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View Full Version : Necro (summoner) survivability for those who are lazy to kite


Dorsan
05-18-2010, 07:47 AM
<p>Okay, so I've read on many places how we summoners are defenseless, and it's all nice and sweet, but let's take a look what the tank pet can do for our survivability. You'd be surprised... I'd also recommend conjurors to read this as we share many common AA's and their pet is probably similar.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Tank pet CC</strong></span></p><p>So let's start with the tank pet's CC abilities, as good CC helps with survivability... So here is what our tank pet casts when PvP checkbox is enabled:</p><p>Graven Breath - single target stiffle for 3.0 secGraven Vanquishing - single target fear for 2.1 secGraven Frenzy - single target root for 5.0 secGraven Strike - single target direct damage + 20% chance to force targetGraven Scream - encounter root for 5.0 sec + 20% chance to force targetGraven Assault - encounter stiffle for 2.3 sec</p><p>Although we have absolutely no control over this and these skills will be resisted a lot, they will still improve our survivability in 1on1 situations.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Defensive AA build</strong></span></p><p>The next step is to look at the shared old summoner tree and see what we have for defense there:</p><p>Parrying Rank 10 - 10% uncontested parryCabalists Cover 10 - 65% chance for pet avoidance *explanation belowShockwave - instant cast AE knockback and 1.2 sec stunPerceptors Command 10 - single target instant cast taunt lock for 2 sec to pet (<em>on short recast!!!</em>)Animist's Transference - heal/selfheal using pets healthMinion's Warding 10 - 20% chance to prevent 90% of incoming spell damage</p><p><em>*while many argue that Cabalists Cover is useless, it does provide for around 7% real avoidance and 10% if shield of bones is specced if you use tank pet in defense stance</em></p><p>For the TSO trees and character development, you will want to max your health - because with bigger health pool you can take more hits before going down. You will also want to max the physical mitigation in character development because our cloth mitigation is so low that this will be very noticable. Also shield of bones is very important AA for the defensive tank pet necro build because it provides 5% uncontested block chance for the pet, which then translates into 3.25% uncontested block chance for the necro with Cabalists Cover.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Food/drink</strong></span></p><p>A defensive necro will eat and drink defensively too. Great stuff for this purpose are:</p><p>Gazer Vitreous Infusion (+15.4 INT, 2.5% uncontested avoidance)Gazer Nerve Reduction (+20.8 INT, 2.5% uncontested avoidance)</p><p>With the Cabalists Cover and Parrying this ammounts for 25% total real PvP avoidance.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Gear choices</strong></span></p><p>You will want to gear defensively. Make sure you have at least one stoneskin proccing item (Gynok ring or PvP equivalent is meant for necros, its stats are still ok even in T9, gives some pet buffs and grants 18% of all incoming damage avoidance - I haven't seen a T9 item that gives you more for the slot - just with this one item plus the defensive build, you already disabled 40% of the attacking scouts damage compared to "standard" necro build) Also make sure to have as much heal/ward proccing gear you can get while maxing your toughness to the highest possible value.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Clickies</strong></span></p><p>If you want to excell you must be prepared in emergency situations. Get your tinkering to max and use the tinkered healing items, they are gold. Stun/stiffle/fear pots are a must as well as curing pots. You will want all the signets too. Ward pots - yes! Basically, if you can click it and it does anything, have it on your hotbar.</p><p>All in all, you can get to reasonable mitigation, avoidance and free CC from your pet while your own CC is still at your disposal (stun, fear, root, snare). You are able to selfheal for 500-1000 HPS and dish out some recent DPS.</p>

Killque
05-18-2010, 10:25 AM
<p>Very informitive write up. Thank you for taking the time to do so.</p><p>I cant stress enough how important tinkered items are in pvp. The Overclocked heal and power items are HUGE. I can replentish around 3000-4000 HP/Power with the click of a button INSTANTLY.</p><p>Also feign death is something that is too often overlooked. One of the brawlers best utilities is at everyones fingertips with just a little effort. There are 3 FD items so you get several attempts even.</p><p>Train to mobs, FD and the person you are fighting wont see it coming.</p><p>Automated Defibrillator is a great item as well both in PvP and in PvE</p>

Sapphy
05-18-2010, 01:41 PM
<p>Nice writeup <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>It seems very workable, but I think what needs to be accounted for is opponent options in these scenarios as well.  A lot of summoner success seems (although i'm not a summoner) to stem from pet induced crowd control.  A really hard problem for crowd control classes at the moment is that, for being such a core move to the class, there still exists a lot of options that put the workability of crowd control largely into the opponents hands.</p><p>-The very high crowd control resistability now against defensive classes is always going to be hard to work around of course.</p><p>-Crowd Control immunities- from stifle/stun/fear pots, pvp charms, signets, pvp items and other easy to find items, and class based abilities and buffs (sanctuary, aura of the crusader, etc..), and immunities from your own crowd control that have been removed.</p><p>-Moves that work around crowd control (example shadowstep porting out of root)</p><p>-Your pets ability to be disabled.  Pet debuff removal seems to be a lot harder than normal making you vulnerable to attack (and decreasing dmg output). </p><p>-loss of target moves</p><p>-wards, evasion abilities, manashield and other moves that can limit or fully prevent damage during disabled periods.</p><p>-and the loss of spell damage may also decrease your ability to capitalize on the debuffs even when they are up.</p><p>The block chances and evasive chances for necromancer seem pretty solid but it still seems (and I could be mistaken) like necromancer would have a hard time with survivability even with these options on an equal gear and skill level.</p>

Eritius
05-18-2010, 02:45 PM
<p>I asked something in another thread about Summoners vs something else. The summoner in question was noting how he was getting demolished in PVP. What I asked was if he or she was PVP specc'd. Either the thread fell off the list or got deleted before I got an answer.</p><p>I'm not saying Summoners don't need some buffs, but how many peeps are going into BG's with PVE raid/group/solo specs? If you are running in there with a non-PVP spec, you can't complain about balance. This goes for all classes in fact.</p><p>Don't sit back and halfass your spec because you think others wouldn't go 100% with a PVP spec. They will and they do. Play your full hand, your opponent will.</p>

Badmotorfinger
05-18-2010, 03:13 PM
<p>PVP with your tank pet is a laughable failure. lol, wow. </p><p>Also, the spec is not the issue... at all.  Yes, you should spec those defensive categories, but it's not a "solution".</p><p>Right now, there's a lot of differnt little things that can be done to increase your effectiveness when you have the lower hand and be successful.  The OP listed them.  The problem; is always having the lower hand.  It's just like the whole pathetic "kite" solution.  A conjuror or 'summoner' doesn't kite any more successfully than any other class.</p><p>Summoner's aren't unplayable.  You just have to make due for now.  Best solution available?  Group with a decent healer and stay in his range.  Stoneskins and pet taunts should help keep the burst down and give a little time for the healer to keep you 'green'... oh and just avoid rangers completly.</p>

Dorsan
05-18-2010, 03:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>PVP with your tank pet is a laughable failure. lol, wow. </p></blockquote><p>Is it so? I just parsed with expert tank pet in defensive stance and master mage pet in offensive stance and the overall DPS loss was 25%. And this was PVE parse. In PVP our mage pet's effectivenes gets additionally reduced and the survivability from tank pet more then compensates for 25% DPS loss. For battlegrounds scenario or group PvP I would mostly go with mage pet (although for PUGs I keep switching pets depending on the situation - if we get a group without a tank I will sure as hell go with the tank pet for the taunts).</p><p>I think that the laughable failure is that you are unable to even consider alternatives to whatever you are currently doing.</p>

Stuckx
05-18-2010, 04:28 PM
<p>If you think summoners are fine like they are,then I don't know what to tell you. I've stopped playing mine..so I guess you can just continue to enjoy getting owned by ranger auto attack.</p><p>I watched your video,and tbh..you weren't actually doing any noticeable damage to anyone. No one died from your DPS,the only time anyone died was when your group decided to kill your target. Ontop of that..when people actually targeted you to kill you..you died instantly,even with your healer nearby.</p><p>You and Koppar seem to be the only summoners who are okay with the class as they are now. Everyone else can clearly see that our DPS is terrible,and so is our survivability. Our defensive AA's are useless. They won't make any noticeable difference in our survivability,unlike battle hardening or those nifty little wards that sorcs have.</p>

Badmotorfinger
05-18-2010, 04:29 PM
<p>Necro's are responsible for a lot more of their DPS where Conjurors rely quite a bit more on their pet for DPS.  And the Conji Tank Pet doesn't keep me alive any longer to have the DPS loss be any benefit.  Maybe the Necro pet has more or better CCs... I'll have to look when I get home from work, but I never see them hit.  The only benefit I ever saw with the tank pet was the group knockback, but it was never enough of a benefit to ditch the dps.  It may be a better option for a Necro than a Conji.</p>

Davngr1
05-18-2010, 05:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>PVP with your tank pet is a laughable failure. lol, wow. </p></blockquote><p>Is it so? I just parsed with expert tank pet in defensive stance and master mage pet in offensive stance and the overall DPS loss was 25%. And this was PVE parse. In PVP our mage pet's effectivenes gets additionally reduced and the survivability from tank pet more then compensates for 25% DPS loss. For battlegrounds scenario or group PvP I would mostly go with mage pet (although for PUGs I keep switching pets depending on the situation - if we get a group without a tank I will sure as hell go with the tank pet for the taunts).</p><p>I think that the laughable failure is that you are unable to even consider alternatives to whatever you are currently doing.</p></blockquote><p>yes it is a failure.</p><p>  granted in a real PvP server a tank pet might grant you a small advantage but in BG were all players are ready and alert to attack the tank does nothing more then provide a quick annoyence before the summoner get's ripped apart.</p><p> btw 3/5 of your post was general PvP savy and thus has nothing to do with specific summoner issues.</p><p>  summoners don't need a whole lot:</p><p> both summoners need some type of direct survivability ability (since the pet is so easy to bypass).</p><p>necros need to become immune to HP penalties while in PvP combat.</p>

Davngr1
05-18-2010, 05:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Necro's are responsible for a lot more of their DPS where Conjurors rely quite a bit more on their pet for DPS.  And the Conji Tank Pet doesn't keep me alive any longer to have the DPS loss be any benefit.  Maybe the Necro pet has more or better CCs... I'll have to look when I get home from work, but I never see them hit.  The only benefit I ever saw with the tank pet was the group knockback, but it was never enough of a benefit to ditch the dps.  It may be a better option for a Necro than a Conji.</p></blockquote><p> this guy has no clue what he's talking about as far as necro goes either.    your points are correct for BOTH summoner.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-18-2010, 05:06 PM
<p>A fun thing is that you claim that only me and Dorsan think necros are fine. But I dont see many more claiming that they are broken.</p>

Stuckx
05-18-2010, 05:09 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A fun thing is that you claim that only me and Dorsan think necros are fine. But I dont see many more claiming that they are broken.</p></blockquote><p>There have been several people on all the 'fix caster' threads saying the summoners need help. Honestly,I don't even see why you're arguing the point. It's going to help YOUR class if they ever fix it,and regardless of what you think..summoners NEED help. Dieing instantly when any scout decides to turn his auto attack on you is not fun. Being unable to kill a solo tank because they can outheal your DPS is not fun.</p>

Tehom
05-18-2010, 05:11 PM
<p>Why do you have so many ranks in Perceptor's Command? It didn't look like anything was different after the first rank in pvp to me.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-18-2010, 05:14 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>PVP with your tank pet is a laughable failure. lol, wow. </p></blockquote><p>Is it so? I just parsed with expert tank pet in defensive stance and master mage pet in offensive stance and the overall DPS loss was 25%. And this was PVE parse. In PVP our mage pet's effectivenes gets additionally reduced and the survivability from tank pet more then compensates for 25% DPS loss. For battlegrounds scenario or group PvP I would mostly go with mage pet (although for PUGs I keep switching pets depending on the situation - if we get a group without a tank I will sure as hell go with the tank pet for the taunts).</p><p>I think that the laughable failure is that you are unable to even consider alternatives to whatever you are currently doing.</p></blockquote><p>yes it is a failure.</p><p>  granted in a real PvP server a tank pet might grant you a small advantage but in BG were all players are ready and alert to attack the tank does nothing more then provide a quick annoyence before the summoner get's ripped apart.</p><p> btw 3/5 of your post was general PvP savy and thus has nothing to do with specific summoner issues.</p><p>  summoners don't need a whole lot:</p><p> both summoners need some type of direct survivability ability (since the pet is so easy to bypass).</p><p>necros need to become immune to HP penalties while in PvP combat.</p></blockquote><p>You said in a few posts that ppl are rdy and alert in BG. Do you think ppl run around not alert in open world? It much easier to play a necro in bg, since we are rdy then. Mages are one of the classes the are jumped often in open world we dont jump ppl that much in openwold pvp.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-18-2010, 05:33 PM
<p>Some BG shot in random pugs. I seam to do the same dps as all the others?</p><p><img src="http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/Kopparmalm/Heals.png" /></p><p><img src="http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/Kopparmalm/Geras.png" /></p><p><img src="http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/Kopparmalm/Ganark.png" width="1024" height="640" /></p>

Davngr1
05-18-2010, 05:36 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>PVP with your tank pet is a laughable failure. lol, wow. </p></blockquote><p>Is it so? I just parsed with expert tank pet in defensive stance and master mage pet in offensive stance and the overall DPS loss was 25%. And this was PVE parse. In PVP our mage pet's effectivenes gets additionally reduced and the survivability from tank pet more then compensates for 25% DPS loss. For battlegrounds scenario or group PvP I would mostly go with mage pet (although for PUGs I keep switching pets depending on the situation - if we get a group without a tank I will sure as hell go with the tank pet for the taunts).</p><p>I think that the laughable failure is that you are unable to even consider alternatives to whatever you are currently doing.</p></blockquote><p>yes it is a failure.</p><p>  granted in a real PvP server a tank pet might grant you a small advantage but in BG were all players are ready and alert to attack the tank does nothing more then provide a quick annoyence before the summoner get's ripped apart.</p><p> btw 3/5 of your post was general PvP savy and thus has nothing to do with specific summoner issues.</p><p>  summoners don't need a whole lot:</p><p> both summoners need some type of direct survivability ability (since the pet is so easy to bypass).</p><p>necros need to become immune to HP penalties while in PvP combat.</p></blockquote><p>You said in a few posts that ppl are rdy and alert in BG. Do you think ppl run around not alert in open world? It much easier to play a necro in bg, since we are rdy then. Mages are one of the classes the are jumped often in open world we dont jump ppl that much in openwold pvp.</p></blockquote><p>what you say still has nothing to do with the issues that the class.</p><p> all you do is say " i do this" "i do that" well any class can do "this" or "that"  the point is that in a pvp setting the pet dependant survivability does very little for the summoner.</p><p>  what pet do you both use? </p><p> how much does your pet help your survivability?</p><p> your arguements are empty.</p>

LardLord
05-18-2010, 05:52 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Some BG shot in random pugs. I seam to do the same dps as all the others?</p></blockquote><p>Impressive numbers! Care to share an ACT breakdown of your parse from any of those games?</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-18-2010, 06:01 PM
<p>Dont have acts on thoes but I got 1 torrent piece and 1 pestilent rain piece.</p>

LardLord
05-18-2010, 06:02 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dont have acts on thoes but I got 1 torrent piece and 1 pestilent rain piece.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, thanks.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-18-2010, 06:39 PM
<p>Smugglers with parse, the pet is not included.</p><p><img src="http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/Kopparmalm/Sumggler2.png" /></p><p><img src="http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/Kopparmalm/Smugglerparse2.png" /></p>

Siphar
05-18-2010, 08:51 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Okay, so I've read on many places how we summoners are defenseless, and it's all nice and sweet, but let's take a look what the tank pet can do for our survivability. You'd be surprised... I'd also recommend conjurors to read this as we share many common AA's and their pet is probably similar.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Tank pet CC</strong></span></p><p>So let's start with the tank pet's CC abilities, as good CC helps with survivability... So here is what our tank pet casts when PvP checkbox is enabled:</p><p>Graven Breath - single target stiffle for 3.0 secGraven Vanquishing - single target fear for 2.1 secGraven Frenzy - single target root for 5.0 secGraven Strike - single target direct damage + 20% chance to force targetGraven Scream - encounter root for 5.0 sec + 20% chance to force targetGraven Assault - encounter stiffle for 2.3 sec</p><p>Although we have absolutely no control over this and these skills will be resisted a lot, they will still improve our survivability in 1on1 situations.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Defensive AA build</strong></span></p><p>The next step is to look at the shared old summoner tree and see what we have for defense there:</p><p>Parrying Rank 10 - 10% uncontested parryCabalists Cover 10 - 65% chance for pet avoidance *explanation belowShockwave - instant cast AE knockback and 1.2 sec stunPerceptors Command 10 - single target instant cast taunt lock for 2 sec to pet (<em>on short recast!!!</em>)Animist's Transference - heal/selfheal using pets healthMinion's Warding 10 - 20% chance to prevent 90% of incoming spell damage</p><p><em>*while many argue that Cabalists Cover is useless, it does provide for around 7% real avoidance and 10% if shield of bones is specced if you use tank pet in defense stance</em></p><p>For the TSO trees and character development, you will want to max your health - because with bigger health pool you can take more hits before going down. You will also want to max the physical mitigation in character development because our cloth mitigation is so low that this will be very noticable. Also shield of bones is very important AA for the defensive tank pet necro build because it provides 5% uncontested block chance for the pet, which then translates into 3.25% uncontested block chance for the necro with Cabalists Cover.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Food/drink</strong></span></p><p>A defensive necro will eat and drink defensively too. Great stuff for this purpose are:</p><p>Gazer Vitreous Infusion (+15.4 INT, 2.5% uncontested avoidance)Gazer Nerve Reduction (+20.8 INT, 2.5% uncontested avoidance)</p><p>With the Cabalists Cover and Parrying this ammounts for 25% total real PvP avoidance.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Gear choices</strong></span></p><p>You will want to gear defensively. Make sure you have at least one stoneskin proccing item (Gynok ring or PvP equivalent is meant for necros, its stats are still ok even in T9, gives some pet buffs and grants 18% of all incoming damage avoidance - I haven't seen a T9 item that gives you more for the slot - just with this one item plus the defensive build, you already disabled 40% of the attacking scouts damage compared to "standard" necro build) Also make sure to have as much heal/ward proccing gear you can get while maxing your toughness to the highest possible value.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Clickies</strong></span></p><p>If you want to excell you must be prepared in emergency situations. Get your tinkering to max and use the tinkered healing items, they are gold. Stun/stiffle/fear pots are a must as well as curing pots. You will want all the signets too. Ward pots - yes! Basically, if you can click it and it does anything, have it on your hotbar.</p><p>All in all, you can get to reasonable mitigation, avoidance and free CC from your pet while your own CC is still at your disposal (stun, fear, root, snare). You are able to selfheal for 500-1000 HPS and dish out some recent DPS.</p></blockquote><p>Speccing in all defensive means your dps is severely reduced, meaning you last an extra 2-5 seconds, then die due to lack of dps.</p><p>The only viable solution for summoners/enchanters is to stay near decent tanks that know how to taunt.</p>

Eritius
05-18-2010, 08:51 PM
<p>If the tank pet is a failure. Where is your PVP guide then that shows the proper way? If you can't show something better, then you're just a troll.</p><p>At least the OP is trying to offer help with a way that works for him at least.</p>

Stuckx
05-18-2010, 08:57 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If the tank pet is a failure. Where is your PVP guide then that shows the proper way? If you can't show something better, then you're just a troll.</p><p>At least the OP is trying to offer help with a way that works for him at least.</p></blockquote><p>The OP really didn't offer anything at all. Every single summoner will already be spec'd that way because there's not really anything else worth specing into in the summoner tree.</p><p>Tank pet is an absolute failure because it does barely 1/3 of the mage pet's DPS,and won't help you survive at all.</p>

Dorsan
05-18-2010, 09:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you think summoners are fine like they are,then I don't know what to tell you. I've stopped playing mine..</p></blockquote><p>I will be very blunt here. You didn't even PvP on yours before conjurors got the "I WIN" button and stopped playing when they lost it. I don't think it is a loss to the summoner community that you aren't playing yours.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Necro's are responsible for a lot more of their DPS where Conjurors rely quite a bit more on their pet for DPS.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, that might be a valid argument. But again, how much of the pet dps comes from innate skills and how much from skills gained from AAs? You should probably test all your pets and see what works best for you. The tank pet is mostly useful for necro solo PvP.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> granted in a real PvP server a tank pet might grant you a small advantage but in BG were all players are ready and alert to attack the tank does nothing more then provide a quick annoyence before the summoner get's ripped apart.</blockquote><p>Hence this is in PvP forum not in Battlegrounds forum. But the survivability build is mostly still relevant in BG too.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> this guy has no clue what he's talking about as far as necro goes either.    your points are correct for BOTH summoner.</p></blockquote><p>Can you point out which part of the OP was incorrect and why? Because as it is you are just flaming.</p><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why do you have so many ranks in Perceptor's Command? It didn't look like anything was different after the first rank in pvp to me.</p></blockquote><p>Because the AA mirror can only store 2 AA builds and my PvP build is also my solo tank pet build.</p><p><cite>Siphar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Speccing in all defensive means your dps is severely reduced, meaning you last an extra 2-5 seconds, then die due to lack of dps.</p><p>The only viable solution for summoners/enchanters is to stay near decent tanks that know how to taunt.</p></blockquote><p>Those 2-5 seconds are all you need to be able to survive the ouch situations and then use your cc and kill the person. The problem is if you are all offensive and someone jumps you - you will be dead before you can cast a single fear spell.</p>

Stuckx
05-18-2010, 09:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you think summoners are fine like they are,then I don't know what to tell you. I've stopped playing mine..</p></blockquote><p>I will be very blunt here. You didn't even PvP on yours before conjurors got the "I WIN" button and stopped playing when they lost it. I don't think it is a loss to the summoner community that you aren't playing yours.</p></blockquote><p>I PVP'd pretty much everyday on my conjuror in T8. I didn't have an I win button then,and I did just fine. I stopped playing my conjuror because I have no desire to be a free update for scouts that have to click two buttons to kill me. Simple as that. Why play the asbolute gimpiest class in game,that dies so easy and has such a hard time killing people,when you can play a class that has no problem staying alive,and puts out excellent DPS?</p><blockquote><p>This is exactly the state conjurors are currently in. The class is USELESS in PVP. We bring no utility to the table,we're the easiest target in the game to kill,and with the resist nerf,we bring terrible DPS. WHY WOULD ANYONE BRING A SUMMONER OVER ANY DPS CLASS THAT CAN DPS TWENTY TIMES MORE EFFICIENTLY.</p><p>That is the root of the problem. No one in their right mind would chose a conjuror over a bard/chanter for utility,nor would they chose a conjuror over any other DPS class,when any other DPS class can perform that function more efficiently.</p><p>I'll say it again..When the class is not wanted because it cannot perform is primary function..it is broken. If you can't understand that simple concept,then I don't know what else to tell you.</p></blockquote>

Beagest
05-19-2010, 08:18 AM
<p>Summoners are fine in both solo and group pvp situations (in the right hands). My locked 70 Conj does work, any boost would make them the new crusaders.</p>

Dorsan
05-19-2010, 09:11 AM
The problem is that at the beginning of SF we were the new crusaders. And now many wants to go back there. I hated every single minute of it.

baldwinboy3
05-19-2010, 12:20 PM
<p>Back when max lvl was 70 i had a necro at 70 and did really well with him. Also locked a necro at 46 because players said they where terrible. I find that when i was successful wiht necro and other that are successful wtih necro when they have certain gear. and usually its rare gear and hard to get. The necro i had at 46 wore that 40 to 43 fabled gear with all the fear procs or baffle proc and stuff like that. With that and my tank pet solo, or my sorc pet in grps. I was able to obtain Master title (titles mean crap now but back then it was something).</p><p>I just rolled a necro two days ago and will lock him at 43 for Perma locking and plan to get alot of that fabled proc gear that truly helps. With a full set of it and a mix of pvp gear you have like 50% change to proc that stuff. Not sure exactly on that number because it has been a while.</p><p>Not sure on my AA line exactly yet but will try a combo of all the above here in the forums and others i have tried before. I know in lower tiers LB does well. At lvl 20 my necors LB would take 60% HP and follow by dots and a lifetap and it was all over. not sure in higher tiers because I respeced after lvl 20 from LB.</p><p>Necro is really depenedant on gear, speicific gear that is rare then most others. I can take any SK, warden, brig/swahsy, assassin/ranger, zerker/pally and put in MC and use few peices of pvp gear and be sick fast. but the Necro takes a lot more attention to little deatails and twinking as hard as possible and farming for that gear you need. Those who do well with necro are the onces i see with this type of gear. so i am saying it is harder to be good at necor but not impossible.</p>

Davngr1
05-19-2010, 03:29 PM
<p>the amount of ego you have sir is blinding (mostly your self).</p> <p> summoners the new crusader?   when resist where broken i was one shoting summoners (specially necros) on my wiz and assassin.  </p> <p>  1. you're clueless to the ACTUAL needs of summoners in BG's.</p> <p>  2. 3/5 of your post is about GENERAL survivability for ANY class yet you post it to summoners?</p> <p>  3. you offer BAD advice for BG since a defensive build using a tank pet is almost useless and before you try to argue that:</p> <p><a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/nite2regret/necrobg.jpg" border="0" /></a></p> <p>  you're own egotistical video proves you, YOURSELF don't use a tank pet or the defensive build you OFFER others since that build is USELESS when using a MAGE pet.</p> <p> please fail moar.</p> <p> summoners need some type of PERSONA (non-pet specific) survivability abilities that is what the class needs to be balanced with other casters.</p> <p> necros need a break on the health PENALTIES in PvP settings.</p> <p> if you dont agree with those then you don't know what you're talking about and thus should not be posting "advice".</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-19-2010, 03:33 PM
<p>And you should stop post ween ween stuff?</p>

Stuckx
05-19-2010, 03:36 PM
<p>Why play a summoner with poor DPS,and terrible survivability,when you could play a scout and have five times the survivability and five times the DPS?</p><p>Anyone who would take a summoner for DPS over a scout is a complete an absolute [Removed for Content]. This is the issue here. SUMMONERS ARE USELESS IN PVP.</p>

Davngr1
05-19-2010, 03:48 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And you should stop post ween ween stuff?</p></blockquote><p>sure when you stop posting dps parses when im arguing for SURVIVABILITY?</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-19-2010, 03:59 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And you should stop post ween ween stuff?</p></blockquote><p>sure when you stop posting dps parses when im arguing for SURVIVABILITY?</p></blockquote><p>Who said I was arguing with you when there are other ppl complaning over the dps?</p>

Stuckx
05-19-2010, 04:03 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And you should stop post ween ween stuff?</p></blockquote><p>sure when you stop posting dps parses when im arguing for SURVIVABILITY?</p></blockquote><p>Who said I was arguing with you when there are other ppl complaning over the dps?</p></blockquote><p>I'm not just arguing over DPS. I'm arguing for a COMPLETE fix for summoners,and the damage output of our spells needs to be included in that fix. I don't care if you top the damage in a BG..that doesn't mean your DPS made any difference. Death by a thousand paper cuts,except no one is dieing to your DPS because they have healers.</p><p>And btw,if you're outparsing any scout in a BG..then you those scouts are absolutely terrible.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-19-2010, 04:07 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And you should stop post ween ween stuff?</p></blockquote><p>sure when you stop posting dps parses when im arguing for SURVIVABILITY?</p></blockquote><p>Who said I was arguing with you when there are other ppl complaning over the dps?</p></blockquote><p>I'm not just arguing over DPS. I'm arguing for a COMPLETE fix for summoners,and the damage output of our spells needs to be included in that fix. I don't care if you top the damage in a BG..that doesn't mean your DPS made any difference. Death by a thousand paper cuts,except no one is dieing to your DPS because they have healers.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>And btw,if you're outparsing any scout in a BG..then you those scouts are absolutely terrible.</strong></span></p></blockquote><p>Wow there must bee alot of terrible scouts then.</p>

Stuckx
05-19-2010, 04:08 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And you should stop post ween ween stuff?</p></blockquote><p>sure when you stop posting dps parses when im arguing for SURVIVABILITY?</p></blockquote><p>Who said I was arguing with you when there are other ppl complaning over the dps?</p></blockquote><p>I'm not just arguing over DPS. I'm arguing for a COMPLETE fix for summoners,and the damage output of our spells needs to be included in that fix. I don't care if you top the damage in a BG..that doesn't mean your DPS made any difference. Death by a thousand paper cuts,except no one is dieing to your DPS because they have healers.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>And btw,if you're outparsing any scout in a BG..then you those scouts are absolutely terrible.</strong></span></p></blockquote><p>Wow there must bee alot of terrible scouts then.</p></blockquote><p>Apparently,considering their auto attack does more damage than my biggest hitting single target spell.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-19-2010, 04:16 PM
<p>Must be many terrible healers also?</p><p><img src="http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz124/Kopparmalm/Kopparthehealer.png" width="1024" height="640" /></p>

Davngr1
05-19-2010, 04:32 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And you should stop post ween ween stuff?</p></blockquote><p>sure when you stop posting dps parses when im arguing for SURVIVABILITY?</p></blockquote><p>Who said I was arguing with you when there are other ppl complaning over the dps?</p></blockquote><p>so you agree that summoners need survivability?</p><p> if so then we have nothing further to discuss.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-19-2010, 04:45 PM
<p>Maybe a litle. but ouer survivability is higher then in t8. And I dont want my necro to become SK Op crap. And tbh I´m fine with ouer class atm.</p>

Stuckx
05-19-2010, 04:49 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Maybe a litle. but ouer survivability is higher then in t8. And I dont want my necro to become SK Op crap. And tbh I´m fine with ouer class atm.</p></blockquote><p>Our survivability is no where near what it was in T8. Rangers and assassins insta-kill us,brigands and swashbucklers can do it in about five seconds..any tank can heal through our DPS and melee auto attack us to death easily..if we do somehow manage to kite them,and they aren't complete morons,they can just turn bow auto attack on and kill us within 1-2 bow auto attacks.</p><p>In T8,I could take a few hits from an assassin and still be stand a chance,in T9,it's either I kill them because they did absolutely zero damage to me,or I die instantly.</p><p>So I don't know how you can say our survivability is better than T8 without looking like an idiot.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-19-2010, 04:52 PM
<p>Well do you play a necro?</p>

Stuckx
05-19-2010, 04:55 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well do you play a necro?</p></blockquote><p>No,I play a conj. And majority of people saying that summoners are fine are Necro's. So maybe it's just conjurors.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-19-2010, 04:55 PM
<p>I heal for over 1000hps and I did like 200hps in tso</p>

