what is and what isn't exploits and unfair runspeed? [Archive]

Vorlonxx

04-01-2010, 03:37 PM

I have heard alot of complaining about what is and whats not so called exploits. Although ive tried contacting several gm's, i have yet to get a firm answer. all i know is what other players tell me, for what is worth.for instance, in the battlegrounds of ganak--at the upper aqueduct where the respawn point is, ive seen players that have jump boots manage to get up there and sit the whole game holding the flag and winning because the opposing team cannot get to that person and vise versa. now i dont see how this is an exploit. yes i will admit its a beat cheap and low, but if the areas are available, and accessible, and if the player has jump boots, how is it an exploit? if the answer is "boo hooo, not everyone has jump boots" well thats not an acceptable answer when jumpboots sell for 5silver or a bit more and ANYONE can get them. again, if the area is accessible then that implies that is useable and use to however you need to, to win. so, since jumpboots are being complained about, then i think a far more unfair exploit if you want to call it that is the super fast runspeed that i see many players have. i know its probably a class trait or whatever, but whats the difference if people are going to complain about boots but not runspeed? not everyone can run 100% and zip across the field. even with potions, journeymans boots, etc, max runspeed you can get is maybe 65% if your lucky, and since the teams are ALWAYS, ALWAYS unbalanced (which is another seperate issue) you dont always get the runspeed buffs that you would normally get--still far less than 100%. during the erolisi events where you run and get as many flowers you can get during valentines day---the runspeed for EVERYONE is cut to ZERO---everyone runs the same so everyone has the same advantage---unlike in battlegrounds. so whats the difference? its ok for others to have 100% runspeed and zip in, get the flag, and return over and over, but its not ok for someone that has jumpboots to win the only way they can?so if you really take a look at it, then the runspeed for everyone should be the same--no matter the trait, skill, or whatever. if others are allowed to run at lightning speed, then by all means people with jumpboots go for it!!

Aule

04-01-2010, 03:45 PM

I think run speed for everybody should be set to 25%, but if you're carrying the flag or the gear then it should drop to 0%. While it's fun for the flag runner, it's a pretty stupid concept to allow the runner to be at 100%, and any body who attempts to stop the runner drops to whatever piddly in-combat run speed they have as soon as they engage them. I know as a bruiser that does a good job as a flag runner, the only thing that can stop me once I get the flag is a good snare, and I can get away from that often enough too with immune control effects (not snare), 2 full heal death saves, another full heal, 12s parry, 10s dodge + heal and 3 hit magic stone skin to go with my 100% run speed. Oh and teleporting 35m forward to an ally acting as an anchor.

Harbringer Doom

04-01-2010, 03:58 PM

Hrm.... limiting runspeed...We're starting to slip down the slippery slope...

Grumble69

04-01-2010, 03:58 PM

Ummmm no. You just need better D against the fast runners. As a brig, I'm not snaring/stunning the first thing that's coming into the room. I sit back. I wait & watch. If my team mates are decent, I will slow that speed guy down most of the time for them to take him out. Yeah, occasionally I get taunted off by the tank they send in ahead of him. Occasionally the snare is resisted. And occasionally my fellow team mates just can't take him out or aren't paying close enough attention. That's all part of the game. Nothing unfair about it at all.

Cerulien

04-01-2010, 04:05 PM

Yes, there is an answer to fast run speed. It is called root/snare/stun/mez and just about every class has some form of one of these. If you are smart, you wait to use them until you see who picks up the flag.

Vorlonxx

04-01-2010, 04:38 PM

<cite>Morrissee@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, there is an answer to fast run speed. It is called root/snare/stun/mez and just about every class has some form of one of these. If you are smart, you wait to use them until you see who picks up the flag.</blockquote>wrong!! root/snare/stun/mez are all resisted over and over, especially with the charms.ive seen wizzards stuns/roots get resisted and the illy's mezz's as well, so no, thats not the answer

bks6721

04-01-2010, 04:47 PM

<cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morrissee@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, there is an answer to fast run speed. It is called root/snare/stun/mez and just about every class has some form of one of these. If you are smart, you wait to use them until you see who picks up the flag.</blockquote>wrong!! root/snare/stun/mez are all resisted over and over, especially with the charms.ive seen wizzards stuns/roots get resisted and the illy's mezz's as well, so no, thats not the answer</blockquote>I've only found 2 classes that have a high resist rate to my roots. Those classes are now greated with a stun, slow instead.I normally play defense in Ganak. I often land my root before the opposing player gets half way to the flag. If they use a potion I follow with a stun and another root. Works 95% of the time as long as I'm left alone. When they send in a Brig to deal with me I often run into some trouble.

Yimway

04-01-2010, 04:51 PM

Getting to areas of the map that were intended for safe spawning areas is exploiting the map. Regardless of using in game items allows you to do it. It's still exploiting the map in a way that it was designed with the intent to prevent.And I have to add for every person I've seen 'legitamately' jump boot up there, I've seen atleast one exploiter using a super jump hack and/or warp to do it.We all know SoE has clearly stated it wasn't intended for the zone play, to continue to abuse it is asking for disciplinary action.Regarding runspeed...This is a touchy subject as some squishier classes are provided more in-combat runspeed bonuses than others. Or melee's are provided in-combat bonuses to compensate for needing to be in range where casters do not have these aa options.I'm all for these 2 changes:1) A resist hit in BG puts you in combat. So even if my snare is resisted, your still reduced to in-combat run speed. I realize this is something that would negatively affect pvp play, but I feel is appropriate for BG play. If casting a spell that is resisted locks the caster in combat, then it should also lock the target in combat.2) The flag and gear should apply a buff that causes -20 in combat speed.

Vorlonxx

04-01-2010, 04:59 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Getting to areas of the map that were intended for safe spawning areas is exploiting the map. Regardless of using in game items allows you to do it. It's still exploiting the map in a way that it was designed with the intent to prevent.And I have to add for every person I've seen 'legitamately' jump boot up there, I've seen atleast one exploiter using a super jump hack and/or warp to do it.We all know SoE has clearly stated it wasn't intended for the zone play, to continue to abuse it is asking for disciplinary action.Regarding runspeed...This is a touchy subject as some squishier classes are provided more in-combat runspeed bonuses than others. Or melee's are provided in-combat bonuses to compensate for needing to be in range where casters do not have these aa options.I'm all for these 2 changes:1) A resist hit in BG puts you in combat. So even if my snare is resisted, your still reduced to in-combat run speed. I realize this is something that would negatively affect pvp play, but I feel is appropriate for BG play. If casting a spell that is resisted locks the caster in combat, then it should also lock the target in combat.2) The flag and gear should apply a buff that causes -20 in combat speed.</blockquote>says who? and where? is this just your opinion? whers it say from any gm or whatever that its an exploit? yea i agree, the warping thing isnt fair, but not the jumpboots. and as you state "area of map for safe respawning" then the area should me made non accessible during game play from the other team and not accessible from players once you leave the spawn area. having it left open makes it accessible therefore, playable.so again, where are you gettin your info from that you say its an exploit?

Yimway

04-01-2010, 05:09 PM

<cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>so again, where are you gettin your info from that you say its an exploit?</blockquote>It was posted by a red name atleast one time in a thread in this very forum. I'm pretty sure its been posted more than once actually.Just as its been stated that a fix is already in the works to prevent the flag from getting there.

yohann koldheart

04-01-2010, 05:14 PM

it all starts with nerfing run speed . then eventualy it will be them nerfing heals cause a healer is keeping a tank alive waaaaa , or nerfing taunts cause a tank is omg taunting you waaaa. nerfing ranger cause they can hit you before you can hit them waaa. there are class abilities that give classes the ability to run fast , that should not be nerfed . learn to deal with it . there are tools to counter it.learn to snare ,root,mez, charm etc, etcgotta love when the cry baby bluebies come here and cry for nerfs cause they are to lazy to counter stuff .

Yimway

04-01-2010, 05:20 PM

<cite>Filthi@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>gotta love when the cry baby bluebies come here and cry for nerfs cause they are to lazy to counter stuff .</blockquote>Thats not the issue, and you should be a mature enough player to understand it. Resist rates on these abilities is already bad, when the resist changes come in from test its going to be even worse.Out of combat runspeed in pvp is primarily about evading and escape. Out of combat runspeed in just one of the BG scenarios is about winning the match.So, when winning the game is about runspeed, controls and reasonable balancing of the ability is required. When runspeed is about outrunning your openent to avoid a fight for the sake of avoiding a fight, it has a different significance.I'd like to ammend my previous recomendations for runspeed in BG's to suggest:3) Locking anyone holding the flag into combat is another reasonable fix.

