View Full Version : A replacement for the destroyed and broken warfields

06-24-2010, 08:23 PM
<p>Note:  This was originally a reply to another topic but I think this may warrant it's own Thread.</p><p>The original topic is this one:</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=478759">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=478759</a></p><p>I have to say I agree entirely with the "Wrath of God" type deletions, starting with the PVP developer.   A lot of people don't know this, but he is the same developer that ruined another PVP system in another of SoE's games.  The force is DEFINITELY not with this guy, and now here he is messing with EQ2 PVP.  Is SoE that hard up for designers that they have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and keep a guy that already messed up one of their games?  I say demote him to mail clerk, that might be a bit more appropriate, given this dev's apparent lack of understanding of more complex systems.</p><p>Now that I have said my piece about that worthless excuse for a game developer, onto my "Armegeddon" suggestions.</p><p>Warfields:  Start over.  Torch it entirely.  It was a good idea, but as per usual with SoE's things, they release something and then they beat it to death with the nerf bat.  Much to contrary belief (and the dismay at the price of Nerf stocks) ther is a different way to do this.  Ever heard of in-house exploitation prior to release?  It is very similar to the adopt a con program of the late 80's.  You hire some known exploiters to actually do what they do best... exploit a beta pre release version before you actually put a new system live.</p><p>Replace warfields with this:  Develop a storyline in such a way that Lucan and Antonia would like to meet on a private war field with a selection of their best warriors( the people who play this game, LVL 50 and higher), in an attempt for each faction to "use" each other to hone their skills for the coming major battle.  As Antonia and Lucan are both opportunists in their own ways, they themselves will be joining the field of battle.</p><p>The scene:  Put a mini-spire in a big empty center area in Freeport(sorry dont remember which area it is, I think West), and replace the fountain in North Qeynos with a one as well.  These "doorways" lead to a special instance(Access quest?)  that occurs every hour of every day, and lasts for 30 mins.  Each player can join this instance 5 times per day.  Lets face it, if you play more than this, you need to get out more.  Not everyone plays more than 2.5 hours a day, but it is a good average.</p><p>The setup:  In order to be "fair" (I laugh, because I know exploiters will scream bloody murder)  A new system for entry will have to be created.  Once the instance entry becomes active, players may enter a queue to go into the instance.  Once there are at least 5 freeporters and 5 qeynosians queued up, the instance begins to cycle entry.  Either side may add up to 5 more people at this point once the instance is opened.  The instance will open only when 10 players (5 from each side) have all clicked the button to enter into the instance from the pop up message.  The queue will send the entry messages on a first come first serve basis, with a 30 second timer before going to the next eligible player in queue. </p><p>NEITHER SIDE MAY HAVE MORE THAN A 5 PERSON ADVANTAGE AT ANY TIME.  That means if there are 10 qeynosians in the instance and only 5 freeporters, additional qeynosian players may not join until 1 or more freeport players join and vice versa.  Since this is an instance, it will be a simple matter to lock out all forms of teleport and veteran calls.  The only way to join an open instance is by going through the queue screen (papers please...hehe).  Once a player has Joined the queue, a.K.a:  a waiting list, once the faction conditions for entering have been met, that player will recieve an entry pop up message with a 30 second timer, based on a first come first serve basis.</p><p>This process will continue until there are 50 players from each faction in the instance.  At this point the instance is full, and a new instance will open in the manner that first one opened.  This is both to prevent uneeded instances from opening, as well as keep the conditions fair to both sides.  The addtitional stipulations are that the full instance must be full for 5 minutes before a new instance is offered by the queue manager screen, and the earth time must not be more than 20 minutes past the hour.  If either one of these conditions are not met, the queue manager will not open a new instance. </p><p>There will be a countdown within the queue manager once the first instance has acheived "Full" status.  This timer will cease to countdown if the first instance loses even one player.  The countdown will then restart at 5 minutes, if the instance has once again acheived full status. </p><p>If the conditions have been met for the queue manager to offer a new instance, there will be an additional condition for starting for this new instance, in addition to 5 players from each faction.  The first instance must remain full while the new instance is queuing up players.  If the first instance fails to maintain "full" status while players are queuing up on the new instance, the entry message cycle will not start until full status is again acheived on the first instance. </p><p>Once the entry cycle starts however, the instance will populate and "zone" in 5 queued players from each faction starting the new instance regardless of the current status of the previous instance.</p><p>To interject just a bit here, I know this sounds very similiar to the Battlefields entry system, with a few exceptions.  The battlefields entry system is a decent system, it is just not well thought out.  Essitially this new system is an upgrade to the existing one.  