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Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 04:21 PM
<p><span style="color: #993366;">-Kerra/Sarnak/Arasai/Fae: 50% increase to IN COMBAT run speed for 30 seconds; 5 min recast - This is extremely overpowered in PvP; change it to out of combat run speed only.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Safefall skill / Feather fall / Falling Damage Reduction– Very useful, especially in PvP and solo. Safefall Skill: Iksar, Kerra Feather Fall: Arasai, Dark Elf, Erudite, Fae, High Elf. Damage Reduction: Barbarian, Dwarf, Froglok, Iksar, Ogre, Sarnak, Troll Neither: Gnome, Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, Wood Elf. Solution: Up the damage reduction to 50% to make it more comparable to the rest. <span> </span>Give Safefall skill to Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, and Wood Elf (makes sense for these races to have safe fall).<span>  </span>Give gnomes Featherfall (clockwork illusion or something).</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-In zone teleport – A useful effect not obtainable by any other normal means.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Track – A useful, normally class specific ability.</span></p>

Nightshade
05-21-2010, 04:38 PM
<p>You're operating under the assumption that the entire game is built with PvP in mind.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 04:44 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You're operating under the assumption that the entire game is built with PvP in mind.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">No I'm not, I play on a PvE server.</span></p>

Banditman
05-21-2010, 04:45 PM
<p>lol.</p>

Ocello
05-21-2010, 04:50 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Self explanatory, the racial traits for some races are overpowered while others get traits that are not good for anything whatsoever.  Main points of Issue:</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Kerra/Sarnak/Arasai/Fae: 50% increase to IN COMBAT run speed for 30 seconds; 5 min recast - This is extremely overpowered in PvP; change it to out of combat run speed only.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Sure, I can agree with this.</span></span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Safefall skill / Feather fall / Falling Damage Reduction– Very useful, especially in PvP and solo. Safefall Skill: Iksar, Kerra Feather Fall: Arasai, Dark Elf, Erudite, Fae, High Elf. Damage Reduction: Barbarian, Dwarf, Froglok, Iksar, Ogre, Sarnak, Troll  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I think Kerra has this too tbh</span> Neither: Gnome, Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, Wood Elf. Solution: Up the damage reduction to 50% to make it more comparable to the rest. <span> </span>Give Safefall skill to Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, and Wood Elf (makes sense for these races to have safe fall).<span>  </span>Give gnomes Featherfall (clockwork illusion or something).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why in the world would Humans get safe fall???  Do YOU have safe fall????  I can see Ratonga and Wood Elf getting safefall, but not HE, Halfling or Human.  The gnomish featherfall makes sense too I suppose.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-In zone teleport – This ability should be removed.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">The recast on it is immense, not a big issue.</span></span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Track – This ability should be removed.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Wow.  All my toons are Kerra and I would seriously get upset if it was taken away.  Look at it from a Lore standpoint, it makes sense.  BUT for gaming purposes, and since I flame people who aren't realistic about things, I guess I would agree it is way too good for a Racial trait.  There I said it.  And I hate you for making me say it.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></span></p></blockquote>

VikingGamer
05-21-2010, 04:52 PM
<p>Coming from a PvE point of view I would say that tracking is the most lopsided racial/class ability because it is ridiculously useful and it cannot be duplicated in any way. Waterbreathing can be self casted with an item or a totem. Feather fall can be had with a cloak. Glide can be had from boots. But to have tracking you have to choose a race or a class that has it or you will never get it. The game needs a 15 min tracking totem. The natural tracking of some would still be very valueable just not exclusive.</p><p>The last thing I want to see however is more changes to the game to accomodate PvP. Some people are not at all interested in PvP. The strenght of this game is not PvP. One of the reason I left the OTHER GAME was to get away from the constant tweaking for PvP BS.</p>

Gungo
05-21-2010, 04:54 PM
<p>They have honestly nerfed racial traits 2x already. Next we will be crying how monks and bards have AA's to increase thier in combat run speed and how overpowered that is.</p>

VikingGamer
05-21-2010, 04:58 PM
<p><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">-Track – This ability should be removed.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Wow.  All my toons are Kerra and I would seriously get upset if it was taken away.  Look at it from a Lore standpoint, it makes sense.  BUT for gaming purposes, and since I flame people who aren't realistic about things, I guess I would agree it is way too good for a Racial trait.  There I said it.  And I hate you for making me say it.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></span></span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>It is too good, but I would hate to see it go from the game just to accomodate PvP. Add a tracking totem and everyone would have an option to even the field.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 04:59 PM
<p><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Self explanatory, the racial traits for some races are overpowered while others get traits that are not good for anything whatsoever.  Main points of Issue:</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Kerra/Sarnak/Arasai/Fae: 50% increase to IN COMBAT run speed for 30 seconds; 5 min recast - This is extremely overpowered in PvP; change it to out of combat run speed only.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Sure, I can agree with this.</span></span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Safefall skill / Feather fall / Falling Damage Reduction– Very useful, especially in PvP and solo. Safefall Skill: Iksar, Kerra Feather Fall: Arasai, Dark Elf, Erudite, Fae, High Elf. Damage Reduction: Barbarian, Dwarf, Froglok, Iksar, Ogre, Sarnak, Troll  <span style="color: #ff0000;">I think Kerra has this too tbh</span> Neither: Gnome, Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, Wood Elf. Solution: Up the damage reduction to 50% to make it more comparable to the rest. <span> </span>Give Safefall skill to Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, and Wood Elf (makes sense for these races to have safe fall).<span>  </span>Give gnomes Featherfall (clockwork illusion or something).</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Why in the world would Humans get safe fall???  Do YOU have safe fall????  I can see Ratonga and Wood Elf getting safefall, but not HE, Halfling or Human.  The gnomish featherfall makes sense too I suppose.</span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==Safe fall, not feather fall.  It does make too much sense but the main reason I choose that is because it makes more sense for Humans to have safefall than damage reduction or featherfall.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-In zone teleport – This ability should be removed.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">The recast on it is immense, not a big issue.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==Immense as in, how long exactly?</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Track – This ability should be removed.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Wow.  All my toons are Kerra and I would seriously get upset if it was taken away.  Look at it from a Lore standpoint, it makes sense.  BUT for gaming purposes, and since I flame people who aren't realistic about things, I guess I would agree it is way too good for a Racial trait.  There I said it.  And I hate you for making me say it.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==This one isn't really that big a deal, the first two are the only ones I really care about.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote>

Nightshade
05-21-2010, 05:00 PM
<p>Actually, certain classes get tracking (ones that make sense to have such a skill). Scouts, for instance.</p><p>How would one track with a totem? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p><p>PS: Immense as in 12 hour recast on teleport.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 05:01 PM
<p><cite>VikingGamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">-Track – This ability should be removed.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Wow.  All my toons are Kerra and I would seriously get upset if it was taken away.  Look at it from a Lore standpoint, it makes sense.  BUT for gaming purposes, and since I flame people who aren't realistic about things, I guess I would agree it is way too good for a Racial trait.  There I said it.  And I hate you for making me say it.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></span></span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>It is too good, but I would hate to see it go from the game just to accomodate PvP. Add a tracking totem and everyone would have an option to even the field.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Not for PvP, track is a defining scout ability and giving it out as a free racial trait is rather unfair.</span></p>

Dareena
05-21-2010, 05:02 PM
<p>Racial abilities will never be balanced.  Period.  Unless you want everyone to have the same traits or allow any race to pick traits of their choice from the same pool, then balance just isn't going to happen.  Every time SOE goes to balance them again, then a new race comes out on top.  That's how the cookie crumbles.</p><p>Now some games use their races as purely cosmetic choices that have no in-game implications.  EQ2 isn't one of those games, but that sounds like what you're asking for.  As I understand it, you want statless races who can equally select from a massive pool of abilities to custom tailor with characters with the abilities that the player finds valueable.</p><p>This system could work and be interesting, but it's not EQ2.  Apples to oranges really.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 05:02 PM
<p><cite>VikingGamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Coming from a PvE point of view I would say that tracking is the most lopsided racial/class ability because it is ridiculously useful and it cannot be duplicated in any way. Waterbreathing can be self casted with an item or a totem. Feather fall can be had with a cloak. Glide can be had from boots. But to have tracking you have to choose a race or a class that has it or you will never get it. The game needs a 15 min tracking totem. The natural tracking of some would still be very valueable just not exclusive.</p><p>The last thing I want to see however is more changes to the game to accomodate PvP. Some people are not at all interested in PvP. The strenght of this game is not PvP. One of the reason I left the OTHER GAME was to get away from the constant tweaking for PvP BS.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">All of the concerns are relevant to PvE as well.</span></p>

