PDA

View Full Version : Working as intended ?


Proud_Silence
06-29-2010, 12:22 PM
<p>On my 69 toon im attacking a guard during WF event. one or two opposing faction players in my lvl range, we fight, one party dies, everything fine.</p><p>Now i continue to smack the guard, and since they have a fairly nasty damage shield, all the low lvl weaklings see this as a chance to get a pvp update. soon my back is covered with arrows, my dettrimental window bursting cause its overfilled with debuffs.</p><p>I turn around and start fighting back. but wait, that lvl 15 ranger JUST shot an arrow at me, and i get "illegal target" message when trying to attack back ??</p><p>I get taunted by random players 50+ levels BELOW me, how on Norrath is this possible ?</p><p>Basically it ends up with me standing there, about a dozen or more grey con players around me, all landing CA's and spells with what seems no problem. By the time i reach close combat range ( because im snared to - 100% runspeed or somethin) and start killing someone, they just sprint away and 3 sec later they are an illegal target...</p><p>For the love of all gods in Norrath, CARNAGE FLAG grey players who attack a red con !!!</p><p>I realize this is a complaint from pure red server and doesn't affect bluebie gameplay, but please !! Olihin can you fix this ?? it's really frustrating having to run from grey players simply because the game mechanic favors them...</p>

zyllith
06-29-2010, 12:48 PM
<p><cite>Proud_Silence wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>On my 69 toon im attacking a guard during WF event. one or two opposing faction players in my lvl range, we fight, one party dies, everything fine.</p><p>Now i continue to smack the guard, and since they have a fairly nasty damage shield, all the low lvl weaklings see this as a chance to get a pvp update. soon my back is covered with arrows, my dettrimental window bursting cause its overfilled with debuffs.</p><p>I turn around and start fighting back. but wait, that lvl 15 ranger JUST shot an arrow at me, and i get "illegal target" message when trying to attack back ??</p><p>I get taunted by random players 50+ levels BELOW me, how on Norrath is this possible ?</p><p>Basically it ends up with me standing there, about a dozen or more grey con players around me, all landing CA's and spells with what seems no problem. By the time i reach close combat range ( because im snared to - 100% runspeed or somethin) and start killing someone, they just sprint away and 3 sec later they are an illegal target...</p><p>For the love of all gods in Norrath, CARNAGE FLAG grey players who attack a red con !!!</p><p>I realize this is a complaint from pure red server and doesn't affect bluebie gameplay, but please !! Olihin can you fix this ?? it's really frustrating having to run from grey players simply because the game mechanic favors them...</p></blockquote><p>Umm ... but, I'm confused, isn't that PvP?</p><p>What you're describing is</p><p>a) a choke point of some sort, something that has been in PvP since it was first created -- in SS, in EL, in KP, everywhere there is a choke point of some sort where different levels of players will be found.  This is identical to predators hunting prey at a choke point like a river, a lake or a cliff.   This choke point simply happened to be a WF.</p><p>b) organized predator behaviour, has worked for weaker predators against larger prey since before dinosaurs, still works for the animal kingdom and works for PvP.  This is simply because it allows the predators to confuse and baffle the prey and to be able to spread the damage across the group.  This group simply happened to be some greys.</p><p>b) tactics, both the Q's and FP's have been developing them nicely over the last few weeks.  PvP is not supposed to be rock-em-sock-em robots -- you can duel for that, or do a BG.  PvP is using the spells that you have plus the terrain available plus group tactics to overcome a superior adversary.  Look at a raid -- do you simply wade into the named surrounded by trash mob's and just wail away until you win?  Nope, you pull the trash mob's, get your healers organized, debuff the named and keep drawing aggro with the tanks while the mages nuke until dead.  That's raid tactics, and PvP similarly uses tactics. </p><p>So, let's look at what happened to you from another perspective:</p><p>- You were drawn to a chokepoint by the lure of a 5 token participation reward and the potential to get some player updates -- otherwise you'd be crafting</p><p>- A group of greys, acting as an organized predator group, waited for you to become weakened/ distracted by your attacking the tower to mount an organized attack</p><p>- These greys, utilizing the detaunt capabilities that PvP gives them, kept you dazed, confused and distracted enough that they were able to eventually wear you down and terminate you</p><p>What *YOU* need to do, IMHO, is rather than /whinemode about greys is to simply develop better tactics of your own:</p><p>- The grey swarm works because it can keep the majority of the group at a longer range; you need to box them in; the interior of the tower is excellent for that, they can't run as far</p><p>- Get some AOE capability, which doesn't care about selected targets.  Once the grey is inside the tower (so they can't leave the range easily) and you drop a good AOE then they take damage too -- and they are grey, they die much faster</p><p>- Learn to group, ideally with a mage with some good AOE.  Imagine this: you (tank) are grouped with a mage.  Mage goes inside the tower and waits; you are outside, start drawing aggro from the greys, run inside the tower.  Greys follow, mage starts dropping AOE's, you pick off the greys remaining.  Combine this with a healer and you're about unstoppable ...</p><p>Or, I guess, /whinemode about the bad, bad greys bothering you like swarming flies ...</p>