Also, the queue manager for this instance will only be taking players from the appropriate PVP (or Red) servers, and will be hosted on the server itself.  The downside to the Battlefields server is that I guarentee that the server they have running that is probably less powerful than my computer at home, let alone the one that I work on.  For the information that server has to crunch and compile, incoming from ALL OTHER different servers, it should be nothing short of amazing.  But knowing SOE, they probably have went the route of being cheap at the advice of someone who didn't think this all the way through.  Personally, I think PVP servers don't even need access to the battlefields, as all we have to do is step out of immunity, and ta da... battlefield.  But, I digress...</p><p>The Gameplay of the instance:  When players zone in they will be met with a scenario that has both stationary obstacles and NPC obstacles.  Please read this next line carefully:  THE EFFECTIVE LEVEL OF ALL PLAYERS WILL BE REDUCED TO AN EQUIVELENT LEVEL FOR THE ZONE.  Therefore, it doesnt matter what level you are (so long as you meet the minimum of 50 to get in) everyone will have their effective level reduced, so that everyone can PVP, and there is no more ganking by higher level players.  The idea is not to one-shot people, but to PVP battle. </p><p>This obviously means that the people with the better gear win... right?  WRONG.  Although the PVP gear will still be more powerful, it will not OVERPOWER the raid gear any longer at this reduction.  PVP gear will still have some additional effect(s), as was always intended, but it will not be so much more powerful that it is laughable.  In addition to this it makes those with only Mastercrafted armor and weapons (typically lower level players) still able to contribute something to the fight.  This is not to say that having PVP gear won't be a big help, and more often than not tip the scales in your favor, but if you get jumped by a full group of players with raid gear, you will not be able to overpower them any longer.</p><p>The overall point of this instance is to essentially have players learn about the finesse of PVP fighting.  Not have the better gear and one shot your opponent.  Why some find that fun I don't know, and I never will, and I won't even speculate on the possible mentality behind finding such things fun.</p><p>This zone will be a city setting, with some familiar elements from Qeynos, and some familiar elements from Freeport.  There will be crates, boxes, roofs that you can get up on, corners, alleys, and all normal aspects associated with such a city setting.  These are your terrain obstacles.  Line of sight is enforced heavily in here.  (BTW hiding behind a crate or merchant stall post won't do it for all those smacking their lips at the expliots.) </p><p>For example:  If you duck behind a building while a spell is being cast at you (PVP combat only) when the spell finishes the casting player will recieve a no line of sight message, and the spell will reset as if it had been resisted.</p><p>If this spell was an AOE spell, line of sight has no effect, only range, and will land as normal.  Directional AOE's that require line of sight, will still be subject to the aforementioned example.</p><p>So nothing terribly different from the rest of the game mechanics, other than you will have to utilize the terrain obstacles to your advantage.</p><p>In this zone, all the Freeport players and all the Qeynosian players each start on their opposite (east/west or north/south whichever, easier to do east/west) sides and make their way though the expanse of this city setting through various street ways towards the other side.  Initially along their way each faction will see their own faction's guards, until they make it to the middle of the zone, where there are no guard NPC's.  This is also the only real open area in all the zone, as there is a city center in a circle.  There are still obstacles like a fountain, merchant stalls, and various objects to jump on, but for the most part it is far more open than the city streets. </p><p>You must engage at least one PVP player, and/or guard to recieve a 40 minute buff called Spirit of the Fight.  This is your token reward buff.  Failure to engage in one fight, PVP or NPC, means you get nothing, irregardless of which side wins.  The zone instance will also check for inactivity on a more aggressive basis.  If you go more than 5 minutes with no input from mouse or keyboard, you will be shot back to the character select screen, which will kick you from the instance automatically.  Most players should not have a problem with this, as it is a small discomfort to put up with to avoid easy exploitation.</p><p>Should a faction member cross over to the opposite faction side, via through breaking through the main area of the city center, or the side streets they will encounter the other factions guards, which will be aggro obviously.  The guards that patrol the streets closest to the city area will be the weakest, gradually getting stronger toward the faction start point. </p><p>There are green, blue and white guards, as well as the faction leader.  All Guard NPC's are normal type mob templates, not heroic up or down or anything like that. The Faction leader is a single arrow up heroic, of the white color.</p><p>There are only a few green guards, that should be avoided or run away from.  They don't really hurt you, give no experience, they do a lot of debuffing and slowing, but if you kill one, you recieve a 10 minute debuff that is called dishonor.</p><p>Dishonor examine description reads:  "You flex your muscles, and show your superior might, but no one is really impressed.  When it's all said and done, your still just a bully."  This debuff slows your attack by 10%, and will be given out to all people involved in the combat, i.e "on the aggro list", when the guard is killed.