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View Full Version : Prayer from a Nagafen player. (Dear God, please fix PvP.)


Bryony
06-14-2010, 10:46 AM
<p><span style="color: #ffff99;">Hi  some of you you probably know me as Bryony. Warning. Incoming Wall of Text. PvP (censored) and Fix it session. I'm sure some of this has been said before. I don't really post on the forums much so this is my version, here goes. Dear God... I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible. </span><span><span style="color: #ffff99;"><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">The total complete destruction of PvP in EQII makes me sick.</span></strong> I feel like after playing on PvP servers from the beginning, Blue before that, and EQI before that - I have put in my time and earned the right to say that. I grew up with you guys. Had my first crush on a boy here. Gained and lost friends here. Devoted countless hours and parts of my paychecks to this game. When you do that you aren't just playing a game, you are relying on a company. I've spent years of my life with you from personal level to paying customer. Other than a few lapses in my subscription for that annoying real life thing I am probably one of the people who played this video game way too much, and loved it.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;">Hoorah, moving on. Did I mention PvP, oh wait I mean the total lack of, complete death of PvP makes me sick? Oh right, I did. I'm not one of those people who complains a lot. I don't post on forums very often. Rather than post on flames, I decided this was a family issue. I mean, we all play for you, right? Your bottom line is product economics and our bottom line is having fun after whatever it is we do in our beautiful daily lives. Let me just put this out there. I love this game. I love this game in a screaming fangirl, signed poster in my room, fan faire dress up, hullabaloo kind of way. I believe that it is the best game of its class on the market. I love it. Always loved it. Have never been as disgruntled as I am right now, and as I became more and more passing somewhere in November 2007. (RoK.) Since then you have taken the PvP that I loved and mangled it into a Pavlov's dog repetitive sedate rock zerg mentality and system that I cannot stand. (I have other issues like our server's well earned name Lagafen, but I came here to address PvP. Which I would gladly do in any kind of lag, including the critical kind that affects game play that we have going on Naggy at the moment. Have had going for who knows how long now? Someone said it best the other night. Server performance is the newest 'fail condition' variable for raiding on Nagafen. I digress.) Dear God. Please fix PvP. I know you are there God. Even the Overlord wants you to fix PvP. Blue server people who talk about contested mobs might not want you to fix PvP, but then I laughed when they said it. You don't know what contested is until you've had to fight for it - in more than a crap, we showed up a minute after they did and have to wait in line kind of way. (No offense bluebies, I'm a roleplayer at heart, I just also happen to be a sociopathic insane person who likes to kill people. You wouldn't understand.) PvP is so bad right now, and on top of it server performance is so bad that people I never thought would quit PvP are talking about leaving for Blue Servers. Not to mention all the people who already left. I can't do it. For me, if there's no PvP anymore, and I can't raid for server issues there is no reason to play this game. I want to play this game. I'm still giving you my money. Please keep taking my money and consider the following .... I don't know how many of you guys have been around PvP for very long, but I know there's a lot of us who still play. Who remember what it was like when there were several PvP guilds on both servers and every single night you could go out solo, duo, trio, in a group and find other people doing the same thing. Out roaming all the zones, looking for a fight. And, fight they did. Groups that were tactically built, people who had learned how to play their classes and ENJOYED going up against other people and playing in a split second response environment based on what was coming at you. Nights where all sides came out to have a good time and duel. Epic raid battles between guilds who were PROUD that they not only raided well but kicked major (censored) in PvP. When was the last time there was anything like that? November 2007 and before. The last time you saw half the server turn out for a night of battles off the sands, or BB docks? Even before that. The last time you saw an actual PvP group, with an actual MA, fighting another actual PvP group over land? It faded and died in TSO. The worst thing that ever happened to this game for PvP (in my opinion) was writs. As soon as you created the zerg point, it was over. I stayed with you through that. Watching the decline and decay of competitive PvP. Still, there were a few people left, out doing it. Definitely still some solo and duo out in zones, and a few old school PvP groups who could not give up looking for a fight. RIP by the way, I miss you guys. The new title system chokes me. How you could not put in a solution for AFK OVERLORD before now escapes me. I cannot imagine why this doesn't hit everyone in the face like a huge /FACEPALM as the most ridiculous mechanic (among many). An example. You lost me at the beginning of TSO. I quit. I was disgusted with PvP, burned out on raiding all the time, and ready for a break. When I came back you'd changed the game to reflect said title mechanics. When I logged into Haven again there were all of these people standing around afk with huge titles. I had never seen so many Overseers. I thought wow a lot of people I never knew suddenly started to PvP... really well. Only to find out NO some genius (no offense genius) thought it would be a great idea to make a PVP TITLE unable to be lost in PVP, easily gained by zerging though, bonus. The only way you could lose your PVP title, an obvious and clear reflection of your skill in PvP, (not that they ever were but at least before you could lose the [Removed for Content] thing and they meant a little something) is by logging out!!! That's right!!! Your meaningless worthless PvP skill title will degrade when you log out to go to bed and the (censored) overlord staying logged in all night bogging down the server will keep his. Way to go genius.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;">At least before there were only the handful of (censored mules) that farmed their fame and I assure you everyone else on the server humiliated them for it. Respect was earned in PvP. It was its own control mechanism. You (censored) that one up. That killed me. I would like to see one of two things. The old semi-broken title system re-instated.<span style="color: #17e756;"> </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>Or, the option to hide the current completely worthless pvp title you make me wear every night.</strong></span> Everyone will agree, the system had flaws before, but it was a lot more right than what we have now. Olihin told me months ago there would be changes to it, and we don't have enough resources, and it takes coding, and other issues, and whatever. I can believe it with the launch of the current expansion and a lot of the internal staff changes. We're not asking you for miracles here. Just some attention and not the kind of attention you've been giving us. What we need here is a revival man. The final frontier in competitive PvP was the errant raid battle over an Avatar. (Can't help but slip this in - all but Insurrection who left for the then vacated Venekor to farm them without competition. Which also totally boggled my mind because some of those guys are old school PvP.) Anyway, back to the raiders who actually had balls to fight it out and enjoyed contested content in its true blessed form. Hard as (censored) to kill. A real achievement to down one. And oh the fights trying to do it. All gone. You officially killed ALL of the competitive group and raid PvP. Sure, you see remnants of old groups, and dogged oldies out killing the zerg, and running bgs, but is that PvP ...? I bet they don't think so. Now the only thing we've got is token farming, zone lagging, worthless title having, Pavlov's dogs on a rock zerg fest crap. Sure, if you want to let people use their twinked raid toons to farm tokens for all of their other toons, why not! I mean, if it's not easy, people don't want it right? (Can't imagine why we all loved this game before when it was harder ...)</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;">God, if you're still listening to me this far in, wtb real PvP. Open a server with the old ruleset and title system on it and see how many people transfer or roll there. Yeah Right, when pigs fly, but I'd go, in a heartbeat. I actually like Battlegrounds but could we could use a 6 v 6 deathmatch where he with the most kills, points, damage, i don't even know you work it out - wins. I mean I would give anything for a good group v group throw down right now. A raid v raid one like that wouldn't hurt either. A one on one duel type setting would also make me excited in a good way.Lag zone pile of people free for alls can be fun. It just can't be all there is. </span></span><span><span style="color: #ffff99;"><strong>To sum up!! <span style="color: #ff6600;">1. Dear God fix the titles or give me the option not to show the stupid things.2. Oh Lord please burn writs and writ givers in a fire and never ever ever ever do anything like that again.3. Please come up with new contested content people care about to inspire raid PvP once again.4. Group v Group battle style BGs, raid and 1 v 1 duel options too, hey!</span></strong> The one credit I will give is the bringing back of level locking. That at least got some banging going on again in lower tiers. Us end game PvP folks are thirsty though, boss. We don't know what to do with ourselves and we're waiting on you to fix it.</span></span><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;">I understand the argument that if people wanted to play like that they'd be forming those groups and going out to PvP (and we should be [Removed for Content] it!) but people respond to the game that you create for them. You create mechanics that reward and enforce a certain play style and right now that's token zerging one zone pile up. You created lazy players who responded to your bell. Now that bell is all there is. War is fun - I like war. I'm just dying for a restoration of PvP on PvP servers. Call me crazy. To that end I exiled the Ranger this week. I was going to make her an assassin but then I got out there. I did a BG, I ran out to CL picking people off at War. I had a blast for the first time in a long time. No writ ding. Wearing (censored) broker gear because I lost my PvP set when I hit Haven. Hell, I hadn't even done her mythical conversion yet. (Sad side effect of changing mains to raid and not planning your current course of insanity ahead of time.) I don't care. I'm keeping her out there. I'll BG to get the gear and gear isn't everything. I've been doing fine. I'd rather have everyone as a target, be able to actually PvP, and pick off every single AFK Overlord and Pavlovs zerger out there. Sounds fun to me. I don't plan to stop raiding or playing or pvping on my city main - but I do plan on some after hours exiled mayhem at the expense of anyone I can find to kill. I was hoping some other crazy, sick of no PvP, old school bad [Removed for Content] would join me. Just sayin.  New school murder friendly bad [Removed for Content] would also be acceptable.  Must love PvP and making people rage. PS Please don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Obviously I'm being funny but I'm desperate here. I sure hope you are listening God. I don't pray much. I love you God, and I love this game. Amen. I will pray for a new server next week.</span></span></p></p>

Wytie
06-14-2010, 11:44 AM
<p>BEST POST EVER</p>

Aldhissla
06-14-2010, 11:53 AM
<p>I really feel you and I think every true PvPer is longing for a proper PvP system that's rewarding in itself and not because you get better gear by <strong>participating.</strong></p>

BlueEternal
06-14-2010, 12:13 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BEST POST EVER</p></blockquote><p>Q F E. THIS is the post that Olihin and the rest of the development team needs to read. Bring back the excitement of t7. Stop feeding the pvp community easy handouts. Give us a sense of accomplishment, a sense of pride in what we've done and the history we've had on Nagafen.</p>

Cantor
06-14-2010, 12:25 PM
<p>Amen</p>

Taamerlane
06-14-2010, 01:04 PM
<p>AMEN!</p><p>This brought tears to my eyes.  For real.  Best post i have read in a long time.  So i had to speak up.</p><p>PLEASE FIX PVP IN THE GAME WE ALL LOVE.</p><p>Taamerlane - PvPing since PvP was introduced</p>

Neskonlith
06-14-2010, 01:44 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Want open-pvp?  The server cannot handle open-pvp!  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">We have lag-pvp.  It is so laggy, I wrote this comment 10 minutes ago and it took this long to render.  Heck, I was playing perfectly fine with 3-4s delay in Freeport TG when we liberated the writ room - yet Warfails for me are painfully slow slideshows with no writ updates, no Tokens and no happy endings.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So I packed it in with the Hole-in-the-Wall Gang, and we wrote it all off.  We're heading to farm some zone nick-named Bolivia, and now we don't worry about trying to get pvp gear anymore.  I hear there is a Warfield Tower at the San Vincente zone, but I'm likely going to pass on that one and let Butch and Sundance scout it out...</span></p>

Darman81
06-14-2010, 01:47 PM
<p> When I first read the title I thought, here we go somebody else complaining about overpowered classes!</p><p>Wow was I ever wrong! By far the best and most constructive post I have seen in a LONG time! Thanks for taking the time to write it!</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 02:11 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Want open-pvp?  The server cannot handle open-pvp!  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">We have lag-pvp.  It is so laggy, I wrote this comment 10 minutes ago and it took this long to render.  Heck, I was playing perfectly fine with 3-4s delay in Freeport TG when we liberated the writ room - yet Warfails for me are painfully slow slideshows with no writ updates, no Tokens and no happy endings.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So I packed it in with the Hole-in-the-Wall Gang, and we wrote it all off.  We're heading to farm some zone nick-named Bolivia, and now we don't worry about trying to get pvp gear anymore.  I hear there is a Warfield Tower at the San Vincente zone, but I'm likely going to pass on that one and let Butch and Sundance scout it out...</span></p></blockquote><p>What makes me laugh about that is that we all used to complain about the lag when there was real PvP (though I don't remember it being laggy while raiding PvE content) and now the lag is just like .... really? It's brutal on Nagafen. PvE and PvP content. </p><p>BUT no getting off subject. Lag and server performance are next weeks sermon, er prayer, er .... yeah. I would PvP in any kind of lag if they'd give it to me. Any day, any time, thank you Jesus, praise the lord, Amen.</p><p>It's all stuff I've wanted to say for a long time but I don't talk a lot. I know we're all thinking it - and if you aren't something is wrong with you. (Censored) it man, I'm just tired of it. I had to question myself for posting something like that, to be so passionate about a video game but the fact is I AM and I've devoted tons of time, years of my life, to this game - and invested a lot. Sometimes you just have to say - hey man, this is messed up. And, if no one listens. Say it louder.</p>

Arieneth
06-14-2010, 02:33 PM
<p>Very well said.</p><p>It is a very sad state of affairs when the measure of success on a pvp server is solely determined on how well you raid. There hasn't been a lasting pvp oriented guild in years because of the deterioration of competitive pvp. our pvp dev is incompetent and has no idea how to fix anything and just causes more problems. pvp servers were much better off when we had a pve dev running our server...making us largely ignored.</p><p>Everything was so much better when people pvp'd for the sake of killing people and rubbing their faces in it. no rewards...just the thrill of the hunt and glory of the kill.</p><p>despite the flaws of T7 with cliff diving and fleeing dishonorably (who remembers that one?)...T7 was exciting. never a dull moment. at any moment there were loads of groups seeking out other groups to battle for superiority. i remember flying cloud to cloud in Barren Sky just to land on a group. or chasing people cloud to cloud to punish them for running. and the semi-rare occurence of all groups converging on Whisperwind for epic battle royale awesomeness.</p><p>even EoF was able to keep the pvp flame burning. but the decline was already upon us. and so came an endless string of failures. tokens, writs, rewards for zerging, pvp gear, ruining exile, battlegrounds, etc. it's like SOE and our pvp dev are hell bent on killing this server.</p><p>i would give anything to have a new pvp server. i'd give every piece of raid gear and pvp gear to go back to when the measure of a player was determined by their skill as a player and not the gear they wore. give us T7 Classic. level 70 cap, lvl 70 zones, old rules, old gear and leave it the hell alone.</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 02:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Very well said.</p><p>It is a very sad state of affairs when the measure of success on a pvp server is solely determined on how well you raid. There hasn't been a lasting pvp oriented guild in years because of the deterioration of competitive pvp. our pvp dev is incompetent and has no idea how to fix anything and just causes more problems. pvp servers were much better off when we had a pve dev running our server...making us largely ignored.</p><p>Everything was so much better when people pvp'd for the sake of killing people and rubbing their faces in it. no rewards...just the thrill of the hunt and glory of the kill.</p><p>despite the flaws of T7 with cliff diving and fleeing dishonorably (who remembers that one?)...T7 was exciting. never a dull moment. at any moment there were loads of groups seeking out other groups to battle for superiority. i remember flying cloud to cloud in Barren Sky just to land on a group. or chasing people cloud to cloud to punish them for running. and the semi-rare occurence of all groups converging on Whisperwind for epic battle royale awesomeness.</p><p>even EoF was able to keep the pvp flame burning. but the decline was already upon us. and so came an endless string of failures. tokens, writs, rewards for zerging, pvp gear, ruining exile, battlegrounds, etc. it's like SOE and our pvp dev are hell bent on killing this server.</p><p><strong><span style="font-size: small;">i would give anything to have a new pvp server. i'd give every piece of raid gear and pvp gear to go back to when the measure of a player was determined by their skill as a player and not the gear they wore. give us T7 Classic. level 70 cap, lvl 70 zones, old rules, old gear and leave it the hell alone.</span></strong></p></blockquote><p>Amen, Arie.</p>

Heleptra
06-14-2010, 02:57 PM
<p>Man 10+ to you for writing all that down. i feel you<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Im also from pve/ and beginning of nagafen played-</p><p>Im not gonna say now what i miss and know. But im also an hardcore pvper.</p><p>SOE LISTEN TO THIS GUY FFFS!</p><p>-Reduce immunity spots in norrath. Especially all the docks.</p><p>-Put the old fame system back.</p><p>-Reduce the 200 ward from lvl 10 pvp gear.</p><p>-Make the tokems body drop.</p><p>-Make nameds,mobs harder compared to the new gear.</p><p>We dont want this game to get easier.Those who fell in love with this game years ago, Fell in love because it was hard and it needed brains and team work to conqure Norrath.</p><p>Your loyal player Hartsia.</p>

Heleptra
06-14-2010, 02:58 PM
<p>Aah forgot 1 thiny.</p><p>Let us for god sake talk with the other faction.</p>

Neskonlith
06-14-2010, 03:02 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I'd actually pull my assassin out of retirement for the return of gank+evac!  KoS Everscout was fun like "Assassin's Creed".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Remember when "Decapitate" was actually a CA that inspired fear in clothies?</span></p>

Heleptra
06-14-2010, 03:10 PM
<p>yeah i remember lol<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Heleptra
06-14-2010, 03:12 PM
<p>Thats why this game is getting bored beause its too easy and no penaltys any where.</p><p>U CANT LOVE SOMETHING IF U CANT HATE.</p><p>U REALISE U MISS SOMETHING WHEN U LOST IT    "_"</p>

Cantor
06-14-2010, 03:13 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I'd actually pull my assassin out of retirement for the return of gank+evac!  KoS Everscout was fun like "Assassin's Creed".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Remember when "Decapitate" was actually a CA that inspired fear in clothies?</span></p></blockquote><p>Even that was better than this.</p>

Heleptra
06-14-2010, 03:24 PM
<p>Yeah, because if u get really mad when u die. U will get really happy when u win<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Neskonlith
06-14-2010, 03:39 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> <span style="color: #ff0000;">I'd actually pull my assassin out of retirement for the return of gank+evac!  KoS Everscout was fun like "Assassin's Creed".</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Remember when "Decapitate" was actually a CA that inspired fear in clothies?</span> </p></blockquote><p>Even that was better than this.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">KoS was responsible for about ~25k of the 35801 "nerf scouts" threads.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Back then, you had a valid reason to run totems!</span></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/eq2assassinscreed.jpg" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Didn't matter if you were hiding in a group, it was always the gnome that got you: decap+evac ftw!</span></p>

Arieneth
06-14-2010, 03:39 PM
<p>stuff like Assassinate was good in some ways. it allowed assassins to play like assassins...sneaking up and owning you. if you wanted to solo, you had this constant fear of not knowing who was watching you...hiding in the shadows waiting to pounce...then...BAM, lights out.</p><p>that unknown element was exciting. never knowing if you were seconds from death or who was waiting for you when landed on a cloud/griffin platform. there was no such thing as an overpowered class...just overpowered players.</p><p>there has been so much carebearing in the last 3 years that no mortal can comprehend it. immunity points around every corner. i want zone control back. like going into Sanctum of Scaleborn and killing everyone inside, forcing them to leave or get backup. or finding out a guilds raid schedule and blocking them from ever getting there. where has that aspect of the game gone?</p><p>now we have serverwide call/teleport, guild flags, endless evacs...anything and everything possible to keep people out of zones and in an instance.</p>

Arieneth
06-14-2010, 03:44 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Didn't matter if you were hiding in a group, it was always the gnome that got you: decap+evac ftw!</span></p></blockquote><p><span >lol...it really didn't. i remember a couple times standing on Whisperwind and a scout would jump off the rocks and own the clothie in my group. we laughed...got yelled at...and moved on.</span></p><p>sure Everscout had it's issues...but it encouraged group pvp. who can honestly say the scout problems of old were worse than the endless crap pile of problems we have today?</p>

MalicorDraven
06-14-2010, 03:45 PM
<p>I support everything the OP has said.  With one condition, <span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: small;"><strong>consequences</strong></span>. There must be consequences to pvp to balance rewards.  I would suggest you (devs) draw ideas from the one game that has successful pvp albit with its own issues, <strong><span style="color: #3366ff;">EvE Online</span></strong>.  That game, while a completely different genre, has successful pvp why?  Because there are consequences and rewards which escalate with the risk.</p><p>Here is a suggestion, armor decay, not the same as damage, a subset, after a certain number of repairs, the armor breaks completely.  Throw in corpse armor/wep/jewelry looting beyond just treasured, and all the "basically free" pvp gear that has shown up becomes useable by the victors, at least til it breaks.  Allow crafters to break down the completely broken gear, to throw them a bone, and now you have a reason to pvp (maybe).  Fine tune this thought a bit, and maybe pvp would be worth while.</p>

Putyo
06-14-2010, 03:50 PM
<p>Pvp would take months to fix at this point, lag issues would take years....</p><p>There are no easy fixes and if you have played on Nagafen for more then a month you will know we never get fixes that take longer then 10minutes to code, with exception to warfields but hrm...those really turned out fantastic?</p><p>The writ mentalitiy is encoded deep into 95% of this servers brain, keep pressing revive until you win no matter how stupid it makes you look, there is barely any respect any more and enough revive points to make zone control impossible, not to mention how you can evac and just stand in immunity until you decide that its safe to come out.</p><p>Toning down some of the toughness would be a good start but so far oilthin hasnt addressed any concerns other then how to zerg in warfields. GL trying to change the server but this developer shouldnt of labled himself a pvp dev because he has zero idea about the inner workings of pvp mechanics and has so far made this game EXTRAORDINARILY worse then when we had no pvp dev, dont even ask me how he managed to do that.</p><p>We are 1 red server in the middle of 13 other highly populated blue servers, sorry, they just dont care enough, unless it has to do with Battlegrounds. Thanks Oilthin, I hope I never get the displeasure of meeting you again.</p>

Pinino-Lfg
06-14-2010, 03:59 PM
<p>Wow [Removed for Content] sinc, totally in love with you right now truer wo</p><p>rds have never been spoken, what is so horrible is before they can fix pvp they have to fix the lag on nagafen wish they would set up a donation bucket or somthing to start pooling for a top notch server lol id throw in every single paycheck.</p>

Arieneth
06-14-2010, 04:06 PM
<p><cite>MalicorDraven wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I support everything the OP has said.  With one condition, <span style="font-size: small; color: #ff0000;"><strong>consequences</strong></span>. There must be consequences to pvp to balance rewards.  I would suggest you (devs) draw ideas from the one game that has successful pvp albit with its own issues, <strong><span style="color: #3366ff;">EvE Online</span></strong>.  That game, while a completely different genre, has successful pvp why?  Because there are consequences and rewards which escalate with the risk.</p><p>Here is a suggestion, armor decay, not the same as damage, a subset, after a certain number of repairs, the armor breaks completely.  Throw in corpse armor/wep/jewelry looting beyond just treasured, and all the "basically free" pvp gear that has shown up becomes useable by the victors, at least til it breaks.  Allow crafters to break down the completely broken gear, to throw them a bone, and now you have a reason to pvp (maybe).  Fine tune this thought a bit, and maybe pvp would be worth while.</p></blockquote><p>consequences such as armor decay were proposed before as a means to break up the zerg. but our pvp dev ignores good ideas so he can ruin this game further.</p><p>i still stand by my statement that pvp should be rewardless in terms of items. the best reward is winning. rewards move to the primary focus of pvp from killing...to getting gear.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pvp would take months to fix at this point, lag issues would take years....</p><p>There are no easy fixes and if you have played on Nagafen for more then a month you will know we never get fixes that take longer then 10minutes to code, with exception to warfields but hrm...those really turned out fantastic?</p><p>The writ mentalitiy is encoded deep into 95% of this servers brain, keep pressing revive until you win no matter how stupid it makes you look, there is barely any respect any more and enough revive points to make zone control impossible, not to mention how you can evac and just stand in immunity until you decide that its safe to come out.</p><p>Toning down some of the toughness would be a good start but so far oilthin hasnt addressed any concerns other then how to zerg in warfields. GL trying to change the server but this developer shouldnt of labled himself a pvp dev because he has zero idea about the inner workings of pvp mechanics and has so far made this game EXTRAORDINARILY worse then when we had no pvp dev, dont even ask me how he managed to do that.</p><p>We are 1 red server in the middle of 13 other highly populated blue servers, sorry, they just dont care enough, unless it has to do with Battlegrounds. Thanks Oilthin, I hope I never get the displeasure of meeting you again.</p></blockquote><p>Nagafen is a lost cause. i can't believe Olihin has been able to keep his job. easily the worst thing to happen to the server we call home. rewards for zerging and handing out gear to lazy scrubs. just a couple highlights of his genius. but i can tell you how he screwed up so bad. he listened to the crybabies. too many people couldn't handle pvp back when it was hard so he made it easier and easier. and now look at it...</p><p>this is why i want an EQ2 Classic server...T7, the glory days. i won't believe for a minute they don't have backups of all the old code.</p>

Putyo
06-14-2010, 04:09 PM
<p>Oilthin already posted that the old fame system would be very hard to bring back because they would have to recode everything.</p><p>That is pretty terrible but there you go, dont expect any major changes until expac.</p><p>LoL.</p>

Cantor
06-14-2010, 04:15 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oilthin already posted that the old fame system would be very hard to bring back because they would have to recode everything.</p><p>That is pretty terrible but there you go, dont expect any major changes until expac.</p><p>LoL.</p></blockquote><p>Yea, thats a good story but, sorry, I can't believe it. He have other problems to fix and don't wanna add one more.</p>