Wytie
06-29-2010, 01:14 PM
<p>Hes just saying since its so easy to get out of pvp combat it makes it really easy for greys to try and leech then run and hide before you can figure out who hit you, then by the time you do they are out of combat and safe again.</p><p>Worst part is even though they are out of combat if you die, they will still get an update.</p>

zyllith
06-29-2010, 01:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hes just saying since its so easy to get out of pvp combat it makes it really easy for greys to try and leech then run and hide before you can figure out who hit you, then by the time you do they are out of combat and safe again.</p><p>Worst part is even though they are out of combat if you die, they will still get an update.</p></blockquote><p>I understand what he's saying and I can sympathize; my toons have been swarmed and whacked by the cloud of FP 35's a number of times, and my toons are all squishy ones -- they die very, very quickly!</p><p>But rather than /whinemode, I continue to think that better tactics need to be developed instead.  I watched a FP group from the Jesters [FP guild] last night at a WF at the FP docks that showed just that: they had a group with some healers, a few tanks and a bunch of mages.  The healers and mages hung around the tower, the tanks ran around the edges, invariably attracting the swarm of greys going after them.  After the tanks got a nice little train going they drove directly into the center of the tower and stopped: the greys ran in after them (thinking "cool, he's stopped running, easy kill") and the mages/ healers on the outside of the tower (but still in AOE range) just unloaded ... erasing most the Q's in the first salvo, rooting/ stunning what was left.  The tanks picked those Q's off, and the tanks went back to running around the outside.  Just poetry, really ... they really put some thought into what they wanted to do, just like you would do with raiding a named, and it paid off really well, kudo's to the Jester folks ...</p>

noobsauce01
06-29-2010, 01:40 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hes just saying since its so easy to get out of pvp combat it makes it really easy for greys to try and leech then run and hide before you can figure out who hit you, then by the time you do they are out of combat and safe again.</p><p>Worst part is even though they are out of combat if you die, they will still get an update.</p></blockquote><p>I understand what he's saying and I can sympathize; my toons have been swarmed and whacked by the cloud of FP 35's a number of times, and my toons are all squishy ones -- they die very, very quickly!</p><p>But rather than /whinemode, I continue to think that better tactics need to be developed instead.  I watched a FP group from the Jesters [FP guild] last night at a WF at the FP docks that showed just that: they had a group with some healers, a few tanks and a bunch of mages.  The healers and mages hung around the tower, the tanks ran around the edges, invariably attracting the swarm of greys going after them.  After the tanks got a nice little train going they drove directly into the center of the tower and stopped: the greys ran in after them (thinking "cool, he's stopped running, easy kill") and the mages/ healers on the outside of the tower (but still in AOE range) just unloaded ... erasing most the Q's in the first salvo, rooting/ stunning what was left.  The tanks picked those Q's off, and the tanks went back to running around the outside.  Just poetry, really ... they really put some thought into what they wanted to do, just like you would do with raiding a named, and it paid off really well, kudo's to the Jester folks ...</p></blockquote><p>Good point, the group here has managed to "work around" a broken mechanic. If grey con mob initiates the fight they should be flagged for those they are attacking unitil they zone out, die, or thier target dies. The system is already broken over all, this is just another example of lowbies using the broken system to thier advantage. Running, breaking combat, and becoming immune to retribution for your attack is BS no matter how you spin it.</p>

