Why is the guardian glass so under powered compared to the other three?

[Landiin]

<p>Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on this topic.</p><p><ul><li>least DPS</li><li>least TPS</li><li>least hate building abilities</li><li>no utilities to speak of</li></ul><div>Why are they on the bottom of most of ability categories?</div></p>

[Garnaf]

<p>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</p><p>ok, enough of that.  Guardians have some of the BEST survival tools in the game (Guardian Sphere, Tower of Stone, blah blah blah).  It's hard for a guardian to go down, especially with a healer worth their salt.</p><p>You have FAR from the least threat (how many abilities do you have that generate threat? If it's more than 4, not counting rescue and sneering assault, then you're ahead of the curve)</p><p>DPS is a matter of gear, remember that warrior types (Guardians and Berserkers) do the VAST majority of their damage via auto attack at the high end, gear for that.</p><p>And as far as utility?  Groupwide Moderate.  Yesplz.</p><p>If you want the most underpowered fighters?  Monks, followed by bruisers, after that it gets blurry very fast.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>And yet another complaining thread without any useful ideas to address some of the areas that Guards seem to be lacking in.</p><p>What exactly is the purpose of posting on this same subject with nothing constructive given?</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</p><p>ok, enough of that.  Guardians have some of the BEST survival tools in the game (Guardian Sphere, Tower of Stone, blah blah blah).  It's hard for a guardian to go down, especially with a healer worth their salt.</p><p>You have FAR from the least threat (how many abilities do you have that generate threat? If it's more than 4, not counting rescue and sneering assault, then you're ahead of the curve)</p><p>DPS is a matter of gear, remember that warrior types (Guardians and Berserkers) do the VAST majority of their damage via auto attack at the high end, gear for that.</p><p>And as far as utility?  Groupwide Moderate.  Yesplz.</p><p>If you want the most underpowered fighters?  Monks, followed by bruisers, after that it gets blurry very fast.</p></blockquote><p>Honestly, I think monks and bruisers are slightly ahead of guards.  They are still miles behind the rest though.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>I'm a little offended that the OP forgot that brawlers existed when he named this thread.</p>

[Edminime]

<p>He should of named it ( I suck at playing my class I need god mod back ) KOS ring a bell.</p>

[Senrow]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on this topic.</p><p><ul><li>least DPS</li><li>least TPS</li><li>least hate building abilities</li><li>no utilities to speak of</li></ul><div>Why are they on the bottom of most of ability categories?</div></p></blockquote><p>Cause guardians are dragons's punching bags. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Aull]

<p>Here are my assumptions.</p><p>An example would be zerkers getting adrenaline at 80. This is probably one of the best temp damage reductions that any fighter could ever get. In doing so it moved zerkers ahead defensively and that is an area that a zerker should not really be known for. They got it anyway. On the flip side guards didn't receive any offensive abilities which didn't move them ahead but kept them to their so called stronger defensive identity.</p><p>Basically any time a fighter that was/is known to be more offensive gets defensive abilities at no cost to offense is where the dispairity begins.</p><p>This is were zerkers and crusaders have grown when compairing them to the guard.</p><p>There is nothing wrong with guards getting more defensive tools. However none of that survival means a hoot if 90% of the time the mob is not hitting the guard.</p><p>It would be like giving crusaders and zerkers all this wonderful offensive potential yet when fighting they can't hit the mob 90% of the time. Go figure what would happen in that scenario.</p><p>My suggestion would be that if zerkers and crusaders are going to be more offensively inclined to stop giving them any defensive abilities that rival what the guardian has.</p><p>Hate needs to be stronger. If dps continues to be the best way for tanks to get aggro then the guardian will always loose. If zerkers and crusaders want to tank offensively to hold aggro then so be it. On the flip side if guradians are tanking in defensive then they should have every bit the success with aggro as would a zerker/crusader in offensive.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on this topic.</p><ul><li>least DPS</li><li>least TPS</li><li>least hate building abilities</li><li>no utilities to speak of</li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">worst at PvP</span></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">worst solo</span></li><li><span style="color: #ff0000;">least survivability in most content</span></li></ul><div>Why are they on the bottom of most of ability categories?</div></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You forgot some.</span></p><p>Also, I think it's kinda funny fighters have more locked threads than any other archtype forum.</p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here are my assumptions.</p><p>An example would be zerkers getting adrenaline at 80. This is probably one of the best temp damage reductions that any fighter could ever get. In doing so it moved zerkers ahead defensively and that is an area that a zerker should not really be known for. They got it anyway. On the flip side guards didn't receive any offensive abilities which didn't move them ahead but kept them to their so called stronger defensive identity.</p><p>Basically any time a fighter that was/is known to be more offensive gets defensive abilities at no cost to offense is where the dispairity begins.</p><p>This is were zerkers and crusaders have grown when compairing them to the guard.</p><p>There is nothing wrong with guards getting more defensive tools. However none of that survival means a hoot if 90% of the time the mob is not hitting the guard.</p><p>It would be like giving crusaders and zerkers all this wonderful offensive potential yet when fighting they can't hit the mob 90% of the time. Go figure what would happen in that scenario.</p><p>My suggestion would be that if zerkers and crusaders are going to be more offensively inclined to stop giving them any defensive abilities that rival what the guardian has.</p><p>Hate needs to be stronger. If dps continues to be the best way for tanks to get aggro then the guardian will always loose. If zerkers and crusaders want to tank offensively to hold aggro then so be it. On the flip side if guradians are tanking in defensive then they should have every bit the success with aggro as would a zerker/crusader in offensive.</p></blockquote><p>There are no assumptions there. Just statements and opinions. </p><p>Berserkers were total crap when they got Adrenaline. Even after they were nowhere near Guardians. Hence the flocking to betray to Guardian in RoK, much like the opposite today. </p><p>Then in TSO, in a nutshell, everyone got every major ability that everyone else had. Stoneskin? Take it. Aggro lock? Here. Death save? Knock yourself out. So hey! We're all vanilla! (Except leather wearers) But .. oh by the way ... we're replacing your Guardian Mythical with this noodle. Have a nice day. </p><p>Then in SF the leather wearers got better, and not just because they all get the ridiculous amount of fighter leather that raiders don't use so anyone with a small amount of plat plat is wearing raid gear. Better in general.</p><p>I don't disagree with your suggestions. </p><p>I do think, though, that if I  had the same player with all 6 Fighter classes and I was putting together an heroic instance run, which I chose would depend on gear. If all were equally raid geared I'd take the SK first. If all were equally crap geared, I'd take the Guardian in a heartbeat. That's just my opinion based on running instances in PUGs on my Defiler and Troub and Necro. I've never seen a Guardian have aggro issues, but I have had SK's that are harder to heal. I can only base my opinion on my experiences, not saying they are the end all be all. </p><p>EDIT: And let me just add before I'm blasted that despite being annoyed to all get out by the complaining, I believe that Guardians are the Fighter most in need of help. I believe they should distinguish themselves with defense and they do not right now. I believe they should have greater TPS in AE/AOE situations. I don't think certain people would be lending their voices - voices typically of reason - to this argument if they were not in need of those things. How extensive that disparity is though, and at what levels it exists - on that topic there is some room for discussion. </p>

