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Texan345
06-14-2010, 04:00 AM
<p>Holy... Healers.</p><p>If their main stat line stacked wisdom didn't make it so easy to resist mage spells...</p><p>If all their pvp gear didn't allow them to reflect 10% of spells they don't resist on top of that...</p><p>If Banshee Hoop didn't have a 10% chance to fear you on any type of hit...</p><p>If they weren't consistently immune to stiffle, stun, fear, snare, or root with passive buffs or by using long duration buffs...</p><p>If it was possible for them to run out of power...</p><p>If by getting better pvp gear everyone could reduce healing amounts on a target more consistently than 10-15% debuff with a low proc rate that only lasts 8 seconds, and if it didn't take 8 people on one target for an extended period of time in order to make this debuff useful...</p><p>If all this was true...</p><p>Healers would be a lot more balanced and it wouldn't be so impossible to kill them when they're running with a full group. An extra healer in the group just makes them twice as impossible to kill.</p><p>Every classes pvp gear goes a long way in reducing the amount of damage they take in pvp. It's time that healers have their heals reduced as well when going up against opponents with pvp gear. The heal reduction gear procs that are out right now aren't doing nearly enough.</p>

Dorsan
06-14-2010, 04:31 AM
<p><cite>Texan345 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy... Healers.</p><p>If their main stat line stacked wisdom didn't make it so easy to resist mage spells...</p></blockquote><p>Wisdom is not used for calculating chances to outright resist spells anymore. It was changed to sta quite a few updates ago.</p>

mrsma
06-14-2010, 10:19 AM
<p><cite>Texan345 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy... Healers.</p><p>If their main stat line stacked wisdom didn't make it so easy to resist mage spells...</p><p>If all their pvp gear didn't allow them to reflect 10% of spells they don't resist on top of that...</p><p>If Banshee Hoop didn't have a 10% chance to fear you on any type of hit...</p><p>If they weren't consistently immune to stiffle, stun, fear, snare, or root with passive buffs or by using long duration buffs...</p><p>If it was possible for them to run out of power...</p><p>If by getting better pvp gear everyone could reduce healing amounts on a target more consistently than 10-15% debuff with a low proc rate that only lasts 8 seconds, and if it didn't take 8 people on one target for an extended period of time in order to make this debuff useful...</p><p><strong><span style="font-size: large; color: #ff0000;">If all this was true...</span></strong></p><p>Healers would be a lot more balanced and it wouldn't be so impossible to kill them when they're running with a full group. An extra healer in the group just makes them twice as impossible to kill.</p><p>Every classes pvp gear goes a long way in reducing the amount of damage they take in pvp. It's time that healers have their heals reduced as well when going up against opponents with pvp gear. The heal reduction gear procs that are out right now aren't doing nearly enough. </p></blockquote><p>Your group would die very quick.</p><p>Your above comments make refrence to a near  maxed out healer and yes one vs one you are going to have a hard time killing one.</p><p>Your point being . . . . .??</p>

TheVekk
06-14-2010, 10:50 AM
<p><cite>Texan345 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy... Healers.</p><p>If their main stat line stacked wisdom didn't make it so easy to resist mage spells...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">goes off STA not WIS</span></p><p>If all their pvp gear didn't allow them to reflect 10% of spells they don't resist on top of that...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Are you talking about lowbie pvp or end game? becuse as far as im aware there isnt items that give that on t9 items.</span></p><p>If Banshee Hoop didn't have a 10% chance to fear you on any type of hit...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">this can only proc Once every 30 seconds so its not nearly as OP as it was, its easily managable</span></p><p>If they weren't consistently immune to stiffle, stun, fear, snare, or root with passive buffs or by using long duration buffs...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">not sure what your talking about here no one gets a passive permant buff that stops all of these effects.....only buff i can think of it natures walk..but thats not passive</span></p><p>If it was possible for them to run out of power...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">power regen does seem to be out of control</span></p><p>If by getting better pvp gear everyone could reduce healing amounts on a target more consistently than 10-15% debuff with a low proc rate that only lasts 8 seconds, and if it didn't take 8 people on one target for an extended period of time in order to make this debuff useful...</p><p>If all this was true...</p><p>Healers would be a lot more balanced and it wouldn't be so impossible to kill them when they're running with a full group. An extra healer in the group just makes them twice as impossible to kill.</p><p>Every classes pvp gear goes a long way in reducing the amount of damage they take in pvp. It's time that healers have their heals reduced as well when going up against opponents with pvp gear. The heal reduction gear procs that are out right now aren't doing nearly enough.</p></blockquote><p>You know I find it funny, at the begining of the expasion it seemed dps was out of control and healing was almost impossible vs certain class. but now its seems dps is so low with the new gear healers have no trouble healing through anything lol.</p>

