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We_want_your_soul
06-24-2010, 05:16 AM
<p>A few years ago, Swashbucklers were pretty much gods of everything. Amazing pvp damage, awesome temp buffs, and Reach. The only melee class that could hit from an amazing 13 meters out with CAs!</p><p>Now our damage is barely above average, and compared to other true DPS classes and even tanks it's kind of frustrating to even play a Rogue period. Our temp buffs have been neutered hardcore, our debuffs are merely ok, and Reach line is still one of those lines that I'd use no matter what...</p><p>there is quite a few pieces of gear to give reach at this point (even for non scout classes /boggle), why is this still an issue and non-pvp usable?</p>

Edgaard
06-24-2010, 06:23 AM
<p>reach still does not work in pvp. Unless you use it then your first ca will be farther because you aren't in "pvp combat" yet. But then it's nerfed after that.</p><p>There is the miragul reach charm that is a must-get for scouts</p>

Ralpmet
06-24-2010, 06:56 AM
<p>This probably going to get me nerfed, but the enchanter reach works in pvp and not in pve. I feedbacked it a few times over the years but nothing ever came of it.</p>

We_want_your_soul
06-24-2010, 07:08 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>reach still does not work in pvp. Unless you use it then your first ca will be farther because you aren't in "pvp combat" yet. But then it's nerfed after that.</p><p>There is the miragul reach charm that is a must-get for scouts</p></blockquote><p>i'm pretty sure that's the reason the post was made, is because items like miragul charm, some of the old avatar loot, etc make it pretty obvious they either don't think reach is that big of a deal or they completely overlooked it.</p><p>give swashbucklers reach back, or take it away from everyone. that is/was one of the most defining things about swashbucklers since EoF AA trees were introduced.</p>

MaCloud1032
06-24-2010, 09:47 AM
Its because a swashy with reach and proper positionals could hit with there positionals and not be in the proper position.

Wytie
06-24-2010, 09:54 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Its because a swashy with reach and proper positionals could hit with there positionals and not be in the proper position.</blockquote><p>Hey atleast SK's get to use of their OP AA's in PVP, but forbit a swash with reach...</p><p>What about rangers? Focus Aim line should be brought back.</p><p>Everyone has toughness these classes need their abilitys back, i mean for FFS look at what everyone gets now.</p>

MaCloud1032
06-24-2010, 10:28 AM
Well my sk is only 84 barly played anymore. I have np what so ever in a massive nerf accross the board. Start with the crusaders. I also had my sk made well before they made them easy mode. I simply stated why reach was removed. You could have a swashy stand infront of you and drop there flank attacks. If they can fix those issues I have np with reach.

Wytie
06-24-2010, 11:33 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Well my sk is only 84 barly played anymore. I have np what so ever in a massive nerf accross the board. Start with the crusaders. I also had my sk made well before they made them easy mode. I simply stated why reach was removed. You could have a swashy stand infront of you and drop there flank attacks. If they can fix those issues I have np with reach.</blockquote><p>Even a nerf wouldnt be as bad a full removal.</p><p>They didnt nerf reach... They removed it. There is no grey area there.</p><p>100% removing things is dumb exp at this point where so many classes have OP abilitly from AA lines.</p><p>You simply stated "your opinion" why you "think" reach was removed.</p><p>If they can drop those flank attacks infront in pvp then they should be able to do so in pve too, so its not a pvp problem. And with lag how could you even tell anyway. Sounds like BS to me.</p>

MaCloud1032
06-24-2010, 12:13 PM
Pvp players have a larger hit box then pve mobs. At the time it was one of the extreamly few range increasers. At the time that was the fix they did for it. Instead of actualy "fixing" it the removed it. People were complaining they were dieing to melee skills before they could be meleed back.(This is before dmg nerfs and temp buff nerfs) they could shred most any class in seconds and never got in range for other classes.(Same crys you get tward rangers) At the time it was sonys fix for a very op and very broke ability(only in pvp). Like I said if they can fix the positional stuff I got np with it