Stuckx
05-19-2010, 04:57 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I heal for over 1000hps and I did like 200hps in tso</p></blockquote><p>I don't heal at all,and stoneskins are useless.</p>

Crismorn
05-19-2010, 04:59 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I heal for over 1000hps and I did like 200hps in tso</p></blockquote><p>Heal parses are stupid.</p><p>Saying a class is balanced because you can go into a BG with a pre-made and kill people is equally stupid.</p><p>Stop being stupid</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-19-2010, 05:12 PM
<p>Wich I dont say. I kill ppl in pugs, and my survivability is higher in t9 then in t8 and yes I heal much more in t9.</p><p>Can you stop beeing stupid?</p>

Crismorn
05-19-2010, 05:19 PM
<p>both summoners need more dmg, preferably spike dmg.</p>

Dorsan
05-19-2010, 10:26 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the amount of ego you have sir is blinding (mostly your self).</p></blockquote><p>How about you stop insulting people?</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> summoners the new crusader?   when resist where broken i was one shoting summoners (specially necros) on my wiz and assassin.  </p></blockquote><p>You were also one shoting crusagers on your wiz and assassin. And necros were able to stun anyone and kill them before the 5 second stun was over. It was enough to send pet to attack, cast 1 Bloodcoil and 1 Bewilderment for people to be dead. And with Elemental Toxicity you could cast Pandemic, Bloodcloud and the AE spell from Siphoning of the Souls and whole groups just died.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  1. you're clueless to the ACTUAL needs of summoners in BG's.</p></blockquote><p>You sir are in wrong forum. This is PvP section and -not- BG section.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>  2. 3/5 of your post is about GENERAL survivability for ANY class yet you post it to summoners?</blockquote><p>I listed everything I could remember to help with survivability to help people who have problems. While you for some reason see this as a personal insult to yourself - which is clear from your inappropriate behaviour - this post was intended to help people.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  3. you offer BAD advice for BG since a defensive build using a tank pet is almost useless and before you try to argue that:</p>  you're own egotistical video proves you, YOURSELF don't use a tank pet or the defensive build you OFFER others since that build is USELESS when using a MAGE pet.</blockquote><p>You are not only in the wrong section, you also ignore what people write to you. The video was posted in the BG section and this is in PvP section. In BG section I wrote that people should read this because it has -some- information relevant to BGs and I was hoping that people will be smart enough to see where BG and PvP are different and what to adjust. You are not only using arguments that have nothing to do with the topic, you also keep ignoring the answers you get and then repeat your original argument. Here is my original answer to your original post which you ignored and wrote a new set of insults instead.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> granted in a real PvP server a tank pet might grant you a small advantage but in BG were all players are ready and alert to attack the tank does nothing more then provide a quick annoyence before the summoner get's ripped apart.</blockquote><p>Hence this is in PvP forum not in Battlegrounds forum. But the survivability build is mostly still relevant in BG too.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> this guy has no clue what he's talking about as far as necro goes either.    your points are correct for BOTH summoner.</p></blockquote><p>Can you point out which part of the OP was incorrect and why? Because as it is you are just flaming.</p></blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> please fail moar.</p></blockquote><p>Are you capable of producing arguments too, or you think throwing random insults helps your case?</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> summoners need some type of PERSONA (non-pet specific) survivability abilities that is what the class needs to be balanced with other casters.</p> <p> necros need a break on the health PENALTIES in PvP settings.</p> <p> if you dont agree with those then you don't know what you're talking about and thus should not be posting "advice".</p></blockquote><p>Summoners are a pet class and need to be based on pet abilities. While it might be harder to work around that - it is the nature of the class. Yes, I see there are some classes that are easier than summoners, and there are some classes that have godlike abilities (berserker anyone?) - but most of them are getting the nerf bat soon anyway. As it stands now, it is impossible for any healer to kill a decently geared necro 1on1. In TSO a good healer had a chance - in fact there were some I couldn't kill even once, but now with Potency, Crit chance and Crit bonus affecting our heals they can't outdps our selfheals as it is. You are capable of killing any tank class and any mage class without any problems as a summoner. I don't have any problems with bards either. We do have survivability issues against 4 scout types, but that comes from the nature of their damage. We also have issues with drag and constant knockbacks, but so do all classes that depend on casting for their survivability and we have the added advantage of using the pet even while we are disabled. But completely balancing thins is impossible. If you tone down the scout damage they will do no damage to classes with higher mitigation and if you improve our defenses we will be unkillable by any other class. Our dps can't be improved much either, because spell damage is the same against all classes. So if you make us instant killers tanks will be unable to do their job - as anyone could see before the spell resist fix - because as soon as they taunt, they are dead. And from next expansion we are getting a slight DPS boost, while Shadowstep and the Berserker selfheal is getting nerfed. I feel that is enough for us. You can disagree, but if you continue using insults instead of arguments, I will ignore your posts.</p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 12:13 AM
<p> Dorsan, Koppar, <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Twelve (summoner isnt even your main and lvl 70 [Removed for Content])</span> on behalf of every summoner out there including ours on Naggy I would like to award you the [Removed for Content] of the year award - if you think summoners dont need help in pvp and or bg you three have been dropped on the head as kids. Dorsan, now i could be wrong but i thought i saw somewhere in this thread that you dont even play your necro anymore....question is why do you open your mouth and still post here trying to make things worse for the already struggling conjy/necros. I dont look at noob necros or conjys i look at my own which is most likely the best geared on the server - and yes i have alot of skill and dropping most people isnt a problem...but when it comes to fighting the VERY VERY VERY FEW of the beast scouts, brawlers/crusaders/zerks ( yes i do mean the very few that have the gear and know their class very well) you being a necro or a conjy would absolutely have no chance against a beast swashy/brigand/sk/ paladin*/ranger*/assassin. A beast assassin will tear your face off in less than 2 seconds, a beast swashy/brig will tear your face off in less than 3 to 4 seconds...the 15.5k hp, the 35+% mitg, 47% avoid, Stoneskin ring and all the best stuff you can find isnt gonna help you drop the best of the best. ( I dont normally post here but yeah i know every single aspect there is to know about the pvp aa, gear set up, pvp styles and how to get things done in general)</p><p> <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Tank pet will only buy you maybe 2 to 4 extra seconds if you're lucky...but looking at the temps and clickys most people are immune or dispell whatever you or your tank pet tosses at them to try and buy you time. But that being said tank pet isnt a good choice in my and many others' opinion...the dps loss wont win you the fight, might just delay you dropping like a sack of **** - no self respecting good necro would give up the mage pet heals for less dps and a fail tank pet.</span></strong>  I personally have alot of base and a really good amount of bonus ( Mage pet is almost capped on both base and casting naturally from the gear) Necro's do have a little bit easier time than conjys that is true - with enough base on yourself and the pet being capped or close to it the heals should keep you up against most beast rangers or pally's and some other classes if you understand how to play the class right in pvp... BUT WHAT PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU is that Summoners DO HAVE A HUGE DISADVANTAGE IN PVP compared to just about every other dps class out there.</p><p><strong>All people are asking for is a little bit of love and survivability, When i read the things you 3 have said it makes me think that you dont even play a summoner most of the time and stick around on a totally different class for open world pvp. Its sad to even think about the poor necro's that dont have the gear and have less skill perhaps trying to pvp...because they would definately get ripped apart by most mediocre players and the very few beast players would drop them before they even realize what hit them. I have amazing gear on my necro and i tear into most people without any trouble because i understand how to pvp properly on it - but when you put me up against a beast swash, brig, assassin just for example - that know how to play and have the gear to back that the dps difference and survivability difference is HUGE! About 75 to 90% of the time absolutely no chance against them if they know what theyre doing.</strong></p><p>Feel free to spill your garbage some more, but you three are wrong about most things you have said here in this thread. There are many things that are still wrong and broken with Summoners...you would have to be blind or stupid to not see the problems with the classes in pvp.</p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 12:30 AM
<p> One last thing i needed to say is that our dps needs to be raised a little bit..and yea i do mean a little bit - not too much. A mage like Summoner especially should not be doing less dps than most scouts (Im basing this on one v ones, one v twos <strong>NOT AOE GROUP vs GROUP brawls or raid vs raid brawls)</strong>...Well known fact which 100% of the people agree with is that when you stack up a necro/conjy with the best gear available against a scout with the best gear available and equal knowledge/ skill lvl for example - >>>>> Scouts have MORE hp, More Mitigation, Faster casting ca's (assassin for example casts in less than a quarter of a second per ca's -not to mention casting speed adorns which would make them faster- with almost NO COOLdown between chaining ca's) Roots, stuns, stifles, snares. >>>><strong>Everything im talking about here in my posts is for Tier 9.</strong></p><p>Any game of the eq2 type that you look at - <strong>SACRIFICING Mitg, Having Less Hp, Less avoid than a scout - being squishier than anything which is the clothy life for the most part should mean a little heavier dps. Realistically squishy mages, less hitpoints >>>its only natural to dish out heavier hits than a scout who destroys something in couple seconds. <em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">BUT NO right now its the other way around >> scouts get to have MORE HP, they get to have MORE MITG, they get to have faster casting controll effects and ca's/spells and they get to have Heavier hitting burst dmg and even overtime dmg since most fights against a beastmode scout or sk, zerk etc etc.. only last a few seconds normally. </span></em></strong></p><p>What are we sacrificing armor, hp, and survivability in general for? just to do less dps against a scout who would destroy you in seconds ( a good one)</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 12:41 AM
<p>Ok Remmyred I will ignore your insults for the first post and actually answer the things you wrote. 1) I stopped playing my necromancer when we were OP - because I didn't feel any joy by killing people in 1-2 sec - and then resumed after the spell resists were fixed. So yes I play a necro right now and so does Koppar. 2) I don't know where you got those health/mitigation values but those are way underestimated. Self buffed I have 16.5k - 18.5k health depending on the build I am in at the moment. And my physical mitigation is 40-45% also depending on the build. 3) The problem with your DPS estimates is that you are comparing melee damage against cloth armor and spell damage that is universal against all types of armor. If scout DPS on cloth armor would be reduced below our general DPS then they would become useless. If our DPS would be increased to match scout DPS on cloth armor then tanks and healers would become useless. And next GU we are getting a bit of DPS so where is the problem?</p><p>edit: You seem to have very high opinion about your necro, can you pls say who it is? It kinda blows not to know with who are you talking with.</p>

Zanther
05-20-2010, 12:49 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well do you play a necro?</p></blockquote><p>No,I play a conj. And majority of people saying that summoners are fine are Necro's. So maybe it's just conjurors.</p></blockquote><p>Most of us necros get 1 shotted by rangers before heals can get off. Its not just you.</p><p>Most of what I read is "do this and that and you'll be fine...."</p><p>Problem: Those other classes dont have to do "this and that" to get the same results</p><p>Again. When you require more effort into something to get remotely the same results (in this case, a dead target), then you have a problem.</p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 01:00 AM
<p>If you have 45% mitigation that means you must be wearing some oldschool t8 pvp jewlery and 16-18 k hp means you sacrificed spell mod adorns for PURE HP adorns across the board on most pieces. Wearing that oldschool jewlery and having those adorns means your pet is lacking a good bit of the buffs and you yourself must be wearing a piece of raid armor with Magi shield adorn (which i wear too btw). Ive seen your pets buffs compared to mine and many other summoners, you're missing a few really good ones that would help you drop most people in pvp - koppar on the other hand is missing <strong>A TON of pet buffs</strong> and should really get rid of the slack. Im sure that buys you a little bit of time but no matter how you choose to look at it a really good scout will tear your face off - and you know it ( but unfortunately i would say 80 to 90%+ of scouts on our Naggy server are terrible) The fact that you sacrifice so much base and some key pet buffs for that means your dps is a little weaker so dont make yourself look like a tough guy here trying to show off that epeeen >> <strong>Fight a good Europa scout or crusader for example ( If i remember right you're a q nowadays no? its been a while) </strong>Anyways you guys can post all the videos you want - why dont you show some of the parts you cut out of them where you get smashed because it happens to the best of any class sometimes..be it you werent paying attention or underestimating someone or just bad luck.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> Tier 8 was a whole different story bud, dont confuse it with tier 9 since its a whole different ball game. We were beasts in tier 8 and still really really good in tier 9 - but when it comes to tier 9 our survivability is TOTALLY different with everyones new aa's. new gear, and new tactics. Survivability goes way down when you look at tier 9 and no alot of the time the way our dps is it wont drop the best of the best...might get em close but wont kill them most of the time. And its good that they're raising our dps a little next patch but Survivability is still weak <--- and thats what needs to be looked at.</span></p><p>And Dorsan, i dont think im gods gift to eq2 - dont say things like "you have a high opinion of yourself" all i was trying to say is that i know and understand my class. And ill give you a little hint, Think Europa and take a wild guess. I have my good days and my bad days just like any other person that plays here on naggy pvping.</p>

Ralpmet
05-20-2010, 01:18 AM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you have 45% mitigation that means you must be wearing some oldschool t8 pvp jewlery and 16-18 k hp means you sacrificed spell mod adorns for PURE HP adorns across the board on most pieces. Wearing that oldschool jewlery and having those adorns means your pet is lacking a good bit of the buffs and you yourself must be wearing a piece of raid armor with Magi shield adorn (which i wear too btw). Ive seen your pets buffs compared to mine and many other summoners, you're missing a few really good ones that would help you drop most people in pvp - koppar on the other hand is missing <strong>A TON of pet buffs</strong> and should really get rid of the slack. Im sure that buys you a little bit of time but no matter how you choose to look at it a really good scout will tear your face off - and you know it ( but unfortunately i would say 80 to 90%+ of scouts on our Naggy server are terrible) The fact that you sacrifice so much base and some key pet buffs for that means your dps is a little weaker so dont make yourself look like a tough guy here trying to show off that epeeen >> <strong>Fight a good Europa scout or crusader for example ( If i remember right you're a q nowadays no? its been a while) </strong>Anyways you guys can post all the videos you want - why dont you show some of the parts you cut out of them where you get smashed because it happens to the best of any class sometimes..be it you werent paying attention or underestimating someone or just bad luck.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> Tier 8 was a whole different story bud, dont confuse it with tier 9 since its a whole different ball game. We were beasts in tier 8 and still really really good in tier 9 - but when it comes to tier 9 our survivability is TOTALLY different with everyones new aa's. new gear, and new tactics. Survivability goes way down when you look at tier 9 and no alot of the time the way our dps is it wont drop the best of the best...might get em close but wont kill them most of the time. And its good that they're raising our dps a little next patch but Survivability is still weak <--- and thats what needs to be looked at.</span></p><p>And Dorsan, i dont think im gods gift to eq2 - dont say things like "you have a high opinion of yourself" all i was trying to say is that i know and understand my class. And ill give you a little hint, Think Europa and take a wild guess. I have my good days and my bad days just like any other person that plays here on naggy pvping.</p></blockquote><p>Dude just stop posting. Seriously.</p><p> Koppar IS on a pvp server, he fights those "pvp server scouts" daily. You're telling a SUCCESSFUL SUMMONER that he's an idiot because he isn't geared like you are? Seriously?</p><p>Why don't you try this out, instead of ignoring yourself and buffing the crap out of your pet, why don't you do a bit of both? No no no, it's got to be an extreme right? One way or the other! Keep it simple as possible!</p><p>No one takes people seriously who post about how underpowered a class is then calls one of the top players of that class an idiot. That's just dumb, get out of here with that crap. He's posted top parses in bgs a ton. Look through his posts, sacrificed dps where? Kopp is literally the only necro that when I run into him in BG's I think "Oh wow this is going to be a challenge."  You have absolutely no idea at all what you're talking about and it's just downright shameful.</p>

Stuckx
05-20-2010, 01:21 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you have 45% mitigation that means you must be wearing some oldschool t8 pvp jewlery and 16-18 k hp means you sacrificed spell mod adorns for PURE HP adorns across the board on most pieces. Wearing that oldschool jewlery and having those adorns means your pet is lacking a good bit of the buffs and you yourself must be wearing a piece of raid armor with Magi shield adorn (which i wear too btw). Ive seen your pets buffs compared to mine and many other summoners, you're missing a few really good ones that would help you drop most people in pvp - koppar on the other hand is missing <strong>A TON of pet buffs</strong> and should really get rid of the slack. Im sure that buys you a little bit of time but no matter how you choose to look at it a really good scout will tear your face off - and you know it ( but unfortunately i would say 80 to 90%+ of scouts on our Naggy server are terrible) The fact that you sacrifice so much base and some key pet buffs for that means your dps is a little weaker so dont make yourself look like a tough guy here trying to show off that epeeen >> <strong>Fight a good Europa scout or crusader for example ( If i remember right you're a q nowadays no? its been a while) </strong>Anyways you guys can post all the videos you want - why dont you show some of the parts you cut out of them where you get smashed because it happens to the best of any class sometimes..be it you werent paying attention or underestimating someone or just bad luck.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> Tier 8 was a whole different story bud, dont confuse it with tier 9 since its a whole different ball game. We were beasts in tier 8 and still really really good in tier 9 - but when it comes to tier 9 our survivability is TOTALLY different with everyones new aa's. new gear, and new tactics. Survivability goes way down when you look at tier 9 and no alot of the time the way our dps is it wont drop the best of the best...might get em close but wont kill them most of the time. And its good that they're raising our dps a little next patch but Survivability is still weak <--- and thats what needs to be looked at.</span></p><p>And Dorsan, i dont think im gods gift to eq2 - dont say things like "you have a high opinion of yourself" all i was trying to say is that i know and understand my class. And ill give you a little hint, Think Europa and take a wild guess. I have my good days and my bad days just like any other person that plays here on naggy pvping.</p></blockquote><p>Dude just stop posting. Seriously.</p><p> Koppar IS on a pvp server, he fights those "pvp server scouts" daily. You're telling a SUCCESSFUL SUMMONER that he's an idiot because he isn't geared like you are? Seriously?</p><p>Why don't you try this out, instead of ignoring yourself and buffing the crap out of your pet, why don't you do a bit of both? No no no, it's got to be an extreme right? One way or the other! Keep it simple as possible!</p><p>No one takes people seriously who post about how underpowered a class is then calls one of the top players of that class an idiot. That's just dumb, get out of here with that crap.</p></blockquote><p>It's easy to call him an idiot when he's arguing that summoners are okay.</p><p>Conjuror DPS and survivability are poor. FACT.</p><p>Anyone who would bring a conjuror over a scout for DPS is a [Removed for Content]. Fact.</p><p>Anyone who would bring a conjuror with a tank pet for extra taunts over a second tank is a [Removed for Content]. Fact.</p><p>Anyone who would bring a conjuror over a bard/enchanter for utility is a [Removed for Content]. Fact.</p><p>Conjurors in their current state are useless in PVP when compared to other DPS classes or other utility classes(though conjurors are in NO WAY a utility class).</p><p>If you lost to a conjuror as a brawler,you are absolutely terrible. FACT.</p><p>Can't really argue with that. Summoners are terrible at everything they are designed to do at this point. They are broken. When a class cannot perform it's primary function to the fullest extent,and all the other classes are doing it a hundred times better...that class is broken.</p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 01:29 AM
<p>*Nod* to Stuckx.</p><p>As for Ralpmet you need to read carefully what i wrote down since you missed alot of what i said and what point i was trying to get across here.</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 01:56 AM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you have 45% mitigation that means you must be wearing some oldschool t8 pvp jewlery and 16-18 k hp means you sacrificed spell mod adorns for PURE HP adorns across the board on most pieces. Wearing that oldschool jewlery and having those adorns means your pet is lacking a good bit of the buffs and you yourself must be wearing a piece of raid armor with Magi shield adorn (which i wear too btw).</p></blockquote><p>That is quite correct analysis of my gear.</p><p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ive seen your pets buffs compared to mine and many other summoners, you're missing a few really good ones that would help you drop most people in pvp - koppar on the other hand is missing <strong>A TON of pet buffs</strong> and should really get rid of the slack. Im sure that buys you a little bit of time but no matter how you choose to look at it a really good scout will tear your face off - and you know it ( but unfortunately i would say 80 to 90%+ of scouts on our Naggy server are terrible)</p></blockquote><p>Well, at least you have the knowledge to see that I am actually doing what I am preaching. Because some others have suggested that I write one thing and do another. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Thing is, you have your opinion on how to build your necro, I have my opinion. If you want, you can make a thread with detailed description of build for offensive necro, or post a guide in this thread, I am sure many would find it useful. I have posted the defensive build for those that like to survive longer.</p><p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>The fact that you sacrifice so much base and some key pet buffs for that means your dps is a little weaker so dont make yourself look like a tough guy here trying to show off that epeeen >> <strong>Fight a good Europa scout or crusader for example ( If i remember right you're a q nowadays no? its been a while) </strong></p></blockquote> <p>Actually the last 1on1 death I had was to an europa Bruiser. CC immunity + drag = dead necro. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But the point is, I expect to die to a good scout, or to kill him with maximum effort and luck on my part because in my opinion scouts should be mage killers (hint cloth armor and melee DPS class). But I'd like to fight good Europa crusaders for sure. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And I don't know how you don't realise but saying that the class you play is underpowered actually shows much more [Removed for Content] and ego then saying it is ok. In my eyes that just means that you blame all your deaths to class imbalance instead of your own gear/playstyle/etc. Assuming that I or Koppar are not dieing frequently is just wrong. The only difference is that I am not looking for things to blame for my deaths, I simply blame myself.</p><p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>Anyways you guys can post all the videos you want - why dont you show some of the parts you cut out of them where you get smashed because it happens to the best of any class sometimes..be it you werent paying attention or underestimating someone or just bad luck.</p></blockquote><p>Well sure, I can make a video of me falling over, if you look at my sig you'll see that I have much experience in that - over 2k PvP deaths. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Tier 8 was a whole different story bud, dont confuse it with tier 9 since its a whole different ball game. We were beasts in tier 8 and still really really good in tier 9 - but when it comes to tier 9 our survivability is TOTALLY different with everyones new aa's. new gear, and new tactics. Survivability goes way down when you look at tier 9 and no alot of the time the way our dps is it wont drop the best of the best...might get em close but wont kill them most of the time. And its good that they're raising our dps a little next patch but Survivability is still weak <--- and thats what needs to be looked at.</span></p></blockquote><p>For me T9 is much easier compared to T8. Yes, I die to good scouts, but I did the same in T8. If you were able to kill pudaan, brokensword, etc in T8 then props to you, but I wasn't able to do it then and I am unable to do it now. But if you look at the situation realistically, you see that our selfheals got drastically improved and that alone improved our survivability a lot compared to T8.</p><p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p> <blockquote><p>And Dorsan, i dont think im gods gift to eq2 - dont say things like "you have a high opinion of yourself" all i was trying to say is that i know and understand my class. And ill give you a little hint, Think Europa and take a wild guess. I have my good days and my bad days just like any other person that plays here on naggy pvping.</p></blockquote> <p>I wrote "you seem to have high opinion about your necro", not of yourself, there is a big difference. Hmm.. Are you Palae? If so, then I don't understand you. You wrote that no selfrespecting necro would use tank pet, and I remember you killling me in February using tank pet (when I was harvesting those whatevers in the pond in sf for the myth clickie) and I had mage pet and full DPS spec at that time. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 02:24 AM
<p> Thats fine, we both have our own opinions bud. I can respect that but the thing is everyone has their own playstyle, and the facts are - its still early enough into the expansion...so clearely many things are still broken or not working the way theyre meant to, so how can anyone say that things are BALANCED at all...is an assassin porting down and ripping peoples face off in 1 second balanced, ive seen it happen many times because i play with one in bg's or pvp all the time? is the zerker heal balanced? (even tho i personally dont have a problem with it). I dont flat out blame my few one v one deaths on imbalances in this game, because i know exactly who on the server has a good chance at dropping me most of the time and who wouldnt. We both know who the good players on both sides are -even tho most people dont even open world pvp nowadays because of these so called "imbalances in classes" and "broken aa abilities" so on and so on. Thats something noone can deny.</p><p>If you've ever happen to come across me with a tank pet, its probably since im on my way to farm an easy zone like Vasty1 or Library. ( Full tank aa's / whatever else is needed of course) I dont pvp with it, ever. What the people are trying to tell you is that not every necro or conjy has an easy time...i really feel sorry and horrible for my friends that love the class but are getting depressed over the situation its in right now, they arent able to get the gear some of us can get from raids to help them out abit. So all insults aside or anything that has something to do with epeenn or ego - it isnt the case.... Most of the CONJY / NECRO population are struggling really badly, and sony is always trying to cater to the regular players.</p><p>Its hard to help all the people that i like and play with....who have the same class you and i both play -> when people like you, koppar and twelve try to make them sound like the new OP class.</p>

Davngr1
05-20-2010, 02:25 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the amount of ego you have sir is blinding (mostly your self).</p></blockquote><p>How about you stop insulting people?</p><p><span style="color: #33cccc;">that was not an insult that was an observation sir.</span></p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> summoners the new crusader?   when resist where broken i was one shoting summoners (specially necros) on my wiz and assassin.  </p></blockquote><p>You were also one shoting crusagers on your wiz and assassin. And necros were able to stun anyone and kill them before the 5 second stun was over. It was enough to send pet to attack, cast 1 Bloodcoil and 1 Bewilderment for people to be dead. And with Elemental Toxicity you could cast Pandemic, Bloodcloud and the AE spell from Siphoning of the Souls and whole groups just died.</p><p><span style="color: #33cccc;">  i'm speachless.. your redundant logic is beyone words.</span></p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  1. you're clueless to the ACTUAL needs of summoners in BG's.</p></blockquote><p>You sir are in wrong forum. This is PvP section and -not- BG section.</p><span style="color: #33cccc;">i was posting in the bg section about "survivability" when this thread "magically" appears, coincidence? </span> <p><span style="color: #33cccc;">  did you think making this thread would finally get me to L2P and i would agree with the nonsensical blah, blah, blah you post? </span></p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">matter of fact this thread is borderline trolling.</span><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>  2. 3/5 of your post is about GENERAL survivability for ANY class yet you post it to summoners?</blockquote><p>I listed everything I could remember to help with survivability to help people who have problems. While you for some reason see this as a personal insult to yourself - which is clear from your inappropriate behaviour - this post was intended to help people.</p><p> <span style="color: #33cccc;"> so you admit it has NOTHING to do with the summoner class?  i guess we do agree on something after all  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></span></p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  3. you offer BAD advice for BG since a defensive build using a tank pet is almost useless and before you try to argue that:</p>  you're own egotistical video proves you, YOURSELF don't use a tank pet or the defensive build you OFFER others since that build is USELESS when using a MAGE pet.</blockquote><p>You are not only in the wrong section, you also ignore what people write to you. The video was posted in the BG section and this is in PvP section. In BG section I wrote that people should read this because it has -some- information relevant to BGs and I was hoping that people will be smart enough to see where BG and PvP are different and what to adjust. You are not only using arguments that have nothing to do with the topic, you also keep ignoring the answers you get and then repeat your original argument. Here is my original answer to your original post which you ignored and wrote a new set of insults instead.</p><p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">what is ther to ignore? every pvp video i have seen involves a mage pet and when a summoner uses a mage pet the survivability AA don't work!</span></p><p>   <span style="color: #33cccc;">but here you are arguing in favor of them?  yet you don't use them.</span></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> granted in a real PvP server a tank pet might grant you a small advantage but in BG were all players are ready and alert to attack the tank does nothing more then provide a quick annoyence before the summoner get's ripped apart.</blockquote><p>Hence this is in PvP forum not in Battlegrounds forum. <span style="color: #ff0000;">But the survivability build is mostly still relevant in BG too.</span></p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> this guy has no clue what he's talking about as far as necro goes either.    your points are correct for BOTH summoner.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Can you point out which part of the OP was incorrect and why? Because as it is you are just flaming.</span></p></blockquote><p>  <span style="color: #ff0000;"> wrong</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">wrong? no.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">    all you did was describe simple AA's almost directly from the tooltip, hard to be wrong.    effective?  not anymore effective for a conj then it is for a necro.   a tank spec for bg's is a waste you probly won't kill anyone except other low survivability summoners.</span></p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> please fail moar.</p></blockquote><p>Are you capable of producing arguments too, or you think throwing random insults helps your case?</p><p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">i have made true arguments about the reasons that summoners need better non-pet dependent survivability AA's yet i have received in return have been egotistical postings of videos and parses like that says ANYTHING about survivability OR class balance.  </span></p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">  you don't know the other classes as well as i do and i'm not trying to break your "one trick pony" if anything i want to help the situation for all summoners. </span><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> summoners need some type of PERSONA (non-pet specific) survivability abilities that is what the class needs to be balanced with other casters.</p> <p> necros need a break on the health PENALTIES in PvP settings.</p> <p> if you dont agree with those then you don't know what you're talking about and thus should not be posting "advice".</p></blockquote><p>Summoners are a pet class and need to be based on pet abilities. While it might be harder to work around that - it is the nature of the class. Yes, I see there are some classes that are easier than summoners, and there are some classes that have godlike abilities (berserker anyone?) - but most of them are getting the nerf bat soon anyway. As it stands now, it is impossible for any healer to kill a decently geared necro 1on1. In TSO a good healer had a chance - in fact there were some I couldn't kill even once, but now with Potency, Crit chance and Crit bonus affecting our heals they can't outdps our selfheals as it is. You are capable of killing any tank class and any mage class without any problems as a summoner. I don't have any problems with bards either. We do have survivability issues against 4 scout types, but that comes from the nature of their damage. We also have issues with drag and constant knockbacks, but so do all classes that depend on casting for their survivability and we have the added advantage of using the pet even while we are disabled. But completely balancing thins is impossible. If you tone down the scout damage they will do no damage to classes with higher mitigation and if you improve our defenses we will be unkillable by any other class. Our dps can't be improved much either, because spell damage is the same against all classes. So if you make us instant killers tanks will be unable to do their job - as anyone could see before the spell resist fix - because as soon as they taunt, they are dead. And from next expansion we are getting a slight DPS boost, while Shadowstep and the Berserker selfheal is getting nerfed. I feel that is enough for us. You can disagree, but if you continue using insults instead of arguments, I will ignore your posts.</p><p> <span style="color: #33cccc;"> i don't quite understand what makes you write the things you do but i can assure you that once someone gets to the summoner they are left at the mercy of their gear after that goes he is dead.  </span></p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">  your necro might be able to close that gap with under geared/skilled players but if all things are equal even you will die and i'm sure you do.  frankly this charade of "i'm god" does nothing for the class why even do it?</span></blockquote>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 02:50 AM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Thats fine, we both have our own opinions bud. I can respect that but the thing is everyone has their own playstyle, and the facts are - its still early enough into the expansion...so clearely many things are still broken or not working the way theyre meant to, so how can anyone say that things are BALANCED at all...is an assassin porting down and ripping peoples face off in 1 second balanced, ive seen it happen many times because i play with one in bg's or pvp all the time? is the zerker heal balanced?</p></blockquote><p>No, these things are not balanced. However it was already announced that shadowstep and zerker heal are getting nerfed with next GU and that all mages are getting increased DPS. So with that knowledge, I don't see any reason to ask for more at this time.</p><p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its hard to help all the people that i like and play with....who have the same class you and i both play -> when people like you, koppar and twelve try to make them look like the new OP class.</p></blockquote><p>Nah, none of us say it is OP class. We just happen to think that it is OK for the current circumstances. It was OP during the time that spell damage was out of whack, but back then all casters were OP, and that is something no one can deny either. The question I am asking you is... After we get the +damage with the next GU, and assassins and zerkers get their nerf, do you still think summoners need additional boost?</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 03:03 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">what is ther to ignore? every pvp video i have seen involves a mage pet and when a summoner uses a mage pet the survivability AA don't work!</span></p><p>   <span style="color: #33cccc;">but here you are arguing in favor of them?  yet you don't use them.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Yes, because all those PvP videos are from T8 when we were forced to use Myth pet for everything. And you say the survivability AA don't work with mage pet? Is it so?</p><p>Let's see the AA build from my original post:</p><p><span ><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Defensive AA build</strong></span></p><p>The next step is to look at the shared old summoner tree and see what we have for defense there:</p><p>Parrying Rank 10 - 10% uncontested parry<span style="color: #00ff00;"><strong> WORKS WITH MAGE PET</strong></span>Cabalists Cover 10 - 65% chance for pet avoidance <span style="color: #ff9900;"><strong>WORKS BUT WEAKER WITH MAGE PET</strong></span>Shockwave - instant cast AE knockback and 1.2 sec stun <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">DOESNT WORK WITH MAGE PET</span></strong>Perceptors Command 10 - single target instant cast taunt lock for 2 sec to pet (<em>on short recast!!!</em>) <span style="color: #00ff00;"><strong><span >WORKS WITH MAGE PET</span></strong></span>Animist's Transference - heal/selfheal using pets health <strong><span style="color: #00ff00;"><span >WORKS WITH MAGE PET</span></span></strong>Minion's Warding 10 - 20% chance to prevent 90% of incoming spell damage <span style="color: #00ff00;"><strong><span >WORKS WITH MAGE PET</span></strong></span></p><p>So basically... I had this weird idea that people will be able to take the basic info from what I wrote and adjust it for their own playstyle. But that doesn't seem to be the case.</p><p>As for the videos and screenshots. We started with arguments and then people said that there are no relevant videos/screenshots. So we made relevant videos/screenshots. Then you said we are egoists. Thank you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></span></p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 03:25 AM
<p> Dorsan, you're only answering to a small part of what im trying to say.....What people are having problem with for the most part is the ---> SURVIVABILITY of necro/conjy ( Which is a big fail for the most part ) . Sure shadow step is gonna get fixed, sure the zerker heal will too...doesnt change the fact that Sony completelely failed on bringing in good summoner items to the game for some slots, butchered the scout pet and the devs admitted to it >>>>>> <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Giving summoners a somewhat reasonable survivability and a small raise in pvp dps is what people are looking to get fixed and thats the bare minimum</span>. There are many other problems which i wont bring into this thread. (swarm pets or accelerated decay lifedrain for example)</p>

