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Vymm
06-06-2010, 03:54 AM
<p>Why is there no immunity for taunts? This is easily the dumbest thing in this entire game when 10 different tanks can taunt you literally EVERY second and you just bounce back and forth.. How do you expect us to dps these healers that are so OP now doing 5k hps in pvp when you can only stay on them for 1 second and are lucky to get 1 CA off due to the lag? Did you really intend these group pvp fights to last for 30+ minutes or more because you can't stay on a healer for more then 1 second? How is it balanced at all to be permanently taunted to a tank every second when nearly all the other CC abilities have immunity timers? This is seriously ruining the game and if you want to save pvp it needs to be dealt with. </p>

Naggasaki
06-06-2010, 04:51 AM
<p>I feel your frustration, I really do. But to be frank, it sounds like the tanks are at least doing their jobs. And as far as getting an immunity to all other CC abilities I have to throw the BS flag. I can't count the number of times I've been stun locked by a couple of Brigands.</p><p>OH....maybe you could just joust really fast on that ubar mount we have? (i kid)</p>

Cantor
06-06-2010, 04:56 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel your frustration, I really do. But to be frank, it sounds like the tanks are at least doing their jobs. And as far as getting an immunity to all other CC abilities I have to throw the BS flag. I can't count the number of times I've been stun locked by a couple of Brigands.</p><p>OH....maybe you could just joust really fast on that ubar mount we have? (i kid)</p></blockquote><p>You can get immunity for my fear spell, for my daze and for my snares. Then, I want immunity for your taunts.</p>

Naggasaki
06-06-2010, 05:01 AM
<p>I'm not sure about this one so please don't take it to be super snyde, but I beleive either freedom of action or freedom of mind pots will work wonders for you.</p>

Grimmig
06-07-2010, 12:45 AM
<p>As far as I know, there is a potion which gives taunt immunity for 10 seconds. It's possible to buy from the PvP gear merchants for (as I remember) 12g and 50k status</p><p>Freedom of mind and freedom of action don't make taunt immu but it would be nice to get also a craftable potion for this. Even in PvE it could be usefull sometimes.</p>

Omgidomms
06-07-2010, 02:47 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I feel your frustration, I really do. But to be frank, it sounds like the tanks are at least doing their jobs. And as far as getting an immunity to all other CC abilities I have to throw the BS flag. I can't count the number of times I've been stun locked by a couple of Brigands.</p><p>OH....maybe you could just joust really fast on that ubar mount we have? (i kid)</p></blockquote><p>You can get immunity for my fear spell, for my daze and for my snares. Then, I want immunity for your taunts.</p></blockquote><p>Actually you can still stack snares...</p>

Sapphy
06-07-2010, 03:29 AM
<p>I definitely agree, taunting needs to be reduced or the dmg taking ability of tanks needs to be reduced so that they have to be reserved in how much they can throw out these moves, it seems like taunting is becoming a better form of crowd control now than control spells, especially the bruiser feign death lock thing, namely because they don't have the same kind of dispel options, immunities control spells do, they can prevent people externally from helping you, their durations are longer than most control spells, and don't break on dmg (not to mention penetration).  Tank classes with taunts are easily controlling group matches too much for too long, combined with a healer a good tank can taunt off any dmg that might hit vulnerable members of their party and as a result have healing focus on them giving an almost inpenetrable advantage.  I do think though that some taunting may be a good idea against healers because healing is soo strong atm and taunts give a much needed weakness to the class, but its also causing tank classes to reap too strong of benefits over most other classes in group combat too.</p><p> Its definitely hard to see as an enchanter, having just had more various easy to find crowd control immunity options released, reuse times of items with these qualities lowered, control spell penetration lowered and since the expansion the general durations and immunities of them nerfed to the point where against high level players crowd control is essentially useless or too weak to capitalize on.</p>

BlueEternal
06-07-2010, 04:16 AM
<p><cite>Sapphyra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Wall of Text</blockquote><p>You just described what a tank is exactly supposed to do in this giant wall of text. Taunts are fine as they are..the real immunity we need is knockback immunity imo.</p>

Hanari
06-07-2010, 04:39 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p><cite>Sapphyra wrote:</cite></p> <p>Taunts are fine as they are.</p></blockquote> <p> And taunts are the best thing in that whole pvp-system imo. Never touch this!</p> <p>[Removed for Content] do u expect Vymm, if u fight against 10 tanks?</p>

Sapphy
06-07-2010, 05:26 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sapphyra wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Wall of Text</blockquote><p>You just described what a tank is exactly supposed to do in this giant wall of text. Taunts are fine as they are..the real immunity we need is knockback immunity imo.</p></blockquote><p>That being what they are supposed to do doesn't justify the magnitude of it.  Taunts may be good to have as tanks but when tanks are clearly holding off entire groups bc no one can target anything but them and the healers which already need almost a full group of dps on them aren't getting any dps then in my opinion the mechanic is overpowered.  Some of the tank classes are just too strong atm... and its lessening any amount of skill compared between players in pvp and making it more about what class you picked.</p>

Cantor
06-07-2010, 08:03 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually you can still stack snares...</p></blockquote><p>Yea but the point is that you can get immunity for snares. I want the same for taunts.</p>