Grumble69

04-01-2010, 05:25 PM

<cite>Filthi@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it all starts with nerfing run speed . then eventualy it will be them nerfing heals cause a healer is keeping a tank alive waaaaa , or nerfing taunts cause a tank is omg taunting you waaaa. nerfing ranger cause they can hit you before you can hit them waaa. there are class abilities that give classes the ability to run fast , that should not be nerfed . learn to deal with it . there are tools to counter it.learn to snare ,root,mez, charm etc, etcgotta love when the cry baby bluebies come here and cry for nerfs cause they are to lazy to counter stuff .</blockquote>I'm a blue and I'm fine with run speed as it is. :p I play off & def.Not every match has a super speed guy. And if they start nerfing run speed, the middle speed folks will hardly ever get the flag back to base and Ganak just turns into a point-fest match. ...not my favorite style of play.

Neskonlith

04-01-2010, 05:25 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>3) Locking anyone holding the flag into combat is another reasonable fix. </blockquote>In the context of BeeGees: grabbing a flag should be considered a Hostile action against the other team, which then applies in-combat runspeed.No nerfing required, just a recognition of hostility!

Vorlonxx

04-01-2010, 05:36 PM

<cite>Filthi@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it all starts with nerfing run speed . then eventualy it will be them nerfing heals cause a healer is keeping a tank alive waaaaa , or nerfing taunts cause a tank is omg taunting you waaaa. nerfing ranger cause they can hit you before you can hit them waaa. there are class abilities that give classes the ability to run fast , that should not be nerfed . learn to deal with it . there are tools to counter it.learn to snare ,root,mez, charm etc, etcgotta love when the cry baby bluebies come here and cry for nerfs cause they are to lazy to counter stuff .</blockquote>yea, as long as it works in your favor i guess its ok, so of course you'll say thatnot surprised its coming from a nag player, matter of fact now that i think about it, you were one of the onesup top the aqueduct a few days ago LOL.....cant forget a name like yours <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gungo

04-01-2010, 05:49 PM

I dont think a red name ever said using jump boots to get on top of areas is an exploit. They did however say they are going to fix it. I think the flag bearer in ganak should be locked into in combat run speed and unable to use other in combat restricted movement buffs when they have the flag. OR take a health drain like the relic bearer in gears ALTHOUGH I think it should be different then gears. It honestly doesnt make sense in BG and ganak that people atking a flag bearer get locked into combat but the flag bearer flys around at 100% run speed.Honestly hiding a flag in normally hard to reach restricted areas of the map does not add fun to BG and should be fixed. Jumping on top of building in ganak or warping inside towers in smugglers is crap.

Armawk

04-01-2010, 05:59 PM

I think runspeed id mostly not a big issue, but in maybe 1 of 6 matches in ganak there is someone so fast that ALL of my spells that have any slowdown component take longer to cast than he is in my attack range. Thats probably not so good and cant be intended.

Vorlonxx

04-01-2010, 06:01 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think runspeed id mostly not a big issue, but in maybe 1 of 6 matches in ganak there is someone so fast that ALL of my spells that have any slowdown component take longer to cast than he is in my attack range. Thats probably not so good and cant be intended.</blockquote>well i just came from a match in ganak, aqueduct still being used and as far as runseed----players still running at 100% an even when being hit by somethin, they dont stop---they still run at full speed, hows this possible? i know 1st instinct is to say its a hack, but im seein it from many players, not just one.....i know that when i personally engage someone, they just run right out of my range and gain ground---full speed.......[Removed for Content]?i always thought that when engaged, run speed is supposed to power down to combat speed or whatever

Neskonlith

04-01-2010, 06:04 PM

<cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>i always thought that when engaged, run speed is supposed to power down to combat speed or whatever</blockquote>Players need to perform a "hostile action" to be put into combat... as it is, taking the enemy flag is not considered a "hostile action".

Zabom

04-01-2010, 06:32 PM

Properly used runspeed is not the real problem. The problem is, a few people out there are using third party programs to hack their run speed and make it as high as they want. I have been in a match where a flag was run from one base to the other in under 3 seconds. I have been in other matches where a warlock just out of my casting range on the opposite side of klak instantly apeared behind me. Between totems and sprint, I can usually at least make a fair effort to target and root even fast runners. However their are a few people out who run at obviously hacked speeds. SOE of course cannot be blamed for the unethical behavior of a few cheaters, but I would like to know that they are out there and watching for these kind of exploits. Perhaps the knowledge that their may be a GM hiding invisably in any of your BG matches ready to suspend violators might be enough to prevent such abuse.

Edavi

04-01-2010, 07:55 PM

<cite>Horknut@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hrm.... limiting runspeed...We're starting to slip down the slippery slope...</blockquote>this

Vorlonxx

04-01-2010, 08:23 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>i always thought that when engaged, run speed is supposed to power down to combat speed or whatever</blockquote>Players need to perform a "hostile action" to be put into combat... as it is, taking the enemy flag is not considered a "hostile action".</blockquote>im not talking about taking the flag...i mean when i hit someone--meelee or cast an attack on then and it hits for whatever hp's and they still have max runspeed

Shorcon

04-01-2010, 08:36 PM

<cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ummmm no. You just need better D against the fast runners. As a brig, I'm not snaring/stunning the first thing that's coming into the room. I sit back. I wait & watch. If my team mates are decent, I will slow that speed guy down most of the time for them to take him out. Yeah, occasionally I get taunted off by the tank they send in ahead of him. Occasionally the snare is resisted. And occasionally my fellow team mates just can't take him out or aren't paying close enough attention. That's all part of the game. Nothing unfair about it at all.</blockquote>While I agree that there is nothing unfair about run speed I disagree that run speed should stay on someone that has the flag when as soon as I hit them I am at in combat speed and they are not. I think the simple solution would be to place the FC in combat when someone engages them with anything including slow, fear, root, stun, stifle and any I missed. I dont understand why I enter combat and slow but they keep on trucking. If it was just another kill no biggy. Let them use there skills to flee as knowing when to run is definitly part of bg. But when a fc carries and stays out of combat while they are actualy in combat with the other team though they didnt initiate that is unfair. It's much worse with the 100% runspeed but unfair in all cases I feel. FC should be in combat as soon as someone initiates combat with them in any way. FC only though.

Vlahkmaak

04-01-2010, 09:03 PM

<cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>i always thought that when engaged, run speed is supposed to power down to combat speed or whatever</blockquote>Players need to perform a "hostile action" to be put into combat... as it is, taking the enemy flag is not considered a "hostile action".</blockquote>im not talking about taking the flag...i mean when i hit someone--meelee or cast an attack on then and it hits for whatever hp's and they still have max runspeed</blockquote>YOU have performed the hostile action - not the player you hit so they continue to run at max speed. Hitting someone never slows them down unless you use a stun, knockback, root, snare etc. You can hit somene all you want and they will continue to run max speed if they don't cast a temp or perform a hostile action back.Atan,No dev has posted that one cannot jump up there. Roth mentioned once they are looking into it - but they ahve been looking into things since day 1 on pvp servers - thats dev speak for don't cash that check yet on a pvp server issue. * Another thread which vanished, cannot seem to find it atm, claimed a GM suspended him for getting up there but 1 GM on a vanished thread does not make it official. If its not coming from Big O, Timetravelling, or Rothdog its not official in pvp.Run speed should not be disabled in BG - this si someting non pvp players are going to have to deal with just like the rest of us on pvp servers.

Tehom

04-01-2010, 09:21 PM

I feel the act of picking up the flag should put you in combat with any living enemies within 100 meters or so. Being reduced to in-combat runspeed wouldn't negate snatch strategies, but it would make it more equitable between people being trapped in-combat trying to stop those who aren't, and wouldn't affect pvp servers in any way.

pogojoe

04-01-2010, 10:01 PM

I got a 10 day suspension tuesday for going into the aquaduct opposite respawn with the flag. I had a thread titled "suspended for BS" but it was deleted after reaching over 140 posts in 1 day. The common theme of the thread was that the playerbase thinks it is stupid to suspend someone for using spacebar, but I just want to warn everyone here, do not go on the aquaduct or you will get a 10 day vacation. I am currently trying to appeal, but it appears that the GMs have lost my petition because it has been 1.5 days and no response.

Armawk

04-01-2010, 10:28 PM

<cite>pogojoe wrote:</cite><blockquote>The common theme of the thread was that the playerbase thinks it is stupid to suspend someone for using spacebar</blockquote>Yeah thats not how the thread went at all. Many people felt that it was overly harsh but that the tactic needs to stop. The 'using the spacebar' thing was just you and that other guy trying to strawman everyone else into giving up the argument.

pogojoe

04-01-2010, 10:44 PM

I never used the spacebar argument I just remembered it =PGenerally people (including myself) think it is a lame tactic to jump in the respawn (which is why I didn't go there) but the other side is fine when the other team is in the respawn imo.

Taldier

04-01-2010, 11:05 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>so again, where are you gettin your info from that you say its an exploit?</blockquote>It was posted by a red name atleast one time in a thread in this very forum. I'm pretty sure its been posted more than once actually.</blockquote>No.It hasnt been.Anywhere.Calling any action which involves only basic legitimate movement within the 3d world an exploit is a very very slippery slope.

