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View Full Version : A Reasoned Critique on PvP and Immunities


Ranc
07-23-2010, 05:36 PM
<p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">The recent solicitation for feedback started the wheels turning in my head about the state of PvP as it exists today on Nagafen and where it could be going in the future.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">In particular I believe a focus on the following areas is essential to the long term growth and retention of the Nagafen playerbase:</span></span></p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore"><span style="font-size: small;">·</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">         </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">Immunity as a game mechanic.</span></span></p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore"><span style="font-size: small;">·</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">         </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">PvP as a social activity (sense of community).</span></span></p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore"><span style="font-size: small;">·</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">         </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">PvP Itemization.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 0.5in"><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"> </span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><em><span style="color: #4f81bd;"><span style="font-family: Cambria;"><span style="font-size: small;">Immunity as a game mechanic</span></span></span></em></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">What is the purpose of immunity? On the surface it would appear to encourage fairness and reduce griefing, but in the modern game environment it exists largely as a way to get free tokens. How can we retain the original spirit of immunity while removing the exploitive aspects?</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">I would suggest a small change to immunities. If we were to keep the timers in place as they are, but only have immunity apply to people on your /recent pvp list it would discourage griefing, promote fairness, and remove a key vector towards exploitive token gathering. </span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">Hand-in-hand with this would be the auto selection of the highlighted revive option if no action is taken by the player for 60 seconds after dying. Going AFK would now carry a significant risk, as you are making yourself fodder for the enemy team.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><em><span style="color: #4f81bd;"><span style="font-family: Cambria;"><span style="font-size: small;">PvP as a social activity (sense of community)</span></span></span></em></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">Every large scale study of MMO retention has shown that the number one reason players stay with a game is the sense of community. In essence MMOs were the first social networks. PvP servers should embrace this identity, growing closer to the facebook of combat than the largely anonymous interactions we have currently.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">There are a few things we could do to encourage the social aspect of Nagafen:</span></span></p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore"><span style="font-size: small;">·</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">         </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">Promote working with your team by partitioning objectives during Warfields by level ranges. Get us working together with people in our own tier. Right now the server consists largely of players that stick to their own guilds, or solo their way to T9. Grouping is almost non-existent at lower tiers and needs to be encouraged.</span></span></p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;"></span></span> </p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore"><span style="font-size: small;">·</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">         </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">Provide incentives to holding territory. For example, a zone wide buff that grants +25% experience if you can meet certain objectives, like say completing PvP specific quests within a zone (Kill 50 players in Stonebrunt etc).</span></span></p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;"></span></span> </p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore"><span style="font-size: small;">·</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">        </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">Allow cross team chat. This is an idea we took from WoW that should have been left on the table. EQ1 had it and thrived with it. The server is mature enough to handle the chat. Perhaps a start would be opening up the level chats to all teams, while keeping cross team tells blocked. Taunting, boasts and lively discourse all encourage a sense of community and ownership.</span></span></p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;"></span></span> </p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore"><span style="font-size: small;">·</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">        </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">Bring back meaningful titles! This one is simple, put back the old</span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;"> title code with the option to disable your PvP title if you see fit.</span></span></p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;"></span></span> </p><p style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 38.3pt; mso-add-space: auto; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol;"><span style="mso-list: Ignore"><span style="font-size: small;">·</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">        </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Calibri;"><span style="font-size: small;">Bounties! Allow us to place bounties on other players. For instance, a player could spend 20 tokens to place a 20 token (or plat) bounty on another player’s head. Have bounties over a certain boundary be announced to the entire server.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"> </span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><em><span style="color: #4f81bd;"><span style="font-family: Cambria;"><span style="font-size: small;">PvP Itemization</span></span></span></em></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">There are issues with the current itemization. PvP gear is largely a copy of the BG gear with old equipment available on the vintage vendor. This lack of itemization combined with the relative strength of toughness make competing in non-pvp gear unrealistic. Combine this with the 1 or maybe 2 choices of gear per slot and pretty soon the ability to have a unique character is gone.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">A quick fix would be to halve the strength of toughness across the board. This would make some non-PvP gear optimal for certain classes, while still allowing players to achieve decent gear through PvP.</span></span></p>

