thats all there is to it.</p><p>BTW Insurrection caught oynx last night. Seem Pvpmedics, Razor, and a couple of other could hold there own. Guess they need more pvp gear cause pve gear isnt helping em so much any more.</p><p><strong>What Ohlin said made me laugh out loud thinking how bad it would [Removed for Content] poor oynx.</strong></p></blockquote><p>It should [Removed for Content] every true pvp'r off.</p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 04:25 PM
<p><cite>Jacksalot wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You know what you guys are right.</p><p>Lets take away toughness so the people who raid can one shot everyone everywhere.</p><p>But wait let just take away gear all together we can run around beating each other with out fists in our underwear.</p><p>Lol Pudaan is mad he can no longer one shot people thats all there is to it.</p><p>BTW Insurrection caught oynx last night. Seem Pvpmedics, <span style="color: #ff0000;">Razor</span>, and a couple of other could hold there own. Guess they need more pvp gear cause pve gear isnt helping em so much any more.</p><p>What Ohlin said made me laugh out loud thinking how bad it would [Removed for Content] poor oynx.</p></blockquote><p>It's amusing to see Jacksalot's 12 posts all contain the word Onyx or a variation of it, [Removed for Content] Insurrection I assume. Btw, who is Razor?</p><p>PS: QFE on Pudaan's post. Spot on.</p>

Taldier
08-11-2010, 04:27 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello,</p><ul><li>We are not going to remove it from PvP gear.  </li><li>It will be evaluated to make sure survival is balanced.</li><li><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong>We need to add more DPS mods to PvP armor but at the same keep it balanced with survivability. </strong></span></li><li>We want to continue to let you PvE and earn raid gear, but at the same time keep PvP gear separate and  competitive. </li></ul><p>I hope that clears any confusion on the Toughness stat. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>This is not a solution.  Most people are already capped on most of their dps stats.  Unless you are going to add some new dps mod stat ("anti-toughness"? see how absurdly pointlessly complex the system gets?) this doesnt do anything.</p><p>No, just putting a bunch of potency on everything will NOT work because classes do not benefit from it equally.</p><p>If you cover the gear in more crit bonus, basically all you would be doing is negating the crit mit you already put on the gear in the first place.  Do you not see how pointless that is?  Its the exact same thing as just taking the crit mit off the gear.</p><p>On top of this, you are simply compounding the problem that anyone NOT wearing the gear will be instantly oneshot.</p><p>You are designing a system where players are given only one option of gear to wear, and if they dont get the full set they will instantly die.</p><p>What happened to all the complexity?  What ever happened to everyone designing their own spec, choosing between an huge selection of items to fill each slot?</p><p>How much are the carebear casuals going to whine on the bg forums if you increase the dps generated by players wearing the gear to the point that I can kill their entire group with an aoe?</p><p>You arent generating balance, you are digging yourself deeper in the hole that SOE started digging when they made RoK gear 5000 times more powerful than the previous tier.  At some point you run out of stats to increase...the solution isnt to keep pulling more stats out of your @%%.</p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 04:39 PM
<p>What he said ^^^</p>

Thinwizzy
08-11-2010, 04:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello,</p><ul><li>We are not going to remove it from PvP gear.  </li><li>It will be evaluated to make sure survival is balanced.</li><li><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong>We need to add more DPS mods to PvP armor but at the same keep it balanced with survivability. </strong></span></li><li>We want to continue to let you PvE and earn raid gear, but at the same time keep PvP gear separate and  competitive. </li></ul><p>I hope that clears any confusion on the Toughness stat. </p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>This is not a solution.  Most people are already capped on most of their dps stats.  Unless you are going to add some new dps mod stat ("anti-toughness"? see how absurdly pointlessly complex the system gets?) this doesnt do anything.</p><p>No, just putting a bunch of potency on everything will NOT work because classes do not benefit from it equally.</p><p>If you cover the gear in more crit bonus, basically all you would be doing is negating the crit mit you already put on the gear in the first place.  Do you not see how pointless that is?  Its the exact same thing as just taking the crit mit off the gear.</p><p>On top of this, you are simply compounding the problem that anyone NOT wearing the gear will be instantly oneshot.</p><p>You are designing a system where players are given only one option of gear to wear, and if they dont get the full set they will instantly die.</p><p>What happened to all the complexity?  What ever happened to everyone designing their own spec, choosing between an huge selection of items to fill each slot?</p><p>How much are the carebear casuals going to whine on the bg forums if you increase the dps generated by players wearing the gear to the point that I can kill their entire group with an aoe?</p><p>You arent generating balance, you are digging yourself deeper in the hole that SOE started digging when they made RoK gear 5000 times more powerful than the previous tier.  At some point you run out of stats to increase...the solution isnt to keep pulling more stats out of your @%%.</p></blockquote><p>QFE.</p>

