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Hilt
06-28-2010, 01:09 PM
<p>How many people went to Antonica or Commonlands, got the chaos flag, and evaced/rezzed/ran to an immune spot either on the docks or at a rez point?</p><p>/discuss</p>

Wytie
06-28-2010, 01:15 PM
<p>Sure after wondering around for 15-20min during each of the WF and only seeing greys or other Q's....</p><p>Sitting in immunity for 30+ min isnt almost even worth the 5 free tokens. Considering if you dont make it to the zone in less than 2min after the 1st WF message is up then have to wait 10 more min just for it to start. Meaning 40min of doing nothing gets you 5 tokens.</p><p>This will not last. FFS remove perma immunity from CL and Ant atleast dam.</p>

Wytie
06-28-2010, 01:25 PM
<p>People will /afk tokens untill you make it to where we cant.</p><p>Until they do, more and more people are going to fill up the zone and /afk for free tokens.</p><p>Free tokens was dumb anyway, all the had to do is make it so writs give double or triple rewards during a WF event, that way you still have to kill people to get tokens and not /afk it.</p>

zyllith
06-28-2010, 01:27 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How many people went to Antonica or Commonlands, got the chaos flag, and evaced/rezzed/ran to an immune spot either on the docks or at a rez point?</p><p>/discuss</p></blockquote><p>I've been hitting the WF's pretty hard on Nag since they started, and I'd say about 60% of the folks hang around.  Now, there's no question that there are cycles: in Ant the Q's hang around the hill and the FP's circle around and move from tower to tower in waves -- that's standard "split the herd" behaviour, watch Animal Planet for lions attacking a herd of zebra to understand that.  The Q's on the hill will wait for either an FP to engage or attack the tower, and they will zerg the toon -- again, zerg behaviour is very standard, watch any shark feeding frenzy on Animal Planet to understand that.</p><p>CL is very similar, except that the "wave" of Q's moving from tower to tower is much larger and also more effective: they move to one tower, burn it down, move to another, etc.  Here the Q's mainly hang around the edge of the tower waiting for any FP's, FP's wait for people running to/ from the spawn points, etc.  This is mainly chokepoint kills for the FP's, feeding swarm for the Q's ...</p><p>In both areas you have another tactic at work by the FP's, "draw and kill"; Animal Planet, tuna against sardines.  Here the T3 and T4 FP's will make a "run" through the cluster of T5 Q's attempting to draw out any T3 or T4 Q's inside of the cluster, or attempt to engage them in the cluster as long as there aren't too many T2 Q's around.  If they can engage they will attempt to draw the Q as far away from the cluster as possible then attack before the T2 Q's can feeding frenzy zerg them.</p><p>Again, I'd say that about 60% of the people getting the flag are staying engaged to the end of the event ... maybe they are not sitting around quietly next to the tower, but they are staying engaged to the event ...</p>

Neskonlith
06-28-2010, 01:43 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I've been crafting up a storm on my 4th and 5th alt while I await fixes for the Warfails, but I'm not holding my breath.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Thing is, I only have a handful of pvp pieces across all my characters - I refuse to cheat the lockout system for free gear, and I'm often far far too late getting to the Warfails and I am subsequently locked out, so no freebies are to be found.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The longer I go gaining valuable levels on crafting and pve, the less I care about silly, bullcrud, non-lore related open-pvp restrictions and lag: we're at "war", yet we are only allowed to have tiny battles.  If I wanted tiny battles, I'd go BeeGees.  Whatever.  Crafting FTW!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Remember folks: Freeport crafters produce superior products compared to the shoddy workmanship from Qeynos sweatshops!!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /></p>

Ammem
06-28-2010, 01:48 PM
<p>I ended up doing that on multiple locations due to lag and when I attack 2 oranges only to have 100 greys load 2 minutes later and attack me.</p>

raydenwins
06-28-2010, 02:14 PM
Interesting what people discover. Sounds more fun to sit immune rather than pvp in warfield lag. Tried several times to actually pvp during wf, un-fun.

