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PeterJohn
03-09-2010, 01:31 PM
<p>I posted something similar to this in another thread, but felt that it deserved its own topic.</p><p>Let me start by saying that I immensely enjoy Battlegrounds. I am from a Blue server (Lucan DLere) and have been playing my templar and my dirge in Battlegrounds, and I must say that I hold my own fairly well. I do not have any Avatar gear and do not yet even have a single Battleground gear item yet, but I am learning my role given my otherwise not-too-shabby gear for now.</p><p>There is a lot of contention between Blue and Red server folks regarding certain gear items that are simply not available to the Blue server folks. Blues think the gear is OP and this gives the Reds permanent unfair advantage, and Reds think that they deserve the advantage due to the work they put into obtaining their gear.</p><p>However, and here is my point:</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. They will never realize that they are just generally not very good at PvP yet. And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want.</span></p><p>I'm not saying the answer is easy, but SOE needs to figure out how to reconcile this controversy.</p>

Wytie
03-09-2010, 01:57 PM
<p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p>

Grumble69
03-09-2010, 01:59 PM
<p>It's only an issue when they form groups and play.  Fortunately that's only happened to me a couple of times.  They win so stinking fast that you don't really learn from your mistakes.  When they're in PUGs, it's a bit more balanced out (usually). </p><p>IMO, the matchmaker just needs two queues to fill--pure PUG (individuals) and everything else.  So if you got folks organized & grouping up, it tends to match them up against others like that.  It may need to take individuals to fill them out though. </p><p>Admittedly this doesn't solve the problem of gear advantage.  But it should reduce the chances of new BG players getting steamrolled so badly.  Having said that, new players should have a thick skin going in.  It's not going to be something you master in an afternoon.  I learn more from my losses than my wins.</p>

Ralpmet
03-09-2010, 02:16 PM
<p>I personally don't care if they get access to our gear, just as long as it takes the same amount of effort to get those items as it took us.</p><p>So for it to be fair time wise, I'd like to see 250 minutes worth of grinding on blueby servers to get the item that took me 250 minutes of grinding to get (probably more but we'll be generous.).</p>

PeterJohn
03-09-2010, 03:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p></blockquote><p>Not at all, Paill. The perception of that average geared blubie in that case will be that if he chooses to work harder to get better gear, then he will be able to compete.</p><p>It is a perception issue. If the blubie thinks the only reason they are losing is due to gear they can NEVER get, then they will quit playing. There is a big difference.</p>

Wytie
03-09-2010, 03:18 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p></blockquote><p>Not at all, Paill. The perception of that average geared blubie in that case will be that if he chooses to work harder to get better gear, then he will be able to compete.</p><p>It is a perception issue. If the blubie thinks the only reason they are losing is due to gear they can NEVER get, then they will quit playing. There is a big difference.</p></blockquote><p>But if that person is getting beat by people in raid gear they have no real chance of getting its still the same situation.</p><p>I agree with you about perception though, actually I think its mostly a perception issue. Everyone always wants the things they cant are arent supose to have. Its human nature.</p><p>Not everyone has the abilitly to get pvp gear just like not everyone has the ability to raid gear in a highend guild, none the less both types of people have gear the average person can only dream of.</p><p>It makes sense to me because I am not only a pvp'r but also a raider. Back before pvp gear, raiders would just destroy everyone in pvp, because no one had anything close to them in gear.</p>

Laenai
03-09-2010, 03:22 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. They will never realize that they are just generally not very good at PvP yet. And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want</span>.</p></blockquote><p>I still can't figure out why winning over losing is a make or break issue for us bluebies. You don't come out with broken gear, you don't come out with XP debt, you didn't lose a chest full of gold and items you've just spent an hour obtaining, and you STILL get a token at the end to spend on gear to HELP you in the battlegrounds.</p><p>If its just a gonad size issue, then suck it up. Someone's is always going to be bigger than yours.</p><p>Red server players have PvP gear because they *gasp!* PvP. And to be quite honest, I've killed as many red players that I've been killed by- wearing T3 shard/T9 legendary gear. I've been killed by as many blue players a I've been killed by red players on top of that, but does it matter? Pft. No. Because some of the most fun matches I've ever been in have been WHERE MY TEAM LOST.</p><p>And I hate to break it to folks, but if you're not very good at PvP (and I'm really not) and instead of learning anything about how to change and adapt your play style instead of QQing about and depending on gear...you're still not going to be very good at PvP when you get all your PvP gear. If you're not very good at paying attention during a raid and instead of learning anything about how to change and adapt your play style instead of QQing about and depending on gear...you're still not going to be very good at raiding when you get all your raid gear.</p><p>The learning curve for bluebies is a sharp one, yes, but its definitely something that can be overcome. You won't learn /anything/ about how to PvP better if you win every match. Queue up until you get frustrated and stop having fun, then go do something else. But personally, I think the chance to engage these folks on other servers -some of whom have helped me learn the tricks of my class in PvE- is the majority of the fun. Which, when it comes down to it, is why you play the game in the first place.</p>

PeterJohn
03-09-2010, 03:49 PM
<p><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still can't figure out why winning over losing is a make or break issue for us bluebies. You don't come out with broken gear, you don't come out with XP debt, you didn't lose a chest full of gold and items you've just spent an hour obtaining, and you STILL get a token at the end to spend on gear to HELP you in the battlegrounds.</p><p>If its just a gonad size issue, then suck it up. Someone's is always going to be bigger than yours.</p></blockquote><p>Then you don't understand my original post. If the perception by Blues is that they will NEVER be able to compete because they think they are losing because of OP gear that they can NEVER obtain, then they are going to stop playing Battlegrounds.</p>