TheVekk
06-07-2010, 11:43 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sapphyra wrote:</cite></p><p>Taunts are fine as they are.</p></blockquote><p>And taunts are the best thing in that whole pvp-system imo. Never touch this!</p><p>[Removed for Content] do u expect Vymm, if u fight against 10 tanks?</p></blockquote><p>Its not like he is choosing to fight the 10 tanks he is probly trying to do the Warfields...so its either he trys to help FP win or just give up like half the Freeps have and just take it up the A**.</p><p>For those that think the little item from the pvp merchant that give tuant immuntiy for 10 seconds is enoguh to time this lag to actualy kill something.... all I have to say I LoL.</p><p>But seriously this is the way I see it.</p><p>In a grp vs grp situation (6v6) taunts work fine, the grps may have 1 or 2 tanks depending, this would be a good fight and probly equal alot of fun.</p><p>In Warfield where you  literaly have grps that run with 3 healers and 3 tanks, plus greys taunting and what not, AND on side massivly out numbering the other side everytime. tuant are extremly broken.</p><p>Tanks imo are probly one of if not the most OP classes in the game. they tuant, take almost no dmg, do sick dps, and can heal/ward themselfs.</p><p>Im sure people will say this but that is there job to do those, no its not a tanks job to heal, tuant, and dps there job is to lock down and take dmg. not to parse 10-20k or full heal themselfs 3 times before they die.</p>

Vymm
06-08-2010, 06:09 PM
<p>The guardian one is just stupid now every time you hit anyone in their group you instantly go to the tank.. How are we supposed to burn the healers down if we can't change target ever? There's a big difference between being taunted every 5 or 6 seconds and being perma taunted and unable to hit a healer for more then 1 hit.. </p>

Vlahkmaak
06-08-2010, 06:37 PM
<p><cite>Vymm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The guardian one is just stupid now every time you hit anyone in their group you instantly go to the tank.. How are we supposed to burn the healers down if we can't change target ever? There's a big difference between being taunted every 5 or 6 seconds and being perma taunted and unable to hit a healer for more then 1 hit.. </p></blockquote><p>Moderate and group moderate is not a 100% success chance nor anywhere close to it.  It is the job of the guardian to protect our group members - we have 3 passive tools to do this with, 4 now counting group moderate because I cannot fathom any guardian being dumb enough not to have at least 1 point into this skill.  We also have our intercede and sentiniel sphere to try to decrease grp damage.  You will not find us anywhere high on the parse list in a pvp fight if we are doing our jobs properly.  We cannot shadow step to anyone, decrease their nox resistance by 3-4k and then do a massive noxious  attck followed by a large melee attck with an 8 second stifle component (6 in pvp now?  Been awhile since my ranger was an assassin).    DPS and target selection/planning is your job, ours is to taunt and protect.</p>

spudsmckenzie2
06-08-2010, 08:01 PM
<p>/autoattack 0 is your friend...look into it and youll see what i mean</p>

Toxicz
06-08-2010, 08:02 PM
<p>I will agree fighting the zerg with 20 sks and a few pallys and zerkers is annoying and taunts should be fixed to some extent, but its honestly last thing soe needs to worry about with class balancing for pvp.</p><p>They should look at the predator trees "predator's final trick" and take the 40% critical bonus off of it in pvp tbh =p.</p>

Roald
06-08-2010, 10:52 PM
<p><cite>Vymm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is easily the dumbest thing in this entire game</p></blockquote><p>You must not play much, lol.</p>

Portbott
06-08-2010, 11:38 PM
<p>It's whatever. Touching taunts isn't going to be done in moderation if they are touched at all, and unfortunately, I feel there is nothing wrong with the way they work now. Sure, you can be taunt locked. Strategize. Get distance. Vymm, you're all about that Shadow Step and trying to blow your load in the first few seconds of a fight. If it's not working for you, change it up.</p><p>They're annoying, but I hardly feel like it's something that needs to be given much attention to.</p>

Sprin
06-09-2010, 02:52 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Strategize. </p></blockquote><p>this...</p><p>L2play... know what classes have what type of taunts and learn to avoid them, and roll with healers that know how to cure, if your not being cured of every detrimental thats put on you, then l2group... every taunt out there is cureable... and pretty much all of them are avoidable... dont blame everyone else becaue you dont know how to play the game tbh...</p>

Orthureon
06-09-2010, 02:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Strategize. </p></blockquote><p>this...</p><p>L2play... know what classes have what type of taunts and learn to avoid them, and roll with healers that know how to cure, if your not being cured of every detrimental thats put on you, then l2group... every taunt out there is cureable... and pretty much all of them are avoidable... dont blame everyone else becaue you dont know how to play the game tbh...</p></blockquote><p>I just run out of range when I am getting taunt locked, shut off autoattack, then run back in and kill the healer. It doesn't always work that smoothly but sometimes it does lol. I do agree with the main post there should be a short immunity to taunts. But if there is more than one tank present... which there will always be like 10 crusaders then yes you should be taunt locked. But they should definitely make a mastercrafted 2m recast, 15s duration taunt immunity potion, though 2m recast might be too low.</p>

alabama
06-09-2010, 02:12 PM
<p>the only threads i see on this board anymore are people crying about the <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">one</span></strong> thing thier class has problems with and trying to get it nerfed instead of figuring out how to counter it.</p><p>keep it up though, the devs are listening to you and hopefully soon we will all have the same 3 buttons, wear the exact same gear, and look the same. then i can just go park out in the open turn on auto attack while i watch tv and have my 50/50 chance to win the fight.</p>

MMKA
06-09-2010, 02:54 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><p>L2play... know what classes have what type of taunts and learn to avoid them, and roll with healers that know how to cure, if your not being cured of every detrimental thats put on you, then l2group... every taunt out there is cureable... and pretty much all of them are avoidable... dont blame everyone else becaue you dont know how to play the game tbh...</p></blockquote><p>The healers should be curing but it is impossible with a 5s recast time for cures in pvp when every class puts multiple detrimentals on every .5 seconds. Remove the recast time for cures in pvp - problem solved!</p>

labi
06-09-2010, 03:32 PM
<p>to everone saying its a tanks job to protect there grps.... i can buy that.... but then you better take away there ability to dps heal ward snare and stun...... doesnt sound so good of a deal now does it</p>