[Prestissimo]

<p>Threat should be the end all method for generating the most hate. DPS makes the mob die faster. If dps = threat, dps will be taken, at which point, you'll need the tank to be dpsing > the hate scout/mage/healer generate.</p><p>If a fighter can bring the pain (so that soloing isn't an auto attack and come back in 5 minutes chore) and so that a fighter can do something constructive durring off tanking without causing agro problems, but can't overpower the hate that threat generates, all of a sudden fighter's can co-mingle and higher hate will no longer mean MoAr Dp$!!1.</p><p>IMO, that is the most logical and reasonable solution; threat needs to have a more significant piece of the pie when it comes to the maximum possible hate a fighter can generate.</p>

[steelbadger]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do think, though, that if I  had the same player with all 6 Fighter classes and I was putting together an heroic instance run, which I chose would depend on gear. If all were equally raid geared I'd take the SK first. If all were equally crap geared, I'd take the Guardian in a heartbeat. That's just my opinion based on running instances in PUGs on my Defiler and Troub and Necro. I've never seen a Guardian have aggro issues, but I have had SK's that are harder to heal. I can only base my opinion on my experiences, not saying they are the end all be all. </p></blockquote><p>Silly choice.  If all the fighters are in crap gear then I'd pick Pally first, Zerk second.  Guardians have no meaningful survivability tools vs heroic encounters.  ToS is a pointless waste of time when you're being hit 3 times a second for 500 dmg (grouped mobs ftw).</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>steelbadger wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do think, though, that if I  had the same player with all 6 Fighter classes and I was putting together an heroic instance run, which I chose would depend on gear. If all were equally raid geared I'd take the SK first. If all were equally crap geared, I'd take the Guardian in a heartbeat. That's just my opinion based on running instances in PUGs on my Defiler and Troub and Necro. I've never seen a Guardian have aggro issues, but I have had SK's that are harder to heal. I can only base my opinion on my experiences, not saying they are the end all be all. </p></blockquote><p>Silly choice.  If all the fighters are in crap gear then I'd pick Pally first, Zerk second.  <strong><span style="color: #00ff00; font-size: small;">Guardians have no meaningful survivability tools vs heroic encounters</span></strong>.  ToS is a pointless waste of time when you're being hit 3 times a second for 500 dmg (grouped mobs ftw).</p></blockquote><p>This is where it all goes to hades for the guard. Guard abilities have the best use in a raid scenario. At the heroic lvl none of it is beneficial for the guard. Crusaders and zerker abilities shine in both area's of play and with great results.</p>

[Gilasil]

<p>"Why is the guardian glass so under powered compared to the other three?"</p><p>Three?  THREE?</p><p>Excuse me but there are FIVE other fighter classes besides Guardian.</p><p>Presumably the op figures that brawlers are in such bad shape that they don't count as tanks.</p><p>In which case guardian is actually near the middle.</p><p>I'm sorry but I just couldn't resist.  Brawlers are so often discounted that it gets a bit wearing at times.</p>

[Senrow]

<p>Brawlers can make it to the top of raid dps parse.</p>

[Russel]

<p>We can wow thats news to me. I mean our dps is good for a tank but the top! Whats the secret to beating the Necros and wizards,and assasins and such?</p>

[Senrow]

<p>I have no clue but I was in a raid and there was a momnk who got top parse. even w/o his mythic.</p><p>They ARE a good class to have.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do think, though, that if I  had the same player with all 6 Fighter classes and I was putting together an heroic instance run, which I chose would depend on gear. If all were equally raid geared I'd take the SK first. If all were equally crap geared, I'd take the Guardian in a heartbeat. That's just my opinion based on running instances in PUGs on my Defiler and Troub and Necro. I've never seen a Guardian have aggro issues, but I have had SK's that are harder to heal. I can only base my opinion on my experiences, not saying they are the end all be all. </p><p>EDIT: And let me just add before I'm blasted that despite being annoyed to all get out by the complaining, I believe that Guardians are the Fighter most in need of help. I believe they should distinguish themselves with defense and they do not right now. I believe they should have greater TPS in AE/AOE situations. I don't think certain people would be lending their voices - voices typically of reason - to this argument if they were not in need of those things. How extensive that disparity is though, and at what levels it exists - on that topic there is some room for discussion. </p></blockquote><p>If everybody has crap gear in a Heroic instance the SK would FAR FAR FAR outshine the Guardian. They can AoE lifetap, have multiple triggers of Bloodletter, Can maintain better agro, can provide better dps.. It's not even beginning to be funny how much a SK would outshine the Guardian.</p><p>The fighters only approach balance the higher end their gear gets. SK's still off massive amount more DPS, TPS and have equal survivability so even at the top end they are not balanced, just closer so raids aren't gimped by the Guardians presence.</p>