Korrupt
05-21-2010, 05:07 PM
<p>You're really reaching for something to complain about if you're gonna say racial traits of all things are OP lol. Gimme a break...</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 05:07 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Racial abilities will never be balanced.  Period.  Unless you want everyone to have the same traits or allow any race to pick traits of their choice from the same pool, then balance just isn't going to happen.  Every time SOE goes to balance them again, then a new race comes out on top.  That's how the cookie crumbles.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==That is perfect balance you are talking about.  Just because perfect balance cannot be achieved doesn't mean that they can't be made at least relativly fair. (and at least make sense)</span></p><p>Now some games use their races as purely cosmetic choices that have no in-game implications.  EQ2 isn't one of those games, but that sounds like what you're asking for.  As I understand it, you want statless races who can equally select from a massive pool of abilities to custom tailor with characters with the abilities that the player finds valueable.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==Not really, although that would be far better than the current unbalanced and largly counterintuitive racial traits.  What I want is racial traits that both make sense and are resonably fair.</span></p><p>This system could work and be interesting, but it's not EQ2.  Apples to oranges really.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==I can't find the quote right now but it was stated by a dev that the intent of the racial trait revamp was to make races more balanced and have <em>less</em> of an affect on gameplay.</span></p></blockquote>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 05:09 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You're really reaching for something to complain about if you're gonna say racial traits of all things are OP lol. Gimme a break...</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">No, they are unfair at best OP at worst.  Racial traits, unlike the majority of other problems with the game are something that would be very easy to fix.</span></p>

VikingGamer
05-21-2010, 05:11 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually, certain classes get tracking (ones that make sense to have such a skill). Scouts, for instance.</p><p>How would one track with a totem? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" /></p><p>PS: Immense as in 12 hour recast on teleport.</p></blockquote><p>Thats why I called it a Race/Class ability. Perfectly understandable for Scouts to have such an ablity. I hate scouts and will probably never play one. That means I either pick a race that has it or never have the option. I don't mind it being limited or even expensive. I just don't like that there is absolutely no option to duplicate something so useful especially since it is not gamebreaking, it is just really nice to have.</p><p>How? if you mean mechanics just do the same thing as the Gnomish Divining Rod only have it work creatures rather than harvestables.</p><p>If by "How?" you mean why a totem, it wouldn't need to be a totem it could be a tinker items, probably be better as a tinker item. I was just thinking of waterbreathing totems when I wrote this.</p>

CoLD MeTaL
05-21-2010, 05:12 PM
<p>I don't see them as imbalanced in PvE, and don't care about PvP.  You want a race with track choose that one, etc.</p>

Nightshade
05-21-2010, 05:13 PM
<p>I have to admit, it does seem like grasping for something to complain about. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" /></p>

VikingGamer
05-21-2010, 05:18 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>VikingGamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">-Track – This ability should be removed.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Wow.  All my toons are Kerra and I would seriously get upset if it was taken away.  Look at it from a Lore standpoint, it makes sense.  BUT for gaming purposes, and since I flame people who aren't realistic about things, I guess I would agree it is way too good for a Racial trait.  There I said it.  And I hate you for making me say it.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></span></span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>It is too good, but I would hate to see it go from the game just to accomodate PvP. Add a tracking totem and everyone would have an option to even the field.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Not for PvP, track is a defining scout ability and giving it out as a free racial trait is rather unfair.</span></p></blockquote><p>Ok, so that is why it should be taken from the races that have. So only scouts have it. Once again I think you will find no shortage of people, probably of those races getting shafted that will hate the idea of loosing something so useful just to make the PvP babies happy. Honestly, I would sooner see PvP removed from the game. I understand that some people love PvP and I understand that SOE has drank the Koolaid on that one. This game's strong point is not PvP however and probably never will be. I don't care if it is there as an option but it is not why I am here. I am playing this game for the PvE. If they want to rebrand it as a PvP centric game I will go looking somewhere else for entertainment.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 05:22 PM
<p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't see them as imbalanced in PvE, and don't care about PvP.  You want a race with track choose that one, etc.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I'm not going to pick a race I hate for a trait that I want.  Even if other races got something different but equally usefull that would be fine, but that is not the case.  No "Rob" is not usefull for ANYTHING unless you are 1c short of something you need to buy immediatly and there are grey humanoid mobs around.</span></p><p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to admit, it does seem like grasping for something to complain about. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">They might not matter to you but that doesn't mean they don't matter to someone else.  I know that there are much worse problems in the game that need to be fixed but those problems are not easy to fix, this on the other hand would take about 5 mins of dev time to fix it if they actually paid attention.</span></p><p><cite>VikingGamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Ok, so that is why it should be taken from the races that have. So only scouts have it. Once again I think you will find no shortage of people, probably of those races getting shafted that will hate the idea of loosing something so useful just to make the PvP babies happy. Honestly, I would sooner see PvP removed from the game. I understand that some people love PvP and I understand that SOE has drank the Koolaid on that one. This game's strong point is not PvP however and probably never will be. I don't care if it is there as an option but it is not why I am here. I am playing this game for the PvE. If they want to rebrand it as a PvP centric game I will go looking somewhere else for entertainment.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">It has nothing to do with PvP, I would never use track in PvP.  Track is a usefull tool in PvE, you said so yourself, much too usefull to be a racial trait when other races get garbage.</span></p>

Korrupt
05-21-2010, 05:31 PM
<p>It's not fair that preists get heals and I dont as a mage, I'm not gonna roll a priest just to get spells I want. At best it's imbalanced, at worst it's OP...</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 05:37 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's not fair that preists get heals and I dont as a mage, I'm not gonna roll a priest just to get spells I want. At best it's imbalanced, at worst it's OP...</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Nice straw man arguement.</span></p>

Axiana
05-21-2010, 05:44 PM
<p>I'm not sure why racial tracking is op in pvp?  Scouts are still required to track pvp targets as racial track doesn't track pvp, only pve targets. </p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 05:49 PM
<p><cite>Axiana wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure why racial tracking is op in pvp?  Scouts are still required to track pvp targets as racial track doesn't track pvp, only pve targets. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I never said it was, I don't think anyone did?</span></p>

CoLD MeTaL
05-21-2010, 06:04 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't see them as imbalanced in PvE, and don't care about PvP.  You want a race with track choose that one, etc.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I'm not going to pick a race I hate for a trait that I want.  Even if other races got something different but equally usefull that would be fine, but that is not the case.  No "Rob" is not usefull for ANYTHING unless you are 1c short of something you need to buy immediatly and there are grey humanoid mobs around.</span></p></blockquote><p>But you aren't giving any 'real' reason why it should be removed other than 'you' think it is OP.  I see from a LORE standpoint that Kerra could have heightened senses and growing up in the jungle would give them natural ability to track.  </p><p>And so don't pick rob, my gnome gets a once per day full repair.  most of the time i forget he has it.  dark elf gets a tinker call which he already has call of the tinker.  fae fall and glide are awesome and make sense since they have wings.</p><p>sorry I don't see the problem.</p><p>EDIT: I will admit at first I thought track a little much to give a 'race', but I don't see any imbalance it created.</p>

Serenade
05-21-2010, 06:09 PM
<p></p><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">Not for PvP, track is a defining scout ability and giving it out as a free racial trait is rather unfair. </span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Track is hardly a defining scout ability. It was an ability that only scouts had but nothing that made a scout a scout. As such I could care less that non scouts have it because lets be honest, tracking isn't as great as everyone is making it out to be. Yeah it's nice for finding wondering names/npcs fast but otherwise meh.</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">No, they are unfair at best OP at worst.</span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">No their not. This logic states it's unfair that healers have heals and scouts don't. It's idiotic.</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">I'm not going to pick a race I hate for a trait that I want. </span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">So this all boils down to you throwing a emo hissy fit over not getting what you want on the race you want to play. Instead of just saying you're crying about not getting what you want how you want it you make up a bunch of BS about things like Track being overpowered (lol) for certain races to have.</p> <p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></blockquote> <blockquote>It's not fair that preists get heals and I dont as a mage, I'm not gonna roll a priest just to get spells I want. At best it's imbalanced, at worst it's OP...</blockquote> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">Nice straw man arguement.</span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">It's not a straw man argument. That's exactly what you are doing.</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote>I have to admit, it does seem like grasping for something to complain about. <img src="../images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" width="15" height="15" align="BOTTOM" /></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">That's pretty much all he's doing, which is why most of us can't take him seriously. Oh and he does this every few months or so.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 06:19 PM
<p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't see them as imbalanced in PvE, and don't care about PvP.  You want a race with track choose that one, etc.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I'm not going to pick a race I hate for a trait that I want.  Even if other races got something different but equally usefull that would be fine, but that is not the case.  No "Rob" is not usefull for ANYTHING unless you are 1c short of something you need to buy immediatly and there are grey humanoid mobs around.</span></p></blockquote><p>But you aren't giving any 'real' reason why it should be removed other than 'you' think it is OP.  I see from a LORE standpoint that Kerra could have heightened senses and growing up in the jungle would give them natural ability to track.  </p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==It is far better than most other racial traits and given to a race that even without it has some of the best racial traits.</span></p><p>And so don't pick rob, my gnome gets a once per day full repair.  most of the time i forget he has it.  dark elf gets a tinker call which he already has call of the tinker.  fae fall and glide are awesome and make sense since they have wings.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==What do you mean don't pick it?</span></p><p>sorry I don't see the problem.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==The problem is that race gives players an unfair advantage when playing the game and that It's not a pick and choose for which race has better traits for a certain class but rather that certain races are just plain better in almost everything.</span></p><p>EDIT: I will admit at first I thought track a little much to give a 'race', but I don't see any imbalance it created.</p></blockquote>