Olihin
08-11-2010, 04:51 PM
<p>Just to be clear.</p><p>If DPS is added to armor, toughness is lowered.  </p><p>Players would need to make a choice about how to gear up in PvP.  The difference would be that the DPS bonus would function in PVP only but at the same time, it would have some toughness.  </p><p>Raid gear will remain the same.  Your DPS and adornments + Crit Mit for your PvE encounters. </p><p>In regards to what was done before, and what is available now...I am working with what was left over and trying to adjust it without completely alienating those that never knew what you guys are talking about.   What I posted is what is being considered and things may change. </p><p>I clearly remember those that posted in arms when Critical Mitigation was added to TSO PvP armor.   "Let PvE be best in PvE since I earned it, and let PvP not have the stat since they did not earn it" was the most common theme.   So now you have what we have and the tide turns.  You can have it both ways for sure...just not in one armor set at this time.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Lourd
08-11-2010, 04:58 PM
<p>Why was all of this potency and crit bonus added in the first place.  We do more damage with it, but then they just up the health/toughness of everything to compensate.  </p><p>And when you say adding dps mods, I hope that doesn't mean you're putting flurry and spell double attack stats on all the new BG jewelry.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 05:05 PM
<p>There are people right now who forgo every single stat in this game except toughness/pvp crit mit because of how rediculous it is.</p><p>Think back to last year in TSO for a second to Munzok's zone and all that resist gear you made that NO ONE used.</p><p>And now, everyone wants the bg resist gear.  Think about it for a second, NO ONE wanted any previous resist gear you made and now everyone uses it.</p><p>Why is that?  Because people will get rediculous toughness coupled with rediculous pvp crit mit on top of their actual resists and class dmg reductions.</p><p>Toughness also indirectly makes fighters/priests even more brutal to play against, if the healer that took 10-15seconds to kill before toughness now takes 25-30 seconds to kill while cycling cc effects fighters have even more time to lock people down onto them and in effect create massive turtle fights devoid of any skill.</p><p>You literally made passive dmg reduction the only thing that matters for many classes, its broken, it needs to be capped at a reasonable level and you guys need to seperate all dmg reductions.</p><p>example.</p><p>RandomSK_01 has 5% dmg reduction on his shield, 300dmg reduction to all physical attacks, has 37% toughness and 10% dmg reduction from a proc.</p><p>When dmg occurs ONLY the highest should apply, NOT all of them compounded on top of 75% resists and pvp crit mit.</p><p>You guys need to get rid of toughness "which you wont for whatever reasons" cap it at a reasonable level "20-25%" and not allow it to compound with other dmg reduction #'s or %'s.</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 05:24 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I clearly remember those that posted in arms when Critical Mitigation was added to TSO PvP armor.   <span style="color: #ff00ff;">"Let PvE be best in PvE since I earned it, and let PvP not have the stat since they did not earn it"</span> was the most common theme.  </p><p>So now you have what we have and the tide turns.  You can have it both ways for sure...just not in one armor set at this time.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The natural corollary to that PVE raider demand is "<em>let PVP be best in PVP since I earned it through PVP, and let PVE not have Toughness since they did not earn it</em>".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">In such a manner, it would be also be appropriate to adjust new PVP weapons to have the better PVP effects or dps over PVE raid drops in PVP encounters, or at the very least use something like diminishing returns on the raid drop PVP templates to make current PVP weapons a viable alternative.</span></p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 05:25 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are people right now who forgo every single stat in this game except toughness/pvp crit mit because of how rediculous it is.</p><p>Think back to last year in TSO for a second to Munzok's zone and all that resist gear you made that NO ONE used.</p><p>And now, everyone wants the bg resist gear.  Think about it for a second, NO ONE wanted any previous resist gear you made and now everyone uses it.</p><p>Why is that?  Because people will get rediculous toughness coupled with rediculous pvp crit mit on top of their actual resists and class dmg reductions.</p><p>Toughness also indirectly makes fighters/priests even more brutal to play against, if the healer that took 10-15seconds to kill before toughness now takes 25-30 seconds to kill while cycling cc effects fighters have even more time to lock people down onto them and in effect create massive turtle fights devoid of any skill.</p><p>You literally made passive dmg reduction the only thing that matters for many classes, its broken, it needs to be capped at a reasonable level and you guys need to seperate all dmg reductions.</p><p>example.</p><p>RandomSK_01 has 5% dmg reduction on his shield, 300dmg reduction to all physical attacks, has 37% toughness and 10% dmg reduction from a proc.</p><p>When dmg occurs ONLY the highest should apply, NOT all of them compounded on top of 75% resists and pvp crit mit.</p><p>You guys need to get rid of toughness "which you wont for whatever reasons" cap it at a reasonable level "20-25%" and not allow it to compound with other dmg reduction #'s or %'s.</p></blockquote><p>You do realize that you can cap toughness fairly easily, without filling every single slot with toughness gear right? I don't know if you've come to grips with what toughness is, just based on all of your posts in this thread.</p><p>How about this, I'm going to repeat this.</p><p>If you do something involving PVE, you get rewards that help you compete in PVE.</p><p>If you do something involving PVP, you get rewards that help you compete in PVP.</p><p>The highest tier of each set can be just as effective in either situation.</p><p>You want to be good at PVP raiders? Just because you waste large segments of your weeknights with the same people over and over running the same mobs doesn't mean that we care about your wonderful pve gear. While you were out doing that, I was doing the PvP content, and guess what... I expect to own someone who's running a scripted mob on a schedule when I've been spending all my time PvPing.</p><p>Now, I know what you're thinking, "Well BG gear works GREAT in heroic instances!". Unfortunately, that's like saying "Raid gear works alright in pvp." The potency off Bg gear doesn't work in pve, so you've essentially lost large chunks of your parse if you're wearing pvp potency in pve, no?</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 05:27 PM
<p>The pvp weapons are not only viable, they are better then all the pve easymode daggers.</p><p>I know because my swash is using both of them for bg's and pve.</p>

Taldier
08-11-2010, 05:27 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>....</p><p>In regards to what was done before, and what is available now...I am working with what was left over and trying to adjust it without completely alienating those that never knew what you guys are talking about.   What I posted is what is being considered and things may change. </p><p>...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: x-large;">Olihin</span></p></blockquote><p>Some people wish that the opinions of veteran pvp players who have been working within a constantly changing system for the past 3-5 years had greater weight in the debate than the exit questionaires of people who played for 6 months and quit tbh.</p><p>Just because everyone pays the same subscription doesnt mean that everyone actually understands the mechanics well enough to actually know what is in their own best interest.  Players who cant hold their own without a raid behind them have never even had the chance to really learn the mechanics in the first place.</p><p>You dont have to listen to every single idiotic idea randomly thrown out there.</p><p>Just develop a properly functioning system and then let players play in it.  People like things that actually work whether it was their idea or not.  This is what pvp in an rpg is supposed to be, not a complex heavily regimented grind that developers constantly have to change and rebalance.  You build the sandbox, then you step back and watch what happens.</p>

Wytie
08-11-2010, 05:33 PM
<p>Toughness needs to be removed, we only needed pvp crit mit.</p><p>With how strong healers are now days it should be challenge a solo heal a group.</p><p>Otherwise DPS/Heals will never be balenced.</p><p>With how it is now, fights stailmate too easy and quick, then the fight only ends once 1 side gets out numbered 5-1.</p><p>The dumb part is it will take 5-1 odds to down solid groups, so fights end up nothing more than who can survive untill backup/everyone shows up.</p><p>What happens when 2 solid groups fight each other? NOTHING, NOTHING happens they stand there and beat on each other untill 3 other group show up 30min later to overwhelm the people who are engaged.</p><p>This is not pvp.</p><p>Pvp is almost ruined to the point of no return you guys have no idea how much toughness screwd pvp up.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 05:38 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are people right now who forgo every single stat in this game except toughness/pvp crit mit because of how rediculous it is.</p><p>Think back to last year in TSO for a second to Munzok's zone and all that resist gear you made that NO ONE used.</p><p>And now, everyone wants the bg resist gear.  Think about it for a second, NO ONE wanted any previous resist gear you made and now everyone uses it.</p><p>Why is that?  Because people will get rediculous toughness coupled with rediculous pvp crit mit on top of their actual resists and class dmg reductions.</p><p>Toughness also indirectly makes fighters/priests even more brutal to play against, if the healer that took 10-15seconds to kill before toughness now takes 25-30 seconds to kill while cycling cc effects fighters have even more time to lock people down onto them and in effect create massive turtle fights devoid of any skill.</p><p>You literally made passive dmg reduction the only thing that matters for many classes, its broken, it needs to be capped at a reasonable level and you guys need to seperate all dmg reductions.</p><p>example.</p><p>RandomSK_01 has 5% dmg reduction on his shield, 300dmg reduction to all physical attacks, has 37% toughness and 10% dmg reduction from a proc.</p><p>When dmg occurs ONLY the highest should apply, NOT all of them compounded on top of 75% resists and pvp crit mit.</p><p>You guys need to get rid of toughness "which you wont for whatever reasons" cap it at a reasonable level "20-25%" and not allow it to compound with other dmg reduction #'s or %'s.</p></blockquote><p>You do realize that you can cap toughness fairly easily, without filling every single slot with toughness gear right? I don't know if you've come to grips with what toughness is, just based on all of your posts in this thread.</p><p>How about this, I'm going to repeat this.</p><p>If you do something involving PVE, you get rewards that help you compete in PVE.</p><p>If you do something involving PVP, you get rewards that help you compete in PVP.</p><p>The highest tier of each set can be just as effective in either situation.</p><p>You want to be good at PVP raiders? Just because you waste large segments of your weeknights with the same people over and over running the same mobs doesn't mean that we care about your wonderful pve gear. While you were out doing that, I was doing the PvP content, and guess what... I expect to own someone who's running a scripted mob on a schedule when I've been spending all my time PvPing.</p><p>Now, I know what you're thinking, "Well BG gear works GREAT in heroic instances!". Unfortunately, that's like saying "Raid gear works alright in pvp." The potency off Bg gear doesn't work in pve, so you've essentially lost large chunks of your parse if you're wearing pvp potency in pve, no?</p></blockquote><p>Toughness needs to be removed or capped at 10-25%</p><p>I dont understand your hatred "or extreme dislike" towards "raiders" comes from, but I spend more time in a week bging then I do raiding and I'm in one of the few guilds currently in 3rd wing of Underfoot "not to brag, just the truth"</p><p>You are not owning anyone, cant you see that?  Dmg reduction is winning every single pvp fight on your server at 90 right now, the only winner is the guy who can keep his eyes open and his mana higher then his opponent.</p><p>I did not post here to argue with you, but simply to say that toughness coupled with other dmg reductions on top of pvp crit mit and base resists that everyone hits 75% on should not be stacking in such a way that creates massive turtle fights devoid of skill.</p><p>I also thought the majority of the pvp players would agree with me completely that it is in fact ruining pvp, once again I was proved wrong.</p>