[Garnaf]

<p>The "Multiple Triggers of Bloodletter" is a Raid focus.  We need a Red Adornment for that.  Since my definition of "crap gear" includes nothing fabled and very little legendary.  No multi-bloodletter.</p><p>Just to clarify that.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Shrin@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We can wow thats news to me. I mean our dps is good for a tank but the top! Whats the secret to beating the Necros and wizards,and assasins and such?</p></blockquote><p>The necros, wizards, and assassins must be horrible. 2nd they are horrible and it is a pick up raid. 3rd they are grouped improperly. The list could go on.</p><p>In all reality all gear, skill, and buffs being equal no brawler should be coming close to those classes.</p>

[Senrow]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shrin@Permafrost wrote:</cite></p><p>The necros, wizards, and assassins must be horrible. 2nd they are horrible and it is a pick up raid. 3rd they are grouped improperly. The list could go on.</p><p>In all reality all gear, skill, and buffs being equal no brawler should be coming close to those classes.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah it was a pickup raid. haha, that is all i join these days.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Obadiah]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If everybody has crap gear in a Heroic instance the SK would FAR FAR FAR outshine the Guardian. They can AoE lifetap, <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">have multiple triggers of Bloodletter, </span>Can maintain better agro, can provide better dps.. It's not even beginning to be funny how much a SK would outshine the Guardian.</p></blockquote><p>Incorrect portion crossed out. I have not found this to be true at all - either when healing or acting as DPS. In my experience maintaining aggro has been trivial for all fighters - or at least they made it look that way. Guardians - and it's entirely possible it's just the ones I've grouped with but I can only go on my own experiences - have been noticably easier as a healer. Not like "one is [Removed for Content], one is god" easier, but noticeable. DPS has been comparabe. In fact I'm always somewhat surprised given what I read out here that the SKs in particular aren't putting out more. Maybe they are holding back so as not to be nerfed. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Gilasil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>"Why is the guardian glass so under powered compared to the other three?"</p><p>Three?  THREE?</p><p>Excuse me but there are FIVE other fighter classes besides Guardian.</p><p>Presumably the op figures that brawlers are in such bad shape that they don't count as tanks.</p><p>In which case guardian is actually near the middle.</p><p>I'm sorry but I just couldn't resist.  Brawlers are so often discounted that it gets a bit wearing at times.</p></blockquote><p>Three as in there are only 4 plate tank classes...</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If everybody has crap gear in a Heroic instance the SK would FAR FAR FAR outshine the Guardian. They can AoE lifetap, <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">have multiple triggers of Bloodletter, </span>Can maintain better agro, can provide better dps.. It's not even beginning to be funny how much a SK would outshine the Guardian.</p></blockquote><p>Incorrect portion crossed out. I have not found this to be true at all - either when healing or acting as DPS. In my experience maintaining aggro has been trivial for all fighters - or at least they made it look that way. Guardians - and it's entirely possible it's just the ones I've grouped with but I can only go on my own experiences - have been noticably easier as a healer. Not like "one is [Removed for Content], one is god" easier, but noticeable. DPS has been comparabe. In fact I'm always somewhat surprised given what I read out here that the SKs in particular aren't putting out more. Maybe they are holding back so as not to be nerfed. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Or peoples perception on things are an entire expansion behind and completely exaggerated.....like usual.</p><p>Guard hate bumped up and a bit more group utility in the form of survivability tools for those around them and Guards will be exactly where they should be with the other 3 plate tanks.  As for Brawlers I honestly look at them as a completely different type of class and don't have a clue.  I know that our Bruiser rocks, can DPS well, can tank just about anything, and improves the survivability of the MT significantly....in my experience I don't find them lacking at all.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guard <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">hate</span> <em>dps</em> bumped up <em>significantly</em> and a bit more group utility in the form of survivability tools for those around them and Guards will be exactly where they should be with the other 3 plate tanks.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree that guardians need to be buffed, but if you want to buff them to be as desirable as a zerker or crusader, it's gonna take more than a hate bump and some form of defensive utility.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or peoples perception on things are an entire expansion behind and completely exaggerated.....like usual.</p><p>Guard hate bumped up and a bit more group utility in the form of survivability tools for those around them and Guards will be exactly where they should be with the other 3 plate tanks.  As for Brawlers I honestly look at them as a completely different type of class and don't have a clue.  I know that our Bruiser rocks, can DPS well, can tank just about anything, and improves the survivability of the MT significantly....in my experience I don't find them lacking at all.</p></blockquote><p>SK's out DPS, out TPS and have equal survivability to Guardians and your 'willing' to give me a shinny button to push that makes fireworks go off when I tank? I would hope you know how much bull crap that is but I know you don't. Let e'splain to you. I want to be balanced with you. I want to be just as powerful as you. I want to be equal to you. I don't give a crap if you like it. My money that I pay every month is just as eaual to yours and I deserve the same benefit you have in the game.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guard <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">hate</span> <em>dps</em> bumped up <em>significantly</em> and a bit more group utility in the form of survivability tools for those around them and Guards will be exactly where they should be with the other 3 plate tanks.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree that guardians need to be buffed, but if you want to buff them to be as desirable as a zerker or crusader, it's gonna take more than a hate bump and some form of defensive utility.</p></blockquote><p>Well player base and producers seem to disagree with you.  In their last little video thing they said they are bringing up the classes that are not as enjoyable to play to the level the other ones are.  Guards and a couple other classes seem to be the ones they are talking about.</p><p>Now instead of just giving them DPS which will basically make the Guard a Zerker there are better ways that I hope the Dev team take to make sure Guards retain their identity while still making them much more enjoyable to play.  More agro alleviates a lot of it.  Really people don't care if it takes 5 minutes longer to do a zone as long as the class they are playing doesn't have to hold back in any way....in other words DPS classes are greedy and it is the opposite of EQ1.</p><p>Next adjust some of the Guard abilities or change a couple to become more of an active group survivability tool.  Done right would mean that having a Guard is less stress on a healer and allows them to go fully offensive as well most of the time.  The lack of Guard DPS is made up in DPS from the utility and healers being able to focus more on offense.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or peoples perception on things are an entire expansion behind and completely exaggerated.....like usual.</p><p>Guard hate bumped up and a bit more group utility in the form of survivability tools for those around them and Guards will be exactly where they should be with the other 3 plate tanks.  As for Brawlers I honestly look at them as a completely different type of class and don't have a clue.  I know that our Bruiser rocks, can DPS well, can tank just about anything, and improves the survivability of the MT significantly....in my experience I don't find them lacking at all.</p></blockquote><p>SK's out DPS, out TPS and have equal survivability to Guardians and your 'willing' to give me a shinny button to push that makes fireworks go off when I tank? I would hope you know how much bull crap that is but I know you don't. Let e'splain to you. I want to be balanced with you. I want to be just as powerful as you. I want to be equal to you. I don't give a crap if you like it. My money that I pay every month is just as eaual to yours and I deserve the same benefit you have in the game.</p></blockquote><p>No your goal seems to be making Guards the tank of choice for every single situation.  In other words, you are trying to return things to the RoK era which the 5 other tanks definitely don't want to see ever again.</p><p>I am sorry your mind can't seem to think outside of the box in how Guards can be made better without completely destroying their identity as a class.  My advice to you is leave the thinking to those much better suited at it and in the mean-time stop flooding the forums with worthless posts full of your QQ that add nothing at all to help out the very class that you play.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Or peoples perception on things are an entire expansion behind and completely exaggerated.....like usual.</p><p>Guard hate bumped up and a bit more group utility in the form of survivability tools for those around them and Guards will be exactly where they should be with the other 3 plate tanks.  As for Brawlers I honestly look at them as a completely different type of class and don't have a clue.  I know that our Bruiser rocks, can DPS well, can tank just about anything, and improves the survivability of the MT significantly....in my experience I don't find them lacking at all.</p></blockquote><p>SK's out DPS, out TPS and have equal survivability to Guardians and your 'willing' to give me a shinny button to push that makes fireworks go off when I tank? I would hope you know how much bull crap that is but I know you don't. Let e'splain to you. I want to be balanced with you. I want to be just as powerful as you. I want to be equal to you. I don't give a crap if you like it. My money that I pay every month is just as eaual to yours and I deserve the same benefit you have in the game.</p></blockquote><p>No your goal seems to be making Guards the tank of choice for every single situation.  In other words, you are trying to return things to the RoK era which the 5 other tanks definitely don't want to see ever again.</p><p>I am sorry your mind can't seem to think outside of the box in how Guards can be made better without completely destroying their identity as a class.  My advice to you is leave the thinking to those much better suited at it and in the mean-time stop flooding the forums with worthless posts full of your QQ that add nothing at all to help out the very class that you play.</p></blockquote><p>No. I wanted to be a pure defensive tank that works hard to allow others to excell at their job. I chose that in EQ2 beta. I choose that in EQ2 and I  have played the same charachter since then. That is not possible in this game and you come here and throw bones all over. Sorry, not going to accept that. Either make the Guardian what it is suppose to be or make me equal and balanced.</p><p>People EXPECT to go into a zone and pull whole rooms. They complain when you don't and they complain when you can't keep agro off that. The current state of Crusaders have brough that to it's current state and Guardians can't not compete with that. Fix one or the other. It's simple. You not accepting that, you being a SK, and you being so adamant on not giving Guardins specific items that YOU HAVE is what makes people dislike your involvement in these discussions.</p>