Davngr1
05-20-2010, 03:27 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">what is ther to ignore? every pvp video i have seen involves a mage pet and when a summoner uses a mage pet the survivability AA don't work!</span></p><p>   <span style="color: #33cccc;">but here you are arguing in favor of them?  yet you don't use them.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Yes, because all those PvP videos are from T8 when we were forced to use Myth pet for everything. And you say the survivability AA don't work with mage pet? Is it so?</p><p>Let's see the AA build from my original post:</p><p><span><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Defensive AA build</strong></span></p><p>The next step is to look at the shared old summoner tree and see what we have for defense there:</p><p>Parrying Rank 10 - 10% uncontested parry<span style="color: #00ff00;"><strong> WORKS WITH MAGE PET</strong></span>Cabalists Cover 10 - 65% chance for pet avoidance <span style="color: #ff9900;"><strong>WORKS BUT WEAKER WITH MAGE PET</strong></span>Shockwave - instant cast AE knockback and 1.2 sec stun <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">DOESNT WORK WITH MAGE PET</span></strong>Perceptors Command 10 - single target instant cast taunt lock for 2 sec to pet (<em>on short recast!!!</em>) <span style="color: #00ff00;"><strong><span>WORKS WITH MAGE PET</span></strong></span>Animist's Transference - heal/selfheal using pets health <strong><span style="color: #00ff00;"><span>WORKS WITH MAGE PET</span></span></strong>Minion's Warding 10 - 20% chance to prevent 90% of incoming spell damage <span style="color: #00ff00;"><strong><span>WORKS WITH MAGE PET</span></strong></span></p><p>So basically... I had this weird idea that people will be able to take the basic info from what I wrote and adjust it for their own playstyle. But that doesn't seem to be the case.</p><p>As for the videos and screenshots. We started with arguments and then people said that there are no relevant videos/screenshots. So we made relevant videos/screenshots. Then you said we are egoists. Thank you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></span></p></blockquote><p> no one asked for videos that was in your head sir.</p><p>  yes!  the only part of your "defensive fail" build that actually work (thougt not great) are part of the "offesive" build thta EVERYONE uses including your self!</p><p>btw cobalist cover could be 100% for all i care since the mage pet has <span style="color: #ff0000;">red</span> avoidance.  go send your pet against a heroic name mob and see how many attacks it avoids.. lol</p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 03:32 AM
<p>A big *Nod* to that <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9293feeb0183c67ea1ea8c52f0dbaf8c.gif" border="0" /></p><p>That is the truth right there, Cabalist cover and mage pet go together like oil and water...its a waste of aa if you use it with a mage pet. So id have to agree with what he just said...wouldnt ever dream of using that in pvp that way.</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 03:43 AM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Dorsan, you're only answering to a small part of what im trying to say.....What people are having problem with for the most part is the ---> SURVIVABILITY of necro/conjy ( Which is a big fail for the most part ) . Sure shadow step is gonna get fixed, sure the zerker heal will too...doesnt change the fact that Sony completelely failed on bringing in good summoner items to the game for some slots, butchered the scout pet and the devs admitted to it >>>>>> <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Giving summoners a somewhat reasonable survivability and a small raise in pvp dps is what people are looking to get fixed and thats the bare minimum</span>. There are many other problems which i wont bring into this thread. (swarm pets or accelerated decay lifedrain for example)</p></blockquote><p>Well, if you go to necromancer section you will see me complaining about swarm pets, health drain for accelerated decay as well as UT and Accelerated Decay not stacking. I even begged every nerco I know to /bug these things because in my eyes they are bugs. But those are general bugs, not PvP related. We also have pet pathing bugs, etc. However these things are related to general gameplay, not just PvP.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-20-2010, 03:51 AM
<p>You only argue that you get killed in 2 secs of, and that is only from the Very very few good ones.</p><p>Assassins</p><p>Rangers</p><p>Brigs</p><p>Swash</p><p>Sk</p><p>But what about, even if they are good?</p><p>Zerker</p><p>Guard</p><p>Inqy</p><p>Templar</p><p>Warden</p><p>Fury</p><p>Pally</p><p>Dirge</p><p>Trouba</p><p>Wizz</p><p>Warlock</p><p>Illu</p><p>Coercer</p><p>Defiler</p><p>Mystic</p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 05:59 AM
<p>Koppar</p><p>Guess</p><p>What?</p><p>I</p><p>Can</p><p>Make</p><p>A list seem alot longer than it actually is by putting spaces inbetween lines. Dont twist my words - i used those at the top of your list just as an example ( those ones are the ones that would drop a Conjy/Necro the fastest in my opinion ) These are the facts people are giving you.....<span style="text-decoration: underline;">The 99% of Summoners</span><em><strong> not including Stubborn ones that think theyre the sh*t ((- > That would be you my friend)) agree there is a problem in tier 9.  </strong><span style="font-size: small;">None of those 99% are talking about you, or me, or Dorsan....talk to some of the people you play with who love playing their Necro or Conjy in pvp...see how well THEY do instead of being stubborn and thinking only about <strong>Yourself..  </strong>Alot of my old friends and old guildies love the Summoner class, but want to go hit their head against the wall when it comes to pvp ( of course their gear isnt as good as your's or mine, or dorsans ) Tier 9 isnt so forgiving to those who are trying to make the best of it, so instead of trying to [Removed for Content] down the survivability why not do something good ----> Help sony fix the Many many things wrong with Summoners</span></em></p><p>Btw there is another side to Summoners in case you didnt notice which is Conjy's - who dont have heals. I can name so many clicky's or pieces of gear that proc immunity to stun, fear etc etc ( Pvp charm clicky is just one example...not to mention things like close mind, death march etc etc... ) Dont forget the unlucky resists to controll effects /snare time to time.</p><p>Just because You, Me, or Dorsan do really well in pvp and make the best of it...doesnt mean anything because guess what...WE ARENT THE MAJORITY OF SUMMONERS >>>>which does happen to include conjys. I dont even know what to say to you two anymore, at least Dorsan seems like a decent guy and explains what his point is instead of Saying IM THE BEST --> COME SEE MY VIDEOS! and if you're lucky i might even show you my epeenn.</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 09:39 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> yes!  the only part of your "defensive fail" build that actually work (thougt not great) are part of the "offesive" build thta EVERYONE uses including your self!<p>btw cobalist cover could be 100% for all i care since the mage pet has <span style="color: #ff0000;">red</span> avoidance.  go send your pet against a heroic name mob and see how many attacks it avoids.. lol</p></blockquote><p>I couldn't answer to this at the time because I wasn't home so I couldn't start eq2, but now I did and made a screenshot for mage pet avoidance in both offensive and defensive stances. Here is the difference:</p><p><img src="http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1919/magepetavoidance.jpg" /></p><p>I have parsed days of fights before with and without Cabalyst's Cover and I was able to see noticable difference.</p><p>I have parsed the mage pet DPS in offensive and defensive stance also, and there wasn't any noticable differrence.</p><p>I really would like to find a place where all of us would be happy.. To meet halfway so to speak. But if you guys insist on insulting everyone who disagrees with you, it will be extremely hard to build a dialogue.</p><p>edit: I did take the time and went to Scion of Ice scaled to 90 and then tanked the first 8 mobs with the mage pet (4 ^^ and 4 ^^^, yellow conned) it seems against yellow conned the avoidance of the mage pet is around 30%.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-20-2010, 11:13 AM
<p>Hmm why are there only alot of insults from one side of the argue?</p>

Badmotorfinger
05-20-2010, 01:04 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hmm why are there only alot of insults from one side of the argue?</p></blockquote><p>The only reason you're attempting to argue against disparity with summoners and other classes; is so you can [Removed for Content] your epeen....  People like that tend to get insulted because you're basically insulting everyone else by your claims of being a badass when we're trying to describe our concerns.  None of us are claiming we cant win fights.  We just want a level playing field.</p><p>Some people play this class because of this sole purpose.  If they can make up for certain deficiencies in a class, then they must be even bigger of a badass. </p><p>The attempt is pretty obvious, TBH.</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 01:24 PM
In this thread and in the one at the battlegrounds I have presented certain claims and then also presented evidence to back it up. I tried to be constructive and help anyone who does need help, tried to see if the opposite side has a point, did additional tests, parsed things, actually looked into the issues at hand. You however in 5 pages here and 10 pages in the other thread did whine a lot and insult us a lot. You did not present a single suggestion on what should be exactly done. You didn't even agree between eachother if you want more DPS or better survivability. Some of you are actually going in BGs in Treasured gear and complaining that you have low survivability, others are in MC gear (OP of the BG thread) and complaining about the lack of DPS. But you did use the word "epeen" a lot, so I guess you win by default. Congratulations.

Badmotorfinger
05-20-2010, 01:40 PM
<p>I've posted in this thread twice... and maybe once in the other.  I was just relaying how your suggestions translates to a Conjuror.  My last post wasn't even referencing you... so I don't know why you care, why are you positioning yourself to "take a side"?  I've had no issue with the attitude in your arguments.  I mean, you're just being helpful and also understand there is a deficiancy.  I'm just saying those tips don't close the gap.  To me, you just don't want any fixes that will make us OP, and I have no issue there.</p><p>I've posted in the Conjuror forum with some of the things people need to do to help themsleves from a conjuror perspective....  That doesn't mean I post a T8 PVP video saying how badass I am.  That was my point in the last post.  He hasn't claimed that Conjurors are where they should be in terms of survivability...  He just goes on and on to pat himself on the back by saying "I can do it" and wonder's why he gets insulted.  Also remember, there is a slight difference between Conj and Necro.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-20-2010, 01:54 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've posted in this thread twice... and maybe once in the other.  I was just relaying how your suggestions translates to a Conjuror.  My last post wasn't even referencing you... so I don't know why you care, why are you positioning yourself to "take a side"?  I've had no issue with the attitude in your arguments.  I mean, you're just being helpful and also understand there is a deficiancy.  I'm just saying those tips don't close the gap.  To me, you just don't want any fixes that will make us OP, and I have no issue there.</p><p>I've posted in the Conjuror forum with some of the things people need to do to help themsleves from a conjuror perspective....  That doesn't mean I post a T8 PVP video saying how badass I am.  That was my point in the last post.  He hasn't claimed that Conjurors are where they should be in terms of survivability...  He just goes on and on to pat himself on the back by saying "I can do it" and wonder's why he gets insulted.  Also remember, there is a slight difference between Conj and Necro.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm fist of all <strong><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">I never </span></em></strong>posted any video, was someone else that posted it. Second of all I never said anything about Conjurers I just said that I´m fine with mine class as it is atm. And I never said anything at all about me. Yes I posted screens from BGs. To show that we can do dps.</p><p>Thb I have not seen anything from anyone else you only claim that we suck. Dorsan have posted tons of stuff about the class and everyone else just say you know what you are a [Removed for Content], epeen, idiot, that dont think necos/summoners suck, and you are a stupid cause you try to prove that necromancers are playeble.</p>

Badmotorfinger
05-20-2010, 02:12 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've posted in this thread twice... and maybe once in the other.  I was just relaying how your suggestions translates to a Conjuror.  My last post wasn't even referencing you... so I don't know why you care, why are you positioning yourself to "take a side"?  I've had no issue with the attitude in your arguments.  I mean, you're just being helpful and also understand there is a deficiancy.  I'm just saying those tips don't close the gap.  To me, you just don't want any fixes that will make us OP, and I have no issue there.</p><p>I've posted in the Conjuror forum with some of the things people need to do to help themsleves from a conjuror perspective....  That doesn't mean I post a T8 PVP video saying how badass I am.  That was my point in the last post.  He hasn't claimed that Conjurors are where they should be in terms of survivability...  He just goes on and on to pat himself on the back by saying "I can do it" and wonder's why he gets insulted.  Also remember, there is a slight difference between Conj and Necro.</p></blockquote><p>Hmm fist of all <strong><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">I never </span></em></strong>posted any video, was someone else that posted it. Second of all I never said anything about Conjurers I just said that I´m fine with mine class as it is atm. And I never said anything at all about me. Yes I posted screens from BGs. To show that we can do dps.</p><p>Thb I have not seen anything from anyone else you only claim that we suck. Dorsan have posted tons of stuff about the class and everyone else just say you know what you are a [Removed for Content], epeen, idiot, that dont think necos/summoners suck, and you are a stupid cause you try to prove that necromancers are playeble.</p></blockquote><p>I never said necro/summoner's weren't playable.  You keep referring to me like I've been some staunch advocate that summoner's suck.  I'm not, I didn't even post in the BG thread because of how out of hand people get (from both sides).  All I'm saying is there's an obvious deficancy.   And there is.  Almost everyone agrees with that. I can make those deficancies up just fine in a good group.  Outside of that, there's minimal things I can do, but the only thing that covers the disadvantage completely; is the play of your opponent.  If all you're arguing about is DPS, I have no problem with it. </p><p>I'm just saying there's an issue and I get annoyed when people try to cover it up, in what seems to me as an advertisment.  Maybe you didn't post that video as an arguement...  Maybe you aren't claiming to be super uber...  I'm just relaying how you came off in some of your posts.  I want to know what the conjuror has going for them.   Not how to overcome the disadvantage.  It's not burst dps(yes we have dps, but it's not in the top tier or burst.. but isn't a huge personal issue for me, anyway).. it's not survivability...  it's not healing...  it's not buffs</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-20-2010, 02:25 PM
<p>I was refering to the whole thread. And yes this thread is pointless now.</p><p>Sure buff summerners a bit, but if I know SOE they will just make us lulz op or do nothing at all. And in that case I prefer nothing at all. And if they boost ouer class to OP I´ll just change class to a defiler or trouba/dirge lol.</p><p>GLH</p>

Badmotorfinger
05-20-2010, 02:32 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was refering to the whole thread. And yes this thread is pointless now.</p><p>Sure buff summerners a bit, but if I know SOE they will just make us lulz op or do nothing at all. And in that case I prefer nothing at all. And if they boost ouer class to OP I´ll just change class to a defiler or trouba/dirge lol.</p><p>GLH</p></blockquote><p>well, I can't say your fear of that is unfounded in anyway... </p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 03:04 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sure buff summerners a bit, but if I know SOE they will just make us lulz op or do nothing at all. And in that case I prefer nothing at all.</p></blockquote><p>This pretty much sums up my concerns as well.</p>

baldwinboy3
05-20-2010, 03:26 PM
<p>OK OK OK,</p><p>I made a lvl 43 Necro on Nagafen Server and trying to twink/tweak him out to be the best Necro he can be lol!</p><p>I have like 8 peices of gear on that gives the necro 4-7% chance to Slip, Baffle, Stifle, Fear the oponet! I am trying to find ways that will keep PvP from killing him so fast with proc gear. I will need a Good AA build for staying alive and one for dps when in grps.</p><p>I did some test with the tank pet with just a few points in the Taunt line and the knock back. with that gear i talked about above i never had to use any cc because i never got aggro. DO you think that gear will work in pvp at all? I have like 50% change if all those are added to proc something that keeps players off me.</p><p>The rest of my gear is just MC, I will get heal adorn procs as well (if i can find and afford them) and the HP adorns to try and be more survivable.</p><p>What do you guys suggest? Good and bad please. Only thing not a option is reroll! FYI the necro is 85-90% mastered and has no pvp gear but working on that atm.</p>

Notsovilepriest
05-20-2010, 03:31 PM
<p><cite>baldwinboy3 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OK OK OK,</p><p>I made a lvl 43 Necro on Nagafen Server and trying to twink/tweak him out to be the best Necro he can be lol!</p><p>I have like 8 peices of gear on that gives the necro 4-7% chance to Slip, Baffle, Stifle, Fear the oponet! I am trying to find ways that will keep PvP from killing him so fast with proc gear. I will need a Good AA build for staying alive and one for dps when in grps.</p><p>I did some test with the tank pet with just a few points in the Taunt line and the knock back. with that gear i talked about above i never had to use any cc because i never got aggro. DO you think that gear will work in pvp at all? I have like 50% change if all those are added to proc something that keeps players off me.</p><p>The rest of my gear is just MC, I will get heal adorn procs as well (if i can find and afford them) and the HP adorns to try and be more survivable.</p><p>What do you guys suggest? Good and bad please. Only thing not a option is reroll! FYI the necro is 85-90% mastered and has no pvp gear but working on that atm.</p></blockquote><p>Slip and Baffle(The detaunt right?) Dont' work in PvP</p>

baldwinboy3
05-20-2010, 03:37 PM
<p>Hmm well then i have a really good farming toon. I will have to get all the fear proc stuff then.</p>

Davngr1
05-20-2010, 03:51 PM
<p>both of you aren't any better at playing this game then anyone else posting here.   THIS game is EASY it's not rocket science.</p> <p> neither of you two know ANYTHING that any other summoner posting here does, so your post about elementary AA and general longevity is almost insulting since you posted it to "teach" other players with REAL concerns about the class how to play?</p> <p>  you're not special every fully fabled raid outfitted summoner is going to blow up  a pick up raid/group if you get a good healer that STANDS RIGHT BY YOU and HEALS YOU.  </p> <p> the only problem is that once you encounter an equally GEARED player you die just like any other class with [Removed for Content] POOR SURVIVABILITY.</p> <p> you're both a joke because you don't know anything mechanical about the workings of this game, all you do is "press buttons good"  great!  i'm happy for you but please if you don't understand how this game works and class balance please stop posting your non-sense.</p> <p>  also why don't you send your pet against a NAME mob not some trash mobs since AT LEAST a name mob will have a buff package slightly closer to what an actual player would have!    of course i don't expect you to know that since you're clearly you're clueless.</p><p>PS.</p> <p> you two remind me of the "down syndrome" Xill who thought he was some "summoner god" and the only thing he achieved was to get summoner gear nerfed in other words his pompous post made the class WORSE.   clearly what you two are after i'm guessing?</p>

Davngr1
05-20-2010, 04:01 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was refering to the whole thread. And yes this thread is pointless now.</p><p>Sure buff summerners a bit, but if I know SOE they will just make us lulz op or do nothing at all. And in that case I prefer nothing at all. And if they boost ouer class to OP I´ll just change class to a defiler or trouba/dirge lol.</p><p>GLH</p></blockquote><p>this thread was always pointless. </p><p> it's a borderline troll thread full of "common" information created with the intention to insult players intelligence.</p><p> it's quite funny to see you both "cry victim"  when people insult you back when in fact the trolls here are you two.</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 04:03 PM
That's it, I am ignoring all your post from now on. Go insult someone else. Bye.

Notsovilepriest
05-20-2010, 04:25 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>both of you aren't any better at playing this game then anyone else posting here.   THIS game is EASY it's not rocket science.</p> <p> neither of you two know ANYTHING that any other summoner posting here does, so your post about elementary AA and general longevity is almost insulting since you posted it to "teach" other players with REAL concerns about the class how to play?</p> <p>  you're not special every fully fabled raid outfitted summoner is going to blow up  a pick up raid/group if you get a good healer that STANDS RIGHT BY YOU and HEALS YOU.  </p> <p> the only problem is that once you encounter an equally GEARED player you die just like any other class with [Removed for Content] POOR SURVIVABILITY.</p> <p> you're both a joke because you don't know anything mechanical about the workings of this game, all you do is "press buttons good"  great!  i'm happy for you but please if you don't understand how this game works and class balance please stop posting your non-sense.</p> <p>  also why don't you send your pet against a NAME mob not some trash mobs since AT LEAST a name mob will have a buff package slightly closer to what an actual player would have!    of course i don't expect you to know that since you're clearly you're clueless.</p><p>PS.</p> <p> you two remind me of the "down syndrome" Xill who thought he was some "summoner god" and the only thing he achieved was to get summoner gear nerfed in other words his pompous post made the class WORSE.   clearly what you two are after i'm guessing?</p></blockquote><p> Lets be honest, 90% of the playerbase is terrible at the classes they play, If you don't believe that, just do a bunch of PuGs or PuG BGs and you will come around. To think all players are at the same level of playing ability and skill is laughable.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-20-2010, 04:38 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>both of you aren't any better at playing this game then anyone else posting here.   THIS game is EASY it's not rocket science.</p><p> neither of you two know ANYTHING that any other summoner posting here does, so your post about elementary AA and general longevity is almost insulting since you posted it to "teach" other players with REAL concerns about the class how to play?</p><p>  you're not special every fully fabled raid outfitted summoner is going to blow up  a pick up raid/group if you get a good healer that STANDS RIGHT BY YOU and HEALS YOU.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Or you can heal yourselfe and avoide the attacker?</span></p><p><strong> the only problem is that once you encounter an equally GEARED player you die just like any other class with [Removed for Content] POOR SURVIVABILITY.</strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Ya sure.</span></p><p> you're both a joke because you don't know anything mechanical about the workings of this game, all you do is "press buttons good"  great!  i'm happy for you but please if you don't understand how this game works and class balance please stop posting your non-sense.</p><p>  also why don't you send your pet against a NAME mob not some trash mobs since AT LEAST a name mob will have a buff package slightly closer to what an actual player would have!    of course i don't expect you to know that since you're clearly you're clueless.</p><p>PS.</p><p> you two remind me of the "down syndrome" Xill who thought he was some "summoner god" and the only thing he achieved was to get summoner gear nerfed in other words his pompous post made the class WORSE.   clearly what you two are after i'm guessing?</p></blockquote><p> Still it dosent make any diffrent what we post? We have tried to show that you can do good with the class. But since you already made up your mind it´s useless.</p><p>Anyway GLH wont answear on any more uselessposttroll.</p>

Davngr1
05-20-2010, 04:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>both of you aren't any better at playing this game then anyone else posting here.   THIS game is EASY it's not rocket science.</p> <p> neither of you two know ANYTHING that any other summoner posting here does, so your post about elementary AA and general longevity is almost insulting since you posted it to "teach" other players with REAL concerns about the class how to play?</p> <p>  you're not special every fully fabled raid outfitted summoner is going to blow up  a pick up raid/group if you get a good healer that STANDS RIGHT BY YOU and HEALS YOU.  </p> <p> the only problem is that once you encounter an equally GEARED player you die just like any other class with [Removed for Content] POOR SURVIVABILITY.</p> <p> you're both a joke because you don't know anything mechanical about the workings of this game, all you do is "press buttons good"  great!  i'm happy for you but please if you don't understand how this game works and class balance please stop posting your non-sense.</p> <p>  also why don't you send your pet against a NAME mob not some trash mobs since AT LEAST a name mob will have a buff package slightly closer to what an actual player would have!    of course i don't expect you to know that since you're clearly you're clueless.</p><p>PS.</p> <p> you two remind me of the "down syndrome" Xill who thought he was some "summoner god" and the only thing he achieved was to get summoner gear nerfed in other words his pompous post made the class WORSE.   clearly what you two are after i'm guessing?</p></blockquote><p> Lets be honest, 90% of the playerbase is terrible at the classes they play, If you don't believe that, just do a bunch of PuGs or PuG BGs and you will come around. To think all players are at the same level of playing ability and skill is laughable.</p></blockquote><p>lets be honest, over 60% of the effectiveness of the class is now directly do to gear, if you don't belive that think back at the early days when the biggest proc damage was a "heroic opportunity" and i was out parsing fully fabled characters all the time because i indeed "played the class better" then they did.  btw i'm all for this while you're at it make the pet run in and attack(melee) every 15 seconds again, remove ridiculous proc damage from gear thus placing efficiency directly on the player not their gear.</p>

Notsovilepriest
05-20-2010, 04:44 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>both of you aren't any better at playing this game then anyone else posting here.   THIS game is EASY it's not rocket science.</p> <p> neither of you two know ANYTHING that any other summoner posting here does, so your post about elementary AA and general longevity is almost insulting since you posted it to "teach" other players with REAL concerns about the class how to play?</p> <p>  you're not special every fully fabled raid outfitted summoner is going to blow up  a pick up raid/group if you get a good healer that STANDS RIGHT BY YOU and HEALS YOU.  </p> <p> the only problem is that once you encounter an equally GEARED player you die just like any other class with [Removed for Content] POOR SURVIVABILITY.</p> <p> you're both a joke because you don't know anything mechanical about the workings of this game, all you do is "press buttons good"  great!  i'm happy for you but please if you don't understand how this game works and class balance please stop posting your non-sense.</p> <p>  also why don't you send your pet against a NAME mob not some trash mobs since AT LEAST a name mob will have a buff package slightly closer to what an actual player would have!    of course i don't expect you to know that since you're clearly you're clueless.</p><p>PS.</p> <p> you two remind me of the "down syndrome" Xill who thought he was some "summoner god" and the only thing he achieved was to get summoner gear nerfed in other words his pompous post made the class WORSE.   clearly what you two are after i'm guessing?</p></blockquote><p> Lets be honest, 90% of the playerbase is terrible at the classes they play, If you don't believe that, just do a bunch of PuGs or PuG BGs and you will come around. To think all players are at the same level of playing ability and skill is laughable.</p></blockquote><p>lets be honest, over 60% of the effectiveness of the class is now directly do to gear, if you don't belive that think back at the early days when the biggest proc damage was a "heroic opportunity" and i was out parsing fully fabled characters all the time because i indeed "played the class better" then they did.  btw i'm all for this while you're at it make the pet run in and attack(melee) every 15 seconds again, remove ridiculous proc damage from gear thus placing efficiency directly on the player not their gear.</p></blockquote><p>Gear is a big part now, but there are players decked out in gear in every raid guild that aren't that good, but fill a slot the guild needs, you know it and I know it. The fact is, even though this game is easy to play, it isn't for a lot of people and they just don't get it, or even know how to gear themselves.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-20-2010, 04:45 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I was refering to the whole thread. And yes this thread is pointless now.</p><p>Sure buff summerners a bit, but if I know SOE they will just make us lulz op or do nothing at all. And in that case I prefer nothing at all. And if they boost ouer class to OP I´ll just change class to a defiler or trouba/dirge lol.</p><p>GLH</p></blockquote><p>this thread was always pointless. </p><p> it's a borderline troll thread full of "common" information created with the intention to insult players intelligence.</p><p><strong> it's quite funny to see you both "cry victim"  when people insult you back when in fact the trolls here are you two.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Oh and pls who me where I´ve insulted anyone? Pls give me a link.</p>