</p><p>The green guards have a VERY short aggro range (like talking darn near touch aggro range), and do not "look" up above their head.  These guys should be easily avoidable. All green guards however, see invis.</p><p>The blue guards are a little bit more mean, do more damage than green guards, but mostly watch out for the stun and run speed debuffs.  These are the middle defense type guards designed to be the point where most players get tangled up.  Their aggro range is only a couple of steps, but it is a couple of steps in any direction, and you can be above them and get aggro if you are not high enough above them.  Killing one of these guards will not cost you anything, other than time, and with the debuffs they give you, an opposite faction PVPer may just take advantage of that.</p><p>The white guards are ones that you have to watch out for.  They can do enough outright damage coupled with their effects to kill a moderate to under geared player if you are not careful.  The type of effects they give out are hp and power bleed type effects. </p><p>Killing one of these guards gives you a 10 minute buff called Overcoming the Defenses which increases your attack speed by 10%.  Overcoming the Defenses examine description reads:  People are impressed that you picked on someone your own size, and broke through the defenses, giving you a feeling of accomplishment." </p><p>This buff will only be given out to the player that lands the killing blow on a white guard.  Choose wisely and watch your damage if you already have the buff because it does not stack.</p><p>The end faction leader (Lucan or Antonia) will be surrounded by 3 white guards that are linked, they are an encounter.  This is to prevent "one-player ganking" or "cheesing". Or whatever they call it now.  Plus there should be a healthy number of players around to help in the defense.</p><p>Should The faction leader fall to 1% life in battle, the faction leader becomes unattackable, and congratulates players IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, and the instance is over.  All buffed players will receive their rewards when they zone back into their faction's city that they started from. </p><p>As stated, token reward is based upon having the Spirit of the Fight buff.</p><p>Win = Taking the Faction leader down to 1% life  = 30 TokensLoss = Having your Faction leader defeated = 15 tokensTie = Neither side's faction leader is defeated = 10 tokens for each side.</p><p>Why do you get more for losing rather than having a tie?  Simple.  If you have a tie, that means that neither side could really eek out over the other, and/or were not powerful enough, and/or enough members, and/or everyone just PVPed, which gives them writ updates, which gives tokens as well.</p><p>A payment setup this way ensures that there will be a healthy participation as everyone will want to have that 30 token give out, and if your faction wins all 5 times that you go in for the day, that is 150 tokens, which is a decent piece of gear.</p><p>But you have to win first.</p><p>That is essentially it in a nutshell, other than some general changes to PVP that take a LOT of consideration.  But that is what should replace this silly warfields thing.  Put some effort and thought into it for your paying customers, it's the least you can do.</p><p>Before you flame this post, I am addressing the concerns of most general players in the game. </p><p>If your character has all the high end PVP gear and have all masters and have done everything there is to do.  Great, I am acutally quite happy for you.  But I could give a rat's butt less about your concerns for the game.  Shut up, sit down and be quiet and enjoy the ride until something new comes along for you to do, or get out and read a book, go fishing, go to a ball game, go stalk some hot girl you'll never have a chance with, I don't care, just think before you flame and don't come to the battle of wits unarmed.  It took me far longer to type this post out than to think it all up. </p><p>But I always appriciate constructive feedback from mature and experienced players, if you have something to add, or maybe something I didn't consider.</p><p>If you are a lower level player, and/or just aren't geared that well, you have a wonderful opportunity here.  Seek the advice of more veteran players within your faction, see if you can learn from them, or figure out how to outsmart an opponent on the field, and you can get yourself into some PVP gear later on so you can stand up to those that already have it.  Sure, you may be cannon fodder in this instance, but dont let that discourage you, we all were at one point.  Those that say otherwise are either lying, or they exploited into their gear.  In either case, a good fact to remember.</p><p>Finally, for the most part this is aimed at the remaining players that want to PVP, but have found it frustrating because they cannot stand up to PVP geared players at all.  I am not saying that this will make much of a difference in that, but if you show the courage to take them on in this instance, well, that should be worth something right?  (Also, there is the whole thing about getting those PVP high end geared players to show up with their advantage lessened.)  This is the chance to catch up to them.</p><p>I know everyone will have different opinions on this and that, but this is the best idea I could dream up.  It will probably never happen, so if you are going to flame, keep that in mind.  I know it's fun to flame and torch, and what not, but do it in fun, that is all I ask.</p><p>Also, this is the first step in a series of "wrath of god" type revamps.  The next is to address the mess that is main world type PVP.  But I am too tired for that at the moment. </p><p>Thanks for reading the novel!</p>