Gretcheen
06-28-2010, 02:27 PM
<p>Change Antonica back to a 4 Level range, as it should be. After all, it is a Tier 2 zone !!</p>

Sigtyr
06-28-2010, 03:17 PM
<p>Well we had some epic battles in T4 in Ant on both Friday and Saturday, full groups of Qs against the premade lvl 35 freep that has been praying on the Q soloers. I died several times and it is not easy to get something rollong against a premade, but we did and we had a blast at least i did, and some lag but if you move away from the towers it gets better.</p><p>If you are proactive and DO things you will have fun, and it is almost better to do anything than to do nothing. I got 3 writs done on Saturday during WFs, i died some times to but that is what its all about.</p><p>Zunnder of The Temple Guardians</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-28-2010, 03:46 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Change Antonica back to a 4 Level range, as it should be. After all, it is a Tier 2 zone !!</p></blockquote><p>No</p>

NoPetKitty
06-28-2010, 11:07 PM
<p>I will have to say I have done no afk token hustling.  But then again, I really didnt read much into warfields when it first came out, but I heard about it nearly the second day it was out.  Pretty bad when the exploits are discussed that openly and rather than fix it, they break it.  I don't personally look for easy ways to gain tokens, I am out PvPing, but I have to agree with the Animal Planet comments wholeheartedly.</p><p>Nice playing by those players, that is the way PvP should be done, with tactics when brute force won't work.  It is the only reason I loathe not being a Freeporter, group coordination is better over there, but it is starting to get better on the Qeynos side.  (My guess is because Freeporters are coming over haha.)</p>

zyllith
06-29-2010, 01:13 PM
<p><cite>NoPetKitty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I will have to say I have done no afk token hustling.  But then again, I really didnt read much into warfields when it first came out, but I heard about it nearly the second day it was out.  Pretty bad when the exploits are discussed that openly and rather than fix it, they break it.  I don't personally look for easy ways to gain tokens, I am out PvPing, but I have to agree with the Animal Planet comments wholeheartedly.</p><p>Nice playing by those players, that is the way PvP should be done, with tactics when brute force won't work.  It is the only reason I loathe not being a Freeporter, group coordination is better over there, but it is starting to get better on the Qeynos side.  (My guess is because Freeporters are coming over haha.)</p></blockquote><p>It's actually quite fascinating to watch the development of the different side tactics, and this parallels the development of predator/ prey tactics almost 1:1 ...</p><p>Right now the FP's are used to be the newbie one-shot killers, so the Generals/ Overseers are really having a tough time of it in the WF's.  Most FP's don't group, especially the high fame ones, and are whacked almost upon sight by the "grey herd" of Q's.  Once they learn to group, however, they get very good [the Jesters on Nag are getting this, *very* efficient group, they can clear the field of greys in a few minutes].  They are also learning to make slashing runs through the Q's and try to draw out solo's/ small groups far enough that they can engage them, just like most small predator fish will do with schools ...</p><p>The Q's are getting pretty good at operating as a swarm, but because they are still thinking as individuals the FP's are just able to outrun them until enough Q's fall back that they can regroup or attack the Q's remaining.  Once the Q's learn to start acting as a group (so, dropping roots/ stifles/ stuns rather than O spells) then they will get much more efficient at bringing down the FP's making the slashing runs ...</p><p>Really, just fascinating to watch ...</p>