Wytie
06-24-2010, 12:44 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Pvp players have a larger hit box then pve mobs. At the time it was one of the extreamly few range increasers. At the time that was the fix they did for it. Instead of actualy "fixing" it the removed it. People were complaining they were dieing to melee skills before they could be meleed back.(This is before dmg nerfs and temp buff nerfs) they could shred most any class in seconds and never got in range for other classes.(Same crys you get tward rangers) At the time it was sonys fix for a very op and very broke ability(only in pvp). Like I said if they can fix the positional stuff I got np with it </blockquote><p>Back then in the EOF days it was over the top, I agree, but now just about all classes get abilitlys that push them over the top in some kinda way.</p><p>I still dont understand where you got your info as to why it was <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">nerfed</span> removed. How do you know it had to do with players hit box?</p><p>That still doesnt make any sense, how the size of a players hit box would allow you to do positonals from the front, if thats the case dragons have some of the largest hit boxes in the game, so this would still be a pve issue too.</p><p>No dev has ever said any of this, so I ask. Where did you get this info?</p>

MaCloud1032
06-24-2010, 01:09 PM
I don't remember were I saw it. Sorry was 3 years ago. Players hit box is larger to make up for the fuge it factor. The larger hit box helps in terms of lag and the constant moving of players. Only those who suck in pvp and mobs stand in onplace as they get wailled on. As for dragons they do have there sweet spot.(Most of them are under there junk) Only reason to stand there as apose to elseware is to avoid AE, nasty frontals, and tail swipes. Iam pretty sure reach in pve also allows for some fuge factor.

Wytie
06-24-2010, 01:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I don't remember were I saw it. Sorry was 3 years ago. Players hit box is larger to make up for the fuge it factor. The larger hit box helps in terms of lag and the constant moving of players. Only those who suck in pvp and mobs stand in onplace as they get wailled on. As for dragons they do have there sweet spot.(Most of them are under there junk) Only reason to stand there as apose to elseware is to avoid AE, nasty frontals, and tail swipes. <strong>Iam pretty sure reach in pve also allows for some fuge factor. </strong></blockquote><p>I still dont seem to understand how that justifys removal from pvp but not pve. Still would be the same issue.</p><p>So you dont remember where you saw it but have no problem speaking it like its truth. I still have trouble buying that story, sorry.</p>

MaCloud1032
06-24-2010, 03:22 PM
May or may not be bs. Just remembering what I had seen/hurd on the forums. And no I can't pull up any logs from then as my house burned down during RoK. Enough crap is tossed around. Gotta take something as the truth /shrug

We_want_your_soul
06-24-2010, 04:48 PM
<p>Lol Reach was removed due to melee classes QQing all the way up halfway through RoK. Rangers have Focus Aim again (although there is no crit attatched to it anymore.. like people actually need crit these days, where the real OP factor was the obscene DPS/Haste gain), the only ability I can think of at this point that a class gets COMPLETELY TAKEN AWAY is Reach. And isn't because of "hit box", it was simply because people cried nerf for far to long.</p>

Wytie
06-24-2010, 04:51 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>May or may not be bs. Just remembering what I had seen/hurd on the forums. And no I can't pull up any logs from then as my house burned down during RoK. Enough crap is tossed around. Gotta take something as the truth /shrug </blockquote><p>I hear ya bud but I am quite the forum troll, and was a huge supporter of it being removed back in EoF.</p><p>So it amazes me to have never heard of this, but thats not to say its not true.</p><p>The main issue was always that the swash could mele kite anyone, with all the snares and fet poisons and most other classes just had no chance. Well now most everyone has access to not only items which give reach but tons of other AA abilitlys to help counter that advantag,e that they never had before, some of those abilitys being outright waaay more powerful than reach ever could have dreamed of.</p><p>So the point is.... At this point in time Reach should be brought back along with Focus Aim line for rangers because those abilitlys dont come close to some of the stuff we all got with TSO and SF AA's and thats not even counting what you can get from gear.</p>

