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View Full Version : what really killed pvp.


ailen
06-30-2010, 12:28 PM
<p>first let me say I've been on Nagafen since it launched.  Sure I took breaks, but I've always come back to "try out the new changes" and I can say without a doubt this game is in a sad state.   I have been one of those people to talk about how people don't pvp anymore, but honestly after reading a post and realizing people really didn't PVP before.</p><p>This game has always been a chase for gear.  People have always raided for better gear to show it off, to use it to gain an advantage in PVP. This simple fact has always been true, even for myself when that's all I did was PVP nonstop all night every night.</p><p>If you really look back on the game, you look at what really caused the decline in PVP.  I'd have to say Kunark and the overpowered PVP gear.  Maybe somewhat in EoF.  When PVP rewards that were halfway decent were introduced, people focused more on the PVP.  However, back then the game was much smaller.  You HAD to go out to PVP, you had to form good groups to go out, or you had to be a scout. </p><p>Kunark.  I thought that expansion was one of the best thought out PVE wise, large zones, environment changes when moving about to different parts of the zone, a huge amount of content a person could complete solo.   I think that's what really ended good PVP.  People didn't care about the quest items anymore, they did it to level up and that was it.  2 million instances, no real good rewards from open dungeons, Rally flags so raids could get to instances to raid without ever having to step outside their guild halls.</p><p>think about that, the decline in PVE content has butchered PVP.  Remember Claymore line?  How long did people fight over that stuff?  It was near impossible to complete, but people did it because some of those items and quest gear were so good you just had to have it.  Cool items like cloak of flames, where you had to farm pages in contested zones for days to get.. there weren't many items with haste like that. </p><p>People want to talk about how "hardcore" it used to be.  It was never hardcore looking back on it.  It was some people that wanted to PVP and would do anything to get that advantage, and that meant getting gear the hard way, or spending all day stopping other people from getting theirs. </p><p>KP Zerg?  what a joke that's not PVP, I came back to the game around that time, zerged almost a full set of gear on my paladin and quit within a month. </p><p>As I said in another thread, imagine the Jo-Jo quest on kerra island... what if those claws were somethign people actually wanted in PVP?  You sure would know where people would be.</p><p>What if?  There were items you had to go get in game, that got upgraded by the PVP merchant?  with effects that didn't do anything in BGs?  It would spread people out of the city, send people all over the new zones, and i mean make them hard so that they can't get them in 1 day no matter how hard you tried.</p><p>think about it... it sounds weird to say it, but PVE content will revive PVP.</p>

moll
06-30-2010, 01:02 PM
<p>Back in the golden days of KoS, the PvE game was a lot harder, especially on the PvP server.  The only guild that was having any real success at raiding was Havoc, and they had to exile to do it because that was the only way to raid with all the classes.  The gear they got from raiding was what made them so good at PvP-- sure, a lot of them were good players, but the raid gear gave them the boost that pushed them over to godmode.</p><p>Those of us in the cities carped endlessly about not having access to all the classes, but that was a big part of what made PvP a necessity; we couldn't raid (and the PvP gear was much less powerful and more difficult to get), so we had to quest for gear.  That's why people were out.</p><p>I see a lot of whining here about the dearth of open world PvP from people who fancy themselves purists, people who claim to PvP for PvP's sake.  Yes, I know you exist.  I even know some of you personally.  But the fact remains: the vast majority of the server DOESN'T PvP for PvP's sake, and THEY NEVER HAVE.  They just had more reason to be out in the world before, so you were more likely to run into them when you were spoiling for a fight.  Those players are the reason the zerg got so big so fast: FREE GEAR!  EASY!  LET'S GO GET SOME!</p><p>The game got easier, the gear got MUCH more powerful and MUCH simpler to get.  PvE killed PvP.  And I hate to say it, because I love this game and I've been playing on Nagafen since launch, but I don't think it's coming back.</p>