Harbringer Doom

04-01-2010, 11:50 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>so again, where are you gettin your info from that you say its an exploit?</blockquote>It was posted by a red name atleast one time in a thread in this very forum. I'm pretty sure its been posted more than once actually.</blockquote>No.It hasnt been.Anywhere.Calling any action which involves only basic legitimate movement within the 3d world an exploit is a very very slippery slope.</blockquote>There have been plenty of "basic movement within the 3d world" that has ultimately been determined to be an "exploit" and was corrected. Sticking the word "legitimate" in there is only your opinion.The slippery slope is not created by designating certain tactics as explotive, its created by saying "no jumpy boots"... or "glide abilities"... or "run speed"... or dwarves...

Yimway

04-02-2010, 12:16 AM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Calling any action which involves only basic legitimate movement within the 3d world an exploit is a very very slippery slope.</blockquote>Lol, and the fact that I can and have done legitimate things in game to create a dupe isn't an exploit either?You sir, seem to think hack == exploit.Achieving a result that wasn't intended to be within the ruleset, that has been confirmed not intended, and has been confirmed suspended for being observed / reported using, that pretty much is the mmo definition of exploit.For your refference, there was a 'legitimate movement within the 3d world exploit' that allowed you to kill things without being hurt. It was an exploit and banned for as well.Your standing on a straw arguement.

Zabom

04-02-2010, 01:36 AM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>so again, where are you gettin your info from that you say its an exploit?</blockquote>It was posted by a red name atleast one time in a thread in this very forum. I'm pretty sure its been posted more than once actually.</blockquote>No.It hasnt been.Anywhere.Calling any action which involves only basic legitimate movement within the 3d world an exploit is a very very slippery slope.</blockquote>It seems to me that you can get the football into the endzone by running out of bounds. You can also throw a soccerball into the goal or tuck a basketball under your arm and run across the court. All of these are very easy to perform actions, but they all are against the rules, so they have appropriate penalties. Battlegrounds is a game. It is more sport then PVP. Just because you are capable of doing something does not mean it is within the rules.....it's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

Blambil

04-02-2010, 01:50 AM

<cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think runspeed id mostly not a big issue, but in maybe 1 of 6 matches in ganak there is someone so fast that ALL of my spells that have any slowdown component take longer to cast than he is in my attack range. Thats probably not so good and cant be intended.</blockquote>well i just came from a match in ganak, aqueduct still being used and as far as runseed----players still running at 100% an even when being hit by somethin, they dont stop---they still run at full speed, hows this possible? i know 1st instinct is to say its a hack, but im seein it from many players, not just one.....i know that when i personally engage someone, they just run right out of my range and gain ground---full speed.......[Removed for Content]?i always thought that when engaged, run speed is supposed to power down to combat speed or whatever</blockquote>I agree with that 100%.. far too often I'll see players who I root/snare (which has a dmg comp) watch the snare tick by, and they still run away at full speed..

The_Cheeseman

04-02-2010, 08:25 AM

Battlegrounds are about player vs. player combat, which to me means that players join together and attack one-another's bases to capture their flag and return triumphantly to their base with it. Having one dude run really fast back and forth is pretty much boring and seems to be against the entire purpose of the activity. One really fast dude and 11 observers is not what I signed-up for when I queue into BGs. I want a battle, not a foot race.

EverRude

04-02-2010, 08:48 AM

Let me ask this. If you had 2 coordinated groups on Ganak do you think the runspeed of 1 person on the other team would make it an easy win for them? What about the aqueduct? As lame as it is, do you think 2 coordinated groups would find themselves loosing because one dude on the other team had they flag up there? Both of these things are tactics. They can be countered by a good group. I don't believe the devs should change BG gameplay to make it winnable by an uncoordinated PUG unless they're playing an even worse PUG. Face it. No matter what they nerf or limit sometimes your PUG is gonna suck more and you will loose. Removing or limiting abilities like these only serve to make the game easier for PUG but more boring for coordinated play. At some point there will be tournament play. Guild vs guild, server vs server. Limiting tactics and abilities only serves to reduce those games to who-has-the-best-gear slaughterfest. Boring. I want more tactics and strategy in those battles not less. Both teams will bring a fast runner. Both teams will have a strategy for countering a fast runner. And as much as I dislike the aqueduct thing I have no doubt both teams will have a strategy to get the flag whereever it goes. Stop calling for nerfs to abilities because you or your PUG suck. Take your 1 token and try again.

Taldier

04-02-2010, 12:01 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Calling any action which involves only basic legitimate movement within the 3d world an exploit is a very very slippery slope.</blockquote>Lol, and the fact that I can and have done legitimate things in game to create a dupe isn't an exploit either?You sir, seem to think hack == exploit.Achieving a result that wasn't intended to be within the ruleset, that has been confirmed not intended, and has been confirmed suspended for being observed / reported using, that pretty much is the mmo definition of exploit.For your refference, there was a 'legitimate movement within the 3d world exploit' that allowed you to kill things without being hurt. It was an exploit and banned for as well.Your standing on a straw arguement.</blockquote>Solid geometry exists in order for players to collide with it.You cant do something in game that is legitimate which creates a dupe because duping is by defintion illegitimate.Player models having collision with solid terrain within the game world is not illegitimate.If someone were to find a hole in the geometry and jump into it to hide, this would be the equivalent exploit to which you are reffering.If someone sees a clearly visible solid object...and they run forward and jump, landing on top of it...and then they turn slightly and say "OH look Another clearly visible solid object!"...so they jump to the second clearly visible solid object...this should never be considered an exploit unless they put a giant warning message on your screen every time you are about to jump somewhere that is unintended.The behavior is obvious, the behavior appears intended to anyone rational, there is terrain, that terrain has been intentionally made solid, you are in a wargame simulation, terrain is generally used to gain tactical advantages in wargames.<cite>Zabom wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vorlonxx wrote:</cite><blockquote>so again, where are you gettin your info from that you say its an exploit?</blockquote>It was posted by a red name atleast one time in a thread in this very forum. I'm pretty sure its been posted more than once actually.</blockquote>No.It hasnt been.Anywhere.Calling any action which involves only basic legitimate movement within the 3d world an exploit is a very very slippery slope.</blockquote>It seems to me that you can get the football into the endzone by running out of bounds. You can also throw a soccerball into the goal or tuck a basketball under your arm and run across the court. All of these are very easy to perform actions, but they all are against the rules, so they have appropriate penalties. Battlegrounds is a game. It is more sport then PVP. Just because you are capable of doing something does not mean it is within the rules.....it's not that difficult a concept to grasp.</blockquote>Most sports have rules listed somewhere? Generally the referees dont just run out onto the field and kick people out of the stadium just because the other team complains that they are losing.The proper analogy is more along the lines of the first guy ever to throw a pass in football instead of just running with the ball..."is it illegal?" "who knows, there arent any rules at all yet, and this whole throwing things adds even more complexity to the game".

Yimway

04-02-2010, 12:14 PM

<cite>Blambil@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with that 100%.. far too often I'll see players who I root/snare (which has a dmg comp) watch the snare tick by, and they still run away at full speed.. </blockquote>Report these individuals. If your sname lands and their movement speed isn't affected, it is the result of use of a speed hack.It is relatively easy for a GM to investigate and ban players using them in this regards.

Yimway

04-02-2010, 12:21 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If someone sees a clearly visible solid object...and they run forward and jump, landing on top of it...and then they turn slightly and say "OH look Another clearly visible solid object!"...so they jump to the second clearly visible solid object...this should never be considered an exploit unless they put a giant warning message on your screen every time you are about to jump somewhere that is unintended.</blockquote>However, if you find a spot by moving a step to the left or a step to the right causes a mob to path 300 meters back and forth due to pathing issues, and you exploit the mechanic to kill it, your still in violation and can be banned/suspended.It is very clear that getting back to the spawn area was not intended by the map designers (or why would there be a fix in the works for it?). It is very clear that people are getting warning/suspensions for repeatedly abusing this 'tactic'.Defend it all you want, it wasn't intended and is a method of trivializing the zone that was not part of the original design. Any method of trivializing content can be actionable if SoE deems it egregious enough. Be that standing on a rock, calling to a pet, or using jump items to get an item to a region of zone space it was not intended to reach.

Taldier

04-02-2010, 12:24 PM

Yimway

04-02-2010, 12:30 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Grandmaster's_Freedom_of_Action">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Grandmast...eedom_of_Action</a>Not everything you dont know about is a hack.Speed hackers will be moving over 100% runspeed, without hacks, moving over 100% is impossible.</blockquote>Absolutely, but look at the reuse on it.However, speed hacks can be used to lock your speed at 60% regardless of effects placed on you as well. Just as speed hacks can be used to lock your speed at 0% to negate fear effects. Speed hacks are being used to trivialize BG's without dialing in >100% speeds.You find someone repeatedly getting runspeed effects landing on them in a match, with no effect to their movement, I'd report them.I know I've watched someone locked at 100% run back and forth 4 times in a matter of minutes, that no combination of potions and signets would have countered the number of detriments landed.Ultimately, the best sollution is to make holding the flag a hostile action and lock everyone to combat run speed abilities. This in the end will make these matches more interesting to play.