Grumble69
03-09-2010, 04:10 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still can't figure out why winning over losing is a make or break issue for us bluebies. You don't come out with broken gear, you don't come out with XP debt, you didn't lose a chest full of gold and items you've just spent an hour obtaining, and you STILL get a token at the end to spend on gear to HELP you in the battlegrounds.</p><p>If its just a gonad size issue, then suck it up. Someone's is always going to be bigger than yours.</p></blockquote><p>Then you don't understand my original post. If the perception by Blues is that they will NEVER be able to compete because they think they are losing because of OP gear that they can NEVER obtain, then they are going to stop playing Battlegrounds.</p></blockquote><p>Most losses are not due to gear.  It's primarily either 1) the team was not working together, or 2) a class was not using all of their skills/abilities at their disposal.  It may be a perception issue that it's the gear's fault when it's really that they just suck.</p>

Crismorn
03-09-2010, 04:13 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p></blockquote><p>They have an option of aquiring that gear, just like you have the option to aquire raid gear inside of no-pvp instances and fight the same encounters bluebies do.</p><p>You guys are looking more and more sad every day, you are not living up to your reputations as pvper's tbh</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-09-2010, 04:13 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still can't figure out why winning over losing is a make or break issue for us bluebies. You don't come out with broken gear, you don't come out with XP debt, you didn't lose a chest full of gold and items you've just spent an hour obtaining, and you STILL get a token at the end to spend on gear to HELP you in the battlegrounds.</p><p>If its just a gonad size issue, then suck it up. Someone's is always going to be bigger than yours.</p></blockquote><p>Then you don't understand my original post. If the perception by Blues is that they will NEVER be able to compete because they think they are losing because of OP gear that they can NEVER obtain, then they are going to stop playing Battlegrounds.</p></blockquote><p>It's not the gear, I promise you. We would roll out into an x4+ with 1 group without any of this fabled "OP gear" you all complain about and still destroy everyone 90% of the time.</p>

Crismorn
03-09-2010, 04:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p></blockquote><p>Not at all, Paill. The perception of that average geared blubie in that case will be that if he chooses to work harder to get better gear, then he will be able to compete.</p><p>It is a perception issue. If the blubie thinks the only reason they are losing is due to gear they can NEVER get, then they will quit playing. There is a big difference.</p></blockquote><p><strong>But if that person is getting beat by people in raid gear they have no real chance of getting its still the same situation</strong>.</p><p>I agree with you about perception though, actually I think its mostly a perception issue. Everyone always wants the things they cant are arent supose to have. Its human nature.</p><p>Not everyone has the abilitly to get pvp gear just like not everyone has the ability to raid gear in a highend guild, none the less both types of people have gear the average person can only dream of.</p><p>It makes sense to me because I am not only a pvp'r but also a raider. Back before pvp gear, raiders would just destroy everyone in pvp, because no one had anything close to them in gear.</p></blockquote><p>Once again so you can fully understand the difference between possible and impossible.</p><p>Anyone can raid inside of no-pvp raid instances, including everyone on your hardcore pvp server "even though there is no death penalty so your pvp is meaningless anyways"</p><p>We cannot get pvp items, you can get both.  Please either share your crutch or hobble around like the rest of us, but please stop making your servers population look like a bunch of cowards who need gear over bluebies as an advantage</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-09-2010, 04:18 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p></blockquote><p>Not at all, Paill. The perception of that average geared blubie in that case will be that if he chooses to work harder to get better gear, then he will be able to compete.</p><p>It is a perception issue. If the blubie thinks the only reason they are losing is due to gear they can NEVER get, then they will quit playing. There is a big difference.</p></blockquote><p><strong>But if that person is getting beat by people in raid gear they have no real chance of getting its still the same situation</strong>.</p><p>I agree with you about perception though, actually I think its mostly a perception issue. Everyone always wants the things they cant are arent supose to have. Its human nature.</p><p>Not everyone has the abilitly to get pvp gear just like not everyone has the ability to raid gear in a highend guild, none the less both types of people have gear the average person can only dream of.</p><p>It makes sense to me because I am not only a pvp'r but also a raider. Back before pvp gear, raiders would just destroy everyone in pvp, because no one had anything close to them in gear.</p></blockquote><p>Once again so you can fully understand the difference between possible and impossible.</p><p>Anyone can raid inside of no-pvp raid instances, including everyone on your hardcore pvp server "even though there is no death penalty so your pvp is meaningless anyways"</p><p>We cannot get pvp items, you can get both.  Please either share your crutch or hobble around like the rest of us, but please stop making your servers population look like a bunch of cowards who need gear over bluebies as an advantage</p></blockquote><p>Hey look up, you guys are the one looking for a crutch to support failing at BG's sometimes</p>

Crismorn
03-09-2010, 04:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still can't figure out why winning over losing is a make or break issue for us bluebies. You don't come out with broken gear, you don't come out with XP debt, you didn't lose a chest full of gold and items you've just spent an hour obtaining, and you STILL get a token at the end to spend on gear to HELP you in the battlegrounds.</p><p>If its just a gonad size issue, then suck it up. Someone's is always going to be bigger than yours.</p></blockquote><p>Then you don't understand my original post. If the perception by Blues is that they will NEVER be able to compete because they think they are losing because of OP gear that they can NEVER obtain, then they are going to stop playing Battlegrounds.</p></blockquote><p>It's not the gear, I promise you. We would roll out into an x4+ with 1 group without any of this fabled "OP gear" you all complain about and still destroy everyone 90% of the time.</p></blockquote><p>Cool, then share your OP gear that we would all use then beat up on us scrubby bluebies in your pre-set group/X2's/X4's.</p>