CoLD MeTaL
05-21-2010, 06:26 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">==The problem is that race gives players an unfair advantage when playing the game and that It's not a pick and choose for which race has better traits for a certain class but rather that certain races are just plain better in almost everything.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I don't see how track 'gives an unfair advantage', it only makes it possibly quicker to find something.  You can be a kerra, wood elf or a scout of any race and get track.</p><p>I don't have any kerra or wood elves because i don't like those races, track isn't enough to make me think for a moment of changing to those races.</p><p>Its certainly not a problem for a kerra assassin, who would already get track.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 06:28 PM
<p><cite>Serenade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">Not for PvP, track is a defining scout ability and giving it out as a free racial trait is rather unfair. </span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Track is hardly a defining scout ability. It was an ability that only scouts had but nothing that made a scout a scout. As such I could care less that non scouts have it because lets be honest, tracking isn't as great as everyone is making it out to be. Yeah it's nice for finding wondering names/npcs fast but otherwise meh.</p><p> <span style="color: #993366;">==It's almost as bad as giving out FD as a racial trait.  Racial traits were never meant to have that much impact on game play and if they are going to be made to have a significant affect then each race should get something equally useful but they don't.</span></p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">No, they are unfair at best OP at worst.</span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">No their not. This logic states it's unfair that healers have heals and scouts don't. It's idiotic.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #993366;">==That has absolutly nothing to do with this not to mention scouts do have heals, making such a comparison is what's idiotic.</span></p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">I'm not going to pick a race I hate for a trait that I want. </span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">So this all boils down to you throwing a emo hissy fit over not getting what you want on the race you want to play. Instead of just saying you're crying about not getting what you want how you want it you make up a bunch of BS about things like Track being overpowered (lol) for certain races to have.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #993366;">==It's not BS, the fact that the race I want to play has crap for traits <em>is</em> the reason that I am <em>posting</em> about this but is <em>not</em> the reason that I say the traits are OP.</span></p> <p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></blockquote> <blockquote>It's not fair that preists get heals and I dont as a mage, I'm not gonna roll a priest just to get spells I want. At best it's imbalanced, at worst it's OP...</blockquote> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">Nice straw man arguement.</span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">It's not a straw man argument. That's exactly what you are doing.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #993366;">==Try looking up the definition of a straw man arguement since you obviously have no idea what it means.  Here, let me help you.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial Black; color: #993366;"><span style="font-family: arial;">The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern: </span></span></p><ol><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial Black; color: #993366;"><span style="font-family: arial;"><li>Person A has position X. </li><li>Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X). </li><li>Person B attacks position Y. </li><li>Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed. </li></span></span></ol> <p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: Arial Black; color: #993366;"><span style="font-family: arial;">This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person. </span></span></p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote>I have to admit, it does seem like grasping for something to complain about. <img src="../images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" width="15" height="15" align="BOTTOM" /></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">That's pretty much all he's doing, which is why most of us can't take him seriously. Oh and he does this every few months or so.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==It's not "grasping for something to complain about", it's giving my opinion of what is wrong with a certain aspect of the game and suggestions on how to improve it... otherwise know as feedback.  In case you haven't noticed that is one of the main purposes of the forums, although apprently you think the main purpose is to insult anyone you don't agree with.</span></p></blockquote>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 06:32 PM
<p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">==The problem is that race gives players an unfair advantage when playing the game and that It's not a pick and choose for which race has better traits for a certain class but rather that certain races are just plain better in almost everything.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I don't see how track 'gives an unfair advantage', it only makes it possibly quicker to find something.  You can be a kerra, wood elf or a scout of any race and get track.</p><p>I don't have any kerra or wood elves because i don't like those races, track isn't enough to make me think for a moment of changing to those races.</p><p>Its certainly not a problem for a kerra assassin, who would already get track.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Yes it's true that scouts get the ability but that means nothing in relation to this.  Track is a usefull tool, nothing more nothing less; however that doesn't change the fact that it does give the player an unfair advantage to players of most other races assuming that both players are not scouts.  I would be perfectly ok with it if all other races got an ability that was usefull instead of track, but they do not.</span></p>

Morghus
05-21-2010, 06:38 PM
<p>Oh hey, its <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=120&topic_id=465553" target="_blank">this</a> locked topic again.</p>

VikingGamer
05-21-2010, 06:42 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>CoLD MeTaL wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">==The problem is that race gives players an unfair advantage when playing the game and that It's not a pick and choose for which race has better traits for a certain class but rather that certain races are just plain better in almost everything.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>I don't see how track 'gives an unfair advantage', it only makes it possibly quicker to find something.  You can be a kerra, wood elf or a scout of any race and get track.</p><p>I don't have any kerra or wood elves because i don't like those races, track isn't enough to make me think for a moment of changing to those races.</p><p>Its certainly not a problem for a kerra assassin, who would already get track.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Yes it's true that scouts get the ability but that means nothing in relation to this.  Track is a usefull tool, nothing more nothing less; however that doesn't change the fact that it does give the player an unfair advantage to players of most other races assuming that both players are not scouts.  I would be perfectly ok with it if all other races got an ability that was usefull instead of track, but they do not.</span></p></blockquote><p>If tracking is simply useful and nothing more then how can it give an unfair advantage? (especially considering the racial version can't be used in pvp.)</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 06:42 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh hey, its <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=120&topic_id=465553" target="_blank">this</a> locked topic again.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">The reason it was locked is: </span></p><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p><span ><p>Unfortunately this thread has devolved into bickering and personal attacks, forgetting that everyone has and is entitled to their opinions.  No one will ever be "right" or declared the winner of this argument.</p><p>So, I'll just shut this down now.</p></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">And I am not the one comming in here posting snide remarks.</span> <span style="color: #993366;"> If you have nothing constructive to say then do everyone a favor and say nothing.</span></p>

Beef_Supre
05-21-2010, 06:42 PM
<p>Balancing racial traits TOO much would just make everyone too [Removed for Content] similar.</p><p>I'm more than willing to have a disadvantage or two on my character in order to preserve some real flavor and difference between the races.</p><p>Making everyone the same would result in the loss of the game mechanics that back up who and what your character is.</p><p>I don't want that, and am very glad the races aren't that watered down and homogeneous.</p><p>To be honest, I would really like MORE of this terribly 'unfair' thing. I'd like even more statistical diversification of the races.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 06:45 PM
<p><cite>VikingGamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If tracking is simply useful and nothing more then how can it give an unfair advantage? (especially considering the racial version can't be used in pvp.)</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">When I say "unfair advantage" I am speaking relativly.  Of course it's not a huge advantage, the only racial trait that is a huge advantage is the 50% combat runspeed and that only in PvP.  But when you compare it to how useless the traits that other races get it is glaringly obvious how much better it is.  Now I'm not demanding that track be removed, giving other races something equally usefull would work just as well (better actually).</span></p>

juggalo0385
05-21-2010, 06:45 PM
<p>someone should call a WAAAAAAAAmbulance.  I have a human Pally that I wish could have safe fall but in all reality a person wearing plate armor is not going to jump off a cliff and float down.  So you know what I did....I created a high elf swashy and I can float.  how can track be over powered.  Your emo noobness is over powered</p>