Vlahkmaak

04-02-2010, 12:36 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Blambil@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with that 100%.. far too often I'll see players who I root/snare (which has a dmg comp) watch the snare tick by, and they still run away at full speed.. </blockquote>Report these individuals. If your sname lands and their movement speed isn't affected, it is the result of use of a speed hack.It is relatively easy for a GM to investigate and ban players using them in this regards.</blockquote>FIRST - many blue players are not getting this part. Causing DAMAGE to someone does not put them on combat. THEY have to initiate a hostile action in return. You can damage someone all you want and they can choose to run away. "If your sname lands and their movement speed isn't affected, it is the result of use of a speed hack." - AtanOR they were a warden.OR your snare was resisted.OR they used their cure spell.OR they use a cure pot.OR maybe they pressed the sprint button - another "exploited" game mechanic?OR they were a bruiser and closemind/self cured.Your smarter than that post Atan - I have read good stuff by you on the guardian forum. In the pvp enviornment you are going to find that very often what you thought landed did not and/or the other guy/gal is temp immune to your CC. By all means report suspected behavior but most suspected behaivor these days is an outright witch hunt becuase pve players do not understand pvp mechanics.Years ago pvp players screamed bloody murder about rangers + long arm in KOS decimating people from afar on top of extremely hard to negoiate cliff faces and other crags. Dev response was - deal with it. We learned to over come and adapt. PVE players are 4 years behind the curve in the pvp enviornment. If the devs want people to not get on top of the walls of the citadel in Ganak or the aqueduct then they need to place an invisible barrier their or a portal which auto ports people where they do want them to play.Running on top of walls, buildings, and other areas to get a different view, a better shot, for cover and concealment is a natural thing in pvp. BG, as watered down as it is, is PVP. Its our rule set. UNTIL they change the rules (which they do willy nilly on pvp servers these days) it is not exploitive use of terrain. Standing on top of the wall of the citadel is just common sense. It is not exploiting a pathing issue.On my ranger, my necro, and even my guardian I can get ranged shots on people standing on top of the wall. All this QQing about it is a waste of dev time when there are REAL issues that need to be fixed. Do what 90% of the pvp community does - have a pair of jumpy boots equiped on your hot bar and maybe a floating cloak (the cloaks drop like candy of third floor EH mobs BTW). That way when that ranger or other toon is standing half way down a cliff face on a 6" piece of rock you can get to them too.

Taldier

04-02-2010, 12:36 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If someone sees a clearly visible solid object...and they run forward and jump, landing on top of it...and then they turn slightly and say "OH look Another clearly visible solid object!"...so they jump to the second clearly visible solid object...this should never be considered an exploit unless they put a giant warning message on your screen every time you are about to jump somewhere that is unintended.</blockquote>However, if you find a spot by moving a step to the left or a step to the right causes a mob to path 300 meters back and forth due to pathing issues, and you exploit the mechanic to kill it, your still in violation and can be banned/suspended.Pve is a seperate world from pvp. I can only hope that most players are not stupid enough to run 300 meters away from you everytime you step to the side.It is very clear that getting back to the spawn area was not intended by the map designers (or why would there be a fix in the works for it?). It is very clear that people are getting warning/suspensions for repeatedly abusing this 'tactic'.And the issue again is the spawn area. Im just talking about any piece of terrain in the zone. Move the spawn, make the flag dissapear when it goes there, who cares. Just dont attack people for standing on legitimate pieces of terrain.Defend it all you want, it wasn't intended and is a method of trivializing the zone that was not part of the original design. Any method of trivializing content can be actionable if SoE deems it egregious enough. Be that standing on a rock, calling to a pet, or using jump items to get an item to a region of zone space it was not intended to reach.Pve mobs are stupid, pve mobs can be trivialized.You cannnot trivialize pvp content because there is No Content to trivialize. There is no magic script that can be exploited. The only content in the context of pvp is other players, most of whom are hopefully more intelligent than the mobs they are used to killing.</blockquote>

Yimway

04-02-2010, 12:42 PM

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Blambil@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree with that 100%.. far too often I'll see players who I root/snare (which has a dmg comp) watch the snare tick by, and they still run away at full speed.. </blockquote>Report these individuals. If your sname lands and their movement speed isn't affected, it is the result of use of a speed hack.It is relatively easy for a GM to investigate and ban players using them in this regards.</blockquote>Your smarter than that post Atan - I have read good stuff by you on the guardian forum. In the pvp enviornment you are going to find that very often what you thought landed did not and/or the other guy/gal is temp immune to your CC. By all means report suspected behavior but most suspected behaivor these days is an outright witch hunt becuase pve players do not understand pvp mechanics.</blockquote>Yes, I didn't list every caveat for runspeed adjustments that apparently needs to be listed anytime you post on pvp forums.However, its still not hard to see repeated behavior and discover who is speed hacking and who isn't. Certainly when you do understand all the different means of countering them.But like I said, there are some I've observered clearly using it, it wasn't hard to see by the number of effects landed over a period of a few minutes without any observable change in speed.And apparently some people needed educating about speedhacks, cause they absolutely are used by players to lock in speeds under 100%. I can't link to the forums where this is talked and bragged about by exploiters, but I can only say those with access to these tools use it wisely in this manner as its harder for players to detect.

Yimway

04-02-2010, 12:45 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is very clear that getting back to the spawn area was not intended by the map designers (or why would there be a fix in the works for it?). It is very clear that people are getting warning/suspensions for repeatedly abusing this 'tactic'.</blockquote>And the issue again is the spawn area. Im just talking about any piece of terrain in the zone. Move the spawn, make the flag dissapear when it goes there, who cares. Just dont attack people for standing on legitimate pieces of terrain.</blockquote>Your arguement is with SoE then, as their stance on it is very clear.

Taldier

04-02-2010, 12:47 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is very clear that getting back to the spawn area was not intended by the map designers (or why would there be a fix in the works for it?). It is very clear that people are getting warning/suspensions for repeatedly abusing this 'tactic'.</blockquote>And the issue again is the spawn area. Im just talking about any piece of terrain in the zone. Move the spawn, make the flag dissapear when it goes there, who cares. Just dont attack people for standing on legitimate pieces of terrain.</blockquote>Your arguement is with SoE then, as their stance on it is very clear.</blockquote>Yes, their stance on it for the past several years has been very clear...the opposite of what you are claiming.And you have yet to show anything other than your constant assertions to show a leadership decision to change policy.

Vlahkmaak

04-02-2010, 12:50 PM

Do people cheat - yes - and I agree with you: report them however it is a reletively small number of people. In all my BG matches I have seen 1 warper and I still had to question if it was warping or if it was really, really, bad lag.

threat111

04-02-2010, 12:52 PM

Welcome to PVP.Personally I goto the BG's just to kill people. I dont really care about the "script" of the particular scenarios. In most cases killing people gives adequate amount of points to achieve victory anyway. The only exception would be Ganak. Where it is exetremely fun to just grab the flag and rack up 400 points by killing the other team.In my eyes, and untill a red name states differantly, using jump boots to get to "stratigic" locations on any map is not only fair but expected.

Yimway

04-02-2010, 12:55 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your arguement is with SoE then, as their stance on it is very clear.</blockquote>Yes, their stance on it for the past several years has been very clear...the opposite of what you are claiming.And you have yet to show anything other than your constant assertions to show a leadership decision to change policy.</blockquote>Thier tracker isn't working and I'm not going to re-read every thread in this forum to find the refference for you.The short answer is, Dev post stated the zone was being changed to prevent the flag from being able to reach this area (as it wasn't intended).There was another comment in a thread that was deleted, which I can't link to for obvious reasons.As already stated, SoE has begun disciplining people who repeatedly abuse it.Lastly, you seem to want to think BG == PVP. I assure you, it is less of an extension of pvp, and the design is more of a 'sporting event' where the rules will be set to make the play in these zones to more closely match the design of engagement. Ultimately, it will be more restrictive than pvp ruleset if they intend to maintain this 'sporting event' placard.<edit><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=475058" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=475058</a>Someone PM'd me the link. As stated, a fix is currently in QA to prevent this tactic from being used.</edit>Continued abuse of something that a fix is in the works for has been punished by SoE in the past.