MalicorDraven
06-14-2010, 04:15 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>MalicorDraven wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I support everything the OP has said.  With one condition, <span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: small;"><strong>consequences</strong></span>. There must be consequences to pvp to balance rewards.  I would suggest you (devs) draw ideas from the one game that has successful pvp albit with its own issues, <strong><span style="color: #3366ff;">EvE Online</span></strong>.  That game, while a completely different genre, has successful pvp why?  Because there are consequences and rewards which escalate with the risk.</p><p>Here is a suggestion, armor decay, not the same as damage, a subset, after a certain number of repairs, the armor breaks completely.  Throw in corpse armor/wep/jewelry looting beyond just treasured, and all the "basically free" pvp gear that has shown up becomes useable by the victors, at least til it breaks.  Allow crafters to break down the completely broken gear, to throw them a bone, and now you have a reason to pvp (maybe).  Fine tune this thought a bit, and maybe pvp would be worth while.</p></blockquote><p>consequences such as armor decay were proposed before as a means to break up the zerg. but our pvp dev ignores good ideas so he can ruin this game further.</p><p>i still stand by my statement that pvp should be rewardless in terms of items. the best reward is winning. rewards move to the primary focus of pvp from killing...to getting gear.</p></blockquote><p> If it worked, as it does in EvE, where loot drop is random, you could have players drop a chest much as mobs do now, higher famed "named" players increase the chance for better chest, better chance for better loot. But the purpose behind the suggestion is to remove incoming gear, and gear in general from the game, there by increasing the need for dare I say it, crafters, and strengthening the economy.  The benefit is not directly to pvp, but to the game.</p>

Neskonlith
06-14-2010, 04:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>too many people couldn't handle pvp back when it was hard so he made it easier and easier. and now look at it...</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Each time SOE listened to "nerf scouts", open-pvp lost unique danger and risk.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">With no more gank+evac to fear, there is no longer any need for groups to be vigilant anymore. Dirges lost mythical pvp proc, so healers no longer face that peril anymore. Swashies, brigands lost unique abilites that made them dangerous to encounter in open-pvp.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">NERF SCOUTS! has helped to make the open-pvp game bland since the current OP classes are now good at everything, rather than just one thing.  If classes were food, scouts would be bacon - which would explain the longstanding class envy!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Dear SOE: please please please NERF LAG!</span></p>

zyllith
06-14-2010, 04:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nagafen is a lost cause. i can't believe Olihin has been able to keep his job. easily the worst thing to happen to the server we call home. rewards for zerging and handing out gear to lazy scrubs. just a couple highlights of his genius. but i can tell you how he screwed up so bad. he listened to the crybabies. too many people couldn't handle pvp back when it was hard so he made it easier and easier. and now look at it...</p><p>this is why i want an EQ2 Classic server...T7, the glory days. i won't believe for a minute they don't have backups of all the old code.</p></blockquote><p>... and other comments in a similar vein ...</p><p>Umm ... there are indeed a handful of people who passionately want to go back to the "old ways", where the lazy scrubs were slaughtered, when assassins lurked at rez points ready to oneshot an unwary traveler, where squads of FP's congregated at choke points again to slaughter the lazy scrubs, etc. etc.</p><p>Unfortunately, EQ2 costs money to run each and every day and SOE isn't making EQ2 as a public service, they are doing it to, well, make money.  Each quarter the dev's need to generate revenue and by "generate revenue" that means new people coming to the game.  Without new people coming to the game, and enjoying that game, then "revenue" doesn't come in and SOE decided to put it's money elsewhere.</p><p>Those "lazy scrubs", those "crybabies", those "people who couldn't handle pvp back when it was hard" most unfortunately make up a large portion of the "generate revenue" equation.  Look back at the subscriber counts over the last few years -- those "lazy bluebie servers" are going *up* in population, the PvP servers are going down.  If you don't have enough "new revenue" then SOE will make a simple business decision to first merge servers (oh yeah, they *did* do that) and then simply pack up the whole mess and put money into things that *do* generate revenue like the bluebie servers.</p><p>I can appreciate that some people enjoy the "good old days", and if only there were new players who appreciated the subtleties of being ganked hundreds of times until they "learned to play" and could start getting new gear, who were willing to put aside families, friends, school, work and all other aspects of life to put in the 5+ hrs each day for years in PvP rather than the "casual 2-4 hr per week" then I'm sure that Olihin and the devs would gladly make PvP just as hard core as it used to be, maybe more so.</p><p>Tragically, unfortunately, with much regret, that isn't happening.  Olihin and company are trying mightly to keep PvP in the game without alienating those "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" who "only PvP 2-4hr every week" that "generate revenue" for the game that, ultimately, is a business for SOE.  I for one continue to appreciate the work that they are doing and hope that PvP will continue to become something to look forward to for the "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" out there rather than just another gauntlet to run on the way to content -- and the BG's and WF's do just that.</p><p>I appreciate the lost years of your lives spent amassing tons of ultra-expensive PvP gear that can now be obtained by sitting AFK on the docks in a few evenings, and recognize the personal sacrifices each of the hard core people made to become one-shot overseers. </p><p>It's a business.  Catering to the 95% of "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" is what pays the bills, and what ultimately will determine what Olihin can and can't do, period. </p><p>Sorry!</p>

Salastine
06-14-2010, 04:49 PM
<p>This is a great post, brings back a ton of great memories...  like sitting vulnerable on the wizard spire in Nek Forest, constantly spinning my view 360 degrees watching for a stealthed scout to jump out of the trees at any moment for a title hit, counting the seconds left for the portal to zone be up to Barren Sky so I could breathe easy for 15 seconds while zoning.  After which it was off to the races, chasing cloud hoppers (and memorizing the initial flying patterns to identify which island they were flying to almost instantly), dodging groups, knocking people off cliffs and generally having adrenaline-packed fun until I finally had to logout due to exhaustion from the thrills, rather than a numb butt from clicking the same buttons over and over watching a slideshow.</p><p>There's really no thrill in it anymore...  BG's are more fun than anything open world has to offer now tbh, but so cookie cutter and the competition leaves a lot to be desired.  Certainly lacks the "fear of the unknown" factor.  Writs and gear and tokens or w/e aren't the problem by themselves, but as Bryony said it's the way they're being used to encourage/force a particular playstyle upon the players.  I.E. Getting PvP gear (i.e. toughness) is required to compete, and to get the gear you need writ updates, period.  And the easiest/quickest way to get writ updates is to zerg, period.  And once you have the gear....  then what?  Farm more tokens for your alts, and MAYBE have a little pvp fun ganking non-pvp geared folks in lower tiers, becase there's nothing else to shoot for anymore. </p><p>Not sure I had a point here other than to say that I also remember the golden days despite their flaws, and have never had a richer or more rewarding PvP experience than those days.</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 04:59 PM
<p><cite>Heleptra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>SOE LISTEN TO THIS GUY FFFS!</p></blockquote><p>Why does everyone always think I'm a dude!?</p><p>@ memories of Assassinate what was his name that did nothing but run around KoS when it was up and assassinate people?</p><p>@Putyo I have played here for years and I agree about lack of attention compared to blue servers, however it's a blue game that was never designed intentionally to fit what we have going here. However, if I didn't think they cared at all, I'd quit. No one realizes that sometimes the reason blue servers get more done is because they have more voices. People here complain but it is often misdirected from real issues like the lag and more about nerfing classes or petty chatter. Not enough time is devoted to really bringing SOE attention to the things that are REALLY wrong with our system and mechanics right now. We are numbed into thinking we're second rate and nothing is ever going to change so no one says anything. Ho hum.</p><p>Alot of people feel exactly like you do, that they don't care, and it won't change, and Nagafen is what it is. I would like to believe having been here over time through a lot of changes - some better some worse - that they will fix some of this. I would like to think they'd fix it all, (censored) make it even better than before, but even I am not that optimistic. I want them to care. I want them to fix it. Not to go with my prayer theme here but it's all about faith. If I had lost all faith I wouldn't still be playing. One can always hope.</p><p>Olihin told me the same thing about code. Here's my answer: <span style="color: #ff0000; font-size: small;">RECODE IT. END OF STORY. DO IT. </span></p><p>We all know this expansion launch did not go well, to say the least. I am trying to be patient because I can imagine the difficulties they have been having. It has begun to smooth out. Now is the time to address our issues.</p><p>@ Arie I agree about the reward being winning, no need for item rewards but I would like to see tokens back in chests, and IF there are titles that they be able to be gained and lost by that which they represent. I totally agreed about please give me a kos server and all of that. I had a fangirl moment over that idea when you threw it out. It will never happen, but hey.</p><p>@Zyllith I agree, in part. Like I said - their bottom line is product economics and that definitely has to do with new revenue, but it also has to do with maintaining your current client base. Why do you think the PvP servers declined to begin with and are further declining now? A step back could do a lot of good at attracting those lost people back, in addition to a whole new market sector to this game, that enjoy actual real PvP - just like the lot of us rotting on this server right now waiting for them to address some very critical issues for our play.</p><p>The part I disagree with you about is that 95% of our server is scrubby crybabies who can't play the game hard mode that have to be accomodated by absurd mechanics. I really strongly disagree with that. I think 95% of our server would give twice as much money to have PvP fixed and some of the old things back, and the new revenue bs is a huge marketing mistake in this case. Drawing players to the game is one thing. Drawing players to a blue server is one thing. Drawing players to a PvP server is another thing. You need marketing that understands the subtleties of the very game you created and appeals to ALL of the people who want to play it. The kind of people who LIKE to PvP do not need to be spoon fed. That's why you have those other many blue servers. If they can't take the game as intended they do not have to play it. Not to mention battlegrounds give a nice offset to those who don't like actual hardcore PvP. There's NO reason not to fix some of this.</p><p>Sometimes when you make game changes it is obvious you made a mistake. I say again please God. Fix some of it.</p>

Heleptra
06-14-2010, 05:06 PM
<p>Yeah its nothing wrong in admitting and moving on.</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 05:12 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's really no thrill in it anymore...  BG's are more fun than anything open world has to offer now tbh, but so cookie cutter and the competition leaves a lot to be desired.  Certainly lacks the "fear of the unknown" factor.  Writs and gear and tokens or w/e aren't the problem by themselves, but as Bryony said it's the way they're being used to encourage/force a particular playstyle upon the players.  I.E. Getting PvP gear (i.e. toughness) is required to compete, and to get the gear you need writ updates, period.  And the easiest/quickest way to get writ updates is to zerg, period.  And once you have the gear....  then what?  Farm more tokens for your alts, and MAYBE have a little pvp fun ganking non-pvp geared folks in lower tiers, becase there's nothing else to shoot for anymore. </p><p>Not sure I had a point here other than to say that I also remember the golden days despite their flaws, and have never had a richer or more rewarding PvP experience than those days.</p></blockquote><p>That was your point and it was a beautiful thing. You summed it up better than I could have.</p><p>PS Miss you, too. Miss all you guys and all those times, good or bad, honestly. We didn't know how good we had it.</p>

zyllith
06-14-2010, 05:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Heleptra wrote:</cite></p><p>@Zyllith I agree, in part. Like I said - their bottom line is product economics and that definitely has to do with new revenue, but it also has to do with maintaining your current client base. Why do you think the PvP servers declined to begin with and are further declining now? A step back could do a lot of good at attracting those lost people back, in addition to a whole new market sector to this game, that enjoy actual real PvP - just like the lot of us rotting on this server right now waiting for them to address some very critical issues for our play.</p><p>The part I disagree with you about is that 95% of our server is scrubby crybabies who can't play the game hard mode that have to be accomodated by absurd mechanics. I really strongly disagree with that. I think 95% of our server would give twice as much money to have PvP fixed and some of the old things back, and the new revenue bs is a huge marketing mistake in this case. Drawing players to the game is one thing. Drawing players to a blue server is one thing. Drawing players to a PvP server is another thing. You need marketing that understands the subtleties of the very game you created and appeals to ALL of the people who want to play it. The kind of people who LIKE to PvP do not need to be spoon fed. That's why you have those other many blue servers. If they can't take the game as intended they do not have to play it. Not to mention battlegrounds give a nice offset to those who don't like actual hardcore PvP. There's NO reason not to fix some of this.</p><p>Sometimes when you make game changes it is obvious you made a mistake. I say again please God. Fix some of it.</p></blockquote><p>That's quite right, and when you choose the server to create a character on you *do* make a conscious decision to either go a PvE server or a PvP.  When someone makes the conscious decision to choose a PvP server they have agreed that there will be a predator/ prey relationship outside of simple content -- which is why I decided to roll most of my toons on PvP, it adds that extra "wandering uber-monster" aspect to the game when I'm playing content (which is what I spend most of my time doing).</p><p>That said, remember what caused the PvP XP being non-lockable a few years ago?  As I recall, it was because there was a big marketing campaign by SOE that resulted in newbies flooding all of the servers, including the PvP ones ... and of a large number of those accounts being cancelled as a result of lowbies being slaughtered as soon as they hit Antonica due to the level-locked uber-PvP'ers one-shotting them.  That caused quite a bit of bad press for SOE, as well as the loss of revenue from the cancellations, and they instituted that non-lockable PvP to force the uber-locked 13's out of T1.  Again, the bottom line for SOE is revenue and if a PvP server is *losing* subscribers rather than *gaining* then it's going to get merged or shut down, end of story.  At the end of the quarter if Olihin can't show an increase in population on Nagafen then the business case people are going to ask "exactly why do we have that server again?".  The only way that Olihin can increase the population is to encourage the new players to want to stay on Nagafen and again, unfortunately and tragically, that means catering to those lazy scrub, casual PvP newer players. </p><p>You are correct, those who don't like the "hard care" style of play will choose with their feet, exactly as they did a few years back, but if all you are left with is a few hundred hard-core PvP'ers alone on the server then the server *will* get closed.   You are also correct, they need to also avoid alienating the current customer base but again, SOE is running a business and the mantra of any business is always "grow and expand".  I'm sure that Olihin is doing his best to continue to keep the current base happy but "grow and expand" will always trump "keep the current people happy" if by keeping the current people happy you do something to inhibit "grow and expand"</p><p>Y'all are running out of options here -- Venekor got merged, Nag and Vox are all that are left and then it's no PvP of *any* sort, period.  I would seriously consider coming up with suggestions that help maintain some of the "old ways" reward/ risk system while still realizing that the "lazy scrubs" not only need to be tolerated but encouraged or in a few months Nagafen itself could simply be a fond memory.</p><p>Just my thoughts, as an admittedly casual-PvP'er!</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 05:28 PM
<p>I have been lobbying for the old fame system with the option to hide it for so long now. Or at least the ability to hide the current one. And what you don't realize is it's a marketing fail in addition to bad decisions for mechanics changes. If PvP were were marketed as the game IT IS, not just the game overall, the newbies coming in would be more inclined towards the advertised game. PvP hitting you in the face when you are expecting some roleplay questing is rough. Can you imagine someone walking into ODST or some other first person shooter looking for care bear or needing a spoon? They are a huge market and PvP is a blast. We are those people. We pay the bills just like everyone else and there's more of us.</p><p>We also have enough serious raid guilds on the server that PvP could be fixed, in addition to addressing the server performance issues - and I don't care, man - I will be happy to be the last one demanding attention to serious issues, and saying that PvP is a worthwhile lucrative endeavor as a game. You HAVE to change how you look at it - address issues to make ALL players on PvP happy even if that means different mechanics, steps back, or complete reversals. My jury is still out about Olihin. Regardless he's who we got so HI GOD ITS ME BRYONY.</p>

Neskonlith
06-14-2010, 05:31 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why does everyone always think I'm a dude!?  <span style="color: #ff0000;">There are no girls on the internet... lol  =P</span></p><p>@ memories of Assassinate what was his name that did nothing but run around KoS when it was up and assassinate people?   <span style="color: #ff0000;">the Ogre Skree</span></p><p>Sometimes when you make game changes it is obvious you made a mistake. I say again please God. Fix some of it.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If KoS had a theme song, this one was a great candidate:</span></p><p style="padding-left: 60px;"><em><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Sometimes when you're scared to take a lookAt the corner of the roomYou've sensed that somethings watching youFear of the dark, fear of the darkI have a constant fear that somethings always nearFear of the dark, fear of the darkI have a phobia that someone's always thereHave you ever been alone at nightThought you heard footsteps behindAnd turned around and no one's there?And as you quicken up your paceYou find it hard to look againBecause you're sure there's someone thereFear of the dark, fear of the darkI have a constant fear that somethings always nearFear of the dark, fear of the darkI have a phobia that someone's always there</span></em></p><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/factorystandard.jpg" width="227" height="192" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It was gnomes like this that made dress-wearin' finger-wigglers post <em>"nerf scouts!"</em> as natural as breathing.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Nowadays no one really cares if a totem is running.</span></p>

Wytie
06-14-2010, 05:33 PM
<p>Perma immunity killed real pvp, everything else was a byrpoduct im afraid.</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 05:39 PM
<p>You know what else I would love to see but will really really never happen. I wish that there was no PvP gear. I wish to have the best gear you had to conquer the game still. The better you get at your class and play with your mates the more toys you have to use against your enemy. Wishful thinking, I know. But then I was one of those exiles who were never allowed to have PvP gear so my attachment to it probably isn't as big as most peoples. I'm fine with the gear, and even two sets of gear - building raid and pvp gear was always fun - My main issues were in the rant.</p><p>You know what else made me mad? The death of working for your gear. Aww don't want to wait to actually get gear in a zone? Buy it with tokens! And what am I doing right now? Farming freaking tokens.</p><p>I've had friends ask me why I keep playing this game if they make us eat dirt but. Guess I just love it. It would be a [Removed for Content] shame if they completely wrecked PvP for good and/or closed it down. I was one of those lost subscriptions to the changes and I'm still here now, but if it continues to decline and I can't raid due to server performance - what are my options?</p>

Teufell
06-14-2010, 05:41 PM
<p>Dear BryonyThis is The Allmighty Customer Service</p><p>God is currently unavailable on the grounds that He is currently enjoying a welldeserved sponsorpaid (by soe) vacation in another Meta-universe</p><p>ETA back in a very short time, say a millenia or so...</p><p>In the meantime all pvprelated issues should be taken up with the minor god Bristlebane who is currently handling all pvp rules and coding</p><p>Yours Truly,</p><p>Dionyssos</p><p>Customer Service</p>

Earthshine
06-14-2010, 05:52 PM
<p>I want to thank the OP for this post, and I am happy to see a nearly unanimous positive response to its content. All of the sentiment concerning PvP validates every point I was trying to make recently in the warfields thread.</p><p>Its obvious that the majority of long term subscribers prefer old school PvP to the way it is now, myself included. The key terms that make EQ2 PvP what it should be are:</p><p>1. Risk/Reward</p><p>2. Predator/prey environment</p><p>3. Sense of anxiety and fear of the unknown</p><p>Battlegrounds and Warfields offer none of this.</p><p>And as far as incoming newbies cancelling subscriptions because of the nature of PvP when they decided to start playing, what about all of the loyal customers who had been paying the bills? Im sure they ended up losing far more subscriptions than they may have temporarily retained in their attempt at appeasing people who should have never rolled on PvP to begin with. And although I dont have any data to back that up, the declining population is evidence in and of itself. Changing the game for the sake of wannabe come-and-gos in the face of a stable veteran community is a fatal business blunder in terms of a longterm business model.</p><p>I started on Venekor when the popualtion was thriving and PvP was at its peak, which was shortly after the launch of KoS. I level-locked and progressed thru every tier getting the most of everything this game had to offer. I'll never forget how much fun it was and I'm saddened that new players to this game will never experience the game like alot of us remember.</p><p>Near the end of Venekor shortly before the merge I all but quit and transferred all my toons to Vox with the intention of selling and never coming back. The only thing that has kept me playing is end-game raid content and thankfully I have found a great guild with awesome people with the same interests in mind.</p><p>PvP is not what keeps me on board, and BG's are fun in its own way but I would gladly sell all of my toons to start over and play the game the way it used to be.</p><p>P.S. +1 for sticky</p>

MaCloud1032
06-14-2010, 05:54 PM
<p><cite>Teufell wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dear BryonyThis is The Allmighty Customer Service</p><p>God is currently unavailable on the grounds that He is currently enjoying a welldeserved sponsorpaid (by soe) vacation in another Meta-universe</p><p>ETA back in a very short time, say a millenia or so...</p><p>In the meantime all pvprelated issues should be taken up with the minor god Bristlebane who is currently handling all pvp rules and coding</p><p>Yours Truly,</p><p>Dionyssos</p><p>Customer Service</p></blockquote><p>LOL</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 06:09 PM
<p><cite>Teufell wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>In the meantime all pvprelated issues should be taken up with the minor god Bristlebane who is currently handling all pvp rules and coding</p></blockquote><p>Lol</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 06:10 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want to thank the OP for this post, and I am happy to see a nearly unanimous positive response to its content. All of the sentiment concerning PvP validates every point I was trying to make recently in the warfields thread.</p></blockquote><p>Feel free to link to it, cross post, rant, rave, draw attention to and otherwise make a nuisance of me until they listen or delete me. I know that's what I'm doing. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> while picking people off and doing bgs on my newly exiled love toon.</p>

Drec
06-14-2010, 06:12 PM
<p><cite><a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want to thank the OP for this post, and I am happy to see a nearly unanimous positive response to its content. All of the sentiment concerning PvP validates every point I was trying to make recently in the warfields thread.</p><p>Its obvious that the majority of long term subscribers prefer old school PvP to the way it is now, myself included. The key terms that make EQ2 PvP what it should be are:</p><p>1. Risk/Reward</p><p>2. Predator/prey environment</p><p>3. Sense of anxiety and fear of the unknown</p><p>Battlegrounds and Warfields offer none of this.</p></blockquote><p>Dev's... are you reading this stuff? Pay attention cause this is what will save PvP.</p><p>To the OP.. AWSOME post.. love it. Showed alot of heart and thought into it. [Removed for Content] near brought a tear to my eye reading it.</p><p>And yes I remember the good ole' days of pvp. I remember the hunting groups... the stealth assassins... the running rangers....  er  I uhh meant hunting rangers.</p><p>I wasn't the end all be all of PvP back when titles could be lost but I did reach Dreadnaught back in the day. Had to EARN titles. The thrill of the hunt and some elusive evasion. Made our server fun. Now it's a joke. If I want to PvP I have to settle for BG's and even then it's not a whole lot of fun. Well... slaughtering bluebies can be fun but it loses it's spark after a few dozen BG's of repetitive bluebie skull smashing. Only to turn around and read their pathetic posts on how unfair it is.</p><p>Anyhow. Your prayers may fall upon deaf ears I'm afraid.</p><p>Anyone here remember the PvP servers of EQ1??  Sullon Zek, Rallos Zek, Tallon Zek...  THAT was PvP. I personally played on Sullon Zek... I remember dinging level 6 and crimson words sprang across my screen saying that I was now vulnerable to other players. Except for the Bazzare....  NO PLACE was safe from pvp. There was NO immunity anywhere. There were NO level PvP restrictions.. anyone of any level could attack anywhere. That was fun! Yeah it sucked when some bored level 70 Wizard came around your newbie zone but hey... that's where you called in your level 70 friend.</p><p>**Sigh.......   oh well back to Lagafen.</p><p>STICKY</p>

Heleptra
06-14-2010, 06:15 PM
<p>Lets keep this awesome post up as long as it takes guys,<3</p>

Sapphy
06-14-2010, 06:35 PM
<p>great thread! Revamping the pvp system would definitely be so kwl <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> although... at this point I guess on Vox the side imbalances/inactivity would prevent pvp activity even with a clean pvp system. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

Taldier
06-14-2010, 06:49 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>... and other comments in a similar vein ...</p><p>Umm ... there are indeed a handful of people who passionately want to go back to the "old ways", where the lazy scrubs were slaughtered, when assassins lurked at rez points ready to oneshot an unwary traveler, where squads of FP's congregated at choke points again to slaughter the lazy scrubs, etc. etc.</p><p>Unfortunately, EQ2 costs money to run each and every day and SOE isn't making EQ2 as a public service, they are doing it to, well, make money.  Each quarter the dev's need to generate revenue and by "generate revenue" that means new people coming to the game.  Without new people coming to the game, and enjoying that game, then "revenue" doesn't come in and SOE decided to put it's money elsewhere.</p><p>Those "lazy scrubs", those "crybabies", those "people who couldn't handle pvp back when it was hard" most unfortunately make up a large portion of the "generate revenue" equation.  Look back at the subscriber counts over the last few years -- those "lazy bluebie servers" are going *up* in population, the PvP servers are going down.  If you don't have enough "new revenue" then SOE will make a simple business decision to first merge servers (oh yeah, they *did* do that) and then simply pack up the whole mess and put money into things that *do* generate revenue like the bluebie servers.</p><p>I can appreciate that some people enjoy the "good old days", and if only there were new players who appreciated the subtleties of being ganked hundreds of times until they "learned to play" and could start getting new gear, who were willing to put aside families, friends, school, work and all other aspects of life to put in the 5+ hrs each day for years in PvP rather than the "casual 2-4 hr per week" then I'm sure that Olihin and the devs would gladly make PvP just as hard core as it used to be, maybe more so.</p><p>Tragically, unfortunately, with much regret, that isn't happening.  Olihin and company are trying mightly to keep PvP in the game without alienating those "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" who "only PvP 2-4hr every week" that "generate revenue" for the game that, ultimately, is a business for SOE.  I for one continue to appreciate the work that they are doing and hope that PvP will continue to become something to look forward to for the "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" out there rather than just another gauntlet to run on the way to content -- and the BG's and WF's do just that.</p><p>I appreciate the lost years of your lives spent amassing tons of ultra-expensive PvP gear that can now be obtained by sitting AFK on the docks in a few evenings, and recognize the personal sacrifices each of the hard core people made to become one-shot overseers. </p><p>It's a business.  Catering to the 95% of "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" is what pays the bills, and what ultimately will determine what Olihin can and can't do, period. </p><p>Sorry!</p></blockquote><p>I have to say that this argument that appears to drive soe's business practices of late is based on a faulty premise.  A good mmorpg game that charges a subscription fee does not need to generate new revenue.  An MMO by nature is a sandbox for players to interact in.  You dont need new revenue to continuously entertain a group of children with a sandbox.</p><p>The only reason for a game to require a constant massive influx of new subscribers is if the designers have made a series of such horrible decisions that the game is hemorrhaging players.</p><p>Catering to casual players creates a short term influx of cash.  Being casual however, these subscribers are not active enough to support the appearance of activity of the playerbase itself.  They are temporary customers because they will leave the game when something new catches their eye.  And they rely on more hardcore players to continue to play the game to support their gaming experience.</p><p>Soe seems to be of the opinion that they need to pump money into generating content, thus requiring the need for "bodies", for lack of any better term.  Literally trying to draw in the kind of players who do absolutely nothing for the server itself except for paying a subscription fee. </p><p>But what pvp content did soe generate for us back in kos and eof?  How could we have enjoyed ourselves without requiring their constant interference?  The content on a pvp server is the players themselves.  Worthless players generate worthless content that isnt worth playing.</p><p>Eventually the real players all leave, and the casual players all find themselves left with no content to play.  Do you think the casual players are going to stay here, or far more likely go play wow or some other trash game like it?</p><p>All the "soe mandated content" in the world isnt going to make up for a lack of other players worth interacting with.</p>