Morghus
05-21-2010, 06:47 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh hey, its <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=120&topic_id=465553" target="_blank">this</a> locked topic again.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">The reason it was locked is: </span></p><p><cite>Kiara wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p><span><p>Unfortunately this thread has devolved into bickering and personal attacks, forgetting that everyone has and is entitled to their opinions.  No one will ever be "right" or declared the winner of this argument.</p><p>So, I'll just shut this down now.</p></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">And I am not the one comming in here posting snide remarks.</span> <span style="color: #993366;"> If you have nothing constructive to say then do everyone a favor and say nothing.</span></p></blockquote><p>You misunderstand. I simply find it amusing that this 'new' thread is started by the exact same person, and argued in a near identical fashion. I myself have nothing to add to this that I did not already say in the previous thread.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 06:50 PM
<p><cite>Beef_Supreme wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Balancing racial traits TOO much would just make everyone too [Removed for Content] similar.</p><p>I'm more than willing to have a disadvantage or two on my character in order to preserve some real flavor and difference between the races.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==I agree to an extent, I think races should have particular advantages and disadvantages that make sense for that particular race but currently some races have </span> relatively <span style="color: #993366;">large advantages with others getting no discernable advantage.</span></p><p>Making everyone the same would result in the loss of the game mechanics that back up who and what your character is.</p><p>I don't want that, and am very glad the races aren't that watered down and homogeneous.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==I don't want them to be the same either, what I am asking for is that races get bonuses that make sense for that race and are at least aproximatly as usefull as each other (for different things).</span></p><p><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">To be honest, I would really like MORE of this terribly 'unfair' thing. </span>I'd like even more statistical diversification of the races.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==So would I, a long time ago I posted something reguarding this with a sort of stat "affinity" that decreases or increaseses the effectivness of stats from equipment and buffs.  However I don't think that would go over well with the majority of the players of the game.</span></p></blockquote>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 06:51 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You misunderstand. I simply find it amusing that this 'new' thread is started by the exact same person, and argued in a near identical fashion. I myself have nothing to add to this that I did not already say in the previous thread.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Perhaps, but I am not going to give up on something just because people tell me too.</span></p>

Gothmog
05-21-2010, 07:24 PM
<p>Racial traits are fine as is.  Nothing overpowered, just different. </p>

Serenade
05-21-2010, 07:29 PM
<p></p><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">==It's almost as bad as giving out FD as a racial trait. Racial traits were never meant to have that much impact on game play and if they are going to be made to have a significant affect then each race should get something equally useful but they don't. </span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">It's no where near as bad as giving FD because tracking has no real impact on game play. None. Zero. Zip. The fact you think tracking is OP is so ludicrous that it's impossible to take anything you say seriously.</p> <p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">==That has absolutly nothing to do with this not to mention scouts do have heals, making such a comparison is what's idiotic. </span></blockquote> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">The logic is the same therefore it has everything to do with it.</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Most Scouts don't have heals, only bards do and their heal is nothing on the level of a healers. Thats so unfair!</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">No the comparison isn't idiotic. Your logic is, and by that I mean your logic not you. Getting the two confused shows you really shouldn't try arguing anything if you can't follow the basic rules here and take it personally.</p> <p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">==It's not BS, the fact that the race I want to play has crap for traits </span><em><span style="color: #993366;">is</span></em><span style="color: #993366;"> the reason that I am </span><em><span style="color: #993366;">posting</span></em><span style="color: #993366;"> about this but is </span><em><span style="color: #993366;">not</span></em><span style="color: #993366;"> the reason that I say the traits are OP.</span></p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">No, that statement is not about your concern being BS, but the way you presented it. Or as I stated clear as day, your concern is about not getting what you want how you want it. Not that the abilities are OP and/or unfair.</p> <p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">==Try looking up the definition of a straw man arguement since you obviously have no idea what it means. Here, let me help you. </span></blockquote> <p>I know what a straw man argument is and it's pretty clear that not only do you not understand what a straw man argument really is, but you completely misunderstood my point. So please, let me help you out here.</p> <p>First off, what you posted as a straw man argument isn't a full or correct example but whatever we'll go with that.</p> <ol><li><p>you don't have a real position, you have an opinion that has no bearing in truth.</p> </li><li><p>Korrupt didn't give a distorted position. He gave an opinion of your opinion as being nothing more than crying about not getting what you want how you want it.</p> </li><li><p>Korrupt didn't really attack you. He just said he thinks you're being absurd on this whole thing, which really you kind of are.</p> </li><li><p>Korrupt isn't saying your wrong or incorrect, just that he disagrees with you.</p> </li></ol> <p>My point was that Korrupt was simply giving you an example of how you're acting. It's impossible for there to be a straw man argument here because there's no real argument on your part. Just opinion therefore anyone can pretty much respond to you're opinion with their own, even if you don't like it or don't want to hear it.</p> <p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><span style="color: #993366;">==It's not "grasping for something to complain about", it's giving my opinion of what is wrong with a certain aspect of the game and suggestions on how to improve it... otherwise know as feedback. In case you haven't noticed that is one of the main purposes of the forums, although apprently you think the main purpose is to insult anyone you don't agree with. </span></blockquote> <p>Hey, “feedback” all you want. The best outlet is the /feedback in game as you can make you statement without anyone giving their counter opinion which appears to be what you really want. If you do it on the forums then people are going to give theirs. Since it's pretty clear you're overly sensitive and freak out on how some people respond to your ideas, I'd recommend sticking to in game feedback only.</p> <p>As a side note I was not insulting you in my first post, only calling your logic into question. You however did try to insult me (and failed miserably) which voids any complaint you have on others trying to insult you in the first place.</p>

Katz
05-21-2010, 07:42 PM
<p>Oh geezzz.  Everything is overpowered.  Remove it all.  No skills, no traits, no aa's.  Turn us loose sans armor and weapons and see how that works.</p>

lollipop
05-21-2010, 08:16 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Self explanatory, the racial traits for some races are overpowered while others get traits that are not good for anything whatsoever.  Main points of Issue:</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Kerra/Sarnak/Arasai/Fae: 50% increase to IN COMBAT run speed for 30 seconds; 5 min recast - This is extremely overpowered in PvP; change it to out of combat run speed only.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Safefall skill / Feather fall / Falling Damage Reduction– Very useful, especially in PvP and solo. Safefall Skill: Iksar, Kerra Feather Fall: Arasai, Dark Elf, Erudite, Fae, High Elf. Damage Reduction: Barbarian, Dwarf, Froglok, Iksar, Ogre, Sarnak, Troll Neither: Gnome, Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, Wood Elf. Solution: Up the damage reduction to 50% to make it more comparable to the rest. <span> </span>Give Safefall skill to Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, and Wood Elf (makes sense for these races to have safe fall).<span>  </span>Give gnomes Featherfall (clockwork illusion or something).</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-In zone teleport – This ability should be removed.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Track – This ability should be removed.</span></p></blockquote><p>wow stf up already and stop crying.</p>

Boucu
05-21-2010, 09:58 PM
<p>Just out of curiousity... whats wrong with Kerran's having Track and Safe fall? Isnt it natural in real life for big cats.. or cats in general to have both of these ability's? I only have one Kerran toon out of 10. I do think however that Humans racial ability's need some love, i would like to have a human toon but they offer nothing in racial ability's.</p>

Gladiolus
05-21-2010, 10:21 PM
<p><cite>VikingGamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The last thing I want to see however is more changes to the game to accomodate PvP. Some people are not at all interested in PvP. The strenght of this game is not PvP. One of the reason I left the OTHER GAME was to get away from the constant tweaking for PvP BS.</p></blockquote><p>Indeed</p>