[Edminime]

<p>What guardian's need is to go over there aa's and learn to play there class.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What guardian's need is to go over there aa's and learn to play there class.</p></blockquote><p>I know right! Nothing is wrong with guards nothing at all.</p>

[Edminime]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What guardian's need is to go over there aa's and learn to play there class.</p></blockquote><p>I know right! Nothing is wrong with guards nothing at all.</p></blockquote><p> Now your learning, keep it up and you will not need to be overpowered or god mod to play you toon like you did the first 4 yr.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>That doesn't really explain why after 2 weeks I can do more with a zerker in horrible gear (similar to yours) and fewer AAs, than I can with my guardian I played for years and know better than any other class in the game. Give me your paladin and I will do better on my first dungeon crawl than I would with my guardian. Well... that's probably exaggerating a bit tbh.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What guardian's need is to go over there aa's and learn to play there class.</p></blockquote><p>I know right! Nothing is wrong with guards nothing at all.</p></blockquote><p> Now your learning, keep it up and you will not need to be overpowered or god mod to play you toon like you did the first 4 yr.</p></blockquote><p>I know, I have no idea what just about EVERY guardian is complaining about. I mean after all they do have more survivability than every other tank for god sakes. They all just need to l2p their class, they shouldn't need an easy button to do their job like the other tanks do after all they are frakken guardians!</p>

[Edminime]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That doesn't really explain why after 2 weeks I can do more with a zerker in horrible gear (similar to yours) and fewer AAs, than I can with my guardian I played for years and know better than any other class in the game. Give me your paladin and I will do better on my first dungeon crawl than I would with my guardian. Well... that's probably exaggerating a bit tbh.</p></blockquote><p>A little exaggerated yes to play a tank class in this game is not hard to learn. And to get you up to date I played a guardian as an alt before I move to Najena. I liked OT raid more then being MT, And had a beta buffed one in SF. A paladian will do a little better in a pug if there is only one high dps in the group. Now in similar gear as my paladin let's go raid mt Oxdaxius. A guardian is going to do alot better with all there trmp buffs.</p>

[Kota]

pally >> guard. don't lie. i've played a paladin and i think it's way easier than my zerk. amends has no equal. if you think survivability is even a factor you're dead wrong. i haven't heard someone say 'we can't do this w/o a guardian' since the lvl cap was 50. i've tanked every easy mode encounter on my zerk w/o using adrenaline at all. if you think that as a crusader you don't have a serious advantage over guardians, you are severely convoluted.