Taldier
06-29-2010, 07:00 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>NoPetKitty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I will have to say I have done no afk token hustling.  But then again, I really didnt read much into warfields when it first came out, but I heard about it nearly the second day it was out.  Pretty bad when the exploits are discussed that openly and rather than fix it, they break it.  I don't personally look for easy ways to gain tokens, I am out PvPing, but I have to agree with the Animal Planet comments wholeheartedly.</p><p>Nice playing by those players, that is the way PvP should be done, with tactics when brute force won't work.  It is the only reason I loathe not being a Freeporter, group coordination is better over there, but it is starting to get better on the Qeynos side.  (My guess is because Freeporters are coming over haha.)</p></blockquote><p>It's actually quite fascinating to watch the development of the different side tactics, and this parallels the development of predator/ prey tactics almost 1:1 ...</p><p>Right now the FP's are used to be the newbie one-shot killers, so the Generals/ Overseers are really having a tough time of it in the WF's.  Most FP's don't group, especially the high fame ones, and are whacked almost upon sight by the "grey herd" of Q's.  Once they learn to group, however, they get very good [the Jesters on Nag are getting this, *very* efficient group, they can clear the field of greys in a few minutes].  They are also learning to make slashing runs through the Q's and try to draw out solo's/ small groups far enough that they can engage them, just like most small predator fish will do with schools ...</p><p>The Q's are getting pretty good at operating as a swarm, but because they are still thinking as individuals the FP's are just able to outrun them until enough Q's fall back that they can regroup or attack the Q's remaining.  Once the Q's learn to start acting as a group (so, dropping roots/ stifles/ stuns rather than O spells) then they will get much more efficient at bringing down the FP's making the slashing runs ...</p><p>Really, just fascinating to watch ...</p></blockquote><p>Out on the savanna angry lions arent prevented from defending their food from packs of hyenas by invisible forcefields.</p>

zyllith
06-29-2010, 08:59 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Out on the savanna angry lions arent prevented from defending their food from packs of hyenas by invisible forcefields.</p></blockquote><p>Quite right ... but continue the story; *why* aren't those hyena's simply a quick appetizer before the main course?  What *does* the hyena do since they don't have the invisible forcefield?</p><p>Note the speed and agility of the individual hyena's; one quarter of the size and weight of the larger lion, it seems to move pretty quickly out of the way of the grumpy lion when the hyena's get close to the lion's kill ... which is apparently how nature protects the hyena: not with a forcefield, but with better speed and agility then the lion</p><p>Put another way, what would be the reaction if greys were carnage flagged upon engaging, but that flag also gave them a +50% in combat run speed buff and made them immune to roots during the duration of that flag?</p>

Taldier
06-29-2010, 09:49 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected]nekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Out on the savanna angry lions arent prevented from defending their food from packs of hyenas by invisible forcefields.</p></blockquote><p>Quite right ... but continue the story; *why* aren't those hyena's simply a quick appetizer before the main course?  What *does* the hyena do since they don't have the invisible forcefield?</p><p>Note the speed and agility of the individual hyena's; one quarter of the size and weight of the larger lion, it seems to move pretty quickly out of the way of the grumpy lion when the hyena's get close to the lion's kill ... which is apparently how nature protects the hyena: not with a forcefield, but with better speed and agility then the lion</p><p>Put another way, what would be the reaction if greys were carnage flagged upon engaging, but that flag also gave them a +50% in combat run speed buff and made them immune to roots during the duration of that flag?</p></blockquote><p>It is amusing to watch how analogous reasoning can twist itself.</p><p>Anything can be logically proven from a false assumption.</p><p>Just think for a moment and see if you can figure out the glaring error in your swarm predator dynamic in the context of rpg pvp, especially eq2.</p><p>...</p><p>This is not a simulation of animal behaivor.  It is a simulation of combat between intelligent beings, all of which are given <span style="text-decoration: underline;">equal oppurtunities</span>.  Nature has no premise for turning a hyena into a lion, nor an ant into a spider.  Hyenas do not choose to be hyenas so that they can help lions kill other lions.</p><p>Any animal which knowingly chose (lvl locking) to be an inferior animal would not be adhering to the very law of the jungle you are professing.</p><p>You cannot make the analogy that huge groups of low level players, or simply bad t9 players, or most often both at the same time, are equivalent to swarm predators.  Its just too absurd to stand.</p><p>And yes, because of the server stability and underlying targetting mechanics of the simulation I would far perfer that lowbies could quickly run away from me rather than have the ability to effect combat by exploiting their immunity and all running into the middle of end game pvp combat while still immune.</p>

