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View Full Version : "Wrath of God" deletion/revamp part 2 - open PVP


NoPetKitty
06-28-2010, 04:55 PM
<p>After reading the entirety of Bryony's thread located here:  <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=480958" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=480958</a></p><p>I believe that there is darn near complete agreement from all PvP players posting on this forum...  the system is broke.</p><p>Therefore, this is my round of suggestions and part 2 of the "wrath of God" series.  Part 1 is located here:  <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=481677" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=481677</a></p><p>Part 1 is the place for the newbies to go and train, and figure out how to play PvP style, and should give the "crybabies" something to do that they can not spend a lot of time on.  It is the fixed version of the warfields, and although it is a rough instance, it is nothing compared to what I am about to suggest for the rest of the open world._____________________</p><p>Open PvP.  I believe we all know the broken nature of it, and although I have not been around since the OLD OLD days of it first being open, I have been around long enough to see the changes that don't work, and some simple things that will work.</p><p>Bryony's thread really has most of the main ideas that need to be fixed, so I will not repeat most of them.  What I will add are some additional elements that weren't mentioned or expand on some ideas further.  This will be a long enough post as it is, so you may want to grab a sandwich and a pop and get comfy.</p><p>The mentality of the PvP server:This server is not supposed to be a walk in the park.  It is not even supposed to be difficult, it is supposed to be the hardest thing that you have ever played in your life, because there is one thing that is out of your control and not predictable.  The actions of other players.  The entire server is the most dangerous thing to your character.  It should not be any other way.  If you don't find yourself yelling at your screen, then you aren't playing right.  The emotions described in other threads, should be present.  It is like throwing an Unreal Tournament PvP battle over EQ2.  That is the nature and mentality of PVP.  If you have to put up a warning for people making characters on these servers, so be it. </p><p>Immunity in PvP:If you are not in a city, do away with it.  You will still have a 30 second immunity to compose yourself when leaving a city, or take the bell to where you want to go. (But truth be told, I believe this immunity is only there to balance the lag out a bit, so you don't zone in dead.)  But that is it.  There is no more "Time until immunity".  You will be immune after you die and revive, but if you so much as take one step in any direction, or cast an offensive or defensive spell/ability, you lose that immunity instantly.  The only thing that does not make you lose immunity is casting an evac, portal, ring, call type spell.  Just don't take a step first.  All of that should be easy enough to code.</p><p>Fighting in PvP:Open PvP will be set to a hard 5 level range in ALL zones.  That means that even if you want to jump the level 60 guy at level 54, too bad.  Go level.  This will do much to keep the crybabies safe, and allow the hard core PvPers to do their thing, and prevent most all players from being taken advantage of.  Before you jump out of your seat, there is a reason why as follows.</p><p>Mentoring in PvP:This is where the biggest changes will happen.  Yes, you need to "buddy up" with people to "progress", and the current set up puts you at an extreme disadvantage for doing so.  You can be attacked, but you cannot defend yourself.  </p><p>RE-TAR-DED.  I cannot stress that enough.  So here are some changes to that:</p><p>If you mentor down using the chronomentor:You can still PvP players and be PvPed within your 5 level range.  But you lose 100% of your toughness from your gear at any chronomentored level, and your effects/mitigation on your gear and damage/effects done from spells/arts are reduced in the same porportion that you lose XP.  I.E.> If you chrono to 10, you lose 90% of the effects/mitigation of your gear and damage/effects from spells/arts.  Fighting an actual lvl 10-15 player that is mastered out, geared out and level locked, will be very difficult for you, but neither side will have the advantage per se.  This will give the high end players something to do again, while prepping the nooblets for a taste of what is to come giving them invaluable experience.  The overall point is that those level 90 players will have something to do as well, should they only find lower level players.</p><p>If you mentor down to another player:Your attackable range will drop to the level that you are mentoring down to.  That means if you mentor down to 60, only players 55 to 65 can attack you.  You do not lose any of your toughness other than the porportinate amount you would normally lose, and your effects and spells/arts are reduced normally as well.  But you also CANNOT attack another player, even if in your range now.  Essentially all targets become illegal, until you are attacked by one.  Your canidate that you can mentor to cannot attack these targets either, as he/she is focused on gaining additional experience from the mentoring lesson.  Your primary goal is helping this player that you are mentoring, and them learning from it.  Others can attack you if they are within your level range, but they do so at their own peril because you CAN defend yourself, but only after being attacked.  The attacker will not be able to see if you are mentored down or not, only what level you are after being mentored down.  Therefore the attacker attacks at their own peril, as it should be.</p><p>These same principles apply to mentoring in a raid format as well, but if even one person is attacked in the raid, then all members in the raid can defend themselves, so long as the attacker is within their range.</p><p>Titles, Ranking, Writs, Tokens, etc. in PvP:For this system to work, all titles must be reset to nothing.</p><p>Title and Rank:Your title.  It doesn't do much as it is right now, but I do agree with some of the posts I saw earlier in the fact that it determines what you drop, if anything.  For example:No title or same rank kill:  Max drop is 10% of the coin on victim.Killing someone 1 Title rank higher: Max drop is 30% of the coin on victim.Killing someone 2 Title ranks higher: Max drop is 50% of the coin on victim. Can drop item in inventory(See exemptions)Killing someone 3 Title ranks higher: Max drop is 70% of the coin on victim. Can drop inventory AND jewelry(rare)Killing someone 4 Title ranks higher: Drop is 100% of the coin on victim. Can drop inventory AND jewelry(uncommon)Killing someone 5 Title ranks higher: Drop is 100% of the coin on victim. Will always drop 1 piece of gear(any, random)Killing someone higher than 5 ranks: Drop is 100% of the coin on victim, Gain 10% of the victims status points(regular status points and the victim loses that 10%), and one selectable piece of gear of the victims.You could expand on this further and even starting at 4 ranks and higher your victim could drop Master versions of spells that are directly from the victim itself, and the victim loses the Master Rank spell and has the previous version they had before scribing the master version.Only a person who initiated combat with the defender and landed the killing blow on the defender will receive rewards based upon this table.  