Wytie
07-23-2010, 05:48 PM
<p><cite>Rancar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Calibri;"> </span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><em><span style="color: #4f81bd;"><span style="font-family: Cambria;"><span style="font-size: small;">PvP Itemization</span></span></span></em></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">There are issues with the current itemization. PvP gear is largely a copy of the BG gear with old equipment available on the vintage vendor. This lack of itemization combined with the relative strength of toughness make competing in non-pvp gear unrealistic. Combine this with the 1 or maybe 2 choices of gear per slot and pretty soon the ability to have a unique character is gone.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">A quick fix would be to halve the strength of toughness across the board. This would make some non-PvP gear optimal for certain classes, while still allowing players to achieve decent gear through PvP.</span></span></p></blockquote><p>I couldnt agree with you more.</p><p>I have a full set of PVP/BG gear I think its kinda lame that there isnt much of a choice, its toughness gear = you are at pvp good.</p><p>I kinda miss being able to mix and match ideal pieces as it is now toughness rules all.</p><p>Its way to powerful, classes with full sets are dam near unkillable if they know what they are doing. Then if you dont have it you get 1 shotted lol</p>

Nemas Ravenor
07-23-2010, 06:11 PM
<p>You want MORE community?  Have you ever spent any large amount of time in level 80-89 chat?  Or 1-9?  My god man, the last thing I want is MORE quality with these people.  I have half of Freeport on ignore as it is. </p>

Ranc
07-23-2010, 06:29 PM
<p>Yes, I want more community. The game has basically de-volved to soloing and WF invite spam.</p><p>Bring back the social aspect. Give us a reason to log on, form friendships, and do interesting things! I don't care about logging on for personal gain, I want to have fun with friends. I want to look forward to helping newbies, taunting enemies, and reveling in the social aspect of gaming.</p>

Taldier
07-23-2010, 06:31 PM
<p><cite>Nemas Ravenor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You want MORE community?  Have you ever spent any large amount of time in level 80-89 chat?  Or 1-9?  My god man, the last thing I want is MORE quality with these people.  I have half of Freeport on ignore as it is. </p></blockquote><p>^ The only people left that I honestly want to kill are the annoying people I have to listen to on my own faction.  Wtb ffa!</p><p>Serious note, I do wish they would take down the chat barrier, then I could find out which q's actually deserve to die.  Killing people who annoy you is far more personally satisfying than killing faceless people you dont know tbh.</p>

Ol
07-23-2010, 10:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rancar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: small;"> </span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><em><span style="color: #4f81bd;"><span style="font-family: Cambria;"><span style="font-size: small;">PvP Itemization</span></span></span></em></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">There are issues with the current itemization. PvP gear is largely a copy of the BG gear with old equipment available on the vintage vendor. This lack of itemization combined with the relative strength of toughness make competing in non-pvp gear unrealistic. Combine this with the 1 or maybe 2 choices of gear per slot and pretty soon the ability to have a unique character is gone.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">A quick fix would be to halve the strength of toughness across the board. This would make some non-PvP gear optimal for certain classes, while still allowing players to achieve decent gear through PvP.</span></span></p></blockquote><p>I couldnt agree with you more.</p><p>I have a full set of PVP/BG gear I think its kinda lame that there isnt much of a choice, its toughness gear = you are at pvp good.</p><p>I kinda miss being able to mix and match ideal pieces as it is now toughness rules all.</p><p>Its way to powerful, classes with full sets are dam near unkillable if they know what they are doing. Then if you dont have it you get 1 shotted lol</p></blockquote><p>Really, they should just combine all crit mit again, like in tso. No pvp only crit mit, should just be crit mit that works in PVP and PVE</p>

Ranc
07-24-2010, 09:57 AM
<p>They would still need to re-visit the itemization even if they merged the crit mit, but it would be better than what we have now. Halving the value of toughness should be a single variable in the DB (one would hope so at least), so it should be easier from a cost perspective to impliment.</p><p>Speaking of itemization, one "quick" fix would be to reduce healing by the amount of toughness on the person getting healed. That would take care of so many problems in one shot.</p>