YasikoSetsu
06-30-2010, 01:11 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> It was some people that wanted to PVP and would do anything to get that advantage, and that meant getting gear the hard way, or spending all day stopping other people from getting theirs.</p></blockquote><p>This.</p><p>Quit this down syndrome sneeze and pick up a piece of gear nonsense, it's getting ridiculous. 3 writs for a piece of low tier gear? AFK warfield tokens? Battlegrounds trophys for losing?</p><p>I remember doing part of the claymore line on my ranger to get that t7 ghostly bow that hit really hard, so I could be more effective in PvP. I remember doing labs trash runs for relic gear, because that stuff was beast in PvP. I also remember the amount of great times in bonemire PvPing outside of labs, or on the way, cause you couldnt just flag there.</p><p>That's another thing that needs to go, is this instant travel crap. You wanna get to KoS? Go find a spire. You wanna get to BBM? Go ride the boat. Everything you do to dumb down your game kills PvP a bit more and more, every single time, stop treating us like the effing WoW community, we dont need insta-go-anywhere in Norrath bells, or guild flags, or gear thrown at us for every single thing we do.</p><p>You're turning the community in to a bunch of spoiled brats, and I fear it's too late to go back.</p>

gaedii
06-30-2010, 02:56 PM
<p><cite>YasikoSetsuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's another thing that needs to go, is this instant travel crap. You wanna get to KoS? Go find a spire. You wanna get to BBM? Go ride the boat. Everything you do to dumb down your game kills PvP a bit more and more, every single time, stop treating us like the effing WoW community, we dont need insta-go-anywhere in Norrath bells, or guild flags, or gear thrown at us for every single thing we do.</p><p>You're turning the community in to a bunch of spoiled brats, and I fear it's too late to go back.</p></blockquote><p>if you can do just one small thing to improve pvp : TAKE OUT THE BELLS AND FLAGS !!!! </p><p>why do we even have them on a pvp server?  you're just making this game too easy to travel and avoid chance pvp</p><p>but i know it won't happen.  i know i'm probably just beating a horse so dead it has fossilized and been declared a national heritage site.</p><p>but please consider it?</p>

zyllith
06-30-2010, 03:36 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>why do we even have them on a pvp server?  you're just making this game too easy to travel and avoid chance pvp<p>but i know it won't happen.  i know i'm probably just beating a horse so dead it has fossilized and been declared a national heritage site.</p></blockquote><p>Simple answer: common codebase -- the PvP stuff is layered on top of the "base" PvE code [likely] ... so ...</p><p>- Changes related to PvP specifically == not hard to do, possible</p><p>- Changed related to things found in PvE == hard to do, not likely</p><p>- Changed related to things found in PvE that should be different in PvP == very hard to do, very unlikely</p><p>So, since the bells and flags and travel things are found in PvE, that makes it a "hard to do" thing and wanting them taken out specifically for PvP makes it a "very hard to do" ...</p>

Nemas Ravenor
06-30-2010, 03:59 PM
<p>I've been saying for a while now that PVP gear is a big part of the reason PVP is so broken and this post succinctly explains why.</p><p>When PVP gear is so easy to get, there is no reason to go do any of the content in the PVE part of the game.  I was one of those players who raided and did those quest lines for that hard to achieve piece of gear in order to make me a better PvPer.  Even in Kunark, before everyone and their mother had their myths there was that amazing Epic quest line that took people from all factions all over every zone of Norath and you would find PVP everywhere.  Some groups, some duos, some solos. </p><p>Completeing your epic quest was priority one in this game and there were no bells or flags so we flew and ran through open zones and contested dungeons.  Sebillis PVP was perhaps the most fun I have ever had in this game.</p><p>But it is all gone now.  You can get your Myth 2.0 spell by doing a handful of INSTANCES and never see pvp. </p><p>I want to be on record.  I love the GAME.  All the PVE stuff used to be so fun to play because it gave you meaningful gear.  But the PVP gear is better than anything you will find in an instance so why bother doing them?</p><p>So let's get rid of PVP gear entirely, take out the bells and flags, and upgrade the rewards of HQs so you have to complete them in CONTESTED ZONES.</p><p>Sony, if you were to do that, you would have the entire server playing both the PVE in the game and we would be able to PVP against each other while doing it.  And that, I think, is what the vast majority of the players want.</p>

max.power
07-01-2010, 06:14 AM
<p><cite>Nemas Ravenor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>But the PVP gear is better than anything you will find in an instance so why bother doing them?</blockquote><p>That might be true for the armor but not for the jewelry and some weapons.</p>

ailen
07-01-2010, 10:52 AM
<p>If there were things people actually wanted to do outside of instances or BGs there would be more PVP.  Its that simple.  It used to be that people had to do PVE content in areas that put them at risk.  There is no risk anymore. the only reason to do any quests is to level, which quite a bit of people rather grind 90 anyways...  AA?  Can also grind those. </p><p>Put things in the game that even the PVP people will want, and they'll go and do the content and fight over it.</p>