Crismorn
03-09-2010, 04:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p></blockquote><p>Not at all, Paill. The perception of that average geared blubie in that case will be that if he chooses to work harder to get better gear, then he will be able to compete.</p><p>It is a perception issue. If the blubie thinks the only reason they are losing is due to gear they can NEVER get, then they will quit playing. There is a big difference.</p></blockquote><p><strong>But if that person is getting beat by people in raid gear they have no real chance of getting its still the same situation</strong>.</p><p>I agree with you about perception though, actually I think its mostly a perception issue. Everyone always wants the things they cant are arent supose to have. Its human nature.</p><p>Not everyone has the abilitly to get pvp gear just like not everyone has the ability to raid gear in a highend guild, none the less both types of people have gear the average person can only dream of.</p><p>It makes sense to me because I am not only a pvp'r but also a raider. Back before pvp gear, raiders would just destroy everyone in pvp, because no one had anything close to them in gear.</p></blockquote><p>Once again so you can fully understand the difference between possible and impossible.</p><p>Anyone can raid inside of no-pvp raid instances, including everyone on your hardcore pvp server "even though there is no death penalty so your pvp is meaningless anyways"</p><p>We cannot get pvp items, you can get both.  Please either share your crutch or hobble around like the rest of us, but please stop making your servers population look like a bunch of cowards who need gear over bluebies as an advantage</p></blockquote><p>Hey look up, you guys are the one looking for a crutch to support failing at BG's sometimes</p></blockquote><p>I want the same gear you have access to, Im asking you to share your crutch so I can stop hopping around</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-09-2010, 04:22 PM
You want PvP gear for free is what your asking. You get your BG tokens even losing, PvP that doesn't happen, or at least isn't supposed to anymore which should have never happened in the first place by I digress. How about this, We put the items on your servers for the cost we have, but give you no means to get the items needed. They would be there, but since you can't get PvP kills, you lose.

Crismorn
03-09-2010, 04:28 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You want PvP gear for free is what your asking. You get your BG tokens even losing, PvP that doesn't happen, or at least isn't supposed to anymore which should have never happened in the first place by I digress. How about this, We put the items on your servers for the cost we have, but give you no means to get the items needed. They would be there, but since you can't get PvP kills, you lose.</blockquote><p>Im not buying the whole "Its hard to earn pvp gear in a giant zerg of skill-less fighting" arguement since I actually know what pvp is, it starts with having a death penalty and eq2 pvp does not have one.</p><p>Im sorry that you have had meaningless pvp on your server for such a long time, but there is nothing i can do about that.</p><p>Please dont take it out on us bluebies, we had nothing to do with you guys losing meaningful pvp.</p><p>I would say there is more skill involved for equal numbers inside of an instance then there is in a giant zerg in one zone od eq2 for hours on end.. But that is not the issue, the issue is why do you need a gear advantage over bluebies?</p>

hellfire
03-09-2010, 04:29 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. </span></p></blockquote><p>No i relize toughness makes a difference and play  to get  BGs gear..........i havent quit.</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-09-2010, 04:35 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You want PvP gear for free is what your asking. You get your BG tokens even losing, PvP that doesn't happen, or at least isn't supposed to anymore which should have never happened in the first place by I digress. How about this, We put the items on your servers for the cost we have, but give you no means to get the items needed. They would be there, but since you can't get PvP kills, you lose.</blockquote><p>Im not buying the whole "Its hard to earn pvp gear in a giant zerg of skill-less fighting" arguement since I actually know what pvp is, it starts with having a death penalty and eq2 pvp does not have one.</p><p>Im sorry that you have had meaningless pvp on your server for such a long time, but there is nothing i can do about that.</p><p>Please dont take it out on us bluebies, we had nothing to do with you guys losing meaningful pvp.</p><p>I would say there is more skill involved for equal numbers inside of an instance then there is in a giant zerg in one zone od eq2 for hours on end.. But that is not the issue, the issue is why do you need a gear advantage over bluebies?</p></blockquote><p>This is going to be an endless cycle, you all fail to see this, It will be this you complain about, then when they give you this, it's going to be something else, It never boils down to maybe they are bad. It's been like this forver. As much as a raid guild would love having say Munzok nerfed down to the 1st named in PR's difficulty but same loot after they farmed it on the harder difficulty.</p><p>There will never be gear balance, there will always be someone with better gear, doesn't matter if it's attainable or not by everyone, someone will always say it's anything but themselves. Doesn't matter if it's raid gear, PvP gear, or even istance gear.</p>

Kkolbe
03-09-2010, 04:35 PM
<p><strong>Just make a bg server for pvp and and a bg for pve and be done with all this nonsense. </strong>END OF STORY... PVE people will never stop whining.. pve people coming to our server(Nagafen) years ago are the ones that got it nerfed to all hell. Do we want a repeat of that..?</p>

Crismorn
03-09-2010, 04:39 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You want PvP gear for free is what your asking. You get your BG tokens even losing, PvP that doesn't happen, or at least isn't supposed to anymore which should have never happened in the first place by I digress. How about this, We put the items on your servers for the cost we have, but give you no means to get the items needed. They would be there, but since you can't get PvP kills, you lose.</blockquote><p>Im not buying the whole "Its hard to earn pvp gear in a giant zerg of skill-less fighting" arguement since I actually know what pvp is, it starts with having a death penalty and eq2 pvp does not have one.</p><p>Im sorry that you have had meaningless pvp on your server for such a long time, but there is nothing i can do about that.</p><p>Please dont take it out on us bluebies, we had nothing to do with you guys losing meaningful pvp.</p><p>I would say there is more skill involved for equal numbers inside of an instance then there is in a giant zerg in one zone od eq2 for hours on end.. But that is not the issue, the issue is why do you need a gear advantage over bluebies?</p></blockquote><p>This is going to be an endless cycle, you all fail to see this, It will be this you complain about, then when they give you this, it's going to be something else, It never boils down to maybe they are bad. It's been like this forver. As much as a raid guild would love having say Munzok nerfed down to the 1st named in PR's difficulty but same loot after they farmed it on the harder difficulty.</p><p>There will never be gear balance, there will always be someone with better gear, doesn't matter if it's attainable or not by everyone, someone will always say it's anything but themselves. Doesn't matter if it's raid gear, PvP gear, or even istance gear.</p></blockquote><p>Im not asking for people to give me gear, Im asking for the same chances to get gear that everyone on one server has access to.</p><p>Put the damned items on the BG merhcnat for 1000's of tokens, I really dont care how much it costs as long as its something we can actually aquire.</p>

Crismorn
03-09-2010, 04:40 PM
<p><cite>Kkolbe wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>Just make a bg server for pvp and and a bg for pve and be done with all this nonsense. </strong>END OF STORY... PVE people will never stop whining.. pve people coming to our server(Nagafen) years ago are the ones that got it nerfed to all hell. Do we want a repeat of that..?</p></blockquote><p>it just might happen if we cant resolve some core gear issues</p>