Iskandar
05-21-2010, 10:44 PM
<p>/sigh.... Lethe, wasn't the first thread enough? I can already see this one headed to the same ending as the first too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=465553">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=465553</a></p><p>My opinion hasn't changed one bit since December either. Other than the racials that double up with the class abilities (ie, tracking for a Ranger + tracking for a Kerran = one lost ability on a Kerran Ranger) I still have no problem with any of them.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 10:52 PM
<p><cite>Serenade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>It's no where near as bad as giving FD because tracking has no real impact on game play. None. Zero. Zip. The fact you think tracking is OP is so ludicrous that it's impossible to take anything you say seriously.</blockquote><p> </p><p><span style="color: #993366;">I said numerous times that track is relatively op when compared to the crap other races get, not that it is OP in general.</span></p><p><cite>Serenade wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">The logic is the same therefore it has everything to do with it.</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Most Scouts don't have heals, only bards do and their heal is nothing on the level of a healers. Thats so unfair!</p> <p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">No the comparison isn't idiotic. Your logic is, and by that I mean your logic not you. Getting the two confused shows you really shouldn't try arguing anything if you can't follow the basic rules here and take it personally.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">The logic is not at all the same.  If healers out DPSed scouts and I was complaining that healers have too much DPS than it would be the same logic.</span></p><p><cite>Serenade wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote>No, that statement is not about your concern being BS, but the way you presented it. Or as I stated clear as day, your concern is about not getting what you want how you want it. Not that the abilities are OP and/or unfair</blockquote> <p><span style="color: #993366;">The fact that I didn't get the abilities that I wanted is my <em>motivation</em> for complaining about the racial traits but it is not the reason that I say they are unfair.  If it was swapped and I had those racial traits and they had mine I would still think that it is unfair and that my racial traits are OP I just wouldn't be complaining about it.</span></p><p><cite>Serenade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p>I know what a straw man argument is and it's pretty clear that not only do you not understand what a straw man argument really is, but you completely misunderstood my point. So please, let me help you out here.</p> <p>First off, what you posted as a straw man argument isn't a full or correct example but whatever we'll go with that.</p> <ol><li><p>you don't have a real position, you have an opinion that has no bearing in truth.</p> </li><li><p>Korrupt didn't give a distorted position. He gave an opinion of your opinion as being nothing more than crying about not getting what you want how you want it.</p> </li><li><p>Korrupt didn't really attack you. He just said he thinks you're being absurd on this whole thing, which really you kind of are.</p> </li><li><p>Korrupt isn't saying your wrong or incorrect, just that he disagrees with you.</p> </li></ol></blockquote><p></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">1. That's not true, my position is not an opinion it is a fact; you just are not interpreting it correctly.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">2. Also not true, he did give a distorted and highly exaggerated version of my position.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">3. Well you are correct, technically he did not attack me.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">4. It goes without saying that he thinks I'm wrong.</span></p> <p><cite>Serenade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p>My point was that Korrupt was simply giving you an example of how you're acting. It's impossible for there to be a straw man argument here because there's no real argument on your part. Just opinion therefore anyone can pretty much respond to you're opinion with their own, even if you don't like it or don't want to hear it.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">The fact that certain races have racial traits that are far more useful and overpowered relative to the useless traits is just that, a fact.</span></p><p><cite>Serenade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"> </p><p>Hey, “feedback” all you want. The best outlet is the /feedback in game as you can make you statement without anyone giving their counter opinion which appears to be what you really want. If you do it on the forums then people are going to give theirs. Since it's pretty clear you're overly sensitive and freak out on how some people respond to your ideas, I'd recommend sticking to in game feedback only.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I have done that countless times and continue to do so but that doesn't mean I can't post it on the forum as well.  I don't know what you mean by "freaking out".</span></p><p><cite>Serenade wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As a side note I was not insulting you in my first post, only calling your logic into question. You however did try to insult me (and failed miserably) which voids any complaint you have on others trying to insult you in the first place.</p></blockquote><p> </p><p><span style="color: #993366;">I did not insult you I merely treated you with the same respect you showed me.</span></p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 10:54 PM
<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/sigh.... Lethe, wasn't the first thread enough? I can already see this one headed to the same ending as the first too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==Nothing has changed since so no, it was not enough.</span></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=465553">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=465553</a></p><p>My opinion hasn't changed one bit since December either. Other than the racials that double up with the class abilities (ie, tracking for a Ranger + tracking for a Kerran = one lost ability on a Kerran Ranger) I still have no problem with any of them.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==You should read what racial traits all other races get and compare them.</span></p></blockquote>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 10:57 PM
<p><cite>Boucuka wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just out of curiousity... whats wrong with Kerran's having Track and Safe fall? Isnt it natural in real life for big cats.. or cats in general to have both of these ability's? I only have one Kerran toon out of 10. I do think however that Humans racial ability's need some love, i would like to have a human toon but they offer nothing in racial ability's.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">There's nothing exactly wrong with it other than the fact that the traits many other races get instead are totally worthless whereas the Kerra traits are fairly useful.  Getting rid of them would only be one way to fix the problem and, in my opinion, not the best way to fix it.  It would be ideal if they would simply bring other race's traits up to par.</span></p>

Korrupt
05-21-2010, 11:02 PM
<p>You pick a class, you get a,b, or c. You pick a race you get x,y, or z. Complianing that one race has abilities another race has is absolutely no different than complaing that 1 class has abilities another doesn't. It's not a large exaggerration exept by definition of the strength of the abilities. You're complaining about the weaker of the 2, if anything you'd have a stronger point with the ridiculous class complaint over this race thing.</p><p>Pick what you want to have by both race AND class. There are no race restrictions on classes so you can choose whatever race you like to satisfy your need for the extremely powerful abilities you claim they have(which is complete opinion btw, each race has abilities that help in specific situations, your value of those situations is your view alone). You can't have everything, nor do you have a legitimate reason to tell others they cannot have what you have chosen not to take.</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 11:06 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Complianing that one race has abilities another race has is absolutely no different than complaing that 1 class has abilities another doesn't.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Yes it is, classes may have abilities that other classes have but that is true BOTH ways.  Class A can DPS but not heal, class B can heal but not DPS, that is fair balance of power.  With racial traits it's more akin to class A can DPS and Heal, class B can do neither.</span></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You can't have everything, nor do you have a legitimate reason to tell others they cannot have what you have chosen not to take.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Maybe not, but is it not reasonable to ask to have something at least approximately as good as what they have even if it is for an entirely different function.</span></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are no race restrictions on classes so you can choose whatever race you like to satisfy your need for the extremely powerful abilities you claim they have(which is complete opinion btw, each race has abilities that help in specific situations, your value of those situations is your view alone).</p></blockquote><p> </p><p><span style="color: #993366;">I do not claim that they are "extremely powerful"; now that I look back at it I should not have referred to them as overpowered because everyone misinterprets it.  The difference is that these traits are <em>moderately useful</em> as opposed to traits that are <em>totally useless</em>.</span></p>

Korrupt
05-21-2010, 11:10 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Maybe not, but is it not reasonable to ask to have something at least approximately as good as what they have even if it is for an entirely different function.</span></p></blockquote><p>This is based on your opinion on what is valuable. Every race has abilities that are useful in a specific situation, if you don't like the situation they are equipped to handle then choose a different race. There is not a single race that has no racial abilities, so the entire basis for your argument is false.</p><p>I also view some racial abilities as being far more useful to my playstyle so it seems like I'm shafted. I also realize that it's my choice whether to use that race for those racials or not, and not everyone has my same standards of value. It's not my call to ask for other people to have things taken away from them because I chose not to select the abilities they have. Nor is it my place to ask for my specific race to be given abilities that benefit my personal tastes so i have the best of everything.</p>

Rijacki
05-21-2010, 11:13 PM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/sigh.... Lethe, wasn't the first thread enough? I can already see this one headed to the same ending as the first too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==Nothing has changed since so no, it was not enough.</span></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=465553">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=465553</a></p><p>My opinion hasn't changed one bit since December either. Other than the racials that double up with the class abilities (ie, tracking for a Ranger + tracking for a Kerran = one lost ability on a Kerran Ranger) I still have no problem with any of them.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==You should read what racial traits all other races get and compare them.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>So, because you didn't get the changes YOU want, that means you need to have an identical thread all over again when the answers from the devs, either directly or indirectly, was "no changes needed" (because there were no changes).</p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 11:18 PM
<p style="text-align: center;"><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Maybe not, but is it not reasonable to ask to have something at least approximately as good as what they have even if it is for an entirely different function.</span></p></blockquote><p>This is based on your opinion on what is valuable. Every race has abilities that are useful in a specific situation, if you don't like the situation they are equipped to handle then choose a different race. There is not a single race that has no racial abilities, so the entire basis for your argument is false.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I am comparing specific traits, the <em>innate traits only</em>.  Not the class traits, not the tradeskill traits.  Let me use real examples so that it can be show that it's not just my opinion that certain traits are better than others.</span></p><p><strong>Tracking</strong> - Tracks a selected target.  <span style="color: #993366;">(A normal scout ability with undeniable uses.)</span></p><p style="text-align: center;"><strong>VS</strong></p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>Rob</strong> - Gives the caster a chance to steal something from humanoid targets, based on the level difference of the opponent. May cause aggro. <span style="color: #993366;">(A brigand fun spell with no practical use.)</span></p>

Lethe5683
05-21-2010, 11:20 PM
<p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>/sigh.... Lethe, wasn't the first thread enough? I can already see this one headed to the same ending as the first too <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==Nothing has changed since so no, it was not enough.</span></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=465553">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=465553</a></p><p>My opinion hasn't changed one bit since December either. Other than the racials that double up with the class abilities (ie, tracking for a Ranger + tracking for a Kerran = one lost ability on a Kerran Ranger) I still have no problem with any of them.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==You should read what racial traits all other races get and compare them.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>So, because you didn't get the changes YOU want, that means you need to have an identical thread all over again when the answers from the devs, either directly or indirectly, was "no changes needed" (because there were no changes).</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">There was no decision from the devs, most likely they did not even read it.  The thread was locked because it "<span ><span>devolved into bickering and personal attacks".</span></span></span></p>