If someone started combat, but another person killed the defender, NO rewards will be given.  A writ update will be given, so long as the 2 involved in combat with the defender were grouped.  If they were not grouped, NO writ update will be given at all to either attacking party.</p><p>Exemptions:  Mytical weapons, quest items, and items not usable or tradable by the victor.  This means that if a 1st rank wizard drops a 6th rank shadowknight(don't laugh, I have seen it done) the only selectable items displayed will be items that the caster can use or are tradable.  Obviously all attuned items become unattuned when dropped.  PvP is of the discord nature, and a powerful enough battle causes this.  When the victim revives, if they dropped anything, messages will display in a manner akin to quest update messages as to what they dropped.Because this is going to be something PvPers constantly worry about, some sort of statistic about your title rank will have to be displayed in your character skills window that is based upon the next bit of information to follow.  Something simple such as "For next rank:" sort of thing to start.The PvP Ranking system:Quite simply, this is a "how good are you at PvPing" rank that ties in with the Status system.  The rank is calculated easily with a KvD system, or rather a Kills vs. Death ratio in PVP.  For example:  You have 1000 kills in PVP combat, but you may have died 700 times.  This gives you a 1.428 Raw PVP ratio.  I would factor in something for running away, but let's face it, he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day, and discresion is the better part of valor, etc. etc. are all true statements.  But what I can factor in is dying from non PVP means in PVP combat.  Suicide/cliff jumping, still counts as a death.  It is akin to falling on one's own sword.  Accepting the enevitable, but you still died.  It counts as a death.  Yes, your enemy didnt get their precious writ update, but you still died in combat, therefore it makes the loss/gain a bit more fair, you get a death mark, and your enemy misses out on a writ update.</p><p>The proposed table I have for ratios and where you achieve the next title rank are as follows:Your title rank and ratio will not start updating until you have minimum of both 5 kills AND 20 deaths, as this will put you at 0.250.  The 20 deaths will take you no time, it's the 5 kills you have to worry about.  Consider it a rite of passage.0.0 - 0.499: No title0.500-0.999: 1st rank1.000-1.499: 2nd rank1.500-1.749: 3rd rank1.750-1.999: 4th rank2.000-2.249: 5th rank2.250-2.499: 6th rank2.500 and above: 7th and final rank.Gaining any ratio after the 2nd rank is considered where you will start on your path to becoming an elite.  Incedently, this is also where status rank PVP gear and items start coming into play.  It rewards players who are hard core PvPers, and are good at it, as it should be.  If you suck at PvP, or are just a weekend warrior that plays for a couple hours, sorry, you will not have access to this stuff.  PvP servers are the very embodiment of "survival of the fittest"  Lesser players have the things that you can do that require little effort, but if you want the elite stuff, you should have to work for it.  One thing that I will throw in here for SoE's sake is that you could BUY your ratio via the station cash once you have either 50 kills or 50 deaths, or a combination of both equaling 50.  (Now before you all start throwing garbage and rotten fruit, this is to make it financially viable for them so they will make the rest of the changes.  Necessary Evil, sorry.) </p><p>For 100 station cash, you can increase your ratio by .500 or half a point.  Through 1 or more purchases you can increase your ratio to where you may buy status rank PVP gear.  Realize though that what you buy through the station cash store is a one time application.  So if you go out with your gear, and get killed in PVP, your ratio may drop to BELOW what the status rank gear is rated at, making it unusable, and essentially wearing nothing in that slot.  By purchasing status rank via station cash again, you can raise it again to what it needs to be for the item to become usable by you.  You will still be at the peril of dying again and losing the usabilty of it should your ratio fall below what is needed to wear it. </p><p>The purchasing of ratio is intended to be an equivelent to bribing the vendors to spell/enchant the piece of gear so you can use it, even though you do not have the experience to use it.  Ideal for those "weekend warriors" that want to play at the high levels, but don't have the time.  This gives them the option, but there is an equivelent amount of risk with it, one or two mistakes and your ratio will fall.  Only by acheiving 100's and eventually thousands of PVP kills/death's will your ratio not fluctuate with a few kills or deaths.</p><p>Writs and Tokens.  Although there is serious distaste with this aspect of the PvP server, I think the problem more exists with the manner in which updates are gained.  In order to make it work though, one simple thing must be added in.  If you die in PVP combat against a player or group of players, you do not get a writ update should that other player die.  Period.  Once you die, all pending writ updates get wiped.  I am pretty sure something similar to this method is already in place, but just to clarify I believe this is the fairest way to prevent leeching.  The only exception to this is if you are in a group.  But I believe once again this is already in place.  Sorry for not being sure, I don't do much group PVPing anymore.</p><p>Whew.  With all that out, I again only state that if you are going to flame this, do it in the form of offering  constructive criticism.  I am not the authority on PVP, never claimed to be, but I have a knack for analyzing complex systems, and taking the experiences of others in to benefit the system.  If only the developer behind this was as competant as some of the players that I have seen post with their ideas.  Eventually they will start listening guys, but we have to spell it out for them, because I am sure even the PVP development team feels lost, thus the last couple of changes to the PVP system.</p><p>Part 3 will be the rewards for the new title rank system, as well as some items for use in PVP.  I am not sure when I will get to it, but I will, it is just that it takes some research from the PVP gear that now exists.  I also have to make sure that the EQ2 engine would even support the rough idea that I have bouncing around in my head now.  For example: The items will level with the character, even though you have obtained it at a level less than 90.  I know these type of items exist in the first EQ, but that is a different engine, and EQ2 may not support it. </p><p>Anyway, thanks for reading, I hope we can get some changes going!</p><p>Reason for edit:  Typos... sorry.</p>