Earthshine
06-14-2010, 07:02 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I want to thank the OP for this post, and I am happy to see a nearly unanimous positive response to its content. All of the sentiment concerning PvP validates every point I was trying to make recently in the warfields thread.</p></blockquote><p>Feel free to link to it, cross post, rant, rave, draw attention to and otherwise make a nuisance of me until they listen or delete me. I know that's what I'm doing. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> while picking people off and doing bgs on my newly exiled love toon.</p></blockquote><p>I think cross posting is against forum rules and I would rather keep the thread alive that get it locked, but I do share your sentiment.</p><p>My arguement is that Warfields and Battlegrounds provide the wrong incentive in terms of what the PvP population desires.</p><p>The incentive is NOT getting gear- its the thrill of the hunt. The biggest difference between "then" and "now" is that we used to farm gear to PvP, now we farm PvP to get gear.</p>

Magnis
06-14-2010, 07:08 PM
<p>Ive played from day one, in naggy.  Yes, the state of pvp is nowhere in comparison to the past.  I really did cry to in the inside. </p><p>My prayers are with you naggy.</p>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 08:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think cross posting is against forum rules and I would rather keep the thread alive that get it locked, but I do share your sentiment.</p><p>My arguement is that Warfields and Battlegrounds provide the wrong incentive in terms of what the PvP population desires.</p><p>The incentive is NOT getting gear- its the thrill of the hunt. The biggest difference between "then" and "now" is that we used to farm gear to PvP, now we farm PvP to get gear.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't necessarily mean here, though here there's nothing wrong with mentioning another interesting conversation happening here. (I don't think?) My intention wasn't to be inflammatory, even though that was my intention. I was trying to describe the dire state of affairs with humor while still making the point things are bad, very bad, not good, no bueno.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to say that this argument that appears to drive soe's business practices of late is based on a faulty premise. The only reason for a game to require a constant massive influx of new subscribers is if the designers have made a series of such horrible decisions that the game is hemorrhaging players.</p><p>Catering to casual players creates a short term influx of cash.  Being casual however, these subscribers are not active enough to support the appearance of activity of the playerbase itself.  They are temporary customers because they will leave the game when something new catches their eye.  And they rely on more hardcore players to continue to play the game to support their gaming experience.</p><p><em>But what pvp content did soe generate for us back in kos and eof?  How could we have enjoyed ourselves without requiring their constant interference?  The content on a pvp server is the players themselves.  Worthless players generate worthless content that isnt worth playing.</em></p><p><em>Eventually the real players all leave, and the casual players all find themselves left with no content to play.  Do you think the casual players are going to stay here, or far more likely go play wow or some other trash game like it?</em></p><p><em>All the "soe mandated content" in the world isnt going to make up for a lack of other players worth interacting with.</em></p></blockquote><p>The first two statements are genuis and not afk overlord genius. For me, this server was the pioneer of PvP. It wasn't really the game mechanics that defined it. It was you guys, us. And, it is by those very players who defined your game that you should forge your game plan for re-invigorating not only our PvP game, but the bottom line for game generated revenue.</p><p>As to the second, they actually did a few things. Intentional or not, factors were set up to benefit the things we were doing.</p><p>The expansion was better planned so far as contested raid content went with multiple options across varied locations. There was a lot to do, a lot of space to roam, and a lot of raid content to hit. Go back an expansion before that, same thing. You've always had people doing the best they could with what they had but tthen we also had an environment that supported what we were doing.</p><p>Why didn't people do pile on a rock zerg fest then? The honest answer is - they did sometimes. You could always find a brawl in the sands. You would be in a fight sometimes and more come upon you, then more, then they call their friends, then more. You definitely saw fights for contested content, and a lot of them. Then you'd all stand around and bash for awhile.</p><p>What you didn't see was the day in and day out everybody in one zone standing there die, zerg, die, zerg, die zerg, oh um also dinging your writs while laying there dead, ding ding ding, ding another writ. Scribe another writ. Zerg die. Rinse repeat.</p><p>Why the difference? There is really no contested content to speak of. There are writs that you can get a stack of that reset for you every few minutes that ding when you die that feed you tokens that feed your gear that will make absolutely no difference to you as you continue sit there in a pile waiting for the next ding counting up your deaths.</p><p>I am a snob about my kill vs death ratio. I earned that (censored.)</p><p>There are tokens that you got fed that you can turn in for shiny things to feed that immediate must have it now to pay this subscription IGNORANT mentality that we have been dumbed down into. You can't use your gear to raid either so what are you going to do with it? Zerg more. Can't use your raid gear to PvP so what are you going to do? Zerg more.</p><p>I can give it to you in one short synopsis.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">THERE IS NOTHING ELSE TO DO.</span> That is the only choice you've been given, one way maze, rat.</p><p>There is nothing worth actually fighting for right now. Except your dignity as you try and weather it for a FIX.</p><p>As to your last comment ... good players are still here, lots of them. Old ones and new ones. Not to mention all the old ones who don't play at the moment but read this forum, or one anothers' facebooks, or emails. People will come back. I believe our server has a pretty wonderful population of diverse people and players that are worth the money they pay for it. Big pain in the (censored) complaining teen-angst whiners that some of us are. They are worth it too, seriously. We like killing them.</p>

Alazarz
06-14-2010, 08:58 PM
<p>Wow Bryony! Great post. I agree with every word. I would be glad to /feedback any or all of this ingame. Spoken so true. I hope to god soe reads this thread. A thread of this magnitude may actually make them fix some things. They needa do away with writs. And they needa bring back old fame system. Also bring back the avatars and add new contesteds ingame.</p><p>(NO OFFENSE BLUBIES) >>> on a kind of off subject.. Blues werent happy with our T8 pvp gear only obtainable via pvp servers, so they complained enough so that soe made all old world pvp items worthless in bgs and then brought them all back and placed them on a new vendor for everyone to have.. why can't you bring avatars back so some of us can have a shot at some of the still "OP" avatar lewt!?</p><p>I get the fact that at one ponit avatars were avalible to every server and the old T8 pvp gear wasn't.. but now the old pvp gear is avalile to everyone.. so, now that you guys are all about making thngs "even".. how about..idk.. make things .."even"?</p><p>*Bring back avatars</p><p>*Add new contesteds</p><p>*take writs out in open world pvp (body drops ftw)</p><p>*bring back old fame system</p><p>* Make the open world gear diffrent than the bg counter parts and make it extremley hard to aquire.</p><p>Thats just my 2 cents worth.. (overshadowed by bryonys massive / excellent post ofcourse) =P</p><p>regards,</p><p>xav</p>

zyllith
06-14-2010, 10:15 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>... and other comments in a similar vein ...</p><p>Sorry!</p></blockquote><p>I have to say that this argument that appears to drive soe's business practices of late is based on a faulty premise.  A good mmorpg game that charges a subscription fee does not need to generate new revenue.  An MMO by nature is a sandbox for players to interact in.  You dont need new revenue to continuously entertain a group of children with a sandbox.</p><p><em>Sorry, that's just plain wrong.  Suppose that in year 1 you get enough subscribers to balance the costs plus a little profit.  That's good, you are showing a profit, the investors let you run.  Year two rolls around and you need to replace hardware that broke over the last year, likely the utilities charge a little more the the electricity, your employees cost a little more, a whole bunch of costs get incrementally increased (for IT based companies like EQ2 that's usually 3-4% per year).  At the same time your subscriber base is getting smaller; some players die, some get laid off, some get married, some get different work hours, whatever.  There is some percentage that for whatever reason stop playing.  Unless you somehow get new users then you have a shrinking revenue base plus an increasing cost basis which leads to a negative return on investment ... not too good for the future!</em></p><p>The only reason for a game to require a constant massive influx of new subscribers is if the designers have made a series of such horrible decisions that the game is hemorrhaging players.</p><p><em>Again just plain wrong ... all MMO games require an influx of new players for the reasons listed above, it is the job of the designers to make the game a place where the new player feels a sense of accomplishment and a sense of forward progress.  This is done both by the designers offering new content (hence the expansions every six months) *AND* the existing players making the new player feel welcome.  That's why EQ2 is so group oriented -- people naturally bond into groups, and by encouraging grouping the new player has less incentive to leave the group, therefore continuing the revenue stream.  That is actually why the hardcore players are causing so much trouble for Olihin -- by establishing an atmosphere of predator/ prey which does *NOT* allow a new player either a sense of accomplishment or a sense of forward progress (ganked some solo quester lately, then prevented them for completing the quest they were on just because?) the hardcore people drive away the very people that the server population needs to become viable.  That point was driven very strongly home a few years ago as I mentioned, when the actions of just a few uber-gankers managed to derail a marketing push that could have resulted in a large influx of people into Nagafen -- it sure did on the Bluebie servers!  Again, it's not the outflux of players that is a concern so much as the lack of influx of new players.</em></p><p>Catering to casual players creates a short term influx of cash.  Being casual however, these subscribers are not active enough to support the appearance of activity of the playerbase itself.  They are temporary customers because they will leave the game when something new catches their eye.  And they rely on more hardcore players to continue to play the game to support their gaming experience.</p><p><em>Agreed, the temporary customers *will* move on if something else catches their eye which is why it's the job of both the developers to keep content interesting *AND* the job of the community to make the customer feel welcome.  Every time a newbie goes out and is mercilessly ganked, when they can't step foot out of immunity before getting whacked, when they are one-shotted from behind when exploring an area makes the game that much *LESS* interesting for them, and they will indeed move on!</em></p><p>Soe seems to be of the opinion that they need to pump money into generating content, thus requiring the need for "bodies", for lack of any better term.  Literally trying to draw in the kind of players who do absolutely nothing for the server itself except for paying a subscription fee. </p><p><em>But that by definition is the purpose of EQ2 as a "business", not as a "public service" .. the power company won't supply electricity for the servers without money, and unless the community contributes that money then the lights simply go off.  They absolutely need "bodies" to generate "revenue", that's again business 101!</em></p><p>But what pvp content did soe generate for us back in kos and eof?  How could we have enjoyed ourselves without requiring their constant interference?  The content on a pvp server is the players themselves.  Worthless players generate worthless content that isnt worth playing.</p><p><em>But the worthless players generating worthless content generate non-worthless revenue, and unless you would like a closed server with steadily increasing subscription fees that's just the way that a "business" works ... again, business 101 ...</em></p><p>Eventually the real players all leave, and the casual players all find themselves left with no content to play.  Do you think the casual players are going to stay here, or far more likely go play wow or some other trash game like it?</p><p><em>This is also completely wrong; the PvP servers have the exact same content as the PvE servers, just no PvP.  There are large population of people happy to play those servers, and more every day ... so there are definitely quite a few casual players quite happy EQ'ing without the angst of PvP ...</em></p><p>All the "soe mandated content" in the world isnt going to make up for a lack of other players worth interacting with.</p><p><em>Again, there are many more people happily interacting on PvE than on PvP, and more every day.  Likely in the past there was a discussion, "how do we get more people to play EQ2" and in that discussion it was mentioned that PvP seems to work for other competitors so someone decided to make a PvE server PvP and see what happened.  That experiment has been going on for a number of years and frankly it doesn't appear to be working out too well -- populations aren't going up in PvP (yet they are in PvE) and it is a time sink to maintain two codebases and the extra support staff to handle the extra PvP-specific stuff.  Again frankly, and as Venekor should have served as a wakeup call to, the days of Nag are going to be numbered unless the Nag starts filling with those lazy, casual, worthless players ...</em></p><p><em>Olihin is doing a very good job lately to try to reverse this trend by making it easier for a casual player to succeed in Nagafen rather than getting frustrated and quitting, and I commend him and the Dev's for that -- it's likely the last best good attempt before Nagafen gets folded into Vox ...</em></p></blockquote>

Bryony
06-14-2010, 10:38 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>... and other comments in a similar vein ...</p><p>Sorry!</p></blockquote><p><em>This is also completely wrong; the PvP servers have the exact same content as the PvE servers, just no PvP.  There are large population of people happy to play those servers, and more every day ... so there are definitely quite a few casual players quite happy EQ'ing without the angst of PvP ...</em></p><p>All the "soe mandated content" in the world isnt going to make up for a lack of other players worth interacting with.</p><p><em>Again, there are many more people happily interacting on PvE than on PvP, and more every day.  Likely in the past there was a discussion, "how do we get more people to play EQ2" and in that discussion it was mentioned that PvP seems to work for other competitors so someone decided to make a PvE server PvP and see what happened.  That experiment has been going on for a number of years and frankly it doesn't appear to be working out too well -- populations aren't going up in PvP (yet they are in PvE) and it is a time sink to maintain two codebases and the extra support staff to handle the extra PvP-specific stuff.  Again frankly, and as Venekor should have served as a wakeup call to, the days of Nag are going to be numbered unless the Nag starts filling with those lazy, casual, worthless players ...</em></p><p><em>Olihin is doing a very good job lately to try to reverse this trend by making it easier for a casual player to succeed in Nagafen rather than getting frustrated and quitting, and I commend him and the Dev's for that -- it's likely the last best good attempt before Nagafen gets folded into Vox ...</em></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I know I wrote a lot, but that post confused me.</p><p>A couple of comments. We are NOT talking about blue servers at all nor do we care about PvE content so far as blue servers go. We raid the same content you do but like our PvP servers and good for everyone who prefers blue, it ain't us.</p><p>I disagree I think the server lost its population due to the decay of PvP and nothing but fixing PvP is going to revive it, further there is a good, thriving server population to support this on Nagafen.</p><p>You can help and support casual and new players without destroying PvP mechanics. I do not think they have done a good job with PvP, I reiterate the current state of it makes me sick and it can be better for ALL casual and hardcore alike.</p><p>Let me refer to my earlier main points.</p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;"><strong>To sum up!! <span style="color: #ff6600;">1. Dear God fix the titles or give me the option not to show the stupid things.2. Oh Lord please burn writs and writ givers in a fire and never ever ever ever do anything like that again.3. Please come up with new contested content people care about to inspire raid PvP once again.4. Group v Group battle style BGs, raid and 1 v 1 duel options too, hey!</span></strong></span></span></p><p><span><span><span><span style="color: #ffffff;">None of that hurts the casual player, prohibits server growth, or hurts new people. In fact it inspires the very play we value and brings all of those interested souls who strayed back, in addition to new customers.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span><span><span><span style="color: #ffffff;">There are definite people who prefer PvE, like the poster it seems, but there are DEFINITELY a lot of us who do not and this game has enough room for both of us. Let's keep this about what it is about - fixing some broken PvP mechanics and restoring an atmosphere on Nagafen that promotes interest, competative PvP, and a solid fair reward system.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffffff;">They CAN and SHOULD fix some of this.</span></span></p>

Edgaard
06-14-2010, 11:03 PM
<p>group V group would be amazing in BG, just, straight up death match, no stupid relic or towers to hold. But, there also should be a way to invite other players from other servers to your duel, or even pre-arranged fights would be amazing. Thought how would sony ever be able to code this if they can't even code a mount that can be used in pvp only <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

zyllith
06-14-2010, 11:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know I wrote a lot, but that post confused me.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>Sorry about that, I'm bad about walls of text, occupational hazard .. </em></span></p><p>A couple of comments. We are NOT talking about blue servers at all nor do we care about PvE content so far as blue servers go. We raid the same content you do but like our PvP servers and good for everyone who prefers blue, it ain't us.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>Yep, agreed there -- Nagafen and Vox are bluebie PvE *plus* PvP ..</em></span></p><p>I disagree I think the server lost its population due to the decay of PvP and nothing but fixing PvP is going to revive it, further there is a good, thriving server population to support this on Nagafen.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>I also agree that a lot of the population loss here is due to the PvP changing over time, as you (and others) have mentioned; a lot of the older subscribers specifically rolled onto this server for the specific intention of PvP and with PvP changing as it has those subscribers are dropping off as they feel that SOE has "changed the rules" on them (for whatever reason)</em></span></p><p>You can help and support casual and new players without destroying PvP mechanics. I do not think they have done a good job with PvP, I reiterate the current state of it makes me sick and it can be better for ALL casual and hardcore alike.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>We disagree here a little; I agree that we can help support casual and new players without destroying PvP mechanics, we simply disagree as to what that support should be.  All that I've heard in the last few weeks, since GU56 rolled, is complaints about how "easy" it is for people, I haven't heard a single comment as to "how can we make things easy for the beginning PvP'er" and that's where I think the focus should be for the community -- otherwise, we will simply wither away until it's just not viable from a business case to keep a separate PvP server</em></span></p><p>Let me refer to my earlier main points.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span><span><strong>To sum up!! <span>1. Dear God fix the titles or give me the option not to show the stupid things.</span></strong></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span><span><span><em>Yep, agreed, bring back titles so that people can have a "reward" and give an option to not show them so that you can preen on the docks and "surprise" someone before they can run away.  I would further make the infamy system such that you can attack a title or above but any below are immune to attack -- so, a hunter could attack anything, a slayer could *only* attack hunter or above, and so on.  That gives people targets without becoming the gank-attack one-shotters that drives away the newbie population.  Casual PvP'ers, especially with decay, will never progress above hunter and so will be largely untouched by the dedicated PvP'ers</em></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000;"><span><span><span></span><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong><span>2. Oh Lord please burn writs and writ givers in a fire and never ever ever ever do anything like that again.</span></strong></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span><span><em>If they don't return to a fame-based system *with* what I suggest then I would agree; otherwise, writs give a reward system for PvP'ing and also allow for a currency exchange of sorts.  Note that I said *with the level immunity* fix, this will prevent the zerg-a-thon with the lowbies</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000;"><span><span><em></em><strong><span><span style="color: #ff6600;">3. Please come up with new contested content people care about to inspire raid PvP once again.</span></span></strong></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em><span><span><span><span>I think we have this (or the beginnings of it) with WF's and BG's -- it is contested content, with suitable rewards to draw in people it can inspire a kind of raid PvP</span></span></span></span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000;"><span><span><strong><span><span style="color: #ff6600;">4. Group v Group battle style BGs, raid and 1 v 1 duel options too, hey!</span></span></strong></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span><span><span><span>None of that hurts the casual player, prohibits server growth, or hurts new people. In fact it inspires the very play we value and brings all of those interested souls who strayed back, in addition to new customers.</span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span><span><span><span>There are definite people who prefer PvE, like the poster it seems, but there are DEFINITELY a lot of us who do not and this game has enough room for both of us. Let's keep this about what it is about - fixing some broken PvP mechanics and restoring an atmosphere on Nagafen that promotes interest, competative PvP, and a solid fair reward system.</span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>There is no question that I fall into the "casual PvP'er" category, until WF's I avoided it like the plague because I was always getting my MC geared toon whacked within a few seconds ... and I appreciate that others are more PvP-oriented.  I rolled on Nag and Vox with the intent of growing into the PvP system, and WF's definitely advanced that for me.  I also agree that we need to restore an atmosphere on Nagafen that promotes interesting, competitive PvP and a solid reward system *WITH* the knowlege that the PvP atmosphere needs to recognize the need to allow a new character to be something other than a walking victim -- and WF's allows this with the "rain of tokens" allowing characters to gear up and BG's allows toons to practice playing a toon against other characters without penalty.</em></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>Interesting anecdote: recall, in the past my toons would be rolled within seconds so "learn to play" just wasn't an option, just avoiding any kind of PvP.  WF's came along and I got some of the "rain of tokens" and bought PvP armor with, among other things, a ward of resistance and a reflection proc.  Now I still get toons running up and trying to one-shot me, but *<strong>surprise</strong>* when I don't drop from the flurry of one-shot button mashes they either turn tail and run *or* start to engage in a tactical match -- which has given me the opportunity to learn about stifles, roots, stuns, all the good things that are in good PvP.  Isn't this what we both want -- interesting, competitive PvP?  Make my experience the same of just a few hundred other casual PvP'ers and now we're starting to build a community again, yes?</em></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span><span>They CAN and SHOULD fix some of this.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>We agree again, but I think that the community has to do it's part to come up with more than just complaints about lowbie scrubs and rains of tokens and nerfed discord disks -- we need to come up with a way to not only keep PvP interesting but also a way to encourage new PvP players, even if that means realizing that gank squads and one-shot lurking assassins on griffin mounts and ambushing solo'ers out questing is not good in the long run for the server and needs to be kept away from the casual player until *they* are ready for it.  Otherwise, again, we end up with a dwindling population and it's just a matter of time before SOE makes a business decision that makes our rants and complaints meaningless.</em></span></p></blockquote>

PeaSy1
06-14-2010, 11:51 PM
Before fame change between my toons i roughly had ~30k pvp kills.... Since i think ive maybe got 2-4k.... Pvp is just not as fun as it used to be and sadly i still make toons in hopes of being a "pvp toon" and i just get burnt out on how pvp is now. Its basically come to i log in to raid and i log out.