[Edminime]

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>pally >> guard. don't lie. i've played a paladin and i think it's way easier than my zerk. amends has no equal. if you think survivability is even a factor you're dead wrong. i haven't heard someone say 'we can't do this w/o a guardian' since the lvl cap was 50. i've tanked every easy mode encounter on my zerk w/o using adrenaline at all. if you think that as a crusader you don't have a serious advantage over guardians, you are severely convoluted.</blockquote><p>So your saying as a guardian you can not do dungeon crawl rofl look who's lieing. And with temp buffs guard survivability >>> then all tank in raids. See I can do that too.</p>

[spudsmckenzie2]

<p>edminime...take a peek into the guardian forums and tell me that all those people are complaining for no reason. there is a problem with guards they are not performing on par with the rest of its plate counterparts. sony needs to take some of the survivabilty from crusaders (moreso from sk's) and leave their dps where it is. i shouldnt be seeing other crusaders in raid that are matching my mitigation and avoidance fiqures especially when im up there between 13-14k mit and like 77% avoidance. its like they are getting their cake and eating it too.</p>

[Hikinami]

<p>Guards need some more hate. Nerfing other classes isn't the answer though. Sadly at this point the best thing will be to make all plate tanks equal. Yeah it's vanillia but whatever.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>They need to restore guardians to being clearly the most defensive tank again.</p>

[RAYVEN2]

<p>The majority of guilds still use a guardian MT for raids.  If guardians were so [Removed for Content] compared to other tanks then raid guilds which are all about max/min would never use them for MT.  I'm in one of the best raid guilds on AB and we still use a guardian as a MT.  We just took out Tox on hard and guess what class was tanking Tox?  We took out Theer and guess what class was tanking him?  We took out Waansu and guess what class was tanking him... a guardian.  If you have less than 250 AA and crappy gear you have no business coming here and complaining that guardians are weaker than the other 5 tanks.  Guardians are just fine and are still the best raid MT.  The tanks are balanced in the high end part of this game and guardians stack up just fine.  </p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The majority of guilds still use a guardian MT for raids.</p></blockquote><p>This kind of statement always makes me chuckle.  There's at least 333 guilds that have posted raid results on the guildprogress.com website for the current expansion, nearly 1000 if you look at the previous two expansions.  No doubt there are more raiding guilds that are not listed.  Can you honestly and accurately tell us which class "the majority" of those guilds use for MT?  Nope.  But it certainly makes you sound smart, and it supports your argument nicely.</p>

[RAYVEN2]

<p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The majority of guilds still use a guardian MT for raids.</p></blockquote><p>This kind of statement always makes me chuckle.  There's at least 333 guilds that have posted raid results on the guildprogress.com website for the current expansion, nearly 1000 if you look at the previous two expansions.  No doubt there are more raiding guilds that are not listed.  Can you honestly and accurately tell us which class "the majority" of those guilds use for MT?  Nope.  But it certainly makes you sound smart, and it supports your argument nicely.</p></blockquote><p>Well i can talk for the top 5 on AB.  Guess what tank they use?  I know cause we are always in competition for guild progression.  Why dont you all stop complaining and start playing the game cause guilds are still using you all for the most important spot. </p><p>I also love how you ignored everything else I said.  Would a max/min guild thats killing the hard mode encounters want to use a Guardian if they suck compared to the other 5 tanks?  Waansu - tanked by a guardian, Tox - tanked by a guardian, Theer - tanked by a guardian and so on.  All of TSO -flawless TSO - tanked by a guardian.  Yeah I guess they suck.... No offence and no I am not trying to be insulting so please just hear me out.  Get to 250 AA, get all your T9 T2 fabled gear and then compare yourself with the other tanks.  I bet you will feel different.    </p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well i can talk for the top 5 on AB.  Guess what tank they use?  I know cause we are always in competition for guild progression.  Why dont you all stop complaining and start playing the game cause guilds are still using you all for the most important spot. </p></blockquote><p>And the top 5 guilds on AB had the entire game nearly beaten by March.  I'll tell you a little secret.  Guilds at the top-top end can handle a huge chunk of the raid content with a wizard tanking.  Guard, Paladin, Monk -- doesn't matter which fighters you use at that point.  Which fighters the top 5 guilds on AB or any server use means jack all to the 328 other guilds, and most especially to the guilds that are mid-tier and struggling to make some progress.  Unlike the top end, those guilds need to wring out every scrap of the tanks' abilities to get through the next mob.  What tanks are they using?  And <span style="text-decoration: underline;">should</span> they be using guardians?</p>

[RAYVEN2]

<p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well i can talk for the top 5 on AB.  Guess what tank they use?  I know cause we are always in competition for guild progression.  Why dont you all stop complaining and start playing the game cause guilds are still using you all for the most important spot. </p></blockquote><p>And the top 5 guilds on AB had the entire game nearly beaten by March.  I'll tell you a little secret.  Guilds at the top-top end can handle a huge chunk of the raid content with a wizard tanking.  Guard, Paladin, Monk -- doesn't matter which fighters you use at that point.  Which fighters the top 5 guilds on AB or any server use means jack all to the 328 other guilds, and most especially to the guilds that are mid-tier and struggling to make some progress.  Unlike the top end, those guilds need to wring out every scrap of the tanks' abilities to get through the next mob.  What tanks are they using?  And <span style="text-decoration: underline;">should</span> they be using guardians?</p></blockquote><p>They would be dumb if they didnt use a Guardian.  More Hp, more mitigation, more avoidance, easiest tank to heal makes for the best tank for raid content.  If you are a new guild struggling with raid content you would not want an under geared crusader tanking! </p>