Olihin
08-11-2010, 05:41 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are people right now who forgo every single stat in this game except toughness/pvp crit mit because of how rediculous it is.</p><p>Think back to last year in TSO for a second to Munzok's zone and all that resist gear you made that NO ONE used.</p><p>And now, everyone wants the bg resist gear.  Think about it for a second, NO ONE wanted any previous resist gear you made and now everyone uses it.</p><p>Why is that?  Because people will get rediculous toughness coupled with rediculous pvp crit mit on top of their actual resists and class dmg reductions.</p><p>Toughness also indirectly makes fighters/priests even more brutal to play against, if the healer that took 10-15seconds to kill before toughness now takes 25-30 seconds to kill while cycling cc effects fighters have even more time to lock people down onto them and in effect create massive turtle fights devoid of any skill.</p><p>You literally made passive dmg reduction the only thing that matters for many classes, its broken, it needs to be capped at a reasonable level and you guys need to seperate all dmg reductions.</p><p>example.</p><p>RandomSK_01 has 5% dmg reduction on his shield, 300dmg reduction to all physical attacks, has 37% toughness and 10% dmg reduction from a proc.</p><p>When dmg occurs ONLY the highest should apply, NOT all of them compounded on top of 75% resists and pvp crit mit.</p><p>You guys need to get rid of toughness "which you wont for whatever reasons" cap it at a reasonable level "20-25%" and not allow it to compound with other dmg reduction #'s or %'s.</p></blockquote><ul><li>Toughness is supposed to be the best stat for you in PvP.</li><li>No one used resist gear before, since it was not calculating correctly and there was other gear more suitable for those slots in PvE content.</li><li>Everyone wants resist gear now because the bug was fixed and now resists actually matter.</li><li>The passive damage reduction issue you speak about is apples vs. oranges and nothing to do with toughness.   Toughness does make those classes with such a lot harder to kill.   Again, separate issue.</li></ul><p>To recap some of the changes made:</p><ul><li>We removed the damage reduction from all players for being in PvP.  </li><li>We removed the damage modifier from classes in PvP, was set to lower damage for most. </li><li>We fixed resist calculations </li><li>We fixed spell resists</li><li>Control spells reduced in time</li><li>Critical Mitigation no longer applies in PvP</li><li>New AAs added</li><li>Added toughness</li></ul><p>At this time, toughness is not changing simply because there are other factors that are being investigated to make sure we don't pull the rug from under everyone.   We must evaluate all the changes that have been made and will be made and then consider how the changes will apply in our servers. </p><p>Till then, please continue to submit your feedback.   It is appreciated.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 05:52 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The pvp weapons are not only viable, they are better then all the pve easymode daggers.</p><p>I know because my swash is using both of them for bg's and pve.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Nice!  You try to compare the BEST of PVP weapons versus the WORST of PVE weapons to make your point... </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">lol</span></p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 05:53 PM
<p>I understand you want everyone to be able to compete, but living forever in turtle matches due to toughness is not competing and it wont be long until the vast majority also come to realize this.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 05:56 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The pvp weapons are not only viable, they are better then all the pve easymode daggers.</p><p>I know because my swash is using both of them for bg's and pve.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Nice!  You try to compare the BEST of PVP weapons versus the WORST of PVE weapons to make your point... </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">lol</span></p></blockquote><p>They are better then any weapons outside of hardmode epic mobs.</p><p>I dont understand what you are getting at</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 05:58 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Underpowered PVP weapons with only single target procs go a long way towards accounting for lower dps parses versus PVE drops in PVP encounters.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If PVP weapons get a boost to encounter-wide procs that hit for a decent amount, the "turtle" matches would get crushed much faster.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP solutions are required for PVP issues, not allowing unrestricted PVE drops that continue to undermine the PVP </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">system.</span></p>

Lourd
08-11-2010, 05:59 PM
<p>What about replacing the flat damage reduction from toughness with a potency reduction mod, along with the pvp crit mit bonus?</p><p>Then we'll be back to TSO levels of damage (i.e. people will be dieing), but you'll still want to wear the pvp gear over raid gear because otherwise the potency from the BG/PVE gear will mess you up.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 06:06 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Underpowered PVP weapons with only single target procs go a long way towards accounting for lower dps parses versus PVE drops in PVP encounters.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If PVP weapons get a boost to encounter-wide procs that hit for a decent amount, the "turtle" matches would get crushed much faster.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP solutions are required for PVP issues, not allowing unrestricted PVE drops that continue to undermine the PVP </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">system.</span></p></blockquote><p>The bg weapons are amazing, I dont know how you can frown on a 445 top end dmg that a solo player can aquire in reasonable time with little effort.</p><p>Pve encounter procs were nerfed into oblivion during pvp combat.</p><p>Seriously man I could get any raid item you could possibly want or have seen so far and I wear 15 pieces of bg gear during bg's and ONE piece of SF raid gear redslot hastle gloves.</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 06:14 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The bg weapons are amazing, I dont know how you can frown on a 445 top end dmg that a solo player can aquire in reasonable time with little effort.</p><p>Pve encounter procs were nerfed into oblivion during pvp combat.</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid3.jpg" width="713" height="424" /></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid4.jpg" width="721" height="455" /></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid5.jpg" width="739" height="450" /></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid6.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Compared to the BEST PVP items:</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/pvpvsraid1.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If the PVP items are superior as you insist, then there should be absolutely no issue to Olihin further adjusting down the PVE weapon PVP templates to be proccing lower or equal to the PVP vendor weapons, right?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP solutions for PVP issues!</span></p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 06:21 PM
<p>Lol at assuming Torrent does alot in pvp. I'm lucky if that procs for 300 damage.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 06:29 PM
<p>You know Neskon I'm pretty much your best friend when you think about it.</p><p>I raid at the highest level and agree that pvp gear should be the best there is in pvp, BUT and this is a big but there has to be some risk vs. reward added in order to do so.</p><p>Currently there is no loss, the worst pvp player on nagafen can also get the best pvp rewards on nagafen at this time.</p><p>You cannot have the best items in game handed out to everyone without some sort of loss in between aquiring those items or else everyone will just use that path.</p><p>Do you think hardcore raiders would spend time building a raidforce of 24+ likeminded people of certain classes who can all play that class at the highest level for a chance to maybe get 1-2 amazing items if they could just show up whenever they felt like, solo'd up and just got everything handed to them?</p><p>No, they would not because the risk outweighs the gain, everyone would just get that gear and call it a day.</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 06:31 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Lol at assuming Torrent does alot in pvp. I'm lucky if that procs for 300 damage.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Maybe future PVP weapons need Pestilential Rain III, Blood Ritual II, Earth Drink II?</span></p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 06:36 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Lol at assuming Torrent does alot in pvp. I'm lucky if that procs for 300 damage.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Maybe future PVP weapons need Pestilential Rain III, Blood Ritual II, Earth Drink II?</span></p></blockquote><p>Just curious Neskonlith, who is your main toon on Nagafen?</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 06:38 PM
<p>Current pve gear path as I see it.</p><p>Legenday/MC - easiest to aquire with least time spent.</p><p>Easymode epicX4's - requires 24+ people playing at the same times having some of them capable of playing their class.  reasonable time spent</p><p>Bg/pvp gear - requires 1+ person playing whenever and being able to play is a bonus, but not required.  reasonable time spent</p><p>Hardmode epicX4 gear - requires 24+ people playing at the same times, having certain classes and for the harder HM mobs requires everyone in your raidforce paying attention at all times and capable of playing their role at a high level.</p><p>Current pvp path as I see it.</p><p>Legenday/MC - easiest to aquire with least time spent.</p><p>Easymode epicX4's - requires 24+ people playing at the same times having some of them capable of playing their class.  reasonable time spent</p><p>Hardmode epicX4 gear - requires 24+ people playing at the same times, having certain classes and for the harder HM mobs requires everyone in your raidforce paying attention at all times and capable of playing their role at a high level.</p><p>Bg/pvp gear - requires 1+ person playing whenever and being able to play is a bonus, but not required.  reasonable time spent.</p><p>How it should be in pvp.</p><p>Legenday/MC - easiest to aquire with least time spent.</p><p>Easymode epicX4's - requires 24+ people playing at the same times having some of them capable of playing their class.  reasonable time spent</p><p>Bg gear - requires 1+ person playing whenever and being able to play is a bonus, but not required.  reasonable time spent.</p><p>Hardmode epicX4 gear - requires 24+ people playing at the same times, having certain classes and for the harder HM mobs requires everyone in your raidforce paying attention at all times and capable of playing their role at a high level.</p><p>Pvp gear "with a new risk vs. reward system" - Requires 1+ person capable of playing his class at a high level, pvp gear is bought with pvp status, status is gained by defeating people "more or less depending on level and opponents current status" and is also lost when defeated "more or less depending on level and opponents current status"</p><p>pvp gear is bought with the same status.</p>