Iskandar
05-21-2010, 11:36 PM
<p><span style="color: #993366;">==You should read what racial traits all other races get and compare them.</span></p><p>I have. I have every class in the game, both good and evil (two of some in several cases) and every race except Barbarian (which I am saving for New Halas.. tho I have not decided on what classes to play yet <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />) at my beck and call on one account or another. I see no problem with any except, again, what I said about those with doubled-up racial and class abilities.</p>

Lethe5683
05-22-2010, 12:08 AM
<p><cite>Iskandar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">==You should read what racial traits all other races get and compare them.</span></p><p>I have. I have every class in the game, both good and evil (two of some in several cases) and every race except Barbarian (which I am saving for New Halas.. tho I have not decided on what classes to play yet <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" />) at my beck and call on one account or another. I see no problem with any except, again, what I said about those with doubled-up racial and class abilities.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Talking about innate racial traits only, certain races get all the good ones (feather fall, runspeed, track, port) while others get the ones with no purpose or that can be easily substituted with consumable items (rob, water breathing, disarm trap, reduce power cost of tinkering, small hp regen bonus, etc).</span></p>

Korrupt
05-22-2010, 12:11 AM
<p>The only ability that can't be gotten by a consumable or another way is tracking. So if tracking is specifically the trait you have a problem with then complain about all tracking. If it's not the only one you're worried about, then your last statement is based on false info.</p>

Lethe5683
05-22-2010, 12:25 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only ability that can't be gotten by a consumable or another way is tracking. So if tracking is specifically the trait you have a problem with then complain about all tracking. If it's not the only one you're worried about, then your last statement is based on false info.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">No it's not; tracking, safe fall and in combat run speed cannot be obtained with any consumable or item that I know of.  Safe fall and the in combat runspeed are my primary concerns.</span></p>

Korrupt
05-22-2010, 12:32 AM
<p>Not gonna touch on in combat run speed because thats a pretty common ability for most classes. What about safe fall do you feel is OP considering it's not nearly as beneficial as featherfall which anyone can easily get?</p>

Lethe5683
05-22-2010, 12:43 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not gonna touch on in combat run speed because thats a pretty common ability for most classes. What about safe fall do you feel is OP considering it's not nearly as beneficial as featherfall which anyone can easily get?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">I don't know of a single class other than fury with much more than 10% in combat run speed possible, in combat run speed not out of combat run speed.  I don't feel it is OP, and it is in most cases far more useful than Featherfall; Featherfall is extremely slow and for any race that does not have it you have to sacrifice all the stats from your cloak to get it.</span></p>

Korrupt
05-22-2010, 01:19 AM
<p>so a short burst of run speed in combat is OP as compared to the constant 10% in combat several classes get? And safe fall does not work from any distance like featherfall does. Yes they are abilities that everyone does not have, but you haven't made any point as to how these abilities are OP. OP is an ability that can drastically change gameplay and give a decisive advantage to something. None of these skills are anywhere close to that, they are gimmick abilities that affect the game on an incredibly small scale.</p><p>It appears the only way to satisfy your definition of OP is to not have any racial abilities whatsoever or give everyone the exact same abilities, both of which would take away the little bit of flavor racial abilities have. Is this what you're asking for? You cannot say you want equal but different abilities on other classes because defining what is equal is impossible and relative to personal value.</p>

Levatino
05-22-2010, 01:36 AM
<p>I think they should give all racial traits to everyone; let people choose what they want but make it so they have to choose between things, maybe even opposing two choices. If you want tracking you can't have safe fall for instance. Choose waterbreathing then you can't choose enhance runspeed with 5% and so on.</p><p>Just make sure the choice people have to make are between similair things ( op things against op things, nice things against nice things, and fluff things against fluff things)</p>

Lethe5683
05-22-2010, 01:49 AM
<p><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think they should give all racial traits to everyone; let people choose what they want but make it so they have to choose between things, maybe even opposing two choices. If you want tracking you can't have safe fall for instance. Choose waterbreathing then you can't choose enhance runspeed with 5% and so on.</p><p>Just make sure the choice people have to make are between similair things ( op things against op things, nice things against nice things, and fluff things against fluff things)</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">That is probably the best solution but then people whine about "race individuality" as if the current racial traits even make sense for the most part.</span></p>

Lethe5683
05-22-2010, 01:57 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>so a short burst of run speed in combat is OP as compared to the constant 10% in combat several classes get? And safe fall does not work from any distance like featherfall does. Yes they are abilities that everyone does not have, but you haven't made any point as to how these abilities are OP. OP is an ability that can drastically change gameplay and give a decisive advantage to something. None of these skills are anywhere close to that, they are gimmick abilities that affect the game on an incredibly small scale.</p><p>It appears the only way to satisfy your definition of OP is to not have any racial abilities whatsoever or give everyone the exact same abilities, both of which would take away the little bit of flavor racial abilities have. Is this what you're asking for? You cannot say you want equal but different abilities on other classes because defining what is equal is impossible and relative to personal value.</p></blockquote><p></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">Let me set this straight.  No racial trait is over powered in general terms, I should have never used that word to describe them because no one understood what i meant by "relatively OP".</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">Perhaps a better way to phrase is would be "It is not fair that certain races get rather useful racial traits while other races get traits that are absolutely worthless by any measure."</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">Safefall does work from extremely high distances, not as high as Featherfall obviously since that has no limit; but safe fall, unlike Featherfall cloak is always active, does not require sacrificing other stats, and does not waste time making your float slowly down.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">It is not impossible to make traits relatively balanced with regard to real game play (for lack of a better word), in fact it would be fairly easy.  The current traits are anything but balanced however and really the only thing that needs to be done is useless abilities need to be changed to something useful; that is all.</span></p>

Scfs123
05-22-2010, 02:23 AM
<p>You seem to be focusing on Innate abilities, of the races with no falling damage / run speed as the ones that are to strong compared to rest.</p><p>"<span style="color: #993366;">-Kerra/Sarnak/Arasai/Fae: 50% increase to IN COMBAT run speed for 30 seconds; 5 min recast - This is extremely overpowered in PvP; change it to out of combat run speed only.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Safefall skill / Feather fall / Falling Damage Reduction– Very useful, especially in PvP and solo. Safefall Skill: Iksar, Kerra Feather Fall: Arasai, Dark Elf, Erudite, Fae, High Elf."</span></p><p>I don't think its much of a difference, you mention the 50% speed increase, but you leave out the 15% speed while stealthed racial. Which as you said, is due to "innate abilities not ones you pick"</p><p>Which i don't think is really fair.</p><p>Sure you get those few abilities, but you also get a buttload of other abilities based on your race to.</p><p>Which help compensate for the innate ones.</p><p>Like you say</p><p>"<span ><span style="color: #993366;">Neither: Gnome, Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, Wood Elf."</span></span></p><p>Lets look at what they get in exchange though.</p><p>Gnome - Free Field Repair /12 hours. and Reduces power cost of Tinkering skills by 25% and increases Tinkering by 10.0.</p><p>Half Elf - Tracking, Duration of Drinks, 1s off gathering/foresting.</p><p>Halfling - Food druation / Tracking.</p><p>Humans - Yay .5 Harvesting time reduction. Diplomacy / Urban sprawl.</p><p>Ratonga - 5% all the time movespeed. </p><p>Wood elf - Gathering/foresting by 1s. Track / 5% move speed.</p><p>I'm sure all agree, those tend to not be as useful as 50% runspeed in combat when you are running for your life / Jumping off a cliff to try and live.  They all have their time and place though.</p><p>I'm not saying "Your wrong, racial traits are perfectly fine"</p><p>All i'm saying is, that unless you are planning to do extremely specific things, that the innate (or most the racial traditions for that matter) don't really matter that much between races.</p><p>You see on fighter forums a bit "What race should i be" "Obviously you have to be one with 3% max hp pool and physical reduction!" followed by "Meh the damage reduciton doesn't matter that much." "It totally does against bosses that hit hard!"</p><p>That said.</p><p>I do wish everyone had access to 1s reduction to harvesting >.></p>