Wytie
06-14-2010, 11:58 AM
<p>Everyone is running 20-40% pvp damage reduction on top of resist and what they already have along with who knows how much pvp crit mit.</p><p>How can any mutilation proc that can easly be cured fight that?</p><p>Damage gets reduced in so many ways, 1st by toughness then by mitigation, heals only get a pvp reduction if they are engaged and then get re boosted by every way damage can actually be reduced.</p><p>I think the mutilation proc was a great idea it just needs to be enhanced much further to truely make a difference.</p><p>Otherwise heals keep going up and damage keeps going down from gear progression, the only way to beat someone with heals is purely by overwhelming numbers.</p>

Texan345
06-14-2010, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><p>Your group would die very quick.</p><p>Your above comments make refrence to a near  maxed out healer and yes one vs one you are going to have a hard time killing one.</p><p>Your point being . . . . .??</p></blockquote><p>No, the group wouldn't die very quick if they are decently geared. I'm a full challenger wizard and I can speak first hand that it takes a lot to kill me alone without someone healing me. My point is that right now pvp geared healers are not just hard to kill but  impossible to kill without sheer overwhelming numbers.</p>

TheVekk
06-14-2010, 01:58 PM
<p><cite>Texan345 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Your group would die very quick.</p><p>Your above comments make refrence to a near  maxed out healer and yes one vs one you are going to have a hard time killing one.</p><p>Your point being . . . . .??</p></blockquote><p>No, the group wouldn't die very quick if they are decently geared. I'm a full challenger wizard and I can speak first hand that it takes a lot to kill me alone without someone healing me. My point is that right now pvp geared healers are not just hard to kill but  impossible to kill without sheer overwhelming numbers.</p></blockquote><p>Just saying, SK's Pally's, Zerker's, brawlers, are the same way. plus wizzy and warlocks aa's lines make melee dmg a joke with the full Challenger set.......</p><p>lol, like i said soe has totaly screwed up pvp its not even fun anymore everyone is impossible to kill and if you do happen to get them down they will jsut run and break combat and get away in 5 seconds.</p>

Orthureon
06-14-2010, 04:38 PM
<p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Texan345 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Your group would die very quick.</p><p>Your above comments make refrence to a near  maxed out healer and yes one vs one you are going to have a hard time killing one.</p><p>Your point being . . . . .??</p></blockquote><p>No, the group wouldn't die very quick if they are decently geared. I'm a full challenger wizard and I can speak first hand that it takes a lot to kill me alone without someone healing me. My point is that right now pvp geared healers are not just hard to kill but  impossible to kill without sheer overwhelming numbers.</p></blockquote><p>Just saying, SK's Pally's, Zerker's, brawlers, are the same way. plus wizzy and warlocks aa's lines make melee dmg a joke with the full Challenger set.......</p><p>lol, like i said soe has totaly screwed up pvp its not even fun anymore everyone is impossible to kill and if you do happen to get them down they will jsut run and break combat and get away in 5 seconds.</p></blockquote><p>[Removed for Content] I hate runners (in 1v1s) lol, but I do run when I am going to get owned by a group. Like you said too many classes can take far too much damage now. Hell on my SK I can now pretty much never run out of power on top of never dying!</p>

bks6721
06-14-2010, 07:09 PM
<p>keep them very busy curing DOTS..  they seem to heal through the DD. Keep them busy with their cures and they can't heal as much.  Doesn't always work, but it does always help.</p>

Kota
06-14-2010, 07:58 PM
i get like 1k hp in heals for evrything i cure on my temp