Vlahkmaak
06-09-2010, 04:06 PM
<p>Maybe we should look at taking away the ability of scouts to proc more than 1 damage effect at a time in addition to the ability to using damage, fettering, and debuffing poisons too should be disabled for pvp.  After all, why should your auto attack + the 10 proc abilities that follow your auto attack be allowed to hit since their is no immunity to proc damage?  If you are seriously saying there should be a 3-5 sec immunity to taunts then in return are you willing to give an immunity to fettering poison - once landed all players should be immune to fetting for the duration of its lasting effect.  Also snare stacking by scouts should be disabled.  And of course immunities should be given at a rate of 1.8x per minute to be immune to caustic, mental breach, and vitality potions.</p><p>Everytime a scout hits a healer or other class with a mental breach, fettering, or damage poison proc the healer or other class should have an immunity to the next mental breach proc. </p><p>DPS classes just want the ability to run in and insta kill people so we can go back to the days of Everscout.  Taunts are working fine in group pvp.  I have never taunted anyone to death 1:1.  Groups still die, healers still have the ability to use a grp heal/ward when taunted onto a tank, and when tanks taunt alot of people on to themselves we take spike damage especially if running with just 1 healer and not having our own wards/heals on demand.   DPS classes in a grp working together to maximize and time their damge together can still do significant spike damage when assisting and working as a team.</p><p>Solo scouts out running around on the flanks of grp/grp/raid pvp are stille ffective at dropping greens, blues, even or orange con solos and still effective at mana tapping healers from range.  I have a target macro when on my ranger to get back onto my intended target to mana drain healers - I have no problem getting on my target when on my ranger/necro so I fail to see the issue with taunts playing from both sides of equation.</p><p>/tar ABC for the win if you dont have a few premade target macros to fill in during combat selection.</p>

JimmyC01
06-09-2010, 04:18 PM
<p><cite>Vymm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why is there no immunity for taunts? This is easily the dumbest thing in this entire game when 10 different tanks can taunt you literally EVERY second and you just bounce back and forth.. How do you expect us to dps these healers that are so OP now doing 5k hps in pvp when you can only stay on them for 1 second and are lucky to get 1 CA off due to the lag? Did you really intend these group pvp fights to last for 30+ minutes or more because you can't stay on a healer for more then 1 second? How is it balanced at all to be permanently taunted to a tank every second when nearly all the other CC abilities have immunity timers? This is seriously ruining the game and if you want to save pvp it needs to be dealt with. </p></blockquote><p>Says the guy who hits auto attack button and stifles you forever and has you dead in 2 seconds. What else is the tanks supposed to do...let the healer just die? Without these stupid tuants the assissan will just run around at will and kill everyone without even a spec of damage to them...oh wait they already do. Anything else you want?</p>

Ralpmet
06-09-2010, 04:20 PM
<p>I think vymm is just fishing to kill even more people than he already does. People figured out how to kill him and now he wants immunity from it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

labi
06-09-2010, 04:41 PM
<p>your complaining that dps'ers can dps..... nobody here is gona say *ZZOMG THAT SCOUT CANT BE KILLED**</p><p>no the issue with tanks is when there geared up they cant be killed and they do good dmg and have lots of utility in pvp....</p>

Vlahkmaak
06-09-2010, 05:22 PM
<p><cite>labi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>your complaining that dps'ers can dps..... nobody here is gona say *ZZOMG THAT SCOUT CANT BE KILLED**</p><p>no the issue with tanks is when there geared up they cant be killed and they do good dmg and have lots of utility in pvp....</p></blockquote><p>Seriously - learn to identify sarcasm and read the enite post: On my RANGER and NECRO (DPS classes in case you did not know this) I have NO TROUBLE at all getting onto my target once taunt off.</p>

labi
06-09-2010, 06:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>labi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>your complaining that dps'ers can dps..... nobody here is gona say *ZZOMG THAT SCOUT CANT BE KILLED**</p><p>no the issue with tanks is when there geared up they cant be killed and they do good dmg and have lots of utility in pvp....</p></blockquote><p>Seriously - learn to identify sarcasm and read the enite post: On my RANGER and NECRO (DPS classes in case you did not know this) I have NO TROUBLE at all getting onto my target once taunt off.</p></blockquote><p>um theres a diffrence between a range caster and someone who has to be close to the target....</p><p>and seriously try and get more off topic......</p>

Arieneth
06-09-2010, 07:05 PM
<p>what this discussion needs is a compromise.</p><p>we can't take away a tanks ability to do their primary job of taunting. and since SOE fails so hard at fixing pvp and essentially all fights are zerg fights...i can see perma taunt locks as being overly frustrating.</p><p>the best way i can think of to fix this is itemize pvp gear better. we have gear to proc taunts. there should be gear itemized to make the wearer immune to taunt LOCKS...not being taunted, being locked. say 10-15 seconds of taunt lock immunity.</p><p>this will accomplish two things at once:</p><p>first: taunt lock immunity lets tanks still perform their jobs as normal, gives dps classes the ability to perform their jobs better and it puts an element of skill back in the players hands. tanks have to work to taunt the right classes and dps has to work to find their target while not being glued to 45 different tanks.</p><p>second: pvp gear will gain an additional edge over pve gear than just toughness. since the beginning of time, players have complained about how much better pve gear is for pvp. however, if you give pvp gear taunt lock immunity, it provides pvp gear with an added bonus. if you don't want to be taunt locked, take off your pve gear. if you insist on wearing your pve gear...deal with the taunts.</p>