zyllith
06-29-2010, 06:08 PM
<p><cite>noobsauce01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Good point, the group here has managed to "work around" a broken mechanic. If grey con mob initiates the fight they should be flagged for those they are attacking unitil they zone out, die, or thier target dies. The system is already broken over all, this is just another example of lowbies using the broken system to thier advantage. Running, breaking combat, and becoming immune to retribution for your attack is BS no matter how you spin it.</p></blockquote><p>That's the whole point, and which people don't quite "get" ... it's not "working around a broken mechanic", it's "working as intended" .. (which is why you can /ragemode and /whinemode until your fingers bleed, *that* isn't going to change!</p><p>EQ PvP is not, never was, two steely eyed combatants meeting in a deserted area until one is left standing -- that's the arena and /duel.  EQ is a *group* meeting another *group* and fighting away -- which is exactly what we have now with the WF's if you're the right tier.  If a *group* of greys's want to engage a higher level target and use good tactics and strategy to defeat the mob then that's what otherwise would be called a "raid" ... not a broken mechanic.</p><p>Imagine the situation as a raid: your group of toons come upon an red epic named, what do you do?  You decide on a strategy, then use a series of roots/ mezzes/ detaunts to try to control the aggro while the big guns bring down the named.  If the fight gets rough, what do you all do?  You run away, until the mob loses aggro and goes back to it's starting point ... and you re-engage until the named goes down.</p><p>Now let's frame this as PvP: your group of toons come upon a red 90 doing something, what do you do?  You decided on a strategy, then use a series of roots/ mezzes/ detaunts to try to control the targeting of the 90 while the big guns try to bring down the 90.  If the 90 starts to get a target lock, what do you do?  You all run away, until you are out of the range of the 90 and it goes back to where it was ... and you re-engage until the named, er, 90, goes down.</p><p>If you're the poor 90, you have more options than the epic named, and it's up to the 90 to develop those strategies (like the Jester folks did the other evening) rather than complain about broken mechanics and such ...</p><p>It's all about "L2P" ...</p>

ailen
06-29-2010, 06:13 PM
<p>If a player engages a nonmentored person out of his/her range while a warfield is going, they should get carnage flagged... </p><p>fixed.. I'd aoe most down in one swing... done.</p>

Taldier
06-29-2010, 06:38 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's the whole point, and which people don't quite "get" ... it's not "working around a broken mechanic", it's "working as intended" .. (which is why you can /ragemode and /whinemode until your fingers bleed, *that* isn't going to change!</p></blockquote><p>The purpose of level ranges is to seperate new players from experienced players.</p><p>The reason level ranges exist in any game is to prevent experienced developed characters from griefing unexperienced underdeveloped characters.</p><p>The purpose of the level system itself in any game is as a representation of experience and character development.</p><p>These are basic logical statements of game design.</p><p>What we have at the current time due to the combined existance of perma-locking and high rates of experience gain:</p><p>- Experienced end game characters killing end game noobs who leveled up using extremely high rates of experience gain</p><p>- Experienced lowbie characters killing lowbie noobs as they are leveling up with high rates of experience gain</p><p>This is stupid no matter how you look at it, however it remains acceptable until you combine these groups into a single pvp event with level ranges where all of these players are encouraged to participate.</p><p>The use of level ranges as a magic protective shield during what is intended to be a tactical pvp event to make experienced players immune to other experienced players who would otherwise kill them is an exploit of the level range system.</p><p>The fact that lower level toons can mass on top of an enemy target and prevent them from targetting anything which they are actually allowed to hit is an exploit the of the level range system.</p><p>Most of the actual actions engaged in by said lowbie players in warfields do not even directly involve they themselves engaging themselves in pvp.  It verges upon intentional zone disruption.</p>