Texan345
06-14-2010, 09:37 PM
<p>There are T9 items that give these abilities, check your vintage gear merchant.</p><p>Banshee hoop is manageable by itself however stacked with all the other stuff I listed its one of many things that make killing a healer so much harder and so much more annoying.</p><p>In my first post I said passive buffs OR long duration buffs (ie. temps)... this including Sancturary of course, and the passive being naturewalk which has group immunity to snare/root with AA... although I'm not limiting that statement to only those two buffs but just using them as examples.</p>

ZeroHero
06-15-2010, 09:59 AM
<p>The problem isn't heals as such, its the fact that damage reducers (mitigation, reducers, etc) make heals disproportionately more powerful.</p><p>The best way to resolve that is to change the damage reduction curve so that there's a better cap on how much incoming damage you can thow out.   If big nukes landed for 8K rather than 1K, a heal wouldn't seem so outrageous.  When 1K hits get siphoned down to "no damage" (as is the case for a lot of procs and quite a few casters other than sorcerers) those big heals become insurmountable.</p><p>Of course, this was probably the whole point behind the original .6 multiplier on mit/resists for PVP.  Which caused outrage when battlegrounds launched and a wider population got to see it.</p><p>So, so long as gear lets you take 1/4 or 1/5 of the incoming damage, you'll be able to heal through it unless you get constantly stunned/stifled/interrupted.</p><p>I've been wondering if the best way to implement it is just a floor on the amount an incoming hit can be reduced before it hits wards/reactives, whatever.  Maybe tinker with a 1/3 floor and see how it goes.  You don't want to set the floor too high or you make the gear worthless -- but a curve fit rather than the existing flat rate would make more sense.</p><p>The point isn't to add new crap to existing spells to make sure that everyone else can go discombobulate a healer, its to make crit healing sane with respect to received damage, not 10x more heals vs dmg.</p>

Somatic
06-15-2010, 11:21 AM
<p>DPS is still king. </p><p>Your making a comment about healers in endgame healer gear + yah some very nice pvp gear. </p><p>A) it takes a long time to get the gear, in both pvp and pve.</p><p>B) it's only OP vs randomly made groups.</p><p>C) it requires your group to actually play together - this alone is prob why you notice it more often.  It means a group is working together, where prob your group is not working together.  That fact alone makes the matchup pretty poor -- for you.</p><p>D) really requires a good tank that can taunt well.  Not being able to target the healer accounts for much more of the reason you can't get to them than the immunies you speak of.</p><p>---------------------------------------------------------</p><p>When you think about the opposite side of the equation:</p><p>Scouts and Tanks and Mages who</p><p>A) taken a long time to get gear in both pvp and pve</p><p>B) Work together well as a group.</p><p>Then they win.   There damage output from a group perspective is super high.</p><p>Your all thinking relative to a 1v1.  This is not a 1v1 game.  This is a group game.  There is no 1v1 bgs. </p><p>You get a group together with the right DPS all you want is 1 healer, the rest will be focused on as much damage as possible.</p><p>It's too bad SOE has not made a ladder system with rewards you would see a lot more serious BGs than you do now.   Right now u see a ton of randoms getting dominated by a few organized groups.  I've played on both sides. </p><p>SOE needs to add a carrot for more organized group play to encourage more serious grouping.  Or u will always get posts like this one.</p>

EndevorX
06-15-2010, 11:40 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">It's too bad SOE has not made a ladder system with rewards you would see a lot more serious BGs than you do now.   Right now u see a ton of randoms getting dominated by a few organized groups.  I've played on both sides. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">SOE needs to add a carrot for more organized group play to encourage more serious grouping.  Or u will always get posts like this one.</span></p></blockquote>

ailen
06-15-2010, 11:53 AM
<p>All things being equal everyone is too hard to kill now.</p><p>No character should be invulnerable to the amount of damage several, heck even a few people can put out now.</p><p>Potency plus crit bonus plus power procs and ward procs/heal procs has broken this game for PVP.   NO character no matter how well geared should be able to stay alive like basically every class does now.  It takes away from the concept of character roles. </p><p>I don't buy it Fritzz.  I know you're a good healer, but you do die fast when compared to most.  I don't know if its your AA build or what you're wearing, but I've seen inquisitors take 10x the damage you seem to take.  My poorly geared ranger actually inflicts damage on you whereas other healers can take ALL my damage output and make it look like I never even hit them.</p><p>THAT IS DUMB.  </p>