Taldier

04-02-2010, 01:08 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Your arguement is with SoE then, as their stance on it is very clear.</blockquote>Yes, their stance on it for the past several years has been very clear...the opposite of what you are claiming.And you have yet to show anything other than your constant assertions to show a leadership decision to change policy.</blockquote>Thier tracker isn't working and I'm not going to re-read every thread in this forum to find the refference for you.The short answer is, Dev post stated the zone was being changed to prevent the flag from being able to reach this area (as it wasn't intended)."this area" reffering to the spawn point, yes, I just said the exact same thing. This is irrelevant to the general policy of using terrain to evade or attack from.There was another comment in a thread that was deleted, which I can't link to for obvious reasons.As already stated, SoE has begun disciplining people who repeatedly abuse it.The only example I can find of this is one person (the deleted thread) who was apparently suspended by a gm. Gm's are not developers. Gm's are customer service people who respond to grief petitions. If the history of pvp servers tells us anything, its that gm's with absolutely no pvp experience are occasionally called in and make decisions completely against traditional and future policy.These decisions are generally later defended as one time occurances and soe avoids having to discipline the employee.Lastly, you seem to want to think BG == PVP. I assure you, it is less of an extension of pvp, and the design is more of a 'sporting event' where the rules will be set to make the play in these zones to more closely match the design of engagement. Ultimately, it will be more restrictive than pvp ruleset if they intend to maintain this 'sporting event' placard.As I said, sporting events have rules, they also have rule books.You cannot call a penalty if the rule against running offsides hasnt even been invented yet.You cannot expect players to follow rules that they are not told about.Edit:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=475058" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=475058</a>Someone PM'd me the link. As stated, a fix is currently in QA to prevent this tactic from being used.Continued abuse of something that a fix is in the works for has been punished by SoE in the past.And again, completely irrelevant to players using terrain unrelated to the spawn point in combat.</blockquote>

Uinael_Guk

04-03-2010, 12:47 AM

I don't care at all about gnome boots, jumping to hidden places and sniping (since if you can hit someone, they can hit you back) or even fast run speed, but I agree with the guy who said once they pick up the flag, it should be considered being in combat. It would solve a lot of the problems on that map imo. If you want the flag, you have to fight for it.The map gets really dumb when one guy can literally go in with sanctuary, death march, or any other procs, grab flag and he's off. Once you cast on him, you get put into combat and it's easy street from there. All the guy really has to do is be able to resist the spells inside bases because on open field, once you even stop to cast root/snare/fear, he's out of range.

Prestissimo

04-03-2010, 06:01 AM

<cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't care at all about gnome boots, jumping to hidden places and sniping (since if you can hit someone, they can hit you back) or even fast run speed, but I agree with the guy who said once they pick up the flag, it should be considered being in combat. It would solve a lot of the problems on that map imo. If you want the flag, you (should) have to fight for it.The map gets really dumb when one guy can literally go in with sanctuary, death march, or any other procs, grab flag and he's off. Once you cast on him, you get put into combat and it's easy street from there. All the guy really has to do is be able to resist the spells inside bases because on open field, once you even stop to cast root/snare/fear, he's out of range.</blockquote>That bolded part in particul is the part that I agree the most with.Taldier: I guess that means that in sporting events it's ok to use any steroid not listed in the rule books under the steroids prohibited section or that by altering one of the innert ingrediants that it makes any steroid fair game? That it's ok to kick/hit players in places not listed in the book as being off limits or in manners that aren't listed as being considered fouls or punishable and if all contact is off limits that using mittens or gloves or taking off and using your shoe/helmet to prevent direct physical contact with your body makes it ok? That intentionally "passing" or shooting the ball/puck/w.e. into an opposing player's groin or face until the rule says otherwise is ok? Just because it doesn't explicitly say that you cannot do x particular action in exact said manner doesn't mean it's ok. If they were to put every single last little thing into the rule books, you'd end up with ludicrous rules that are such far tangents of possibilities that you'd have to spend decades reading every exception purely because some clown tried to find any way possible to cheat without technically cheating.People who try to find any loop hole they can to bypass intended civility and structured function are the exact reason there is a law in Oregon that it is illegal to tie up your giraffe on any part of the street including durring a parade, in paid parking spots and on sundays and it is illegal to skinny dip in the memorial fountain as a means to protest the law making it illegal to eat ice cream on Sundays (which hasn't been enforced for many years).Does any reasonable person pay attention to such laws? Not really, but there shouldn't need to be rules for things like that in the first place. There shouldn't need to be rules written in triplicate dictating the exact coordinates of accepted game play or the exact angles of visibility and % of the body in which you must be able to see the opposing player to hit them. It's a game for crying out loud, why can't you just go out there and fight like a civilized and rational person without trying to find a way to bypass the intended sport in the game?

pogojoe

04-03-2010, 10:23 AM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't care at all about gnome boots, jumping to hidden places and sniping (since if you can hit someone, they can hit you back) or even fast run speed, but I agree with the guy who said once they pick up the flag, it should be considered being in combat. It would solve a lot of the problems on that map imo. If you want the flag, you (should) have to fight for it.The map gets really dumb when one guy can literally go in with sanctuary, death march, or any other procs, grab flag and he's off. Once you cast on him, you get put into combat and it's easy street from there. All the guy really has to do is be able to resist the spells inside bases because on open field, once you even stop to cast root/snare/fear, he's out of range.</blockquote>That bolded part in particul is the part that I agree the most with.Taldier: I guess that means that in sporting events it's ok to use any steroid not listed in the rule books under the steroids prohibited section or that by altering one of the innert ingrediants that it makes any steroid fair game? That it's ok to kick/hit players in places not listed in the book as being off limits or in manners that aren't listed as being considered fouls or punishable and if all contact is off limits that using mittens or gloves or taking off and using your shoe/helmet to prevent direct physical contact with your body makes it ok? That intentionally "passing" or shooting the ball/puck/w.e. into an opposing player's groin or face until the rule says otherwise is ok? Just because it doesn't explicitly say that you cannot do x particular action in exact said manner doesn't mean it's ok. If they were to put every single last little thing into the rule books, you'd end up with ludicrous rules that are such far tangents of possibilities that you'd have to spend decades reading every exception purely because some clown tried to find any way possible to cheat without technically cheating.People who try to find any loop hole they can to bypass intended civility and structured function are the exact reason there is a law in Oregon that it is illegal to tie up your giraffe on any part of the street including durring a parade, in paid parking spots and on sundays and it is illegal to skinny dip in the memorial fountain as a means to protest the law making it illegal to eat ice cream on Sundays (which hasn't been enforced for many years).Does any reasonable person pay attention to such laws? Not really, but there shouldn't need to be rules for things like that in the first place. There shouldn't need to be rules written in triplicate dictating the exact coordinates of accepted game play or the exact angles of visibility and % of the body in which you must be able to see the opposing player to hit them. It's a game for crying out loud, why can't you just go out there and fight like a civilized and rational person without trying to find a way to bypass the intended sport in the game?</blockquote>You are so offbase with your sports analogy it is not even funny. In almost every sport there is a penelty for your "That it's ok to kick/hit players in places not listed in the book as being off limits or in manners that aren't listed as being considered fouls or punishable and if all contact is off limits that using mittens or gloves or taking off and using your shoe/helmet to prevent direct physical contact with your body makes it ok? That intentionally "passing" or shooting the ball/puck/w.e. into an opposing player's groin or face until the rule says otherwise is ok? "In every sport I know, mitten or not doing something listed in the rulebook falls into the same rule as the rulebook states. It doesn't matter if you punch someone with your fist in football or have a glove on when you do so. In hockey fighting is actually allowed but must be stopped when the ref says so or additional penelties beyond the 5 minute major will be assessed. Anything in hockey / football that is beyond a listed specific penelty is placed under "unnecessary roughness" this involves pushing, shoving, pulling, grabbing up to the referee's discretion.Steroid lists to my knowledge are the only lists that matters, some over the counter steroids are LEGAL in baseball while others listed are not, which is why they have steroid list.Sports with lack of direct rules, such as soccer where all penelties are up to the ref lead to players diving, constant coaching complaints and an overall unbalanced game. One ref could let people play on during "bad tackles" while another may blow the whistle at every infraction, that becomes part of the sport though, adapting to the ref and learning what you can and can not do, while you try to draw penelties by fakely being hit and diving in the 18 yard box. Is that fun? Having no clue what is and is not legal? You have a general knowledge but beyond that it is gray. I recall when I was playing soccer in high school, I was a sweeper and would be the last man back chasing guys down who were on a break away. In soccer any tackle that contacts the ball first is LEGAL regarless of what happens to the tackled player after. I can not however push / throw anyone after I make my tackle, which means that If I do a front to front sliding tackle and I hit the ball first, I can't then use my arms to throw the target. However, on breakaways, I would get along side people, Drop down in front of them with my leg on the ball, they would obviously fall flat on their face because they are trying to dribble, my leg stops the ball, they try to dribble and can't through my leg and they fall foward (legal move) mos refs had no issue, most opposing coaches cried foul and yes, 1 ref called it a foul because realistically it is up to the ref. Gray rules do not make fun sports because you will never get the same result. Ganak rules for instance, I see people on the aquaducts all the time, in fact the BG I got suspended for, the opposing team was in his respawn with our flag, I went to our aquaduct opposite respawn with their flag. I get a 10 day suspension for exploiting, the other guy doesnt get talked to. And I contacted him to ask and he was never talked to by a GM. Why is it against the rules for some and not others? Make a list of everyone you see on an aquaduct and see how many are suspended, I bet none. SOE is just banning at random now and doesn't really care.My last point is of course about your "without trying to bypass the intended sport in the game" In battlegrounds this is not open world PVP. Objective is first, PVP is second. In the X2 (the topic of my monologue) the sport of the game is capture the flag, you run, get the flag and capture it, if yours is taken you protect it. That is the sport. Standing in the middle fighting for 15 minutes is NOT the sport. It would be like playing football and just practicing punting on first down to each other to see who can punt better instead of actually trying to score. The touchdown in the X2 is a flag capture, the things you do to capture it is the plays.Most of the time I don't cast one offensive spell in the X2 besides root yet I capture 3 flags. I am doing the objective versus sitting in the middle fighting. Which is why I win 90% of my X2 matches.