Heleptra
06-15-2010, 03:35 AM
<p>Yeah. You know i have started eq2 again and again,and even deleted my charachters, But stil im coming back in hope that it will be playing like it used to. But after about 100-300 kills on my new toon i made, My heart is broken because i realise it booring and kinda usless to pvp. The best part now days is the questing,and getting aa and even tradeskilling, Just doing lore thingys<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Hartsia.</p><p>Owner of 6 wizards-Total of 25k kills</p>

Heleptra
06-15-2010, 03:39 AM
<p>Zylith says:<span ><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>I haven't heard a single comment as to "how can we make things easy for the beginning PvP'er"</em></span></span></p><p>This is a big problem´, The thing is u arent supposed to make pvp easy for beginners.</p><p>This is a pvp server not a carebare server. If u have it easy from start u have it easy to the end.</p><p>And u never learn to respect or love things in this game if everything u want just hands out to u for free or a little effort.</p>

Jeht
06-15-2010, 05:15 AM
<p>the thing that is really sad is that nothing is going to be changed..well nothing changed that will make things better..oh well this stuff is normal for us now =(</p>

zyllith
06-15-2010, 10:08 AM
<p><cite>Heleptra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Zylith says:<span><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>I haven't heard a single comment as to "how can we make things easy for the beginning PvP'er"</em></span></span></p><p>This is a big problem´, The thing is u arent supposed to make pvp easy for beginners.</p><p><em>And there is the fundamental disconnect between the community and the dev's (IMHO) ... because SOE is not building, not selling EQ2 as a hardcore predator/prey kill or be killed PvP EQ2, they are building and selling first and foremost a product that appeals to just those bluebie, lazy scrub, carebear casual PvP folks.  That's why there is so much time spent on expansions, why there never seems to be enough time for fixing PvP issues, why the dev's just never seem to "get it" ... it's not the dev's that don't "get it" it's the community.  SOE is a business, EQ2 is a business and the customer base has spoken quite loudly that there are more carebear casual lazy scrub players out there than there are hardcore, dedicated PvP'ers (otherwise, Nag population would be growing as fast as or faster than Bazaar) and *that* is the market that the SOE bosses, the ones writing the paychecks for the dev's, are telling the dev's to concentrate on.  </em></p><p>This is a pvp server not a carebare server. If u have it easy from start u have it easy to the end.</p><p>And u never learn to respect or love things in this game if everything u want just hands out to u for free or a little effort.</p><p><em>And if only more people felt that way and were willing to pay for that then I'm sure that the dev's would be all over the PvP mechanics, making it as hardcore and as searing as y'all ever saw ... but that's not reality.  The dev's are paid to provide an environment that is inviting to new players to first get them in, then is fun to play in once here.  If they can't do that then new players drop off, the population drops and the server gets closed.  Again, I'm terribly sorry that things just aren't working out for the hardcore PvP'ers out there and that SOE seems to not only ignore what they say but get even worse but the simply fact is that gank squads stalking lowbie questers and griefing them until they log off and come back the next day (if at all) just doesn't fit into the business model that SOE wants.</em></p><p><em>Put it another way -- suppose that SOE came out and said "OK, hardcore PvP server, we can do that ... but to compensate for the increased costs and the lack of new players coming in we need to increase the subscription cost to $106 per month and this will increase by about 8% each year" how many here would opt for that?  And to cover the people on the server who would *not* pay the increase the people left would need to pay the difference, how many more would still be in?  [This number, BTW, is not just a random one -- take the current subscription cost and a successful server like Bazaar and that gives potential revenue per server.  Divide by player population of both servers and you get revenue needed per player.  Yes, people have multiple toons on multiple servers but that doesn't matter when you're making a revenue presentation -- players per server, revenue per server, that's it]</em></p><p><em>I'm pretty sure that you get my point -- like it or not, it's the carebear bluebie casual players who keep the lights on for the hardcore predator/prey one-shotter lurking assassins and *that* is who the dev's are trying very hard to keep happy on PvP, *not* the other way around.  When you look at things that way then the actions of the dev's over the last few years make perfect sense -- they aren't trying to "fix PvP", they are trying to keep those lazy scrub bluebie easymode carebears around ... and should be appreciated for that, not /ragemode'ed ...</em></p><p><em>Just a thought ...</em></p></blockquote>

Ekelefer
06-15-2010, 11:53 AM
<p>Awesome post OP. You brought up a lot of great memories with your post and I agree with you a hundred percent. </p><p>I'm one of those old schoolers and I miss the old school very much. The fun and excitement of taking my SK Bischmulitlum (before SKs became obnoxiously equipped) cannot be trumped by any other experiences I've had since the end of 07 and today, and trust me I've been searching for some answer for real pvp. I tried WAR in hopes they'd bring some real competition to the table but that fizzled. Then I joined AION......LOL is all I have to say. I even tried some free MMOs out of desperation but now I am back at eq2 playing in t4 (I won't take Bisch to 90 until that non sense is fixed).</p><p>I really miss the true friendships and odd alliances forged out of a split-second PvP enviroment. I remember this one time I approached the CL spire to ride up to KOS and Oshef from DoM was awaiting the same ride. Me being a SK and him a solo guardian I knew he didn't stand a chance so I killed him anyway =P. When I finished he came back for the same ride I still waited on and we saluted one another and began waiting together. Very soon after a group of 3 or 4 Qeynosians prowling for targets show up as me and Oshef are informed the spires will activate in 1 minute. I /nod at Oshef as our common enemy's immunity ticks down and then we proceed to wipe them out in a timely enough manner to catch our ride up to KOS, where Oshef and his group destroyed me. That was the nature of it back then and I loved every moment of it.</p>

Balrok
06-15-2010, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><blockquote><p>Zylith says:<span><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em>I haven't heard a single comment as to "how can we make things <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>easy </strong></span>for the beginning PvP'er"</em></span></span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Zip it.  If they can't handle it from the begining, then they wouldn't be staying very long anyway.  They fail to have the right mindset to be successful on a PvP server.  When you make things easier for new players, they may stay a month or two longer.... but you kill the hardcore bread and butter of the server.  Then after a month or two the begninning players just quit anyway and your are left with nothing.  gg</p>

mikbla
06-15-2010, 12:55 PM
<p>Very well said. But from my experience SOE will do nothing about your post, because you are a pvp player and not pve.</p>

Tasmai
06-15-2010, 01:07 PM
<p><cite>mikbla wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Very well said. But from my experience SOE will do nothing about your post, because you are a pvp player and not pve.</p></blockquote><p>Which is the way it should be.</p>

mrsma
06-15-2010, 01:21 PM
<p><cite>Tasmai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>mikbla wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Very well said. But from my experience SOE will do nothing about your post, because you are a pvp player and not pve.</p></blockquote><p>Which is the way it should be.</p></blockquote><p>Why would a PVE player want to comment in a PVP forum?  Why would you, who plays PVE and has not posted in over two years, make their last three replies relate to PVP. You are obviously missing something in your boring bluebie bubble?</p><p>Troll off muppet and go play easymode.</p>

Rakah
06-15-2010, 02:46 PM
<p>Great post Bryony, I agree with everything you said!</p><p>PVP used to be so much fun. I used to look forward to logging in to pvp, now I almost never pvp. It's gotten to the point where it's boring and pointless. The BGs were pretty fun when they came out, but the novelty of them has started to wear out too. Group vs Group bgs with no objective would be amazing!!!</p><p>I keep logging in hoping one day maybe things will change, and pvp won't suck anymore. Sadly, I'm not sure we will ever see that day <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Crashn
06-15-2010, 03:34 PM
<p>I just recently started playing pvp again. I was on a blue server for many years. I first started playing Everquest 2 from almost launch. I have had stints where i played pvp. My 2 favorite classes are SK and Brigand...My first toon was an SK, so i have played though the suck. Anyway before i get off topic. </p><p>I know i haven't been around forever but i know that PVP has changed, my roommate has been on Naggy forever and when he told me that titles only go away when you log out...thats like playing sports and not keeping score. If everyone wins then there is no winner just a bunch of losers with no clue why they are happy...bring the old way back.</p><p>My ideas for tokens are:</p><p>1. Don't make them Heirloom. I know the altaholics won't like it but it will help attract lower level people to play, there is nothing like getting destroyed by a green. </p><p>2. Make tokens body drop, and you can lose the tokens if you get killed even if then are in your bank. I don't see a risk vs reward in the game right now, sure you can lose plat but other then a noob how often does it happen with any large amount. I see lots of rewards no real risk.</p><p>I know i am new to the server again, but i came here because my blue server was boring and i wanted a thrill...</p><p>There are flaws in everything in life, even games, I never expect to see things the way i want them, but a nice happy middle would be great.</p>

Felleyes
06-15-2010, 03:46 PM
<p>All these guys who claim it “use to be about skill” probably played predators back in KOS. Predators were 10x more OP back then than SKs are today.</p><p>What they’re really begging for is less balance. They hate everscout now, at lease in the lower tiers, because the game now requires top-notch gear, a lot of AA, class experience and PvP know-how to win, even as a scout. They want to go back to easymode [Removed for Content] pwning caster in .5 and everyone else in 2 seconds.</p><p>See, back then, all the scouts on the PvP servers thought they very, very special and just so effing uber. Now, with much more balance among the classes (except for crusaders and healers), their scout e-peens went limp. </p><p>Honestly, in the early days of Naggy a group PvP fight use to be one team hoping their scout kills the other team’s scout before he can assassinates or decapitates (one-hit) your healer, kill all the casters in your group in 2 CAs and then burn down your tank, singlehandedly.</p><p>There are predators now who are nearly that dangerous but, back then, any scrub scout could pull it off. That’s what they miss and what they want to go back to --  everscout -- when the EQ2 was all about them.</p><p>Today’s game is much more balance and enjoyable for most classes, at least in lower tiers, than it ever was in the early days. I agree with adding a greater risk/award factor to the game but, for the love of god, please don’t listen to the noobs who just want their God-mode back, lol.</p><p>Personally, I applaud SOE for addressing the class imbalances as well as they have. We all know it’s far from perfect atm, but it isn’t anywhere nearly as screwed up as it was back in the “good old days.” This game's PvP was total trash if you didn’t play a scout class back then.</p><p>Oh, Neskonlith and Arieneth, LTP. :-p</p>

BlueEternal
06-15-2010, 04:05 PM
<p><cite>Felleyes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All these guys who claim it “use to be about skill” probably played predators back in KOS. Predators were 10x more OP back then than SKs are today.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Not even close. Show me one predator from the KOS-EOF era that could run into a x2 and survive for 3+ min</span></p><p>What they’re really begging for is less balance. They hate everscout now, at lease in the lower tiers, because the game now requires top-notch gear, a lot of AA, class experience and PvP know-how to win, even as a scout. They want to go back to easymode [Removed for Content] pwning caster in .5 and everyone else in 2 seconds.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The "top notch" gear is handed to people on a silver platter now. It takes no effort to acquire the gear or grind AA's. There were plenty of casters and priests destroying people in PVP during the KOS-EOF era. Stormin Normin anyone?</span></p><p>See, back then, all the scouts on the PvP servers thought they very, very special and just so effing uber. Now, with much more balance among the classes (except for crusaders and healers), their scout e-peens went limp. </p><p>Honestly, in the early days of Naggy a group PvP fight use to be one team hoping their scout kills the other team’s scout before he can assassinates or decapitates (one-hit) your healer, kill all the casters in your group in 2 CAs and then burn down your tank, singlehandedly.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It sounds like you have a grudge against assassins because I didnt know Brigands,Swashbucklers,Rangers, and Bards can decap </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p><p>There are predators now who are nearly that dangerous but, back then, any scrub scout could pull it off. That’s what they miss and what they want to go back to --  everscout -- when the EQ2 was all about them.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Because every person posting in this thread is a predator right? I would gladly take the old pvp system back rather than having a 30-45 minute click-fest and get bored halfway through due to how terrible the mechanics are now.</span></p><p>Today’s game is much more balance and enjoyable for most classes, at least in lower tiers, than it ever was in the early days. I agree with adding a greater risk/award factor to the game but, for the love of god, please don’t listen to the noobs who just want their God-mode back, lol.</p><p>Personally, I applaud SOE for addressing the class imbalances as well as they have. We all know it’s far from perfect atm, but it isn’t anywhere nearly as screwed up as it was back in the “good old days.” This game's PvP was total trash if you didn’t play a scout class back then.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You've clearly addressed your dislike for predators in this post but there are far greater class imbalances in the current Nagafen era than there were in the KOS-EOF era. SOE has taken the lazy way out and implemented terrible mechanics where damage is nerfed to the point where we might as well be slapping each other with cheese sandwiches. Like a previous poster said in this thread, PvP was in greater shape when there was no pvp developer and we were ignored. Atleast they left us alone for the most part and addressed the major issues instead of messing with the things that made our server so enjoyable for us. R.I.P EQ2 PVP</span></p></blockquote>

zyllith
06-15-2010, 04:39 PM
<p><cite>Felleyes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All these guys who claim it “use to be about skill” probably played predators back in KOS. Predators were 10x more OP back then than SKs are today.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I would agree; although there were likely a few players who engaged in the "good" kind of PvP, there were far more that would hang around Antonica and the docks one-shotting newbies to build fame -- and running away when there was any sort of resistance.  It's *amazing* the number of toons that have run up to me, done the one-shot button mash and (because of my PvP gear let's me survive that) run, run away if I'm not dead.  That's not skill, that's how big of a button you have to mash</span></p><p>Today’s game is much more balance and enjoyable for most classes, at least in lower tiers, than it ever was in the early days. I agree with adding a greater risk/award factor to the game but, for the love of god, please don’t listen to the noobs who just want their God-mode back, lol.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Also agreed: the dev's need to develop a reward system for PvP that does not *require* other players to participate, but gives them the opportunity if they so choose.  The reward system should be something that is not unbalancing (like uber-gear rewards) but provides for visible advancement for the players...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">So, combining a few good idea here:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">- Return to fame titles which could be turned on and off</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">- Removal of writs, return to token body drops.  These tokens, plus plat, plus status, could be used to purchase PvP items and gear</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">- Addition of title immunity at current rank or below, so that unranked people could only be attacked by other unranked, hunters could be attacked by hunters and below, etc.  That ensures that the new players aren't simply slaughtered by better geared people yet allows people pursuing a PvP path to make forward progress</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">- With title immunity, give a one-time-only reset of any title back down to Destroyer.  That would allow for all of the palyers who truly PvP for the fun of the fight and not simply a high K/D ratio an chance to re-engage a new raft of people yet allow the fame preeners to continue to relax on the docks for as long as they want.  Although the "destroyer who used to be an overseer" would be somewhat OP compared to other destroyers the standard level restrictions would still apply so it wouldn't *that* unbalancing, and would allow titles to begin to be earned from skill rather than from button mashing</span></p><p>Personally, I applaud SOE for addressing the class imbalances as well as they have. We all know it’s far from perfect atm, but it isn’t anywhere nearly as screwed up as it was back in the “good old days.” This game's PvP was total trash if you didn’t play a scout class back then.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I agree also, they have done quite a bit of good stuff since GU56 toward making PvP more of a fun process and less of a gauntlet to be endured.  I'm confident that we'll see the fruits of that next quarter when we can see the population counts ...</span></p><p>Oh, Neskonlith and Arieneth, LTP. :-p</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Personal comments should be left in chat, IMHO, or this thread will be locked down and all of our good discussion will disappear into the wind ...</span></p></blockquote>

BlueEternal
06-15-2010, 04:57 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">- Addition of title immunity at current rank or below, so that unranked people could only be attacked by other unranked, hunters could be attacked by hunters and below, etc.  That ensures that the new players aren't simply slaughtered by better geared people yet allows people pursuing a PvP path to make forward progress</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Im sorry but thats one of the worst ideas i've ever heard of. So a Overseer can be attacked by a slayer but a slayer can't be attacked by a Overseer?</p>

zyllith
06-15-2010, 05:07 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">- Addition of title immunity at current rank or below, so that unranked people could only be attacked by other unranked, hunters could be attacked by hunters and below, etc.  That ensures that the new players aren't simply slaughtered by better geared people yet allows people pursuing a PvP path to make forward progress</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Im sorry but thats one of the worst ideas i've ever heard of. So a Overseer can be attacked by a slayer but a slayer can't be attacked by a Overseer?</p></blockquote><p>Absolutely: a slayer attacking an overseer is a player who thinks his/her skill, gear, whatever is now sufficient that they want to attempt the challenge of taking on an overseer.  That is a skill-based conflict chosen by the player with a disadvantage, and can only help the slayer to improve the way they PvP.  This is what we all want, yes, players to develop into skilled LTP'ers?</p><p>An overseer attacking a slayer is simply an overseer wanting to add another "kill" to his/her column; there is no skill involved, nothing but a simple slaughter of another player.  It is done when the superior player wants to regardless of what the slayer may be doing, and does nothing to the slayer but to encourage them to play the game less and to stay away from PvP.  This is exactly what we do not all want, yes, a horde of PvP'ers sitting endlessly at the docks waiting in immunity for something to do?</p><p>I continue to advocate making PvP something that people can grow into, and that means protecting lower players from being token factories from players only interested in adding kills.  This idea achieves that.  I'm sure that there are lot's of other overseers around that would be more than happy to engage each other ...  and that would be skill vs skill ...</p>

BlueEternal
06-15-2010, 05:13 PM
<p>Its a shame titles dont represent skill in this game then huh?</p>

Kiara
06-15-2010, 05:19 PM
<p>I've cleaned up this thread a bit.</p><p>Please remember that calling each other names and otherwise attacking other posters is not acceptable.</p><p>Also, please don't discuss emulators of the game on these forums.  I'm sure you can understand why that's a no-no.</p><p>I'd really like to leave this thread open for discussion, so no more trolling and attacking please.</p>

zyllith
06-15-2010, 05:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its a shame titles dont represent skill in this game then huh?</p></blockquote><p>I agree completely, and they could and should!  Too many people discovered they could lock at 12 and harvest newbies in the caves to become overseers, though ... and then made such a cry when SOE turned *on* PvP XP to force them out of their comfortable spot and then an even bigger howl when fame decay started to eat away at those titles ...</p><p>With title immunity, though, and a return to fame then a title really *could* mean something, and that would be an excellent reward!</p>

Neskonlith
06-15-2010, 05:29 PM
<p><cite>Felleyes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Predators were 10x more OP back then than SKs are today.</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/fulltrollo2.jpg" width="210" height="178" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You went full troll.  Never go full troll.</span></p>

BlueEternal
06-15-2010, 05:46 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its a shame titles dont represent skill in this game then huh?</p></blockquote><p>I agree completely, and they could and should!  Too many people discovered they could lock at 12 and harvest newbies in the caves to become overseers, though ... and then made such a cry when SOE turned *on* PvP XP to force them out of their comfortable spot and then an even bigger howl when fame decay started to eat away at those titles ...</p><p>With title immunity, though, and a return to fame then a title really *could* mean something, and that would be an excellent reward!</p></blockquote><p>At this point, I'm too afraid to suggest anything or agree with anything that would be "new" for this server. Anything and everything they've tried has failed. Just bring the old system back and we're set!</p>

Prestissimo
06-15-2010, 05:47 PM
<p>Being a PVE player, I play the game to experience the content and to fight the mobs and scripts and do the instances and what not. I'm not a fan of PVP at all but that is 99% because of the mentality and behavior that is garunteed to be associated with pvping (the like that you see in games like D2). That being said;</p><p>I don't hate on people because of how they chose to play. If I disagree with the nature of it, I avoid it and do something I enjoy. When BGs came out, it gave me a taste of just how borked the pvp system really is balance wise. I'm sticking with the BGs though because it is fun when you aren't in a completely hopeless and unbalanced match and because sadly grouping on the pve servers anymore durring my play time is pretty much pug with newbs fresh off the boat and 6-8 levels below the content if they even have the expansion or if you can even find 5 other people or you play something else.</p><p>This game is dying fast on every level. The main reason that it is dying is 100% because of dumbing the game down to the point where literally anyone and their hamster can get anything coupled with shoddy mechanics and half functioning content. I'm fairly certain every player would agree that getting small amounts of content that work fantasticly is better than getting tons of content that barely works if it works at all and remains that way for good due to lack of resources available to fix all/majority of the said content's problems.</p><p>Now for the meat and potatoes of my post. Even the PVE servers can see that the PVP system needs some serious help, and we don't even see the lag issues, the writ system, the title system, or the open pvp system, and are experiencing pvp through a watered down version called the BGs. When even the PVE'rs can see there is a problem just with that little available to us, it's an epidemic.</p>

Beagest
06-15-2010, 06:47 PM
<p>If there's one post the devs listen too please make it this one.</p><p>BRING BACK THE OLD FAME SYSTEM</p><p>BRING BACK AVATARS</p><p>FIX SERVER LAG</p><p>Then this will hands down be the funnest game on the market!</p>

Rotate
06-15-2010, 06:58 PM
<p>problems with open pvp =  sever performance & quick travel system.</p><p>These are two main reasons u dont see raids fighting much anymore. Over the years sever preformance has gotten worse..  more reactives.. more procs.. more stats to calculate w/e.</p><p>Putting tokens on bodys helps non.. i was a fan of it back in kos.. but not every class  can solo =p. Writs are fine.. pvp is easy to get and that wont change.. becuse we now have battlegrounds and they arnt going anywhere. ITs the only lag free pvp we have atm =p.</p><p>I agree it be nice to bring back the title system. Or some kinda negative long term effect for dynig over and over.. and positive effect for  wining over and over.</p><p>There might be little to much damage reduction in pvp atm..  maybe its the mitigation changes.. allowing every class to get almost same mit in pvp as the tanks...</p><p>But there is still some open pvp.. Go into CL when the warfeilds arnt up.. there is usualy like 10 q's and 10 fps or so fighting..  at any time of the day.. usualy.   its fun =p.     Once the WF's go up u might as welll leave tho.. zone laggs out so bad =p.</p><p>I dont wanna see old pvp system back.. PVP gear is good.. without it peeps that raid would just slaughter the none raiders.. and winning all the time.. = no challenge sooo = no fun. We have bgs.  now and they can be fun they just need more work =p.</p><p>For our sever just remove the quick travle stufff and fix the severs and u will see more pvp around all t9 zones.</p><p>p.s oh ya.. and remove all the [Removed for Content] imunity spots.. makes no sense.. you should only be imunne if u just died.. or u evaced..  if u leave ur city.. no matter where u go u should be attackable.. [Removed for Content] is with soo many [Removed for Content] imunity spots everywhere..</p>

Bryony
06-15-2010, 07:05 PM
<p>I don't have long to post now because raids shortly, but I have a couple things to say and a couple responses to previous comments.</p><p>First, once I do have a minute I will go through this thread and pull out all of your suggestions for fixes, changes, needed things and apend them to my original post. I will continue to do so as long as you post them, when I can. Please, please do this. We need it and I don't mind keeping up with it if you really want things to change like I do.</p><p>Comments inc ...</p><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've cleaned up this thread a bit.</p><p>Please remember that calling each other names and otherwise attacking other posters is not acceptable.</p><p>Also, please don't discuss emulators of the game on these forums.  I'm sure you can understand why that's a no-no.</p><p>I'd really like to leave this thread open for discussion, so no more trolling and attacking please.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you!!</p><p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Being a PVE player, I play the game to experience the content and to fight the mobs and scripts and do the instances and what not. I'm not a fan of PVP at all but that is 99% because of the mentality and behavior that is garunteed to be associated with pvping (the like that you see in games like D2). That being said;</p><p>When BGs came out, it gave me a taste of just how borked the pvp system really is balance wise.</p><p>This game is dying fast on every level. The main reason that it is dying is 100% because of dumbing the game down to the point where literally anyone and their hamster can get anything coupled with shoddy mechanics and half functioning content. I'm fairly certain every player would agree that getting small amounts of content that work fantasticly is better than getting tons of content that barely works if it works at all and remains that way for good due to lack of resources available to fix all/majority of the said content's problems.</p><p>Even the PVE servers can see that the PVP system needs some serious help, and we don't even see the lag issues, the writ system, the title system, or the open pvp system, and are experiencing pvp through a watered down version called the BGs. <strong><span style="font-size: medium;">When even the PVE'rs can see there is a problem just with that little available to us, it's an epidemic.</span></strong></p></blockquote><p>God bless you Sir. Thank you for your post. I have experienced teen angst mentalities on both blue and pvp. I was on AB raiding prior to PvP. I do agree that the competativeness, and for some, the need to '#$% talk' is blown up on PvP due to the personal nature of battle. For me that was one of the draws. I am a competative person. I thrive on throwing myself up against those people. The only way I ever get any better, is by playing with people who are better than me. I love to raid and I love to PvP. I recognize there are issues with PvE content at the moment too. I believe all issues can be addressed.</p><p>@Zyllith who said so much I can't put it in a comment box. The main thing that stuck out to me is your defense for new players and making it supportive and easy for them. It isn't that I don't agree there needs to be cool stuff for newbies. They just aren't my issues. I also don't think this is the thread for a discussion of that issue. It may be related but it would be much better discussed in a thread devoted to that content.</p><p>I am an end game player and while I may have lower level alts, my personal issues with the game and mechanics are related to those of an advanced player and a PvP player. Also all of the other issues I have with the game are well covered by other people who say it way better than I can. I suck at math and we have advanced raid users who speak out frequently. PvP hasn't been discussed in the way it needed to be. I think people are angry and want change, but they also feel neglected and like it won't do any good to talk. I got tired of it to the point that I finally had to say something, even if it never does any good. It is those issues that I am discussing, and that I care about. I don't think any of the suggestions I made detract from a good new player experience at all. Rather, I think it brings back what got me as a player here, and kept me here.</p><p>Let's not forget that I WAS one of those PvP newbies who came from a blue server. I went out and got slaughtered. Over and over. Of course it was frustrating. I was even solo at that point. It was hard. I knew nothing. Those big twink meanie boys took pleasure in tea bagging me and laughing at me and it's probably true our server loves best through hate. Let me tell you something else though. It was magical. It was thrilling. It was a CHALLENGE. I learned to play on a team with people who kicked my butt on a regular basis up against an enemy who was doing everything they could to do the same to us. It was awesome and I never went back to blue. Not one time. I am no different than any other person who tries this video game. In fact I am even a minority considering I am a female. They got me and kept me. Fixing broken things doesn't hurt newbs.</p><p><cite>Felleyes wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All these guys who claim it “use to be about skill” probably played predators back in KOS. Predators were 10x more OP back then than SKs are today.</p><p>What they’re really begging for is less balance. They hate everscout now, at lease in the lower tiers, because the game now requires top-notch gear, a lot of AA, class experience and PvP know-how to win, even as a scout. They want to go back to easymode [Removed for Content] pwning caster in .5 and everyone else in 2 seconds.</p><p>See, back then, all the scouts on the PvP servers thought they very, very special and just so effing uber. Now, with much more balance among the classes (except for crusaders and healers), their scout e-peens went limp. </p><p>Honestly, in the early days of Naggy a group PvP fight use to be one team hoping their scout kills the other team’s scout before he can assassinates or decapitates (one-hit) your healer, kill all the casters in your group in 2 CAs and then burn down your tank, singlehandedly.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree. I played a multitude of classes, including mages. Some of the best players I know in PvP were mages and non scout classes. There were a lot of scouts, but not very many good ones. A necromancer turned conjuror at the end, a couple wardens, a guardian, an illusionist. More people who did play the classes you mentioned but we aren't talking about them.</p><p>Lower tiers are the only thing that's fun about PvP at the moment, so you are wrong there. And, PvP players have never been a fan of when one class gets buffed above all because it has someone at the helm of it giving it love. We have always wanted balance for all classes because it enforces what we love most - competition.</p><p>You obviously never did a lot of group PvP because those fights can go on forever. There is no one shotting going on generally. Ten minutes is a short fight and chances are other people from all sides will wander in while you are fighting to join the fray. Those battles can go on upwards of a half an hour, regularly.</p><p>As a scout and an MA I can also tell you my first target is generally not the other teams scout or healer. And, it really depends on the make up of the group we're going up against decided on the fly but that is a common mistake new players to PvP make thinking you need to kill those targets first.</p><p>Another common mistake is thinking you can run into a group fight and your decapitate is going to one shot anybody, and any scout who uses it at that point is also too new, or hasn't played enough, to know any better. It's like getting with a girl and OOPS going shot off two seconds in. You have to know how to use that mojo you've got there buddy.</p><p>And, if you think classes are balanced right now ... It's a mess, but again, that's another thread. This is about PvP!</p><p>@ Kiyah <3 <3 <3 I relate.</p><p>@ Exur. Well said Sir.</p><p>@ Dudoes. Same here.</p>