Aiyana
08-11-2010, 06:38 PM
<p>In my opinion PvP is a added compontent to Eq2...it wasn't meant to be an entirely new game.  I don't understand why people come to this game and ask for handouts to compete, if they really want to invest nothing in the game. If the game is too hard for you to achieve anything in as is, then why even play it at all.  Eq2 has gone as far as to add easy and hard mode mobs that allow less experienced players to attain gear easily, and progress. </p><p>Personally i play the game for both, which is why i rolled on a PvP server.  Where Olihin says we are trying to keep things seperate, i don't really understand the reasoning behind this.  The game is Eq2, play the game and have the added benefits of being able to contest and kill your fellow factions. Why do we have to cater to the people that have no real interest in the game.</p><p>Obviously things need to be scaled down and adjusted for PvP, but not to this extent. I suggest you just turn Venekor into some care bear server where you take all PvE out of the game...instances raid zones and all...give them a free set of gear and let them go run around and kill eachother and see how long that lasts. At least they would stop polluting our server.  </p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 06:50 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>but there has to be some risk vs. reward added in order to do so.</p><p>Currently there is no loss, the worst pvp player on nagafen can also get the best pvp rewards on nagafen at this time.</p><p>You cannot have the best items in game handed out to everyone without some sort of loss in between aquiring those items or else everyone will just use that path.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">To get PVP Tokens, you must leave immunity and PVP, assuming PVP risk.  </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">To get PVE items, you must go hide in a closed instance in immunity, PVP risk-free.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Currently there is no loss, the worst PVE player can also purchase loot rights to the OP PVE items in the game.  Players without any PVE skills can certainly purchase loot rights to many of these OP items, so the "24-Man Monster Macarena Skillz Competition" is a non-issue for gearing up, never mind the touted ability to x2 and single group some of the epic content.  PVE chests drop plenty of plat to pay for repairs - I make a profit from raiding, armor repair is a non-issue, non-risk for many of us.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Zero PVP risk to achieve the most powerful PVP items?  You cannot have the best PVP items in game handed out to everyone hiding in PVE immunity without some sort of PVP loss in between acquiring those items - earn your PVP gear through PVP.</span></p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 06:54 PM
<p>I'm more then willing to disuss this with you, but you need to come to grips with the fact that the difficuly HM encounters which are rewarding the best gear for pve right now are being aquired by 0-30ish people per server right now.</p><p>If you can make a system that rewards 0-30 people on Nagafen with the best gear in the game due to its difficulty in aquiring it then I can see your point.</p><p>Until then you are just avoiding the reality of the situation</p>

Lourd
08-11-2010, 06:59 PM
<p>Ahem.</p><p><span>What about replacing the 40% flat damage reduction from toughness with a potency reduction mod (up to 100%), along with the pvp crit mit bonus?  </span></p><p><span>edit <em>and by that I mean, full toughness would grant 100% potency mitigation/reduction and 100% pvp crit mitigation INSTEAD of 40% flat dmg reduction and 100% pvp crit mitigation.</em></span></p><p>Then we'll be back to TSO levels of damage (i.e. people will be dieing), but you'll still want to wear the pvp gear over raid gear, because otherwise the potency from the BG/PVE gear will kill you quickly.</p><p>This solves the survivability problem we have now, and keeps pvp gear competitive with raid gear.</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 07:12 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;"> the best gear for pve </span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The key words are right there: "the best gear for <span style="text-decoration: underline;">PVE</span>".  All those <span style="text-decoration: underline;">PVE</span> drops are among the BEST for <span style="text-decoration: underline;">PVE</span>!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP is <span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span> PVE.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE demanded to be best for PVE, and for PVP to have its own separate system - so SOE complied and now we have a slowly evolving PVP system that must begin to award the best gear for PVP through PVP efforts.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Zero PVP risk = zero PVP rewards, so those PVE raid drops really should be flatlined for PVP... but I've eased my position to generously allow a compromise.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP solutions for PVP server issues!</span></p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 07:16 PM
<p>I can no longer tell if you are joking.</p>

Brynhild
08-11-2010, 07:42 PM
<p>Double or triple the amount of crit mit toughness gives (or just remove it and make pvp crit mit the only thing on the armor) so that with a full set we have over 120 crit mit in pvp, no damage reduction at all.</p><p>I think it's worth a shot to do this.  Maybe on test server so we can play with it?</p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 07:46 PM
<p>What the heck do you people not understand about PvP being separate from PvE? How many of you people are posting from PvE servers about PvP server problems?</p><p>PvP REWARDS PvP</p><p>PvE REWARDS PvE</p><p>That's how you cry babies wanted it, now you want it back after they made it this way? Shove off, stop whining and deal with what you wanted in the first place.</p><p>If PvP gear can't trivialize high end pve encounters, then raid gear can't trivialize high end pvp encounters.  Or do you think you're somehow special because you got an item from a mob that people can just buy for plat? You deserve to not put the effort into the pvp side and still be as effective as someone that has put the effort into pvp? No. You don't. Enough of this crap.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 07:49 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I understand you want everyone to be able to compete, but living forever in turtle matches due to toughness is not competing and it wont be long until the vast majority also come to realize this.</p></blockquote><p>Sooner then later I hope</p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 07:55 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I understand you want everyone to be able to compete, but living forever in turtle matches due to toughness is not competing and it wont be long until the vast majority also come to realize this.</p></blockquote><p>Sooner then later I hope</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: large;">REMOVAL OF MORE CONTENT IN '10: THE ONLY STAT THAT MAKES PVP GEAR PVP GEAR.</span></span></p><p>lol you're such a troll.</p>