Davngr1
05-20-2010, 04:49 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>both of you aren't any better at playing this game then anyone else posting here.   THIS game is EASY it's not rocket science.</p><p> neither of you two know ANYTHING that any other summoner posting here does, so your post about elementary AA and general longevity is almost insulting since you posted it to "teach" other players with REAL concerns about the class how to play?</p><p>  you're not special every fully fabled raid outfitted summoner is going to blow up  a pick up raid/group if you get a good healer that STANDS RIGHT BY YOU and HEALS YOU.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Or you can heal yourselfe and avoide the attacker?</span></p><p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">what are you even talking about?   does your necro come equipped with a block button?   or you do you really think other necros just stand there and get killed because they didnt get rooted or stunned? </span></p> <p><span style="color: #33cccc;"> you think you're the only one with enough common sense to get away from the attack if you can?  </span></p> <p><span style="color: #33cccc;"> </span></p> <span style="color: #33cccc;"> srsly w.t.f.</span><p><strong> the only problem is that once you encounter an equally GEARED player you die just like any other class with [Removed for Content] POOR SURVIVABILITY.</strong></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Ya sure.</span></p><p> <span style="color: #33cccc;">again huge ego yet you don't address the topic at hand.  just saying "i do it" isn't what this discussion is about.  this discussion is about the "class" effectiveness not "guld ulrish" and what he can do.</span></p> <p><span style="color: #33cccc;"> you NEED to make arguments that MAKE SENSE and DIRECTLY tie into the class abilities.  i don't doubt that you're a good player man, i just doubt you truly understand why that is. </span></p><p> you're both a joke because you don't know anything mechanical about the workings of this game, all you do is "press buttons good"  great!  i'm happy for you but please if you don't understand how this game works and class balance please stop posting your non-sense.</p><p>  also why don't you send your pet against a NAME mob not some trash mobs since AT LEAST a name mob will have a buff package slightly closer to what an actual player would have!    of course i don't expect you to know that since you're clearly you're clueless.</p><p>PS.</p><p> you two remind me of the "down syndrome" Xill who thought he was some "summoner god" and the only thing he achieved was to get summoner gear nerfed in other words his pompous post made the class WORSE.   clearly what you two are after i'm guessing?</p></blockquote><p> Still it dosent make any diffrent what we post? We have tried to show that you can do good with the class. But since you already made up your mind it´s useless.</p><p>Anyway GLH wont answear on any more uselessposttroll.</p></blockquote>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 07:33 PM
<p>Gather around children, i have a stupid story to tell <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p style="text-align: left;">In a land far far away, there once was a little City called Everquestopolis. And one Summer there was a really bad drought, so all their crops failed,the people without food and water started to riot. The Government decided to try and FIX this problem so they flew in supplies like food and water to help the people that are struggling to survive....BUT there was a mean old man named Koppar, and this mean old man was VERY VERY rich and had STOCKPILES of FOOD and Water in his house...who refused to share and help the poor people of Everquestopolis. Now this mean old man was very much against helping the poor dying people and decided to hire a goon who went by the name of Dorsan. So as much as this rich mean old man protested the goverment giving these people help and always thought everyone should just find their own way to make money and somehow produce food for themselves in this crazy drought.</p><p style="text-align: left;">Late one night, right about at the same time the food and water was being flown in by airplane..this mean old man tells his hired goons to intercept all the food and water at the airport and dump it off the cliff where noone can have it. The people woke up the next morning, feeling even weaker than before..so they asked the government "Wut up yo? Where is the help we were promised?" and the Government replied "Bisch please, it was sopposed to come in last night but the mean old fart and his hired helped formed a blockade around the airport" the people died a little inside hearing this....who was this mean old man and why is he being such a diick they were asking... Noone had an answer unfortunately. So the people all made SK's and Assassins/rangers instead.</p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>THE END - >   Now replace THE GOVERNMENT with   - SONY</strong></p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>                       Replace Food and Water with - the survivability we desperately need help with.</strong></p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>                       Replace Koppar and Dorsan with - Koppar and Dorsan</strong></p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>  </strong>Dorsan you seem like a nice guy and i got nothing against you, i just dont agree with most of the things you say in this thread.</p><p style="text-align: left;"> </p>

Notsovilepriest
05-20-2010, 07:42 PM
<p>So it's wrong to say that you just need to learn to play the class if you're doing so bad.</p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 08:03 PM
<p> No its not wrong, but you would need to say L2p to just about 90% of the Nagafen population. I make the best of it and tear it up on my necro, but the facts are in tier 9 where assassins can just port and bypass stealth requirements with a temp, rangers can just autoattack your face off with temps and sks can do a nice faceroll on the keyboard and win... ( btw nubs playing those classes that i just used as an example...now put those same nubs behind a necro...how well do you think they would live in open world pvp ) Survivability of summoners compared to other classes is very different.</p><p>What im trying to do is raise the survivability of our class...we got a ton of useless aa for PVE and PVE only...where other classes get at least a little bit of love as the bare minimum. Looking at necros like mine or Dorsans or Koppars doesnt change the fact that you need to have insane gear and a crazy amount of skill just to do really well in pvp...instead of doing a nice keyboard faceroll on an sk for example.  >>>>>>> These here are the facts...necros can rip off anyones face ( Btw i feel bad for conjys that dont have heals or taps <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> <strong>BUT summoners are also the most fragile mage there is next to chanters..but hey at least they get some decent pvp aa to pvp with, istead of having most of it being for pure PVE</strong></p>

Stuckx
05-20-2010, 08:10 PM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> No its not wrong, but you would need to say L2p to just about 90% of the Nagafen population. I make make the best of it and tear it up on my necro, but the facts are in tier 9 where assassins can just port and bypass stealth requirements with a temp, rangers can just autoattack your face off with temps and sks can do a nice faceroll on the keyboard and win... ( btw nubs playing those classes that i just used as an example...now put those same nubs behind a necro...how well do you think they would live in open world pvp ) Survivability of summoners compared to other classes is very different.</p><p>What im trying to do is raise the survivability of our class...we got a ton of useless aa for PVE and PVE only...where other classes get at least a little bit of love as the bare minimum. Looking at necros like mine or Dorsans or Koppars doesnt change the fact that you need to have insane gear and a crazy amount of skill just to do really well in pvp...instead of doing a nice keyboard faceroll on an sk for example.  >>>>>>> These here are the facts...necros can rip off anyones face ( Btw i feel bad for conjys that dont have heals or taps <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> <strong>BUT summoners are also the most fragile mage there is next to chanters..but hey at least they get some decent pvp aa to pvp with, istead of having most of it being for pure PVE</strong></p></blockquote><p>Mage's are supposed to be squishy..we all know that,but we're supposed to trade that lack of survivability for DPS. As it is now,we we aren't trading survivability for anything..we have poor DPS. There is absolutely no reason to play a summoner,trading survivability for DPS,when you could play a scout who makes no compromise,gets big DPS,and excellent survivability.</p><p>The class is broken.</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 11:00 PM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gather around children, i have a stupid story to tell <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p style="text-align: left;">In a land far far away, there once was a little City called Everquestopolis. And one Summer there was a really bad drought, so all their crops failed,the people without food and water started to riot. The Government decided to try and FIX this problem so they flew in supplies like food and water to help the people that are struggling to survive....BUT there was a mean old man named Koppar, and this mean old man was VERY VERY rich and had STOCKPILES of FOOD and Water in his house...who refused to share and help the poor people of Everquestopolis. Now this mean old man was very much against helping the poor dying people and decided to hire a goon who went by the name of Dorsan. So as much as this rich mean old man protested the goverment giving these people help and always thought everyone should just find their own way to make money and somehow produce food for themselves in this crazy drought.</p><p style="text-align: left;">Late one night, right about at the same time the food and water was being flown in by airplane..this mean old man tells his hired goons to intercept all the food and water at the airport and dump it off the cliff where noone can have it. The people woke up the next morning, feeling even weaker than before..so they asked the government "Wut up yo? Where is the help we were promised?" and the Government replied "Bisch please, it was sopposed to come in last night but the mean old fart and his hired helped formed a blockade around the airport" the people died a little inside hearing this....who was this mean old man and why is he being such a diick they were asking... Noone had an answer unfortunately. So the people all made SK's and Assassins/rangers instead.</p></blockquote><p style="text-align: left;">In a land far far away, there once was a little City called Everquestopolis. And one summer there was a really bad drought, so all their crops failed, but the people did nothing. A few complained here and there but most of them either left the city and moved to Shadowland or Wardwillage, while some adapted and learned to live with what they have. Then the next year came and while it wasn't perfect, the crops did much better compared to the previous year. Many healing herbs grew on the fields and those that survived the previous year were satisfied with what they had now. However there was a battleground near the city and many new people moved in there because they wanted to fight for their cause. They weren't satisfied with what they had. They looked at the neigbour villages, Assassi city and Village of Berserk. They have seen that in those places people had much more than they can eat. However the gods have also seen that those places got too much and decided to take away some of their food soon and give some to the people of Summonville. Even though these new people knew about the gods decisions, they weren't happy. They became greedy and wanted all what Assassi city and Village of Berserk had. A few of the survivors tried to calm them down, pointing out the exact ways they used to survive the previous year - that was much tougher compared to the current one. They knew that after the gods make their will, the balance will be somewhat restored and that there isn't much need to go beyond that. However the people, unsatisfied with the situation at hand, turned their anger towards them. Reasoning didn't work with these. All they did was to attack and insult where they could. But none of them offered any suggestions. They didn't pray to the gods for more crops, they didnt suggest any ways out of their situation. They just cursed away at gods, at the survivors and at the citizens of the nearby settlements. Then one of the survivors tried to come up with a solution, a way to change the acknowledgement of achievements of the citizens in a more rewarding fashion. He spent days and nights trying to find a way that would be acceptable to the gods and to the rioting masses. He tried to contact some of the people to gather their thoughts and ideas. However... He had to realise that the rioting masses had no intention to actually solve anything. They just wanted to complain and insult whoever is in their way...</p>

Remmyr
05-20-2010, 11:20 PM
<p> This isnt a contest Dorsan =p. I should copyright my stuff next time. I would like to think that my little story at least gave someone a lul, actually made sense and was remotely comprehensive to most people.  I found your's a little hard to follow =/</p>

Dorsan
05-20-2010, 11:49 PM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> This isnt a contest Dorsan =p. I should copyright my stuff next time. I would like to think that my little story at least gave someone a lul, actually made sense and was remotely comprehensive to most people.  I found your's a little hard to follow =/</p></blockquote><p><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Pwned by my poor english, I take. Anyways I've made a full list of AA's that could be changed to improve survivability without debalancing us, I'll try to find you in game to discuss. If we come up with a solution with what all can agree with, I am sure we have a fair chance of seeing it implemented.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-21-2010, 03:22 AM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gather around children, i have a stupid story to tell <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p style="text-align: left;">In a land far far away, there once was a little City called Everquestopolis. And one Summer there was a really bad drought, so all their crops failed,the people without food and water started to riot. The Government decided to try and FIX this problem so they flew in supplies like food and water to help the people that are struggling to survive....BUT there was a mean old man named Koppar, and this mean old man was VERY VERY rich and had STOCKPILES of FOOD and Water in his house...who refused to share and help the poor people of Everquestopolis. Now this mean old man was very much against helping the poor dying people and decided to hire a goon who went by the name of Dorsan. So as much as this rich mean old man protested the goverment giving these people help and always thought everyone should just find their own way to make money and somehow produce food for themselves in this crazy drought.</p><p style="text-align: left;">Late one night, right about at the same time the food and water was being flown in by airplane..this mean old man tells his hired goons to intercept all the food and water at the airport and dump it off the cliff where noone can have it. The people woke up the next morning, feeling even weaker than before..so they asked the government "Wut up yo? Where is the help we were promised?" and the Government replied "Bisch please, it was sopposed to come in last night but the mean old fart and his hired helped formed a blockade around the airport" the people died a little inside hearing this....who was this mean old man and why is he being such a diick they were asking... Noone had an answer unfortunately. So the people all made SK's and Assassins/rangers instead.</p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>THE END - >   Now replace THE GOVERNMENT with   - SONY</strong></p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>                       Replace Food and Water with - the survivability we desperately need help with.</strong></p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>                       Replace Koppar and Dorsan with - Koppar and Dorsan</strong></p><p style="text-align: left;"><strong>  </strong>Dorsan you seem like a nice guy and i got nothing against you, i just dont agree with most of the things you say in this thread.</p><p style="text-align: left;"> </p></blockquote><p>Was pretty fun tbh.</p>

Dorsan
05-21-2010, 03:47 AM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Was pretty fun tbh.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, for you. Cause you got to be the evil old man. I wanna be the evil old man in the next one! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-21-2010, 04:00 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Was pretty fun tbh.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, for you. Cause you got to be the evil old man. I wanna be the evil old man in the next one! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Haha I can write a story with you as the old evil man, when I get home :p</p>

Davngr1
05-21-2010, 04:03 AM
<p> well i have suggested on other threads to revamp the wisdom line into something useful since it's pretty much pointles the way it is now. some conj might disagree since they sometimes use it to absorb aoe damage from their pet but i think even for them it's a fair payoff since moslty all summoners seem to enjoy BG's.    i atleast have fun on my necro.</p><p>  maybe make amist bond use the pets hp or power to ward the summoner or something.     i feel a 100% damage share abilitie would either be over powerd or useless in any given situation so it needs to be a temp ability.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-21-2010, 05:20 AM
<p>I would like more pet taunts. And maybe a boneshield or something.</p>

Stuckx
05-21-2010, 06:06 AM
<p>The best fix for summoners in my opinion would be to give us the damage reduction AA,and something along the lines of the pet intercepting 50% of damage done to the summoner..perma buff of course. 50% of a 4k auto attack still leaves rangers hitting us for 2k..50% of an assassins 2k auto attack still hits for 1k. We would still be pretty squishy,but we would atleast be more viable.</p><p>A DPS increase larger than 15% would be needed too..more along the lines of 30%,consdering our single targets only do about 1-1.5k..AOE's aren't even worth casting,the damage is so minimal.</p>

Dorsan
05-21-2010, 06:18 AM
Now those are points I couldn't agree with. The problem is that 50% damage reduction is actually 200% survivability. That is simply too much for a perma buff. And I also don't think we need a damage bump so huge. I think part of the disagreement is in the way we see our roles. If it is a 1on1 fight, it really doesn't matter if you burn someone slowly while disabling them, using pet taunts, etc, or burn them fast. As long as you are able to burn them it works. And in group vs group our role is not to do the killing blows. Our role is to provide constant steady DPS that negates wards and HoTs so that the spike classes can do their job. If we go down the damage reduction route, that must be a temporary buff and it has to be compensated in some manner. This is something I find acceptable: Animist's Bond Casting time: instant Recovery time: instant Duration: 30 seconds Reuse time: 3 minutes Effects: - Reduces all incoming damage done to caster by 2/3. Inflicts disease damage on the pet for half of the prevented damage. - Reduces all incoming damage done to pet by 2/3. Inflicts disease damage on the caster for half of the prevented damage. Also the STA pet taunt needs to be 2.1 sec for Rank 1 and 3.0 sec for Rank 10, and unresistable at rank 10. The pet defensive stance taunt should proc 4.0 times per minute.

Roald
05-21-2010, 09:52 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>both of you aren't any better at playing this game then anyone else posting here. </p></blockquote><p>Yes they are.</p>

baldwinboy3
05-21-2010, 10:54 AM
<p>TO: Guld Ulrish and Dorsan!</p><p>Just FYI but I have learned a lot from you guys in this thread and watching the PvP videos.</p><p>Just wanted to say Thanks since so many haters in this thread.</p>

Valdar
05-21-2010, 11:04 AM
<p>Enjoyed Koppar's video too. Nice change from all the melee vids. Just wondering about the pally fight, didn't he turn on bow attacks? Seems like you weren't taking any damage while hopping around out of range.</p><p>Also was your dps relatively higher in T8? Saw you burn down healers pretty fast and I can't say I have any issues against necros 1v1. Or maybe I just fought really bad ones I dunno...</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-21-2010, 11:14 AM
<p>Hmm maybe he was out of arrows. And I still think I can burn healers down, I have not fought that many 1vs1 since all pvp is in Bgs. And if I cant kill them they cant kill me either. So it will be a power figth wich I migth win.</p>

Remmyr
05-21-2010, 02:07 PM
<p> See, now there we go...we're getting somewhere. <strong>Instead of saying NO we dont need ANY of our useless</strong> <strong>PVE aa changed to be somewhat usefull or helpfull even a little bit in pvp.</strong> My little story was only there to show you what you're trying to do by saying NO WE DONT NEED ANYTHING when clearly most of our aa is for PVE (when even pve servers are able to do bg's nowadays)  Necro's in t8 were insane, even OP because i personally put those other so called op classes to shame which were sk's / pallys, or coercers /wizzards at the time...we're you complaining that we are too overpowered then? or were you complaining for sony to nerf our own classes then = ) ? The answers to those is most likely No. With the tso pet debuff and the necro pact debuff its lights out for most people in t8 , in just about 2 - 3 seconds.  I enjoyed running around pvping knowing theres only about 5 people on the server that even have a good chance of killing me. (t8 <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p> I still manage about the same in t9 because i always find a way, but not for most necro's or conjys ..and yes a good bit of them are nubs but there are good ones with pretty good gear that are having a really hard time, and you gotta look at those people because those are the same people that are your old friends/guildies/or just people you do zones with sometimes. Most summoners dont have the set bonus pet nuke/debuff anymore..we've all traded those in for the most part. A conjy friend of mine who used to play a guard long time ago...i know for a fact hes good and his gear is stacked enough but his survivability against most people is fail since almost everone would have an upper hand against him. Some people are stuck in t8 mindset, t9 is where we need abit of survivability increase - > ever since that mage nerf, kiting people and using every trick in the book most of the time doesnt help much when scouts, tanks have more hp of course, and theyre dishing out more than our summoners. Im comparing this in one v ones vs really skilled and geared people...so even tho we might kill them sometimes and wipe the floor with the mediocre /noobs, those really skilled/ geared people have a big upper hand atm when it comes to fighting an equally skilled/geared summoner. </p><p>----> Keep going with the ideas to improve instead of being stuck in t8, I want to hear what people have to say. ill try to make a list.</p><p>    <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Accelerated Decay for example is one thing that i have a problem with, i dont enjoy having to constantly heal myself over and over while running around looking for pvp. What other class in the game do you know that has to chip a tooth, fracture a rib and break a leg trying to pvp....what other class in the game do you know of that has to murder themselves with their awesome new endline...REALLY SONY!???</span></p>

Remmyr
05-21-2010, 02:10 PM
<p> And Phaust thats a nice Europa tag you have under your name here = )   But are you actually in europa? the answer might surprise even you.</p>

Davngr1
05-21-2010, 03:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>both of you aren't any better at playing this game then anyone else posting here. </p></blockquote><p>Yes they are.</p></blockquote><p> this game is not that hard and most of it has to do with gear and support.</p> <p> granted both of them understand PvP combat better then me but that is not considered part of knowing how to play the class.  </p><p>  every classes uses line of sight and pathing to gain the upper hand on their opponent.  this discussion is about tool available to ONLY summoners NOT PvP combat strategy sir.</p><p>  now of course if they knew about some supper secret ability that gives them more survivability in the AA tree or spell book then they would indeed be better then me at the class.    <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Dorsan
05-22-2010, 01:10 AM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Necro's in t8 were insane, even OP because i personally put those other so called op classes to shame which were sk's / pallys, or coercers /wizzards at the time...we're you complaining that we are too overpowered then? or were you complaining for sony to nerf our own classes then = ) ? The answers to those is most likely No. With the tso pet debuff and the necro pact debuff its lights out for most people in t8 , in just about 2 - 3 seconds.  I enjoyed running around pvping knowing theres only about 5 people on the server that even have a good chance of killing me. (t8 <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p> I still manage about the same in t9 because i always find a way, but not for most necro's or conjys ..and yes a good bit of them are nubs but there are good ones with pretty good gear that are having a really hard time, and you gotta look at those people because those are the same people that are your old friends/guildies/or just people you do zones with sometimes. Most summoners dont have the set bonus pet nuke/debuff anymore..we've all traded those in for the most part. A conjy friend of mine who used to play a guard long time ago...i know for a fact hes good and his gear is stacked enough but his survivability against most people is fail since almost everone would have an upper hand against him. Some people are stuck in t8 mindset, t9 is where we need abit of survivability increase - > ever since that mage nerf, kiting people and using every trick in the book most of the time doesnt help much when scouts, tanks have more hp of course, and theyre dishing out more than our summoners. Im comparing this in one v ones vs really skilled and geared people...so even tho we might kill them sometimes and wipe the floor with the mediocre /noobs, those really skilled/ geared people have a big upper hand atm when it comes to fighting an equally skilled/geared summoner.</p></blockquote><p>Palae, you are wrong about T8 vs T9. The problem is, you had extremely good gear compared to the rest of us in T8, so you had easy mode there, but for the average geared necro, like myself, T9 is much easier compared to T8. The Bg gear is easily accessible by anyone, and so are all the other pieces I wear. I only use raid gear when I am in gears and need to heal the relic holder, because I can crit heal for nearly 10k every 6 seconds in raid gear. But most of the time I am in 3 pieces from T8 PvP gear, T9 Bg gear and for jewelery I have a weird combination of T8 and T9 pieces, handpicked. So I would say my gear is pretty average, and so was in T8. And the difference is, in T8 Pudaan killed me with one autoattack, while now I can send him back to his healer if we are in closed space (I still fail to kill him - but that is simply because he has way more experience in PvP compared to me and knows all the tricks in the book). So from my point of view our survivability has increased by much in T9. The selfheals we have are 3 times better compared to T8. The beginning of SF felt like cheating to me. I was one-twoshotting people just like you say you did in T8. Go find my T8 PvP video and you will see that for me it took quite an effort to kill people, and I wasn't able to put people to shame like Xarekis and you could with your gear. And I wasn't complaining in T8, I am not complaining now either. But if ya'll think we need help, I think we could find a half way point between Stuckx who on one hand wants increased survivability, DPS and spike DPS and me - who thinks things are ok. So the halfway thing would be a few changed AA's in old summoner trees to increase survivability, that should be acceptable by everyone who is playing this class.</p><p>So if we all try to be realistic and pick a few changes, and if conjurors, necros and other classes all agree this is OK, we might get a green light from SoE for such fixes.</p><p>So to repeat my suggestion:</p><p>Animist Bond must be changed to protect both the pet and the necromancer. It's name is bond, it makes only sense if it bonds the health pools of the summoner and the pet in some manner. The current form of that AA is useless for everyone in PvE or PvP. And being a 30 seconds temp buff, it would not unbalance the summoners in PvE.</p><p>edit: And there are tons of PvE issues with the classes, which needs to be fixed, but I wouldn't go into them here. Please ya'll go to necro forums and support the intiatives to remove health drain from AD, to fix AD and UT stacking on soulrot and pandemic, to improve pet pathing and give the pet the same movement speed as the summoner has and to make swarm pets usefull finally.</p>

baldwinboy3
05-24-2010, 10:23 AM
<p>Dont forget that not everyone wants to play end game on every class and character they have. I have one almost at end and they are not a necro. Make it so that all tiers of Necros have some kind of help. It is hard to survive a necro at lower tiers. I am looking into it and testing a 43 locked necro with the best of best gear i can find against each class solo, and grped. I know at lvl 32 i got owned by two 22 greys in DLW (i was no where near twinked but a pally/sk or other classes would proablly killed them).</p><p>In lower tiers I try to do what I see other necros at higher lvls do, like use some kind of CC and keep distance and use my pet/s on them and this works for a quick second and then I am dead. Like i said i will be testing the necro in every way i can think of in the best gear, spells, aa i can get. Then i will test him with just MC gear and see the difference. I am trying to find what makes the necro so bad (according to most players).</p>

Blambil
05-24-2010, 02:39 PM
<p>I realize this is test, but this is yet another example of where/how summoners need some help..</p><p>Quote : "<span > On test right now my wizard is self buffed to 16,700 HP, with 69% pvp physical mitigation, 75% mitigation to each resist in pvp, 33% toughness and 80% pvp crit mit.  This is all without white adorns, and without a few pieces of pvp jewelry."</span></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=69&topic_id=477950" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=477950</a></p><p>It is apparently impossible for a summoner to be that well protected... (and we haven't even starting talking about Manaskins/runes/etc)</p>

Valdar
05-25-2010, 08:12 AM
<p><cite>Remmyred wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> And Phaust thats a nice Europa tag you have under your name here = )   But are you actually in europa? the answer might surprise even you.</p></blockquote><p>Forum doesn't update my guildinfo, not sure why. Doesn't really bother me and I was in Europa long enough to wear it. Not really a big deal tbh.</p>

baldwinboy3
05-25-2010, 09:52 AM
<p>TO Blambil:</p><p>I see your point with that. Wiz and Warlocks have so much more surviability than a Summoner. I have played all to lvl 70 plus (casters) and Summoner just does not add up. I am testing a Necro now to see if I can have a necro do as well as my Wiz or warlock. I dont play my illy or Coe anymore.</p>

Blambil
05-25-2010, 07:18 PM
<p>patch today solves part of the problem.. Stop playing your summoner in PVP altogether... use your SK/Scout/Ranger to farm tokens in easy mode.</p>

Dorsan
05-25-2010, 09:15 PM
OK, if someone is complaining about playing summoners after this patch they should simply reroll. If you can't play summoners now, you shouldn't try, it's obviously not for you.

Blambil
05-27-2010, 05:29 AM
<p>lol - whatever.. no changes I can see...</p>

Dorsan
05-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Ok, then I will tell you where to look. 1) Our spells are doing same amount of damage with PvP box checked or unchecked (check Bloodcloud for example) 2) You get 5% extra max health from character traits 3) You get tons of extra physical mitigation from character traits (My PvP physical mitigation is 64% solo now, 70% with a healer buff)

Badmotorfinger
05-27-2010, 11:22 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Ok, then I will tell you where to look. 1) Our spells are doing same amount of damage with PvP box checked or unchecked (check Bloodcloud for example) 2) You get 5% extra max health from character traits 3) You get tons of extra physical mitigation from character traits (My PvP physical mitigation is 64% solo now, 70% with a healer buff)</blockquote><p>Yep.  The physical mitigation and Health traits definatly have slowed the bleeding.  Aren't these available to all classes though?</p><p>Eitherway, I'm not made of toilet paper anymore; so I'm Happy with where I'm at right now.  I just wish I could PVP without crazy laaaaaagg so I could know for sure <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p>

Dorsan
05-27-2010, 11:31 AM
<p>Well, yeah, but we don't do physical mitigation, do we? Most complaints were related to physical damage anyway. Btw you can also get the indominable cloak for 680 more PvP mitigation - but it doesn't shows in the stats so I have no idea how much mitigation I got actually. Either way I think tanks were already capped at mitigation - since the cap is 75% so they don't get a huge boost like we do from this update.</p><p>edit: And don't forget the +4 mitigation for the chest piece. And I'm pretty sure I'm going for the +5 crit mit adorn for the rest of my gear once I get some additional pieces. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Badmotorfinger
05-27-2010, 11:46 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, yeah, but we don't do physical mitigation, do we? Most complaints were related to physical damage anyway. Btw you can also get the indominable cloak for 680 more PvP mitigation - but it doesn't shows in the stats so I have no idea how much mitigation I got actually. Either way I think tanks were already capped at mitigation - since the cap is 75% so they don't get a huge boost like we do from this update.</p><p>edit: And don't forget the +4 mitigation for the chest piece. And I'm pretty sure I'm going for the +5 crit mit adorn for the rest of my gear once I get some additional pieces. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I've got my eye on a few items too. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>What I'm not happy about, is still only having one AA mirror available to use...  Seriously, all I want is a group/ solo/ and PVP spec... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Why can't we do that yet?</p>

Dorsan
05-27-2010, 11:53 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I've got my eye on a few items too. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>What I'm not happy about, is still only having one AA mirror available to use...  Seriously, all I want is a group/ solo/ and PVP spec... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Why can't we do that yet?</p></blockquote><p>Honestly, I need exactly 4 spec. But 3 would be a bare minimum. This way I'm either hurting my solo build or my PvP build.</p>

Badmotorfinger
05-27-2010, 12:01 PM
<p>Yeah, that's the build I'm sharing right now too.  Way too many sacrifices from one side or the other, though.</p>

Blambil
05-27-2010, 04:17 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Ok, then I will tell you where to look. 1) Our spells are doing same amount of damage with PvP box checked or unchecked (check Bloodcloud for example) 2) You get 5% extra max health from character traits 3) You get tons of extra physical mitigation from character traits (My PvP physical mitigation is 64% solo now, 70% with a healer buff)</blockquote><p>Gosh, you're right... I can see the difference in my logs from last night... no wait... yep.. no difference..</p><p>---- Saw this guy coming, got a stun off, still died ----</p><p>(1274947602)[Thu May 27 01:06:42 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 1411 piercing damage.(1274947602)[Thu May 27 01:06:42 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 680 piercing damage.(1274947602)[Thu May 27 01:06:42 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 782 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout critically hits YOU for 2074 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout feels a sense of bravado!(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout's Interrupt critically hits YOU for 382 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout critically double attacks YOU for 1870 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout critically hits YOU for 844 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout critically double attacks YOU for 1173 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout's Snap of the Wrist hits YOU for 1064 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout's Snap of the Wrist hits YOU for 751 piercing damage.(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] YOUR Petrify critically hits Scout for 932 magic damage.(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] The sense of bravado fades from Scout.(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] The ground beneath Scout trembles!(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] Scout's Flash of Steel critically hits YOU for 1401 piercing damage.(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] Scout has killed you.</p><p>Saw this guy, started casting a root, and it was over before it started... Without the (4) times I parried (not bad... ) I would have been dead a lot faster..</p><p>(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Arctic Blast critically hits YOU for 729 cold damage.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Arctic Blast critically hits YOU for 311 cold damage.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Counterattack critically hits YOU for 425 piercing damage.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout tries to pierce YOU, but YOU parry.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Counterattack critically hits YOU for 623 piercing damage.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout tries to pierce YOU, but YOU parry the double attack.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Counterattack critically hits YOU for 534 piercing damage.(1274947720)[Thu May 27 01:08:40 2010] says to the group, "ROOTING ---> Scout <---"(1274947722)[Thu May 27 01:08:42 2010] Scout critically hits YOU for 387 piercing damage.(1274947722)[Thu May 27 01:08:42 2010] Scout's vitality breach hits YOU for 153 poison damage.(1274947722)[Thu May 27 01:08:42 2010] Scout tries to confound YOU with Soulsteal, but YOU resist.(1274947722)[Thu May 27 01:08:42 2010] Scout critically double attacks YOU for 448 piercing damage.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] Scout's Snap of the Wrist critically hits YOU for 1868 piercing damage.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] Scout shouts a taunt at your enemy.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] Scout's Daring Attack critically hits YOU for 395 piercing damage.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] Scout tries to pierce YOU with Snap of the Wrist, but YOU parry.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] YOU hit Scout for 112 crushing damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 1315 piercing damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's vitality breach hits YOU for 153 poison damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's vitality breach heals Nagafen.Smit for 112 hit points.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout shouts a taunt at your enemy.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's Daring Attack critically hits YOU for 276 piercing damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 652 piercing damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 515 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Flash of Steel critically hits YOU for 1535 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout shouts a taunt at your enemy.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout tries to pierce YOU with Daring Attack, but YOU parry.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Counterattack critically hits YOU for 784 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout is mired in Quicksand!(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout critically hits YOU for 364 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's vitality breach hits YOU for 153 poison damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Soulsteal confounds YOU draining 55 points of power.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Soulsteal refreshes Scout for 129 mana points.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Followthrough hits YOU for 477 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] The Quicksand binding Scout disappears.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout has killed you.</p>

Dorsan
05-27-2010, 09:52 PM
In the first attack the scout did a great job by starting with his mitigation debuff and then following up nicely. You either started casting stun way too late or your cast speed is extremely low but it just landed too late. However he was still doing twice the damage scouts can do if you're geared defensively so I am guessing you are either slacking in gear or your character traits aren't setup correctly or both. The fact that you took 13k damage and died suggests the same. The scout was probably way better geared than you in that fight. In the second fight the scout didn't quite did it right, he started off with his snare and then hit you a few times before the debuff so his dps went down as a consequence. You actually would have the chance here despite the gear difference (which is obviously in scouts favour - he is in the new PvP gear with blue adorns while you are in who know what that makes you have only 12k health) but you decided to go for the wrong thing. You have casted root while he was already in melee range. That makes absolutely no sense. The melee range in PvP is huge and while you get out of it with the snare on you - you would be dead anyway. You must start with a stun or pet taunt or both because those abilities actually make him stop hitting you and give you time to get away and cast root from a bit further away. Another option would be to swap places with your pet and then cast the root. Another thing... In both fights you seem to forget you have a pet too. You need to work on your gear and on your cast order. The class is ok as it is.