Uinael_Guk

04-03-2010, 11:52 AM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>As I said, sporting events have rules, they also have rule books.You cannot call a penalty if the rule against running offsides hasnt even been invented yet.You cannot expect players to follow rules that they are not told about.</blockquote></blockquote>I agree with this, but rules are changed and fixed all the time to better serve the sport. The NHL just recently banned blindside hits to the head (about time), the NFL finally changed the stupid sudden death OT rule which largely based things on a coin flip.Until they're fixed / changed, I have no problem with players using what they have available to them to win matches, as long as it's not anything 3rd party (speed hacks, warps, etc). It's not our job as players to make up sandbox rules because some cheesy things are slow to be corrected. Like I posted above, I hate how fast players can just grab the flag and run without being in combat, which is why I came here to post it so hopefully the devs will realize it and make a change to that rule.

SageGaspar

04-03-2010, 12:00 PM

<cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Battlegrounds are about player vs. player combat, which to me means that players join together and attack one-another's bases to capture their flag and return triumphantly to their base with it. Having one dude run really fast back and forth is pretty much boring and seems to be against the entire purpose of the activity. One really fast dude and 11 observers is not what I signed-up for when I queue into BGs. I want a battle, not a foot race.</blockquote>I agree with this completely, if you want the flag you should have to fight your way out. I don't care if popping immunities and taking off at 100% speed to get on top of the most trivially defendable point in battlegrounds is an exploit or not, it's just boring gameplay for both teams. The point of BGs is to make PvP that most people actually enjoy.I personally would not expect the ruleset they slapped together over a couple months and pushed live with little testing to be the final word. It might hurt a little to lose your two minute Ganak farms, but dry those eyes and learn how to actually fight and it'll be more fun in the end, I promise!

Uinael_Guk

04-03-2010, 12:03 PM

<cite>pogojoe wrote:</cite><blockquote>My last point is of course about your "without trying to bypass the intended sport in the game" In battlegrounds this is not open world PVP. Objective is first, PVP is second. In the X2 (the topic of my monologue) the sport of the game is capture the flag, you run, get the flag and capture it, if yours is taken you protect it. That is the sport. Standing in the middle fighting for 15 minutes is NOT the sport. It would be like playing football and just practicing punting on first down to each other to see who can punt better instead of actually trying to score. The touchdown in the X2 is a flag capture, the things you do to capture it is the plays.Most of the time I don't cast one offensive spell in the X2 besides root yet I capture 3 flags. I am doing the objective versus sitting in the middle fighting. Which is why I win 90% of my X2 matches.</blockquote>To use a metaphor of my own. Right now it would be like in the NFL, as soon as the play started, the RB was able to run full speed. The defense however, they could run full speed until they stuck out their arms or made any attempt to tackle the runner, but then they were forced to slow jog after that.Now, of course to make it more like the NFL they would have to allow players to maintain their run speed in combat, and that's not going to happen, so why not equal the playing field by putting the flag carrier in combat?

Ralpmet

04-03-2010, 12:49 PM

Deep in the overgrown keeps of the Kunark jungle, a bloodthirsty group of Iksar is holding tournaments in the ruins of their great ancestors. Following their cultural practices of swarming fortresses, annihilating enemies and stealing their treasures, the tournament games are meant to mimic the violent event, not as tradition, but as sport! Rewards await those who are victorious including combat secrets, battle techniques and other valuable information that has been passed down through the ages.To me, that means that you should have to kill the other people in their base before stealing the flag. The problem with this is respawning while your group is in combat, without revival sickness or a power penalty. It's a zergfest.

Tehom

04-03-2010, 01:07 PM

<cite>SageGaspar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Battlegrounds are about player vs. player combat, which to me means that players join together and attack one-another's bases to capture their flag and return triumphantly to their base with it. Having one dude run really fast back and forth is pretty much boring and seems to be against the entire purpose of the activity. One really fast dude and 11 observers is not what I signed-up for when I queue into BGs. I want a battle, not a foot race.</blockquote>I agree with this completely, if you want the flag you should have to fight your way out. I don't care if popping immunities and taking off at 100% speed to get on top of the most trivially defendable point in battlegrounds is an exploit or not, it's just boring gameplay for both teams. The point of BGs is to make PvP that most people actually enjoy.I personally would not expect the ruleset they slapped together over a couple months and pushed live with little testing to be the final word. It might hurt a little to lose your two minute Ganak farms, but dry those eyes and learn how to actually fight and it'll be more fun in the end, I promise!</blockquote>This. I hate Ganak because I queue in battlegrounds to actually fight players. I find watching people chase some jumping guy with a bright flag strapped to his back as he zips across the map to be unspeakably boring, and it'll get far worse after the resist changes go live and it becomes effectively impossible to kill players like that.

Taldier

04-03-2010, 03:35 PM

<cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pogojoe wrote:</cite><blockquote>My last point is of course about your "without trying to bypass the intended sport in the game" In battlegrounds this is not open world PVP. Objective is first, PVP is second. In the X2 (the topic of my monologue) the sport of the game is capture the flag, you run, get the flag and capture it, if yours is taken you protect it. That is the sport. Standing in the middle fighting for 15 minutes is NOT the sport. It would be like playing football and just practicing punting on first down to each other to see who can punt better instead of actually trying to score. The touchdown in the X2 is a flag capture, the things you do to capture it is the plays.Most of the time I don't cast one offensive spell in the X2 besides root yet I capture 3 flags. I am doing the objective versus sitting in the middle fighting. Which is why I win 90% of my X2 matches.</blockquote>To use a metaphor of my own. Right now it would be like in the NFL, as soon as the play started, the RB was able to run full speed. The defense however, they could run full speed until they stuck out their arms or made any attempt to tackle the runner, but then they were forced to slow jog after that.Now, of course to make it more like the NFL they would have to allow players to maintain their run speed in combat, and that's not going to happen, so why not equal the playing field by putting the flag carrier in combat?</blockquote>That just flips it in the other direction.If you want it to be more "'fair" you need to either decrease everyones runspeed or increase everyones incombat runspeed.Dropping only the flag carrier down to 0 just means that they are forced to engage every single member of your team multiple times as you respawn and run back (at full out of combat runspeed) before they can get to their base.To use your analogy, this would be if the only way you were allowed to score is by having one really big guy slowly march down the field with the entire opposing team hanging on his back.Basically, unless one team massively overwhelms the other and can just spawn camp them, this just reduces the game to a massive zerg fight in the middle of the zone.

Taldier

04-03-2010, 03:52 PM

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taldier: I guess that means that in sporting events it's ok to use any steroid not listed in the rule books under the steroids prohibited section or that by altering one of the innert ingrediants that it makes any steroid fair game? That it's ok to kick/hit players in places not listed in the book as being off limits or in manners that aren't listed as being considered fouls or punishable and if all contact is off limits that using mittens or gloves or taking off and using your shoe/helmet to prevent direct physical contact with your body makes it ok? That intentionally "passing" or shooting the ball/puck/w.e. into an opposing player's groin or face until the rule says otherwise is ok? Just because it doesn't explicitly say that you cannot do x particular action in exact said manner doesn't mean it's ok. If they were to put every single last little thing into the rule books, you'd end up with ludicrous rules that are such far tangents of possibilities that you'd have to spend decades reading every exception purely because some clown tried to find any way possible to cheat without technically cheating.People who try to find any loop hole they can to bypass intended civility and structured function are the exact reason there is a law in Oregon that it is illegal to tie up your giraffe on any part of the street including durring a parade, in paid parking spots and on sundays and it is illegal to skinny dip in the memorial fountain as a means to protest the law making it illegal to eat ice cream on Sundays (which hasn't been enforced for many years).Does any reasonable person pay attention to such laws? Not really, but there shouldn't need to be rules for things like that in the first place. There shouldn't need to be rules written in triplicate dictating the exact coordinates of accepted game play or the exact angles of visibility and % of the body in which you must be able to see the opposing player to hit them. It's a game for crying out loud, why can't you just go out there and fight like a civilized and rational person without trying to find a way to bypass the intended sport in the game?</blockquote>Your analogies are poorly developed and worthless. Any sport out there has some overarching umbrella ruleset which covers these things. The rulebook doesnt need to list every single place you cant hit someone and every single thing you cant hit them with.The point is that bg's currently have no seperate rules listed anywhere, and the devs dont seem to be in any hurry to provide them for us.Seeing as when I kill you in the bg, it doesnt cause your computer to kick you in the balls (someone should start working on this), its not like you are causing physical harm to someone by killing them as long as it falls within the accepted practices of the traditional pvp ruleset.All we have to go on as rules for bg's at the moment is the rules for pvp. And no one is breaking any of those except for the people actually hacking or purposely creating lag spikes.As an aside, the purpose for laying out specific rules in this kind of game (which is completely different from a real life sport despite all our colorful analogies) should be fairly obvious.Working from a table-top background, I can tell you that it is quite possible for two close friends to quickly advance to the desire to strangle each other over whether that scout gets to move 1D6 or 2D6 through the forest because they forgot to specify what type of terrain it was before the battle started.Can someone at soe hq flip a coin so we can figure out what the ruleset for bg's is?