Daalilama
06-15-2010, 03:39 PM
<p>Healers are not as OP as many make it out and as for the Banshee hoop and its T9 upgrade please they have never been "OP" as people make them out to be annoying yes but that alone wont stop a good dps'r from flatbacking a healer...as Fritz said coordination has always been a critical key for a winning pvp grp...what we have now is nothing  like that.</p>

Texan345
06-15-2010, 09:04 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DPS is still king. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No DPS is not still king. DPS goes through so many defensive checks before actually inflicting damage and heals go through none before actually healing a target.</span></p><p>Your making a comment about healers in endgame healer gear + yah some very nice pvp gear. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I'm making this comment about ALL healers, however it begins to look rediculously obvious the better gear the healer gets even if the people they are facing in pvp are geared equally.</span></p><p>A) it takes a long time to get the gear, in both pvp and pve.</p><p>B) it's only OP vs randomly made groups.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No, it's OP all the time. If a healer is geared well the amount of damage an equally geared dps opponent can inflict compared to how well the healer can heal himself don't even compare. This holds true ALL the time but appears ridiculously OP when the healer has a tank near him taunting (or two or three) or another backup healer (or two or three) helping him heal.</span></p><p>C) it requires your group to actually play together - this alone is prob why you notice it more often.  It means a group is working together, where prob your group is not working together.  That fact alone makes the matchup pretty poor -- for you.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I always pvp in a group, I hardly ever 1v1 and I will never 1v1 a healer unless I know I have a significant gear advantage and can do 40% or greater damage with an ice comet because thats pretty much the spike dps you need to bring them down. In between tank taunts, backup healers, and all the immunities in the game it is still impossible to kill healers even if you have everyone working together as a solid team. I know this because I play Freep side and when me and my guild rolls out to warfields our 1 group can stand up to a x3 of Q's and not die forever because our tanks and healers don't run out of mana. It's just endless taunts on their dps and the damage we receive is so minimal its easy for our fully pvp geared healer to keep our fully pvp geared group up. And the Q's we're up against are equally or better geared considering they have mix their gear with raid peices that we don't have. If you've ever played a Gears of Klak or Ganak and you've gone against a really good healer... Dral, Insurgent, Strag, Floi... you can't kill anyone in their group. You can only hope that your healer is equally as geared so that you can be engaged in a standoff the entire match doing moot damage.</span></p><p>D) really requires a go od tank that can taunt well.  Not being able to target the healer accounts for much more of the reason you can't get to them than the immunies you speak of.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It really doesn't require a tank that taunts well. Tanks get so many taunts with such long range that all they have to do is stand right next to the healer and hit his 3-4 buttons and thats about as much skill as it takes. The way crusaders and berserkers are built, as long as he's at least semi geared the tank won't die. And no i'm not just talking about not being able to target the healer, I'm talking about none of my stun/interrupt rotation working at all on healers. Half the time I try to stun or stiffle the healer is immune in some way shape or form and if he's not immune he has a good chance to resist or reflect it.</span></p><p>---------------------------------------------------------</p><p>When you think about the opposite side of the equation:</p><p>Scouts and Tanks and Mages who</p><p>A) taken a long time to get gear in both pvp and pve</p><p>B) Work together well as a group.</p><p>Then they win.   There damage output from a group perspective is super high.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">No it's not. I run in a group with a pally, warden, warlock, warlock, conjy, wizard all the time and we're all completely 100% pvp geared. Unless we catch them by surprised and blow them up with the initial wave of BoDs, Rifts, and Fusions, we're not gonna beat them all. Once the healer recovers from the shockwave (and they usually do in between the immunities, wards, and resists) the healer will start rezzing the ones that did die, and easily be able to keep them up going forward. The window of time in between taunts to effectively single target kill a specific target is too small if the other players have good gear and AOE heals usually do a real good job of keeping them up until the healer actually targets them.</span></p><p>Your all thinking relative to a 1v1.  This is not a 1v1 game.  This is a group game.  There is no 1v1 bgs. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I'm not just thinking of 1v1. I don't 1v1. I ONLY group. In fact in my original post I specifically said that healers are impossible to kill in GROUPS although for 1v1 this holds true as well.</span></p><p>You get a group together with the right DPS all you want is 1 healer, the rest will be focused on as much damage as possible.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I'm wondering where you've been since the expansion and if you're blind. I'm sure you've been one of those healers that can keep your group up through a x3 DPS.</span></p><p>It's too bad SOE has not made a ladder system with rewards you would see a lot more serious BGs than you do now.   Right now u see a ton of randoms getting dominated by a few organized groups.  I've played on both sides. </p><p>SOE needs to add a carrot for more organized group play to encourage more serious grouping.  Or u will always get posts like this one.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You get posts like this one when it's unbalanced. You really need to wake up and take a look around around, maybe even borrow one of your friends well geared DPS toons for a while and play one in pvp. Go up against a fully geared pvp healers group and see how many people you kill then come back and post again. I think your perspective will have changed.</span></p></blockquote>