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

<p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They would be dumb if they didnt use a Guardian.  More Hp, more mitigation, more avoidance, easiest tank to heal makes for the best tank for raid content.  If you are a new guild struggling with raid content you would not want an under geared crusader tanking! </p></blockquote><p>Who said anything about undergeared crusaders?  What about a crusader that was geared similarly to the guardian?  Would that still be a dumb choice?</p>

[RAYVEN2]

<p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They would be dumb if they didnt use a Guardian.  More Hp, more mitigation, more avoidance, easiest tank to heal makes for the best tank for raid content.  If you are a new guild struggling with raid content you would not want an under geared crusader tanking! </p></blockquote><p>Who said anything about undergeared crusaders?  What about a crusader that was geared similarly to the guardian?  Would that still be a dumb choice?</p></blockquote><p>Yes, because the roles are different.  You want the crusader picking up adds not MT-ing the mob.  Tons of encounters require this.  You're best off having a crusader off tank because of all the AE hate generating abilities a crusader has.  Holy ground for one and a bunch of AEs.  Crusaders are better at picking up adds than just about anyone else.  You cant go wrong when you use a class for what its built for.  </p><p>Also, a guardian in similar gear would have more HP, more mitigation and more avoidance than the crusader. </p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They would be dumb if they didnt use a Guardian.  More Hp, more mitigation, more avoidance, easiest tank to heal makes for the best tank for raid content.  If you are a new guild struggling with raid content you would not want an under geared crusader tanking! </p></blockquote><p>Who said anything about undergeared crusaders?  What about a crusader that was geared similarly to the guardian?  Would that still be a dumb choice?</p></blockquote><p>Yes, because the roles are different.  You want the crusader picking up adds not MT-ing the mob.  Tons of encounters require this.  You're best off having a crusader off tank because of all the AE hate generating abilities a crusader has.  Holy ground for one and a bunch of AEs.  Crusaders are better at picking up adds than just about anyone else.  You cant go wrong when you use a class for what its built for.  </p><p>Also, a guardian in similar gear would have more HP, more mitigation and more avoidance than the crusader. </p></blockquote><p>Assuming you have the perfect group for the guard yes. Take a way a cleric or shaman. Take a way the dirge and coercer then the crusader becomes the superior MT because of their utilities. With the right make up any fighter can tank as long as they have proper resists. Once you don't have the perfect MT group the guard is no longer the best choice. </p><p>Also a guard will be DW dropping their "superior" survivability. You try to Bering an argument to the board that has been disproved over and over. Please come back when you come up with something new.</p>

[Edminime]

<p><cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>edminime...take a peek into the guardian forums and tell me that all those people are complaining for no reason. there is a problem with guards they are not performing on par with the rest of its plate counterparts. sony needs to take some of the survivabilty from crusaders (moreso from sk's) and leave their dps where it is. i shouldnt be seeing other crusaders in raid that are matching my mitigation and avoidance fiqures especially when im up there between 13-14k mit and like 77% avoidance. its like they are getting their cake and eating it too.</p></blockquote><p>You ask for an answer I'll give you one, All the guardian's called RoK balanced and performing on par (god mod ring a bell).I see you didn't add temp buffs in there for survivabilty. I know ToS is useless, but then we asked for TS to be change to 2 min recast 2 triggers guards posted it would be way OP rofl.</p>

[Edminime]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They need to restore guardians to being clearly the most defensive tank again.</p></blockquote><p>Come on you can say it ( I wont god mod agian).</p>

[Edminime]

<p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The majority of guilds still use a guardian MT for raids.</p></blockquote><p>This kind of statement always makes me chuckle.   raid guilds which are all about max/min , nearly 1000 if you look at the previous two expansions.  No doubt there are more raiding guilds that are not listed.  Can you honestly and accurately tell us which class "the majority" of those guilds use for MT?  Nope.  But it certainly makes you sound smart, and it supports your argument nicely.</p></blockquote><p>I see you missed some thing so I'll point it out ( raid guilds which are all about max/min).There's at least 333 guilds that have posted raid results on the guildprogress.com website for the current expansion.  No doubt there are more raiding guilds that are not listed. So all this guilds posting on guildprogess.com.are max/min raiding guilds. See I can play this game too.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>edminime...take a peek into the guardian forums and tell me that all those people are complaining for no reason. there is a problem with guards they are not performing on par with the rest of its plate counterparts. sony needs to take some of the survivabilty from crusaders (moreso from sk's) and leave their dps where it is. i shouldnt be seeing other crusaders in raid that are matching my mitigation and avoidance fiqures especially when im up there between 13-14k mit and like 77% avoidance. its like they are getting their cake and eating it too.</p></blockquote><p>You ask for an answer I'll give you one, All the guardian's called RoK balanced and performing on par (god mod ring a bell).I see you didn't add temp buffs in there for survivabilty. I know ToS is useless, but then we asked for TS to be change to 2 min recast 2 triggers guards posted it would be way OP rofl.</p></blockquote><p>I agree and they fixed the guard because they where broke. Not as broke as crusaders are now but broke none the lest. It is time they fix the crusader class. Fix Crusaders in 2010!</p>