06-24-2010, 09:36 PM
So you want a PvP server only battleground map?

06-25-2010, 09:53 AM

06-25-2010, 10:22 AM
<p>CliffsNotes please</p>

06-25-2010, 11:44 AM
<p><cite>NoPetKitty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>...It took me far longer to type this post out than to think it all up....</blockquote><p>Explains alot.</p>

06-25-2010, 11:57 AM
<p><cite>NoPetKitty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But I always appriciate constructive feedback from mature and experienced players, if you have something to add, or maybe something I didn't consider.</p></blockquote><p>Your idea, even though well thought out, sums up to be just another, big Battleground map. An instanced version of whatever is killing the idea of open world PvP, because it's... not <strong>open</strong>.</p><p>Fighting against the odds, being able to call for reinforcements etc. is what our server and PvP style is about. Your idea would be another nail in the coffin.</p>

06-25-2010, 12:03 PM
<p>I suggested in an earlier post making Warfields a timed event that calculated KvD for each faction, with the winner having the highest overall KvD. </p><p>This would be much better imo; no need for spawning stupid towers that turn what should be a pvp-only event into a pve/pvp event. </p><p>The objective of Warfields should be to destroy as many of your enemies as possible while suffering as few losses as possible.</p><p>KvD ftw.</p>

06-25-2010, 10:07 PM
<p>3 doors to the arena -- include exiles..</p>

06-25-2010, 11:10 PM
<p>horrible idea sorry i couldnt get through half of it , assumed the second half ot the post was as bad as the first half.....</p>

06-26-2010, 02:05 PM
<p>Sadly we the players made a far better warfield than any soe dev ever thought of kp wars where alot more balanced didnt lag near as bad and from what ive seen in cha tpeople had alot more fun heck even ss was more fun than this trash    </p><p>PROTECT FAUTUNA  NOWWWW</p>

06-26-2010, 02:31 PM
your post was way too long. i only read like 3 sentences. you can't srsly blame the dev here. pvp is a community sport. if you lumped all the pvpers into 3 categories for what they wanted, ie 1 group that wants zerg, 1 that wants even fights, and 1 that wants to just gank, you would basically have nagafen. the dev has to try to make all 3 of these 'factions' happy. he can't. they are conflicting ideals. you can't have a gankers haven, and a fair fight system, at the same time. ok here's where it falls on the players: if the system supports zerg, it's not supporting fair fights, right ? well the ppl that want fair fights say 'THIS ISN'T REAL PVP I'M GONNA GO RAGE QUIT ON THE FORUMS' and leave for bg's or something. the gankers seem to be ok with leeching, so they are ok with hanging out on the fringes of the zerg filling writs. well, the zergers notice the fair fight ppl are all gone, and come to the decision that the zerg is dying, so they cut out. so then you have a few ppl ganking left over. my observation.