Jacquotte
05-28-2010, 04:23 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Ok, then I will tell you where to look. 1) Our spells are doing same amount of damage with PvP box checked or unchecked (check Bloodcloud for example) 2) You get 5% extra max health from character traits 3) You get tons of extra physical mitigation from character traits (My PvP physical mitigation is 64% solo now, 70% with a healer buff)</blockquote><p>Gosh, you're right... I can see the difference in my logs from last night... no wait... yep.. no difference..</p><p>---- Saw this guy coming, got a stun off, still died ----</p><p>(1274947602)[Thu May 27 01:06:42 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 1411 piercing damage.(1274947602)[Thu May 27 01:06:42 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 680 piercing damage.(1274947602)[Thu May 27 01:06:42 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 782 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout critically hits YOU for 2074 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout feels a sense of bravado!(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout's Interrupt critically hits YOU for 382 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout critically double attacks YOU for 1870 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout critically hits YOU for 844 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout critically double attacks YOU for 1173 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout's Snap of the Wrist hits YOU for 1064 piercing damage.(1274947603)[Thu May 27 01:06:43 2010] Scout's Snap of the Wrist hits YOU for 751 piercing damage.(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] YOUR Petrify critically hits Scout for 932 magic damage.(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] The sense of bravado fades from Scout.(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] The ground beneath Scout trembles!(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] Scout's Flash of Steel critically hits YOU for 1401 piercing damage.(1274947604)[Thu May 27 01:06:44 2010] Scout has killed you.</p><p>Saw this guy, started casting a root, and it was over before it started... Without the (4) times I parried (not bad... ) I would have been dead a lot faster..</p><p>(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Arctic Blast critically hits YOU for 729 cold damage.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Arctic Blast critically hits YOU for 311 cold damage.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Counterattack critically hits YOU for 425 piercing damage.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout tries to pierce YOU, but YOU parry.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Counterattack critically hits YOU for 623 piercing damage.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout tries to pierce YOU, but YOU parry the double attack.(1274947719)[Thu May 27 01:08:39 2010] Scout's Counterattack critically hits YOU for 534 piercing damage.(1274947720)[Thu May 27 01:08:40 2010] says to the group, "ROOTING ---> Scout <---"(1274947722)[Thu May 27 01:08:42 2010] Scout critically hits YOU for 387 piercing damage.(1274947722)[Thu May 27 01:08:42 2010] Scout's vitality breach hits YOU for 153 poison damage.(1274947722)[Thu May 27 01:08:42 2010] Scout tries to confound YOU with Soulsteal, but YOU resist.(1274947722)[Thu May 27 01:08:42 2010] Scout critically double attacks YOU for 448 piercing damage.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] Scout's Snap of the Wrist critically hits YOU for 1868 piercing damage.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] Scout shouts a taunt at your enemy.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] Scout's Daring Attack critically hits YOU for 395 piercing damage.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] Scout tries to pierce YOU with Snap of the Wrist, but YOU parry.(1274947723)[Thu May 27 01:08:43 2010] YOU hit Scout for 112 crushing damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 1315 piercing damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's vitality breach hits YOU for 153 poison damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's vitality breach heals Nagafen.Smit for 112 hit points.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout shouts a taunt at your enemy.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's Daring Attack critically hits YOU for 276 piercing damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 652 piercing damage.(1274947724)[Thu May 27 01:08:44 2010] Scout's Flurry of Blades critically hits YOU for 515 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Flash of Steel critically hits YOU for 1535 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout shouts a taunt at your enemy.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout tries to pierce YOU with Daring Attack, but YOU parry.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Counterattack critically hits YOU for 784 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout is mired in Quicksand!(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout critically hits YOU for 364 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's vitality breach hits YOU for 153 poison damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Soulsteal confounds YOU draining 55 points of power.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Soulsteal refreshes Scout for 129 mana points.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout's Followthrough hits YOU for 477 piercing damage.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] The Quicksand binding Scout disappears.(1274947725)[Thu May 27 01:08:45 2010] Scout has killed you.</p></blockquote><p>the class you fought (swashbuckler) is the ideal casterkiller, fighting those will be hard. But yea, seeing 2second fights are sad, so i feel with you there</p>

Blambil
05-28-2010, 05:10 PM
<p>Useful, well thought out feedback, thank you for not just blindly saying, as most seem to do on these threads, "(I don't play one) but I'm sure summoners are just fine".. . Couple thoughts:</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>In the first attack the scout did a great job by starting with his mitigation debuff and then following up nicely. You either started casting stun way too late or your cast speed is extremely low but it just landed too late. However he was still doing twice the damage scouts can do if you're geared defensively so I am guessing you are either slacking in gear or your character traits aren't setup correctly or both. The fact that you took 13k damage and died suggests the same. The scout was probably way better geared than you in that fight. </blockquote><p>The casting time on my stun is 0.9 seconds.. Given current caps, it's actually impossible to get it any lower. This fight goes exactly to the point people are trying to make.. I got off (1) spell. A stun.. Given the situation I found myself in (running, pet behind me, etc), that's the very BEST thing I could have cast in the approximately (1) second I had before death. As you can see, even doing the RIGHT thing,  I still died.</p><p>Toughness mid 300's, spec'd primarily for DPS (STR/INT summoner lines). There's always room for improvement, but this first fight symbolizes the frustration summoners feel...</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>In the second fight the scout didn't quite did it right, he started off with his snare and then hit you a few times before the debuff so his dps went down as a consequence. You actually would have the chance here despite the gear difference (which is obviously in scouts favour - he is in the new PvP gear with blue adorns while you are in who know what that makes you have only 12k health) but you decided to go for the wrong thing. You have casted root while he was already in melee range. That makes absolutely no sense. The melee range in PvP is huge and while you get out of it with the snare on you - you would be dead anyway. You must start with a stun or pet taunt or both because those abilities actually make him stop hitting you and give you time to get away and cast root from a bit further away. Another option would be to swap places with your pet and then cast the root. </blockquote><p>At least this fight, I wasn't DEAD in 1.2 seconds, but the fight was effectively over. I saw him coming, thought I had enough range to root and back up.. Obviously I did not.  I have 14k HP and change self buffed, and as you can see, it goes very fast.</p><p>This fight to me points out several others things that are against the summoner. (1) HUGE pvp melee range. (2) CA's on the run, while casters have to stop, fighting someone with 25% or more HP than me who can outDMG with with Autoattack, just to name a few.</p><p>I'm not practiced yet with the "pet swap" ability, slowing remembering to use it.. Most of the time, however, the pet is fairly close to you, so unless you can intentionally run off, and make the pet stay, you're still within the HUGE melee range.. almost all my attempts so far have been fails.. (now if the port ALSO force a targeting switch.. that could be fun..)</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Another thing... In both fights you seem to forget you have a pet too. You need to work on your gear and on your cast order. The class is ok as it is.</blockquote><p>Didn't forget, pet auto-attacks as soon as I get attacked.. "/pet attack" is also on every primary DMG macro I use. Pet however, also takes time to cast.. and 2 seconds is not enough time for the PET to make a difference. (except as you correctly pointed out, with a taunt)</p><p>To me both of these fights summarize a lot of what's wrong with summoners.. Survivability. Not that I'm not leaving room for improvement, because I can get better gear, tactics, etc, but I'm not sure any of that would have mattered much in these two fights.</p>

Davngr1
05-28-2010, 06:36 PM
<p>the problem AGAIN is that it's too easy to bypass the pet and kill the summoner.</p><p> PVE = balanced survivability or actualy in favor of summoner.</p><p> PvP = broken survivability.  </p><p> i pretty much tank a group of players on my sorc and cast at least 3 spells before i die on my necro it's more like one spell but not really.</p><p> my chanter can lock up an entire group of people and get off at least 2 spells before he dies and my healer (if i have one) is like a super god with my buffs (temp and maintained).</p>

Dorsan
05-29-2010, 12:25 AM
<p>Ok, Blambil, you need to respec into more defensive build. The DPS build for summoner PvP will just never cut it. If you don't have the STA pet taunt then you reduced your defenses by 30% already. It can taunt lock your opponent to your pet for 2 seconds every 6 seconds or so. You must spec that, you also must spec the parrying to max and get the 5% uncontested avoidance from the drink/food. It is simply a must.</p><p>Also you are greatly underestimating the defense you get if you gear up. Based on what I know about your gear, I will assume the following: you have 40% pvp physical mitigation, you have 20% toughness and 40% PvP critical mitigation. This is how the damage calculation is going for you vs an opponent with +100 crit bonus:</p><p>His CA damage starts from 100% as his CA description says.</p><p>His crit multiplier is calculated as 2.5 - 0.4 = 2.1 So after the crit calculation he is hitting for 210% damage.</p><p>Then that damage is reduced by your physical mitigation to 60% of its value, leading to 126% damage.</p><p>Then your toughness is added into the equation reducing the damage to 80% of its value, getting to 100.8% damage.</p><p>So with your 14.000 health, you can survive 13.889 physical damage as per ca descritption.</p><p>Now if you get a gear of the same level as the scout that was attacking you has (and I did check his gear), you would end up with 65% pvp physical mitigation, 40% toughness and 100% pvp critical mitigation. Also your health would be around 17000. In that case your incoming damage would look like this:</p><p>His CA damage starts from 100% as his CA description says.</p><p>His crit multiplier is calculated as 2.5 - 1.0 = 1.5. So after the crit calculation he is hitting for 150% damage.</p><p>Then that damage is reduced by your physical mitigation to 35% of its value leading to 52.5% damage</p><p>Then your toughness is added into the equation reducing the damage to 60% of its value, getting to 31.5% damage</p><p>So with your 17.000 health, you can survive 53.968 physical damage as pet ca description.</p><p>So purely with getting the full blue adorned toughness gear the 3 second fight will become 12 second fight. And in 12 second fight you can get your pet taunt off 3 times, making it 18 second fight. Then you can effectively add your cc's because you didnt die before you could cast 1 stun, use heals, and eventually kill that person. Add to that a more effective defensive build and you will be able to kill that scout.</p><p>What you can immediatelly do is, check your character thraits and make sure that you took all the physical mitigation you could from there and all the health bonuses too. If you didn't do that yet, this will solely help a lot. Then check your aa build and try to make it as defensive as possible. The DPS build is wrong because you can't DPS dead.</p><p>edit: Gear wise before anything else get these 2 things:</p><p>  - Indominable cloak (gives +651 physical damage in PvP - it won't show in your stats, but it does work)</p><p>  - Chest piece with the +4% physical mitigation blue adornment</p>

Blambil
05-30-2010, 07:44 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, Blambil, you need to respec into more defensive build. The DPS build for summoner PvP will just never cut it. If you don't have the STA pet taunt then you reduced your defenses by 30% already. It can taunt lock your opponent to your pet for 2 seconds every 6 seconds or so. You must spec that, you also must spec the parrying to max and get the 5% uncontested avoidance from the drink/food. It is simply a must.</p></blockquote><p>(already have parry maxed, check 2nd fight... already use avoidance food/drink)</p><p>2 seconds of taunt out of 6 seconds, doesn't help enough. The remaining 4 seconds are more than enough to get ripped apart.</p><p>At the end of the day:</p><div><p>any class can get 80% spell avoidance and 80% spell dmg reduction.</p><p>a summoner cannot get 80% melee avoidance and 80% melee mitigation.</p><p>until that imbalance is resolved, not much else matters..</p><p>what then?</p><p>most class CA's can be cast on the run</p><p>most dmg spells CANNOT be cast on the run.</p><p><p>until that imbalance is resolved, root/snare/etc doesn't really matter.</p></p></div>

de lori
05-30-2010, 08:13 PM
<p>Dorsan...how is sacrificing all your dps for defense working out for you against say a tank...maybe a <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=479774" target="_blank">pally?</a></p>

Dorsan
05-30-2010, 10:10 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Dorsan...how is sacrificing all your dps for defense working out for you against say a tank...maybe a <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=479774" target="_blank">pally?</a></p></blockquote><p>How much DPS do you think I am sacrificing? And it does go well, I don't die against say a tank... Or a scout, or a mage, or nearly anything you throw at me. So it is working well. But the spell and melee damage are both too low regardless of builds. When I fight sorcerers I kill them, but it is going slowly and their spells are doing nearly no damage either. Rangers don't even move my healthbar down, all I notice is that something keeps interrupting my spell casting if I have 2 of them on me. xyz's Fusion hits you for 400 damage. 400?? Really??? Spell and melee damage is way too low, and anyone who PvP'd in T8 can see that. But that is all irrelevant for this thread. People are complaining about summoner survivability and I have provided solutions for -that-. If you disagree go with your own build, and good luck with it. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Stuckx
05-30-2010, 10:22 PM
<p>I disagree with you about damage being too low.</p><p>As a healer with 66-70% mitigation in PVP,I'm still getting hit by melee for alot of damage..scouts can still spike me down fast if I don't have taunts.</p>

Dorsan
05-30-2010, 10:31 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree with you about damage being too low.</p><p>As a healer with 66-70% mitigation in PVP,I'm still getting hit by melee for alot of damage..scouts can still spike me down fast if I don't have taunts.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I burn down wardens with low toughness fast too. Your warden is in mixed t8-t9 gear with tons of pve pieces which makes it more vulnerable. But it's understandable if we consider how much you hop from character to character. My post was actually related to 2 people in full T9 PvP gear fighting eachother. If you go to that thread you'll see how I wrote that it is related to the PvP gear mostly.</p>

Stuckx
05-30-2010, 10:55 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree with you about damage being too low.</p><p>As a healer with 66-70% mitigation in PVP,I'm still getting hit by melee for alot of damage..scouts can still spike me down fast if I don't have taunts.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I burn down wardens with low toughness fast too. Your warden is in mixed t8-t9 gear with tons of pve pieces which makes it more vulnerable. But it's understandable if we consider how much you hop from character to character. My post was actually related to 2 people in full T9 PvP gear fighting eachother. If you go to that thread you'll see how I wrote that it is related to the PvP gear mostly.</p></blockquote><p>I have two pieces of the t8 PVP armor,and only because my raid gear hasn't dropped. Why am I wearing raid gear instead of PVP gear? Because it's better. Toughness,imo, doesn't make enough of a difference to sacrifice the better procs,and better adornments on the T9 Raid gear.</p>

Notsovilepriest
05-30-2010, 11:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree with you about damage being too low.</p><p>As a healer with 66-70% mitigation in PVP,I'm still getting hit by melee for alot of damage..scouts can still spike me down fast if I don't have taunts.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I burn down wardens with low toughness fast too. Your warden is in mixed t8-t9 gear with tons of pve pieces which makes it more vulnerable. But it's understandable if we consider how much you hop from character to character. My post was actually related to 2 people in full T9 PvP gear fighting eachother. If you go to that thread you'll see how I wrote that it is related to the PvP gear mostly.</p></blockquote><p>I have two pieces of the t8 PVP armor,and only because my raid gear hasn't dropped. Why am I wearing raid gear instead of PVP gear? Because it's better. Toughness,imo, doesn't make enough of a difference to sacrifice the better procs,and better adornments on the T9 Raid gear.</p></blockquote><p>Toughness definately has a major effect on survivability over most raid pieces, the exception being if it has a major red adorn on it, or a ward/major proc</p>

Stuckx
05-30-2010, 11:04 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree with you about damage being too low.</p><p>As a healer with 66-70% mitigation in PVP,I'm still getting hit by melee for alot of damage..scouts can still spike me down fast if I don't have taunts.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I burn down wardens with low toughness fast too. Your warden is in mixed t8-t9 gear with tons of pve pieces which makes it more vulnerable. But it's understandable if we consider how much you hop from character to character. My post was actually related to 2 people in full T9 PvP gear fighting eachother. If you go to that thread you'll see how I wrote that it is related to the PvP gear mostly.</p></blockquote><p>I have two pieces of the t8 PVP armor,and only because my raid gear hasn't dropped. Why am I wearing raid gear instead of PVP gear? Because it's better. Toughness,imo, doesn't make enough of a difference to sacrifice the better procs,and better adornments on the T9 Raid gear.</p></blockquote><p>Toughness definately has a major effect on survivability over most raid pieces, the exception being if it has a major red adorn on it, or a ward/major proc</p></blockquote><p>Pants have a ward proc that actually has a chance to proc on all members of the group on a group heal,where as the PVP ward proc will only hit the healer on a group heal spell. The second I win my raid pants I will get rid of my PVP pants. Chest piece has an OLH over time..I'll be replacing my t8 PVP chest piece. Shoulders will be replaced as well. None of the PVP jewelery is worth having over raid jewelery for the most part. Once I get better PVE pieces,I'll be replacing all my PVP jewelery except Sanguine hoop. PVE gear is better than PVP gear in every way,except for toughness,which compared to the adornments and all the ward procs is well worth sacrificing.</p>

Dorsan
05-30-2010, 11:17 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pants have a ward proc that actually has a chance to proc on all members of the group on a group heal,where as the PVP ward proc will only hit the healer on a group heal spell. The second I win my raid pants I will get rid of my PVP pants. Chest piece has an OLH over time..I'll be replacing my t8 PVP chest piece. Shoulders will be replaced as well. None of the PVP jewelery is worth having over raid jewelery for the most part. Once I get better PVE pieces,I'll be replacing all my PVP jewelery except Sanguine hoop. PVE gear is better than PVP gear in every way,except for toughness,which compared to the adornments and all the ward procs is well worth sacrificing.</p></blockquote><p>Please let me know when you're in full PVE gear, I will want to fight you on regular basis. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I am very glad that you don't consider 40% toughness and 100% PvP crit mit worth having.</p>

Notsovilepriest
05-30-2010, 11:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree with you about damage being too low.</p><p>As a healer with 66-70% mitigation in PVP,I'm still getting hit by melee for alot of damage..scouts can still spike me down fast if I don't have taunts.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I burn down wardens with low toughness fast too. Your warden is in mixed t8-t9 gear with tons of pve pieces which makes it more vulnerable. But it's understandable if we consider how much you hop from character to character. My post was actually related to 2 people in full T9 PvP gear fighting eachother. If you go to that thread you'll see how I wrote that it is related to the PvP gear mostly.</p></blockquote><p>I have two pieces of the t8 PVP armor,and only because my raid gear hasn't dropped. Why am I wearing raid gear instead of PVP gear? Because it's better. Toughness,imo, doesn't make enough of a difference to sacrifice the better procs,and better adornments on the T9 Raid gear.</p></blockquote><p>Toughness definately has a major effect on survivability over most raid pieces, the exception being if it has a major red adorn on it, or a ward/major proc</p></blockquote><p>Pants have a ward proc that actually has a chance to proc on all members of the group on a group heal,where as the PVP ward proc will only hit the healer on a group heal spell. The second I win my raid pants I will get rid of my PVP pants. Chest piece has an OLH over time..I'll be replacing my t8 PVP chest piece. Shoulders will be replaced as well. None of the PVP jewelery is worth having over raid jewelery for the most part. Once I get better PVE pieces,I'll be replacing all my PVP jewelery except Sanguine hoop. PVE gear is better than PVP gear in every way,except for toughness,which compared to the adornments and all the ward procs is well worth sacrificing.</p></blockquote><p>I'm telling you, Even though I don't care enough to give my healers a ton of toughness over the raid gear they have, It does matter a lot more, but the group I run with a lot, I'm not playing my healers so I used tokens on other toons. Toughness off the chest, shoulders, forearms, and boots are worth more than the raid counterparts for healers atleast</p>

Stuckx
05-30-2010, 11:21 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pants have a ward proc that actually has a chance to proc on all members of the group on a group heal,where as the PVP ward proc will only hit the healer on a group heal spell. The second I win my raid pants I will get rid of my PVP pants. Chest piece has an OLH over time..I'll be replacing my t8 PVP chest piece. Shoulders will be replaced as well. None of the PVP jewelery is worth having over raid jewelery for the most part. Once I get better PVE pieces,I'll be replacing all my PVP jewelery except Sanguine hoop. PVE gear is better than PVP gear in every way,except for toughness,which compared to the adornments and all the ward procs is well worth sacrificing.</p></blockquote><p>Please let me know when you're in full PVE gear, I will want to fight you on regular basis. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I am very glad that you don't consider 40% toughness and 100% PvP crit mit worth having.</p></blockquote><p>I've fought plent of necro's and none of them can burn through my heals and ward procs..You being defensively spec'd I doubt you'll be able to kill me. On a side note,for all your defensively spec'd glory..I see 'Koppar has died' popping up quite often around WF towers.</p>

Stuckx
05-30-2010, 11:24 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I disagree with you about damage being too low.</p><p>As a healer with 66-70% mitigation in PVP,I'm still getting hit by melee for alot of damage..scouts can still spike me down fast if I don't have taunts.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I burn down wardens with low toughness fast too. Your warden is in mixed t8-t9 gear with tons of pve pieces which makes it more vulnerable. But it's understandable if we consider how much you hop from character to character. My post was actually related to 2 people in full T9 PvP gear fighting eachother. If you go to that thread you'll see how I wrote that it is related to the PvP gear mostly.</p></blockquote><p>I have two pieces of the t8 PVP armor,and only because my raid gear hasn't dropped. Why am I wearing raid gear instead of PVP gear? Because it's better. Toughness,imo, doesn't make enough of a difference to sacrifice the better procs,and better adornments on the T9 Raid gear.</p></blockquote><p>Toughness definately has a major effect on survivability over most raid pieces, the exception being if it has a major red adorn on it, or a ward/major proc</p></blockquote><p>Pants have a ward proc that actually has a chance to proc on all members of the group on a group heal,where as the PVP ward proc will only hit the healer on a group heal spell. The second I win my raid pants I will get rid of my PVP pants. Chest piece has an OLH over time..I'll be replacing my t8 PVP chest piece. Shoulders will be replaced as well. None of the PVP jewelery is worth having over raid jewelery for the most part. Once I get better PVE pieces,I'll be replacing all my PVP jewelery except Sanguine hoop. PVE gear is better than PVP gear in every way,except for toughness,which compared to the adornments and all the ward procs is well worth sacrificing.</p></blockquote><p>I'm telling you, Even though I don't care enough to give my healers a ton of toughness over the raid gear they have, It does matter a lot more, but the group I run with a lot, I'm not playing my healers so I used tokens on other toons. Toughness off the chest, shoulders, forearms, and boots are worth more than the raid counterparts for healers atleast</p></blockquote><p>I have 20% toughness right now,I'll never get any higher than that. At the very most,I'll sacrifice the raid breastplate for the T9 PVP one,since OLH isn't all that useful,and maybe 2-3 pieces of jeweler for the simple fact that there is only a handful of raid/instance jewelery pieces worth wearing. My toughness will probably drop to around 200-250,which is more than enough. I'd rather have five or six ward procs going off on my and my group,than an extra little bit of toughness.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
05-31-2010, 03:04 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pants have a ward proc that actually has a chance to proc on all members of the group on a group heal,where as the PVP ward proc will only hit the healer on a group heal spell. The second I win my raid pants I will get rid of my PVP pants. Chest piece has an OLH over time..I'll be replacing my t8 PVP chest piece. Shoulders will be replaced as well. None of the PVP jewelery is worth having over raid jewelery for the most part. Once I get better PVE pieces,I'll be replacing all my PVP jewelery except Sanguine hoop. PVE gear is better than PVP gear in every way,except for toughness,which compared to the adornments and all the ward procs is well worth sacrificing.</p></blockquote><p>Please let me know when you're in full PVE gear, I will want to fight you on regular basis. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I am very glad that you don't consider 40% toughness and 100% PvP crit mit worth having.</p></blockquote><p>I've fought plent of necro's and none of them can burn through my heals and ward procs..You being defensively spec'd I doubt you'll be able to kill me. On a side note,for all your defensively spec'd glory..I see 'Koppar has died' popping up quite often around WF towers.</p></blockquote><p>Hahah lol and how many times did I die against even numbers? And that is not pvp since it take about 5 min to render stuff in CL atm.</p>

Stuckx
05-31-2010, 03:40 AM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Pants have a ward proc that actually has a chance to proc on all members of the group on a group heal,where as the PVP ward proc will only hit the healer on a group heal spell. The second I win my raid pants I will get rid of my PVP pants. Chest piece has an OLH over time..I'll be replacing my t8 PVP chest piece. Shoulders will be replaced as well. None of the PVP jewelery is worth having over raid jewelery for the most part. Once I get better PVE pieces,I'll be replacing all my PVP jewelery except Sanguine hoop. PVE gear is better than PVP gear in every way,except for toughness,which compared to the adornments and all the ward procs is well worth sacrificing.</p></blockquote><p>Please let me know when you're in full PVE gear, I will want to fight you on regular basis. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I am very glad that you don't consider 40% toughness and 100% PvP crit mit worth having.</p></blockquote><p>I've fought plent of necro's and none of them can burn through my heals and ward procs..You being defensively spec'd I doubt you'll be able to kill me. On a side note,for all your defensively spec'd glory..I see 'Koppar has died' popping up quite often around WF towers.</p></blockquote><p>Hahah lol and how many times did I die against even numbers? And that is not pvp since it take about 5 min to render stuff in CL atm.</p></blockquote><p>Not PVP for freeport,but if your qeynos..it's an easy fifteen tokens and whatever writs you finish off the freeport people out there. Once the Qeynos zerg comes in and lags everyone out with their mass numbers,just a bunch of free writ updates.</p>

Blambil
05-31-2010, 04:07 PM
<p><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; color: #ffffff; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">At the end of the day:</span></p><div><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">any class can get 80% spell avoidance and 80% spell dmg reduction.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">a summoner cannot get 80% melee avoidance and 80% melee mitigation.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">until that imbalance is resolved, not much else matters..</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">what then?</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">most class CA's can be cast on the run</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">most dmg spells CANNOT be cast on the run.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">until that imbalance is resolved, root/snare/etc doesn't really matter.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </p></div></span></p>

Notsovilepriest
05-31-2010, 04:10 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #ffffff;"><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">At the end of the day:</span></p><div><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">any class can get 80% spell avoidance and 80% spell dmg reduction.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">a summoner cannot get 80% melee avoidance and 80% melee mitigation.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">until that imbalance is resolved, not much else matters..</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">what then?</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">most class CA's can be cast on the run</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">most dmg spells CANNOT be cast on the run.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">until that imbalance is resolved, root/snare/etc doesn't really matter.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </p></div></span></p></blockquote><p>You leave out, CA's and Auto attack have a much much shorter range than spells also. I was playing my dads in WoE Level gear Conj and the only person beating me in the 6 v 6 and 12 v 12 was a raid geared ranger and dirge....I don't see what the complaining is about.</p>

Dorsan
05-31-2010, 09:48 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #ffffff;"><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">At the end of the day:</span></p><div><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">any class can get 80% spell avoidance and 80% spell dmg reduction.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">a summoner cannot get 80% melee avoidance and 80% melee mitigation.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">until that imbalance is resolved, not much else matters..</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">what then?</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">most class CA's can be cast on the run</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">most dmg spells CANNOT be cast on the run.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">until that imbalance is resolved, root/snare/etc doesn't really matter.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </p></div></span></p></blockquote><p>At the end of the day:</p><p>no class can still influence the outcome of the game WHILE stunned/stiffled/mezzed</p><p>a summoner can use pet spells WHILE stunned/stiffled/mezzed</p><p>until that imbalance is resolved, not much else matters...</p><p>what then?</p><p>most dmg spells can be cast from a distance</p><p>most CA's CANNOT be cast from a distance</p><p>until that imbalance is resolved, poisons/melee damage/etc doesn't really matter.</p>

Stuckx
05-31-2010, 11:10 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #ffffff;"><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">At the end of the day:</span></p><div><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">any class can get 80% spell avoidance and 80% spell dmg reduction.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">a summoner cannot get 80% melee avoidance and 80% melee mitigation.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">until that imbalance is resolved, not much else matters..</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">what then?</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">most class CA's can be cast on the run</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">most dmg spells CANNOT be cast on the run.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">until that imbalance is resolved, root/snare/etc doesn't really matter.</span></p><p style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> </p></div></span></p></blockquote><p>At the end of the day:</p><p>no class can still influence the outcome of the game WHILE stunned/stiffled/mezzed</p><p>a summoner can use pet spells WHILE stunned/stiffled/mezzed</p><p>until that imbalance is resolved, not much else matters...</p><p> <span style="color: #ff6600;">Has nothing to do with summoners being unable to get 80% mitigation or 80% avoidance,and pets(even though their damage at this point is so minimal it doesn't make much difference) can be CC'd just like everything else in the game.</span></p><p>what then?</p><p>most dmg spells can be cast from a distance</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Which is how it's supposed to be.Mage's are supposed to keep distance because we are squishy,problem is,this is very hard to do when pretty much every other class in the game has a snare/root to counter our own.</span></p><p>most CA's CANNOT be cast from a distance</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">And what's your point? Melee damage is melee for a reason,your supposed to be in range. Mages are supposed to cast at range..that's one of the defining points between the two classes. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Combine CA's and auto attacks from the melee classes,and they are a much more logical choice if you want to succeed in PVP. Since their auto attacks hit harder than 60% of any mage's spells,and don't require the scout to cast them..a scout is going to be far more effective than a mage in PVP with half the effort.</span></p><p>until that imbalance is resolved, poisons/melee damage/etc doesn't really matter.</p></blockquote>

Dorsan
05-31-2010, 11:27 PM
The fact is, that all those points made absolutely no sense, much like Blambils points. First of all his data was completely incorrect, because the mitigation against spells is capped at 75% in PvP and people do not outright resist 80% of the cast spells. In fact I avoid more melee attacks than get my spells resisted. And if you do avoid a melee attack it still goes to the cooldown for the scout while we can immediately recast a resisted spell. Either way there is absolutely nothing wrong with summoners. A summoner in full PvP gear has equal chances in fighting any other class in full PvP gear. The problems come when you try and fight a better geared player on your summoner. And that is a situation that can be fully remedied by the player. From all the people I have fought in battlegrounds or in open world PvP there are 2-3 that seems hard to defeat 1on1 with my necro and even they aren't unkillable, just tough. Compared to things in T8 I'd say summoners got quite a boost in fact.