Avirodar

04-03-2010, 04:20 PM

Locking the flag carrier run speed to default, with no buffs able to take effect, would solve a lot of issues.It would become much easier to identify speed hackers, both on part of players and SOE.It would require more strategy and function by teams, as a whole, to capture the flag.It would encourage more killing/combat on a map that is light on action.It would take the focus off a handful of class types that are effectively "[Removed for Content]" for flag running.Comments about hackers using utilities to lock their runspeed to 100%, regardless of being in combat or not, snared or not, etc, is concerning. I can only hope SOE permanently bans any account caught using such exploits. Any player who feels the need to run speed hacks on battlegrounds must live a very hollow existance.

Darkonx

04-03-2010, 05:48 PM

If I want to fight the other team 12v1, is going into THEIR spawn to fight them 12v1 an exploit? (In Ganak) I realize bringing the flag back to your respawn point/an aqueduct gives you clear tactical advantages, but, is fighting them 12v1 an exploit as well? Would like clarification.

Uinael_Guk

04-03-2010, 08:43 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite>That just flips it in the other direction.If you want it to be more "'fair" you need to either decrease everyones runspeed or increase everyones incombat runspeed.Dropping only the flag carrier down to 0 just means that they are forced to engage every single member of your team multiple times as you respawn and run back (at full out of combat runspeed) before they can get to their base.To use your analogy, this would be if the only way you were allowed to score is by having one really big guy slowly march down the field with the entire opposing team hanging on his back.Basically, unless one team massively overwhelms the other and can just spawn camp them, this just reduces the game to a massive zerg fight in the middle of the zone.</blockquote>Right, that does make it an interesting situation. So the options now are...a) Leave things the way they are - Making Ganak more and more of a boring match as people realize the easiest way to win is by not fighting.b) Decrease flag carriers speed - This has advantages of making it more of a battle for the flag with the carrier requiring protection the entire way. Like you pointed out, it could get frustrating engaging in the same enemy 5x before you're able to return it.c) Put everyone in 'combat speed' - This makes for matches where you feel like you're playing in mudd) Remove combat speed slowness - Like C but reversed. It'll be a crazy match of everyone running around at 75%+ usually.Looking at that specific list, I still think B is the best option, or a variation of B. In Gears, they offer an increasing penalty to the person holding the relic, so maybe they can do something like a 35% run speed penalty that increases to 65% (but bottoms out at 0%). So, assuming they find a way to get rid of the hackers, most non bards will be running 55-75%. When they capture the flag, it's 'heavy', so it slows them down by 35%, but the longer you hold it, the more tired you become and it eventually nearly bottoms out your run speed.Like Gears, there should be some type of penalty to the flag carrier. Is it permanent 0% run speed? I think you made a good argument against that. Meeting somewhere in the middle would probably be a good way to start imo.

Yimway

04-05-2010, 11:32 AM

<cite>Luceus@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like Gears, there should be some type of penalty to the flag carrier. Is it permanent 0% run speed? I think you made a good argument against that. Meeting somewhere in the middle would probably be a good way to start imo.</blockquote>Make posession of the flag a hostile action and lock them in combat. Thats really all that is needed.Classes with incombat speed buffs continue to have their intended advantages, but it does make the task of running the gauntlet a bit more reasonable.

Shankapotomus

04-05-2010, 11:45 AM

Sorry, didn't get time to read every post.But it is an exploit to be able to get up on your own revive point. It is nearly impossible for the opposing team to get up their while they have mages and scouts ranging them the whole time. And when a priest dies and repops up there....Simple solutionSingle flag timer, if someone holds the flag for about... 3 minutes I'd say, it should reset.Double flag timer, when both of the flags get picked up it should pop a new timer thats about the same length and if it isn't captured they are both reset.Holding a flag indefinitly makes no sense to me...

Xethren

04-05-2010, 11:57 AM

Ive posted several times that holding the flag should put you into combat and/or make you run at 0%, though you could still use your in-combat speed buffs.Running the flag to the other base should be harder than being able to outrun the whole team. It should require a team effort to help bring in and escort the carrier safely.

mysticalone

04-05-2010, 12:25 PM

<cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, didn't get time to read every post.But it is an exploit to be able to get up on your own revive point. It is nearly impossible for the opposing team to get up their while they have mages and scouts ranging them the whole time. And when a priest dies and repops up there....Simple solutionSingle flag timer, if someone holds the flag for about... 3 minutes I'd say, it should reset.Double flag timer, when both of the flags get picked up it should pop a new timer thats about the same length and if it isn't captured they are both reset.Holding a flag indefinitly makes no sense to me...</blockquote>I found a dev post one day after pm'ing about this and there is apparently a fix for this on test server where if you hide the flag at your repsawn point it resets it. I agree it is an exploit but most of the time it backfires on people if the team seeing it has a few brain cells they simply do not attack that point. People in boredom waiting for the timer to tick down eventualy come down and get killed and most matches result in the team using this "tactic" loosing the match in the end due to points made from kiling them. There is no way (despite what people say) to get up there any other way then by dying. Los is an issue as well for the team underneath. So despite what is said and the fact there is a fix on the test servers all the rationalle and arguing in the world wont change what is. SOE would not be doing the work to remove the issue if it was not an issue. The speed at which they react usualy dictates how hard it is to fix it.

Blambil

04-05-2010, 01:34 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make posession of the flag a hostile action and lock them in combat. Thats really all that is needed.Classes with incombat speed buffs continue to have their intended advantages, but it does make the task of running the gauntlet a bit more reasonable.</blockquote>Absolutely agree.. Best course of action. Blocks both run-speed and out-of-combat health/power regen (yet ANOTHER reason why killing a non-engaged-flag-carrier is a PITB right now)

Darkonx

04-05-2010, 01:35 PM

<cite>mysticalone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, didn't get time to read every post.But it is an exploit to be able to get up on your own revive point. It is nearly impossible for the opposing team to get up their while they have mages and scouts ranging them the whole time. And when a priest dies and repops up there....Simple solutionSingle flag timer, if someone holds the flag for about... 3 minutes I'd say, it should reset.Double flag timer, when both of the flags get picked up it should pop a new timer thats about the same length and if it isn't captured they are both reset.Holding a flag indefinitly makes no sense to me...</blockquote>I found a dev post one day after pm'ing about this and there is apparently a fix for this on test server where if you hide the flag at your repsawn point it resets it. I agree it is an exploit but most of the time it backfires on people if the team seeing it has a few brain cells they simply do not attack that point. People in boredom waiting for the timer to tick down eventualy come down and get killed and most matches result in the team using this "tactic" loosing the match in the end due to points made from kiling them. There is no way (despite what people say) to get up there any other way then by dying. Los is an issue as well for the team underneath. So despite what is said and the fact there is a fix on the test servers all the rationalle and arguing in the world wont change what is. SOE would not be doing the work to remove the issue if it was not an issue. The speed at which they react usualy dictates how hard it is to fix it. </blockquote>There are SEVERAL ways to get up to either aquaduct, for both teams. EVERYONE can use Spring Loaded Gnomish Stilts. A bruiser can drag you. You can be rifted. You can use Shadowstep/Mantis Leap depending on class. I'm not saying it should not be changed, I am just stating the fact that there are multiple ways to get up there.

Shankapotomus

04-05-2010, 02:02 PM

<cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>mysticalone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, didn't get time to read every post.But it is an exploit to be able to get up on your own revive point. It is nearly impossible for the opposing team to get up their while they have mages and scouts ranging them the whole time. And when a priest dies and repops up there....Simple solutionSingle flag timer, if someone holds the flag for about... 3 minutes I'd say, it should reset.Double flag timer, when both of the flags get picked up it should pop a new timer thats about the same length and if it isn't captured they are both reset.Holding a flag indefinitly makes no sense to me...</blockquote>I found a dev post one day after pm'ing about this and there is apparently a fix for this on test server where if you hide the flag at your repsawn point it resets it. I agree it is an exploit but most of the time it backfires on people if the team seeing it has a few brain cells they simply do not attack that point. People in boredom waiting for the timer to tick down eventualy come down and get killed and most matches result in the team using this "tactic" loosing the match in the end due to points made from kiling them. There is no way (despite what people say) to get up there any other way then by dying. Los is an issue as well for the team underneath. So despite what is said and the fact there is a fix on the test servers all the rationalle and arguing in the world wont change what is. SOE would not be doing the work to remove the issue if it was not an issue. The speed at which they react usualy dictates how hard it is to fix it. </blockquote>There are SEVERAL ways to get up to either aquaduct, for both teams. EVERYONE can use Spring Loaded Gnomish Stilts. A bruiser can drag you. You can be rifted. You can use Shadowstep/Mantis Leap depending on class. I'm not saying it should not be changed, I am just stating the fact that there are multiple ways to get up there.</blockquote>But if you pay attention to my post that he is replying to...You can't get up there without taking massive damage.Compare it to going up the center lift in smuggler's den solo while there is an opposing group or 2 defending center flag.