zyllith
06-29-2010, 10:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You cannot make the analogy that huge groups of low level players, or simply bad t9 players, or most often both at the same time, are equivalent to swarm predators.  Its just too absurd to stand.</blockquote><p>Yet that is exactly what *is* happening, and what is so fascinating to watch ...</p><p>Go to the Ant WF, stand on the hill and just watch; don't engage, die if have to, but just watch.  You will see the following:</p><p>- A cluster of T5 and T6 Q's, with a few T4's and some T2's.</p><p>- A band of T2 FP's over by the tower, another band of T3 FP's over by the gnolls/ lake, a few T5, T7 and T8 FP's over at the docks.</p><p>Once the guardians pop then the T5 FP's will move to near visual range of the tower and hover.  The T2 and T3 FP's will begin to circle the hill, and the T8 FP's will attempt to ding the tower guardians.  Once they do that then the T5 and T6 Q's will start to swarm them; the T8 FP's will retreat, and start kiting the string of Q's off the hill to try to lower the number of grey's attacking and to get a target lock on one.  At the same time, this will expose both the T4 and T2 Q's on the hill, through which the T5 FP's will then make high speed runs through the T4 Q's on the hill, not engaging but just running through.  Any T4's that take the bait and run after the strafing T5's are swarmed by the T5's on the fringes.  At the same time the FP T2's will attempt to engage the Q T2's on the hill, disengaging when any T4's return to the hill.</p><p>This goes on quite regularly and predictably; the Q's on the hill are kited, stragglers are picked off, larger FP's that can't run fast enough are taken down by the swarm of grey Q's, FP's make strafing runs, etc.</p><p>Now compare this to the Animal Kingdom; you've got each of these predatory tactics operating in the same way.  Mass of prey wil stragglers picked off?  A sardine school under attack by tuna, which rush through the school to spook individuals which are then picked off on the edges.  Larger prey brought down by smaller predators?  African bush dogs going after zebra's.  Smaller predators going after the scraps when the big dogs are busy?  Vultures and hyena's pestering a lion's kill.</p><p>The basic reason for this is also similar: because it works.  Greys's know they can get bring down higher tiers by massing and darting in and out, slightly higher tiers know they can get updates by drawing out individual toons beyond the range of their buddies, etc ...</p><p>It's not bad mechanics, it's simple animal behaviour 101.  If I got a FRAPS of an Ant WF and put Marlin Perkins on the soundtrack I could likely sell it to the Animal Planet ...</p>

Taldier
06-29-2010, 10:46 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You cannot make the analogy that huge groups of low level players, or simply bad t9 players, or most often both at the same time, are equivalent to swarm predators.  Its just too absurd to stand.</p></blockquote><p>Yet that is exactly what *is* happening, and what is so fascinating to watch ...</p><p>...</p><p>...</p><p>It's not bad mechanics, it's simple animal behaviour 101.  If I got a FRAPS of an Ant WF and put Marlin Perkins on the soundtrack I could likely sell it to the Animal Planet ...</p></blockquote><p>Players are not a varied collection of animals in a study.  They all begin at an equal starting point, their actions (and even which kind of "animal" they are) are driven by concious choice to manipulate game mechanics.</p><p>The animal kingdom is not "balanced".  It is not a game.  Nor is it easily contained in the analogy of some lazy sociology student.</p><p>And your ability to read fails.</p>

YasikoSetsu
06-30-2010, 05:00 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You cannot make the analogy that huge groups of low level players, or simply bad t9 players, or most often both at the same time, are equivalent to swarm predators.  Its just too absurd to stand.</p></blockquote><p>Yet that is exactly what *is* happening, and what is so fascinating to watch ...</p><p>...</p><p>...</p><p>It's not bad mechanics, it's simple animal behaviour 101.  If I got a FRAPS of an Ant WF and put Marlin Perkins on the soundtrack I could likely sell it to the Animal Planet ...</p></blockquote><p>Players are not a varied collection of animals in a study.  They all begin at an equal starting point, their actions (and even which kind of "animal" they are) are driven by concious choice to manipulate game mechanics.</p><p>The animal kingdom is not "balanced".  It is not a game.  Nor is it easily contained in the analogy of some lazy sociology student.</p><p>And your ability to read fails.</p></blockquote><p>I like to pretend I'm a prowling ninja laser tiger when I'm stealthmoding around commonlands, waiting to punce my prey as they lock themselves in combat with random assorted red con player.</p><p>So I can see how I might skew his results, sorry...    ._.</p>