labi
06-09-2010, 07:24 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>what this discussion needs is a compromise.</p><p>we can't take away a tanks ability to do their primary job of taunting. and since SOE fails so hard at fixing pvp and essentially all fights are zerg fights...i can see perma taunt locks as being overly frustrating.</p><p>the best way i can think of to fix this is itemize pvp gear better. we have gear to proc taunts. there should be gear itemized to make the wearer immune to taunt LOCKS...not being taunted, being locked. say 10-15 seconds of taunt lock immunity.</p><p>this will accomplish two things at once:</p><p>first: taunt lock immunity lets tanks still perform their jobs as normal, gives dps classes the ability to perform their jobs better and it puts an element of skill back in the players hands. tanks have to work to taunt the right classes and dps has to work to find their target while not being glued to 45 different tanks.</p><p>second: pvp gear will gain an additional edge over pve gear than just toughness. since the beginning of time, players have complained about how much better pve gear is for pvp. however, if you give pvp gear taunt lock immunity, it provides pvp gear with an added bonus. if you don't want to be taunt locked, take off your pve gear. if you insist on wearing your pve gear...deal with the taunts.</p></blockquote><p>i think this is something all mmo's should stay away from. You shouldnt have to rely on a chance of something procing to win/lose a fight. they need to fix the ratio in gameplay....</p><p>as it is now... 1 tank + 1 healer...  if that tank  gets attacked by 7-10   and that tank is geared hes going to survive... and not even for 10-15-20 seconds... he can last entire bg's and longer...</p><p>now id agree if he could taunt and surive that dmg for 10-20seconds max with 1 healer... ok let him taunt away eventualy tanks gona die.... but thats now how it works the tank just lives and lives.</p>

EQ2Player
06-16-2010, 11:41 AM
<p>Taunting is fine. It allows a tank to be a tank instead of a heavy-plated low-dpsing bozo that just fills a group slot. Remove it, or make easy ways around it,  and you dumb down the encounters.</p>

ailen
06-16-2010, 11:53 AM
<p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sapphyra wrote:</cite></p><p>Taunts are fine as they are.</p></blockquote><p>And taunts are the best thing in that whole pvp-system imo. Never touch this!</p><p>[Removed for Content] do u expect Vymm, if u fight against 10 tanks?</p></blockquote><p>Its not like he is choosing to fight the 10 tanks he is probly trying to do the Warfields...so its either he trys to help FP win or just give up like half the Freeps have and just take it up the A**.</p><p>For those that think the little item from the pvp merchant that give tuant immuntiy for 10 seconds is enoguh to time this lag to actualy kill something.... all I have to say I LoL.</p><p>But seriously this is the way I see it.</p><p>In a grp vs grp situation (6v6) taunts work fine, the grps may have 1 or 2 tanks depending, this would be a good fight and probly equal alot of fun.</p><p>In Warfield where you  literaly have grps that run with 3 healers and 3 tanks, plus greys taunting and what not, AND on side massivly out numbering the other side everytime. tuant are extremly broken.</p><p>Tanks imo are probly one of if not the most OP classes in the game. they tuant, take almost no dmg, do sick dps, and can heal/ward themselfs.</p><p>Im sure people will say this but that is there job to do those, no its not a tanks job to heal, tuant, and dps there job is to lock down and take dmg. not to parse 10-20k or full heal themselfs 3 times before they die.</p></blockquote><p>Then by this admission you'd have to also say that its not a healer's job to take damage or do dps?</p><p>I've argued this point all along.  We don't have clear roles in this game anymore.  I personally don't think there is a problem with "taunts" as they have existed in the past, what is broken is the passive taunting abilities that most tanks have now.  Berserker taunt on its myth clicky, sk taunt on lifetap,  it used to be that only paladins and guardians got some sort of passive taunting ability but they were range specific or in the case of amends only usable on one person.  I can't tell you enough how many times i have been out pvp'ing on my ranger, hit someone and then end up with NO target, get feared, get taunted NOWHERE near the person doing the taunting.  That is what is breaking it.  You think most people have the first clue how to taunt in this game?  you're kidding right?</p><p>As far as your comment about "knockback" immunity Naroc?  That's absurd.   A GOOD tank does two things, always did two things very well.  Taunt people off his squishy friends, and do his CC.. (KNOCKBACKS) on the people that are trying to cast.  Berserker has 2 interrupts, but the other plate tanks have none.. how do they stand a chance against someone like a cleric with "steadfast?"  KNOCKBACKS. </p><p>I'm so sick of this game and the petty idiocy of what people are calling for nerfs on... the classes are fine, the MECHANICS of the game are broken.  CRIT BONUS, CRIT MULTIPLIER, CRIT MIT, TOUGHNESS all of these are what has the game stupid atm... if we fixed those, then these tanks that are taunting all of these high powered dps classes would die no matter how many healers were healing them...  I'm sorry, Tanks living forever because of how the mechanics work is flat out idiocy... The SAME problems are applying to HEALERS, the SAME problems are applying to Sorcerer AA builds.  Why can't people see the REAL issue instead of screaming nerf on individual classes.  They spent how many years "kinda" balancing things, and then flushed it all down the toilet with the change in game mechanics, not a change in classes.</p>