Taldier

04-05-2010, 02:59 PM

<cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>mysticalone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, didn't get time to read every post.But it is an exploit to be able to get up on your own revive point. It is nearly impossible for the opposing team to get up their while they have mages and scouts ranging them the whole time. And when a priest dies and repops up there....Simple solutionSingle flag timer, if someone holds the flag for about... 3 minutes I'd say, it should reset.Double flag timer, when both of the flags get picked up it should pop a new timer thats about the same length and if it isn't captured they are both reset.Holding a flag indefinitly makes no sense to me...</blockquote>I found a dev post one day after pm'ing about this and there is apparently a fix for this on test server where if you hide the flag at your repsawn point it resets it. I agree it is an exploit but most of the time it backfires on people if the team seeing it has a few brain cells they simply do not attack that point. People in boredom waiting for the timer to tick down eventualy come down and get killed and most matches result in the team using this "tactic" loosing the match in the end due to points made from kiling them. There is no way (despite what people say) to get up there any other way then by dying. Los is an issue as well for the team underneath. So despite what is said and the fact there is a fix on the test servers all the rationalle and arguing in the world wont change what is. SOE would not be doing the work to remove the issue if it was not an issue. The speed at which they react usualy dictates how hard it is to fix it. </blockquote>There are SEVERAL ways to get up to either aquaduct, for both teams. EVERYONE can use Spring Loaded Gnomish Stilts. A bruiser can drag you. You can be rifted. You can use Shadowstep/Mantis Leap depending on class. I'm not saying it should not be changed, I am just stating the fact that there are multiple ways to get up there.</blockquote>But if you pay attention to my post that he is replying to...You can't get up there without taking massive damage.Compare it to going up the center lift in smuggler's den solo while there is an opposing group or 2 defending center flag.</blockquote>So why go up the lift solo?Why try to get to the flag carrier solo?Whether or not someone agrees or disagrees with the overall point, the argument that it is impossible to get there because you are solo (or any amount less than an x2) and the other side has an entire x2 concentrated at one point is simply invalid. The same statement is equally true at any x,y,z coord on any map.And yes, they are removing the ability to take a flag to the rez point. The position of the rez point is the real issue in that case. It should have just been moved to the zone in spot in the base.Despite all the redirection, the question remains whether or not players are allowed to use 3d terrain, which is completely unrelated to the spawn point, in the scenario without being petitioned by whiners who cant find their spacebar.

Zabom

04-05-2010, 03:52 PM

The issue is not so much the validity of hard to reach places. Rather the tactic in question is the stalling of the match by holding the opponents flag and not taking it to your base to prevent them from taking yours to their base. This stalemate to stall and wait for the timer to run out is what for a against the intended sport of the game.

Taldier

04-05-2010, 04:12 PM

<cite>Zabom wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is not so much the validity of hard to reach places. Rather the tactic in question is the stalling of the match by holding the opponents flag and not taking it to your base to prevent them from taking yours to their base. This stalemate to stall and wait for the timer to run out is what for a against the intended sport of the game.</blockquote>If both teams have the other teams flag which side is stalling?It seems that they chose to implement the rules in a way that you cant score unless you have your own flag.Seeing as they had to purposely design code to disable the ability to capture while your flag was gone.Several people have suggested some kind of timer which could possibly make the game more interesting when both teams decide to turtle. However if they did implement something along those lines, both flags would have to be respawned at the exact same instant.

Shankapotomus

04-05-2010, 04:17 PM

<cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkonx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>mysticalone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry, didn't get time to read every post.But it is an exploit to be able to get up on your own revive point. It is nearly impossible for the opposing team to get up their while they have mages and scouts ranging them the whole time. And when a priest dies and repops up there....Simple solutionSingle flag timer, if someone holds the flag for about... 3 minutes I'd say, it should reset.Double flag timer, when both of the flags get picked up it should pop a new timer thats about the same length and if it isn't captured they are both reset.Holding a flag indefinitly makes no sense to me...</blockquote>I found a dev post one day after pm'ing about this and there is apparently a fix for this on test server where if you hide the flag at your repsawn point it resets it. I agree it is an exploit but most of the time it backfires on people if the team seeing it has a few brain cells they simply do not attack that point. People in boredom waiting for the timer to tick down eventualy come down and get killed and most matches result in the team using this "tactic" loosing the match in the end due to points made from kiling them. There is no way (despite what people say) to get up there any other way then by dying. Los is an issue as well for the team underneath. So despite what is said and the fact there is a fix on the test servers all the rationalle and arguing in the world wont change what is. SOE would not be doing the work to remove the issue if it was not an issue. The speed at which they react usualy dictates how hard it is to fix it. </blockquote>There are SEVERAL ways to get up to either aquaduct, for both teams. EVERYONE can use Spring Loaded Gnomish Stilts. A bruiser can drag you. You can be rifted. You can use Shadowstep/Mantis Leap depending on class. I'm not saying it should not be changed, I am just stating the fact that there are multiple ways to get up there.</blockquote>But if you pay attention to my post that he is replying to...You can't get up there without taking massive damage.Compare it to going up the center lift in smuggler's den solo while there is an opposing group or 2 defending center flag.</blockquote>So why go up the lift solo?Why try to get to the flag carrier solo?Whether or not someone agrees or disagrees with the overall point, the argument that it is impossible to get there because you are solo (or any amount less than an x2) and the other side has an entire x2 concentrated at one point is simply invalid. The same statement is equally true at any x,y,z coord on any map.And yes, they are removing the ability to take a flag to the rez point. The position of the rez point is the real issue in that case. It should have just been moved to the zone in spot in the base.Despite all the redirection, the question remains whether or not players are allowed to use 3d terrain, which is completely unrelated to the spawn point, in the scenario without being petitioned by whiners who cant find their spacebar.</blockquote>ah... Taldier...Take English class over please. Using an exaggerated statement is ment to place emphasis on my first statement.I don't go up the lift solo...The OP is actually about run speed Vs Jumpy Boots.And is the respawn not apart of this 3rd terrain you've decided to dub? or did you exclude it for personal gains?The fact is it's their respawn point. That means as you kill them they will respawn up there and protect their flag holder. Since you have to use your floaty boots to get up the after him and its narrow paths, your team has to trickle in. The whole while they get to fling spells and range attack you ( not to mention fears, snares, roots, meses, you name it). Sorry for bringing up valid points about arguements being made, but they do pertain to this post and should not be skated around to not even make a point of your own.

Zabom

04-05-2010, 04:19 PM

Obviously the team that is stalling is the on currently in the lead. The other team wants to turn in the flag for points.

Taldier

04-05-2010, 04:54 PM

<cite>Shankapotomus@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>ah... Taldier...Take English class over please. Using an exaggerated statement is ment to place emphasis on my first statement.I don't go up the lift solo...The OP is actually about run speed Vs Jumpy Boots.And is the respawn not apart of this 3rd terrain you've decided to dub? or did you exclude it for personal gains?The fact is it's their respawn point. That means as you kill them they will respawn up there and protect their flag holder. Since you have to use your floaty boots to get up the after him and its narrow paths, your team has to trickle in. The whole while they get to fling spells and range attack you ( not to mention fears, snares, roots, meses, you name it). Sorry for bringing up valid points about arguements being made, but they do pertain to this post and should not be skated around to not even make a point of your own.</blockquote>I didnt say you did.Obviously you didnt understand, the point is that your hyperbole is counter to your argument.Saying that someone cant get somewhere while an x2 attacks them when they dont have an x2 with them is literally identical to someone complaining that they cant go up the center elevator solo.As you so cleverly pointed out the op talks about jumpy boots. And most of the following discussion turns away from the runspeed issue to discuss jumping on terrain.Jumping on terrain is not directly relevant to the spawn point other than the fact that the spawn point happens to be on one of the many examples of raised terrain. 3d is a reference to 3 dimensions, as in more complex than flat. Yes the spawn point happens to be on 3d terrain. No it is not the only 3d terrain in the zone.The fact that people keep turning this back into a discussion about the spawn point when a fix to eliminate that issue is already on test simply demonstrates how poor the argument against using 3d terrain in a pvp scenario actually is.Personally I've never been on any of the aquaducts for more than 10 seconds except once in the enemy's base where it took more like 20-30 to kill their flag carrier.Why? Simply because its an exposed position with no way out if an intelligent enemy comes at you in force. Its only an effective defensive position if the entire enemy team lacks depth perception. The fortress wall is a much better place both to take cover and attack from.