Bryony
06-15-2010, 07:09 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dont wanna see old pvp system back.. PVP gear is good.. without it peeps that raid would just slaughter the none raiders.. and winning all the time.. = no challenge sooo = no fun. We have bgs.  now and they can be fun they just need more work =p.</p></blockquote><p>One quick comment on Rotates post, most of which I agree with.</p><p>I DO want to keep PvP gear. I was kidding about PvE gear only. I firmly believe some people like to PvP and not raid at all and they should have access to great gear for their PvP. There has to be gear, I just don't like writs, pavlogs dog zerg mechanics, or the current title system.</p><p>When I say go back to the old days I don't mean early Naggy PvP. I'm referring to just prior to the insertion of writs. Though I would like to see some changes stay like the gear and things. I just think tokens should be body drops and no writs.</p><p>I also love BGs would just like to see more and new options and some adjustments to things to fix them.</p>

Arieneth
06-15-2010, 07:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>problems with open pvp =  sever performance & quick travel system.</p><p>These are two main reasons u dont see raids fighting much anymore. Over the years sever preformance has gotten worse..  more reactives.. more procs.. more stats to calculate w/e.</p><p>Putting tokens on bodys helps non.. i was a fan of it back in kos.. but not every class  can solo =p. Writs are fine.. pvp is easy to get and that wont change.. becuse we now have battlegrounds and they arnt going anywhere. ITs the only lag free pvp we have atm =p.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">tokens and writs need to be removed. status was the best system.</span></p><p>I agree it be nice to bring back the title system. Or some kinda negative long term effect for dynig over and over.. and positive effect for  wining over and over.</p><p>There might be little to much damage reduction in pvp atm..  maybe its the mitigation changes.. allowing every class to get almost same mit in pvp as the tanks...</p><p>But there is still some open pvp.. Go into CL when the warfeilds arnt up.. there is usualy like 10 q's and 10 fps or so fighting..  at any time of the day.. usualy.   its fun =p.     Once the WF's go up u might as welll leave tho.. zone laggs out so bad =p.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">holy $#[email protected] 10 people?!</span></p><p>I dont wanna see old pvp system back.. PVP gear is good.. without it peeps that raid would just slaughter the none raiders.. and winning all the time.. = no challenge sooo = no fun. We have bgs.  now and they can be fun they just need more work =p.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">this is why we want a T7 Classic server. back then it didn't matter if you have raid gear. the best raid gear you could get wasn't really all that good and smart players could win fights against those with raid gear. like i said, pvp gear moves the focus of pvp away from killing to only getting gear. </span></p><p>For our sever just remove the quick travle stufff and fix the severs and u will see more pvp around all t9 zones.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">agree...that garbage was ridiculous to ever put into a pvp server.</span></p><p>p.s oh ya.. and remove all the [Removed for Content] imunity spots.. makes no sense.. you should only be imunne if u just died.. or u evaced..  if u leave ur city.. no matter where u go u should be attackable.. [Removed for Content] is with soo many [Removed for Content] imunity spots everywhere..</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">mostly agree. immunity should never be permanent. even if you die it should be limited. same with evac.</span></p></blockquote>

zyllith
06-15-2010, 07:39 PM
<p>One of the problems with a reward system based on items that can themselves affect the game that they reward is that it inherently becomes an arms race -- my big gear can beat your big gear, so I'll get even bigger gear and then the cycle repeats.  That's ultimately a fruitless chase; a much better way is with something that does *not* natively unbalance the system like (say) titles!</p><p>Take a RL example: baseball.  Suppose that at the beginning of the season all the teams started out with standard equipment, but when one team won then it got better gear, say a better bat.  The next game that team played in they would already have an advantage over the other team (better bat) and so they win that game -- and get a faster baseball to pitch.  Next game they go in with the better bat and the faster baseball ... and so on, and so on.  Would there be very many people interested in watching that game?  Would the other teams even bother to compete?  Same thing with PvP; if the rewards are capable of influencing the next game then it's a simple arms race until one team so overpowers everyone else that they stand all alone on a field with an empty stadium.  Go back to baseball: as a team progresses it eventually wins the world series and for a brief period gets to call itself "king of baseball" ... and then next season it's back to everyone else, where they can start it all over again.  Doesn't this sound like a "title", even better a title which decays over time?</p><p>A better reward system is one that doesn't affect the underlying game: in sports it's the stanley cup, the world series, the indy 500, in golf it's the masters, in bicycling it's the tour de france, in soccer the world cup -- all of these very competitive sports with rankings, titles and achievements -- but ones that don't affect the underlying play.  EQ2 is 'kinda going that way with the achievements thing, it needs to be better fleshed out to be used for PvP but the goal is the same -- a reward that is valuable yet doesn't undermine the gameplay.</p><p>I can appreciate there are those who enjoy the thrill of being hunted, of managing to escape with one's life, etc. etc. but let's be realistic -- those days are gone.  As long as Nagafen is being run as a business, one that needs to show growth, then the play environment needs to be oriented toward that and no matter how much screaming is done about the death of the old ways the hard, inescapable fact is that most people these days, most new people, don't want to through go through the "old ways".  We know that from the misfire that happened a few years ago with the T1 level lockers decimating a very good SOE marketing push.  We as a community need to sit back and smell the coffee -- Venekor was merged, BG's allow for a much smaller PvP world that can be shared across PvE server ... if it was me, I would surmise that SOE is getting closer to the day they say "y'know, two codebases is a big hassle and we already have BG's, let's just fold Nagafen and if people want PvP they can do the BG" and that will be all they wrote.</p><p>We as a community need to realize it's a simple numbers game: if Nag populations increase then it goes one way, if they decrease then it goes another.  I think WF's is a good step in that direction, and hope that it brings in the new players Nag needs to remain viable -- otherwise, there might be a new title ... "of Nagafen" to go with my "of Venekor" one ...</p>

Neskonlith
06-15-2010, 08:05 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Next game they go in with the better bat and the faster baseball ... and so on, and so on.  Would there be very many people interested in watching that game?  Would the other teams even bother to compete?  Same thing with PvP; if the rewards are capable of influencing the next game then it's a simple arms race <span style="color: #ff00ff;">until one team so overpowers everyone else that they stand all alone on a field with an empty stadium.</span> </p><p>A better reward system is one that doesn't affect the underlying game: in sports it's the stanley cup, the world series, the indy 500, in golf it's the masters, in bicycling it's the tour de france, in soccer the world cup -- all of these very competitive sports with rankings, titles and achievements -- but ones that don't affect the underlying play. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The easier way to "increase" pvp is for the overpowered team with higher numbers to start demanding removal of immunity areas and fast-travel options to force the undergeared and outnumbered side to "fight".</span></p>

zyllith
06-15-2010, 08:15 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The easier way to "increase" pvp is for the overpowered team with higher numbers to start demanding removal of immunity areas and fast-travel options to force the undergeared and outnumbered side to "fight".</span></p></blockquote><p>That's not practical -- nobody is going to willingly run up to be slaughtered ... just look at all of the peeps complaining about they "grey leechers" in WF's, where they can't get in a "fair fight" without being whacked within minutes of showing up.  They are in the exact same position -- with 30+ greys attacking them at once they are undergeared and outnumbered and die without a chance to "fairly fight" and complain mightily about how unfair this is.  Why don't they enjoy running into the 30+ greys and count the seconds before they collapse in a heap on the turf?  Simple: nobody enjoys getting defeated without possibility of winning, be it in baseball or in PvP and that's why the 90's howl at the greys and why "forcing" the undergeared and outnumbered to "fight" just won't work ... after all, why not simply zone all of the 90 FP's in the game to the WF when it fires and "force" them to fight, too?</p>

Neskonlith
06-15-2010, 08:33 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Simple: nobody enjoys getting defeated without possibility of winning, be it in baseball or in PvP and that's why the 90's howl at the greys and why "forcing" the undergeared and outnumbered to "fight" just won't work ... <span style="color: #ff00ff;">after all, why not simply zone all of the 90 FP's in the game to the WF when it fires and "force" them to fight, too</span>?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The server can barely handle a small amount of open-pvp as it is.  That being said, SOE also implements open-pvp rules which reward exploiters and punishes honesty.  Consider:</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">1) low population caps per instance prevent honest players from attending active Warfails, unless they make an effort to bypass SOE-set access restrictions via g****ing and f*** cheats.  This ensures those players willing to break the rules get the most rewards.  Hooray for exploits!</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">2) the repaired multi-writ cheats allowed exploiters to gear up insanely fast per kills, leaving honest players abiding by rules like suckers and struggling to gear up against fully-geared opponents.  This meant that undergeared players who had a window of opportunity to succeed via determination in open-pvp now lose out against hordes of over-geared enemies.  Undergeared players have no chance against the over-geared, so they are now essentially forced to try to leech writ updates in order to get gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">All in all, not seeing a lot of upside for either honest gameplay or widespread open-pvp these days, since the spoils of victory have been subverted by those willing to break the rules to win at any cost through the lag lag lag laggity lag.</span></p>

zyllith
06-15-2010, 08:49 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> The server can barely handle a small amount of open-pvp as it is.  That being said, SOE also implements open-pvp rules which reward exploiters and punishes honesty.  Consider:</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">1) low population caps per instance prevent honest players from attending active Warfails, unless they make an effort to bypass SOE-set access restrictions via g****ing and f*** cheats.  This ensures those players willing to break the rules get the most rewards.  Hooray for exploits!</span></p><p style="padding-left: 30px;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">2) the repaired multi-writ cheats allowed exploiters to gear up insanely fast per kills, leaving honest players abiding by rules like suckers and struggling to gear up against fully-geared opponents.  This meant that undergeared players who had a window of opportunity to succeed via determination in open-pvp now lose out against hordes of over-geared enemies.  Undergeared players have no chance against the over-geared, so they are now essentially forced to try to leech writ updates in order to get gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">All in all, not seeing a lot of upside for either honest gameplay or widespread open-pvp these days, since the spoils of victory have been subverted by those willing to break the rules to win at any cost through the lag lag lag laggity lag.</span></p></blockquote><p>Quite correct, but there are actually two issues you mention here: exploits and population problems (lag, crashes). </p><p>Lag and crashes I think can be fixed with a combination of tier-based WF's with lot's of rapidly repopping trash mobs, synchronized WF events *and* randomly placing groups/ people into a fixed number of instances: as I mentioned in a previous thread, create five CL instances at the WF time and people zoning in are placed in a random (or pseudo-random, if you want to get a balance of Q vs FP) instance.  When people group and pull others into an instance then the *ENTIRE GROUP* is now moved to a random instance -- which again allows for a better balancing of populations</p><p>Exploits are a natural function of an item-based reward system; after all, with 100,000 tokens you can buy anything but with a pure title and achievement-based reward system what now, the title of "Holder of 100,000 tokens" after your name?  Remove the tremendous advantage that buying game-altering gear with tokens gives you and exploits just aren't worth the trouble and they largely disappear.</p><p>Regarding overgeared/ undergeared, we are in agreement, it's a problem -- after the exploit, for example, now everyone has a disk thingie with makes it mandatory for a player to have -- and if you don't then you're just meat on the hoof ... we're back in the arms race game, and I think that the dev's realize that.  Hence the "shower of tokens" ... if everyone can afford to buy a disk then everyone *will* have a disc and we have parity again.  It's unfortunate that it unbalances the other parts of the game, but it's parity of a sort and hopefully SOE has learned from this lesson (it's the same one the US and Russia made in the 60's with puppet client states, so they can be forgiven) ... I could also make a case for strong enforcement being a strong deterrent, but that's for another thread ...</p>

Rotate
06-15-2010, 11:14 PM
<p>oh ya the latest exploit.. peeps buying the pvp disc off bgs.. and reselling it for 300 tokens to the discord guy.. lol.. atleast they patched out so u can sell them anymore today.. but i am sure lots stacks up on tokens chain selling them. =p</p>

Bryony
06-16-2010, 12:57 AM
<p>Sorry, disagree again. There were hardly ever crashes with open PvP. Nothing close to what there is now with BGs and Warfields. The lag and horrible crashes are new and not related to our type of PvP.</p>

KatrinaDeath
06-16-2010, 02:18 AM
<p>I don't know any other way to sum up my feelings towards Bryony other that saying... THIS</p><p>And as Arie said it... KoS had it's flaws but it was the best PvP I have ever had. I didn't mind EoF. By the time RoK came out I was a soloing Mystic instead of a grouping Necro. I started to feel the decline. TSO was the the first end for me. I came back for SF and it was barely acceptable. BG's sealed the deal for me.</p><p>I did participate in BG's from time to time but it was too structured for me. I had became so accustomed to soloing in the wee hours of the night that it had became my playstyle. And sadly solo PvPers rarely exist anymore. Or any openworlders really.</p><p>Right now my accts are set to expire in a few weeks.</p><p>But if I could go back to the KoS/EoF days I would in a heartbeat. People actually killed to kill. I played in Haven with the best people I have ever been guilded with. We had no PvP rewards. We didn't hide in instances.  Now back in the city life,  I would give up tokens and all the shiny PvP gear. With the gear that is out there now it's all so "cookie-cutter." What fun is it if every shaman on the server is wearing the exact same 7 piece set? How am I any different? I could break out any old RPG for the same effect.</p><p>I wish it had never came to this. I'm praying Sony does EQ3 right.</p>

Bryony
06-16-2010, 03:57 AM
<p>Not gonna lie I am having a ball doing BGs and running around killing people ala exile on Bryony in my broker bought / t8 God awful gear. I don't know why I ever thought I wanted to change her to an Assassin either. I missed this.</p><p>I know you have an alt you want to come murder people on.</p>

rvc
06-16-2010, 04:09 AM
<p>Bring back the old title system that was what made this game great, the emotional highs and lows that came with the old system.  I miss the days of shakeing at my keyboard while running in to engage in pvp, getting the adrenalin rush with the uncertainty of a win or a loss.  I miss the thrill of a win, and even the disapointment of a loss.  You had somthing really special in eq2 at one time it was the ability to consistenly supply people with real emotional ups and downs and thats what made this game great.</p><p>PvP as it is now is meh boring, really dont care if i die all day, shrug so dull so boring.</p><p>If you can make a game and create very real emotional responses in people, which is what you used to have, you have yourself a great game that will keep people coming back. </p>

Rufy
06-16-2010, 05:12 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I did participate in BG's from time to time but it was too structured for me. I had became so accustomed to soloing in the wee hours of the night that it had became my playstyle. And sadly solo PvPers rarely exist anymore. Or any openworlders really.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty much sums up how I feel about it as well. I think Bryony's (Shhh's) idea about one vs one BG set ups is cool but it will feel structured. I mean you can't even use the environment nor runspeed as an advantage. If BG worked as a PvP zone it would definetly be sweet though.</p><p>Hi Bryony, tis Rufy/Rufous from Venekor. Awesome post, agree with you completely.</p>

Schizophrenik
06-16-2010, 06:44 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Before fame change between my toons i roughly had ~30k pvp kills.... Since i think ive maybe got 2-4k.... Pvp is just not as fun as it used to be and sadly i still make toons in hopes of being a "pvp toon" and i just get burnt out on how pvp is now. Its basically come to i log in to raid and i log out.</blockquote><p>I started this game playing on a pve server about 5 months after release..... I created one of the first toons on nagafen when they started pvp. I remember the chasing people around from griffon post to griffon post.. the times when you could zone while having hate to avoid a death. I also remember the hight of PvP in this game which was KoS. I left PvP when RoK released and stayed in PvE untill the very end of TsO. Since I came back it has been nothing but a massive disappointment. I got sick of doing nothing but logging in for 5-6hrs a night 6 nights a week to raid. I came back to enjoy another aspect of this game... and all I have found is a compleat mess..... PvP in Eq2 will never be perfect or "balanced" but come on. It can atleast be entertaining, but, right now ... again all we have is a cluster F%$k of a mess.</p>

Jacquotte
06-16-2010, 07:05 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffff99;">Hi  some of you you probably know me as Bryony. Warning. Incoming Wall of Text. PvP (censored) and Fix it session. I'm sure some of this has been said before. I don't really post on the forums much so this is my version, here goes. Dear God... I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible. </span><span><span style="color: #ffff99;"><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">The total complete destruction of PvP in EQII makes me sick.</span></strong> I feel like after playing on PvP servers from the beginning, Blue before that, and EQI before that - I have put in my time and earned the right to say that. I grew up with you guys. Had my first crush on a boy here. Gained and lost friends here. Devoted countless hours and parts of my paychecks to this game. When you do that you aren't just playing a game, you are relying on a company. I've spent years of my life with you from personal level to paying customer. Other than a few lapses in my subscription for that annoying real life thing I am probably one of the people who played this video game way too much, and loved it.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;">Hoorah, moving on. Did I mention PvP, oh wait I mean the total lack of, complete death of PvP makes me sick? Oh right, I did. I'm not one of those people who complains a lot. I don't post on forums very often. Rather than post on flames, I decided this was a family issue. I mean, we all play for you, right? Your bottom line is product economics and our bottom line is having fun after whatever it is we do in our beautiful daily lives. Let me just put this out there. I love this game. I love this game in a screaming fangirl, signed poster in my room, fan faire dress up, hullabaloo kind of way. I believe that it is the best game of its class on the market. I love it. Always loved it. Have never been as disgruntled as I am right now, and as I became more and more passing somewhere in November 2007. (RoK.) Since then you have taken the PvP that I loved and mangled it into a Pavlov's dog repetitive sedate rock zerg mentality and system that I cannot stand. (I have other issues like our server's well earned name Lagafen, but I came here to address PvP. Which I would gladly do in any kind of lag, including the critical kind that affects game play that we have going on Naggy at the moment. Have had going for who knows how long now? Someone said it best the other night. Server performance is the newest 'fail condition' variable for raiding on Nagafen. I digress.) Dear God. Please fix PvP. I know you are there God. Even the Overlord wants you to fix PvP. Blue server people who talk about contested mobs might not want you to fix PvP, but then I laughed when they said it. You don't know what contested is until you've had to fight for it - in more than a crap, we showed up a minute after they did and have to wait in line kind of way. (No offense bluebies, I'm a roleplayer at heart, I just also happen to be a sociopathic insane person who likes to kill people. You wouldn't understand.) PvP is so bad right now, and on top of it server performance is so bad that people I never thought would quit PvP are talking about leaving for Blue Servers. Not to mention all the people who already left. I can't do it. For me, if there's no PvP anymore, and I can't raid for server issues there is no reason to play this game. I want to play this game. I'm still giving you my money. Please keep taking my money and consider the following .... I don't know how many of you guys have been around PvP for very long, but I know there's a lot of us who still play. Who remember what it was like when there were several PvP guilds on both servers and every single night you could go out solo, duo, trio, in a group and find other people doing the same thing. Out roaming all the zones, looking for a fight. And, fight they did. Groups that were tactically built, people who had learned how to play their classes and ENJOYED going up against other people and playing in a split second response environment based on what was coming at you. Nights where all sides came out to have a good time and duel. Epic raid battles between guilds who were PROUD that they not only raided well but kicked major (censored) in PvP. When was the last time there was anything like that? November 2007 and before. The last time you saw half the server turn out for a night of battles off the sands, or BB docks? Even before that. The last time you saw an actual PvP group, with an actual MA, fighting another actual PvP group over land? It faded and died in TSO. The worst thing that ever happened to this game for PvP (in my opinion) was writs. As soon as you created the zerg point, it was over. I stayed with you through that. Watching the decline and decay of competitive PvP. Still, there were a few people left, out doing it. Definitely still some solo and duo out in zones, and a few old school PvP groups who could not give up looking for a fight. RIP by the way, I miss you guys. The new title system chokes me. How you could not put in a solution for AFK OVERLORD before now escapes me. I cannot imagine why this doesn't hit everyone in the face like a huge /FACEPALM as the most ridiculous mechanic (among many). An example. You lost me at the beginning of TSO. I quit. I was disgusted with PvP, burned out on raiding all the time, and ready for a break. When I came back you'd changed the game to reflect said title mechanics. When I logged into Haven again there were all of these people standing around afk with huge titles. I had never seen so many Overseers. I thought wow a lot of people I never knew suddenly started to PvP... really well. Only to find out NO some genius (no offense genius) thought it would be a great idea to make a PVP TITLE unable to be lost in PVP, easily gained by zerging though, bonus. The only way you could lose your PVP title, an obvious and clear reflection of your skill in PvP, (not that they ever were but at least before you could lose the [Removed for Content] thing and they meant a little something) is by logging out!!! That's right!!! Your meaningless worthless PvP skill title will degrade when you log out to go to bed and the (censored) overlord staying logged in all night bogging down the server will keep his. Way to go genius.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;">At least before there were only the handful of (censored mules) that farmed their fame and I assure you everyone else on the server humiliated them for it. Respect was earned in PvP. It was its own control mechanism. You (censored) that one up. That killed me. I would like to see one of two things. The old semi-broken title system re-instated.<span style="color: #17e756;"> </span><span style="color: #ff6600;"><strong>Or, the option to hide the current completely worthless pvp title you make me wear every night.</strong></span> Everyone will agree, the system had flaws before, but it was a lot more right than what we have now. Olihin told me months ago there would be changes to it, and we don't have enough resources, and it takes coding, and other issues, and whatever. I can believe it with the launch of the current expansion and a lot of the internal staff changes. We're not asking you for miracles here. Just some attention and not the kind of attention you've been giving us. What we need here is a revival man. The final frontier in competitive PvP was the errant raid battle over an Avatar. (Can't help but slip this in - all but Insurrection who left for the then vacated Venekor to farm them without competition. Which also totally boggled my mind because some of those guys are old school PvP.) Anyway, back to the raiders who actually had balls to fight it out and enjoyed contested content in its true blessed form. Hard as (censored) to kill. A real achievement to down one. And oh the fights trying to do it. All gone. You officially killed ALL of the competitive group and raid PvP. Sure, you see remnants of old groups, and dogged oldies out killing the zerg, and running bgs, but is that PvP ...? I bet they don't think so. Now the only thing we've got is token farming, zone lagging, worthless title having, Pavlov's dogs on a rock zerg fest crap. Sure, if you want to let people use their twinked raid toons to farm tokens for all of their other toons, why not! I mean, if it's not easy, people don't want it right? (Can't imagine why we all loved this game before when it was harder ...)</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;">God, if you're still listening to me this far in, wtb real PvP. Open a server with the old ruleset and title system on it and see how many people transfer or roll there. Yeah Right, when pigs fly, but I'd go, in a heartbeat. I actually like Battlegrounds but could we could use a 6 v 6 deathmatch where he with the most kills, points, damage, i don't even know you work it out - wins. I mean I would give anything for a good group v group throw down right now. A raid v raid one like that wouldn't hurt either. A one on one duel type setting would also make me excited in a good way.Lag zone pile of people free for alls can be fun. It just can't be all there is. </span></span><span><span style="color: #ffff99;"><strong>To sum up!! <span style="color: #ff6600;">1. Dear God fix the titles or give me the option not to show the stupid things.2. Oh Lord please burn writs and writ givers in a fire and never ever ever ever do anything like that again.3. Please come up with new contested content people care about to inspire raid PvP once again.4. Group v Group battle style BGs, raid and 1 v 1 duel options too, hey!</span></strong> The one credit I will give is the bringing back of level locking. That at least got some banging going on again in lower tiers. Us end game PvP folks are thirsty though, boss. We don't know what to do with ourselves and we're waiting on you to fix it.</span></span></p><p><span><span style="color: #ffff99;">I understand the argument that if people wanted to play like that they'd be forming those groups and going out to PvP (and we should be [Removed for Content] it!) but people respond to the game that you create for them. You create mechanics that reward and enforce a certain play style and right now that's token zerging one zone pile up. You created lazy players who responded to your bell. Now that bell is all there is. War is fun - I like war. I'm just dying for a restoration of PvP on PvP servers. Call me crazy. To that end I exiled the Ranger this week. I was going to make her an assassin but then I got out there. I did a BG, I ran out to CL picking people off at War. I had a blast for the first time in a long time. No writ ding. Wearing (censored) broker gear because I lost my PvP set when I hit Haven. Hell, I hadn't even done her mythical conversion yet. (Sad side effect of changing mains to raid and not planning your current course of insanity ahead of time.) I don't care. I'm keeping her out there. I'll BG to get the gear and gear isn't everything. I've been doing fine. I'd rather have everyone as a target, be able to actually PvP, and pick off every single AFK Overlord and Pavlovs zerger out there. Sounds fun to me. I don't plan to stop raiding or playing or pvping on my city main - but I do plan on some after hours exiled mayhem at the expense of anyone I can find to kill. I was hoping some other crazy, sick of no PvP, old school bad [Removed for Content] would join me. Just sayin.  New school murder friendly bad [Removed for Content] would also be acceptable.  Must love PvP and making people rage. PS Please don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Obviously I'm being funny but I'm desperate here. I sure hope you are listening God. I don't pray much. I love you God, and I love this game. Amen. I will pray for a new server next week.</span></span></p></blockquote><p>beautiful post, i could not have said it better myself</p><p>as for an eq2classic kos glorydays server, i would never look back if this was introduced.. back then we had actual pvp instead of carebear risk vs reward and an actual titlesystem that reflected the cunning of the individual player, providing that extra edge to the game: adrenaline rush for us that cared</p>