Toxicz
08-11-2010, 07:56 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Lol at assuming Torrent does alot in pvp. I'm lucky if that procs for 300 damage.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Maybe future PVP weapons need Pestilential Rain III, Blood Ritual II, Earth Drink II?</span></p></blockquote><p>Who are you? do you even pvp? Please post a name and stop being Anon otherwise shut up. I agree with pretty much everything Davionx and Taldier said.</p><p>If your truly a pvp'er you know theirs no such thing as pvp risk anymore, which leads me to believe you have no idea what pvp really is. You keep talking about how pvp weapons need to be as good as raid weapons when pvp weapons are 10x easier/faster to get than the "best" raid weapons. Torrent 2-3 and Pestilential rain 2-3 do at most 300-400 in pvp, yea sure there an encounter wide proc, but let me ask you, how much is 300-400 damage in pvp vs a 2 healer grp, with everyone in the grp at 25-30k hp? It doesn't nothing. Do you even check ACT? or PVP at all? or are you just crying because you can't get some items that others can?</p><p>The one thing you don't understand Ohilin is the unbalance of DPS vs Heals atm. Davionx is a healer, one of the better ones at that, and even he agrees that toughness is completely broken on a healer. With how toughness is atm, healers can heal themselves for 3-7k every 2-10secs, me as a brigand a very well geared brigand i might add, my highest hit on a fully geared out healer/tank with full toughness is around 6-7k every 2 minutes. If you put a stacked grp, meaning chanter, tank, 2 healers, bard, and 1 dps with the toughness capped, that group will never die unless you have one or two raids on them. The other night I was in a group and fought another group with: a tank, bard, chanter, 2 healers, and a dps, BOTH the healers in that grp put up 2.8k HPS and 3k HPS when the HIGHEST DPS was at 1.2k. How is this balanced if the healers can out heal double the dps, not to mention being taunted and CC'd while trying to burn through those healers. The only reason we won that is because the fight lasted so long that eventually another 2 groups came in.</p><p>Ohilin you should listen to what Taldier is saying. Adding more "DPS Mods" such as Crit bonus, potency isn't going to do anything but in-balance the game's pvp mechanics even more. From a logical stand point, don't you think removing the main problem which is toughness would be much faster and easier than covering it up by adding these "DPS mods'?</p><p>Ohilin you're going to do whatever the masses want more than likely which is sad. I just hope you don't start giving all people who cry about stupid [Removed for Content] whatever they want. Please don't make pvp any less fun than it is already.</p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 08:02 PM
<p>I don't buy this crap because I burn healers down on my coercer 1on1 all day server side. I can burn healers down in BG's too, assuming there isn't any taunts being thrown up.</p><p>Before having toughness on my coercer I had literally no chance against anyone who does physical damage, don't tell me to mes/kite/whatever because that's bogus, 5 of the fastest clothy killing classes get 10m teleports, 3 of them get selfcures. You want to take away survivability of people completely, no one will live more then 3 seconds. Have you not fought anyone in the bg who you could clearly tell had no toughness gear before or something?</p><p>If you simply remove toughness you're going to be left with all sorts of new balancing issues, so that's a plan that obviously won't work.</p>

Olihin
08-11-2010, 08:07 PM
<p>I don't think everyone is reading the same things I am...at the same time, some are posting several issues that are only more visible with toughness but not a cause of toughness.    This is like I said, the things that need to be looked at prior to making changes to the only PvP stat we have.  </p><p>Although fun and adds to the post count; creating new threads when you have already been answered here is not necessary.   Please review my posts and if you still have questions, PM me.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large; color: #ff0000;">Olihin</span></p>

Toxicz
08-11-2010, 08:22 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't buy this crap because I burn healers down on my coercer 1on1 all day server side. I can burn healers down in BG's too, assuming there isn't any taunts being thrown up.</p><p>Before having toughness on my coercer I had literally no chance against anyone who does physical damage, don't tell me to mes/kite/whatever because that's bogus, 5 of the fastest clothy killing classes get 10m teleports, 3 of them get selfcures. You want to take away survivability of people completely, no one will live more then 3 seconds. Have you not fought anyone in the bg who you could clearly tell had no toughness gear before or something?</p><p>If you simply remove toughness you're going to be left with all sorts of new balancing issues, so that's a plan that obviously won't work.</p></blockquote><p>Your an idiot. I doubt you can solo burn a decent healer with full toughness by yourself, and yes to answer your question I have ran into people i KNOW don't have toughness on, they die in 2secs. When I say remove toughness I don't mean make it so everyone can be 1 shot in pvp, that's stupid. I'm saying take it back to how TSO worked, UP the crit mit values so that its more viable at this stage in the game. Doing this will add some diversity to the players, which is what makes the game fun. Forcing everyone to be the same isn't fun for anyone, not being able to customize your character the way YOU want too isn't fun. I know many people who will agree, in TSO it was the most balanced pvp i've seen (besides crusaders), and I think if we took it back to that stage it would make everyone much happier, that's all I'm trying to say.</p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 08:25 PM
<p><cite>Olihin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> This is like I said, the things that need to be looked at prior to making changes to the only PvP stat we have.  </p></blockquote><p>Easy, remove it. Bring back the previous pvp stat we had. Crit mit. It was balanced, people had fun. Toughness has ruined pvp.</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 08:26 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Who are you? do you even pvp? Please post a name and stop being Anon otherwise shut up.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Such kind words.  I am who I am, my forum name is the same name I've been using since 2005.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you're truly a raider, you'll know that there is no such thing as PVE risk anymore, which leads me to believe that you are just pretending to be a lame duck in PVP in hopes that Olihin will be trolled into thinking PVE drops need to remain OP in PVP.  Where are the XP% losses leading to de-levelling, the shard runs?  Strats all posted, GC, etc. /yawn.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raiders are free to enjoy the rewards of their safe in immunity PVE drops in PVE, but they should no longer have a free pass towards trivializing PVP encounters.  I suspect it might be confusing to suddenly be faced with the prospect of challenge and competition in PVP, but the easymode gear translating into PVP auto-win needs to remain in PVE.</span></p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 08:29 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Who are you? do you even pvp? Please post a name and stop being Anon otherwise shut up.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Such kind words.  I am who I am, my forum name is the same name I've been using since 2005.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you're truly a raider, you'll know that there is no such thing as PVE risk anymore, which leads me to believe that you are just pretending to be a lame duck in PVP in hopes that Olihin will be trolled into thinking PVE drops need to remain OP in PVP.  Where are the XP% losses leading to de-levelling, the shard runs?  Strats all posted, GC, etc. /yawn.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raiders are free to enjoy the rewards of their safe in immunity PVE drops in PVE, but they should no longer have a free pass towards trivializing PVP encounters.  I suspect it might be confusing to suddenly be faced with the prospect of challenge and competition in PVP, but the easymode gear translating into PVP auto-win needs to remain in PVE.</span></p></blockquote><p>There has not been risk in pvp for years.</p><p>You think the worst pvp on the entire server of Nagafen should get the same rewards as the very best?  because thats how it is right now and has been that way for years</p>