Arcanias
06-25-2010, 11:46 AM
<p>+1 OP</p>

Felleyes
06-25-2010, 04:28 PM
<p>So, what you’re saying, is that your OP Predator just isn’t OP enough for you at the moment? </p><p>I love how swashys, rangers, assys and brigs, all feel entitled to being the most absurdly OP class in the game and it just drives them nuts that crusaders are more OP than they are atm. </p><p>When casters were one-hitting scouts it was total anarchy on the forums, the squeal from predators to nerf casters was deafening.</p><p>Now that we’re back to predators one-hitting casters, and casters, in most tiers, not having an effing chance against an equally geared scout, everything is a-okay on that front.</p><p>Now the problem is that those darn crusaders  aren’t dropping fast enough for you, so to completed your grab for absolute OP supremacy, you recommend that SOE reintroduce AA options that were so laughable OP that even the predator-worshiping devs had to remove it.</p><p>Crusaders are crazy OP, but for the most part, you don’t have to engage them if you don’t want to. That's not true with swashys or rangers and that makes all the difference in the world, and you know it.</p><p>I, like so many others, hated everscout, and it sickens me to see so many forum topics dedicated to the idea that rolling back the clock is the answer to everything.</p><p>Really, it's just a tiny fraction of the player base  begging SOE for their Everscout God-Mode back (either wholesale or implemented gradually, such as by reintroducing game-breaking advantages in PvP, such as Reach).</p><p>I hope SOE doesn’t bow to their pressure and turn this game back into the steaming pile of butt apples it use to be, when predators had all their PvP wins served to them on a golden platter, and everyone else was just S*** out of luck.</p>

Wytie
06-25-2010, 04:49 PM
<p><cite>Felleyes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, what you’re saying, is that your OP Predator just isn’t OP enough for you at the moment? </p><p>I love how swashys, rangers, assys and brigs, all feel entitled to being the most absurdly OP class in the game and it just drives them nuts that crusaders are more OP than they are atm. </p><p>When casters were one-hitting scouts it was total anarchy on the forums, the squeal from predators to nerf casters was deafening.</p><p>Now that we’re back to predators one-hitting casters, and casters, in most tiers, not having an effing chance against an equally geared scout, everything is a-okay on that front.</p><p>Now the problem is that those darn crusaders  aren’t dropping fast enough for you, so to completed your grab for absolute OP supremacy, you recommend that SOE reintroduce AA options that were so laughable OP that even the predator-worshiping devs had to remove it.</p><p>Crusaders are crazy OP, but for the most part, you don’t have to engage them if you don’t want to. That's not true with swashys or rangers and that makes all the difference in the world, and you know it.</p><p>I, like so many others, hated everscout, and it sickens me to see so many forum topics dedicated to the idea that rolling back the clock is the answer to everything.</p><p>Really, it's just a tiny fraction of the player base  begging SOE for their Everscout God-Mode back (either wholesale or implemented gradually, such as by reintroducing game-breaking advantages in PvP, such as Reach).</p><p>I hope SOE doesn’t bow to their pressure and turn this game back into the steaming pile of butt apples it use to be, when predators had all their PvP wins served to them on a golden platter, and everyone else was just S*** out of luck.</p></blockquote><p>The only people getting 1 shotted are the newbs with zero toughness, apparently you havent been paying attention or playing this game......</p><p>Also case you havent noticed any class can have its own "reach" so why remove an AA line, that everyone can just get anyway from gear?</p><p>I have a reach charm on my warlock. So its cool for me to have it from an item but swashes cant from their AA.</p><p>Look it doesnt take very much logic to understand how this doesnt make any sense.</p>

Shiirr
06-25-2010, 05:24 PM
<p>Paill, leave logic out of this.  there's no place for it on these forums.</p>