Ralpmet
06-29-2010, 06:56 PM
<p>I've suggested carnage flag on players every few months since I started pvp a few years back, not always on the forum but in /feedback.</p><p>I think if enough people /feedback that they were just attacked by 20 grey's right after it happens they'll eventually patch in carnage flag for attacking someone outside of your range as a punishment.</p>

Sephraa
07-08-2010, 06:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hes just saying since its so easy to get out of pvp combat it makes it really easy for greys to try and leech then run and hide before you can figure out who hit you, then by the time you do they are out of combat and safe again.</p><p>Worst part is even though they are out of combat if you die, they will still get an update.</p></blockquote><p>There should never be any 'out of combat' or  'immune' once you attack someone, unless one of you dies. That is my whole issue with this pvp. Well, that and those chicken sh*ts that use the 'disappearing' exploit to get away once they have attacked you and find out they bit off more than they can chew.</p><p>However, now that Smokejumper has spoken, I am looking for a new game. My sub expires this month.</p><p>..."offer us transfers since you blew us off"</p>

EddyBobalou
07-08-2010, 11:17 PM
<p><cite>Sephraa wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hes just saying since its so easy to get out of pvp combat it makes it really easy for greys to try and leech then run and hide before you can figure out who hit you, then by the time you do they are out of combat and safe again.</p><p>Worst part is even though they are out of combat if you die, they will still get an update.</p></blockquote><p>There should never be any 'out of combat' or  'immune' once you attack someone, unless one of you dies. That is my whole issue with this pvp. Well, that and those chicken sh*ts that use the 'disappearing' exploit to get away once they have attacked you and find out they bit off more than they can chew.</p><p>However, now that Smokejumper has spoken, I am looking for a new game. My sub expires this month.</p><p>..."offer us transfers since you blew us off"</p></blockquote><p>"disapearing exploit" lols its called stealth and there are totems to counter it. only thing wrong is only scouts can do it in combat. other classes with invis cannot cast in combat. there is no excuse for this.</p>

Sephraa
07-09-2010, 12:10 PM
<p><cite>EddyBobalou wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sephraa wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hes just saying since its so easy to get out of pvp combat it makes it really easy for greys to try and leech then run and hide before you can figure out who hit you, then by the time you do they are out of combat and safe again.</p><p>Worst part is even though they are out of combat if you die, they will still get an update.</p></blockquote><p>There should never be any 'out of combat' or  'immune' once you attack someone, unless one of you dies. That is my whole issue with this pvp. Well, that and those chicken sh*ts that use the 'disappearing' exploit to get away once they have attacked you and find out they bit off more than they can chew.</p><p>However, now that Smokejumper has spoken, I am looking for a new game. My sub expires this month.</p><p>..."offer us transfers since you blew us off"</p></blockquote><p>"disapearing exploit" lols its called stealth and there are totems to counter it. only thing wrong is only scouts can do it in combat. other classes with invis cannot cast in combat. there is no excuse for this.</p></blockquote><p>hahah NO it's not. It's called run in windows mode and minimize your screen to disappear and leave combat since you can't handle what you attacked!</p>

Grayspirit
07-10-2010, 12:41 PM
<p>The game has always encouraged shady behavior through its mechanics.</p>

Ahlana
07-10-2010, 01:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The game has always encouraged shady behavior through its mechanics.</p></blockquote><p>True Story. This has been brought up time and time again, so one can only assume it is indeed "working as intended". As it seems a rather simple fix to prevent this sort of behavior. Since they don't even acknowledge it as a problem, one must believe that it is indeed not a problem.</p><p>I think it is bunk personally, but what I or others think is ridiculous SOE feels is perfectly fine. This problem actually came from the fix to being stuck in battle at a flight post while your target flew off. So now fights break really quick, which was suppose to help one side is now harming the over all design of things IMO. I would rather be stuck at a griffon and writing off that kill, than someone sprint 5 feet from me and be out of combat.</p>