Orthureon
06-16-2010, 02:07 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then by this admission you'd have to also say that its not a healer's job to take damage or do dps?</p><p>I've argued this point all along.  We don't have clear roles in this game anymore.  I personally don't think there is a problem with "taunts" as they have existed in the past, what is broken is the passive taunting abilities that most tanks have now.  Berserker taunt on its myth clicky, sk taunt on lifetap,  it used to be that only paladins and guardians got some sort of passive taunting ability but they were range specific or in the case of amends only usable on one person.  I can't tell you enough how many times i have been out pvp'ing on my ranger, hit someone and then end up with NO target, get feared, get taunted NOWHERE near the person doing the taunting.  That is what is breaking it.  You think most people have the first clue how to taunt in this game?  you're kidding right?</p><p>As far as your comment about "knockback" immunity Naroc?  That's absurd.   A GOOD tank does two things, always did two things very well.  Taunt people off his squishy friends, and do his CC.. (KNOCKBACKS) on the people that are trying to cast.  Berserker has 2 interrupts, but the other plate tanks have none.. how do they stand a chance against someone like a cleric with "steadfast?"  KNOCKBACKS. </p><p>I'm so sick of this game and the petty idiocy of what people are calling for nerfs on... the classes are fine, the MECHANICS of the game are broken.  CRIT BONUS, CRIT MULTIPLIER, CRIT MIT, TOUGHNESS all of these are what has the game stupid atm... if we fixed those, then these tanks that are taunting all of these high powered dps classes would die no matter how many healers were healing them...  I'm sorry, Tanks living forever because of how the mechanics work is flat out idiocy... The SAME problems are applying to HEALERS, the SAME problems are applying to Sorcerer AA builds.  Why can't people see the REAL issue instead of screaming nerf on individual classes.  They spent how many years "kinda" balancing things, and then flushed it all down the toilet with the change in game mechanics, not a change in classes.</p></blockquote><p>Ailen, I respect you, I really do, you have a balanced view on things. However, can you honestly say if they tone down all the stats that anyone can get classes will be balanced? If you say all classes are balanced I will kindly ask you to roll these classes.</p><ul><li>Guardian and then a Shadowknight</li><li>Defiler then an Inquisitor</li><li>Dirge and then a Brigand</li><li>Necro then a Wizard</li></ul>

Notsovilepriest
06-16-2010, 02:16 PM
<p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then by this admission you'd have to also say that its not a healer's job to take damage or do dps?</p><p>I've argued this point all along.  We don't have clear roles in this game anymore.  I personally don't think there is a problem with "taunts" as they have existed in the past, what is broken is the passive taunting abilities that most tanks have now.  Berserker taunt on its myth clicky, sk taunt on lifetap,  it used to be that only paladins and guardians got some sort of passive taunting ability but they were range specific or in the case of amends only usable on one person.  I can't tell you enough how many times i have been out pvp'ing on my ranger, hit someone and then end up with NO target, get feared, get taunted NOWHERE near the person doing the taunting.  That is what is breaking it.  You think most people have the first clue how to taunt in this game?  you're kidding right?</p><p>As far as your comment about "knockback" immunity Naroc?  That's absurd.   A GOOD tank does two things, always did two things very well.  Taunt people off his squishy friends, and do his CC.. (KNOCKBACKS) on the people that are trying to cast.  Berserker has 2 interrupts, but the other plate tanks have none.. how do they stand a chance against someone like a cleric with "steadfast?"  KNOCKBACKS. </p><p>I'm so sick of this game and the petty idiocy of what people are calling for nerfs on... the classes are fine, the MECHANICS of the game are broken.  CRIT BONUS, CRIT MULTIPLIER, CRIT MIT, TOUGHNESS all of these are what has the game stupid atm... if we fixed those, then these tanks that are taunting all of these high powered dps classes would die no matter how many healers were healing them...  I'm sorry, Tanks living forever because of how the mechanics work is flat out idiocy... The SAME problems are applying to HEALERS, the SAME problems are applying to Sorcerer AA builds.  Why can't people see the REAL issue instead of screaming nerf on individual classes.  They spent how many years "kinda" balancing things, and then flushed it all down the toilet with the change in game mechanics, not a change in classes.</p></blockquote><p>Ailen, I respect you, I really do, you have a balanced view on things. However, can you honestly say if they tone down all the stats that anyone can get classes will be balanced? If you say all classes are balanced I will kindly ask you to roll these classes.</p><ul><li>Guardian and then a Shadowknight</li><li>Defiler then an Inquisitor</li><li>Dirge and then a Brigand</li><li>Necro then a Wizard</li></ul></blockquote><p>He plays the second best PvP tank agro wise with good survivability too, which I would venture to guess, he isn't one that enjoys challenges.</p>

Cantor
06-16-2010, 03:46 PM
<p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ailen, I respect you, I really do, you have a balanced view on things. However, can you honestly say if they tone down all the stats that anyone can get classes will be balanced? If you say all classes are balanced I will kindly ask you to roll these classes.</p><ul><li>Guardian and then a Shadowknight</li><li>Defiler then an Inquisitor</li><li>Dirge and then a Brigand</li><li>Necro then a Wizard</li></ul></blockquote><p>Lol, yes, try a Drige, please. Olihin, you too.</p>

ailen
06-16-2010, 07:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then by this admission you'd have to also say that its not a healer's job to take damage or do dps?</p><p>I've argued this point all along.  We don't have clear roles in this game anymore.  I personally don't think there is a problem with "taunts" as they have existed in the past, what is broken is the passive taunting abilities that most tanks have now.  Berserker taunt on its myth clicky, sk taunt on lifetap,  it used to be that only paladins and guardians got some sort of passive taunting ability but they were range specific or in the case of amends only usable on one person.  I can't tell you enough how many times i have been out pvp'ing on my ranger, hit someone and then end up with NO target, get feared, get taunted NOWHERE near the person doing the taunting.  That is what is breaking it.  You think most people have the first clue how to taunt in this game?  you're kidding right?</p><p>As far as your comment about "knockback" immunity Naroc?  That's absurd.   A GOOD tank does two things, always did two things very well.  Taunt people off his squishy friends, and do his CC.. (KNOCKBACKS) on the people that are trying to cast.  Berserker has 2 interrupts, but the other plate tanks have none.. how do they stand a chance against someone like a cleric with "steadfast?"  KNOCKBACKS. </p><p>I'm so sick of this game and the petty idiocy of what people are calling for nerfs on... the classes are fine, the MECHANICS of the game are broken.  CRIT BONUS, CRIT MULTIPLIER, CRIT MIT, TOUGHNESS all of these are what has the game stupid atm... if we fixed those, then these tanks that are taunting all of these high powered dps classes would die no matter how many healers were healing them...  I'm sorry, Tanks living forever because of how the mechanics work is flat out idiocy... The SAME problems are applying to HEALERS, the SAME problems are applying to Sorcerer AA builds.  Why can't people see the REAL issue instead of screaming nerf on individual classes.  They spent how many years "kinda" balancing things, and then flushed it all down the toilet with the change in game mechanics, not a change in classes.</p></blockquote><p>Ailen, I respect you, I really do, you have a balanced view on things. However, can you honestly say if they tone down all the stats that anyone can get classes will be balanced? If you say all classes are balanced I will kindly ask you to roll these classes.</p><ul><li>Guardian and then a Shadowknight</li><li>Defiler then an Inquisitor</li><li>Dirge and then a Brigand</li><li>Necro then a Wizard</li></ul></blockquote><p>He plays the second best PvP tank agro wise with good survivability too, which I would venture to guess, he isn't one that enjoys challenges.</p></blockquote><p>Just shut up already, its clear you haven't read my posts.  all you do here is argue with people, go to EQ2FLAMES if that's what you want... enjoy yourself over there, sounds like its more your style.</p>