Lourd
08-11-2010, 08:36 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Who are you? do you even pvp? Please post a name and stop being Anon otherwise shut up.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Such kind words.  I am who I am, my forum name is the same name I've been using since 2005.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you're truly a raider, you'll know that there is no such thing as PVE risk anymore, which leads me to believe that you are just pretending to be a lame duck in PVP in hopes that Olihin will be trolled into thinking PVE drops need to remain OP in PVP.  Where are the XP% losses leading to de-levelling, the shard runs?  Strats all posted, GC, etc. /yawn.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVE raiders are free to enjoy the rewards of their safe in immunity PVE drops in PVE, but they should no longer have a free pass towards trivializing PVP encounters.  I suspect it might be confusing to suddenly be faced with the prospect of challenge and competition in PVP, but the easymode gear translating into PVP auto-win needs to remain in PVE.</span></p></blockquote><p>There has not been risk in pvp for years.</p><p>You think the worst pvp on the entire server of Nagafen should get the same rewards as the very best?  because thats how it is right now and has been that way for years</p></blockquote><p>Aren't all of your characters on Oasis and Mistmoore?</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 08:39 PM
<p>That is correct</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 08:42 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You think the worst pvp on the entire server of Nagafen should get the same rewards as the very best?  because thats how it is right now and has been that way for years</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Years ago, PVP was pretty lame for most classes that weren't scouts - the worst PVP on the server got next to nothing because they were healers stuck in groups and the solo scouts were EverScouting the cheesedip at the PVP party.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Now we are evolving to a PVP system where PVP players can PVP almost any class to be competitive (sucks to be a summoner I hear), instead of PVE raiders cloistering themselves in closed PVE instances in safety while they farm.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP solutions for PVP server issues ftw.</span></p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 08:47 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't buy this crap because I burn healers down on my coercer 1on1 all day server side. I can burn healers down in BG's too, assuming there isn't any taunts being thrown up.</p><p>Before having toughness on my coercer I had literally no chance against anyone who does physical damage, don't tell me to mes/kite/whatever because that's bogus, 5 of the fastest clothy killing classes get 10m teleports, 3 of them get selfcures. You want to take away survivability of people completely, no one will live more then 3 seconds. Have you not fought anyone in the bg who you could clearly tell had no toughness gear before or something?</p><p>If you simply remove toughness you're going to be left with all sorts of new balancing issues, so that's a plan that obviously won't work.</p></blockquote><p>Your an idiot. I doubt you can solo burn a decent healer with full toughness by yourself, and yes to answer your question I have ran into people i KNOW don't have toughness on, they die in 2secs. When I say remove toughness I don't mean make it so everyone can be 1 shot in pvp, that's stupid. I'm saying take it back to how TSO worked, UP the crit mit values so that its more viable at this stage in the game. Doing this will add some diversity to the players, which is what makes the game fun. Forcing everyone to be the same isn't fun for anyone, not being able to customize your character the way YOU want too isn't fun. I know many people who will agree, in TSO it was the most balanced pvp i've seen (besides crusaders), and I think if we took it back to that stage it would make everyone much happier, that's all I'm trying to say.</p></blockquote><p>That's curious, in TSO I had a capped inq with only 162 aa and with just his epic he could tank 2-3 scouts with a few mages without breaking a sweat. Maybe you're a bit dilluted into thinking that the zerg with 60 people beating on 1 guy burned him down fast, but that's not how the game mechanics were set up.</p>

Crismorn
08-11-2010, 08:54 PM
<p>None of which can be verified because your anon.</p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 08:57 PM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't buy this crap because I burn healers down on my coercer 1on1 all day server side. I can burn healers down in BG's too, assuming there isn't any taunts being thrown up.</p><p>Before having toughness on my coercer I had literally no chance against anyone who does physical damage, don't tell me to mes/kite/whatever because that's bogus, 5 of the fastest clothy killing classes get 10m teleports, 3 of them get selfcures. You want to take away survivability of people completely, no one will live more then 3 seconds. Have you not fought anyone in the bg who you could clearly tell had no toughness gear before or something?</p><p>If you simply remove toughness you're going to be left with all sorts of new balancing issues, so that's a plan that obviously won't work.</p></blockquote><p>Your an idiot. I doubt you can solo burn a decent healer with full toughness by yourself, and yes to answer your question I have ran into people i KNOW don't have toughness on, they die in 2secs. When I say remove toughness I don't mean make it so everyone can be 1 shot in pvp, that's stupid. I'm saying take it back to how TSO worked, UP the crit mit values so that its more viable at this stage in the game. Doing this will add some diversity to the players, which is what makes the game fun. Forcing everyone to be the same isn't fun for anyone, not being able to customize your character the way YOU want too isn't fun. I know many people who will agree, in TSO it was the most balanced pvp i've seen (besides crusaders), and I think if we took it back to that stage it would make everyone much happier, that's all I'm trying to say.</p></blockquote><p>That's curious, in TSO I had a capped inq with only 162 aa and with just his epic he could tank 2-3 scouts with a few mages without breaking a sweat. Maybe you're a bit dilluted into thinking that the zerg with 60 people beating on 1 guy burned him down fast, but that's not how the game mechanics were set up.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Are you not contradicting yourself now? You say you can burn full toughness geared healers on your coercer but back in TSO on your Inquis a few scouts/mages couldn't burn you down? I quote you regarding removing toughness <span style="color: #ff0000;">"</span></span><span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">You want to take away survivability of people completely, no one will live more then 3 seconds.</span><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">"</span> </span></span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">So tell me, which is it? You seemed to have no problem living for more than 3 seconds against a couple people on your inquisitor back before toughness was even thought of.</span></span></span></span></p><p>Edit: Had to change font color, these forums hate me.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #ffffff;"></span></span></span></p>

Lourd
08-11-2010, 09:01 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That is correct</p></blockquote><p>I looked up your swashys gear before you edited out your sig.  If you can get any raid gear you want but you choose to still wear full BG gear, why is half his stuff brellium mastercrafted?   I think you's TROOOOLing.</p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 09:04 PM
<p>According to eq2players, his swash is only wearing 3 pieces of brellium mastercrafted. 2 rings (Buff is decent for a new/upcoming toon). Thats hardly half of his gear..</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 09:05 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>None of which can be verified because your anon.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Who, me?  If so, why should I do all of the heavy lifting for you?  You have yet to justify why you think bluebie PVE should be entitled to freebie PVP godmode gear for zero PVP effort.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I have been posting my names in various screenies in plenty of threads for months, perhaps you might have success if you try lurking moar!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/carebearraiderinthecrowdSmall.jpg" /></span></p><p><em>"...Neskonlith discovers another bluebie in the crowd..."</em></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Reroll on Nagafen as a QQ, and we'll see you out on the Warfields one of these days.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Freeport Forever!</span></p>

BlueEternal
08-11-2010, 09:08 PM
<p>I was waiting for Nesk to start with his off-topic picture-fest. Maybe we can get some of those pictures you like making with that same troll head you've been using for 3 years!</p>

Neskonlith
08-11-2010, 09:11 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was waiting for Nesk to start with his off-topic picture-fest. Maybe we can get some of those pictures you like making with that same troll head you've been using for 3 years!</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you look closely, you might notice that this is a <em>new</em> troll head!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p>

Lourd
08-11-2010, 09:17 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to eq2players, his swash is only wearing 3 pieces of brellium mastercrafted. 2 rings (Buff is decent for a new/upcoming toon). Thats hardly half of his gear..</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, the rest of it is legendary instance gear....  Wear whatever you want, but don't be like "Yeah I can get all this nice raid gear, but I wear the BG armor cause it's so much better' , when it's not true.</p>

Ralpmet
08-11-2010, 09:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Are you not contradicting yourself now? You say you can burn full toughness geared healers on your coercer but back in TSO on your Inquis a few scouts/mages couldn't burn you down? I quote you regarding removing toughness <span style="color: #ff0000;">"</span></span><span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">You want to take away survivability of people completely, no one will live more then 3 seconds.</span><span><span style="color: #ff0000;">"</span> </span></span><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #ffffff;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">So tell me, which is it? You seemed to have no problem living for more than 3 seconds against a couple people on your inquisitor back before toughness was even thought of.</span></span></span></span></p><p>Edit: Had to change font color, these forums hate me.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #ffffff;"></span></span></span></p></blockquote><p>You're misunderstanding me and relating apples to oranges. I'm saying that removing toughness would absolutely kill all of the already struggling classes, inquisitors have always been and are now far from struggling. It's far easier to alter the amount of toughness gained by tiers of armor to scale fairness than to remove a mechanic designed to help those struggling classes.</p><p>And had I run into myself in tso it would've been an epic fight. If someone was asking for proof of my inq, it's ralpmet, ~3k kills-~900 deaths, solo and didn't do the whole zergfest til the last 2 weeks to ensure I had the gear pre-expac. I plved him to 85, but i put getting his conversion on the backburner and he's still in the same gear he was in pre-expac pretty much as far as I can tell. </p>