06-28-2010, 12:58 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>NoPetKitty wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But I always appriciate constructive feedback from mature and experienced players, if you have something to add, or maybe something I didn't consider.</p></blockquote><p>Your idea, even though well thought out, sums up to be just another, big Battleground map. An instanced version of whatever is killing the idea of open world PvP, because it's... not <strong>open</strong>.</p><p>Fighting against the odds, being able to call for reinforcements etc. is what our server and PvP style is about. Your idea would be another nail in the coffin.</p></blockquote><p>I selected this quote because it has the most impact and best feedback.  Yes, essentially it is another battleground map.  If fact, it would be the replacement battleground map as well as the warfields.  PvP servers, in my opinion of course, don't need access to the battlegrounds.  We are the elite of PvPers, there really isn't a need for us to go and "prove" it to the other servers, because we have gear that they can't even compete with.  (Let alone the issues with the server that hosts battlegrounds.)</p><p>If the rest of the servers want to come fiddle with us, the easiest answer to that isn't a battlegrounds, but for SoE to allow character transfers TO (and I stress that) the PVP servers.  They could even allow transfers off of the PvP servers, but they would have to remove all the toughness from PvP gear, as well as have a standard conversion in place.  Really they are missing out on a very good income generating service, because they could charge a little more for transfers to and from PvP servers.  I am sure that there are other reasons why you cannot do this transfer, but I am sure SoE has their reasons.  But again I digress...</p><p>As far as open world PvP goes, I am not entirely sure that it isn't dead already.  Poke it with a stick, see if it twitches.  If it does, it has to be on a life support system with the backup generators failing.  In my next thread that you will see from me, I will address this, as this post was only the first in many "wrath of God" type deletions/revamps.  Without the other information, I agree wholeheartedly that it would destroy open world PvP, as there would no longer be an incentive to even go out there.</p><p>Thank you for the input though.</p><p>Now as far as some of the other responses go:</p><p>Yes, I am long-winded in typing, but I try to make it worth the read.To include exiles would be impossible with the given storyline that goes with it.  But it's not that hard to join a faction and then exile again.  A KvD status would be good, but too easy to exploit in the given scenario.  I know you are thinking that it would take some effort, but not really, all you would have to do is bring in your opposite faction character and run him to the nearest player.  You could even use it to catch up if you are falling behind.  If there was some way to lock out accounts from participating with opposite faction characters once a different character has already started their run on the instance, then it might be possible to work in.  If so, it would eliminate the stalemate reward, and give an alternate victory reward instead.  Not a bad suggestion, thanks.</p><p>I do blame it on the Developer.  There is a track record of PvP development issues with this developer, and as I pay for the game, which makes me a customer, I have every right to express my disatisfaction with this employee.  Most people forget that this is business first, then a game.  If your Internet service started becoming flakey, or not functioning properly or at all, would you just sit and wait for them to fix it?  Of course not, you'd be on the phone asking what the issue was.</p><p>Since the Developer himself and SoE are too scared to give out the direct line so I can call him up and discuss a few things myself with him, as well as suggestions for improvement, guess I will just have to use the forums as a way to express my dissatisfaction with it, as well as offer my suggestions because A LOT of SoE's PvP players (or rather, customers) are dissatisfied with this aspect of it's service.  I don't mind discussing my dissatisfaction in private, but let's face it, I don't have that option, because they put a fortress wall up, and there is no point at yelling at customer service on the phone, that is usually just some poor sap being paid 10 an hour to read from a script. </p><p>Some of the players themselves are to blame as well.  But ultimately it is the Developer that creates broken things based upon what your three groups scream about. </p><p>But you also pointed out the main point:  "You can't have a gankers haven, and a fair fight system [at the same time]"</p><p>That is 100% accurate.  Truth be told, the "wrath of god" deletions/revamps that I have in mind cater only to the fair fight players, and force "zerg" players to use some tactics, as well as make "gankers" either particpate or get nothing.  I believe this is how it should be, and how it should of been from the get go, and that should of been the continuous strive to maintain it.  I do not believe that has been the case, otherwise there would not be so much widespread dissatisfaction.</p><p>As callous as it may sound, I could care less about the two ends of the spectrums on the bell curve.  I don't believe PvP is about zerging or leeching for updates, it should be about participating, playing well, fighting worthy opponents, and getting rewarded.  More to come about that in my next thread.</p><p>Finally, I am happy to see that only two or three flamers felt the need to post.  Not that they will read the entirety of this response, because media and written communication seems to be weakness of theirs.  But it does go to show that the majority of responses were from other intelligent players out there willing to contribute their valued input on a serious matter.</p><p>Thank you all for your input and I am working on coming up with suggestions for fixes for open world PvP that will hopefully breathe some new life into it.</p><p>Reason for edit:  Typo's suck.</p>

06-28-2010, 02:14 PM
<p>1) This didn't warrant its own thread.  If there's an active discussion, post your thoughts there.</p><p>2)  Don't personally attack others on these forums.  Players, developers, or even the postman.</p><p>3) Thank you and have a lovely day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>