Jacquotte
06-16-2010, 07:26 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Before fame change between my toons i roughly had ~30k pvp kills.... Since i think ive maybe got 2-4k.... Pvp is just not as fun as it used to be and sadly i still make toons in hopes of being a "pvp toon" and i just get burnt out on how pvp is now. Its basically come to i log in to raid and i log out.</blockquote><p>I started this game playing on a pve server about 5 months after release..... I created one of the first toons on nagafen when they started pvp. I remember the chasing people around from griffon post to griffon post.. the times when you could zone while having hate to avoid a death. I also remember the hight of PvP in this game which was KoS. I left PvP when RoK released and stayed in PvE untill the very end of TsO. Since I came back it has been nothing but a massive disappointment. I got sick of doing nothing but logging in for 5-6hrs a night 6 nights a week to raid. I came back to enjoy another aspect of this game... and all I have found is a compleat mess..... PvP in Eq2 will never be perfect or "balanced" but come on. It can atleast be entertaining, but, right now ... again all we have is a cluster F%$k of a mess.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 15px;">Quoted for Emphasis</span></p>

Bryony
06-16-2010, 09:17 AM
<p>Hi Rufy!! We miss you. Used to have some good times running around with you guys on Venny.</p><p>I really appreciate all of your responses you guys, good or bad. In case it wasn't obvious (because someone thought I was completely serious) I deliberately worded things to be over the top and funny, while still trying to get across the serious set of circumstances we want handled. I hope it didn't take away from the real points that needed making.</p><p>I sat on all that stuff for a long time, including all that time I quit, and I figured when I posted it would either get ignored, or flamed. I wasn't sure anybody even cared about PvP anymore from the top down. It's good to know you guys are out there. I haven't been messaged by so many people in a long time wanting to talk about PvP, saying hey man me too, or heard from so many old players who have quit but still read and expressed how much they wish it would get fixed and how much they'd love to come back if it did. I'm glad I posted it and even if we never get real PvP again you guys are my heros.</p><p>Ok man /emo off. There's only so much I can handle <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I really respect that game designers and devs are hit constantly with people demanding they fix things, complaining it's not right, or with the next new big idea. I'm sure after awhile it all sounds the same and it really doesn't add anything to your job but noise and irritation. I feel bad, but I also don't know any other way to say some of this stuff is really messed up and we'd like your attention. I hate to be that annoying person but somebody had to do it. I hope they still love me in the morning.</p>

Taamerlane
06-16-2010, 05:20 PM
<p>bump..  because if ANY thread ever deserved a bump..  THIS ONE DOES!</p><p>I have rarely posted on these forums.. i have to say though.. this thread makes me feel both very sad.. and a little happy.. to see so many people share the same feelings i have about the current state of pvp.</p>

macsux
06-16-2010, 05:47 PM
<p>Well I just don't see a reason to go out and pvp anymore. I'll say it bluntly but PVP dev has no frigging clue of what makes a game last long term. They completely took away any sense of achievement from pvping. I aquired all the gear that I would want in about a week of pvping with the new stupidly low prices and writs + warfields. Why would I go out and subject myself to a lagfest where it doesn't look anything like playing my character should be. For hardcore pvpers there's really nothing left. All good items have been given out for next to free or nurfed to uselessness (zarakon bracelet, pvp pad, shifting band). Took me 2 month of very active pvping to get zarakon bracelet which for it's uberness was rightly priced at 1500... Selling for 100 now. There's absolutely nothing that exists in current pvp environment that would be sustainable long term. As soon as people finish getting their pvp armor sets which I'm guessing within a month or so it will be all dead again. </p><p>Warfields are ridiculous. Not only you reward failure, but the new change actually makes it so it doesn't matter whether u win or lose - same reward. It's actually in best interest to lose so you get your reward faster. How backwards is that? </p><p>Original token system was actually good. It fell in line with current risk/reward system by balancing fame, amount of tokens you got, etc. Killing one guy with a group only yeilded one token. Killing a group by being solo yeilded awsome reward for the risk. Bah, this should be obvious to anyone who plays any games that are meant for mature audience. </p><p>I just want one question answered. With the current state of pvp, what's in it for hardcore pvpers since there are currently no long term goals. You gotta have goals otherwise it's just boring.</p>

Blambil
06-16-2010, 06:27 PM
<p>awesome post... one point stuck out at me....</p><p>Seems like to get decent PVP any more, one has to Exile... then to camp warfields... :p</p>

Roald
06-16-2010, 06:35 PM
<p>Very good post, and very sadly true.</p><p>It's sort of darkly funny if you think about it, most people would expect a product to improve over time, especially when developers have invested so much time on it. For a product to continually degrade over time in such circumstances is, well, perplexing to say the least!</p><p>I remember people saying PvP was starting to die years back. PvP was getting worse. I wasn't so sure. Then it got worse, and worse, and worse and worse. The more you tried to fix it, the worse it became.</p><p>All I can ask is, please take heed of the comments in this thread. I enjoy this game, please let me really enjoy it like I used to.</p>

Heleptra
06-16-2010, 07:15 PM
<p>Bumpin this thread from my heart! long live the good old days. I really hope this thread gets the attention it needs,</p><p>I will not give up<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Hartsia loves you all!</p>

ailen
06-16-2010, 07:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Very good post, and very sadly true.</p><p>It's sort of darkly funny if you think about it, most people would expect a product to improve over time, especially when developers have invested so much time on it. For a product to continually degrade over time in such circumstances is, well, perplexing to say the least!</p><p>I remember people saying PvP was starting to die years back. PvP was getting worse. I wasn't so sure. Then it got worse, and worse, and worse and worse. The more you tried to fix it, the worse it became.</p><p>All I can ask is, please take heed of the comments in this thread. I enjoy this game, please let me really enjoy it like I used to.</p></blockquote><p>its really hard for someone to take pride in someone else's work.  I'd venture to say the devs that spent all that time coming up with the ruleset are LONG gone.  Its like some other developer/product manager inhereted this thing and although it was really really well done by whoever invented it, the new ones either lack the intelligence or inventiveness to maintain or upgrade it.  The mechanics of this game have changed so much.... they haven't really thought about what those changes would do to the PVP portion.  OR they did, and just lacked the desire or dollars to fix it.</p>

Beagest
06-16-2010, 09:47 PM
<p>Has there been an official response to this thread?</p>

Edgaard
06-16-2010, 09:59 PM
<p>Nope !</p>

Beagest
06-16-2010, 10:26 PM
<p>Why am I not supprised.</p>

Cloakentuna
06-17-2010, 12:49 AM
<p>I made a post that hit pretty much the exact same points this one does in the beta boards for SF.  Olihin acknowledged it and said they were looking at fixing the problems for people, and they pretty much went the opposite way of what the post was leaning towards.</p>

Azbadon
06-17-2010, 04:12 AM
<p>When I opened the thread these weren't exactly the complaints that I expected. They are valid, however balance is the huge issue for me. I haven't been on these forums in years, but someone pointed me this thread, so please forgive me if no one has brought it up because it's the issue that's been beaten to death. I'm sure class discussion has run it's course, so I won't even start on that. My gripe is the new gear and stats.</p><p>This recent expansion has blown up everyones numbers. Pretty much everyone who has any T9 instance+ gear has 100% crit and other secondary stats for their class (double attack, that sort of thing). Toughness has gotten to the point where if you aren't a huge hitter you'll hardly hit at all. In addition, it seems everyone has permanently full power with all of the PVP gear power procs they are adding. No one ever dies in a group fight, because the power that keeps people alive doesn't run out. You can't forget all of the PVP lifetaps, wards, and damage resistance procs on all of the new gear, too.</p><p>I was recently in a 4v1 fight on the side of the four. A fighter, a scout, a melee priest and a heal spec'd priest (all 90 and decently geared) vs. a 90 fighter. The fight went on for about 14 minutes before the solo seemed to just give up and stop casting. He healed over 800,000 points of damage in the fourteen minutes. I don't mention class names because my issue is with the gear. No matter what class you are, no matter how good you are...when you survive a 4v1 for 15 minutes as a fighter, something is clearly out of whack. It seems every fight ends with one side getting bored now.  The fame system is only one of the issues that PVP faces here. I honestly feel (along with many others) that no one from the development team actually plays on Nagafen. It's really the only explanation.</p><p>I rolled on Venekor the day it opened. I've played through all of the rough spots. I've had a main nerfed and I've had a main strengthened via updates, but I played through it. I actually canceled my account two days ago. The way the game is now combined with the lack of any indication that SoE recognizes the flaws was enough to finally push me away. It's really unfortunate, the game was a lot of fun before they drove it into the ground.</p>

Heleptra
06-17-2010, 05:00 AM
<p><span ><p>When I opened the thread these weren't exactly the complaints that I expected. They are valid, however balance is the huge issue for me. I haven't been on these forums in years, but someone pointed me this thread, so please forgive me if no one has brought it up because it's the issue that's been beaten to death. I'm sure class discussion has run it's course, so I won't even start on that. My gripe is the new gear and stats.</p><p>This recent expansion has blown up everyones numbers. Pretty much everyone who has any T9 instance+ gear has 100% crit and other secondary stats for their class (double attack, that sort of thing). Toughness has gotten to the point where if you aren't a huge hitter you'll hardly hit at all. In addition, it seems everyone has permanently full power with all of the PVP gear power procs they are adding. No one ever dies in a group fight, because the power that keeps people alive doesn't run out. You can't forget all of the PVP lifetaps, wards, and damage resistance procs on all of the new gear, too.</p><p>I was recently in a 4v1 fight on the side of the four. A fighter, a scout, a melee priest and a heal spec'd priest (all 90 and decently geared) vs. a 90 fighter. The fight went on for about 14 minutes before the solo seemed to just give up and stop casting. He healed over 800,000 points of damage in the fourteen minutes. I don't mention class names because my issue is with the gear. No matter what class you are, no matter how good you are...when you survive a 4v1 for 15 minutes as a fighter, something is clearly out of whack. It seems every fight ends with one side getting bored now.  The fame system is only one of the issues that PVP faces here. I honestly feel (along with many others) that no one from the development team actually plays on Nagafen. It's really the only explanation.</p><p>I rolled on Venekor the day it opened. I've played through all of the rough spots. I've had a main nerfed, I've had a main strengthened via updates, but I played through it. I actually canceled my account two days ago. The way the game is now combined with the lack of any indication that SoE recognizes the flaws was enough to finally push me away. It's really unfortunate, the game was a lot of fun before they drove it into the ground.</p></span></p><ol><li><hr /></li></ol><p><span ><p>Wery well said<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And the armor isint only a issue on t9- Have u played the low lvls t2-t4? God almsost all fights endds up in power fights thanks to a lvl 15 piece that gives 200 ward! The stupid toughness and 200 ward and 10 % reflect they give out on a silver plate to low lvl pvpers is redicilous.</p><p>Hey im a pver also from my heart and whats the fun now in eq2 when ur gear is so op that u solo all nameds, u kill red mobs, every hq is soloable. Wheres the challange wheres the group plays. All the people do tons of easy aa runs and easy instances to get AA and get betther- But for what? when everything is alredy so easy-</p></span></p><p></p>

Bryony
06-17-2010, 05:21 AM
<p>I hope for an official response to this thread, and some attention to our valid needs. I posted it more to vent and get it out there, but I certainly hoped for a response from you guys and from the big guys. I was overwhelmed with the response from you guys and again <3 <3 <3. Please, keep it coming. I will have some time to list your suggestions in the next couple days.</p><p>As for the gear, wow that's a whole other prayer on my part. My biggest issue with it is the cookie cutter status of things now. I really used to enjoy being able to personalize my toons and build them differently. It's hard now, everyone is in the same gear, there's only one place to get it and (Ranger for example) the AA trees also kind of back it up with changes to crit and things. I want to stick to PvP mechanics here specifically but I might rage on that later if this gets some attention. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But, please keep posting all the things that are really killing you with PvP, or the lack of right now - and what you'd like to see that would satisfy you as a player and revive the game we all love.</p>

Jacquotte
06-17-2010, 08:42 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I hope for an official response to this thread, and some attention to our valid needs. I posted it more to vent and get it out there, but I certainly hoped for a response from you guys and from the big guys. I was overwhelmed with the response from you guys and again <3 <3 <3. Please, keep it coming. I will have some time to list your suggestions in the next couple days.</p><p>As for the gear, wow that's a whole other prayer on my part. My biggest issue with it is the cookie cutter status of things now. I really used to enjoy being able to personalize my toons and build them differently. It's hard now, everyone is in the same gear, there's only one place to get it and (Ranger for example) the AA trees also kind of back it up with changes to crit and things. I want to stick to PvP mechanics here specifically but I might rage on that later if this gets some attention. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>But, please keep posting all the things that are really killing you with PvP, or the lack of right now - and what you'd like to see that would satisfy you as a player and revive the game we all love.</p></blockquote><p>i certainly do agree with you, and i hope SOE hears are pleas</p><p>a similar idea has been posted before however in a different perspective</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=432053">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=432053</a></p>

Fripples
06-18-2010, 01:32 AM
<p><cite>Heleptra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Thats why this game is getting bored beause its too easy and no penaltys any where.</p><p>U CANT LOVE SOMETHING IF U CANT HATE.</p><p>U REALISE U MISS SOMETHING WHEN U LOST IT    "_"</p></blockquote><p>Tokens for failing in bgs...equal rewards for losing in wfs. I'm surprised we don't get writ updates when we die. The losses in pvp (coin and fame) were always the best part, the bit that made your heart start to race some when someone you knew could bloody your nose a little bit showed up in your sights. Now there's no losers...but without them there's no winners.</p>

Moptop_Nagaf
06-18-2010, 01:46 AM
<p> Posting for Ineedarez. His account(well, mine, really. I'm actually Ineedarez writing the post to be pasted for me since I cant post) doesn't have an active subscription.  I personally suggest everyone quits and fills out that survey honestly. Now I get that quitting may not seem that appealing, but you don't actually have to stay unsubscribed. Quitting will still give you until the end of your credited time is up. You can resubscribe after if you really want to, but I feel it's a safe bet those surveys will be read. If even 30-40 accounts were cancelled and the survey blamed PVP gear balance (or class balance, fame system, risk vs. reward, lag,...whatever) it would definately get noticed. I personally won't be resubscribing until a lot of positive change starts happening, but I understand actually quitting may not be everyone's fancy. Consider cancelling your next auto-payment and filling out that survey. Be honest with it! Don't just give 1s across the board, and don't just rate without written feedback. Let them know what you want changed!</p>

Prestissimo
06-18-2010, 09:39 AM
<p>We beta test for free, we put up with endless cycles of failure or corruption, we tollerate the things that suck, and we do it all while paying the same subscription. They know this. For that reason, I honestly believe they only half read those surveys when you quit.</p><p>Hell, back in the day, the "Customer Service Satisfaction Survey" that you randomly got after a petition had the "submit" button scripted as "on click: return (a 0 value and no fields)" followed by a "do nothing" on another embeded script that was supposed to update or save what you wrote or w/e, and the email that it had scripted as the submition target resulted in SOE's daemon rejecting the submission. That stuck around for a loooong time. Don't even know how many times I called them out on that and no one had anything to say about that shot in the pants.</p>

Greggthegrmreapr
06-18-2010, 10:43 AM
<p>They have added way to much into this game on the grounds of PvE that just destroys PvP.    Huge number of procs that do more damage than the attacks that procced them, Cookie cutter gear and quests (look at mythicals...  all had main stats that were mostly the same just tweaked for class, a proc buff, most had a clicky buff or always up buff, and the quests were basicly the same too.  talk to person, kill stuff, talk to person, kill stuff, talk to person, get epic, kill 3 raid mobs get myth.  Not original at all!)</p><p>The pvp aspect of the game leans so far in the favor of those that raid constantly that it leaves those without the time to raid on a regular basis in the dust.  PvP gear was supposed to bring them in line, but comparing the red raid adornments to the blue pvp adornments is just r e t a r d e d (really SOE?  That word is censored?).   They don't compare.</p><p>They really only seem to do what is best for them, what takes the least time and resources, and when it is really needed they make a sweeping change and try to distract us.</p><p>I love this game.  I've played since it launced in November 2004.  I came to PvP when it launched and loved it more.  I have quit a few times, but always came back.  I just hope that i have a good reason to come back when i return from Afghanistan next year.  At the rate they are going, I won't.</p>

max.power
06-18-2010, 11:44 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>(look at mythicals...  all had main stats that were mostly the same just tweaked for class, a proc buff, most had a clicky buff or always up buff, and the quests were basicly the same too.  <strong>talk to person, kill stuff, talk to person, kill stuff, talk to person, get epic, kill 3 raid mobs get myth.  Not original at all!</strong>)</p></blockquote><p>LOL wow... with that attitude every single quest is crap because it's always talking to someone, kill something, collect something, talk again and so on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Sorry man but the mythical questlines were one of the best quests the game has seen so far! They were unique for every class (did it for assassin, ranger, swashbuckler and bruiser), had a good story and reasonable things to do. If you just click through the dialogs, read everything from EQ2Wiki and copy/paste every waypoint - of course such quests can be summed up as "talk, kill, talk again". <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I know it's "in" to bash SOE whenever possible but picking the mythical questlines for that is over the top.</p>

Taldier
06-18-2010, 01:17 PM
<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hell, back in the day, the "Customer Service Satisfaction Survey" that you randomly got after a petition had the "submit" button scripted as "on click: return (a 0 value and no fields)" followed by a "do nothing" on another embeded script that was supposed to update or save what you wrote or w/e, and the email that it had scripted as the submition target resulted in SOE's daemon rejecting the submission. That stuck around for a loooong time. Don't even know how many times I called them out on that and no one had anything to say about that shot in the pants.</p></blockquote><p>lol</p>

Pinino-Lfg
06-18-2010, 03:19 PM
<p>man id drop a thousand dollars to a dev in real life for them to bring it back to tokens droping off people, no more writ givers, and old fame system to get put back in. no joke if money is what they want you can have it .. just put a price on how much you want for this to get looked at and changed....</p>

Bryony
06-18-2010, 04:16 PM
<p>I would kick in for that fund. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I did like the mythical quests. The conversion clicky quest disappointed me because after all of that work and effort to disco the Ranger mythical now it's just a simple thing anyone can do in a day. From something you were really excited to earn and finally get to meaningless. There was no next step up, only kind of a step down. I am glad to still have my mythical effects, and be able to use new weapons but I would like to see something cool and epic like that put in again.</p><p>That's another thread though!</p><p>In other news <candy in the van> is now open again in exile for anyone who wants to PvP.</p><p>I was really kind of taken aback by writs dropping down to a five minute refresh and how many you can hold at a time changing. I guess we forgot recent history when we made the refresh time longer to help with getting tokens way too fast. I've been raiding for weeks and still not gotten the two pieces of raid gear I would like. Do you think it takes an equal amount of time to get two really good pieces of PvP gear? I wonder if the times are equivalent in getting your raid set and your PvP set. What are people doing after they get their PvP sets? PvPing? Nope. Zerging the same spot to gear another toon. Then what are they doing with that gear? Oh yeah, still zerging the same spot. Please tell me how you can even call this PvP?</p>

Greggthegrmreapr
06-18-2010, 05:46 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>(look at mythicals...  all had main stats that were mostly the same just tweaked for class, a proc buff, most had a clicky buff or always up buff, and the quests were basicly the same too.  <strong>talk to person, kill stuff, talk to person, kill stuff, talk to person, get epic, kill 3 raid mobs get myth.  Not original at all!</strong>)</p></blockquote><p>LOL wow... with that attitude every single quest is crap because it's always talking to someone, kill something, collect something, talk again and so on <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Sorry man but the mythical questlines were one of the best quests the game has seen so far! They were unique for every class (did it for assassin, ranger, swashbuckler and bruiser), had a good story and reasonable things to do. If you just click through the dialogs, read everything from EQ2Wiki and copy/paste every waypoint - of course such quests can be summed up as "talk, kill, talk again". <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I know it's "in" to bash SOE whenever possible but picking the mythical questlines for that is over the top.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, each quest was unique per class, but if you look at the base elements of the quest they were generally the same.  that is what I am refering to.  Maybe I'm just an old school enthusiest, but I was hoping when they came out, for something like the Epic weapons in EQ1 where every quest WAS different.  Or how about AA...  How many classes get to add an AE auto attack chance with AA, just throw a different name on it. </p>

Jacquotte
06-19-2010, 05:21 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would kick in for that fund. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I did like the mythical quests. The conversion clicky quest disappointed me because after all of that work and effort to disco the Ranger mythical now it's just a simple thing anyone can do in a day. From something you were really excited to earn and finally get to meaningless. There was no next step up, only kind of a step down. I am glad to still have my mythical effects, and be able to use new weapons but I would like to see something cool and epic like that put in again.</p><p>That's another thread though!</p><p>In other news  is now open again in exile for anyone who wants to PvP.</p><p>I was really kind of taken aback by writs dropping down to a five minute refresh and how many you can hold at a time changing. I guess we forgot recent history when we made the refresh time longer to help with getting tokens way too fast. I've been raiding for weeks and still not gotten the two pieces of raid gear I would like. Do you think it takes an equal amount of time to get two really good pieces of PvP gear? I wonder if the times are equivalent in getting your raid set and your PvP set. What are people doing after they get their PvP sets? PvPing? Nope. Zerging the same spot to gear another toon. Then what are they doing with that gear? Oh yeah, still zerging the same spot. Please tell me how you can even call this PvP?</p></blockquote><p>it isn't pvp, that's the whole point..</p><p>i miss deranking people, i miss loosing fame and i miss the whole adrenaline rush about what used to be eq2pvp</p><p>i also miss pvp'ing for three months just to get a single piece of gear, at least then i could say i earned it</p>

Dh
06-19-2010, 10:44 AM
<p><cite>Pinino-Lfg wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>man id drop a thousand dollars to a dev in real life for them to bring it back to tokens droping off people, no more writ givers, and old fame system to get put back in. no joke if money is what they want you can have it .. just put a price on how much you want for this to get looked at and changed....</p></blockquote><p>You realize they get prolly get paid  at least thousand a week.  How many weeks did it take them to do... good luck you cannot afford it!</p>

Slow
06-19-2010, 01:02 PM
<p>I just dont understand how they could F this game up so bad in the past what? 2-3 years? it wasnt perfect then no, but after they first took away PVP LOCK they kept messing the game up and listening to people that played for 5 minutes. well okay they F ed up and they know it right? i hope.. but why the hell cant they admit it and change it back its not that dam hard, listen to the people ffs</p><p>prob eating donuts in their office while rolling sks</p>

Pinino-Lfg
06-19-2010, 01:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pinino-Lfg wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>man id drop a thousand dollars to a dev in real life for them to bring it back to tokens droping off people, no more writ givers, and old fame system to get put back in. no joke if money is what they want you can have it .. just put a price on how much you want for this to get looked at and changed....</p></blockquote><p>You realize they get prolly get paid  at least thousand a week.  How many weeks did it take them to do... good luck you cannot afford it!</p></blockquote><p>thats why they call it a pot?  everyone that wants a change throws in an amount ??  i dont presume to think i could afford to make change alone, im just asking for them to put a price on how much they want people to pay for them to make a change happen, i myself would drop a grand in the pot to make this happen...</p><p>ill pay whatever price u want me to pay a month to bring back token body drops getting rid of writs, bringing back the old fame system, and to fix nagafen lag and or provide better hardware.</p>

Slow
06-20-2010, 05:46 AM
Soe?