max.power
07-01-2010, 02:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If there were things people actually wanted to do outside of instances or BGs there would be more PVP.</p></blockquote><p>With the current lag: Do we really want more PvP?</p><p>For me what is killing PvP is the lag, and that alone. You could have the most awesome PvP system with perfectly balanced classes, body dropped tokens and the old fame system (what some people think would "fix" their PvP), PvP objectives that are worth fighting for, PvE contested mobs with loot everyone wants, PvE quest lines in the open world everyone would like to do and so on... all that would be nil and void with the current lag we are facing as soon as 50+ players are in one zone. When players are warping all over the place, CAs and spell have a delay of several seconds, hotbar icons are lit when they are down and down when they are up and "Your target is too far away, move closer!" spams your chat, absolutely nothing would "revive" and "fix" PvP.</p><p>Fix the lag above everything else first, let us then talk about other stuff. My opinion.</p><p>Oh, and regarding contested mobs and especially more valuable open world PvE quests: We have no influence on such things. How the PvE side of this game evolves is dictated by the PvE crowd and their feedback, which outweighs our population and opinions by tons. Sadly the game got more and more solo and small group friendly and the trend to contested content went down. We have to live with that I guess.</p>

ailen
07-01-2010, 02:29 PM
<p>The only lag I experience is in commonlands of antonica in the warfails.  If pvp were spread out across norrath you wouldn't experience this and actually be engaged in what us old timers call "real pvp"  100 vs 100 in one zone is NOT possible in this game without skill lag, warping, and generally unplayable game performance.</p><p>yes I want more PVP... what we have now IS NOT what I want..</p><p>No, we don't have any say or ability to modify the game.  the developers do.</p><p>It would be VERY easy to offer a path of upgrade on a pvp merchant to items that alread exist in game..   do PVP and upgrade said items that are already there...  SUPER easy to implement.</p>

Sprin
07-01-2010, 03:08 PM
<p>writs killed pvp... end of discussion...</p>

max.power
07-01-2010, 03:40 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>writs killed pvp...</p></blockquote><p>Why?</p>

MaCloud1032
07-01-2010, 04:12 PM
Because it set up the zerg mentality. Now all ya had to do was tap someone and poof updates

Shiirr
07-01-2010, 05:43 PM
<p>Actually, not "writs" so much as "poorly thought out writs", but those were due to gear issues.  Prior to writs, everybody (okay, majority of non-Scouts) complained that only Scouts could get body drops for PvP gear.  Writs were implemented, but then you needed the specific classes.  How often did you need a Necro/Conjuror for 3 days to finish one writ?  Once they made the scope more broad, the Fautuna debacle ensued.  Server crashed hard, repeatedly.  Raiders got ticked, especially the Exiles who weren't even involved in writs, as they had no gear to gain.  But the <em>core </em>of the problem wasn't in the writs themselves; it was the difference in gear driving people to do it in the fastest, easiest manner to be competitve.  Band-Aid fixes to writs driving the feeding frenzy at the docks let you AOE your way to a hundred, or two hundred, tokens a night, that was fostered by people trying to catch up to the raiders and the PvPers that had gear.  Blame the difference in gear quality more than the writs.  Raid gear should have always been the best PvE gear, but lousy for PvP.  PvP gear should always have been the best for fighting other players, but lousy against mobs.  Two playstyles on the same servers with zero impact on each other.</p><p>Here's a question for everybody.  If PvP gear had been introduced as a set of MC gear that was awesome against other players, but crap against NPC's (meaning everybody would have access to it very easily, and putting the emphasis on skill rather than gear), and PvE gear was nowhere near the effectiveness of PvP gear, what would the end result have been? </p><p>My guess would be the following: there wouldn't have been any reason for anyone to farm alts.  No reason for anyone to farm newbies.  No purpose behind griefing (other than to grief, which can be its' own reward in some cases).  No cries of imbalance, since everybody could get the same gear.  No writs.  No zerg.  In fact, nothing but PvP for PvP's sake, with all factions having equally accessible gear (Exiles included).  A simple addition of 1 more slot set, like the appearance tab, but just for PvP gear, and the ability to swap into it while in-combat would have worked.  An ability button named something like "PvP Gear" that makes that the set that is active, locking in those particular stats and abilities, while getting rid of the 200 other procs in the game and effectively bringing us back to what gear was like when Naggy went live.  To make it available, all that would need to be done would be to add an equipment set to the recipe books, stripping away all of the add-on crap that's been implemented since 2006.  Do it on PvE servers too, and then everybody would get the same stuff on BG's as well.  Or not.</p>