ailen
06-16-2010, 07:37 PM
<p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then by this admission you'd have to also say that its not a healer's job to take damage or do dps?</p><p>I've argued this point all along.  We don't have clear roles in this game anymore.  I personally don't think there is a problem with "taunts" as they have existed in the past, what is broken is the passive taunting abilities that most tanks have now.  Berserker taunt on its myth clicky, sk taunt on lifetap,  it used to be that only paladins and guardians got some sort of passive taunting ability but they were range specific or in the case of amends only usable on one person.  I can't tell you enough how many times i have been out pvp'ing on my ranger, hit someone and then end up with NO target, get feared, get taunted NOWHERE near the person doing the taunting.  That is what is breaking it.  You think most people have the first clue how to taunt in this game?  you're kidding right?</p><p>As far as your comment about "knockback" immunity Naroc?  That's absurd.   A GOOD tank does two things, always did two things very well.  Taunt people off his squishy friends, and do his CC.. (KNOCKBACKS) on the people that are trying to cast.  Berserker has 2 interrupts, but the other plate tanks have none.. how do they stand a chance against someone like a cleric with "steadfast?"  KNOCKBACKS. </p><p>I'm so sick of this game and the petty idiocy of what people are calling for nerfs on... the classes are fine, the MECHANICS of the game are broken.  CRIT BONUS, CRIT MULTIPLIER, CRIT MIT, TOUGHNESS all of these are what has the game stupid atm... if we fixed those, then these tanks that are taunting all of these high powered dps classes would die no matter how many healers were healing them...  I'm sorry, Tanks living forever because of how the mechanics work is flat out idiocy... The SAME problems are applying to HEALERS, the SAME problems are applying to Sorcerer AA builds.  Why can't people see the REAL issue instead of screaming nerf on individual classes.  They spent how many years "kinda" balancing things, and then flushed it all down the toilet with the change in game mechanics, not a change in classes.</p></blockquote><p>Ailen, I respect you, I really do, you have a balanced view on things. However, can you honestly say if they tone down all the stats that anyone can get classes will be balanced? If you say all classes are balanced I will kindly ask you to roll these classes.</p><ul><li>Guardian and then a Shadowknight</li><li>Defiler then an Inquisitor</li><li>Dirge and then a Brigand</li><li>Necro then a Wizard</li></ul></blockquote><p>They never had 1:1 class balance.. never.  I never played guardian, but I have played Zerker and SK/Paladin off and on for about 4 years now.  I am not the healing type... never have been</p><p>I have a dirge and a brigand...  in fact the name everyone that ever knows me by is Maliak, the original pvp character of mine, brigand who I levelled over the years but never maintained... gear isn't good spells aren't upgraded...  but I know full well what they can do...   My dirge is undergeared also... but I get out on him from time to time..  I do enjoy a challenge, but the only challenge right now is dealing with people that are overgeared...</p><p>Caster?  no thanks, don't care to try it...</p><p>Truth is, I make all of these comments based upon my own observations of this game.  I don't think I know everything, but I know what I see and I see this.</p><p>There is a cutoff point where characters become gods.  It seems to be the raiders that are way over the top.  I think it might be the crit bonus overriding the PVP crit mitigation of the PVP gear or something, but there is a certain point where damage just goes way over the top.  But at the same time, if you're under this point, you can't kill anyone.  Sure the answer to some would be to just tell noobs to suck it up and take it and get gear, but that's just dumb.  That's broken mechanics when a full 6 people that are even crappy geared can't take out a single player of any class in any gear.  Its like, GODMODE is the norm now. </p><p>Gear should offer ADVANTAGES not GUARANTEES to players.  You reduce the idiocy of the stats on this gear which is mostly due to the change in recent mechanics and you'll bring people more down to earth.</p><p>Balance classes 1 v 1?  Can't be done, they have NEVER been able to do this, not ever, but what they did do was use the old crutch that they balance for group v group pvp.. but now... groups can literally fight groups FOREVER unless someone just has some flat out ridiculous gear, or whoever has raided the most in the past 3 months wins.  What is the point in that?  Make all these stats work in PVE because lets face it, that's all that really matters to some people, and use DIFFERENT rules for PVP.  Tanks should be able to die slower, but not die NEVER.  Healers should be able to take a few shots while healing their group but regen power and mitigate 2-3 people's dps ?  That's so dumb.</p><p>Passive taunts on tanks ... that's where it's broken.  I used to have to chase people around and literally spend entire fights locking dps down off my healers and mages so they had a chance to do their work. now you just get buffs that allow you to DPS while protecting your group.  Since when was it the right of tanks to put out scout level dps?  It'd be OK to let a tank live a very long time, if they dind' thave 3500 autoattacks against regularly geared players.  I have different phrases for the type of defense I'm going to run based upon my group makeup and what we're fighting.  I remember a time when if I taunted too much it was a death sentence... now for pete's sake I can throw up GIBE in a raid v raid fight without a healer and basically never die.</p><p>THAT IS BROKEN.</p>