Stuckx
05-31-2010, 11:34 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The fact is, that all those points made absolutely no sense, much like Blambils points. First of all his data was completely incorrect, because the mitigation against spells is capped at 75% in PvP and people do not outright resist 80% of the cast spells. In fact I avoid more melee attacks than get my spells resisted. And if you do avoid a melee attack it still goes to the cooldown for the scout while we can immediately recast a resisted spell. Either way there is absolutely nothing wrong with summoners. A summoner in full PvP gear has equal chances in fighting any other class in full PvP gear. The problems come when you try and fight a better geared player on your summoner. And that is a situation that can be fully remedied by the player. From all the people I have fought in battlegrounds or in open world PvP there are 2-3 that seems hard to defeat 1on1 with my necro and even they aren't unkillable, just tough. Compared to things in T8 I'd say summoners got quite a boost in fact.</blockquote><p>Maybe as a necro,with lifetaps that heal for 2k,and 1k worth of heals on pretty much every spell cast..but not for a conjuror,who can't heal at all. Conjurors still need help. They still go down faster than any other class in PVP,and they still put out poor DPS that doesn't compensate for lack of survivability.</p><p>I've said it a thousand times,and I'll say it again.</p><p>Anyone who brings a conjuror over a scout for DPS in a PVP group is a [Removed for Content].Plain and simple. The scout will DPS better than the conjuror every single time,no exceptions. People will actually die from the scouts burst DPS,while they will just shrug off the conjurors sustained,but extremely low DPS.</p><p>And don't feed me that 'but conjurors aren't tier 1 DPS like scouts' bullcrap. If my conjuror wasn't T1 DPS,I wouldn't be topping the parse on him. There is no T1-T2 DPS anymore.</p>

Dorsan
05-31-2010, 11:51 PM
At some point conjurors and necros has to differ. I can offer info about the points we share similarities but where the similarities end, I don't know what hapens. The fact is, lifetaps aren't even our major heals anymore. With transfer life I crit selfheal for 7K in PvP once every 6 seconds. That spell plus lifetap keeps a constant 1.5k HPS going on for necros and with the added physical mitigation from the last GU it makes you feel like a tank - unless you have 2 good or 4-5 average people beating on you. Additionally you have Bloodcloud and Animist transference if the 1.5k just doesn't cut it and the 2 tinkered heal items as emergency heals.

Chia_Pet
06-01-2010, 01:07 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the amount of ego you have sir is blinding (mostly your self).</p></blockquote><p>How about you stop insulting people?</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> summoners the new crusader?   when resist where broken i was one shoting summoners (specially necros) on my wiz and assassin.  </p></blockquote><p>You were also one shoting crusagers on your wiz and assassin. And necros were able to stun anyone and kill them before the 5 second stun was over. It was enough to send pet to attack, cast 1 Bloodcoil and 1 Bewilderment for people to be dead. And with Elemental Toxicity you could cast Pandemic, Bloodcloud and the AE spell from Siphoning of the Souls and whole groups just died.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  1. you're clueless to the ACTUAL needs of summoners in BG's.</p></blockquote><p>You sir are in wrong forum. This is PvP section and -not- BG section.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>  2. 3/5 of your post is about GENERAL survivability for ANY class yet you post it to summoners?</blockquote><p>I listed everything I could remember to help with survivability to help people who have problems. While you for some reason see this as a personal insult to yourself - which is clear from your inappropriate behaviour - this post was intended to help people.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  3. you offer BAD advice for BG since a defensive build using a tank pet is almost useless and before you try to argue that:</p>  you're own egotistical video proves you, YOURSELF don't use a tank pet or the defensive build you OFFER others since that build is USELESS when using a MAGE pet.</blockquote><p>You are not only in the wrong section, you also ignore what people write to you. The video was posted in the BG section and this is in PvP section. In BG section I wrote that people should read this because it has -some- information relevant to BGs and I was hoping that people will be smart enough to see where BG and PvP are different and what to adjust. You are not only using arguments that have nothing to do with the topic, you also keep ignoring the answers you get and then repeat your original argument. Here is my original answer to your original post which you ignored and wrote a new set of insults instead.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote> granted in a real PvP server a tank pet might grant you a small advantage but in BG were all players are ready and alert to attack the tank does nothing more then provide a quick annoyence before the summoner get's ripped apart.</blockquote><p>Hence this is in PvP forum not in Battlegrounds forum. But the survivability build is mostly still relevant in BG too.</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> this guy has no clue what he's talking about as far as necro goes either.    your points are correct for BOTH summoner.</p></blockquote><p>Can you point out which part of the OP was incorrect and why? Because as it is you are just flaming.</p></blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> please fail moar.</p></blockquote><p>Are you capable of producing arguments too, or you think throwing random insults helps your case?</p><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> summoners need some type of PERSONA (non-pet specific) survivability abilities that is what the class needs to be balanced with other casters.</p><p> necros need a break on the health PENALTIES in PvP settings.</p><p> if you dont agree with those then you don't know what you're talking about and thus should not be posting "advice".</p></blockquote><p>Summoners are a pet class and need to be based on pet abilities. While it might be harder to work around that - it is the nature of the class. Yes, I see there are some classes that are easier than summoners, and there are some classes that have godlike abilities (berserker anyone?) - but most of them are getting the nerf bat soon anyway. As it stands now, it is impossible for any healer to kill a decently geared necro 1on1. In TSO a good healer had a chance - in fact there were some I couldn't kill even once, but now with Potency, Crit chance and Crit bonus affecting our heals they can't outdps our selfheals as it is. You are capable of killing any tank class and any mage class without any problems as a summoner. I don't have any problems with bards either. We do have survivability issues against 4 scout types, but that comes from the nature of their damage. We also have issues with drag and constant knockbacks, but so do all classes that depend on casting for their survivability and we have the added advantage of using the pet even while we are disabled. But completely balancing thins is impossible. If you tone down the scout damage they will do no damage to classes with higher mitigation and if you improve our defenses we will be unkillable by any other class. Our dps can't be improved much either, because spell damage is the same against all classes. So if you make us instant killers tanks will be unable to do their job - as anyone could see before the spell resist fix - because as soon as they taunt, they are dead. And from next expansion we are getting a slight DPS boost, while Shadowstep and the Berserker selfheal is getting nerfed. I feel that is enough for us. You can disagree, but if you continue using insults instead of arguments, I will ignore your posts.</p></blockquote><p>The last part of this post was probably the most intelligent thought out response ive seen in years. it also shows someon that knows his class and knows the mechanics of how nobody should have the power of owning every class.</p><p>look some classes are tougher to kill, and as pointed out if you go changing things it affects EVERYONE in some way shape or form. and he has done an EXCELLENT job of pointing out those things.</p><p>maybe adding a bit taunt strength to pets would help so they dont get resisted, but honestly making more spike damage will do just as he said, through everything out of whack.</p>

Chia_Pet
06-01-2010, 01:17 AM
<p>Oh and lets just put this out there.</p><p>of all the character types, mage types arent supposed to be the survivors....</p><p>maybe play like you are a clothy, fear getting killed like a clothy and do what you gotta do to live like a clothy and you might succeed.</p><p>everyone cant be a tank, and nothing is more annoying then watching a caster stand toe to toe with a fully plated tank. its stupid.</p><p>you guys need to keep tanks(like me) away from you, time your CC's to keep us away, use a tank pet to taunt us( it does work btw, nothing more annoying then starting a cast thinking i was on the caster when at the last second his pet taunt me on him and it gets wasted on the pet)</p>

Stuckx
06-01-2010, 01:46 AM
<p><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh and lets just put this out there.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">of all the character types, mage types arent supposed to be the survivors....</span></p><p>maybe play like you are a clothy, fear getting killed like a clothy and do what you gotta do to live like a clothy and you might succeed.</p><p>everyone cant be a tank, and nothing is more annoying then watching a caster stand toe to toe with a fully plated tank. its stupid.</p><p>you guys need to keep tanks(like me) away from you, time your CC's to keep us away, use a tank pet to taunt us( it does work btw, nothing more annoying then starting a cast thinking i was on the caster when at the last second his pet taunt me on him and it gets wasted on the pet)</p></blockquote><p>Exactly,and we know this. The problem is,we're supposed to trade survivability for big DPS. Currently,that's not the case. Conjurors trade survivability and get nothing in return. We're still squishy and do terrible DPS. Scouts have excellent survivability,and do massive burst DPS, and half of their DPS doesn't even require them to do anything(auto attack).</p><p>Point being,Conjurors get shafted. We get poor survivability,and poor DPS. The class is broken when there is absolutely no reason you would bring it to a PVP group when you could bring a scout and get better DPS,and better survivability.</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 01:51 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh and lets just put this out there.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">of all the character types, mage types arent supposed to be the survivors....</span></p><p>maybe play like you are a clothy, fear getting killed like a clothy and do what you gotta do to live like a clothy and you might succeed.</p><p>everyone cant be a tank, and nothing is more annoying then watching a caster stand toe to toe with a fully plated tank. its stupid.</p><p>you guys need to keep tanks(like me) away from you, time your CC's to keep us away, use a tank pet to taunt us( it does work btw, nothing more annoying then starting a cast thinking i was on the caster when at the last second his pet taunt me on him and it gets wasted on the pet)</p></blockquote><p>Exactly,and we know this. The problem is,we're supposed to trade survivability for big DPS. Currently,that's not the case. Conjurors trade survivability and get nothing in return. We're still squishy and do terrible DPS. Scouts have excellent survivability,and do massive burst DPS, and half of their DPS doesn't even require them to do anything(auto attack).</p><p>Point being,Conjurors get shafted. We get poor survivability,and poor DPS. The class is broken when there is absolutely no reason you would bring it to a PVP group when you could bring a scout and get better DPS,and better survivability.</p></blockquote><p>How come when I played an Undergeared conj in 90 BGs, I would beat everyone DPS wise except a really well geared ranger and dirge and not die more than 1-2 times per round? I saw nothing wrong with the class at all...</p>

Stuckx
06-01-2010, 01:59 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh and lets just put this out there.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">of all the character types, mage types arent supposed to be the survivors....</span></p><p>maybe play like you are a clothy, fear getting killed like a clothy and do what you gotta do to live like a clothy and you might succeed.</p><p>everyone cant be a tank, and nothing is more annoying then watching a caster stand toe to toe with a fully plated tank. its stupid.</p><p>you guys need to keep tanks(like me) away from you, time your CC's to keep us away, use a tank pet to taunt us( it does work btw, nothing more annoying then starting a cast thinking i was on the caster when at the last second his pet taunt me on him and it gets wasted on the pet)</p></blockquote><p>Exactly,and we know this. The problem is,we're supposed to trade survivability for big DPS. Currently,that's not the case. Conjurors trade survivability and get nothing in return. We're still squishy and do terrible DPS. Scouts have excellent survivability,and do massive burst DPS, and half of their DPS doesn't even require them to do anything(auto attack).</p><p>Point being,Conjurors get shafted. We get poor survivability,and poor DPS. The class is broken when there is absolutely no reason you would bring it to a PVP group when you could bring a scout and get better DPS,and better survivability.</p></blockquote><p>How come when I played an Undergeared conj in 90 BGs, I would beat everyone DPS wise except a really well geared ranger and dirge and not die more than 1-2 times per round? I saw nothing wrong with the class at all...</p></blockquote><p>Probably because everyone else sucked. Any scout class should have no problem out DPSing a conjuror,and if they don't..then they need to reroll.</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 02:14 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh and lets just put this out there.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">of all the character types, mage types arent supposed to be the survivors....</span></p><p>maybe play like you are a clothy, fear getting killed like a clothy and do what you gotta do to live like a clothy and you might succeed.</p><p>everyone cant be a tank, and nothing is more annoying then watching a caster stand toe to toe with a fully plated tank. its stupid.</p><p>you guys need to keep tanks(like me) away from you, time your CC's to keep us away, use a tank pet to taunt us( it does work btw, nothing more annoying then starting a cast thinking i was on the caster when at the last second his pet taunt me on him and it gets wasted on the pet)</p></blockquote><p>Exactly,and we know this. The problem is,we're supposed to trade survivability for big DPS. Currently,that's not the case. Conjurors trade survivability and get nothing in return. We're still squishy and do terrible DPS. Scouts have excellent survivability,and do massive burst DPS, and half of their DPS doesn't even require them to do anything(auto attack).</p><p>Point being,Conjurors get shafted. We get poor survivability,and poor DPS. The class is broken when there is absolutely no reason you would bring it to a PVP group when you could bring a scout and get better DPS,and better survivability.</p></blockquote><p>How come when I played an Undergeared conj in 90 BGs, I would beat everyone DPS wise except a really well geared ranger and dirge and not die more than 1-2 times per round? I saw nothing wrong with the class at all...</p></blockquote><p>Probably because everyone else sucked. Any scout class should have no problem out DPSing a conjuror,and if they don't..then they need to reroll.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, Over 10 BGs and everyone else sucked and I couldn't just be doing good, That could never be, since I was playing a conj</p>

Stuckx
06-01-2010, 02:21 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh and lets just put this out there.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">of all the character types, mage types arent supposed to be the survivors....</span></p><p>maybe play like you are a clothy, fear getting killed like a clothy and do what you gotta do to live like a clothy and you might succeed.</p><p>everyone cant be a tank, and nothing is more annoying then watching a caster stand toe to toe with a fully plated tank. its stupid.</p><p>you guys need to keep tanks(like me) away from you, time your CC's to keep us away, use a tank pet to taunt us( it does work btw, nothing more annoying then starting a cast thinking i was on the caster when at the last second his pet taunt me on him and it gets wasted on the pet)</p></blockquote><p>Exactly,and we know this. The problem is,we're supposed to trade survivability for big DPS. Currently,that's not the case. Conjurors trade survivability and get nothing in return. We're still squishy and do terrible DPS. Scouts have excellent survivability,and do massive burst DPS, and half of their DPS doesn't even require them to do anything(auto attack).</p><p>Point being,Conjurors get shafted. We get poor survivability,and poor DPS. The class is broken when there is absolutely no reason you would bring it to a PVP group when you could bring a scout and get better DPS,and better survivability.</p></blockquote><p>How come when I played an Undergeared conj in 90 BGs, I would beat everyone DPS wise except a really well geared ranger and dirge and not die more than 1-2 times per round? I saw nothing wrong with the class at all...</p></blockquote><p>Probably because everyone else sucked. Any scout class should have no problem out DPSing a conjuror,and if they don't..then they need to reroll.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, Over 10 BGs and everyone else sucked and I couldn't just be doing good, That could never be, since I was playing a conj</p></blockquote><p>Considering you're playing an undergeared conj,and the fact that it isn't your main and your not as experienced on it as other people at their mains,yes. Any scout that isn't a complete noob would have no problem out parsing a summoner.</p>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 04:33 AM
<p><cite><span style="color: #999999;">[email protected] wrote:</span></cite><span style="color: #999999;"></span></p><blockquote><span style="color: #999999;">The fact is, that all those points made absolutely no sense, much like Blambils points. First of all his data was completely incorrect, because the mitigation against spells is capped at 75% in PvP and people do not outright resist 80% of the cast spells. In fact I avoid more melee attacks than get my spells resisted. And if you do avoid a melee attack it still goes to the cooldown for the scout while we can immediately recast a resisted spell. </span></blockquote><p>Dorsan's right about one thing, forgot about the 5% offset for PVP.. So instead it's a 75% chance to outright resist, and if that fails, 75% reduction in damage. STILL impossible for a summoner to get 75% melee avoidance, and 75% melee mitigation...</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=474221">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=474221</a></p><p><span style="color: #999999;">Quote "...</span><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><span style="color: #999999;">Based on the old formulas, extremely high resists (if capped) would give players a 75% chance to avoid a spell AND a 75% reduction in the damage when it landed....."</span></span></p><p>And come on, Dorsan, be honest.. LOTS of CA's can be used from beyond immediate melee Range... anything requiring, say, a bow, as just one example? Hell, bow AUTOATTACK works from range.. no CA required..</p><p><cite><span style="color: #999999;">[email protected] wrote:</span></cite><span style="color: #999999;"></span></p><blockquote><span style="color: #999999;">A summoner in full PvP gear has equal chances in fighting any other class in full PvP gear</span></blockquote><p>Not even close to true.. that's what this entire thread is about...</p>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 04:35 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How come when I played an Undergeared conj in 90 BGs, I would beat everyone DPS wise except a really well geared ranger and dirge and not die more than 1-2 times per round? I saw nothing wrong with the class at all...</p></blockquote><p>Because the complaint isn't about DPS.. it's about survivability.. If a group is keeping you alive.. great..  but you lack the BURST dmg to win most 1:1 fights before you're dead.... </p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 04:36 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh and lets just put this out there.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">of all the character types, mage types arent supposed to be the survivors....</span></p><p>maybe play like you are a clothy, fear getting killed like a clothy and do what you gotta do to live like a clothy and you might succeed.</p><p>everyone cant be a tank, and nothing is more annoying then watching a caster stand toe to toe with a fully plated tank. its stupid.</p><p>you guys need to keep tanks(like me) away from you, time your CC's to keep us away, use a tank pet to taunt us( it does work btw, nothing more annoying then starting a cast thinking i was on the caster when at the last second his pet taunt me on him and it gets wasted on the pet)</p></blockquote><p>Exactly,and we know this. The problem is,we're supposed to trade survivability for big DPS. Currently,that's not the case. Conjurors trade survivability and get nothing in return. We're still squishy and do terrible DPS. Scouts have excellent survivability,and do massive burst DPS, and half of their DPS doesn't even require them to do anything(auto attack).</p><p>Point being,Conjurors get shafted. We get poor survivability,and poor DPS. The class is broken when there is absolutely no reason you would bring it to a PVP group when you could bring a scout and get better DPS,and better survivability.</p></blockquote><p>How come when I played an Undergeared conj in 90 BGs, I would beat everyone DPS wise except a really well geared ranger and dirge and not die more than 1-2 times per round? I saw nothing wrong with the class at all...</p></blockquote><p>Probably because everyone else sucked. Any scout class should have no problem out DPSing a conjuror,and if they don't..then they need to reroll.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, Over 10 BGs and everyone else sucked and I couldn't just be doing good, That could never be, since I was playing a conj</p></blockquote><p>Considering you're playing an undergeared conj,and the fact that it isn't your main and your not as experienced on it as other people at their mains,yes. Any scout that isn't a complete noob would have no problem out parsing a summoner.</p></blockquote><p>Or, It could be the fact that someone that actually understands mechanics and everything will do decent with a class, if they put the effort in, but you would never give me credit for that.</p>

Dorsan
06-01-2010, 04:37 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #999999;">Quote "...</span><span style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #999999;">Based on the old formulas, extremely high resists (if capped) would give players a 75% chance to avoid a spell AND a 75% reduction in the damage when it landed....."</span></span></p></blockquote><p>Are you seriously claiming that 75% of your spells gets resisted? I mean, seriously you come here, and write that with straight face? How!?!?</p><p>edit: yeah i know it's a dev quote but it is related to an old system of equations that are not in use anymore. And even if God himself would come here and tell me that people resist 75% of summoner spells, I would laugh at it because I have tons of parses that shows my actual hit rate.</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 04:39 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How come when I played an Undergeared conj in 90 BGs, I would beat everyone DPS wise except a really well geared ranger and dirge and not die more than 1-2 times per round? I saw nothing wrong with the class at all...</p></blockquote><p>Because the complaint isn't about DPS.. it's about survivability.. If a group is keeping you alive.. great..  but you lack the BURST dmg to win most 1:1 fights before you're dead.... </p></blockquote><p>Darkenn complains about DPS, Survivability, Utility of summoners</p>

Stuckx
06-01-2010, 04:42 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>How come when I played an Undergeared conj in 90 BGs, I would beat everyone DPS wise except a really well geared ranger and dirge and not die more than 1-2 times per round? I saw nothing wrong with the class at all...</p></blockquote><p>Because the complaint isn't about DPS.. it's about survivability.. If a group is keeping you alive.. great..  but you lack the BURST dmg to win most 1:1 fights before you're dead.... </p></blockquote><p>Darkenn complains about DPS, Survivability, Utility of summoners</p></blockquote><p>Because they are lacking in all three area's,though I could care less about the utility. Scouts do more DPS than summoners in PVP,Fact. Scouts also survive ten times better than summoners in PVP,fact. When there is absolutely no reason to play one class,because another can do everything that class is supposed to do,only much better..then one of those classes is broken.</p>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 04:50 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #999999;">Quote "...</span><span style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #999999;">Based on the old formulas, extremely high resists (if capped) would give players a 75% chance to avoid a spell AND a 75% reduction in the damage when it landed....."</span></span></p></blockquote><p>Are you seriously claiming that 75% of your spells gets resisted? I mean, seriously you come here, and write that with straight face? How!?!?</p><p>edit: yeah i know it's a dev quote but it is related to an old system of equations that are not in use anymore. And even if God himself would come here and tell me that people resist 75% of summoner spells, I would laugh at it because I have tons of parses that shows my actual hit rate.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty good chance you're not going up against someone with 75%+ resists of your type (Elemental for Conj, Nox for Necro).. try it yourself... buy the crazy brellium set, go elemental, laugh at wizards.. It's fun..  I actually got Ice Comet'd on my healer for.... 254 dmg today... no wards, no absorbs... just 254 dmg from an ice comet.</p>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 04:57 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>edit: yeah i know it's a dev quote but it is related to an old system of equations that are not in use anymore. And even if God himself would come here and tell me that people resist 75% of summoner spells, I would laugh at it because I have tons of parses that shows my actual hit rate.</p></blockquote><p>Not in use any more?? no, the updated version is even BETTER!!</p><p>Quote<span style="color: #888888;">: "</span><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"><strong><span style="color: #888888;">PVP</span></strong></span></p><ul><li><span style="color: #888888;">Removed legacy mults that reduced player spell avoidance and resist amounts as they were making the new formulas less effective. Overall, players should see their resists be more effective vs spells"</span></li></ul><p>(Same thread btw, quoting patch notes)</p>

Dorsan
06-01-2010, 05:06 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #999999;">Quote "...</span><span style="font-family: verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #999999;">Based on the old formulas, extremely high resists (if capped) would give players a 75% chance to avoid a spell AND a 75% reduction in the damage when it landed....."</span></span></p></blockquote><p>Are you seriously claiming that 75% of your spells gets resisted? I mean, seriously you come here, and write that with straight face? How!?!?</p><p>edit: yeah i know it's a dev quote but it is related to an old system of equations that are not in use anymore. And even if God himself would come here and tell me that people resist 75% of summoner spells, I would laugh at it because I have tons of parses that shows my actual hit rate.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty good chance you're not going up against someone with 75%+ resists of your type (Elemental for Conj, Nox for Necro).. try it yourself... buy the crazy brellium set, go elemental, laugh at wizards.. It's fun..  I actually got Ice Comet'd on my healer for.... 254 dmg today... no wards, no absorbs... just 254 dmg from an ice comet.</p></blockquote><p>What are you exactly talking about? You said people have 75% chance to outright resist a spell. I said that is impossible and then you come back with an answer talking about the 75% spell damage mitigation? Those are 2 completely different things.</p><p>I never said people with good gear don't have 75% spell mitigation, that is completely true - so please don't argue against points I never made.</p><p>What I do claim is that we do avoid more CA's than get our spells resisted.</p><p>You claimed that 80% of all spells also gets resisted. Your original claim was in fact that 80% of spells get resisted and then which don't get resisted get mitigated by 80%. Which then reduces our effective DPS to 4%. While in fact 75% of our damage is mitigated and no more than 10% gets resisted, which then reduces our DPS to 22.5% by worst case scenario calculations.</p><p>However our spell damage is increased by 15% in last GU so that brings it back to 25.875% of its original value.</p><p>In comparation we easily get to 25% real PvP avoidance and mitigate scout DPS by 65% (can do more with 100% defensive gear). If you calculate that, scouts are doing 26.25% of their original damage. And we have pets with taunts and superior cc abilities compared to scouts (with exception being bards - but they lack the DPS to kill us anyway).</p>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 11:24 AM
<p>Dorsan:</p><p>You know it's far more complex than a simple number; we haven't even started talking about disruption versus resists, compared to weapon skill versus physical avoidance/mitigation.</p><p>Sony could level the playing field:</p><p>1. Make physical resistance another resist, like magical.</p><p>2. Set the physical resist cap the same as magical (lower it to something like 50%)</p><p>3. Make it just as easy for ALL classes to raise their PHYSICAL resists as their MAGICAL resists</p><p>3b. brellium set that gives 7500 to PHYSICAL resists as well..</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

Dorsan
06-01-2010, 11:47 AM
You are mixing up resists and mitigation. While those 2 stats were connected in TSO, they are completely separated in SF. Spell mitigation - a stat that is dependent on your "resists" values (which are in fact mitigation values in SF) Physical mitigation - a stat that is dependent on your mitigation value Spell resists - a value that is affected by your STA and the spell skill of the person casting the skill Avoidance - a value that is affected by your AGI, defence, parrying, etc and the melee skills of the attacker (although the uncontested avoidance is only dependant on your stats and cant be influenced by the attacker) And no, mastercrafted gear will not be enough for you to win a fight against fabled geared scout, mage, tank or healer regardless of the class you are playing.

Blambil
06-01-2010, 01:01 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You are mixing up resists and mitigation. While those 2 stats were connected in TSO, they are completely separated in SF. </blockquote><p>I'm not mixing up the two, I'm saying that Melee "avoidance" and Spell "avoidance" should have the same chance and caps.. They don't. I'm saying that melee resists and spell resists should be equally easy to raise. They are NOT. Spell resists and avoidance can both be capped with mastercrafted gear.</p><p>Again:</p><p>Any class can get  75% spell AVOIDANCE and 75% spell MITIGATION. Most casters (and to be more specific Summoners) can NOT get 75% melee avoidance, and 75% melee mitigation.</p><p>Look at it this way... Take a scout and a summoner. Assume for a second they have the same ability to burst dmg, and the same dmg output over a 30,60,90 second period of time.</p><p>The scout has 75% spell avoidance and 75% spell mitigation. The summoner  has 50% melee avoidance and 50% melee mitigation (Generous and takes some serious gear).</p><p>From the start, the summoner is destined to lose. Don't argue crap like "utility" or "crowd control". Scouts can taunt, stun, stifle, mez, root, snare as well.. all the things that might help the mage live are now being used against the mage.  It's like doing fractions... "Same on both sides? Cross it off".</p><p>In the end you're left with 75% on one side, and 50% on the other. The deck is stacked.</p>

Dorsan
06-01-2010, 01:08 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Any class can get  75% spell AVOIDANCE</p></blockquote><p>At this point the discussion is over. Parse your own hit rates and then parse the scouts hit rates on yourself. Actual spell avoidance in PvP is much lower than actual melee avoidance. Claiming anything else is simply not true.</p><p>edit: found something else that is funny in your post</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The scout has 75% spell avoidance and 75% spell mitigation. The summoner  has 50% melee avoidance and 50% melee mitigation (Generous and takes some serious gear).</p></blockquote><p>How many times do I need to tell you. With my BG/PvP gear (which is easily obtainable by anyone with minimum time invested) I have 65% melee mitigation and 51% avoidance (around 70% avoidance if you count pet avoidance as well, and yes I use tank pet). The figures you are pulling out are only valid for summoners in very very low end gear.</p>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 01:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Any class can get  75% spell AVOIDANCE</p></blockquote><p>At this point the discussion is over. Parse your own hit rates and then parse the scouts hit rates on yourself. Actual spell avoidance in PvP is much lower than actual melee avoidance. Claiming anything else is simply not true.</p></blockquote><p>At this point, burden of proof falls on both sides. Make sure when you post your results you include your disruption/gear/etc, and the level/gear of your target.</p><p>regardless of whether you are right or wrong about avoidance, we still have to deal with the 75/50 difference in MITIGATION, both in the caps, and in the ease/difficulty in hitting those caps.</p><p>That's been my point all alone, the deck is double-stacked against us, both avoidance and mitigation.</p>

Dorsan
06-01-2010, 01:33 PM
<p>I don't understand why am I the one that needs to constantly post proof about my claims, but here is the hit rate of my spells:</p><p><img src="http://h.imagehost.org/0534/spell-hit.jpg" width="928" height="585" /></p><p>This is from my last BG game, I didn't check my opponents gear, but it was against 6 people, so we can say they had varioius levels of gear. I know for a fact that 2 of them were in full PvP gear, no idea about the other 4. I am also in PvP gear with disruption at 504 (which you can get even in MC gear with the +spell skill adornments). As you can see, some of the pet CA's were avoided, and ACT doesn't work well with taunts, so they all show as avoided. But you can also see that all of the spells that I have cast had 100% hit rate. At some rare cases some of my spells go down to 95% hit rate, but never below that.</p>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 02:37 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't understand why am I the one that needs to constantly post proof about my claims, but here is the hit rate of my spells:</p></blockquote><p>Because you're the only summoner posting on here, saying everything is fine.....</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This is from my last BG game, I didn't check my opponents gear, but it was against 6 people, so we can say they had varioius levels of gear. I know for a fact that 2 of them were in full PvP gear, no idea about the other 4. I am also in PvP gear with disruption at 504 (which you can get even in MC gear with the +spell skill adornments). As you can see, some of the pet CA's were avoided, and ACT doesn't work well with taunts, so they all show as avoided. But you can also see that all of the spells that I have cast had 100% hit rate. At some rare cases some of my spells go down to 95% hit rate, but never below that.</p></blockquote><p>So according to ACT, you averaged a 12% outright resist rate. well done.  (of course that includes things like the pets self-refreshing wards, Heal Servent, Sacrifice, Empower Servent, manasone, potions, etc.. all of which are never resisted). I'm not sure how accurate it is, but there it is.. Thank you.</p><p>I parsed the last 28 matches (as far back as my log goes since I rolled it a week or so ago), and found some interesting numbers..</p><p>According to my ACT, over the last 28  matches, I've averaged a 91.81% hit rate..  (including the same self-buffs/heals/etc as yours does, so that's not a "real" number, but it's a start..). btw, I have 540 disruption, which may be why my resist rates are lower than yours.</p><p>(I'm going to spend some time with grep, pulling out all the "self" buff stuff, and see how much closer I can get on a real resist rate, but may not be possible..)</p><p>Anyway, here's my comparable list for outbound dmg:</p><blockquote><span style="font-size: xx-small; font-family: courier new,courier;">TYPE                      DAMAGE     EXT DPS  AVERAGE   MIN HIT  MAX HIT  RESIST      HITS    CRIT %  SWINGS  TO HIT % All                       3,305,184  340.32   310.87    0        6,115    All         10,632  69%     11,581  91.81    Fiery Annihilation        450,384    46.37    232.04    0        1,454    heat        1,941   98%     1,944   99.85    Earthquake                438,543    45.15    1,198.21  0        3,889    magic       366     99%     405     90.37    Pestilential Rain         367,851    37.88    755.34    0        1,272    disease     487     0%      601     81.03    Shattered Earth           301,364    31.03    260.47    0        987      magic       1,157   100%    1,189   97.31    Crystal Blast             286,108    29.46    752.92    0        2,615    magic       380     98%     416     91.35    Ice Storm                 173,318    17.85    543.32    0        1,425    cold        319     99%     357     89.36    Wildfire                  149,705    15.41    984.90    0        1,605    heat        152     0%      199     76.38    Petrify                   104,124    10.72    913.37    0        2,129    magic       114     100%    144     79.17    Greater Rune of Blasting  87,655     9.03     500.89    0        661      magic       175     0%      242     72.31    Winds of Velious          64,383     6.63     173.54    0        839      cold        371     95%     383     96.87    Elemental Toxicity        39,609     4.08     34.18     0        214      heat        1,159   100%    1,159   100.00   Inferno                   33,250     3.42     59.69     0        306      heat        557     0%      606     91.91    Fury of the Storm         32,636     3.36     435.15    0        711      magic       75      99%     75      100.00   Ice Lash                  18,655     1.92     214.43    0        403      cold        87      100%    87      100.00   Flameshield               16,628     1.71     26.73     0        83       heat        622     0%      737     84.40    Seed of Fire              9,332      0.96     55.55     0        105      heat        168     100%    168     100.00   Undead Bane               8,555      0.88     56.66     0        277      mental      151     0%      193     78.24    Blooming Flames           7,467      0.77     276.56    51       553      heat        27      100%    27      100.00   Divine Strike             4,318      0.44     359.83    75       618      divine      12      100%    12      100.00   Master's Strike           3,005      0.31     1,001.67  0        1,695    magic       3       100%    3       100.00   Vampire Bats              774        0.08     774.00    774      774      piercing    1       100%    1       100.00   Quicksand                 0          0.00     NaN       0        0        magic       0       NaN     2       0.00     Exposed Elements          0          0.00     NaN       0        0        heat        0       NaN     86      0.00 </span>    </blockquote> <p>Looking through encounter by encounter, there are some people who outright resisted a lot higher percentages than my average. I may be still taking advantage of targets in MC'd gear.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  One person (From AB) who I came up against several times, resisted 58% of the spells I cast on them. Guessing they're at the 75/75 mark..</p><p>I'd be curious to see your "Incoming Damage" "To Hit %" "All", Mine wasn't looking pretty.</p><p>All : to hit % : 88.18Slash: 72.52crush : 75.61pierce : 77.21</p><p>Looks like for melee dmg, I avoid somewhere around 25%.. and that's with, as I recall, 51% avoidance indicated in the UI, including 9% parry?</p><p>So from my parses, it doesn't appear I'm meeting up with a lot of people with high spell avoidance... yet.. but there are some, and more will pop up as time goes by..</p>

Dorsan
06-01-2010, 02:53 PM
I seriously doubt your ability to read. In the ACT I posted all my offensive spells had 100% hit rate, with the exception of Pandemic that had 99.28%. The rest of the things you see in the range of 50-99 are various procs and mainly pet spells. The "all" value you seem to take as meaningfull is to be completely ignored because it counts all CC spells (ie spells that do 0 damage) as resisted. Hence you see 0% hit rate on Shout, Exposed Nox, etc... Those are all abilities that do 0 damage and hence ACT counts them as resisted. The actual hit rate of my own spells in that parse is over 99.9%. (with only 1 resisted pandemic ruining it). And my slash/pierce/crush are usually in the range of 30-70% depending on the opponent.