Oakum
08-11-2010, 09:23 PM
<p><cite></cite></p><p>I have been burned one on one by several classes with full bg gear, both scout and mage. Wearing leather I would get one or two shotted by any class with a big attack if it were not for toughness.  Now, for plate and chain wearing healers, obviously they will do better then I will, especially with clerics and steadfast. Yes wardens do have some deathsaves and a 10 sec immunity to all damage but they are on timers of 3 and 10 min so are a matter of luck if up when needed and the death saves usually dont do more then delay death by 2 seconds, lol. </p><p>From this prospective where with toughness I can actually survive more the -20 seconds when any other non healer/guard class targets me, it would not be fun to go in to a bg without it. Es[pecially when I can be stun locked, stifled and interupted for as long as 20 seconds by classes with the right abilities and all the temps and clickies are already down and signets ect used up.</p><p>Turtle fights are only turtle fights because people are not smart enough to find the weakest geared players and take them out one by one and therefore, their group buffs/heals/powerfeeds ect until the "unkillables" are suddenly out of help and killed in 3 to 5 hits by the dps classes attacking them. That is dps, not healer/tank/utility classes. The skill and tactics are finding the ones you can take out and doing so rather then blindly attacking the sk/cleric combo which are pretty much unkillable when you add a few other buffs and a second healer or communicating to time big burst dps onto the healer or tank to take them out.</p><p>Give me a tank that taunts and we can last several minutes against 3+ dps. Take away the tank and I can only hope that I dont get chain stunned and burnt down in 10 seconds or less. Of course knowing my weaknesses, I look for gear to combat my squishiness in leather including proc gear.  The problem with proc gear is it is procs. One time i might mitigage/block or out heal the incoming dps, the next its 10 seconds or less watching 20k+ health jump down to nothing. Luck of the draw but I just wish the great god of the RNg didnt hate me so much. My "dice" are the joke of the PVE guild I raid with, lol.</p><p>So in PVP, why not make PVP gear the best on PVP servers only. Makes sense to me. Letting them be brought to BG's though would affect MY game since BG's are also part of the PVE world now and I kill time with them doing the daily quests. If it cant be gotten on a blue server but only a red server then it should not be in BG's. Since Red servers can do all PVE content, the same argument does not apply the other way around since everything available on blue is available on red.</p><p>Should toughness be removed for PVP servers and bg's? Heres another way of asking the same question. Should players be one or two shotted by any high hitting class before they can even engage them or while stun locked, stifled  ect? Where would the fun be in that UNLESS you were one of the classes that could do that. The others it wouldnt be fun for.</p>

Taldier
08-11-2010, 10:30 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You think the worst pvp on the entire server of Nagafen should get the same rewards as the very best?  because thats how it is right now and has been that way for years</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Years ago, PVP was pretty lame for most classes that weren't scouts - the worst PVP on the server got next to nothing because they were healers stuck in groups and the solo scouts were EverScouting the cheesedip at the PVP party.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Now we are evolving to a PVP system where PVP players can PVP almost any class to be competitive (sucks to be a summoner I hear), instead of PVE raiders cloistering themselves in closed PVE instances in safety while they farm.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP solutions for PVP server issues ftw.</span></p></blockquote><p>Simply making sure that people get rewards even if they suck is not the same as them "being competitive".  If a class needs balanced that is an individual issue to that class.  Making the game so easy that everyone gets free stuff "just for trying" isnt the solution.</p><p>This system, that makes it impossible for anyone to die unless they are swarmed by overwhelming numbers while simultaneously encouraging people to zerg in the largest swarm they can possibly form, is destroying any sense of competitive pvp in eq2.</p>

Zacarus
08-11-2010, 10:52 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In my opinion PvP is a added compontent to Eq2...it wasn't meant to be an entirely new game.  I don't understand why people come to this game and ask for handouts to compete, if they really want to invest nothing in the game. If the game is too hard for you to achieve anything in as is, then why even play it at all.  Eq2 has gone as far as to add easy and hard mode mobs that allow less experienced players to attain gear easily, and progress. </p><p>Personally i play the game for both, which is why i rolled on a PvP server.  Where Olihin says we are trying to keep things seperate, i don't really understand the reasoning behind this.  The game is Eq2, play the game and have the added benefits of being able to contest and kill your fellow factions. Why do we have to cater to the people that have no real interest in the game.</p><p>Obviously things need to be scaled down and adjusted for PvP, but not to this extent. I suggest you just turn Venekor into some care bear server where you take all PvE out of the game...instances raid zones and all...give them a free set of gear and let them go run around and kill eachother and see how long that lasts. At least they would stop polluting our server.  </p></blockquote><p><p>1.) I like the fact I can enjoy my precious nights with my family, and play according to *MY* schedule, which is not routine, not regular, and not planned.  </p><p>2.) I like the fact I am not beholden to anyone in this game.  I have zero responsibilities, zero demands on my time, zero commitments.  There is no one telling me what to do, and I tell no one what to do.  Yet I can acquire excellent gear.</p><p>I do not feel that gear has been, "handed," to me.  I have invested countless hours in bgs.  To me, there is no difference in my hours invested, and someone who raids, except for the two points above.</p><p>To me, raiding is not hard.  It just takes time and dedication.  The same two attributes bgs take.</p><p>For the record, I do not stand around in bg's and collect tokens.  I take every single moment to give every ounce of energy and ability I have.  For many of my toons, I am almost always on top of the relevant category.  Also, I receive compliments from fellow players about my contribution.  This is how i approach bg, questing, open pvp, and when i used to raid, that too.</p><p>So, while I understand raiders are upset at the present turn of events, ie, "toughness gear is as good as, or better than, gear acquired by raiding," for open world pvp, for me its great.</p></p>

Toxicz
08-11-2010, 11:10 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You think the worst pvp on the entire server of Nagafen should get the same rewards as the very best?  because thats how it is right now and has been that way for years</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Years ago, PVP was pretty lame for most classes that weren't scouts - the worst PVP on the server got next to nothing because they were healers stuck in groups and the solo scouts were EverScouting the cheesedip at the PVP party.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Now we are evolving to a PVP system where PVP players can PVP almost any class to be competitive (sucks to be a summoner I hear), instead of PVE raiders cloistering themselves in closed PVE instances in safety while they farm.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP solutions for PVP server issues ftw.</span></p></blockquote><p><strong><span style="font-size: small;">Simply making sure that people get rewards even if they suck is not the same as them "being competitive".  If a class needs balanced that is an individual issue to that class.  Making the game so easy that everyone gets free stuff "just for trying" isnt the solution.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="font-size: small;">This system, that makes it impossible for anyone to die unless they are swarmed by overwhelming numbers while simultaneously encouraging people to zerg in the largest swarm they can possibly form, is destroying any sense of competitive pvp in eq2.</span></strong></p></blockquote><p>QFE 100 times.</p>

Jeht
08-12-2010, 12:01 AM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That is correct</p></blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] off of our forums you pve scrubnugget</p>

Toxicz
08-12-2010, 12:13 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That is correct</p></blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] off of our forums you pve scrubnugget</p></blockquote><p>It's pretty sad when a "pve scrubnugget" knows what is really best for pvp, When the mass majority of the pvp server has no clue.</p><p>Funny stuff isn't it.</p>

Corydonn
08-12-2010, 03:47 AM
<p>I think a reason some classes seem so overpowered is because of the Stonewill/Ward/Heal procs. Any player can stack about 3 or 4 Stonewill items with a bit of toughness and be as survivable as I am or any tank really, I've had warlocks outparse me in heals on the other team of Gears with a few of the procs and even Vymm match my heals on the heal parse in a Ganak. I could probably become near unkillable stall half a raid in any situation if I stacked more of the gear instead of only using 1 piece of Stonewill 3 at a major cost of damage output. I'm fairly certain these procs are also bugged to proc multiple times on an AE attack just as Torrent was before the update.</p><p>Another broken proc seems to be the Blood Ritual/Blood Symphony items. Even soloing herioc instances the items will critically heal myself for 3-6k respectfully.</p><p>Taking a look at these may improve the killability of some classes and bring the "killing" back to the battlegrounds as they say. Perhaps make a proc that disables procs from occuring on the other player or stick the effect on a few CAs/Spells in PVP combat.</p>

PeaSy1
08-12-2010, 04:29 AM
Id hate to see how much my inquiz could stand up to if i actually grinded out some toughness gear. I wear 2 pieces of toughness gear and its not even for the toughness one is for haste (tank plate) and other is for mutilation proc for fighting other healers.