PeterJohn
03-09-2010, 04:41 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's not the gear, I promise you. We would roll out into an x4+ with 1 group without any of this fabled "OP gear" you all complain about and still destroy everyone 90% of the time.</p></blockquote><p>OMG seriously learn to read then look back at the original post.</p><p>The <strong>perception </strong>by Blues that we are getting owned only due to the OP gear is what is going to make people stop playing Battlegrounds. The <strong>reality </strong>is that we lack skills, communication, strategy, and yes some gear too. If Blues realized this, there would not be any issue. But that is irrelevant, because you are going to see Blues stop playing because of their <strong>perception</strong> of what the problem is.</p>

Laenai
03-09-2010, 04:45 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You want PvP gear for free is what your asking. You get your BG tokens even losing, PvP that doesn't happen, or at least isn't supposed to anymore which should have never happened in the first place by I digress. How about this, We put the items on your servers for the cost we have, but give you no means to get the items needed. They would be there, but since you can't get PvP kills, you lose.</blockquote><p>Im not buying the whole "Its hard to earn pvp gear in a giant zerg of skill-less fighting" arguement since I actually know what pvp is, it starts with having a death penalty and eq2 pvp does not have one.</p><p>Im sorry that you have had meaningless pvp on your server for such a long time, but there is nothing i can do about that.</p><p>Please dont take it out on us bluebies, we had nothing to do with you guys losing meaningful pvp.</p><p>I would say there is more skill involved for equal numbers inside of an instance then there is in a giant zerg in one zone od eq2 for hours on end.. But that is not the issue, the issue is why do you need a gear advantage over bluebies?</p></blockquote><p>This is going to be an endless cycle, you all fail to see this, It will be this you complain about, then when they give you this, it's going to be something else, It never boils down to maybe they are bad. It's been like this forver. As much as a raid guild would love having say Munzok nerfed down to the 1st named in PR's difficulty but same loot after they farmed it on the harder difficulty.</p><p>There will never be gear balance, there will always be someone with better gear, doesn't matter if it's attainable or not by everyone, someone will always say it's anything but themselves. Doesn't matter if it's raid gear, PvP gear, or even istance gear.</p></blockquote><p>Im not asking for people to give me gear, Im asking for the same chances to get gear that everyone on one server has access to.</p><p>Put the damned items on the BG merhcnat for 1000's of tokens, I really dont care how much it costs as long as its something we can actually aquire.</p></blockquote><p>You do. Its called "Do the battlegrounds and get the tokens."</p><p>Ten to one, eventually Sony WILL have more armor available on the BG merchants. But on the first run out? Please. Remember we could hardly log into BGs for the first week without something terrible happening to our toons.</p><p>Do the battlegrounds, get the tokens, get your gear. I'm not quite sure why that's so difficult to grasp. But my guess is, you're gonna be one of those that still sucks even after you get it.</p>

wickermanuk
03-09-2010, 04:46 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's not the gear, I promise you. We would roll out into an x4+ with 1 group without any of this fabled "OP gear" you all complain about and still destroy everyone 90% of the time.</p></blockquote><p>OMG seriously learn to read then look back at the original post.</p><p>The <strong>perception </strong>by Blues that we are getting owned only due to the OP gear is what is going to make people stop playing Battlegrounds. The <strong>reality </strong>is that we lack skills, communication, strategy, and yes some gear too. If Blues realized this, there would not be any issue. But that is irrelevant, because you are going to see Blues stop playing because of their <strong>perception</strong> of what the problem is.</p></blockquote><p>I dont see the massive difference between the PVP servers and the PVE servers honestly. Granted the communication is better but thats because a lot of the PVP server people role with their own groups.</p><p>What will kill BG is when eventually all the games will come down to sorcerer/crusader and clerics. Thats it, you can discount the vast majority of the other classes as slowly the games will turn into who can dish out the most dps and who can take the most damage.</p>

Wytie
03-09-2010, 04:58 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p></blockquote><p>Not at all, Paill. The perception of that average geared blubie in that case will be that if he chooses to work harder to get better gear, then he will be able to compete.</p><p>It is a perception issue. If the blubie thinks the only reason they are losing is due to gear they can NEVER get, then they will quit playing. There is a big difference.</p></blockquote><p><strong>But if that person is getting beat by people in raid gear they have no real chance of getting its still the same situation</strong>.</p><p>I agree with you about perception though, actually I think its mostly a perception issue. Everyone always wants the things they cant are arent supose to have. Its human nature.</p><p>Not everyone has the abilitly to get pvp gear just like not everyone has the ability to raid gear in a highend guild, none the less both types of people have gear the average person can only dream of.</p><p>It makes sense to me because I am not only a pvp'r but also a raider. Back before pvp gear, raiders would just destroy everyone in pvp, because no one had anything close to them in gear.</p></blockquote><p>Once again so you can fully understand the difference between possible and impossible.</p><p>Anyone can raid inside of no-pvp raid instances, including everyone on your hardcore pvp server "even though there is no death penalty so your pvp is meaningless anyways"</p><p>We cannot get pvp items, you can get both.  Please either share your crutch or hobble around like the rest of us, but please stop making your servers population look like a bunch of cowards who need gear over bluebies as an advantage</p></blockquote><p>Obviously..... you dont understand the differnce between possible and impossible.</p><p>You can have and get anything a pvp'r can get, it is more than possible, you choose not to get them in the same fashion we did.</p><p>Can you, or can you not, make a charcter on Nagafen or Vox? Yes you can, so it is more than possible, just like we did.</p><p>Its just as possible for you to reroll on Nagafen and get pvp gear as it is for us to reroll on a blue server and join some hardcore raiding guild and get tons of disco'd highend raid gear.</p><p>The differnce is no one who doesnt already have it can get anymore raid gear(aka avatar gear) that no longer drops. Now that gear is impossible to get now. So should it be avaliable to everyone through BG tokens too? Or are you bluebie friends just using them as a crutch cause they suck at pvp so bad?</p><p>You can twist the context in anyway you like, and I can twist it right back 10 or 15 times better.</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-09-2010, 05:07 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's not the gear, I promise you. We would roll out into an x4+ with 1 group without any of this fabled "OP gear" you all complain about and still destroy everyone 90% of the time.</p></blockquote><p>OMG seriously learn to read then look back at the original post.</p><p>The <strong>perception </strong>by Blues that we are getting owned only due to the OP gear is what is going to make people stop playing Battlegrounds. The <strong>reality </strong>is that we lack skills, communication, strategy, and yes some gear too. If Blues realized this, there would not be any issue. But that is irrelevant, because you are going to see Blues stop playing because of their <strong>perception</strong> of what the problem is.</p></blockquote><p>I wasn't responding to your post since I quoted what others are saying in this thread still blaiming gear. I didn't read the full OP before any of my posts, but I look for those whom like to warp  things and blaim everything on a few PvP pieces...</p>