[Edminime]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They would be dumb if they didnt use a Guardian.  More Hp, more mitigation, more avoidance, easiest tank to heal makes for the best tank for raid content.  If you are a new guild struggling with raid content you would not want an under geared crusader tanking! </p></blockquote><p>Who said anything about undergeared crusaders?  What about a crusader that was geared similarly to the guardian?  Would that still be a dumb choice?</p></blockquote><p>Yes, because the roles are different.  You want the crusader picking up adds not MT-ing the mob.  Tons of encounters require this.  You're best off having a crusader off tank because of all the AE hate generating abilities a crusader has.  Holy ground for one and a bunch of AEs.  Crusaders are better at picking up adds than just about anyone else.  You cant go wrong when you use a class for what its built for.  </p><p>Also, a guardian in similar gear would have more HP, more mitigation and more avoidance than the crusader. </p></blockquote><p>Assuming you have the perfect group for the guard yes. Take a way a cleric or shaman. Take a way the dirge and coercer then the crusader becomes the superior MT because of their utilities. With the right make up any fighter can tank as long as they have proper resists. Once you don't have the perfect MT group the guard is no longer the best choice. </p><p>Also a guard will be DW dropping their "superior" survivability. You try to Bering an argument to the board that has been disproved over and over. Please come back when you come up with something new.</p></blockquote><p>So pls tell what max/ min raiding guilds run with out thoughs classes. You should learn to us macros that will solve you superior survivability. Now you learned more about playing your class. All the other tank classes us them.</p>

[Edminime]

<p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>edminime...take a peek into the guardian forums and tell me that all those people are complaining for no reason. there is a problem with guards they are not performing on par with the rest of its plate counterparts. sony needs to take some of the survivabilty from crusaders (moreso from sk's) and leave their dps where it is. i shouldnt be seeing other crusaders in raid that are matching my mitigation and avoidance fiqures especially when im up there between 13-14k mit and like 77% avoidance. its like they are getting their cake and eating it too.</p></blockquote><p>You ask for an answer I'll give you one, All the guardian's called RoK balanced and performing on par (god mod ring a bell).I see you didn't add temp buffs in there for survivabilty. I know ToS is useless, but then we asked for TS to be change to 2 min recast 2 triggers guards posted it would be way OP rofl.</p></blockquote><p>I agree and they fixed the guard because they where broke. Not as broke as crusaders are now but broke none the lest. It is time they fix the crusader class. Fix Crusaders in 2010!</p></blockquote><p>No they balanced the other 3 plate tanks to guardian's, so guard losted there god mod and wont it back lol.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The majority of guilds still use a guardian MT for raids.  If guardians were so [Removed for Content] compared to other tanks then raid guilds which are all about max/min would never use them for MT.  I'm in one of the best raid guilds on AB and we still use a guardian as a MT.  We just took out Tox on hard and guess what class was tanking Tox?  We took out Theer and guess what class was tanking him?  We took out Waansu and guess what class was tanking him... a guardian.  If you have less than 250 AA and crappy gear you have no business coming here and complaining that guardians are weaker than the other 5 tanks.  Guardians are just fine and are still the best raid MT.  The tanks are balanced in the high end part of this game and guardians stack up just fine.  </p></blockquote><p>So, what you are saying is while main tanking raid content with 250AA and the best gear in the game, guardians do just fine. Gratz on figuring out what everyone here has known for months, and completely ignoring the imbalance. People running heroic/solo/pvp content with less than 250AA equipped in what you would consider garbage gear are exactly the ones experiencing a huge imbalance. You ignore the fact you could yank the guard out of any of those guilds on AB, drop a paladin in his place, and they would still be killing the same crap. But oh wait... the pally is also beast at off-tanking waves of adds, dpsing, soloing, pvp, and tanking heroic content... and doesn't need the best gear in the game and the perfect group setup to do it.</p><p>Besides, half those guards probably log out after the raid is over to do some BGs and instances with their shadowknight/zerker <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">mains</span> <em>"alts"</em>.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They need to restore guardians to being clearly the most defensive tank again.</p></blockquote><p>Come on you can say it ( I wont god mod agian).</p></blockquote><p>Much like with all your posts, I have no idea what you are talking about. It's like you're Brownie's slow cousin or something.</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, what you are saying is while main tanking raid content with 250AA and the best gear in the game, guardians do just fine. Gratz on figuring out what everyone here has known for months, and completely ignoring the imbalance. People running heroic/solo/pvp content with less than 250AA equipped in what you would consider garbage gear are exactly the ones experiencing a huge imbalance. You ignore the fact you could yank the guard out of any of those guilds on AB, drop a paladin in his place, and they would still be killing the same crap. But oh wait... the pally is also beast at off-tanking waves of adds, dpsing, soloing, pvp, and tanking heroic content... and doesn't need the best gear in the game and the perfect group setup to do it.</p><p>Besides, half those guards probably log out after the raid is over to do some BGs and instances with their shadowknight/zerker <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">mains</span> <em>"alts"</em>.</p></blockquote><p>I think this here sums it all up. I have an sk and all I can say is that if any other sk or crusader believes that crusaders can be "off-tanking waves of adds, dpsing, soloing, pvp, and tanking heroic content... and doesn't need the best gear in the game and the perfect group setup to do it" is ok but guards shouldn't be. Well those crusaders who do need to have a wake up call.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>spudsmckenzie2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>edminime...take a peek into the guardian forums and tell me that all those people are complaining for no reason. there is a problem with guards they are not performing on par with the rest of its plate counterparts. sony needs to take some of the survivabilty from crusaders (moreso from sk's) and leave their dps where it is. i shouldnt be seeing other crusaders in raid that are matching my mitigation and avoidance fiqures especially when im up there between 13-14k mit and like 77% avoidance. its like they are getting their cake and eating it too.</p></blockquote><p>You ask for an answer I'll give you one, All the guardian's called RoK balanced and performing on par (god mod ring a bell).I see you didn't add temp buffs in there for survivabilty. I know ToS is useless, but then we asked for TS to be change to 2 min recast 2 triggers guards posted it would be way OP rofl.</p></blockquote><p>I agree and they fixed the guard because they where broke. Not as broke as crusaders are now but broke none the lest. It is time they fix the crusader class. Fix Crusaders in 2010!</p></blockquote><p>No they balanced the other 3 plate tanks to guardian's, so guard losted there god mod and wont it back lol.</p></blockquote><p>Just like crusades will be fix and will lose their god mode (some day).</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Edminime wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Toranx@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RAYVEN2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They would be dumb if they didnt use a Guardian.  More Hp, more mitigation, more avoidance, easiest tank to heal makes for the best tank for raid content.  If you are a new guild struggling with raid content you would not want an under geared crusader tanking! </p></blockquote><p>Who said anything about undergeared crusaders?  What about a crusader that was geared similarly to the guardian?  Would that still be a dumb choice?</p></blockquote><p>Yes, because the roles are different.  You want the crusader picking up adds not MT-ing the mob.  Tons of encounters require this.  You're best off having a crusader off tank because of all the AE hate generating abilities a crusader has.  Holy ground for one and a bunch of AEs.  Crusaders are better at picking up adds than just about anyone else.  You cant go wrong when you use a class for what its built for.  </p><p>Also, a guardian in similar gear would have more HP, more mitigation and more avoidance than the crusader. </p></blockquote><p>Assuming you have the perfect group for the guard yes. Take a way a cleric or shaman. Take a way the dirge and coercer then the crusader becomes the superior MT because of their utilities. With the right make up any fighter can tank as long as they have proper resists. Once you don't have the perfect MT group the guard is no longer the best choice. </p><p>Also a guard will be DW dropping their "superior" survivability. You try to Bering an argument to the board that has been disproved over and over. Please come back when you come up with something new.</p></blockquote><p>So pls tell what max/ min raiding guilds run with out thoughs classes. You should learn to us macros that will solve you superior survivability. Now you learned more about playing your class. All the other tank classes us them.</p></blockquote><p>We are not talking about min/max raids we are talking about classes. And the only time a guard can be MT is when they have the perfect group. They can not MT like a Pally can with out a hate, Guards cant MT by simply tossing them some slack healers and a high DPS class to put their easy button on. So please come off you high crusader horse and join the rest of the world. You class is over powered by a LARGE margin. Your class will either be fixed or they will brake the other classes to match you so your class is no longer god mode.</p><p>I know you are scared they are going to fix your class so it isn't god mod and you will go back to sucking as a player but hey all good things must come to an end.</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>Currently fighters are balanced around survivability at the high end of raiding. Saying a Guardian is the best choice for MT is foolish and ignorant. Taking the tank that offers the best DPS and best TPS while having equal survivability is what you take.</p><p>That class is currently one of the two Crusaders.</p><p>Also, one of the top raiding guilds on AB has used a SK since RoK. My understanding is that they owned the Avatars and are even a roleplay raid force that doesn't use any chat programs.</p>