Shareana
06-20-2010, 12:11 PM
<p>Please keep in mind that due to the rating of this forum, we can not allow direct links to another forum that does not hold the same rating.  Thank you!</p>

Edgaard
06-20-2010, 04:25 PM
<p>huuuuuuh k</p>

Beagest
06-21-2010, 01:52 AM
<p>Have we had a constructive official response yet?</p>

Agent2k
06-21-2010, 08:43 PM
<p>Wow amazing post!  I absolutely love you!  But I lost all hopes of PvP ever returning to how thrilling it once was. </p><p>I remember seeing certain people and I would get the chills behind my computer screen.  I knew it would be an epic fight and there was no knowing who would get bragging rights.  Who would end up on a screenshot or a FRAPS.  Will I die and end up on the forums tommorow?  Who would lose the title that seemed so important.  One fight could mean so much.  Not whether or not that was the kill that would get me a new piece of gear. </p><p>I don't believe there is a way to bring Nagafen back from the rut it's currently in.  And I completely agree with you and Arie in the creation of a brand new PvP server.  One minus all the garbage that currently destroys player versus player.  I would be happy with that, more happy with what Arie suggests though, with KoS as the final xpac.  Just like when PvP came out.  I would join instantly.</p>

BlueEternal
06-21-2010, 09:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Have we had a constructive official response yet?</p></blockquote><p>WTB a response from someone atleast acknowledging they read this thread.</p>

Edgaard
06-21-2010, 10:17 PM
<p>wtb response from a dev and not a volounteer moderator~</p>

Joemomm
06-22-2010, 03:40 AM
<p>I will come to exile and fight with you! Got an SK powerlevel waiting for me? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" /> Just kidding. In all seriousness though, the OP did give me an increased desire....well, not increased since I never had one before reading it....it gave me a desire, yes, to roll a pvp toon to exile. I just wish I had more time in my life to give it the dedication that you inspire with your words Bryony. Perhaps my 3rd main will do just that.</p>

Duotang
06-22-2010, 10:48 AM
<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">Dear op,</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">Here's some food for thought;</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">a) Everquest 1&2 did not include netcode for character vs. character battle i.e. Player vs. Player a.k.a. PvP. To re-write the game code that includes PROPER PvP is a binary nightmare. They haven't got it right yet, and they never will. It's just the way the 1's and 0's align in this game.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">b) All MMO's, especially Everquest, are geared around B.F. Skinner's philosophy on behaviorism. This is why you willingly hand over your hard earned money for something that is broken. Scary part is, you always will until it's forced away from you.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">c) The dev's do the best they can with what they have to work with. It's was only in the middle of TSO that they were allocated enough funding to update their existing SQL servers to 64 bit. Rather than completely replace the existing hardware (which is what should have been done), they put on a band aid. SoE can not comprehend a user from 6 years ago using the same PC they built then to run the game now, yet they still use the same hardware on the backend that they so vehemently say is inadequate for client use.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">Me........I like the game. It passes my time when I would otherwise be reading a book, watching tv, or taking a nap. I don't personally have a problem with the server crashing every so often, or to cope with 10 second lag because there are too many people in a particular zone. I just do something else.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black; font-family: Verdana;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">It's an old game with an outdated game engine that has enough followers to warrant a small staff in very basic upkeep. That is the bottom line.</span></span></p>

Kiara
06-22-2010, 03:14 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>wtb response from a dev and not a volounteer moderator~</p></blockquote><p>Here's your response.  Please do not get this thread locked as it is valuable input and I'll be very put out if a bunch of people break the rules and force me to moderate this thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Jeht
06-22-2010, 03:30 PM
<p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>wtb response from a dev and not a volounteer moderator~</p></blockquote><p>Here's your response.  Please do not get this thread locked as it is valuable input and I'll be very put out if a bunch of people break the rules and force me to moderate this thread <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>a bunch of valuable input that will go nowhere because you and that other forum mod are the only ones saying anything</p>

BlueEternal
06-22-2010, 03:38 PM
<p>Regardless if this thread is locked right now or goes on for 22 pages, it won't matter. It was a great post Bryony, I had high hopes for maybe a little communication from Olihin or someone but I just don't see it happening anymore. We're all holding on for the small hope that PVP will return to that adrenaline filled rush but I guess its that small hope that keeps us playing this terrible pvp system. <3</p>

Kiara
06-22-2010, 03:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>wtb response from a dev and not a volounteer moderator~</p></blockquote><p>Here's your response.  Please do not get this thread locked as it is valuable input and I'll be very put out if a bunch of people break the rules and force me to moderate this thread <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>a bunch of valuable input that will go nowhere because you and that other forum mod are the only ones saying anything</p></blockquote><p>It doesn't require a response from anyone to be valuable input that goes somewhere.</p><p>Stuff on this forum gets read.  There simply isn't enough time in the day to respond to everything.  Someone would have to have nothing else assigned to them in order to respond to each and every post that gets made.  Devs need to be developing. </p><p>Just because there isn't a response from someone "important" here, doesn't mean that it isn't getting seen.</p><p>So again, please do not make me be the big bad on this one.  I can use it if it's locked, but I prefer that everyone have the opportunity to add their input in constructive ways. </p><p>Kkthx <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

PeaSy1
06-22-2010, 04:09 PM
<p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>wtb response from a dev and not a volounteer moderator~</p></blockquote><p>Here's your response.  Please do not get this thread locked as it is valuable input and I'll be very put out if a bunch of people break the rules and force me to moderate this thread <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>a bunch of valuable input that will go nowhere because you and that other forum mod are the only ones saying anything</p></blockquote><p>It doesn't require a response from anyone to be valuable input that goes somewhere.</p><p>Stuff on this forum gets read.  There simply isn't enough time in the day to respond to everything.  Someone would have to have nothing else assigned to them <strong>in order to respond to each and every post that gets made</strong>.  Devs need to be developing. </p><p>Just because there isn't a response from someone "important" here, doesn't mean that it isn't getting seen.</p><p>So again, please do not make me be the big bad on this one.  I can use it if it's locked, but I prefer that everyone have the opportunity to add their input in constructive ways. </p><p>Kkthx <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>this is actually not what people are looking for, the community is looking for a response to what countless threads that have been based on this topic</p><p>its the topic of how screwed up pvp has become to where people are begging to even get off this server cause dealing with how bad this server performs doesnt even have a positive cause the reason to be on this server has been thrown under a bus </p>

Joemomm
06-22-2010, 06:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana; color: black;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">Dear op,</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana; color: black;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">Here's some food for thought;</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana; color: black;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">a) Everquest 1&2 did not include netcode for character vs. character battle i.e. Player vs. Player a.k.a. PvP. To re-write the game code that includes PROPER PvP is a binary nightmare. They haven't got it right yet, and they never will. It's just the way the 1's and 0's align in this game.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana; color: black;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">b) All MMO's, especially Everquest, are geared around B.F. Skinner's philosophy on behaviorism. This is why you willingly hand over your hard earned money for something that is broken. Scary part is, you always will until it's forced away from you.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana; color: black;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">c) The dev's do the best they can with what they have to work with. It's was only in the middle of TSO that they were allocated enough funding to update their existing SQL servers to 64 bit. Rather than completely replace the existing hardware (which is what should have been done), they put on a band aid. SoE can not comprehend a user from 6 years ago using the same PC they built then to run the game now, yet they still use the same hardware on the backend that they so vehemently say is inadequate for client use.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana; color: #ff0000;"><span>Me........I like the game. It passes my time when I would otherwise be reading a book, watching tv, or taking a nap. I don't personally have a problem with the server crashing every so often, or to cope with 10 second lag because there are too many people in a particular zone. I just do something else.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Verdana; color: black;"><span style="color: #ffff99;">It's an old game with an outdated game engine that has enough followers to warrant a small staff in very basic upkeep. That is the bottom line.</span></span></p></blockquote><p>I agree! I kind of like when the game crashes to be honest. It forces me to do those things I keep putting aside to play....like my college research paper <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

Nemas Ravenor
06-22-2010, 09:53 PM
What's really dead isn't just PVP.... it is the game itself. There is no challenge to anything anymore. Intances in SF haven't ever been challenging and the gear not worth the time it takes to do them, the raid content, even on hard mode has been pretty much cleared and the PVP isssues are so well documented I won't bother commenting. It is time for Sony to go scorched Earth on this game. I'm talking real Biblical wrath of God type sh*t: Abraham killing Isaac, flood the entire planet, nail a guy to a hunk of wood and kill him because it's gotten that out of hand kind of stuff. Sony: Give us EQ3 and start over from scratch because this game has outlived itself.

Necroluvin
06-22-2010, 10:14 PM
<p><cite>Nemas Ravenor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>  Sony: Give us EQ3 and start over from scratch because this game has outlived itself.</blockquote><p>Forget Eq3 tbh, i dont think i will buy another SoE product for the simple fact that they kill there games over time. I just want Rift: Planes of telara....i hope Aerilak is doing a good job there! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p>

zyllith
06-23-2010, 01:26 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>wtb response from a dev and not a volounteer moderator~</p></blockquote><p>Here's your response.  Please do not get this thread locked as it is valuable input and I'll be very put out if a bunch of people break the rules and force me to moderate this thread <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>a bunch of valuable input that will go nowhere because you and that other forum mod are the only ones saying anything</p></blockquote><p>It doesn't require a response from anyone to be valuable input that goes somewhere.</p><p>Stuff on this forum gets read.  There simply isn't enough time in the day to respond to everything.  Someone would have to have nothing else assigned to them <strong>in order to respond to each and every post that gets made</strong>.  Devs need to be developing. </p><p>Just because there isn't a response from someone "important" here, doesn't mean that it isn't getting seen.</p><p>So again, please do not make me be the big bad on this one.  I can use it if it's locked, but I prefer that everyone have the opportunity to add their input in constructive ways. </p><p>Kkthx <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>this is actually not what people are looking for, the community is looking for a response to what countless threads that have been based on this topic</p><p>its the topic of how screwed up pvp has become to where people are begging to even get off this server cause dealing with how bad this server performs doesnt even have a positive cause the reason to be on this server has been thrown under a bus </p></blockquote><p>Yeesh.  OK, Kiara and the others are trying very hard to say this, maybe I can get through ...</p><p>There are two issues people are /ragemode'ing about: lag and PvP mechanics</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Lag</span> is being looked and and just as soon as the dev's have some fixes they will be hotfixing them in.  Will the fixes work? Likely not at first, likely will need to be done a bunch of times.  Think of having a sharp pain in your arm one morning: you go into the doctor and say "hey, my arm has a sharp pain when I move it like this".  Doctor says OK, first stop moving your arm like that and puts your arm into a sling [that's my suggestion of turning off all proc's, BTW].  Then the doctor runs some tests (which take time) and gives you a med to try for a few days to see if it works.  That's where we are at right this minute: the dev's are running some tests, gathering some data, and pretty soon will hotfix in a med for us to try.  Does the med work for your arm?  Maybe, probably not -- more tests, more meds.  That will happen here too: there will be a hotfix, likely some things will get better, some things will get *worse*!  Dev's will try some more things, more hotfixes, etc. just like the doctor will try more med's until your arm is fixed.  Fixing lag is (likely) going to be a multi-month process with dozens of hotfix reboots at 7:00a PST -- that's the nature of the problem, go read my lag thread.  Is this annoying?  Yes, but it's progress along the road and just like I tolerate men at work signs on the freeway working on the roads I can tolerate lot's of hotfixes to the servers.</p><p>/ragemode won't change this process, annoying the dev's and moderators won't speed up this process, that's just life.  I'm terribly sorry that this is interfering with the fundamental course of your life and is depriving some of you for the entire reason for your existence, possibly the only reason for your existence, but that's just the way things go sometime. If you want to help speed up this work, instead of vague "fix this now!" /ragemode's that do nothing to contribute to the solution how about posting real, concrete examples (with FRAPS, even better!) of lag with locations, dates, times, number and level of players, etc. so the dev's can work the problem.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">PvP Mechanics</span> is something that will never really be "fixed" because your nerf is someone else's OP, and the thing that you /ragemode about today was /ragemode'd about a few months ago.  Because it can never really be "fixed" all that you are doing is annoying the one dev who is assigned to work with PvP.  Watching from the outside, I have noticed that /ragemode posts are summarily ignored -- even if they make sense, they are ignored because if acted upon they would set a *very* bad precedent on the forums and that's not going to happen.  Posts that carefully summarize the problem, describing the bad effects and potential solution that show the poster has considered other class balance issues seem to be acted upon.</p><p>This should be a clue: /ragemode == ignored, carefully thought out == fixed in next GU ...</p><p>I agree with Kiara; although I disagree with several points of the OP and some of the replies, I do like the general tenor of the community expressing it's ideas with SOE that this thread has done and would really feel bad of a few [I cannot control my vocabulary] posters who feel that a 5 word /ragemode is going to do anything constructive poisoned this thread.  If I were SOE I would simply delete the account of a /ragemode poster on the spot, but SOE appears to be much nicer than that ...</p>

Heleptra
06-23-2010, 03:44 AM
<p>Hey guys be patient and think positive. Its 100% sure devs are reading this and they know the issues.</p><p>Trust me on this, They will fix this and they are taking this issue wery serious.</p><p>Please just dont write stupid flames and childish things on this post ok.</p><p>Hartsia.</p>

Brigh
06-23-2010, 04:53 AM
<p><cite>Nemas Ravenor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> It is time for Sony to go scorched Earth on this game. I'm talking real Biblical wrath of God type sh*t: Abraham killing Isaac, flood the entire planet, nail a guy to a hunk of wood and kill him because it's gotten that out of hand kind of stuff.  </blockquote><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0</a></p>

Jeht
06-23-2010, 07:33 AM
<p><cite>Heleptra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Hey guys be patient and think positive. Its 100% sure devs are reading this and they know the issues.</span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Trust me on this, They will fix this and they are taking this issue wery serious.</span></p><p>Please just dont write stupid flames and childish things on this post ok.</p><p>Hartsia.</p></blockquote><p>i hope this is sarcasm because that's what people always say when the pvp community has issues and..well we all know what ends up happening...</p>

BMonkeeus
06-23-2010, 08:57 AM
L.O.L.

Heleptra
06-23-2010, 09:45 AM
<p>No sarcasm</p>

Jeht
06-23-2010, 01:58 PM
<p>lol you're a very funny man. but seriously...</p>

Nemas Ravenor
06-23-2010, 03:15 PM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0</a> Exactly

Pinino-Lfg
06-24-2010, 04:48 PM
<p>   I hope honestly they really listen to peoples pleas, ask the oldest people on nagafen and they will probably tell you that pvp was amazing in EoF, u had fame loss, token body drops, people out actually hunting in small groups or solo for thier fame and because of no writs, the players decided where the fights would be not the writ givers, immunity was almost no where to be found... pvp gear was alot more expensive aswell took 3 months of grinding for a piece of gear, was very rewarding when u actually recieved it....</p><p>I believe we hated pvp back then, thats is we hated some things about it, but we loved all of it at the same time.... the harder somthing is the better and more rewarding it is when you finally accomplish victory. bottom line. sure people will whine, but they will continue to play when you make things difficult it makes it more rewarding to win  and when you make it  easy for everyone with no loss of experience or fame and youve accomplished everything there is to accomplish it gets old real fast...</p><p>the same kind of feeling as uh playing on an emulated private server where you can summon any gear you want... its cool at begining equiping yourself as the best equiped character in the game, but you eventually realize that youve accomplished nothing everyone has what you have and you have no fear of losing it because it was gained so easy you can throw it away and find somthing new to play with...</p><p>the things we hated back then,  people 1v1, evacing when you poped up on track, geting hunted by a gank group while trying to hunt solo, the greys leeching fame hits so they could achieve high rank without any loss, no immunity safe spots at all you simply had 30 secs to prepare for being hunted again, this stuff made it enjoyable for some crazy psychotic reason,it gave you a thrill to the game, a worry in the back of your head, will i be ganked any second... yes when your camped at your spawn point it made you [Removed for Content] to lose 3 fame hits from groups griefing you or somthing but its better then godmode pvp , or zergfest pvp where you just sit there and continue to get your kill count up with no care wheather you die or not</p><p>I really hope a developer reads this.</p><p> My friend who plays eq1 aswell as on project 1999  server (emulated eq1 pre expansions) and his friends stated they hate everquest aswell as eq2, but the one thing it had was the best pvp system they've ever seen, of course they only got to play in eof so of course its alot different now, but this definatly was the strongest point of the game in my opinion yalls pvp system was painfully difficult and amazing all at the same time...</p>

Heleptra
06-24-2010, 05:52 PM
<p>Amen.</p><p>Me and thousends other players fully support you and stay behind your words on this.</p><p>Hartsia.</p>

Neskonlith
06-24-2010, 06:32 PM
<p><cite>Heleptra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Trust me on this, They will fix this and they are taking this issue <span style="color: #ff00ff; font-size: small;">wery serious</span>.</p></blockquote><p><img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/thisissewious.jpg" width="211" height="249" /> </p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><em>"...this is sewiously sewious!  the lag is out of</em> - "</span> *thud*</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">So, any new progress on the lag?  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Would be nice to have "war" on open-pvp, instead of <em>semi-capped-partially-open-BeeGees</em>.</span></p>

Pinino-Lfg
06-24-2010, 07:29 PM
<p>im gonna be optimistic about this and say for the most part that the people who effect change in everquest 2 are really looking into this and try and just be patient,</p>

Edgaard
06-25-2010, 01:34 AM
<p><cite>Pinino-Lfg wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>im gonna be optimistic about this and say for the most part that the people who effect change in everquest 2 are really looking into this and try and just be patient,</p></blockquote><p>Fat chance ! Just sayin</p>

Shimonji
06-25-2010, 03:50 AM
<p>First I have to applaud the OP for a well thought out and passionate post.</p><p>I fail to understand all those that say the server has to keep growing to be successful.  Lets do some simple math.</p><p>Monthy Fee $14.99. We will round this down to make it even easier.</p><p>Active accounts with a toon on Nagafen.  For arguments sake say 5000.</p><p>$14 multiplied by 5000 equals $70,000 a Month!!!!!!</p><p>Are you all telling me that a fluctuating population between 4500 and 5000 bringing in $63,000 to $70,000 a month is not enough to pay a couple good devs, bandwidth, power, storage and space to hold the equipment?</p><p>I know from personal expeirence that it does not cost that much to host equipement in some one else's data center let alone one that should be owned outright.</p><p>Anyone remember the Alternate Rules Server comment made not too long ago? Here is an idea.  Build a new server and hire a couple of devs with this incentive.</p><p>Create a PVP environment that will draw current PVP players from Nagafen and Vox.  Bonus is 20% of active players on the new server averaged over a quarter.</p><p>Anyone know any good devs that would like the potential to make about 40K in bonus per quarter?</p>

zyllith
06-25-2010, 12:41 PM
<p><cite>Shimonji wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Are you all telling me that a fluctuating population between 4500 and 5000 bringing in $63,000 to $70,000 a month is not enough to pay a couple good devs, bandwidth, power, storage and space to hold the equipment?<p>I know from personal expeirence that it does not cost that much to host equipement in some one else's data center let alone one that should be owned outright.</p><p>Anyone remember the Alternate Rules Server comment made not too long ago? Here is an idea.  Build a new server and hire a couple of devs with this incentive.</p><p>Create a PVP environment that will draw current PVP players from Nagafen and Vox.  Bonus is 20% of active players on the new server averaged over a quarter.</p><p>Anyone know any good devs that would like the potential to make about 40K in bonus per quarter?</p></blockquote><p>In Silicon Valley, as well as in San Diego, $63-70K per month is pocket change: that would pay for a 2K ft2 office, two dev's, an ISP connection, a couple of computers and the electricy to run them.</p><p>Based on what it costs in Silicon Valley for a moderate networked company (such as Slingbox) which is roughly comparable to the Nag server size (excluding the dev's cost) I would guess that SOE is burning about $450K per month on those fixed computing costs ...</p><p>As to the $40K bonus per quarter, well, that's nice and all but y'all need to head a little north with that number to attract serious talent -- surf on over to dice.com and browse around a bit in the Silicon Valley/ San Diego markets to see what some realistic numbers are ...</p>

Arieneth
06-25-2010, 12:47 PM
<p>based on posts in this thread...no one really cares about devs. all we want a classic EQ2 server far away from Olihin. no need to pay devs to break content, ruin pvp and generaly [Removed for Content] us off.</p><p>reopen Venekor, load the old T7 code and pretend we don't exist!</p>

Shimonji
06-25-2010, 02:17 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shimonji wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Are you all telling me that a fluctuating population between 4500 and 5000 bringing in $63,000 to $70,000 a month is not enough to pay a couple good devs, bandwidth, power, storage and space to hold the equipment?<p>I know from personal expeirence that it does not cost that much to host equipement in some one else's data center let alone one that should be owned outright.</p><p>Anyone remember the Alternate Rules Server comment made not too long ago? Here is an idea.  Build a new server and hire a couple of devs with this incentive.</p><p>Create a PVP environment that will draw current PVP players from Nagafen and Vox.  Bonus is 20% of active players on the new server averaged over a quarter.</p><p>Anyone know any good devs that would like the potential to make about 40K in bonus per quarter?</p></blockquote><p>In Silicon Valley, as well as in San Diego, $63-70K per month is pocket change: that would pay for a 2K ft2 office, two dev's, an ISP connection, a couple of computers and the electricy to run them.</p><p>Based on what it costs in Silicon Valley for a moderate networked company (such as Slingbox) which is roughly comparable to the Nag server size (excluding the dev's cost) I would guess that SOE is burning about $450K per month on those fixed computing costs ...</p><p>As to the $40K bonus per quarter, well, that's nice and all but y'all need to head a little north with that number to attract serious talent -- surf on over to dice.com and browse around a bit in the Silicon Valley/ San Diego markets to see what some realistic numbers are ...</p></blockquote><p>Come on.  I run a data center that has 17 racks full of equipment with redundant power and Internet connections and pay just under 40k a month. If they are spending 450K per month to run a single server, they need to fire a whole bunch of people.  And yes I understand that there is more infrastructure, but all that equipment has been paid for a thousand times over.</p>

Nemas Ravenor
06-25-2010, 05:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>based on posts in this thread...no one really cares about devs. all we want a classic EQ2 server far away from Olihin. no need to pay devs to break content, ruin pvp and generaly [Removed for Content] us off.</p><p>reopen Venekor, load the old T7 code and pretend we don't exist</p></blockquote><p>Please!</p>

Taldier
06-25-2010, 08:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>based on posts in this thread...no one really cares about devs. all we want a classic EQ2 server far away from Olihin. no need to pay devs to break content, ruin pvp and generaly [Removed for Content] us off.</p><p>reopen Venekor, load the old T7 code and pretend we don't exist!</p></blockquote><p>+1</p><p>Pvp servers dont need new content, we develop new content every time we engage each other in pvp.  We only need a functioning server.</p>

Agent2k
06-26-2010, 02:35 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>based on posts in this thread...no one really cares about devs. all we want a classic EQ2 server far away from Olihin. no need to pay devs to break content, ruin pvp and generaly [Removed for Content] us off.</p><p>reopen Venekor, load the old T7 code and pretend we don't exist!</p></blockquote><p>Easily the best and simpliest idea.</p>

YasikoSetsu
06-26-2010, 08:03 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>based on posts in this thread...no one really cares about devs. all we want a classic EQ2 server far away from Olihin. no need to pay devs to break content, ruin pvp and generaly [Removed for Content] us off.</p><p>reopen Venekor, load the old T7 code and pretend we don't exist!</p></blockquote><p>Epic +1.</p>

Pinino-Lfg
06-26-2010, 01:46 PM
<p>Doubt they would do anything like that thats alot more work and upkeep then just making changes to pvp mechanic, gotta be somewhat realistic with ideas i figured.</p>

asaron
06-26-2010, 02:10 PM
<p>token body drops are a major fail way too many people that have to gank  you could be stomping somone solo and low and behold a gank group shows up finishes them off loots chest your long fight was jsut deemed worthless  way too many kiddies that cant kill anyone without the herd for token body drops</p>

Pinino-Lfg
06-26-2010, 02:31 PM
<p>if ur in a long fight with somone only you can loot the chest same goes with mobs, everyone else is locked from chest but you</p>

Nofro
06-26-2010, 02:45 PM
<p>Nice post.  </p><p>I agree with most of the sentiments and come from a very similar background, although, I think the BGs in addition to the writ givers were the big downfall.</p><p>I hung it up in March 2010.</p><p>After 10 years of being a hardcore raider and PvP-er I quit and only check the forums every few months to see if there is a change.  I'm looking for a good alternative but this game just doesn't 'work' anymore.  </p><p>I'm leveling a toon to 80 in WoW (65 now) just to say I did it but that game is childsplay in comparison, although, it did maintained/take a lot of cool EQ1 game dynamics EQ2 bailed on.</p><p>So two steps back and hopeful one step forward at some point in the future.</p><p>V.</p>

Arieneth
06-26-2010, 02:49 PM
<p><cite>Pinino-Lfg wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Doubt they would do anything like that thats alot more work and upkeep then just making changes to pvp mechanic, gotta be somewhat realistic with ideas i figured.</p></blockquote><p>because loading old T7 code onto a server and turning it on is more work than developing code, testing it, breaking it and fixing it while breaking other things.</p><p>the upkeep would be far less than upkeep on the current servers. look at Nagafen...laggiest server in the entire game. all the gear with procs, among many other things, kills server performance. look at all the threads about it.</p><p>that didn't exist back in T7, or nowhere near as bad. the best gear possible didnt punch the server in the face all day.</p>

Arieneth
06-26-2010, 02:51 PM
<p><cite>asaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>token body drops are a major fail way too many people that have to gank  you could be stomping somone solo and low and behold a gank group shows up finishes them off loots chest your long fight was jsut deemed worthless  way too many kiddies that cant kill anyone without the herd for token body drops</p></blockquote><p>agree. tokens were the beginning of the downfall. the best system was pure status based. gank groups that tried to steal your kills would and get vastly diminished status gains. any physical currency for purchasing goods is too easily exploitable.</p>

PeaSy1
06-26-2010, 03:11 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pinino-Lfg wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Doubt they would do anything like that thats alot more work and upkeep then just making changes to pvp mechanic, gotta be somewhat realistic with ideas i figured.</p></blockquote><p>because loading old T7 code onto a server and turning it on is more work than developing code, testing it, breaking it and fixing it while breaking other things.</p><p>the upkeep would be far less than upkeep on the current servers. look at Nagafen...laggiest server in the entire game. all the gear with procs, among many other things, kills server performance. look at all the threads about it.</p><p>that didn't exist back in T7, or nowhere near as bad. the best gear possible didnt punch the server in the face all day.</p></blockquote><p>Harla dar has the same proc gear on a more populated server and has no lag problems from wat ive seen.</p>

Szerian
06-26-2010, 04:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pinino-Lfg wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Doubt they would do anything like that thats alot more work and upkeep then just making changes to pvp mechanic, gotta be somewhat realistic with ideas i figured.</p></blockquote><p>because loading old T7 code onto a server and turning it on is more work than developing code, testing it, breaking it and fixing it while breaking other things.</p><p>the upkeep would be far less than upkeep on the current servers. look at Nagafen...laggiest server in the entire game. all the gear with procs, among many other things, kills server performance. look at all the threads about it.</p><p>that didn't exist back in T7, or nowhere near as bad. the best gear possible didnt punch the server in the face all day.</p></blockquote><p>Harla dar has the same proc gear on a more populated server and has no lag problems from wat ive seen.</p></blockquote><p>havent played in a long time but im sure the expansions is not the cause of the lag if the russian server is running the same expansion with no lag problems.. prolly somthing with the code if anything</p>