Tehom
03-09-2010, 05:08 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Obviously..... you dont understand the differnce between possible and impossible.</p><p>You can have and get anything a pvp'r can get, it is more than possible, you choose not to get them in the same fashion we did.</p><p>Can you, or can you not, make a charcter on Nagafen or Vox? Yes you can, so it is more than possible, just like we did.</p><p>Its just as possible for you to reroll on Nagafen and get pvp gear as it is for us to reroll on a blue server and join some hardcore raiding guild and get tons of disco'd highend raid gear.</p><p>The differnce is no one who doesnt already have it can get anymore raid gear(aka avatar gear) that no longer drops. Now that gear is impossible to get now. So should it be avaliable to everyone through BG tokens too? Or are you bluebie friends just using them as a crutch cause they suck at pvp so bad?</p><p>You can twist the context in anyway you like, and I can twist it right back 10 or 15 times better.</p></blockquote><p>That's a silly comparison, considering avatar items aren't particularly good in pvp, and you had access to them on your server anyway. Effectively, you're saying that if BGs are to be an equal playing field, everyone should be from a pvp server. That's a bit nonsensical, since if that's what they intended, they would have implemented BGs for pvp servers only, no?</p><p>I honestly don't believe the handful of items you guys have access to are all -that- big of a deal. But I don't really see the issue with them being offered on the BG merchants either. They're either a big deal, or they're not. In the former, it's a balance issue that needs to be corrected. In the latter, you shouldn't really object unless it's some huge matter of principle, and you haven't really demonstrated why that would be.</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-09-2010, 05:17 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Obviously..... you dont understand the differnce between possible and impossible.</p><p>You can have and get anything a pvp'r can get, it is more than possible, you choose not to get them in the same fashion we did.</p><p>Can you, or can you not, make a charcter on Nagafen or Vox? Yes you can, so it is more than possible, just like we did.</p><p>Its just as possible for you to reroll on Nagafen and get pvp gear as it is for us to reroll on a blue server and join some hardcore raiding guild and get tons of disco'd highend raid gear.</p><p>The differnce is no one who doesnt already have it can get anymore raid gear(aka avatar gear) that no longer drops. Now that gear is impossible to get now. So should it be avaliable to everyone through BG tokens too? Or are you bluebie friends just using them as a crutch cause they suck at pvp so bad?</p><p>You can twist the context in anyway you like, and I can twist it right back 10 or 15 times better.</p></blockquote><p>That's a silly comparison, considering avatar items aren't particularly good in pvp, and you had access to them on your server anyway. Effectively, you're saying that if BGs are to be an equal playing field, everyone should be from a pvp server. That's a bit nonsensical, since if that's what they intended, they would have implemented BGs for pvp servers only, no?</p><p>I honestly don't believe the handful of items you guys have access to are all -that- big of a deal. But I don't really see the issue with them being offered on the BG merchants either. They're either a big deal, or they're not. In the former, it's a balance issue that needs to be corrected. In the latter, you shouldn't really object unless it's some huge matter of principle, and you haven't really demonstrated why that would be.</p></blockquote><p>Avatars were terchnically killable on PvP, but you can not fathom how difficult it is to actually kill them, You could ask CS about Avatars on PvP servers. They were the highest petitioned item in the game because of the exploits and other things that could be used to stop a whole raid of people with 1-3 people. So that's about the equivilant of getting the merchant on PvE server, but not getting the means to get it</p>

PeterJohn
03-09-2010, 05:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Obviously..... you dont understand the differnce between possible and impossible.</p><p>You can have and get anything a pvp'r can get, it is more than possible, you choose not to get them in the same fashion we did.</p><p>Can you, or can you not, make a charcter on Nagafen or Vox? Yes you can, so it is more than possible, just like we did.</p></blockquote><p>The argument that I can just make a character on Nagafen is bogus. For my templar and dirge, that I play on Lucan DLere, it is impossible to get that gear. That is clearly what is relevant and what every PvE is referring to.</p><p>The argument to reroll on PvP server is clearly ludicrous. That is not what Sony intended in order to play BG.</p><p>The perception is still that PvE server players are being owned because of lack of access to the OP gear. Again, that is not the real reason, but that is the perception.</p>

Am
03-09-2010, 05:23 PM
I think that you are absolutely right.