Lethe5683
05-22-2010, 03:24 AM
<p><cite>Scfs123 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You seem to be focusing on Innate abilities, of the races with no falling damage / run speed as the ones that are to strong compared to rest.</p><p>"<span style="color: #993366;">-Kerra/Sarnak/Arasai/Fae: 50% increase to IN COMBAT run speed for 30 seconds; 5 min recast - This is extremely overpowered in PvP; change it to out of combat run speed only.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #993366;">-Safefall skill / Feather fall / Falling Damage Reduction– Very useful, especially in PvP and solo. Safefall Skill: Iksar, Kerra Feather Fall: Arasai, Dark Elf, Erudite, Fae, High Elf."</span></p><p>I don't think its much of a difference, you mention the 50% speed increase, but you leave out the 15% speed while stealthed racial. Which as you said, is due to "innate abilities not ones you pick"</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">==15% stealth is not innate, its one you pick that all scout races can choose.</span></p><p>Which i don't think is really fair.</p><p>Sure you get those few abilities, but you also get a buttload of other abilities based on your race to.</p><p>Which help compensate for the innate ones.</p><p>Like you say</p><p>"<span><span style="color: #993366;">Neither: Gnome, Half Elf, Halfling, Human, Ratonga, Wood Elf."</span></span></p><p>Lets look at what they get in exchange though.</p><p>Gnome - Free Field Repair /12 hours. and Reduces power cost of Tinkering skills by 25% and increases Tinkering by 10.0.</p><p>Half Elf - Tracking, Duration of Drinks, 1s off gathering/foresting.</p><p>Halfling - Food druation / Tracking.</p><p>Humans - Yay .5 Harvesting time reduction. Diplomacy / Urban sprawl.</p><p>Ratonga - 5% all the time movespeed. </p><p>Wood elf - Gathering/foresting by 1s. Track / 5% move speed.</p><p>I'm sure all agree, those tend to not be as useful as 50% runspeed in combat when you are running for your life / Jumping off a cliff to try and live.  They all have their time and place though.</p><p>I'm not saying "Your wrong, racial traits are perfectly fine"</p><p>All i'm saying is, that unless you are planning to do extremely specific things, that the innate (or most the racial traditions for that matter) don't really matter that much between races.</p><p>You see on fighter forums a bit "What race should i be" "Obviously you have to be one with 3% max hp pool and physical reduction!" followed by "Meh the damage reduciton doesn't matter that much." "It totally does against bosses that hit hard!"</p><p>That said.</p><p>I do wish everyone had access to 1s reduction to harvesting >.></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Innate traits are only the first four, the rest are for the most part not related directly to race but to what archetype your race is supposed to be.  All scout abilities are the same, all fighter abilities are the same, etc.  As a ratonga I would trade ALL of my innate racial traits for just the safe fall or just the in combat run speed without a second though.  5% ooc run speed is pretty trivial with the plethora of run speed items available, disarm trap is a joke as chests are no longer even remotely dangerous.  And don't even get me started on "Rob". XD</span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">And yeah, the harvest reduction time is pretty nice (I think, unless there's some sort of cap on how fast you can harvest).  Anyways, thanks for posting a polite and reasonable post unlike most people.</span></p>

Seiffil
05-22-2010, 04:18 AM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Innate traits are only the first four, the rest are for the most part not related directly to race but to what archetype your race is supposed to be.  All scout abilities are the same, all fighter abilities are the same, etc.  As a ratonga I would trade ALL of my innate racial traits for just the safe fall or just the in combat run speed without a second though.  5% ooc run speed is pretty trivial with the plethora of run speed items available, disarm trap is a joke as chests are no longer even remotely dangerous.  And don't even get me started on "Rob". XD</span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">And yeah, the harvest reduction time is pretty nice (I think, unless there's some sort of cap on how fast you can harvest).  Anyways, thanks for posting a polite and reasonable post unlike most people.</span></p></blockquote><p>Safe fall, whether you are refering to racial safe fall or featherfall is not OP, either completely or relatively.  The only thing it serves to do is allow someone to take a short cut of falling instead of following a longer path.  In this case, there are plenty of rather easily accessible featherfall cloaks available to the races that don't innately get featherfall.  Also which should be noted, if a race with the featherfall abilities is using a mount, which all of mine do, the racial featherfall doesn't work, which means I'll still carry cloak to keep from having to cast it. </p><p>If you are refering to the actual safe fall, such as what scouts have, I don't know how you could consider that overpowered.  While fighting, I've never needed to worry about whether or not I've had safe fall.  Honestly the only place I notice it is when jumping off a zone mount, and again whether the character has safe fall, featherfall, or not generally doesn't stop me just making that jump.</p><p>The 50% in combat runspeed is pretty much worthless to me, since I'm usually making sure my characters have a mount to rely on, solstice earring, or totems, and that runspeed is generally enough to help any of my characters train through whatever I need to get through.  The only place I could even begin to think it might be worthwhile, is in PVP combat, which if you're complaining because of racial traits being too powerful in PVP please stop.  Even with the addition of BGs, EQ2 is still primarily PVE first, not PVP, and to ask for a change in racial traits cause you don't like how its set up for PVP is ridiculous.</p><p>I just don't see how you can claim that these particular innate abilities are too strong.  As others have said, this does seem to be more like, I'm trying to get rather unimportant things changed to my own way rather then dealing with them.  You'll probably realize someday that the reactions to this new post, are going to be pretty much the same as they were on the previous post that got locked.</p><p>On another note, the harvest reduction times are capped at half the harvest speed, it's not going to harvest faster then 2.5 seconds, so once you are high enough to equip the overclocked harvesting tools or the T8 or T9 harvesting tools, the racial ability doesn't help.</p>

Lethe5683
05-22-2010, 06:07 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Innate traits are only the first four, the rest are for the most part not related directly to race but to what archetype your race is supposed to be.  All scout abilities are the same, all fighter abilities are the same, etc.  As a ratonga I would trade ALL of my innate racial traits for just the safe fall or just the in combat run speed without a second though.  5% ooc run speed is pretty trivial with the plethora of run speed items available, disarm trap is a joke as chests are no longer even remotely dangerous.  And don't even get me started on "Rob". XD</span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">And yeah, the harvest reduction time is pretty nice (I think, unless there's some sort of cap on how fast you can harvest).  Anyways, thanks for posting a polite and reasonable post unlike most people.</span></p></blockquote><p>Safe fall, whether you are refering to racial safe fall or featherfall is not OP, either completely or relatively.  The only thing it serves to do is allow someone to take a short cut of falling instead of following a longer path.  In this case, there are plenty of rather easily accessible featherfall cloaks available to the races that don't innately get featherfall.  Also which should be noted, if a race with the featherfall abilities is using a mount, which all of mine do, the racial featherfall doesn't work, which means I'll still carry cloak to keep from having to cast it. </p><p>If you are refering to the actual safe fall, such as what scouts have, I don't know how you could consider that overpowered.  While fighting, I've never needed to worry about whether or not I've had safe fall.  Honestly the only place I notice it is when jumping off a zone mount, and again whether the character has safe fall, featherfall, or not generally doesn't stop me just making that jump.</p><p>The 50% in combat runspeed is pretty much worthless to me, since I'm usually making sure my characters have a mount to rely on, solstice earring, or totems, and that runspeed is generally enough to help any of my characters train through whatever I need to get through.  The only place I could even begin to think it might be worthwhile, is in PVP combat, which if you're complaining because of racial traits being too powerful in PVP please stop.  Even with the addition of BGs, EQ2 is still primarily PVE first, not PVP, and to ask for a change in racial traits cause you don't like how its set up for PVP is ridiculous.</p><p>I just don't see how you can claim that these particular innate abilities are too strong.  As others have said, this does seem to be more like, I'm trying to get rather unimportant things changed to my own way rather then dealing with them.  You'll probably realize someday that the reactions to this new post, are going to be pretty much the same as they were on the previous post that got locked.</p><p>On another note, the harvest reduction times are capped at half the harvest speed, it's not going to harvest faster then 2.5 seconds, so once you are high enough to equip the overclocked harvesting tools or the T8 or T9 harvesting tools, the racial ability doesn't help.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Like I said, this is the reason I regret using the term "relatively OP" since apparently no one is able to understand what it means.  It's not that these abilities are too strong, it's that other racial traits are too crappy and certain racial traits do not make sense for the races that have / do not have them.  Also mounts and run speed items are not in combat movement speed, they are out of combat movement speed; training through enemies does not count as combat.</span></p>