Szerian
06-26-2010, 04:04 PM
<p><cite>Pinino-Lfg wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>   I hope honestly they really listen to peoples pleas, ask the oldest people on nagafen and they will probably tell you that pvp was amazing in EoF, u had fame loss, token body drops, people out actually hunting in small groups or solo for thier fame and because of no writs, the players decided where the fights would be not the writ givers, immunity was almost no where to be found... pvp gear was alot more expensive aswell took 3 months of grinding for a piece of gear, was very rewarding when u actually recieved it....</p><p>I believe we hated pvp back then, thats is we hated some things about it, but we loved all of it at the same time.... the harder somthing is the better and more rewarding it is when you finally accomplish victory. bottom line. sure people will whine, but they will continue to play when you make things difficult it makes it more rewarding to win  and when you make it  easy for everyone with no loss of experience or fame and youve accomplished everything there is to accomplish it gets old real fast...</p><p>the same kind of feeling as uh playing on an emulated private server where you can summon any gear you want... its cool at begining equiping yourself as the best equiped character in the game, but you eventually realize that youve accomplished nothing everyone has what you have and you have no fear of losing it because it was gained so easy you can throw it away and find somthing new to play with...</p><p>the things we hated back then,  people 1v1, evacing when you poped up on track, geting hunted by a gank group while trying to hunt solo, the greys leeching fame hits so they could achieve high rank without any loss, no immunity safe spots at all you simply had 30 secs to prepare for being hunted again, this stuff made it enjoyable for some crazy psychotic reason,it gave you a thrill to the game, a worry in the back of your head, will i be ganked any second... yes when your camped at your spawn point it made you [Removed for Content] to lose 3 fame hits from groups griefing you or somthing but its better then godmode pvp , or zergfest pvp where you just sit there and continue to get your kill count up with no care wheather you die or not</p><p>I really hope a developer reads this.</p><p> My friend who plays eq1 aswell as on project 1999  server (emulated eq1 pre expansions) and his friends stated they hate everquest aswell as eq2, but the one thing it had was the best pvp system they've ever seen, of course they only got to play in eof so of course its alot different now, but this definatly was the strongest point of the game in my opinion yalls pvp system was painfully difficult and amazing all at the same time...</p></blockquote><p>/agree with everything</p>

Pinino-Lfg
06-26-2010, 04:06 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pinino-Lfg wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Doubt they would do anything like that thats alot more work and upkeep then just making changes to pvp mechanic, gotta be somewhat realistic with ideas i figured.</p></blockquote><p>because loading old T7 code onto a server and turning it on is more work than developing code, testing it, breaking it and fixing it while breaking other things.</p><p>the upkeep would be far less than upkeep on the current servers. look at Nagafen...laggiest server in the entire game. all the gear with procs, among many other things, kills server performance. look at all the threads about it.</p><p>that didn't exist back in T7, or nowhere near as bad. the best gear possible didnt punch the server in the face all day.</p></blockquote><p>Harla dar has the same proc gear on a more populated server and has no lag problems from wat ive seen.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly russian servers dont have lag</p>

Arieneth
06-26-2010, 04:13 PM
<p>it's no secret the russian servers are not SOE owned. they are rented and vastly superior to our servers despite SOE's claims of upgrading Nagafen.</p><p>but my point still stands. ease the stress (or do a real upgrade) on the servers and the lag will be better. they are progressing the game at a faster rate than the servers that run it. buy Nagafen a new server and then turn old Nagafen server into a classic server...i dont care...i just want my fun back. which is the whole point. we can stop talking about lag as there are 15 other threads about it. this is about the game not being as fun as it used to be and what we want to get it back to what it was.</p>

Joemomm
06-27-2010, 12:35 AM
<p>Holy jumping frogloks it's Szerian! Did you drop Aion yet and come back?</p>

yellowbelly08
06-27-2010, 04:50 AM
<p>While I do agree that the best pvp was pre 2007 there is nothing stopping us having good pvp with the current ruleset (bar lag of course), its just the stubborn mentality of many nostalgics wont permit this.. I like Battlegrounds and it has invigorated pve servers for sure and gives a nice instant pvp alternative. (tho BGs are crying out for new maps and the promised leaderboards and monthly prizes as promised..) If people say battlegrounds have now meant that not many open world pvp anymore then the fix is to have DIFFERENT rewards, eg different and Better gear (which ok cant work in Bgs..but).</p><p>  Warfields have meant the only open world pvp to be found is generally in Ant and Cl and in the zerg points of these zones to boot. To improve warfields a.) fix the lag b.) do not get a reward for losing a warfield c.) Have a tough end raid boss mob to kill when towers are down and d.) have a greater faction reward for winning a warfield such as reduced broker prices for the duration the current warfield has been won till the next.</p><p>Such concentration of open world pvp tho is far from optimal and leads to increasingly unbalanced zergs. People/A teams need to still be roaming imo. To encouarge this....a suggestion would be to have a randomly spawning npc pop up every 30 mins in ANY T9 (or any tier for each lvl) which when found..and killed gives a chance to drop a rare uber pvp item as loot (maybe one in 5 chance to drop other times drops decent legendary no trade no heirloom). So solos or A teams would roam the relevant zones...and encounter similar opposition frequently.</p><p>Its all about the player base if we wanted to make things good we could. Eg a decent guild needs to betray to fp..to stop the imbalance. A teams need to start going out looking for A teams.</p><p>This way everyone COULD find plentiful, decent pvp if they wanted to. Bring back fame loss?..er NO as previous sentence wouldnt apply....</p>

Bryony
06-27-2010, 05:18 AM
<p>One other thing they could do to help the zerg mechanics in warfields is to remove the revive spots from the areas close to the towers to prevent simple die/stand up zerg writs. Or, move the warfields to better areas that do not have revive spots right in front of, and not far off from the towers.</p><p>Additionally due to the serious city imbalances on Nagafen for PvP and raiding they need to allow betrayal with less penalty. For example where you don't lose your Masters unless you swap classes. This would encourage a little more balance and I would imagine help Freeport out quite a bit at this point.</p>

Bryony
06-27-2010, 05:19 AM
<p>Akella runs the Russian servers (I believe!)</p>

Eboncross
06-27-2010, 06:57 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>One other thing they could do to help the zerg mechanics in warfields is to remove the revive spots from the areas close to the towers to prevent simple die/stand up zerg writs. Or, move the warfields to better areas that do not have revive spots right in front of, and not far off from the towers.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> I love the revive Zerg. I think I killed the same person like 15 times the other day.</span></p><p>Additionally due to the serious city imbalances on Nagafen for PvP and raiding they need to allow betrayal with less penalty. For example where you don't lose your Masters unless you swap classes. This would encourage a little more balance and I would imagine help Freeport out quite a bit at this point. <span style="color: #ff0000;">The number is a bunch of bologna. Everytime im in antonica or CL for this they out number the q's with their grey fest.</span> <span style="color: #ff0000;">If they got on their 90's they would easily out number the Q's. Yesterday there was far more level 35 freeps than any other Q combined at SQ tower. Funny too because they all stood around doing nothing because the q's were mostly on their 90's. Just a note, I didnt see this kind of leg up/hand out for the Q's on Venekor when the Freeps out numbered the Q's 10 to 1. I would suggest they allow a guild to move over. I bet more would be inclined to do it that way..</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">They have needed to have a balance of sides for a long time. A cap where an account can only make a toons on the side wheres there is an opening and you stay on that side for all your alts also. </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small;"></span></p></blockquote>

We_want_your_soul
06-27-2010, 09:24 AM
<p>I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind some of their changes. It's like they have a slot machine or a wheel that they spin to find out what they're going to change next. Oh hey, today we'll add level 2 spells. Tomorrow we might address server performance... nah let's just act like Shaders 3.0 is the solution, it'll surely confuse the computer illiterate!</p><p>Anyways, I definitely agree with Bryony about Exile. At this point of the game what's the issue with masters at this point minus changing classes. At the moment the only way the average person would exile is to the larger population side (Qeynos) because [Removed for Content] all your masters just isn't worth it otherwise. It's honestly to sad that the server isn't Free-for-all based outside of cities, but making Exile less of a hassle would actually seem inline with all the stupid stuff that hits live.</p><p>Honestly it takes longer to go from Freeport to Qeynos than it does to hit level 50. There is no loyalty to cities anymore when you can be a Paladin in Freeport or a Necromancer in Qeynos. There is no advantage to being exile, period. (Not that there was before, the few guilds that used it as a reason for lack of raiding progression are still in the exact same spot they were before.) At this point in the game the inability to communicate is beyond staggering. I have felt this way since the beginning, but the complete lack of speech between factions has completely ruined any real sense of community. Whatever perceived griefing they felt that people would do through speech is miniscule compared to real damage done by these Berlin Walls.</p><p>I have been playing on Crushbone every once in a while lately with a few friends and the chat itself is the same basic stuff as Nagafen, but the attitude is completely different. Take down the language barriers, open grouping to everyone and let it play out like it's supposed to. Player driven politics always trump any game enforced faction.</p><p>I could go on all day about issues in game that make no sense, from nerfs to buffs and everything in between but the single most killing attribute of an MMO is when you restrict players from interacting with players, especially on a pvp server.</p>

Cloakentuna
06-27-2010, 02:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind some of their changes. It's like they have a slot machine or a wheel that they spin to find out what they're going to change next. Oh hey, today we'll add level 2 spells. Tomorrow we might address server performance... nah let's just act like Shaders 3.0 is the solution, it'll surely confuse the computer illiterate!</p><p>Anyways, I definitely agree with Bryony about Exile. At this point of the game what's the issue with masters at this point minus changing classes. At the moment the only way the average person would exile is to the larger population side (Qeynos) because [Removed for Content] all your masters just isn't worth it otherwise. It's honestly to sad that the server isn't Free-for-all based outside of cities, but making Exile less of a hassle would actually seem inline with all the stupid stuff that hits live.</p><p>Honestly it takes longer to go from Freeport to Qeynos than it does to hit level 50. There is no loyalty to cities anymore when you can be a Paladin in Freeport or a Necromancer in Qeynos. There is no advantage to being exile, period. (Not that there was before, the few guilds that used it as a reason for lack of raiding progression are still in the exact same spot they were before.) At this point in the game the inability to communicate is beyond staggering. I have felt this way since the beginning, but the complete lack of speech between factions has completely ruined any real sense of community. Whatever perceived griefing they felt that people would do through speech is miniscule compared to real damage done by these Berlin Walls.</p><p>I have been playing on Crushbone every once in a while lately with a few friends and the chat itself is the same basic stuff as Nagafen, but the attitude is completely different. Take down the language barriers, open grouping to everyone and let it play out like it's supposed to. Player driven politics always trump any game enforced faction.</p><p>I could go on all day about issues in game that make no sense, from nerfs to buffs and everything in between but the single most killing attribute of an MMO is when you restrict players from interacting with players, especially on a pvp server.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p>

Messia
06-27-2010, 02:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oilthin already posted that the old fame system would be very hard to bring back because they would have to recode everything.</p><p>That is pretty terrible but there you go, dont expect any major changes until expac.</p><p>LoL.</p></blockquote><p>ARE YOU KIDDING ? RECODE EVERYTHING? We all know every single stitch of code you have ever written is still on the server and the reason for so much lag... when you change something all you do is bypass old code and the process is still running in the background .. DUH ... you are your own worst enemy when you change something why don't you try actually reworking the code instead of bypassing it and laying it over the top .... THIS WOULD FIX THE LAG!</p>

Messia
06-27-2010, 02:27 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Nagafen is a lost cause. i can't believe Olihin has been able to keep his job. easily the worst thing to happen to the server we call home. rewards for zerging and handing out gear to lazy scrubs. just a couple highlights of his genius. but i can tell you how he screwed up so bad. he listened to the crybabies. too many people couldn't handle pvp back when it was hard so he made it easier and easier. and now look at it...</p><p>this is why i want an EQ2 Classic server...T7, the glory days. i won't believe for a minute they don't have backups of all the old code.</p></blockquote><p>... and other comments in a similar vein ...</p><p>Umm ... there are indeed a handful of people who passionately want to go back to the "old ways", where the lazy scrubs were slaughtered, when assassins lurked at rez points ready to oneshot an unwary traveler, where squads of FP's congregated at choke points again to slaughter the lazy scrubs, etc. etc.</p><p>Unfortunately, EQ2 costs money to run each and every day and SOE isn't making EQ2 as a public service, they are doing it to, well, make money.  Each quarter the dev's need to generate revenue and by "generate revenue" that means new people coming to the game.  Without new people coming to the game, and enjoying that game, then "revenue" doesn't come in and SOE decided to put it's money elsewhere.</p><p>Those "lazy scrubs", those "crybabies", those "people who couldn't handle pvp back when it was hard" most unfortunately make up a large portion of the "generate revenue" equation.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Look back at the subscriber counts over the last few years -- those "lazy bluebie servers" are going *up* in population, the PvP servers are going down.</span>  <span style="color: #ffff00;">If you don't have enough "new revenue" then SOE will make a simple business decision to first merge servers (oh yeah, they *did* do that) and then simply pack up the whole mess and put money into things that *do* generate revenue like the bluebie servers.</span></p><p>I can appreciate that some people enjoy the "good old days", and if only there were new players who appreciated the subtleties of being ganked hundreds of times until they "learned to play" and could start getting new gear, who were willing to put aside families, friends, school, work and all other aspects of life to put in the 5+ hrs each day for years in PvP rather than the "casual 2-4 hr per week" then I'm sure that Olihin and the devs would gladly make PvP just as hard core as it used to be, maybe more so.</p><p>Tragically, unfortunately, with much regret, that isn't happening.  Olihin and company are trying mightly to keep PvP in the game without alienating those "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" who "only PvP 2-4hr every week" that "generate revenue" for the game that, ultimately, is a business for SOE.  I for one continue to appreciate the work that they are doing and hope that PvP will continue to become something to look forward to for the "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" out there rather than just another gauntlet to run on the way to content -- and the BG's and WF's do just that.</p><p>I appreciate the lost years of your lives spent amassing tons of ultra-expensive PvP gear that can now be obtained by sitting AFK on the docks in a few evenings, and recognize the personal sacrifices each of the hard core people made to become one-shot overseers. </p><p>It's a business.  Catering to the 95% of "lazy scrubs" and "crybabies" is what pays the bills, and what ultimately will determine what Olihin can and can't do, period. </p><p>Sorry!</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You sir are a [Removed for Content] ... Nagafen still has the largest population of any server .. Nagafen is their bread winner .. and if you kill pvp ... bye bye Eq2 .. and thats not just talk its FACT this server has more players than Befallen or any of the other servers.  Ironically Nagafen the largest populated server has less than 10 percent of its population participating in BGs .. the biggest fail at trying to "control" pvp i've ever seen.   People who want to play on a pvp server even the ones who are bad at pvp are here because they enjoy the random encounter of possibly having a fight while adventuring ... if they wanted instanced PVP i suspect they'd be playing WOW or Warhammer.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">A simple solution to the Yellow highlight is called AN ADVERTISING BUDGET..... SOE doesn't believe in spending money on advertising .. they expect their "player base" to advertise the game .. well DUH do you really think anyone playing right now especially on the PVP server is going to have anything good to say about the game? ITS BROKEN DON'T PLAY IT .. thats what they will say so they have shot their best advertisers in the back.</span></p><p>Perhaps a lesson could have been learned from SWG and the "massive" changes made there the population went from 270,000 accounts to something like 30,000 in a matter of 30 to 60 days.  Thank god the changes here were not as massive and game changing all at once but the results are the same Ignore the player base who is telling you what they want and you will get a bag of manure instead of a sack full of subscription money</p>

Messia
06-27-2010, 02:38 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind some of their changes. It's like they have a slot machine or a wheel that they spin to find out what they're going to change next. Oh hey, today we'll add level 2 spells. Tomorrow we might address server performance... nah let's just act like Shaders 3.0 is the solution, it'll surely confuse the computer illiterate!</p><p>Anyways, I definitely agree with Bryony about Exile. At this point of the game what's the issue with masters at this point minus changing classes. At the moment the only way the average person would exile is to the larger population side (Qeynos) because [Removed for Content] all your masters just isn't worth it otherwise. It's honestly to sad that the server isn't Free-for-all based outside of cities, but making Exile less of a hassle would actually seem inline with all the stupid stuff that hits live.</p><p>Honestly it takes longer to go from Freeport to Qeynos than it does to hit level 50. There is no loyalty to cities anymore when you can be a Paladin in Freeport or a Necromancer in Qeynos. There is no advantage to being exile, period. (Not that there was before, the few guilds that used it as a reason for lack of raiding progression are still in the exact same spot they were before.) At this point in the game the inability to communicate is beyond staggering. I have felt this way since the beginning, but the complete lack of speech between factions has completely ruined any real sense of community. Whatever perceived griefing they felt that people would do through speech is miniscule compared to real damage done by these Berlin Walls.</p><p>I have been playing on Crushbone every once in a while lately with a few friends and the chat itself is the same basic stuff as Nagafen, but the attitude is completely different. Take down the language barriers, open grouping to everyone and let it play out like it's supposed to. Player driven politics always trump any game enforced faction.</p><p>I could go on all day about issues in game that make no sense, from nerfs to buffs and everything in between but the single most killing attribute of an MMO is when you restrict players from interacting with players, especially on a pvp server.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p></blockquote><p>I will agree with you in part here but honestly in the past frog lack of communication was never an issue between factions, I believe the original poster was correct in assessing that putting in pvp writs and any easy way to pvp armor for lazy folks went a very long way in the downfall of pvp in general</p>

We_want_your_soul
06-27-2010, 06:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind some of their changes. It's like they have a slot machine or a wheel that they spin to find out what they're going to change next. Oh hey, today we'll add level 2 spells. Tomorrow we might address server performance... nah let's just act like Shaders 3.0 is the solution, it'll surely confuse the computer illiterate!</p><p>Anyways, I definitely agree with Bryony about Exile. At this point of the game what's the issue with masters at this point minus changing classes. At the moment the only way the average person would exile is to the larger population side (Qeynos) because [Removed for Content] all your masters just isn't worth it otherwise. It's honestly to sad that the server isn't Free-for-all based outside of cities, but making Exile less of a hassle would actually seem inline with all the stupid stuff that hits live.</p><p>Honestly it takes longer to go from Freeport to Qeynos than it does to hit level 50. There is no loyalty to cities anymore when you can be a Paladin in Freeport or a Necromancer in Qeynos. There is no advantage to being exile, period. (Not that there was before, the few guilds that used it as a reason for lack of raiding progression are still in the exact same spot they were before.) At this point in the game the inability to communicate is beyond staggering. I have felt this way since the beginning, but the complete lack of speech between factions has completely ruined any real sense of community. Whatever perceived griefing they felt that people would do through speech is miniscule compared to real damage done by these Berlin Walls.</p><p>I have been playing on Crushbone every once in a while lately with a few friends and the chat itself is the same basic stuff as Nagafen, but the attitude is completely different. Take down the language barriers, open grouping to everyone and let it play out like it's supposed to. Player driven politics always trump any game enforced faction.</p><p>I could go on all day about issues in game that make no sense, from nerfs to buffs and everything in between but the single most killing attribute of an MMO is when you restrict players from interacting with players, especially on a pvp server.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p></blockquote><p>I will agree with you in part here but honestly in the past frog lack of communication was never an issue between factions, I believe the original poster was correct in assessing that putting in pvp writs and any easy way to pvp armor for lazy folks went a very long way in the downfall of pvp in general</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure what you're talking about so I'll put a few words behind it. Ever been exile? Have you or were you exile when Havoc and Sempiternal first hit exile the day it went live? That was some of most intense couple of days I've ever experienced in Everquest II, the top guild on the server beating the ever living crap out of the wannabe.</p><p>Were you possibly exile towards the end of EoF? Maybe witness Kraken's one week defiant stand? It was like a rally call from the underdog that actually worked.</p><p>Or during RoK, the last big expansion (imo) the constant war between Onyx and The Kraken drove nagafen to world prominance because for the first time a guild on Nagafen was in the top ten worldwide for a zone clear. The competition that being able to talk to each other created made alot of this happen that probably would have just been ZzzZzz otherwise.</p><p>Maybe the big atmosphere wasn't your cup of tea, but it encompassed a large aspect of the whole server. It was always a big fight attitude when you saw your rival in Exile, simply because if you had been talking trash and you got owned? Oh yea, everyone would definitely hear about it for at least 5 minutes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

max.power
06-28-2010, 11:46 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite> </cite></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Nagafen still has the largest population of any server .. Nagafen is their bread winner .. and if you kill pvp ... bye bye Eq2 .. and thats not just talk its FACT this server has more players than Befallen or any of the other servers.</span></p></blockquote><p>Yeah, great... so what? Population of Nagafen <<<<< Population of all other PvE servers together so even IF SOE would shut down Nagafen it wouldn't hurt them much (not to forget that many would just reroll on a PvE server).</p><p>FACT for you: EQ2-PvP is NOT what holds SOE over water. Stop acting like we are something special and important to SOE because we can kill other player's toons.</p>

zyllith
06-28-2010, 12:26 PM
<p><cite></cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite> </cite></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Nagafen still has the largest population of any server .. Nagafen is their bread winner .. and if you kill pvp ... bye bye Eq2 .. and thats not just talk its FACT this server has more players than Befallen or any of the other servers.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>You're going off of the count from the "network status" page, aren't you?  Most unfortunately, that is the "total toon population count", which includes a) inactive accounts and b) toons spread across user accounts.  What you need to look at for a true population count, and as I mentioned in the Warfields thread a few weeks back, is the "live" population count which can be determined by using the /who command and carefully examing the last line of that report.  Do this every hour or so during prime time, which will allow you to get an idea of the people popping in and out, and do this for three servers; Bazaar (PvE), Vox (light PvP) and Nag.  You will discover that although Nag has one of highest population counts it has lower active player count that Bazaar -- likely because pretty much everyone rolled a toon on Nag (hence the high population count) but for a variety of reasons choose not to actually *play* that toon ...</p><p>Don't take my word for this, of course, do the /who yourself and see what you find ...</p>

Dorsan
06-28-2010, 12:33 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p>...the "live" population count which can be determined by using the /who command and carefully examing the last line of that report.  Do this every hour or so during prime time, which will allow you to get an idea of the people popping in and out, and do this for three servers; Bazaar (PvE), Vox (light PvP) and Nag.  You will discover that although Nag has one of highest population counts it has lower active player count that Bazaar -- likely because pretty much everyone rolled a toon on Nag (hence the high population count) but for a variety of reasons choose not to actually *play* that toon ...</blockquote><p>/who only shows you how many players there are in the zone.. /who all shows all the online players and that is capped at 100 on Nagafen at all times. And don't forget that PvE server /who lists both queynos and freeport while PvP /who lists only your own faction.</p>

zyllith
06-28-2010, 12:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p>...the "live" population count which can be determined by using the /who command and carefully examing the last line of that report.  Do this every hour or so during prime time, which will allow you to get an idea of the people popping in and out, and do this for three servers; Bazaar (PvE), Vox (light PvP) and Nag.  You will discover that although Nag has one of highest population counts it has lower active player count that Bazaar -- likely because pretty much everyone rolled a toon on Nag (hence the high population count) but for a variety of reasons choose not to actually *play* that toon ...</blockquote><p>/who only shows you how many players there are in the zone.. /who all shows all the online players and that is capped at 100 on Nagafen at all times. And don't forget that PvE server /who lists both queynos and freeport while PvP /who lists only your own faction.</p></blockquote><p>Quite right; it's a pretty inaccurate measure but it's a better metric than the simple NetStatusPop count and there are ways to get a better number.  Doing a /who in each shared zone (13 of 'em) will get a better number, doing this as a Q <span style="color: #ff6600;">and</span> as a FP on PvP and just a Q on PvE will get a better number, doing a /who [class] will get around the 100 count cap to get a better number, etc.</p><p>The point here is that the NetStatusPop has always been considered a bad metric; there are postings every so often here which show much better population counts (usually by level) and the OP crowing about how Nag was the top count and such just wasn't considering this ...</p>

Dorsan
06-28-2010, 12:56 PM
<p><cite>zyllith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Quite right; it's a pretty inaccurate measure but it's a better metric than the simple NetStatusPop count and there are ways to get a better number.  Doing a /who in each shared zone (13 of 'em) will get a better number, doing this as a Q <span style="color: #ff6600;">and</span> as a FP on PvP and just a Q on PvE will get a better number, doing a /who [class] will get around the 100 count cap to get a better number, etc.</p><p>The point here is that the NetStatusPop has always been considered a bad metric; there are postings every so often here which show much better population counts (usually by level) and the OP crowing about how Nag was the top count and such just wasn't considering this ...</p></blockquote><p>Incorrect again. The /who [class] will produce you way more results on a PvE server because 99% of people on a PvP server are /anon so they will not show up in those queries. Also battlegrounds are way more popular on PvP servers compared to PvE so many people are going in/out in/out which also affects your results. The fact is /who is not a good measure of anything.</p>

Kiara
06-28-2010, 02:12 PM
<p>I'm sorry to have to lock this thread, unfortunately too many people have resorted to being hateful to others and name-calling.</p><p>I've passed the concerns expressed in this thread along, but the thread cannot stay open any longer.</p>

SmokeJumper
06-29-2010, 09:18 PM
<p>First bit of honesty : PvP is not our focus at the moment. Between the new user improvements and the expansion later this year, the majority of our focus is elsewhere.</p><p>Second bit of honesty : We know there are inadequacies. (Polite phrasing.) We *will* be looking into it and making changes. But there is no ETA for those changes yet.</p><p>Personal note: I've made a lot of PvP games in my game history. I'm looking forward to digging in with the team and talking through stuff. Just not quite yet.</p>