Sprin
07-01-2010, 08:02 PM
<p>Writs, plain and simple... they took away the need to go out and look for pvp, all you had to do is go to a choke point, the writ giver at first, and pvp there all day long and do AOE's and get tokens... people got this mentality that that was the norm... now even with writ posters, you still see that mentality... choke point PVP is what we have now... everyone goes in one place and its a big old AOE fest...  pvp is now based on mass amounts of killing....</p><p>it hasn't changed since ROK release of writs... nobody hunts for pvp anymore... nobody roams, nobody does anything besides gather in a big group and do a bunch of Aoes and hope your faction has more aoes then their faction... and sit and wait for the tokens to roll in...</p><p>writs destroyed pvp...   the mentality has changed completey because of them... its no longer fun enough to go hunt for pvp and have fights in the middle of a zone... its more lucrative to go in a big blob and do AOEs... so thats what people still do...</p>

ailen
07-01-2010, 10:04 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Writs, plain and simple... they took away the need to go out and look for pvp, all you had to do is go to a choke point, the writ giver at first, and pvp there all day long and do AOE's and get tokens... people got this mentality that that was the norm... now even with writ posters, you still see that mentality... choke point PVP is what we have now... everyone goes in one place and its a big old AOE fest...  pvp is now based on mass amounts of killing....</p><p> it hasn't changed since ROK release of writs... nobody hunts for pvp anymore... nobody roams, nobody does anything besides gather in a big group and do a bunch of Aoes and hope your faction has more aoes then their faction... and sit and wait for the tokens to roll in...</p><p>writs destroyed pvp...   the mentality has changed completey because of them... its no longer fun enough to go hunt for pvp and have fights in the middle of a zone... its more lucrative to go in a big blob and do AOEs... so thats what people still do...</p></blockquote><p>PVP is in the Zerg because nobody goes out looking for PVP.  The reason nobody goes out looking for PVP is because there is no REASON FOR ANYONE TO BE OUT THERE ANYWHERE.  </p><p>this is the real ending to PVP.  When people just flat out didn't have to go out to do anything anymore.  PVP is always best at the beginning of every expansion. why might you ask?  Because people are out doing the content, and people are fighting over the quest spots/mobs/everything.</p><p>Writs have their own issues... indeed, but if you made people actually GO OUTSIDE people will PVP...   writs?  that's not the issue, writs were introduced to try and get people to go outside and kill each other.  The real issue is that there wasn't a reason to go outside, you can finish an expac in 1 week then what? </p><p>really.</p>

max.power
07-02-2010, 10:35 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Writs, plain and simple... they took away the need to go out and look for pvp, all you had to do is go to a choke point, the writ giver at first, and pvp there all day long and do AOE's and get tokens... people got this mentality that that was the norm... now even with writ posters, you still see that mentality... choke point PVP is what we have now... everyone goes in one place and its a big old AOE fest...  pvp is now based on mass amounts of killing....</p><p>it hasn't changed since ROK release of writs... nobody hunts for pvp anymore... nobody roams, nobody does anything besides gather in a big group and do a bunch of Aoes and hope your faction has more aoes then their faction... and sit and wait for the tokens to roll in...</p><p>writs destroyed pvp...   the mentality has changed completey because of them... its no longer fun enough to go hunt for pvp and have fights in the middle of a zone... its more lucrative to go in a big blob and do AOEs... so thats what people still do...</p></blockquote><p>Writs have their flaws (like getting updates as a soloer laying dead on the floor) but to say that people don't roam anymore because of writs is wrong. They don't roam because there is nothing left to do in the open!</p><p>Not to forget that guild banners took out a large portion of possible PvP encounters, roaming these days gets boring after 20 minutes. Of course people flock to choke points where the action is, and are fighting there as long as others are around.</p><p>You would see the same behaviour EVEN with body dropped chests and EVEN with the old fame system. Tell me: Under the "good old system", why would you start roaming around when you see a group fighting... and more coming in? And knowing exactly that all other zones are empty except maybe 1-3 solo questers?</p>