Blambil
06-01-2010, 03:28 PM
<p><cite>Dorsa[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I seriously doubt your ability to read.</blockquote><p>Come now, no need to be rude.</p><blockquote>In the ACT I posted all my offensive spells had 100% hit rate, with the exception of Pandemic that had 99.28%. The rest of the things you see in the range of 50-99 are various procs and mainly pet spells. The "all" value you seem to take as meaningfull is to be completely ignored because it counts all CC spells (ie spells that do 0 damage) as resisted. Hence you see 0% hit rate on Shout, Exposed Nox, etc... Those are all abilities that do 0 damage and hence ACT counts them as resisted. The actual hit rate of my own spells in that parse is over 99.9%. (with only 1 resisted pandemic ruining it).</blockquote><p> And by the same token, lots of "self" buffs artifically inflate the "all" number.. At this point, the only thing I'm taking as meaningful is my survivability in game.. and it's really no better after the last patch than it was before.</p><p>I'm not sure how I could have higher magical skill (disruption) and yet be seeing higher resist rates than you.  Maybe it's that people raise their elemental resists, but ignore their noxious?  Maybe it's a dataset problem. I'm comparing 28 matches, you're listing 1. Can you go back across a few more matches, maybe merge?</p><blockquote>And my slash/pierce/crush are usually in the range of 30-70% depending on the opponent.</blockquote><p>Your melee avoidance is between 30% and 70%? and you're showing 51% avoidance in the GUI?</p>

Dorsan
06-01-2010, 04:04 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not sure how I could have higher magical skill (disruption) and yet be seeing higher resist rates than you.  Maybe it's that people raise their elemental resists, but ignore their noxious?  Maybe it's a dataset problem. I'm comparing 28 matches, you're listing 1. Can you go back across a few more matches, maybe merge?</p></blockquote><p>It also depends if your skills are master, etc. But you again ignored all I wrote several times and what was even wrote in the SF mechanic thread. The "elemental resists" have no effect on how much a spell gets resisted. Only STA of the target and the skill of the caster have effect on that. (and spell level and aa's spent ofcourse) I did merge months of data before but it takes real long on my machine so I will not do it again. When I did merge my average spell hit rate was around 98% and the average avoidance was around 60%.</p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote>And my slash/pierce/crush are usually in the range of 30-70% depending on the opponent.</blockquote><p>Your melee avoidance is between 30% and 70%? and you're showing 51% avoidance in the GUI?</p></blockquote><p>Yeah at the moment. But my actual avoidance is higher because I maxed the agi line pet avoidance - and that is not counted in the GUI. And tank pet with shield of bones in defensive stance has quite nice avoidance on its own. I am not sure how ACT parses stoneskin, but I have also a 10% chance for 2 stoneskin proc, so if that is counted as miss then it could be the reason too. Or the tank pet, I am not certain about that.</p>

Callim
06-01-2010, 06:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>At some point conjurors and necros has to differ. I can offer info about the points we share similarities but where the similarities end, I don't know what hapens. The fact is, lifetaps aren't even our major heals anymore. With transfer life I crit selfheal for 7K in PvP once every 6 seconds. That spell plus lifetap keeps a constant 1.5k HPS going on for necros and with the added physical mitigation from the last GU it makes you feel like a tank - unless you have 2 good or 4-5 average people beating on you. Additionally you have Bloodcloud and Animist transference if the 1.5k just doesn't cut it and the 2 tinkered heal items as emergency heals.</blockquote><p>Honesty I am unsure why the debate even continued past this point. The summoner who sustains at minimum 1,500 hps from self taps (not including the aoe one apparently), parsing 1,500 dps, has little room to stifle valid requests for class fixes from the other summoner who sustains 45-65 hps (animist transfer), while parsing in the 300 range (over a larger data set).</p><p>Why do you think that is ok? Yes the classes differ, they should, as you say above.  But when one has such a tremendous advantage in survivability from self heals over the other, and an advantage in dps balanced towards the caster for necro's versus towards the pet for conjies, you have no room to say "summoner's are great right now".  Necro's may be, conjies are not.</p><p>I don't pvp or bg on my conjy anymore, and yes, I made him long before the expansion, not for the 1-shot month.  He is a liability to those around me no matter how much I gear him up, when I could bring my SK or any other class instead (also made day 1 of pvp, so no flavor of the month jokes please, I sweated blood with him for years before we got fixed).</p><p>Conjy spike dmg is a joke (total BG dmg is NOT wins fights, in BG or Pvp, spike dmg is), their survivability is a joke, and the necro's trying to kill this thread are not helping.</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 08:02 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>At some point conjurors and necros has to differ. I can offer info about the points we share similarities but where the similarities end, I don't know what hapens. The fact is, lifetaps aren't even our major heals anymore. With transfer life I crit selfheal for 7K in PvP once every 6 seconds. That spell plus lifetap keeps a constant 1.5k HPS going on for necros and with the added physical mitigation from the last GU it makes you feel like a tank - unless you have 2 good or 4-5 average people beating on you. Additionally you have Bloodcloud and Animist transference if the 1.5k just doesn't cut it and the 2 tinkered heal items as emergency heals.</blockquote><p>Honesty I am unsure why the debate even continued past this point. The summoner who sustains at minimum 1,500 hps from self taps (not including the aoe one apparently), parsing 1,500 dps, has little room to stifle valid requests for class fixes from the other summoner who sustains 45-65 hps (animist transfer), while parsing in the 300 range (over a larger data set).</p><p>Why do you think that is ok? Yes the classes differ, they should, as you say above.  But when one has such a tremendous advantage in survivability from self heals over the other, and an advantage in dps balanced towards the caster for necro's versus towards the pet for conjies, you have no room to say "summoner's are great right now".  Necro's may be, conjies are not.</p><p>I don't pvp or bg on my conjy anymore, and yes, I made him long before the expansion, not for the 1-shot month.  He is a liability to those around me no matter how much I gear him up, when I could bring my SK or any other class instead (also made day 1 of pvp, so no flavor of the month jokes please, I sweated blood with him for years before we got fixed).</p><p>Conjy spike dmg is a joke (total BG dmg is NOT wins fights, in BG or Pvp, spike dmg is), their survivability is a joke, and the necro's trying to kill this thread are not helping.</p></blockquote><p>I did just fine with a conj, I saw no issue at all with it, EB is still extremely powerful spike damage.</p>

Stuckx
06-01-2010, 08:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>At some point conjurors and necros has to differ. I can offer info about the points we share similarities but where the similarities end, I don't know what hapens. The fact is, lifetaps aren't even our major heals anymore. With transfer life I crit selfheal for 7K in PvP once every 6 seconds. That spell plus lifetap keeps a constant 1.5k HPS going on for necros and with the added physical mitigation from the last GU it makes you feel like a tank - unless you have 2 good or 4-5 average people beating on you. Additionally you have Bloodcloud and Animist transference if the 1.5k just doesn't cut it and the 2 tinkered heal items as emergency heals.</blockquote><p>Honesty I am unsure why the debate even continued past this point. The summoner who sustains at minimum 1,500 hps from self taps (not including the aoe one apparently), parsing 1,500 dps, has little room to stifle valid requests for class fixes from the other summoner who sustains 45-65 hps (animist transfer), while parsing in the 300 range (over a larger data set).</p><p>Why do you think that is ok? Yes the classes differ, they should, as you say above.  But when one has such a tremendous advantage in survivability from self heals over the other, and an advantage in dps balanced towards the caster for necro's versus towards the pet for conjies, you have no room to say "summoner's are great right now".  Necro's may be, conjies are not.</p><p>I don't pvp or bg on my conjy anymore, and yes, I made him long before the expansion, not for the 1-shot month.  He is a liability to those around me no matter how much I gear him up, when I could bring my SK or any other class instead (also made day 1 of pvp, so no flavor of the month jokes please, I sweated blood with him for years before we got fixed).</p><p>Conjy spike dmg is a joke (total BG dmg is NOT wins fights, in BG or Pvp, spike dmg is), their survivability is a joke, and the necro's trying to kill this thread are not helping.</p></blockquote><p>I did just fine with a conj, I saw no issue at all with it, EB is still extremely powerful spike damage.</p></blockquote><p>Going to call bullsh*t tbh. I log my conj in every now and then to mess around with him,and his damage is still sub-par in PVP. I was attacking a group in NFP yesterday from the sidelines and half my damage didn't even register(I was close enough to see it) and they did not have a shaman. I have 40% potency and 40% critbonus so it's not my gear.</p><p>Ontop of that,a troub was able to turn bow auto attack on and do half my health in one hit.</p><p>So no,conjurors are not okay,and the fact that you are coming here trying to say they are,after only playing a terriblly geared one just goes to show that you either don't know what your talking about,or you just have a grudge against conjurors for getting hit with EB and want to keep them [Removed for Content].</p><p>The people playing conjurors know that they are broken,but when we have to come here and argue with people like you,and dorsan and Koppar,who know nothing about the class,then it gets frustrating.</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 08:36 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Going to call bullsh*t tbh. I log my conj in every now and then to mess around with him,and his damage is still sub-par in PVP. I was attacking a group in NFP yesterday from the sidelines and half my damage didn't even register(I was close enough to see it) and they did not have a shaman. I have 40% potency and 40% critbonus so it's not my gear.</p><p>Ontop of that,a troub was able to turn bow auto attack on and do half my health in one hit.</p><p>So no,conjurors are not okay,and the fact that you are coming here trying to say they are,after only playing a terriblly geared one just goes to show that you either don't know what your talking about,or you just have a grudge against conjurors for getting hit with EB and want to keep them [Removed for Content].</p><p>The people playing conjurors know that they are broken,but when we have to come here and argue with people like you,and dorsan and Koppar,who know nothing about the class,then it gets frustrating.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, This is just one of them, but it was pretty consistant how I did in the BGs, They didn't at all have a bad group setup either, the conj has 0 Pest Rain, 0 Torrent, Didn't even have conversion quest, Only a few spells made this teir, and terribad jewelery especially.</p><p><img src="http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1926/conj.jpg" width="723" height="655" /></p>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 08:46 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, This is just one of them, but it was pretty consistant how I did in the BGs, They didn't at all have a bad group setup either, the conj has 0 Pest Rain, 0 Torrent, Didn't even have conversion quest, Only a few spells made this teir, and terribad jewelery especially.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for posting.. it looks like you did decent dmg.</p><p>Sadly, a match where you were well protected by at least (1) tank, at least (1) healer, and you only died (1) time, is not a good representation of the classes survivability. The two deaths on your team were you and the healer... (as expected). The monk on the other team doing less than 10% of your dmg is perhaps the best indicator of what a blowout that match was..  The 17 kills on the part of the scout? That's the game winner.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 08:48 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok, This is just one of them, but it was pretty consistant how I did in the BGs, They didn't at all have a bad group setup either, the conj has 0 Pest Rain, 0 Torrent, Didn't even have conversion quest, Only a few spells made this teir, and terribad jewelery especially.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for posting.. it looks like you did decent dmg.</p><p>Sadly, a match where you were well protected by at least (1) tank, at least (1) healer, and you only died (1) time, is not a good representation of the classes survivability. The two deaths on your team were you and the healer... (as expected). The monk on the other team doing less than 10% of your dmg is perhaps the best indicator of what a blowout that match was..  The 17 kills on the part of the scout? That's the game winner.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Are you serious? Is that really your arguement? IF a clothy actually has a tank and a healer, then it doesn't show how squishy they are? IT'S INTENDED THAT WAY. If I were to have good gear on that toon when I did that, I very well could have topped the parse. I fail to see how that is wrong.</p>

Stuckx
06-01-2010, 08:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Going to call bullsh*t tbh. I log my conj in every now and then to mess around with him,and his damage is still sub-par in PVP. I was attacking a group in NFP yesterday from the sidelines and half my damage didn't even register(I was close enough to see it) and they did not have a shaman. I have 40% potency and 40% critbonus so it's not my gear.</p><p>Ontop of that,a troub was able to turn bow auto attack on and do half my health in one hit.</p><p>So no,conjurors are not okay,and the fact that you are coming here trying to say they are,after only playing a terriblly geared one just goes to show that you either don't know what your talking about,or you just have a grudge against conjurors for getting hit with EB and want to keep them [Removed for Content].</p><p>The people playing conjurors know that they are broken,but when we have to come here and argue with people like you,and dorsan and Koppar,who know nothing about the class,then it gets frustrating.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, This is just one of them, but it was pretty consistant how I did in the BGs, They didn't at all have a bad group setup either, the conj has 0 Pest Rain, 0 Torrent, Didn't even have conversion quest, Only a few spells made this teir, and terribad jewelery especially.</p><p><img src="http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1926/conj.jpg" width="723" height="655" /></p></blockquote><p>Aggonee did absolutely terrible in that BG,considering it's level 90,and I see DPSers regularlygo in the area of 1-5 million.</p><p>The other group was terrible,and I'm going to tell you why.</p><p>You say that the conj has pretty much no PVP gear,and terrible gear all around. If that's the case,then the assassin would have been able to completely own you within 2 seconds if he had taken the time to target you and turn auto attack on. Your low number of deaths clearly shows that he didn't. The monk and zerker could have just as easily killed you too.</p><p>With conjurors being the absolute easiest class to kill in PVP,there is no reason for the DPSers not to kill you with no problem at all.</p><p>As for the DPS,if people can't outparse a conjuror in PVP right now,then they need to reroll..simple as that. Scout auto attacks hit harder than 95% of a conjuror's spells,earthquake being about the only exception.</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 08:56 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Going to call bullsh*t tbh. I log my conj in every now and then to mess around with him,and his damage is still sub-par in PVP. I was attacking a group in NFP yesterday from the sidelines and half my damage didn't even register(I was close enough to see it) and they did not have a shaman. I have 40% potency and 40% critbonus so it's not my gear.</p><p>Ontop of that,a troub was able to turn bow auto attack on and do half my health in one hit.</p><p>So no,conjurors are not okay,and the fact that you are coming here trying to say they are,after only playing a terriblly geared one just goes to show that you either don't know what your talking about,or you just have a grudge against conjurors for getting hit with EB and want to keep them [Removed for Content].</p><p>The people playing conjurors know that they are broken,but when we have to come here and argue with people like you,and dorsan and Koppar,who know nothing about the class,then it gets frustrating.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, This is just one of them, but it was pretty consistant how I did in the BGs, They didn't at all have a bad group setup either, the conj has 0 Pest Rain, 0 Torrent, Didn't even have conversion quest, Only a few spells made this teir, and terribad jewelery especially.</p><p><img src="http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1926/conj.jpg" width="723" height="655" /></p></blockquote><p>Aggonee did absolutely terrible in that BG,considering it's level 90,and I see DPSers regularlygo in the area of 1-5 million. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Aggonee does extremely good DPS, but you will try to discredit anything that hurts your point.</span></p><p>The other group was terrible,and I'm going to tell you why. <span style="color: #ff0000;">This was just a sample, Like I said, almost every BG went that way that night.</span></p><p>You say that the conj has pretty much no PVP gear,and terrible gear all around. If that's the case,then the assassin would have been able to completely own you within 2 seconds if he had taken the time to target you and turn auto attack on. Your low number of deaths clearly shows that he didn't. The monk and zerker could have just as easily killed you too. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Or, I was warded, and actually worked to stay away from the people that I know could kill me.</span></p><p>With conjurors being the absolute easiest class to kill in PVP,there is no reason for the DPSers not to kill you with no problem at all. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Except, Maybe they aren't as squishy as you suggest.</span></p><p>As for the DPS,if people can't outparse a conjuror in PVP right now,then they need to reroll..simple as that. Scout auto attacks hit harder than 95% of a conjuror's spells,earthquake being about the only exception. <span style="color: #ff0000;">Anything to help your cause</span></p></blockquote>

Blambil
06-01-2010, 09:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Are you serious? Is that really your arguement? IF a clothy actually has a tank and a healer, then it doesn't show how squishy they are? IT'S INTENDED THAT WAY. If I were to have good gear on that toon when I did that, I very well could have topped the parse. I fail to see how that is wrong.</p></blockquote><p>Your example shows nothing more than a complete blowout of the other team.  It was a good example of a conj coming in 2nd in DPS in a blowout match.. </p><p>This thread is about survivability.. Your example doesn't speak to that point at all. The conj has little to no survivability outside a group.</p><p>In fact, the (2) deaths for your team were probably deaths while holding the rune. They probably didn't kill you at all..</p><p><strong>With all due respect, if you don't play a Conj or Necro in PVP, please get off the bus, you don't belong here.</strong></p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 09:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Are you serious? Is that really your arguement? IF a clothy actually has a tank and a healer, then it doesn't show how squishy they are? IT'S INTENDED THAT WAY. If I were to have good gear on that toon when I did that, I very well could have topped the parse. I fail to see how that is wrong.</p></blockquote><p>Your example shows nothing more than a complete blowout of the other team.  It was a good example of a conj coming in 2nd in DPS in a blowout match.. </p><p>This thread is about survivability.. Your example doesn't speak to that point at all. The conj has little to no survivability outside a group.</p><p>In fact, the (2) deaths for your team were probably deaths while holding the rune. They probably didn't kill you at all..</p><p><strong>With all due respect, if you don't play a Conj or Necro in PVP, please get off the bus, you don't belong here.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Because the 6 v 6 BG doesn't act as a group v group in open world, It's the same in almost every way, except a relic hits people, which in that round I do believe was what helped kill me.</p>

Davngr1
06-01-2010, 10:28 PM
<p>a conj or necro for that matter with good heals and troub will do decent damage. </p><p> that parse proves nothing man, the PROBLEM is that any one can bypass the summoner pet and kill the summoner with ease.   that's it, that's all.</p><p> no need to beef up damage or anything like that just survivability summoners are about were they should be in damage.</p><p>  also like to add that the health penalty for necro should be removed since the other mages do just as much damage and dont have to die to do it.</p><p> simple, stop making this complicated.</p><p>  opponent no respect aggression tables = broken survivability</p><p> opponent respect aggression generation tables = balanced survivability</p>

Notsovilepriest
06-01-2010, 11:07 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>a conj or necro for that matter with good heals and troub will do decent damage. </p><p> that parse proves nothing man, the PROBLEM is that any one can bypass the summoner pet and kill the summoner with ease.   that's it, that's all.</p><p> no need to beef up damage or anything like that just survivability summoners are about were they should be in damage.</p><p>  also like to add that the health penalty for necro should be removed since the other mages do just as much damage and dont have to die to do it.</p><p> simple, stop making this complicated.</p><p>  opponent no respect aggression tables = broken survivability</p><p> opponent respect aggression generation tables = balanced survivability</p></blockquote><p>You summoners change what you are complaining about every post TBH.</p>

Dorsan
06-01-2010, 11:35 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> that parse proves nothing man, the PROBLEM is that any one can bypass the summoner pet and kill the summoner with ease.   that's it, that's all.</p><p> no need to beef up damage or anything like that just survivability summoners are about were they should be in damage.</p></blockquote><p>Dude, a PvP geared necro is a <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>PLATE TANK</strong></span> since the last GU. My necro has 5700 physical mitigation solo and I see crusaders with less when I inspect people.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
06-02-2010, 01:20 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>a conj or necro for that matter with good heals and troub will do decent damage. </p><p> that parse proves nothing man, the PROBLEM is that any one can bypass the summoner pet and kill the summoner with ease.   that's it, that's all.</p><p> no need to beef up damage or anything like that just survivability summoners are about were they should be in damage.</p><p>  also like to add that the health penalty for necro should be removed since the other mages do just as much damage and dont have to die to do it.</p><p> simple, stop making this complicated.</p><p>  opponent no respect aggression tables = broken survivability</p><p> opponent respect aggression generation tables = balanced survivability</p></blockquote><p>You got like 2 pvp pieces and are complaning that you die?</p>

Davngr1
06-02-2010, 02:47 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>a conj or necro for that matter with good heals and troub will do decent damage. </p><p> that parse proves nothing man, the PROBLEM is that any one can bypass the summoner pet and kill the summoner with ease.   that's it, that's all.</p><p> no need to beef up damage or anything like that just survivability summoners are about were they should be in damage.</p><p>  also like to add that the health penalty for necro should be removed since the other mages do just as much damage and dont have to die to do it.</p><p> simple, stop making this complicated.</p><p>  opponent no respect aggression tables = broken survivability</p><p> opponent respect aggression generation tables = balanced survivability</p></blockquote><p>You summoners change what you are complaining about every post TBH.</p></blockquote><p>   I, a person who plays a summoner have only asked for survivability AA to be reworked so they take into account PvP comabat were the opponent does not respect aggression tables.</p><p>  that has always been my issue and i'm not complaining im stating the facts mam.</p> <p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> that parse proves nothing man, the PROBLEM is that any one can bypass the summoner pet and kill the summoner with ease.   that's it, that's all.</p><p> no need to beef up damage or anything like that just survivability summoners are about were they should be in damage.</p></blockquote><p>Dude, a PvP geared necro is a <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>PLATE TANK</strong></span> since the last GU. My necro has 5700 physical mitigation solo and I see crusaders with less when I inspect people.</p></blockquote><p>  really?   you wearing necro specific gear?     bro hook me up where do i get this gear only necros can wear?!</p> <p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>a conj or necro for that matter with good heals and troub will do decent damage. </p><p> that parse proves nothing man, the PROBLEM is that any one can bypass the summoner pet and kill the summoner with ease.   that's it, that's all.</p><p> no need to beef up damage or anything like that just survivability summoners are about were they should be in damage.</p><p>  also like to add that the health penalty for necro should be removed since the other mages do just as much damage and dont have to die to do it.</p><p> simple, stop making this complicated.</p><p>  opponent no respect aggression tables = broken survivability</p><p> opponent respect aggression generation tables = balanced survivability</p></blockquote><p>You got like 2 pvp pieces and are complaning that you die?</p></blockquote><p>  the gear has nothing to do with the AA foundation of summoner being weak. </p><p> my wizard has ZERO pvp gear and he tanks nagafen characters with FULL pvp gear for good long while.  why is that?  because he's AA WORK!   my necros AA DON"T!</p><p> btw you with full PvP gear don't last as long as he does with ZERO pvp gear!</p>

Dorsan
06-02-2010, 03:21 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  the gear has nothing to do with the AA foundation of summoner being weak. </p><p> my wizard has ZERO pvp gear and he tanks nagafen characters with FULL pvp gear for good long while.  why is that?  because he's AA WORK!   my necros AA DON"T!</p><p> btw you with full PvP gear don't last as long as he does with ZERO pvp gear!</p></blockquote><p>Sorcerer survivability has been broken for a long time now. There are many classes broken in PvP at the moment. But the solution is not to broke other classes to match these. The solution is to fix the broken classes. I am currently on the edge to call the necro survivability in full PvP gear broken too. I am not in full T9 PvP gear and I am already able to tank scout attacks while annoying them with silly emotes instead of fighting back (which I do enjoy if I might add) and that is just not right. I have been playing PvP necro before SF and I can tell you we used to be way more fragile in PvP.</p>

Badmotorfinger
06-02-2010, 11:52 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  the gear has nothing to do with the AA foundation of summoner being weak. </p><p> my wizard has ZERO pvp gear and he tanks nagafen characters with FULL pvp gear for good long while.  why is that?  because he's AA WORK!   my necros AA DON"T!</p><p> btw you with full PvP gear don't last as long as he does with ZERO pvp gear!</p></blockquote><p>Sorcerer survivability has been broken for a long time now. There are many classes broken in PvP at the moment. But the solution is not to broke other classes to match these. The solution is to fix the broken classes. I am currently on the edge to call the necro survivability in full PvP gear broken too. I am not in full T9 PvP gear and I am already able to tank scout attacks while annoying them with silly emotes instead of fighting back (which I do enjoy if I might add) and that is just not right. I have been playing PvP necro before SF and I can tell you we used to be way more fragile in PvP.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, Sorcerer survivability is pretty fed up.  It's a lot easier for me to kill a Tank than a Sorc.  IMO, they're the new EZ-mode.  People shouldn't compare what summoners can do in relation to Sorcs.  Our surviavbility has gone up enough to be competative.  Sorcerer survivablitiy has gone up enough to be over powered....</p>

Blambil
06-02-2010, 12:55 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, Sorcerer survivability is pretty fed up.  It's a lot easier for me to kill a Tank than a Sorc.  IMO, they're the new EZ-mode.  People shouldn't compare what summoners can do in relation to Sorcs.  Our surviavbility has gone up enough to be competative.  Sorcerer survivablitiy has gone up enough to be over powered....</p></blockquote><p>... which scares the crap out of summoners.. .because SoE keeps painting with such a wide "change" brush, summoners are grouped in with mages... which means that any dmg reductions, resist changes, etc that are applied on "mages" will affect us.</p><p>as a conj, I can't kill a wizard or a warlock with dmg alone.. I have to kill them with timing... stuns, stifles, taunts, knockbacks, and even then, in a 1:1, I have about a 20% chance of coming out alive. in a stand-and-shoot contest I lose....Manaskin/shield eats EB, my single burst dmg item, and barely moves their bars....</p><p>From a suggestion standpoint, CONJ need a way to make their self-stoneskin regenerating,, like a ward, instead of 3 hits or 30 seconds every 10 minutes. As it stands, it's almost completely useless in pvp.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
06-02-2010, 01:30 PM
<p>I can understand that Conjurs have som problems cause the lack the heals that necros got. But a necro nowdays is staying alive very good against almost every class.</p>

Skubysnax
06-05-2010, 04:49 AM
<p>Boggles my mind to see any necro from the pvp servers post that necros are good the way they are.  How many pvp necros out there t9 , around 2 , 3 maybe. Why post that their fine they way they are, no need to pound  your chest saying how you got the class on lock down. No one plays the class pvp much, cause it sucks, anyone with a fear pot and melee dps is gonna own your face. Lots of classes got SUPER hooked up over the years , necros got NOTHING. Sony throw them some love, maybe give them the eq1 10 sec invuln harmshield , or a viable DOT life tap that actually heals thru some dmg, or eq1 style splurt , a dot that starts slow but as it sticks on ya starts to rev up eating more dmg per tick, or a life tap that heals you in pvp = to dmg given with a faster cast time. LOVED my necro eq1 back in the day was a blast to play , I have an alt 80 necro now, so much you could do with this class.</p>