Axterix
05-22-2010, 06:41 AM
<p><cite>ethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Innate traits are only the first four, the rest are for the most part not related directly to race but to what archetype your race is supposed to be.  All scout abilities are the same, all fighter abilities are the same, etc.  As a ratonga I would trade ALL of my innate racial traits for just the safe fall or just the in combat run speed without a second though.  5% ooc run speed is pretty trivial with the plethora of run speed items available, disarm trap is a joke as chests are no longer even remotely dangerous.  And don't even get me started on "Rob". XD</span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">And yeah, the harvest reduction time is pretty nice (I think, unless there's some sort of cap on how fast you can harvest).  Anyways, thanks for posting a polite and reasonable post unlike most people.</span></p></blockquote><p>Not quite all the picked ones are the same. High Elves and Erudites get several options others don't, due to being priest and mage.</p><p>For that matter, the picked ones are probably a bigger issue than the innates.  If you pick a mage/scout race as a priest or fighter, you wind up with the stat picks being of limited value, especially int.  And then you can get a boost to piercing, which goes great with a templar.  And so on.  The whole list winds up looking pretty bad.</p><p>Now, do those really matter?  *shrug*  But it does make it easy to decide to pick up tradeskill related racials <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I don't see a problem with the innate racials.  Yeah, I love Iksars' water breathing and safe fall.  But I also quite like my gnomes' disarm traps.</p><p>To me, it seems more like your problem is that you don't like the Ratonga racial traits.  And listing other things is just an attempt to try and get others to agree with you or the result of overthinking things.  Without much fact to back up why it should be changed.  Just a stated opinion.</p><p>My advice?  Make a case for why Ratonga racials need improving.  Leave the rest alone.  If others are an issue, it'll come out naturally enough.  And if you are just making a call to improve Ratongas, you'll be a lot more likely to garner support, assuming your position has merit, than if you call for making all races the same, making them rather bland.</p><p>Oh, and just for the record, seeing a fae take a swan dive into the ground as they realize their tiny wings don't work so well when they are on a mount...hilarious.</p>

Lethe5683
05-22-2010, 07:14 AM
<p><cite>Axterix wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>ethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Innate traits are only the first four, the rest are for the most part not related directly to race but to what archetype your race is supposed to be.  All scout abilities are the same, all fighter abilities are the same, etc.  As a ratonga I would trade ALL of my innate racial traits for just the safe fall or just the in combat run speed without a second though.  5% ooc run speed is pretty trivial with the plethora of run speed items available, disarm trap is a joke as chests are no longer even remotely dangerous.  And don't even get me started on "Rob". XD</span></p><p><span style="color: #993366;">And yeah, the harvest reduction time is pretty nice (I think, unless there's some sort of cap on how fast you can harvest).  Anyways, thanks for posting a polite and reasonable post unlike most people.</span></p></blockquote><p>Not quite all the picked ones are the same. High Elves and Erudites get several options others don't, due to being priest and mage.</p><p>For that matter, the picked ones are probably a bigger issue than the innates.  If you pick a mage/scout race as a priest or fighter, you wind up with the stat picks being of limited value, especially int.  And then you can get a boost to piercing, which goes great with a templar.  And so on.  The whole list winds up looking pretty bad.</p><p>Now, do those really matter?  *shrug*  But it does make it easy to decide to pick up tradeskill related racials <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I don't see a problem with the innate racials.  Yeah, I love Iksars' water breathing and safe fall.  But I also quite like my gnomes' disarm traps.</p><p>To me, it seems more like your problem is that you don't like the Ratonga racial traits.  And listing other things is just an attempt to try and get others to agree with you or the result of overthinking things.  Without much fact to back up why it should be changed.  Just a stated opinion.</p><p>My advice?  Make a case for why Ratonga racials need improving.  Leave the rest alone.  If others are an issue, it'll come out naturally enough.  And if you are just making a call to improve Ratongas, you'll be a lot more likely to garner support, assuming your position has merit, than if you call for making all races the same, making them rather bland.</p><p>Oh, and just for the record, seeing a fae take a swan dive into the ground as they realize their tiny wings don't work so well when they are on a mount...hilarious.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">This is a good post and pretty much correct, although I think many races need improvements.</span></p>

Nightshade
05-22-2010, 09:42 AM
<p>*agrees with everyone*</p><p>Does everyone agree with my agreement?</p><p>Oh, sorry, that's akin to dividing by zero. Carry on!</p>

Odys
05-23-2010, 11:36 AM
<p>Racial diffference are very small if you compare them with class/ gear and aas differences. PVP would only make sense if we would all play the same toon. I don't know what classe(s) currently dominate the PVP mini game, but there is certainly extreme differences.</p><p>Discussing about racial trait would make sense if the rest of the PVP game was fair.</p>

Lethe5683
05-24-2010, 01:20 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Racial diffference are very small if you compare them with class/ gear and aas differences. PVP would only make sense if we would all play the same toon. I don't know what classe(s) currently dominate the PVP mini game, but there is certainly extreme differences.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">Gear doesn't give things like in combat runspeed, track or safe fall.</span></p><p>Discussing about racial trait would make sense if the rest of the PVP game was fair.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">How is it ever supposed to become fair if people just dismiss it as being unfair instead of making small fixes to make it better. Saying that something is unfair as a reason that it should not be made more fair doesn't make very much sense to me.</span></p></blockquote>

Notsovilepriest
05-24-2010, 01:31 AM
<p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Racial diffference are very small if you compare them with class/ gear and aas differences. PVP would only make sense if we would all play the same toon. I don't know what classe(s) currently dominate the PVP mini game, but there is certainly extreme differences.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">Gear doesn't give things like in combat runspeed, track or safe fall.</span></p><p>Discussing about racial trait would make sense if the rest of the PVP game was fair.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">How is it ever supposed to become fair if people just dismiss it as being unfair instead of making small fixes to make it better. Saying that something is unfair as a reason that it should not be made more fair doesn't make very much sense to me.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>They Removed Marrows Song, Diamond Rod, any float cloak?</p>

Lethe5683
05-24-2010, 01:38 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Racial diffference are very small if you compare them with class/ gear and aas differences. PVP would only make sense if we would all play the same toon. I don't know what classe(s) currently dominate the PVP mini game, but there is certainly extreme differences.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">Gear doesn't give things like in combat runspeed, track or safe fall.</span></p><p>Discussing about racial trait would make sense if the rest of the PVP game was fair.</p><p><span style="color: #993366;">How is it ever supposed to become fair if people just dismiss it as being unfair instead of making small fixes to make it better. Saying that something is unfair as a reason that it should not be made more fair doesn't make very much sense to me.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>They Removed Marrows Song, Diamond Rod, any float cloak?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">Marrows song and diamond rod are very small amounts of in combat run speed, not anywhere near comparable to 50%, and you have to sacrifice using a much better piece of equipment in those slots.  Float cloak is not safe fall, it's Featherfall and again the Featherfall cloaks pretty much have no stats to speak of so you will be wasting yet another valuable equipment slot.</span></p>

Kyaaadaa
05-24-2010, 02:53 AM
<p>I'm a huge fan on a certain game that has races pegged out thusly:</p><p>Race A: much increased strength, natural defense and hit points, lowered int and wis and power. No racial clickies.</p><p>Race B: increased strength, much increased nat defense and hit points, lower int and cha, very little power. No racial clickies.</p><p>Race C: much increased dex/agi, lowered strength, nat defense and hit points, slightly more power. No racial clickies.</p><p>Race D: Average stats across board (Humans, go fig). No racial clickies.</p><p>Race E: much lowered strength, nat defense and hit points, much increased int and power. No racial clickies.</p><p>No racial clickies... ever. Back in the day, your stats were the only thing that set you apart from your fellow players aside from looks. Your stats helped define what kind of playability your class had. Race E as a fighter would last much longer tossing out combat arts, but would get dropped faster. Race A would make a poor wizard, but could take more hits. But no one race was ever "the race of the month" because of granted special clickies or traits. No slow fall, no glide, no track, no run speed, no teleport, nothing. Be happy this game gives you anything at all. It could always be worse.</p>

Lethe5683
05-24-2010, 09:38 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm a huge fan on a certain game that has races pegged out thusly:</p><p>Race A: much increased strength, natural defense and hit points, lowered int and wis and power. No racial clickies.</p><p>Race B: increased strength, much increased nat defense and hit points, lower int and cha, very little power. No racial clickies.</p><p>Race C: much increased dex/agi, lowered strength, nat defense and hit points, slightly more power. No racial clickies.</p><p>Race D: Average stats across board (Humans, go fig). No racial clickies.</p><p>Race E: much lowered strength, nat defense and hit points, much increased int and power. No racial clickies.</p><p>No racial clickies... ever. Back in the day, your stats were the only thing that set you apart from your fellow players aside from looks. Your stats helped define what kind of playability your class had. Race E as a fighter would last much longer tossing out combat arts, but would get dropped faster. Race A would make a poor wizard, but could take more hits. But no one race was ever "the race of the month" because of granted special clickies or traits. No slow fall, no glide, no track, no run speed, no teleport, nothing. Be happy this game gives you anything at all. It could always be worse.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #993366;">I would love that, but I don't think I would ever in a million years have any luck getting EQ2 changed that much.</span></p>