Vymm
06-18-2010, 03:04 AM
<p>Taunts are out of control and completely ruining pvp..  I don't want taunts removed I think they are part of the game but there needs to be some immunity or passive taunts nerfed cause it's impossible to dps anyone else for more then 1 sec.. These stupid pvp fights are lasting 30-45 mins where you are basically taunted onto the tank for the ENTIRE TIME while his 2 healers are just spam healing him. How is intended that EVERY time you hit ANYONE in the other group that you are locked to the tank for 5-10 sec.. Then once it's finally cured off you get ONE HIT on a healer or whatever and then instantly taunted back to tank again for 5-10 sec.. You think it's fun for us to sit there beating on a tank for 30-45 minutes doing zero damage and unable to change targets even with 2 healers curing taunts off us? Obviously the devs have no clue how unbalanced it is cause if they don't do something soon with taunts the way they are pvp will die completely pretty soon. </p>

Orthureon
06-18-2010, 01:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then by this admission you'd have to also say that its not a healer's job to take damage or do dps?</p><p>I've argued this point all along.  We don't have clear roles in this game anymore.  I personally don't think there is a problem with "taunts" as they have existed in the past, what is broken is the passive taunting abilities that most tanks have now.  Berserker taunt on its myth clicky, sk taunt on lifetap,  it used to be that only paladins and guardians got some sort of passive taunting ability but they were range specific or in the case of amends only usable on one person.  I can't tell you enough how many times i have been out pvp'ing on my ranger, hit someone and then end up with NO target, get feared, get taunted NOWHERE near the person doing the taunting.  That is what is breaking it.  You think most people have the first clue how to taunt in this game?  you're kidding right?</p><p>As far as your comment about "knockback" immunity Naroc?  That's absurd.   A GOOD tank does two things, always did two things very well.  Taunt people off his squishy friends, and do his CC.. (KNOCKBACKS) on the people that are trying to cast.  Berserker has 2 interrupts, but the other plate tanks have none.. how do they stand a chance against someone like a cleric with "steadfast?"  KNOCKBACKS. </p><p>I'm so sick of this game and the petty idiocy of what people are calling for nerfs on... the classes are fine, the MECHANICS of the game are broken.  CRIT BONUS, CRIT MULTIPLIER, CRIT MIT, TOUGHNESS all of these are what has the game stupid atm... if we fixed those, then these tanks that are taunting all of these high powered dps classes would die no matter how many healers were healing them...  I'm sorry, Tanks living forever because of how the mechanics work is flat out idiocy... The SAME problems are applying to HEALERS, the SAME problems are applying to Sorcerer AA builds.  Why can't people see the REAL issue instead of screaming nerf on individual classes.  They spent how many years "kinda" balancing things, and then flushed it all down the toilet with the change in game mechanics, not a change in classes.</p></blockquote><p>Ailen, I respect you, I really do, you have a balanced view on things. However, can you honestly say if they tone down all the stats that anyone can get classes will be balanced? If you say all classes are balanced I will kindly ask you to roll these classes.</p><ul><li>Guardian and then a Shadowknight</li><li>Defiler then an Inquisitor</li><li>Dirge and then a Brigand</li><li>Necro then a Wizard</li></ul></blockquote><p>They never had 1:1 class balance.. never.  I never played guardian, but I have played Zerker and SK/Paladin off and on for about 4 years now.  I am not the healing type... never have been</p><p>I have a dirge and a brigand...  in fact the name everyone that ever knows me by is Maliak, the original pvp character of mine, brigand who I levelled over the years but never maintained... gear isn't good spells aren't upgraded...  but I know full well what they can do...   My dirge is undergeared also... but I get out on him from time to time..  I do enjoy a challenge, but the only challenge right now is dealing with people that are overgeared...</p><p>Caster?  no thanks, don't care to try it...</p><p>Truth is, I make all of these comments based upon my own observations of this game.  I don't think I know everything, but I know what I see and I see this.</p><p>There is a cutoff point where characters become gods.  It seems to be the raiders that are way over the top.  I think it might be the crit bonus overriding the PVP crit mitigation of the PVP gear or something, but there is a certain point where damage just goes way over the top.  But at the same time, if you're under this point, you can't kill anyone.  Sure the answer to some would be to just tell noobs to suck it up and take it and get gear, but that's just dumb.  That's broken mechanics when a full 6 people that are even crappy geared can't take out a single player of any class in any gear.  Its like, GODMODE is the norm now. </p><p>Gear should offer ADVANTAGES not GUARANTEES to players.  You reduce the idiocy of the stats on this gear which is mostly due to the change in recent mechanics and you'll bring people more down to earth.</p><p>Balance classes 1 v 1?  Can't be done, they have NEVER been able to do this, not ever, but what they did do was use the old crutch that they balance for group v group pvp.. but now... groups can literally fight groups FOREVER unless someone just has some flat out ridiculous gear, or whoever has raided the most in the past 3 months wins.  What is the point in that?  Make all these stats work in PVE because lets face it, that's all that really matters to some people, and use DIFFERENT rules for PVP.  Tanks should be able to die slower, but not die NEVER.  Healers should be able to take a few shots while healing their group but regen power and mitigate 2-3 people's dps ?  That's so dumb.</p><p>Passive taunts on tanks ... that's where it's broken.  I used to have to chase people around and literally spend entire fights locking dps down off my healers and mages so they had a chance to do their work. now you just get buffs that allow you to DPS while protecting your group.  Since when was it the right of tanks to put out scout level dps?  It'd be OK to let a tank live a very long time, if they dind' thave 3500 autoattacks against regularly geared players.  I have different phrases for the type of defense I'm going to run based upon my group makeup and what we're fighting.  I remember a time when if I taunted too much it was a death sentence... now for pete's sake I can throw up GIBE in a raid v raid fight without a healer and basically never die.</p><p>THAT IS BROKEN.</p></blockquote><p>Again a very well thought out post. I do agree that most raid geared players do way too much DPS and they still retain stupid survivability without PVP Crit Mit. But all that aside I believe there are classes that could use some adjustment along with the general change you propose and I support.</p>