Crismorn
06-25-2010, 07:35 PM
<p>Mah Swashie needs reach~</p>

Taldier
06-25-2010, 08:05 PM
<p><cite>Felleyes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, what you’re saying, is that your OP Predator just isn’t OP enough for you at the moment? </p><p>I love how swashys, rangers, assys and brigs, all feel entitled to being the most absurdly OP class in the game and it just drives them nuts that crusaders are more OP than they are atm. </p><p>When casters were one-hitting scouts it was total anarchy on the forums, the squeal from predators to nerf casters was deafening.</p><p>Now that we’re back to predators one-hitting casters, and casters, in most tiers, not having an effing chance against an equally geared scout, everything is a-okay on that front.</p></blockquote><p>Swashies arent predators.  They are rogues.</p><p>If a swashie oneshots you, you fail at life.  I dont care what class you are.</p><p>As for reach, it used to be a serious pain to fight against it, but then they used to be alot more powerful then they are now.  I can remember a time way way back when taking a melee class against a swashie with his temps up was asking for a seriously hard fight.  I doubt it would be as op as it was back then.</p><p>I also remember when people actually had to use different tactics based on what class they were fighting, but thats its own topic.</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-25-2010, 08:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Felleyes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So, what you’re saying, is that your OP Predator just isn’t OP enough for you at the moment? </p><p>I love how swashys, rangers, assys and brigs, all feel entitled to being the most absurdly OP class in the game and it just drives them nuts that crusaders are more OP than they are atm. </p><p>When casters were one-hitting scouts it was total anarchy on the forums, the squeal from predators to nerf casters was deafening.</p><p>Now that we’re back to predators one-hitting casters, and casters, in most tiers, not having an effing chance against an equally geared scout, everything is a-okay on that front.</p></blockquote><p>Swashies arent predators.  They are rogues.</p><p>If a swashie oneshots you, you fail at life.  I dont care what class you are.</p><p>As for reach, it used to be a serious pain to fight against it, but then they used to be alot more powerful then they are now.  I can remember a time way way back when taking a melee class against a swashie with his temps up was asking for a seriously hard fight.  I doubt it would be as op as it was back then.</p><p>I also remember when people actually had to use different tactics based on what class they were fighting, but thats its own topic.</p></blockquote><p>The intro of Miragul reach charms negated the right to nerf the AA IMO</p>

Uskeab
06-26-2010, 03:57 PM
<p>if you get the Reach aa, and if you get the charm on top of that, does it stack making ur range even further?</p><p>if so, then it may be best to just make people that want it so badly, get the charm.</p><p>reach x1 = powerfull   reachx2 = overpowerfull +1</p>

We_want_your_soul
06-26-2010, 06:06 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>if you get the Reach aa, and if you get the charm on top of that, does it stack making ur range even further?</p><p>if so, then it may be best to just make people that want it so badly, get the charm.</p><p>reach x1 = powerfull   reachx2 = overpowerfull +1</p></blockquote><p>Pretty sure it would cap at 100% no matter what. When rangers get this it's gamebreaking to me, especially since swashbucklers can't even use their 1 point AA yet you get items that have the same thing??</p><p><img src="http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/Aranea_photos/Everquest%20Pics/EQ2_000052.jpg" width="1366" height="706" /></p><p>The Inspired Daring part was just to show how nerfed inspired daring has become. Even at 93-115, which in itself sucks since it has such a low spread and isn't much damage at all. Leave it like it is, just give back Reach. Our damage in itself is fine, just give us reach back since it's in game anyways through items that other classes can ALSO use.</p>

hyste
06-26-2010, 10:55 PM
<p>Personally I think its stupid that reach is obtainable by other classes through items but swashys can't get it through their aa? </p><p>WTB Reach back.</p>

We_want_your_soul
06-28-2010, 01:32 AM
<p>This is why the nerf is absolutely pointless at this stage of the game. Although Necklace of the Plague isn't really applicable except the people who killed Avatars during The Shadow Odyssey</p><p><img src="http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/Aranea_photos/reachstillingame.png" /></p>

Jeht
06-28-2010, 01:50 AM
<p>wtb reach back</p>

We_want_your_soul
06-28-2010, 02:14 AM
<p>And further demonstration of when a mage gets something melee oriented over a scout:</p><p><img src="http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/Aranea_photos/spellbladereflexes.png" /></p><p>At rank 10, that's 100% (the Piercing Crushing is low cuz i'm on my 48 Illy).</p>

We_want_your_soul
07-03-2010, 05:58 AM
<p>A simple yay/nay or we are looking into it would be awesome <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>