Hilt
06-28-2010, 05:10 PM
<p><cite>NoPetKitty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>...</p><p>The proposed table I have for ratios and where you achieve the next title rank are as follows:Your title rank and ratio will not start updating until you have minimum of both 5 kills AND 20 deaths, as this will put you at 0.250.  The 20 deaths will take you no time, it's the 5 kills you have to worry about.  Consider it a rite of passage.0.0 - 0.499: No title0.500-0.999: 1st rank1.000-1.499: 2nd rank1.500-1.749: 3rd rank1.750-1.999: 4th rank2.000-2.249: 5th rank2.250-2.499: 6th rank2.500 and above: 7th and final rank....</p></blockquote><p>For this alone...I "heart" you.</p>

NoPetKitty
06-28-2010, 10:51 PM
<p>Thanks Hilt, like I said, it is a proposed table, and the actual ratios can vary depending on the need.  But the idea is that just starting out, you will get higher ranks immediately, but over time you will see a flux because not everyone will be able to maintain a 2.5 ratio or higher.  Even a 2 ratio becomes difficult down the road because that is killing 2 opposite faction PvP players to every 1 of your deaths.  It can be done, but it's not easy.</p><p>The rewards for title rank will have to wait a bit to come out, otherwise you will have everyone able to buy the title rank gear immediately, and that throws it right back into the tailspin that it is already in.  But it won't have to wait very long, just until the average PvP toll of the players on the server is like 500 or so.  (250 kills and 250 deaths, or any combination totaling 500)</p><p>I am still researching the rewards a bit, there is lots of useful ideas in this forum that have been submitted by players, but I see a lot of flaming and admin jabbing to go with it.  Probably makes SoE not really read it.  Which is too bad, there is a lot of valuable information and suggestions in here. </p><p>Speaking of, for those of you that read the first part to this, I apologize because some admin who apparently didn't read the entirety of my part 1 thread about the warfield, believes that my NEW idea for a warfields revamp belongs in some other thread category and has locked the thread.  So if you want to reply to it, I do apologize as it is experiencing technical difficulties that I would imagine will be cleared up soon.  If for some reason it doesn't, please feel free to shoot me a PM with your idea or feedback, and I would be happy to post it on there as soon as it is unlocked, if you don't get to it first. </p><p>I would say post it in here, and just say it's about part 1, but I don't want any of you players to get restricted, squelched, muted, or whatever they do in here for posting about another topic in this thread, even though they are  related in so much as things that must be done to fix PvP, and I have given permission.  The admin might get bent out of shape about it, even though the locking of Part 1 was what did it in the first place.</p><p>Thank you all for reading by the way, I do appreciate it.</p>

Dorsan
06-28-2010, 10:52 PM
TL DR But the part the guy above me quoted is horrible.

Hilt
06-29-2010, 02:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>TL DR But the part the guy above me quoted is horrible.</blockquote><p>Looking at it in the context of the rest that you didnt read, says a lot.</p>