Wytie
03-09-2010, 05:24 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Obviously..... you dont understand the differnce between possible and impossible.</p><p>You can have and get anything a pvp'r can get, it is more than possible, you choose not to get them in the same fashion we did.</p><p>Can you, or can you not, make a charcter on Nagafen or Vox? Yes you can, so it is more than possible, just like we did.</p><p>Its just as possible for you to reroll on Nagafen and get pvp gear as it is for us to reroll on a blue server and join some hardcore raiding guild and get tons of disco'd highend raid gear.</p><p>The differnce is no one who doesnt already have it can get anymore raid gear(aka avatar gear) that no longer drops. Now that gear is impossible to get now. So should it be avaliable to everyone through BG tokens too? Or are you bluebie friends just using them as a crutch cause they suck at pvp so bad?</p><p>You can twist the context in anyway you like, and I can twist it right back 10 or 15 times better.</p></blockquote><p>That's a silly comparison, considering avatar items aren't particularly good in pvp, and you had access to them on your server anyway. Effectively, you're saying that if BGs are to be an equal playing field, everyone should be from a pvp server. That's a bit nonsensical, since if that's what they intended, they would have implemented BGs for pvp servers only, no?</p><p>I honestly don't believe the handful of items you guys have access to are all -that- big of a deal. But I don't really see the issue with them being offered on the BG merchants either. They're either a big deal, or they're not. In the former, it's a balance issue that needs to be corrected. In the latter, you shouldn't really object unless it's some huge matter of principle, and you haven't really demonstrated why that would be.</p></blockquote><p>So you use your opinion of avatar gear to disregard my fact. ok gotcha</p><p>Im not saying anything about an equal playing field, not once, nothing about pvp has ever been an equal playing field.</p><p>NOTHING</p><p>Those items arent that big a deal just like all those avatar items no one has access to anymore is a big deal, and its all because of the new pvp stat toughness, which neither the avatar gear nore the pvp jewerly being complained about has.</p><p>I completly object and most of you all are too thickheaded to actually understand the concept why. Which I and others have explained over and over but continues to go in one ear and out the other.</p>

bks6721
03-09-2010, 05:27 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I posted something similar to this in another thread, but felt that it deserved its own topic.</p><p>Let me start by saying that I immensely enjoy Battlegrounds. I am from a Blue server (Lucan DLere) and have been playing my templar and my dirge in Battlegrounds, and I must say that I hold my own fairly well. I do not have any Avatar gear and do not yet even have a single Battleground gear item yet, but I am learning my role given my otherwise not-too-shabby gear for now.</p><p>There is a lot of contention between Blue and Red server folks regarding certain gear items that are simply not available to the Blue server folks. Blues think the gear is OP and this gives the Reds permanent unfair advantage, and Reds think that they deserve the advantage due to the work they put into obtaining their gear.</p><p>However, and here is my point:</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. They will never realize that they are just generally not very good at PvP yet. And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want.</span></p><p>I'm not saying the answer is easy, but SOE needs to figure out how to reconcile this controversy.</p></blockquote><p>Blue server here.. maybe I've been lucky but I've had at least a 50/50 win/loss ratio.. even against pvp players.</p>

Wytie
03-09-2010, 05:33 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Obviously..... you dont understand the differnce between possible and impossible.</p><p>You can have and get anything a pvp'r can get, it is more than possible, you choose not to get them in the same fashion we did.</p><p>Can you, or can you not, make a charcter on Nagafen or Vox? Yes you can, so it is more than possible, just like we did.</p></blockquote><p>The argument that I can just make a character on Nagafen is bogus. For my templar and dirge, that I play on Lucan DLere, it is impossible to get that gear. That is clearly what is relevant and what every PvE is referring to.</p><p>The argument to reroll on PvP server is clearly ludicrous.<strong> That is not what Sony intended in order to play BG</strong>.</p><p>The perception is still that PvE server players are being owned because of lack of access to the OP gear. Again, that is not the real reason, but that is the perception.</p></blockquote><p>Of course not, but it is what Sony intended if you would like access to all of the pvp gear.</p><p>Why does everyone forget that pvp servers have been around for YEARS, years before battlegrounds and our pvp gear was here long before BG's too.</p><p>Most of the pve'rs are mad because they dont have access to pvp gear well hell Im mad because I dont have access to some of the avatar gear the pve'rs were able to get uncontested.</p><p>Best part is there is absolutly no differnce, someone is always going to have and use gear against you that you dont have access too, that doesnt mean you should instantly get access to it, and completly compromise everyone else who had to put in work to get it the way it was intended.</p>

bks6721
03-09-2010, 05:37 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still can't figure out why winning over losing is a make or break issue for us bluebies. You don't come out with broken gear, you don't come out with XP debt, you didn't lose a chest full of gold and items you've just spent an hour obtaining, and you STILL get a token at the end to spend on gear to HELP you in the battlegrounds.</p><p>If its just a gonad size issue, then suck it up. Someone's is always going to be bigger than yours.</p></blockquote><p>Then you don't understand my original post. If the perception by Blues is that they will NEVER be able to compete because they think they are losing because of OP gear that they can NEVER obtain, then they are going to stop playing Battlegrounds.</p></blockquote><p>I don't know anyone with that perception.  Everyone I know in game knows that a loss to well geared players happens</p>

Taldier
03-09-2010, 05:39 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's a silly comparison, considering avatar items aren't particularly good in pvp</p></blockquote><p>Out of all the epic fail in this thread...and there is quite a bit of lulz here...I pick this to win the most laughable sentance award.</p><p>Edit for enhanced comprehension:</p><p>Other than the banshee hoop, please go find me one piece of pvp gear that is better than a pve raid item or bg gear item of my choosing for any slot.  Hurry along now, make a lvl 1 on a pvp server, run over to those merchants and start browsing, come back to me when you epic fail.</p>

Armironhead
03-09-2010, 05:40 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Its really no differnt than a bluebie in average gear going against another bluebie in full SF red adorned raid gear and getting stomped.</p><p>Same outcome tbh, will BG fail then too?</p></blockquote><p>Its no fun being stomped on without any chance of winning.  In open world you can run, call in friends, ambush people, wait till they engage mobs, etc. . . all of which allows an out geared player to compete with a better geared player.  In bgs, soe has removed everything that gave under classed opponent a chance to even the odds.  Thus if you go into the bgs and you are out classed your only option is to die repeatedly until time runs out.  Ultimately, that is why the bgs are a big fail design wise.  Why should folk be forced to spend 15 mins of their play time just dying over and over again for the sole reason that the matchmaker stacked the other side?  If you were asked to bang your head against the wall for 15 min at a time would you do it?  As time goes on, more and more people are realizing that the bgs are a canned scripted fights with the out come determined by what classes you bring to fight.  It boils down to a simple formula, whoever has the more stacked side wins, unless of course the stronger side [Removed for Content] themselves.  There is no strat, there is no magic forumula to overcome the differences, its simply whichever side starts out with the stronger team wins.  So yea, the bgs fail.</p>