ailen
06-15-2010, 09:38 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Healers are not as OP as many make it out and as for the Banshee hoop and its T9 upgrade please they have never been "OP" as people make them out to be annoying yes but that alone wont stop a good dps'r from flatbacking a healer...as Fritz said coordination has always been a critical key for a winning pvp grp...what we have now is nothing  like that.</p></blockquote><p>I don't even know how to respond to this so I guess I won't.</p><p>I'll make a general statement here, so please look at it from the other side.</p><p>When you have healers that can withstand 10 people beating on them, without fear of either A dying, or B running out of power.  That's broken. don't think it happens all the time?  That's called DENIAL.  I don't think its a problem with Healer mechanics so much as its a problem GAMEWIDE for all classes.  The new stats, crit bonus, potency etc, combined with ward procs and power procs etc in  PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER game, has broken it.</p><p>You gotta have INSANE dps or 3 people able to chain knockback a healer to kill them... (decent ones that is)  that's broken... it used to be a healer got great heals but at the cost of dps and mitigation.. they borrowed these from other classes by grouping.  Tanks had great mitigation at the cost of dps and no heals.. they borrowed these from other classes by grouping.  mages had great dps at the cost of mitigation and no heals.. they borrowed tehse from other classes by grouping.</p><p>When did healers think it was a requirement for them to tank ?</p><p>Now you have these procs and mit and all these broken mechanics taking the "drawbacks" out of the game.</p><p>it doesn't translate well... tanks with good dps and heals ..  healers with good mitigation and dps, sorcs with broken ward / mitigation aa builds...  scouts that autoattack for how much? </p><p>It's all broken.. not just healers.. Potency and Crit bonus when combined with % to crit and all of it enabled in PVP?  BROKEN.</p>

Sapphy
06-15-2010, 09:46 PM
<p>Showing that healers can be taken out when an entire group of coordinated dps classes is on them doesn't equal them being vulnerable in group combat.  You need to consider the group of the healer as well.  </p>

Texan345
06-16-2010, 07:47 PM
<p>Has anyone else noticed an ongoing trend in these forums? Really good concerned pvpers make a post about imbalance in pvp and all the bad players are quick to jump on the thread and scream "don't touch my broken abilities and/or class, everything is fine as it is!!!!"</p>

Blambil
06-16-2010, 10:24 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Texan345 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Holy... Healers.</p><p>If their main stat line stacked wisdom didn't make it so easy to resist mage spells...</p></blockquote><p>Wisdom is not used for calculating chances to outright resist spells anymore. It was changed to sta quite a few updates ago.</p></blockquote><p>To be fair.</p><p>WIS is still used for determining resist mitigationSTA is now used for determining outright resist rates</p><p>while much better than before, it still stacks the deck.. healers don't really have to worry as much about resists, since they gain resists every time they put WIS gear on..</p>

Orthureon
06-16-2010, 11:25 PM
<p><cite>Texan345 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Has anyone else noticed an ongoing trend in these forums? Really good concerned pvpers make a post about imbalance in pvp and all the bad players are quick to jump on the thread and scream "don't touch my broken abilities and/or class, everything is fine as it is!!!!"</p></blockquote><p>Boy did I ever, look at my post. All the poor Crusaders defending the class saying it is balanced. But anyways, all characters can take too much damage, especially healers.</p><p>You have to remember that is simply because SoE gave back the ability to get 100% Crit Mit, which was a huge complaint... and in their infinite wisdom they allowed us to further reduce all incoming damage with toughness lol. There is not much more than that to say honestly.</p>