[Laenai]

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Also, one of the top raiding guilds on AB has used a SK since RoK. My understanding is that they owned the Avatars and are even a roleplay raid force that doesn't use any chat programs.</p></blockquote><p>Yup.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

<p>I wonder what their joust calls look like.</p><p>"Hark! Yonder comes hither and thither, the <monster name> is summoning ancient magic to smite the world with <aoe name>! Run for your souls and and covertly observe for the wave of decimation to pass!"</p>

[Wasuna]

<p>I don't make fun of what works. My understanding is that they OWNED the server in terms of raiding and did most of the first on SF expansion also.</p><p>The fact we don't want to lose sight of is that they ran a SK MT in RoK and did EVERY raid there was to do.</p>

[Landiin]

<p>If the player knew how to play the SK class they was not a bad tank. The issue was they had to have skill to do it vs the way it is now. Don't get me wrong they needed fixing to make the class more desirable and playable by a larger group of people but not broken even farther then they was by giving them god mode. Just like guards now, I can still MT, and doing instances but it is much much harder to do so and requires a team effort. The way I think it should be, however that is not how it is, so IMO guard need to be broke and raised to the level of crusaders or they need to fix the crusader class.</p>

[Nikb]

<p>Looks to me alot of guards can not play the class without being OP.</p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>Nikbik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Looks to me alot of guards can not play the class without being OP.</p></blockquote><p>Looks to me like most of them can play their classes they just want the playing field even.</p><p>Why are you posting anon for? What are you hiding? Are you hiding how you are desperately holding on the the OP state of the crusader so you have the illusion of skill?</p>

[JoarAddam]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wonder what their joust calls look like.</p><p>"Hark! Yonder comes hither and thither, the is summoning ancient magic to smite the world with ! Run for your souls and and covertly observe for the wave of decimation to pass!"</p></blockquote><p>They were all expected to know the joust timers w/o the need for calls</p>

[AziBam]

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wonder what their joust calls look like.</p><p>"Hark! Yonder comes hither and thither, the is summoning ancient magic to smite the world with ! Run for your souls and and covertly observe for the wave of decimation to pass!"</p></blockquote><p>Apparently, there are some very serious people in this thread.  I, for one, thought it was funny.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Landiin]

<p><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wonder what their joust calls look like.</p><p>"Hark! Yonder comes hither and thither, the is summoning ancient magic to smite the world with ! Run for your souls and and covertly observe for the wave of decimation to pass!"</p></blockquote><p>They were all expected to know the joust timers w/o the need for calls</p></blockquote><p>IMO every one should keep up with their own timers if its raid called or not.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Nikbik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Looks to me alot of guards can not play the class without being OP.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, thats exactly it.</p><p>I can't stand to play my class without being OP.</p><p>Glad you could help us all out with that insightful observation.</p>

[Kiara]

<p>My suggestions for having these discussions without losing your thread!  (Pay attention, this is good stuff!)</p><p>1)  Get a better title!  Guardian Class Issues/Solutions would be far far more betterer.</p><p>2)  Identify the core problems that you can all agree upon (refrain from comparing yourselves to another class).</p><p>3)  Suggest changes that could possibly be made that would make you feel better about your class (again, refrain from comparing yourselves to another class).</p><p>4)  Don't call for nerfs to other classes.</p>