Tehom
03-09-2010, 05:48 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So you use your opinion of avatar gear to disregard my fact. ok gotcha</p><p>Im not saying anything about an equal playing field, not once, nothing about pvp has ever been an equal playing field.</p><p>NOTHING</p><p>Those items arent that big a deal just like all those avatar items no one has access to anymore is a big deal, and its all because of the new pvp stat toughness, which neither the avatar gear nore the pvp jewerly being complained about has.</p><p>I completly object and most of you all are too thickheaded to actually understand the concept why. Which I and others have explained over and over but continues to go in one ear and out the other.</p></blockquote><p>Although none of you have said so in as many words, I believe that you and others feel that it would somehow diminish your accomplishments to have access to items you earned given on battleground merchants. I just don't think that's particularly reasonable, and you're yet to really give a compelling argument giving specifics on the time or effort involved in getting those old items compared to the process of just going into battlegrounds. If you could actually elucidate that, it might make people more sympathetic to your position, rather than just calling people names while evading the point.</p><p>Incidentally, I honestly wouldn't care if avatar items -were- put on the BG merchants via tokens. I don't think it would personally diminish the advantages I've enjoyed for a year or so of having them, and always expected level cap increases to be a gear reset anyway.</p>

Shorcon
03-09-2010, 06:13 PM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Obviously..... you dont understand the differnce between possible and impossible.</p><p>You can have and get anything a pvp'r can get, it is more than possible, you choose not to get them in the same fashion we did.</p><p>Can you, or can you not, make a charcter on Nagafen or Vox? Yes you can, so it is more than possible, just like we did.</p></blockquote><p>The argument that I can just make a character on Nagafen is bogus. For my templar and dirge, that I play on Lucan DLere, it is impossible to get that gear. That is clearly what is relevant and what every PvE is referring to.</p><p>The argument to reroll on PvP server is clearly ludicrous. That is not what Sony intended in order to play BG.</p><p>The perception is still that PvE server players are being owned because of lack of access to the OP gear. Again, that is not the real reason, but that is the perception.</p></blockquote><p>The reason we get owned is due to gear. Make no mistakes. When you have a premade nag/vox on the other side you will be zerged by gear. It's a fact. You don't have a chance. Chance is what we blues want. We dont want an unfair advantage. Just a chance. You all are funny trying to tell us you win due to skill and the gear is irelivant. You win by ZERG due to overpowered gear. We cant L2P as long as this is the case. SoE will change this as long as we Blues stay firm on them having an absolute unfair advantage.</p><p>As I have said before. You will get owned by blues soon. As soon as SoE takes your advantage away. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have posted a large list of some of the gear that many vox/nag will not replace at 90 on another forum. I have been on my lvl 1 and doing much research. Keep up on all the posts for battlegrounds. It's in there somewhere. This isn't just a banshee ring/ear. It's much more than that. It's the gear you will still use at 90 over the gear that we all can get.</p><p>The biggest problem is the damage already done in battlegrounds by the initial release. The red servers have consumed 3 pieces of 90 battleground gear to our 1. That is a fact. There are many fully 90 geared vox/nag on 90 bg and few blue. This is very bad for the future of battlegrounds as red server advantage on release has caused an unfair advantage in the future of bg's. I said a long time ago that soe needs to fix this before it ruins the battlegrounds. Has battlegrounds found its end? We will see. I sure hope not as this could be the comeback of the king of mmorpg for us all. The eq2 player. It in my eyes has nothing to do with red/blue server but a revamp and regrand release of eq2 to up populations to pre dof all the way to kos pop's. You selfish reds are making it that much harder to get battlegrounds corrected by supporting your well earned pvp advantage in pvp. You need to understand as I have stated before. Battlegrounds is a seperate entity. It stands alone for blue/red servers to play together. Therefore there should be no items used by one server that cant be used by another. PERIOD.</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-09-2010, 06:16 PM
<p><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Obviously..... you dont understand the differnce between possible and impossible.</p><p>You can have and get anything a pvp'r can get, it is more than possible, you choose not to get them in the same fashion we did.</p><p>Can you, or can you not, make a charcter on Nagafen or Vox? Yes you can, so it is more than possible, just like we did.</p></blockquote><p>The argument that I can just make a character on Nagafen is bogus. For my templar and dirge, that I play on Lucan DLere, it is impossible to get that gear. That is clearly what is relevant and what every PvE is referring to.</p><p>The argument to reroll on PvP server is clearly ludicrous. That is not what Sony intended in order to play BG.</p><p>The perception is still that PvE server players are being owned because of lack of access to the OP gear. Again, that is not the real reason, but that is the perception.</p></blockquote><p>The reason we get owned is due to gear. Make no mistakes. When you have a premade nag/vox on the other side you will be zerged by gear. It's a fact. You don't have a chance. Chance is what we blues want. We dont want an unfair advantage. Just a chance. You all are funny trying to tell us you win due to skill and the gear is irelivant. You win by ZERG due to overpowered gear. We cant L2P as long as this is the case. SoE will change this as long as we Blues stay firm on them having an absolute unfair advantage.</p><p>As I have said before. You will get owned by blues soon. As soon as SoE takes your advantage away. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have posted a large list of some of the gear that many vox/nag will not replace at 90 on another forum. I have been on my lvl 1 and doing much research. Keep up on all the posts for battlegrounds. It's in there somewhere. This isn't just a banshee ring/ear. It's much more than that. It's the gear you will still use at 90 over the gear that we all can get.</p></blockquote><p>You're mentaility thinking you lost before you did is what will kill you...and no, I'm not kidding as stupid as it sounds</p>