BlueEternal
08-12-2010, 04:45 AM
<p>You're still a noobface in my book Dudoes <3</p>

Faith_heals
08-12-2010, 07:01 AM
<p>Nerf heals by 50% in pvp will help alot of this problem. Honestly healers are the issue with full toughness. Then mix them with a tank with toughness and taunts....its bad. Cut heals by 50% or more in pvp and the tank will drop with dps on em and so will the healer.</p>

Thinwizzy
08-12-2010, 12:17 PM
<p><cite>Faith_heals wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nerf heals by 50% in pvp will help alot of this problem. Honestly healers are the issue with full toughness. Then mix them with a tank with toughness and taunts....its bad. Cut heals by 50% or more in pvp and the tank will drop with dps on em and so will the healer.</p></blockquote><p>This is the sort of thining that I do not get.  The common denominator in all this is toughness.  All this attempts to do is force everyone onto the same level where we are all clones wearing the same stuff.</p><p>This is a MMO.  I think the reason most of us play this type of game is because of the ability to upgrade your character and make it unique.  This is an important part of this game.  The more time you spend playing and working towards improving your character, the better it becomes.  Forcing everyone into the same gear set, especially when that set is so easily earned, completely destroys this aspect of the game.  This contributes to people getting bored and quitting, which leads to servers being closed and merged.</p><p>I understand that some people do not have the time and/or desire to play this game enough to be highly competitive in pvp and pve both.  There is nothing wrong with this.  What is wrong and very detrimental to this game, is when these people start to get rewarded on the same level as those who strive to accomplish everything that is possible in the game. </p><p>We are not trying to take away pvp gear.  We are not trying to nerf pvp gear.  We are trying to improve everyone's options and freedom of choice when it comes to gearing and playing their character.  We are trying to return to the days when PvP and PvE happily coexisted on our server, and even fed each other to make both stronger.  This would breathe some much needed life back into our server.</p>

Lourd
08-12-2010, 12:44 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Faith_heals wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nerf heals by 50% in pvp will help alot of this problem. Honestly healers are the issue with full toughness. Then mix them with a tank with toughness and taunts....its bad. Cut heals by 50% or more in pvp and the tank will drop with dps on em and so will the healer.</p></blockquote><p>This is the sort of thining that I do not get.  The common denominator in all this is toughness.  All this attempts to do is force everyone onto the same level where we are all clones wearing the same stuff.</p><p>This is a MMO.  I think the reason most of us play this type of game is because of the ability to upgrade your character and make it unique.  This is an important part of this game.  The more time you spend playing and working towards improving your character, the better it becomes.  Forcing everyone into the same gear set, especially when that set is so easily earned, completely destroys this aspect of the game.  This contributes to people getting bored and quitting, which leads to servers being closed and merged.</p><p>I understand that some people do not have the time and/or desire to play this game enough to be highly competitive in pvp and pve both.  There is nothing wrong with this.  What is wrong and very detrimental to this game, is when these people start to get rewarded on the same level as those who strive to accomplish everything that is possible in the game. </p><p>We are not trying to take away pvp gear.  We are not trying to nerf pvp gear.  We are trying to improve everyone's options and freedom of choice when it comes to gearing and playing their character.  We are trying to return to the days when PvP and PvE happily coexisted on our server, and even fed each other to make both stronger.  This would breathe some much needed life back into our server.</p></blockquote><p>I don't exactly remember the reason we had to have toughness on the pvp gear, but I think it was because they needed something to offset the huge dps gains we were getting with potency, crit bonus and superprocs on everything piece of gear.</p><p>If they made potency and such not work in pvp, then maybe we wouldn't need toughness, true. But it's there, and I don't think it's going away.</p><p>But there two very good reasons for keeping toughness around.</p><p>1) It's a way to offsets the dps increase from our new gear and AAs (Predator's Final Trick I'm looking at you). </p><p>2) It allows them to separate out the pvp and pve gear. </p><p>Frankly, the raid gear that people have been using in pvp for all of these years has been out of wack.  It's designed for fighting things with millions of health and sickening damage output, not players, and not even heroic instances (who the heck needs to group when people can run zones solo).    Trying to balance out pvp has been a nightmare 4 years in the making because of the gear variable.  But if they hold gear as a constant, then they can fix class balance issues.   Then they can add systems that really reward pvp ability, like Battleground Seasons. Because if we're all wearing the same gear, then the winners are winning because of skill and not because they used their gear as a crutch to carry them on the field.   </p><p>But because everyone has to be a special snowflake in EQ2, maybe they could do something with blue adorns.  Add new blue adorns tailored for pvp.  For example, blue adorns that add in combat run speed, or something that makes one's detriments harder to cure off, or melee/spell reach, or reactive procs that have a small chance to teleport your attacker 20meters away, or dispel procs,  or stuff that modifies player spells/CAs with an eye toward pvp -- something that makes the bruisers eye gouge blur their opponents vision, for example.  </p><p>There's plenty they could do with the adornment system in pvp to let everyone mod their character as they see fit.</p><p><em>edit  more fun with adorn ideas:</em></p><ul><li>What about a blue mod for scouts that lets them be truly stealthy again in pvp?  Can't see them even with a butterfly totem until they're within 10ms type thing.    Or, if you don't like that, what about -tracking mods for open world sneakiness? They already have that mod in the game and available on some old ROK jewelry.</li><li>Possess minion adornment for summoners.  Make it up the duraction, increase dps of the pet, and a give it nasty AE upon death of the pet.  Lets them have a little fun from a distance.  Can even make the pet say, "Assuming direct control." for pop culture digs.</li><li>Necro fear kiting was fun in eq1. We could bring that back by making a mod for fear that lets them do dps without breaking the fear, or at least do more dps without breaking the fear.</li><li>Tainted heals?  Something that has a chance to very briefly turn heals into damage?</li><li>Maybe troubs could get a mod that forces mezzed people to dance in place for x seconds, even if cured early</li><li>Warlock rift: how about a mod that triples the knockup height? Basically a stun with style that can't be cured off.</li><li>Templar Sanctuary mod that adds a temporary zone of repulsion, knocking any hostile players away.</li><li>Guardian gut kick adornment that punts the target back 30meters. Gets rid of a pesky scout or healer.</li><li>Guardian Sphere mod that pulls all hostile players within x meters right on top of the guard and forces them to target him for x seconds.</li></ul><p>     None of those would really do much good in pve, but they would liven up pvp a bit.</p>

Crismorn
08-12-2010, 03:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>According to eq2players, his swash is only wearing 3 pieces of brellium mastercrafted. 2 rings (Buff is decent for a new/upcoming toon). Thats hardly half of his gear..</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, the rest of it is legendary instance gear....  Wear whatever you want, but don't be like "Yeah I can get all this nice raid gear, but I wear the BG armor cause it's so much better' , when it's not true.</p></blockquote><p>I was talking about my Inquisitor, my swashie is an alt on a different server and yes his gear is not very good yet.</p><p>But its ok since I'm also not very good at playing the swash yet, soon he will be a beast I'm sure</p>