Sapphy
06-18-2010, 03:04 PM
<p><cite>Vymm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Taunts are out of control and completely ruining pvp..  I don't want taunts removed I think they are part of the game but there needs to be some immunity or passive taunts nerfed cause it's impossible to dps anyone else for more then 1 sec.. These stupid pvp fights are lasting 30-45 mins where you are basically taunted onto the tank for the ENTIRE TIME while his 2 healers are just spam healing him. How is intended that EVERY time you hit ANYONE in the other group that you are locked to the tank for 5-10 sec.. Then once it's finally cured off you get ONE HIT on a healer or whatever and then instantly taunted back to tank again for 5-10 sec.. You think it's fun for us to sit there beating on a tank for 30-45 minutes doing zero damage and unable to change targets even with 2 healers curing taunts off us? Obviously the devs have no clue how unbalanced it is cause if they don't do something soon with taunts the way they are pvp will die completely pretty soon. </p></blockquote><p>This! ^^^^ </p>

BlueEternal
06-18-2010, 03:11 PM
<p>Right..taunting is going to kill openworld pvp. Not the fact that SOE ignores every issue, breaks every pvp update, and quite frankly doesnt care anymore. Nope nope...it's all because of the taunts. The issue is not tanks, the issue is even when you do get the chance to burn down someone else in the group, the damage reduction mechanics are so screwed up, that you can barely scratch them regardless if they are a mage or a tank.</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-18-2010, 06:03 PM
<p>Taunts ruined PvP, It definatley wasn't the players always looking for the easiest way to attain the rewards you get for the PvP then actually worrying about the PvP itself. It's not procs on some gear being completely imbalanced in PvP. It isn't new AA's that they add that are not balanced right for PvP (IE. PFT for Assassins *Cough* Vyemm*Cough*). It couldn't be any of that at all.</p>

Greggthegrmreapr
06-18-2010, 06:23 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Taunts ruined PvP, It definatley wasn't the players always looking for the easiest way to attain the rewards you get for the PvP then actually worrying about the PvP itself. It's not procs on some gear being completely imbalanced in PvP. It isn't new AA's that they add that are not balanced right for PvP (IE. PFT for Assassins *Cough* Vyemm*Cough*). It couldn't be any of that at all.</p></blockquote><p>Nope, these have nothing to do with PvP being ruined.  Move along please.</p>

Xenith
06-18-2010, 06:54 PM
<p>It was conjuror elemental blast that ruined it, oihln? watever your dumbazz name is, you're an idiot</p>

threat111
06-18-2010, 07:33 PM
<p>group with more templars.</p>

Cloakentuna
06-18-2010, 08:01 PM
<p><cite>Xenith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It was conjuror elemental blast that ruined it, oihln? watever your dumbazz name is, you're an idiot</p></blockquote><p>This is the only post I read all the way through in this thread.  It made me laugh a little bit because it is the absolute truth.</p>

Killque
06-19-2010, 12:58 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure about this one so please don't take it to be super snyde, but I beleive either freedom of action or freedom of mind pots will work wonders for you.</p></blockquote><p>10 seconds of immunity every 15 minutes is not the answer. But these do not prevent taunts anyway so your arugment is invalid.</p>

Eboncross
06-20-2010, 06:13 AM
<p><cite>Vymm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Taunts are out of control and completely ruining pvp..  I don't want taunts removed I think they are part of the game but there needs to be some immunity or passive taunts nerfed cause it's impossible to dps anyone else for more then 1 sec.. These stupid pvp fights are lasting 30-45 mins where you are basically taunted onto the tank for the ENTIRE TIME while his 2 healers are just spam healing him. How is intended that EVERY time you hit ANYONE in the other group that you are locked to the tank for 5-10 sec.. Then once it's finally cured off you get ONE HIT on a healer or whatever and then instantly taunted back to tank again for 5-10 sec.. You think it's fun for us to sit there beating on a tank for 30-45 minutes doing zero damage and unable to change targets even with 2 healers curing taunts off us? Obviously the devs have no clue how unbalanced it is cause if they don't do something soon with taunts the way they are pvp will die completely pretty soon. </p></blockquote><p>Sure, and while you're at it immunity to stuns, stifles, and daze. Also fettering poisons and other poison procs as well. Thank you</p>

Daalilama
06-21-2010, 02:34 PM
<p>People calling for taunt immunities, on top of whatever immunitites the next person wants...might I ask if these immunities for pvp be the same ones that have never worked right in pvp since I dont know when...</p>

Cloakentuna
06-21-2010, 08:19 PM
<p>I'll take KB immunity over taunt immunity anyday.  At least I can still cast while being taunted.</p>

Prestissimo
06-21-2010, 08:52 PM
<p>There should be equal immunities, cures, and methods to avoid or counter every type of control effect. None of them should be any more difficult to get around than another because then you end up with one classes tools being significantly less effective than anothers. As it currently stands there is imbalance and certain such effects like kb and stuns are exponentially more usefull than something like say root or mez.</p>