Davngr1
06-05-2010, 10:06 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  the gear has nothing to do with the AA foundation of summoner being weak. </p><p> my wizard has ZERO pvp gear and he tanks nagafen characters with FULL pvp gear for good long while.  why is that?  because he's AA WORK!   my necros AA DON"T!</p><p> btw you with full PvP gear don't last as long as he does with ZERO pvp gear!</p></blockquote><p>Sorcerer survivability has been broken for a long time now. There are many classes broken in PvP at the moment. But the solution is not to broke other classes to match these. The solution is to fix the broken classes. I am currently on the edge to call the necro survivability in full PvP gear broken too. I am not in full T9 PvP gear and I am already able to tank scout attacks while annoying them with silly emotes instead of fighting back (which I do enjoy if I might add) and that is just not right. I have been playing PvP necro before SF and I can tell you we used to be way more fragile in PvP.</p></blockquote><p> sorc is not broken.. sorc is where it should be since they can be attacked and can fight back before the die.</p><p>  a necro can not do that against a equal gear/skill player.  my assassin has tore up both you and guld before and his gear is nothing special.   </p><p> try going against some of the top assassins/sorc/swash/brig and you two go down like a 2 dolla hoe.     that is who you need to gauge your survivability against since those players are the ones that are at par with you two.</p><p> some type of survivability AA is all necro/summoner needs, something that involves the pet but does not hinge on the attacker respecting aggression tables.</p><p>  </p><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can understand that Conjurs have som problems cause the lack the heals that necros got. But a necro nowdays is alive very good against almost every class.</p></blockquote><p>  negative because health penalty negates what little advantage necro slow casting heals bring.  </p><p>   guld and doran keep posting here that the class does not need a survivability boost but the fact is that every other equaly gear dps class wtfowns them and you're both posting about being border line overpowerd?  because you can kill undergeard players that don't play their class very well?  seriously?   guys start offering sulutions not hot air.</p>

Dorsan
06-06-2010, 01:04 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> sorc is not broken..</p></blockquote><p>If you start from that assumption then you will reach impossible conclusions about class balance.</p>

Dorsan
06-06-2010, 01:23 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>my assassin has tore up both you and guld before and his gear is nothing special.  </blockquote><p>This is a flat out lie. I just did a search in my logs for string redolent and we have never been in the same battlegrounds.</p><p>And I am not saying that an assassin couldn't kill me - Vymm can - just I am saying we have never been in the same battlegrounds with your assassin.</p>

Runelaron
06-07-2010, 01:02 AM
<p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Olihin and I have discussed summoner survivability and the issue it being worked on.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">We have exchanged information and some things are being reviewed not to be to overpowered and will be implemented by the next GU.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Untill then I will post some useful summoner survivability tips. </span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Not only can we top the chart (or come second) we can also survive a lot of damage.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">I will post more as I get more information.</span></p>

Dorsan
06-07-2010, 01:36 AM
<p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Olihin and I have discussed summoner survivability and the issue it being worked on.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">We have exchanged information and some things are being reviewed not to be to overpowered and will be implemented by the next GU.</span></p></blockquote><p>I really hope <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/Nagafen/Rune/" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/Nagafen/Rune/</a> is not the only summoner you play. I'd hate to have changes implemented based on the input from someone with 8 days of /played and not in top tier.</p><p>While you seem to agree with the points I am also representing, if you don't play an endgame summoner you don't have relevant input to that aspect of the game. Summoner survivability changes drastically from tier to tier.</p><p>edit: However if you're <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/Nagafen/Runelaron/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...afen/Runelaron/</a> then welcome to the club lol. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Runelaron
06-07-2010, 02:19 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Olihin and I have discussed summoner survivability and the issue it being worked on.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">We have exchanged information and some things are being reviewed not to be to overpowered and will be implemented by the next GU.</span></p></blockquote><p>I really hope <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/Nagafen/Rune/" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/Nagafen/Rune/</a> is not the only summoner you play. I'd hate to have changes implemented based on the input from someone with 8 days of /played and not in top tier.</p><p>While you seem to agree with the points I am also representing, if you don't play an endgame summoner you don't have relevant input to that aspect of the game. Summoner survivability changes drastically from tier to tier.</p><p>edit: However if you're <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/Nagafen/Runelaron/" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...afen/Runelaron/</a> then welcome to the club lol. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">I am the Later.. Runelaron on Nagafen.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">and Thanks.</span></p>

Guld_Ulrish
06-07-2010, 05:31 AM
<p>Why dont Ohlin make a post in the necomancer and conjurer forum about this.</p>

Davngr1
06-07-2010, 08:42 PM
<p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Olihin and I have discussed summoner survivability and the issue it being worked on.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">We have exchanged information and some things are being reviewed not to be to overpowered and will be implemented by the next GU.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Untill then I will post some useful summoner survivability tips. </span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Not only can we top the chart (or come second) we can also survive a lot of damage.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">I will post more as I get more information.</span></p></blockquote><p> well imo  the best way to not overpower the class is to not "add" anything and instead shift some of the survivability AA from the pet and give them to the summoner. </p><p> i think amist bond is the best place to do this and like the idea of sharing a % of damage with the pets HP pool for 30 seconds every 3 minutes and instant cast time.   </p><p> the duration, recast and cast times are up for debate, i would suppose but IMO "adding" anything new should be out of the question.</p><p>edit.  also lifeburn and plane shift should add value to the AA.   ie. lifeburn could partially be mitigated by the AA and plane shift while the AA is up should add a solid survivability boost(pet hp pool).</p>

Blambil
06-07-2010, 09:35 PM
<p>Stoneskin could either be TIME related (10/20/30 seconds/etc) or a larger number of hits... 3 hits every 10 minutes is almost completely useless.</p>

Kota
06-08-2010, 01:42 PM
i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.

Blambil
06-08-2010, 03:47 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.</blockquote><p>That's been my result, almost no matter which class I play.. I can destroy conj in a fairly short period of time (though out of respect and pity, I'll generally tab away from them...).. but necros are almost impossible to kill lately.</p><p>Because their dmg heals, in PVP:</p><p><strong>SK > PallyInq > TempNecro > Conj</strong></p><p>In exchange each of those classes (pally, temp, conj) should have something that enhances their survivability.. I play all 6 classes listed there, and most think pallys and temps are fine.. (some might even argue OP)... Conj on the other hand.... really get NOTHING to balance out, in PVP, the healing that Necros get. Take base Lifetap, as an example. heal for 1k, do 2k dmg, every 8 seconds Recast base delay? (now factor in crit chance, crit bonus, AB, potency, and now you can heal 25-50% of your health every !4-5!  seconds!) Plz-may-I-have-that?</p><p>Hear me correctly. I'm not saying NERF Necro's... That amount of healing can be managed by multiple classes, all with other tradeoffs. I'm saying CONJ don't get ANYTHING that gives EVEN close to that amount of survivability..</p>

Badmotorfinger
06-09-2010, 12:14 PM
<p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Olihin and I have discussed summoner survivability and the issue it being worked on.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">We have exchanged information and some things are being reviewed not to be to overpowered and will be implemented by the next GU.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Untill then I will post some useful summoner survivability tips. </span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Not only can we top the chart (or come second) we can also survive a lot of damage.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">I will post more as I get more information.</span></p></blockquote><p>This is actually pretty concerning, TBH.  I really hope the devs aren't ignorant enough to balance "summoners" based on half the spectrum.   </p><p>Good luck with that though, huh.</p><p>There's sizeable gap in how these two classes are played.</p>

Davngr1
06-11-2010, 10:18 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.</blockquote><p>it's actualy you who needs to L2P sir.</p><p>he was probly better geard then you and go lucky on pet crits and you don't know how to interupt if he tanked you.. .   pretty weak tbh</p>

Dorsan
06-11-2010, 10:25 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.</blockquote><p>it's actualy you who needs to L2P sir.</p><p>he was probly better geard then you and go lucky on pet crits and you don't know how to interupt if he tanked you.. .   pretty weak tbh</p></blockquote><p>It is impossible to lose 1on1 vs a zerker if you're a necro. Only tank that does have the chance would be bruiser...</p>

Davngr1
06-11-2010, 10:35 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.</blockquote><p>it's actualy you who needs to L2P sir.</p><p>he was probly better geard then you and go lucky on pet crits and you don't know how to interupt if he tanked you.. .   pretty weak tbh</p></blockquote><p>It is impossible to lose 1on1 vs a zerker if you're a necro. Only tank that does have the chance would be bruiser...</p></blockquote><p>ROTF...</p><p> like push don't push your **** in?</p><p>  bro seriously you're highly moronic at times!</p><p> further more the fact that the necro tanked him proves the point that the dude didn't know what he was doing or are necros immune to interupts and kb's?   seriously man you're just a dou.che for the most part and only post to read your own dribble.</p>

Dorsan
06-11-2010, 11:32 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> like push don't push your **** in?</p></blockquote><p>Exactly. He can't kill me 1on1. Ask him.</p>

Kota
06-11-2010, 11:49 AM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.</blockquote><p>it's actualy you who needs to L2P sir.</p><p>he was probly better geard then you and go lucky on pet crits and you don't know how to interupt if he tanked you.. .   pretty weak tbh</p></blockquote><p>It is impossible to lose 1on1 vs a zerker if you're a necro. Only tank that does have the chance would be bruiser...</p></blockquote><p>ROTF...</p><p> like push don't push your **** in?</p><p>  bro seriously you're highly moronic at times!</p><p> further more the fact that the necro tanked him proves the point that the dude didn't know what he was doing or are necros immune to interupts and kb's?   seriously man you're just a dou.che for the most part and only post to read your own dribble.</p></blockquote><p>i know [Removed for Content] i'm doing.  zerks don't have burst dps so if you have any dillusions about that, stop.  and zerks get 1 kb on a decent cast/reuse, and a second one that has a 1.5 sec cast and significant re use.  1.5 is a long time if you're trying to use it to interrupt someone.  we get a stifle, but 6 sec wasn't near enough time to kill the guy.  2 interrupts, which are nice and all, but he just gets to recast right away anyway.  all together it sounds like a sure win for me, but he wasn't gonna lay down and die.  between the misses, resisted taunt (one of my interrupts) and the fact that he was fear/kiting me, it didn't work out.  i couldn't do enough dps between his heals to bring him down.  oh, and i didn't mention, that i was 2 boxing my templar.  with templar buffs i have over 29k hp.  he feared my temp, and freaking detonated my zerk the first fight.  and no you can't cast sanctuary if you're already feared.  if you think necros are bad, you should l2p or fight a good one.</p>

Guld_Ulrish
06-11-2010, 12:02 PM
<p>Zerkers do not kill a necro in 1v1, if they KB or interupt, just throw a pet taunt in and heal some more.</p>

Drec
06-11-2010, 08:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Okay, so I've read on many places how we summoners are defenseless, and it's all nice and sweet, but let's take a look what the tank pet can do for our survivability. You'd be surprised... I'd also recommend conjurors to read this as we share many common AA's and their pet is probably similar.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Tank pet CC</strong></span></p><p>So let's start with the tank pet's CC abilities, as good CC helps with survivability... So here is what our tank pet casts when PvP checkbox is enabled:</p><p>Graven Breath - single target stiffle for 3.0 secGraven Vanquishing - single target fear for 2.1 secGraven Frenzy - single target root for 5.0 secGraven Strike - single target direct damage + 20% chance to force targetGraven Scream - encounter root for 5.0 sec + 20% chance to force targetGraven Assault - encounter stiffle for 2.3 sec</p><p>Although we have absolutely no control over this and these skills will be resisted a lot, they will still improve our survivability in 1on1 situations.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Defensive AA build</strong></span></p><p>The next step is to look at the shared old summoner tree and see what we have for defense there:</p><p>Parrying Rank 10 - 10% uncontested parryCabalists Cover 10 - 65% chance for pet avoidance *explanation belowShockwave - instant cast AE knockback and 1.2 sec stunPerceptors Command 10 - single target instant cast taunt lock for 2 sec to pet (<em>on short recast!!!</em>)Animist's Transference - heal/selfheal using pets healthMinion's Warding 10 - 20% chance to prevent 90% of incoming spell damage</p><p><em>*while many argue that Cabalists Cover is useless, it does provide for around 7% real avoidance and 10% if shield of bones is specced if you use tank pet in defense stance</em></p><p>For the TSO trees and character development, you will want to max your health - because with bigger health pool you can take more hits before going down. You will also want to max the physical mitigation in character development because our cloth mitigation is so low that this will be very noticable. Also shield of bones is very important AA for the defensive tank pet necro build because it provides 5% uncontested block chance for the pet, which then translates into 3.25% uncontested block chance for the necro with Cabalists Cover.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Food/drink</strong></span></p><p>A defensive necro will eat and drink defensively too. Great stuff for this purpose are:</p><p>Gazer Vitreous Infusion (+15.4 INT, 2.5% uncontested avoidance)Gazer Nerve Reduction (+20.8 INT, 2.5% uncontested avoidance)</p><p>With the Cabalists Cover and Parrying this ammounts for 25% total real PvP avoidance.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Gear choices</strong></span></p><p>You will want to gear defensively. Make sure you have at least one stoneskin proccing item (Gynok ring or PvP equivalent is meant for necros, its stats are still ok even in T9, gives some pet buffs and grants 18% of all incoming damage avoidance - I haven't seen a T9 item that gives you more for the slot - just with this one item plus the defensive build, you already disabled 40% of the attacking scouts damage compared to "standard" necro build) Also make sure to have as much heal/ward proccing gear you can get while maxing your toughness to the highest possible value.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Clickies</strong></span></p><p>If you want to excell you must be prepared in emergency situations. Get your tinkering to max and use the tinkered healing items, they are gold. Stun/stiffle/fear pots are a must as well as curing pots. You will want all the signets too. Ward pots - yes! Basically, if you can click it and it does anything, have it on your hotbar.</p><p>All in all, you can get to reasonable mitigation, avoidance and free CC from your pet while your own CC is still at your disposal (stun, fear, root, snare). You are able to selfheal for 500-1000 HPS and dish out some recent DPS.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for the awsome post Dorsan.</p><p>Well since I'm here I'll throw my 2 cents into the pot. Now before I overstep my bounds and give fuel for the trolls I just wanna get one thing clear. I'm posting this with views from a necro's point of view at the lower tiers. (currently T6)</p><p>Back in the beginning of the year I threw a tell to Dorsan and asked him for some advice on AA to help point me and my new necro in the right direction. I found his advice was very sound and has helped my experience with the necro class to be very fun.</p><p>I myself find that the tank pet offers me much better survivability than the other pet classes. I played through T3-T5 swapping between the mage and tank pets and time and time again the tank pet hands down just performs much much better. For example: While the mage pet has more DPS it in often times is not the brightest pet out there. All it takes is for your target to get out of line of sight of the pet and the mage DPS stops.. that small rock is just too difficult for your mage pet to simply walk around. While the tank pet, unless some form of CC is used will endlessly persue your target = continued DPS. In BG's GoK there are alot of objects that block your mage's line of sight.</p><p>Now I cannot speak for the necro class any higher than T6 but so far I see nothing wrong with it. I have great success in both open world PvP and BG's. I'm almost always topping the charts in damage with hardly any deaths.. 1 at the most. There is not a single class that I've come across that I have not been able to beat. Now I'm not saying that I don't get killed myself. But when I come across a class that is being played by a person that plays their class well, those fights often prove to be very fun and challenging. Win or lose.</p><p>I'll probrably get troll'd anyhow for this post but that's how alot of peeps get by on a daily basis it seems. Sad.</p>

Davngr1
06-12-2010, 04:28 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.</blockquote><p>it's actualy you who needs to L2P sir.</p><p>he was probly better geard then you and go lucky on pet crits and you don't know how to interupt if he tanked you.. .   pretty weak tbh</p></blockquote><p>It is impossible to lose 1on1 vs a zerker if you're a necro. Only tank that does have the chance would be bruiser...</p></blockquote><p>ROTF...</p><p> like push don't push your **** in?</p><p>  bro seriously you're highly moronic at times!</p><p> further more the fact that the necro tanked him proves the point that the dude didn't know what he was doing or are necros immune to interupts and kb's?   seriously man you're just a dou.che for the most part and only post to read your own dribble.</p></blockquote><p>i know [Removed for Content] i'm doing.  zerks don't have burst dps so if you have any dillusions about that, stop.  and zerks get 1 kb on a decent cast/reuse, and a second one that has a 1.5 sec cast and significant re use.  1.5 is a long time if you're trying to use it to interrupt someone.  we get a stifle, but 6 sec wasn't near enough time to kill the guy.  2 interrupts, which are nice and all, but he just gets to recast right away anyway.  all together it sounds like a sure win for me, but he wasn't gonna lay down and die.  between the misses, resisted taunt (one of my interrupts) and the fact that he was fear/kiting me, it didn't work out.  i couldn't do enough dps between his heals to bring him down.  oh, and i didn't mention, that i was 2 boxing my templar.  with templar buffs i have over 29k hp.  he feared my temp, and freaking detonated my zerk the first fight.  and no you can't cast sanctuary if you're already feared.  if you think necros are bad, you should l2p or fight a good one.</p></blockquote><p>ok.. so you lost because you where 2 boxing.   </p><p>  that's the way it should be maybe if you had been paying attention to one class instead of two you would have out witted him.   </p><p> yes many changes have allowed for casters to be much more efficient against melee classes(also im sure his gear defensive) but the fact is that of all the casters summoners have the weakest survivability in PvP combat.</p><p> you people keep bringing up crap that can be done by EVERY other mage class ie. defensive gear, survivability clickys, pots, support classes and trying to play them off as "how to not suck as a summoner" when it fact NONE of it has anything to do with the SUMMONER class.</p><p> btw YES i mean YOU PEOPLE!</p>

Kota
06-12-2010, 05:47 PM
<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.</blockquote><p>it's actualy you who needs to L2P sir.</p><p>he was probly better geard then you and go lucky on pet crits and you don't know how to interupt if he tanked you.. .   pretty weak tbh</p></blockquote><p>It is impossible to lose 1on1 vs a zerker if you're a necro. Only tank that does have the chance would be bruiser...</p></blockquote><p>ROTF...</p><p> like push don't push your **** in?</p><p>  bro seriously you're highly moronic at times!</p><p> further more the fact that the necro tanked him proves the point that the dude didn't know what he was doing or are necros immune to interupts and kb's?   seriously man you're just a dou.che for the most part and only post to read your own dribble.</p></blockquote><p>i know [Removed for Content] i'm doing.  zerks don't have burst dps so if you have any dillusions about that, stop.  and zerks get 1 kb on a decent cast/reuse, and a second one that has a 1.5 sec cast and significant re use.  1.5 is a long time if you're trying to use it to interrupt someone.  we get a stifle, but 6 sec wasn't near enough time to kill the guy.  2 interrupts, which are nice and all, but he just gets to recast right away anyway.  all together it sounds like a sure win for me, but he wasn't gonna lay down and die.  between the misses, resisted taunt (one of my interrupts) and the fact that he was fear/kiting me, it didn't work out.  i couldn't do enough dps between his heals to bring him down.  oh, and i didn't mention, that i was 2 boxing my templar.  with templar buffs i have over 29k hp.  he feared my temp, and freaking detonated my zerk the first fight.  and no you can't cast sanctuary if you're already feared.  if you think necros are bad, you should l2p or fight a good one.</p></blockquote><p>ok.. so you lost because you where 2 boxing.   </p><p>  that's the way it should be maybe if you had been paying attention to one class instead of two you would have out witted him.   </p><p> yes many changes have allowed for casters to be much more efficient against melee classes(also im sure his gear defensive) but the fact is that of all the casters summoners have the weakest survivability in PvP combat.</p><p> you people keep bringing up crap that can be done by EVERY other mage class ie. defensive gear, survivability clickys, pots, support classes and trying to play them off as "how to not suck as a summoner" when it fact NONE of it has anything to do with the SUMMONER class.</p><p> btw YES i mean YOU PEOPLE!</p></blockquote><p>i didn't lose because i was 2 boxing.  the duration of his fear was almost enough time to kill my zerk.  there is no 'out-witting'  a necro as a zerk.  there is nothing tricky about it.  you try to chain your stun/stifles/interrupts/kb's and run dps.  that's all you can do.  i didn't have enough cc to keep him from healing my dps off.  it's simple.  you keep trying to chalk this up to a shortcoming on my end.  if you think i'm lacking and you're on fp side, let me know and i will sort you out.  i'll 2 box or solo with my zerk.  i would offer to solo with my temp but that smell like a 20 minute fight and i get bored after about 15 at the keyboard anymore.  or just tell me your in game name and i will head hunt you and you can compile some parses to establish wether or not i suck.  sounds like you're just bad at necro.  ask palae how to pvp.</p>

Davngr1
06-14-2010, 11:11 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>i don't usually go this route, but maybe necro's just need to L2P. i went toe to toe with a fp necro named Palae (i think) and he absolutely destroyed my zerk. made 24k hp look like nothing. i went at him again with DW and o stance and he out healed my dps and maintained full power. he didn't kite me, he tanked me. i don't feel sorry for necros at all. they just need to learn how to do what he did.</blockquote><p>it's actualy you who needs to L2P sir.</p><p>he was probly better geard then you and go lucky on pet crits and you don't know how to interupt if he tanked you.. .   pretty weak tbh</p></blockquote><p>It is impossible to lose 1on1 vs a zerker if you're a necro. Only tank that does have the chance would be bruiser...</p></blockquote><p>ROTF...</p><p> like push don't push your **** in?</p><p>  bro seriously you're highly moronic at times!</p><p> further more the fact that the necro tanked him proves the point that the dude didn't know what he was doing or are necros immune to interupts and kb's?   seriously man you're just a dou.che for the most part and only post to read your own dribble.</p></blockquote><p>i know [Removed for Content] i'm doing.  zerks don't have burst dps so if you have any dillusions about that, stop.  and zerks get 1 kb on a decent cast/reuse, and a second one that has a 1.5 sec cast and significant re use.  1.5 is a long time if you're trying to use it to interrupt someone.  we get a stifle, but 6 sec wasn't near enough time to kill the guy.  2 interrupts, which are nice and all, but he just gets to recast right away anyway.  all together it sounds like a sure win for me, but he wasn't gonna lay down and die.  between the misses, resisted taunt (one of my interrupts) and the fact that he was fear/kiting me, it didn't work out.  i couldn't do enough dps between his heals to bring him down.  oh, and i didn't mention, that i was 2 boxing my templar.  with templar buffs i have over 29k hp.  he feared my temp, and freaking detonated my zerk the first fight.  and no you can't cast sanctuary if you're already feared.  if you think necros are bad, you should l2p or fight a good one.</p></blockquote><p>ok.. so you lost because you where 2 boxing.   </p><p>  that's the way it should be maybe if you had been paying attention to one class instead of two you would have out witted him.   </p><p> yes many changes have allowed for casters to be much more efficient against melee classes(also im sure his gear defensive) but the fact is that of all the casters summoners have the weakest survivability in PvP combat.</p><p> you people keep bringing up crap that can be done by EVERY other mage class ie. defensive gear, survivability clickys, pots, support classes and trying to play them off as "how to not suck as a summoner" when it fact NONE of it has anything to do with the SUMMONER class.</p><p> btw YES i mean YOU PEOPLE!</p></blockquote><p>i didn't lose because i was 2 boxing.  the duration of his fear was almost enough time to kill my zerk.  there is no 'out-witting'  a necro as a zerk.  there is nothing tricky about it.  you try to chain your stun/stifles/interrupts/kb's and run dps.  that's all you can do.  i didn't have enough cc to keep him from healing my dps off.  it's simple.  you keep trying to chalk this up to a shortcoming on my end.  if you think i'm lacking and you're on fp side, let me know and i will sort you out.  i'll 2 box or solo with my zerk.  i would offer to solo with my temp but that smell like a 20 minute fight and i get bored after about 15 at the keyboard anymore.  or just tell me your in game name and i will head hunt you and you can compile some parses to establish wether or not i suck.  sounds like you're just bad at necro.  ask palae how to pvp.</p></blockquote><p>i don't play on nagafen but i do play BG's feel free to head hunt me all you want my necro dies pretty easy it won't be much of an acomplishment.</p><p> what you're not "getting" is the fact that any mage(gear/skill equal) could have done what that necro did to you.  </p><p> a chanter could have mezzed your temp and stun locked you to death.</p><p>a sorc could have feard/stuned (there are items that fear players) and then burned you down twice as fast as the necro could have.  </p><p> so your posting here about your one encounter with a necro has SAYS NOTHING about the fact that the class has NO personal survivability AA.  </p><p> THAT IS THE ISSUE..   not what harry, di.ck and tom can do against jane,mary and tina!</p><p> is that understood?</p><p> btw for bg's</p><p> davngr = necro</p><p>sinkingsoslow = wiz</p><p>redolent = assassin</p><p>jeeg = bruiser</p><p>gaiking = sk</p><p>timetodie = brig</p><p> that's most of the toons i regularly Bg with .. come get some son!</p>

draghoule
06-15-2010, 03:47 PM
<p>well to get back to the origional topic, i've played both high level necro and now currently conj, and as far as pvp is concerned yeah it's undeniably broken, now i'm not saying it isn't a perfectly fine class in group or if it even happens anymore raid pvp, but solo it's just not workable, there is no defense whatsoever they need a manashield function just like the wizard or warlock, which shockingly get manashield despite being able to put dps out sooooo much faster than the summoners, and it's almost impossible to kite with the conj cause they only have one root, and a couple slows, which if your fighting anyone with any intelligence or ability at all, ...........they will simply cure, back in the day people had to get past your pet to get to you, which may have been alittle op, but it made the class useable in pvp if you were quick with getting your pet on your target, which imo makes the tank pet worthless, and you can't afford the loss of dps to throw it at a scout class cause their gonna 3 shot you at worst, finally the dps you put out yourself takes prob around 12-15 seconds to put out 5 or 6 spells, which is WAY too long if your going to be fighting a fast dps toon.</p><p>       now if your in a group alot of these problems lessen or disappear with a tank in your group, as your going to have alot more time, but there's not too many classes that i run up on with my conj and think, man i've got a good chance to win this, and people say well go out and get some ward gear, / defensive gear, but the problem is it kind of cancels it out when everybody else has it too.....</p><p>        so i guess i'll just keep on with what i've been doing, if i'm gonna be solo pvp,...........log onto my sk</p>

draghoule
06-15-2010, 03:50 PM
<p>btw i'm also only talking lvl 90 since at lower tiers many classes are different overall strength wise than they end game at ( like the almost immortal healers in the 30's-40's)</p>

Runelaron
06-20-2010, 03:59 PM
<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why dont Ohlin make a post in the necomancer and conjurer forum about this.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Because he has a lot of things to handle, and he does not want to through around idea's that anyone might jump to conclusions.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Most dev's do this because of the wild thoughts that people tend to jump to.</span></p>

Runelaron
06-20-2010, 04:46 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Runelaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Olihin and I have discussed summoner survivability and the issue it being worked on.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">We have exchanged information and some things are being reviewed not to be to overpowered and will be implemented by the next GU.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Untill then I will post some useful summoner survivability tips. </span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Not only can we top the chart (or come second) we can also survive a lot of damage.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">I will post more as I get more information.</span></p></blockquote><p>This is actually pretty concerning, TBH.  I really hope the devs aren't ignorant enough to balance "summoners" based on half the spectrum.   </p><p>Good luck with that though, huh.</p><p>There's sizeable gap in how these two classes are played.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Sorry been busy IRL, so to elaborate.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><strong>The focus of survivability.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Olihin's concerns was not our outright ability to survive damage. This can be done EXTREMELY  well in PVP with full PVP gear and correct AA balance. (detailed below)</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">His primary request from me was the breakdown on the "our pets suck" area for PvP. He was quite concerned that a pet class, thought its own pets where useless in PvP. Also why our most commonly used pet is fire.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><strong>The Solution</strong>.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">The suggested solutions and breakdown of the pets viability was to focus on the pet. He has read all the concerns and pro's and cons to the pets, and wants to build a way for us to focus more on our pets or assistance in PVP. (not just extra DPS) He is looking to fixing certain broken spells, Defensive haven, Antagonize, ext... to allow our pets to become accessory in our tactical arsenal.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><strong>The Fixes.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Fixing spells.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Pet oriented PVP buffs.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Pet focused PVP armor effects.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Putting focus on our pet in pvp.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><strong>The Concerns.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">He understands the primary concern, the focus is on US not our pet!</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">He wishes to correct that, in a situation that makes it tactically better to Kill the pet first or disable the pet. Effectively giving us a longer survival time by "buying us time".</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Most pets lack severly in PVP, the Tanks life is almost nothing in PVP. The scout well, it just sucks. Fire is the most viably pet do to its damage and range witch makes it the only pet to use in most cases.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><strong>ETA! WHEN! WHEN! SOON'tm</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">These fixes will be evaluated, worked on and implemented in GU 37. His greatest concern is flipping a switch or two and making us to overpowered like pre-sinking sands. So it will take time and consideration to implement these fixes and corrections.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><strong>The Peak of Survivability.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Now what most people want to know is what did I show him. Well I sent him video of me in verious combat situations and how I deal with 1 - 3 people very well and up to 6 - 8 people with a healer.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">How?! hacker.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Here is the AA breakdown and the spell breakdown.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">10 - Parrying</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">10- Cabalist Cover</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">10- Minion's warding</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">1 - Prospectors Command</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">8 - Animists Aptitude</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">1 - Hydromancer</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">5 - Runes of Geomancy</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">5 - Strength of Elements</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">1 - Unabate</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">5 - Geotic Rune</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">5 - Runic Protection</span></p><p><span style="color: #339966;">5 - Arcane Barrier</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">5 - Elemental Pact</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">1 - Minions Mark</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">1 - Pet Weapon Mastery</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Must USE spells.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Prospectors command - Every time its up.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Magic Leach -bound with- Minions Translocation - 2 -3 seconds after Prospectors. (when available)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">EarthQuake - On ramps and in dense populated areas (use Minions TL to Escape)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Communion - Use mid battle to heal and distract/taunt.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">These are CORE spells and AA's.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">The combination of these will give you the Highest avoidance and the strongest Strikethrough damage. Most going twords your pet. He should never hit for less than max unless a enemies buff or debuff is active on him.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">And most of all THINK, don't just wildly cast. Watch what spells and abilities your oponant is using. If theres a ward drill it down with dots and use only heavy spells to draw life.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">If theres  Divine aura just stop damage, root and taunt. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">DONT USE MACROS they will do nothing for you, every class is different.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Use your positioning, knock them off the [Removed for Content] cliff. You pet automatically find line of site. (they wont)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Get your pvp gear. and Adorn it with crit mit. It will not fail you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"></span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">At this point you should be able to survive almost anyone for a long period of time, and winning only depends on your Team and Tactics. Practice and have fun.</span></p>