Toxicz
07-24-2010, 10:45 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rancar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Calibri;"> </span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><em><span style="color: #4f81bd;"><span style="font-family: Cambria;"><span style="font-size: small;">PvP Itemization</span></span></span></em></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">There are issues with the current itemization. PvP gear is largely a copy of the BG gear with old equipment available on the vintage vendor. This lack of itemization combined with the relative strength of toughness make competing in non-pvp gear unrealistic. Combine this with the 1 or maybe 2 choices of gear per slot and pretty soon the ability to have a unique character is gone.</span></span></p><p style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">A quick fix would be to halve the strength of toughness across the board. This would make some non-PvP gear optimal for certain classes, while still allowing players to achieve decent gear through PvP.</span></span></p></blockquote><p>I couldnt agree with you more.</p><p>I have a full set of PVP/BG gear I think its kinda lame that there isnt much of a choice, its toughness gear = you are at pvp good.</p><p>I kinda miss being able to mix and match ideal pieces as it is now toughness rules all.</p><p>Its way to powerful, classes with full sets are dam near unkillable if they know what they are doing. Then if you dont have it you get 1 shotted lol</p></blockquote><p>Really, they should just combine all crit mit again, like in tso. No pvp only crit mit, should just be crit mit that works in PVP and PVE</p></blockquote><p>I agree with some of the idea's the OP made. If i had to make some idea's of my own I'd say</p><p>1. Take out toughness all together and just bring back Crit mit like it was in TSO.</p><p>    Reasons: With how much toughness/pvp crit mit people can manage to get now days fights against these people are almost not even worth having. In TSO fights could become quite annoying, but nothing compared to how it is now, if 2 stacked groups fought and they all had full pvp gear, the fight would not end.</p><p>2. Fix how immunity works and change the immunity spots/reduce them.</p><p>    Reasons: Immunity has always been a problem in pvp imo and a source of lag. Having immunity in your Guild Hall or Main City is fine, but having a place in every single zone where someone can just go sit afk, or somewhere for the leeches to sit until the right time comes for them to get that one hit on someone for fame or a writ update. Change it so that only main city's and GH's have immunity, make all the other "towns" in open world something like what TG is.</p><p>3. Make pvp more challenging and bring back fame.</p><p>    Reasons: Fame made pvp frustrating at times, but also made it very competitive, which is what most players on a pvp server play for. In current state of the pvp system, it is nothing more than to see how fast players can zerg for there writ updates, instead of it taking pvp skill. Make pvp gear very hard to get, but at the same time make it VERY worth getting.</p><p>These are just some of the things i could think of on the spot. I think personally if these changes were brought to pvp it would a step in the right direction.</p>

EndevorX
07-27-2010, 04:16 AM
<p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I've always supported cross-team chat, but I think there's some bureacracy lurking in SOE that is blocking this innovation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">A stark contrast to EQ2 and other MMOs is that fact that it has public chat channels, and this is a lot of why I enjoy playing it over other games, because you get acquainted and familiar with the personalities of regulars.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Essentially halving the population PvPers are exposed to is a terrible detriment to the health of such a small community as ours already is.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">But, in regard to your supported revisions for immunity, PvP ranks, and warfields rewards, I'm pretty sure my agreement on this is already apparent given my thread. Pshh to players making new threads to say the same thing! =]</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">For itemization, I don't think halving the potency of toughness will remedy that situation at all.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">In this aspect, I think there simply need to be a lot more valuable contested content.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Making a contested version of all instances would work, and maybe heavily revising loot and encounters in the Hole would be a temporary remedy.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">In the next expansion, I would hope there to be AT LEAST 5-10 VERY thorough, expansive contested dungeons that truly instill a sense of a mysterious trek.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">There are soOoo many crazy things you can do with dungeons, and I just haven't seen that novel, haywire maze of tunnels and caves that makes roleplaying games nostalgic.</span></p>

EQ2Player
07-27-2010, 01:59 PM
<p><cite>Rancar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, I want more community. The game has basically de-volved to soloing and WF invite spam.</p><p>Bring back the social aspect. Give us a reason to log on, form friendships, and do interesting things! <span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>I don't care about logging on for personal gain</strong></span>, I want to have fun with friends. I want to look forward to helping newbies, taunting enemies, and reveling in the social aspect of gaming.</p></blockquote><p>This is the same mistake DAOC made, continues to make, and folks on forums complain about it. That game got too involved in personal rewards, instead of Realm (City for EQ2) global objectives, gains, and the like. Oddly, that game started off just fine with Realm Relic's and keeps...but turned to Realm Ranks (Personal Character Achievement) instead of creating in-game Realm (city) objectives and accomplishments for the community.</p><p>It just makes everyone, whether they want to be or  not, invest in themselves without regard for the City/Faction or a guild as there is no reason to do so. These online games are so competitive as is, that if you only make the rewards/objective as personal character advancement, the community becomes cold and icy.</p><p>These PVP games (Or wannabe PVP games like EQ2) forget they're developing for an online community, and make all the objectives as if it is a stand-alone game. Warfields is a rudimentary foundation for a move closer towards a community goal. But, its rewards are targeted at the personal level, rather than the City / Faction. Mistake...</p><p>Nice OP btw...</p>