Snagnasty
03-09-2010, 06:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I posted something similar to this in another thread, but felt that it deserved its own topic.</p><p>Let me start by saying that I immensely enjoy Battlegrounds. I am from a Blue server (Lucan DLere) and have been playing my templar and my dirge in Battlegrounds, and I must say that I hold my own fairly well. I do not have any Avatar gear and do not yet even have a single Battleground gear item yet, but I am learning my role given my otherwise not-too-shabby gear for now.</p><p>There is a lot of contention between Blue and Red server folks regarding certain gear items that are simply not available to the Blue server folks. Blues think the gear is OP and this gives the Reds permanent unfair advantage, and Reds think that they deserve the advantage due to the work they put into obtaining their gear.</p><p>However, and here is my point:</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. They will never realize that they are just generally not very good at PvP yet. And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want.</span></p><p>I'm not saying the answer is easy, but SOE needs to figure out how to reconcile this controversy.</p></blockquote><p>Blue server here.. maybe I've been lucky but I've had at least a 50/50 win/loss ratio.. even against pvp players.</p></blockquote><p>This has been my experience as well which is a surprise considering I have not done much PVP in EQ2.  </p>

Taldier
03-09-2010, 06:22 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Although none of you have said so in as many words, I believe that you and others feel that it would somehow diminish your accomplishments to have access to items you earned given on battleground merchants. I just don't think that's particularly reasonable, and you're yet to really give a compelling argument giving specifics on the time or effort involved in getting those old items compared to the process of just going into battlegrounds. If you could actually elucidate that, it might make people more sympathetic to your position, rather than just calling people names while evading the point.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">When I go out of my guild hall I do not get pvp tokens for standing on the docks.  Acquiring pvp tokens requires actually going into the wild and successfully killing other players who care whether or not they lose.  How is that not clear enough of a difference between the two?</span></p><p>Incidentally, I honestly wouldn't care if avatar items -were- put on the BG merchants via tokens. I don't think it would personally diminish the advantages I've enjoyed for a year or so of having them, and always expected level cap increases to be a gear reset anyway.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And 90% of the people with those items would fervently disagree with you.  I dont know why you would expect a lvl cap raise to be a gear reset when it never is.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">When they suggested degrading the effectiveness of lower tier gear as you lvl, soe got ran over by a truckload of angry pve raiders who didnt want to lose their accomplishments just because a new xpac came out.</span></p></blockquote>

Armironhead
03-09-2010, 06:25 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I posted something similar to this in another thread, but felt that it deserved its own topic.</p><p>Let me start by saying that I immensely enjoy Battlegrounds. I am from a Blue server (Lucan DLere) and have been playing my templar and my dirge in Battlegrounds, and I must say that I hold my own fairly well. I do not have any Avatar gear and do not yet even have a single Battleground gear item yet, but I am learning my role given my otherwise not-too-shabby gear for now.</p><p>There is a lot of contention between Blue and Red server folks regarding certain gear items that are simply not available to the Blue server folks. Blues think the gear is OP and this gives the Reds permanent unfair advantage, and Reds think that they deserve the advantage due to the work they put into obtaining their gear.</p><p>However, and here is my point:</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. They will never realize that they are just generally not very good at PvP yet. And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want.</span></p><p>I'm not saying the answer is easy, but SOE needs to figure out how to reconcile this controversy.</p></blockquote><p>Blue server here.. maybe I've been lucky but I've had at least a 50/50 win/loss ratio.. even against pvp players.</p></blockquote><p>This has been my experience as well which is a surprise considering I have not done much PVP in EQ2.  </p></blockquote><p>dudes, use your god given common sense.  The reason why you win 50% is because the matchmaker is random.  More or less half the time you are in a stacked grp and half the time you are not.  Now you can change those odds by going in with your owned stacked grp.  But if you are generally going in solo, a 50% success is what you should be experiencing.  The brilliance of the bgs is that they give you the illusion of playing pvp.  But your success has nothing to do with how good you are, rather its almost entirely directed at what classes the matchmaker gives you.</p>

Taldier
03-09-2010, 06:29 PM
<p><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The reason we get owned is due to gear. Make no mistakes. When you have a premade nag/vox on the other side you will be zerged by gear. It's a fact. You don't have a chance. Chance is what we blues want. We dont want an unfair advantage. Just a chance. You all are funny trying to tell us you win due to skill and the gear is irelivant. You win by ZERG due to overpowered gear. We cant L2P as long as this is the case. SoE will change this as long as we Blues stay firm on them having an absolute unfair advantage.</p><p>As I have said before. You will get owned by blues soon. As soon as SoE takes your advantage away. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have posted a large list of some of the gear that many vox/nag will not replace at 90 on another forum. I have been on my lvl 1 and doing much research. Keep up on all the posts for battlegrounds. It's in there somewhere. This isn't just a banshee ring/ear. It's much more than that. It's the gear you will still use at 90 over the gear that we all can get.</p><p>The biggest problem is the damage already done in battlegrounds by the initial release. The red servers have consumed 3 pieces of 90 battleground gear to our 1. That is a fact. There are many fully 90 geared vox/nag on 90 bg and few blue. This is very bad for the future of battlegrounds as red server advantage on release has caused an unfair advantage in the future of bg's. I said a long time ago that soe needs to fix this before it ruins the battlegrounds. Has battlegrounds found its end? We will see. I sure hope not as this could be the comeback of the king of mmorpg for us all. The eq2 player. It in my eyes has nothing to do with red/blue server but a revamp and regrand release of eq2 to up populations to pre dof all the way to kos pop's. You selfish reds are making it that much harder to get battlegrounds corrected by supporting your well earned pvp advantage in pvp. You need to understand as I have stated before. Battlegrounds is a seperate entity. It stands alone for blue/red servers to play together. Therefore there should be no items used by one server that cant be used by another. PERIOD.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, we get it, you have absolutely horrible gear in comparison to both us and your own pve breathen.  Proceeding with the post as if you are speaking for them is hilarious.</p><p>All of the t8 pvp gear except for the banshee hoop is worse than raid gear.  Every single piece is easily replaceable.  There is just no reason you should be able to aquire it using bg tokens.</p>

Armironhead
03-09-2010, 06:36 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The reason we get owned is due to gear. Make no mistakes. When you have a premade nag/vox on the other side you will be zerged by gear. It's a fact. You don't have a chance. Chance is what we blues want. We dont want an unfair advantage. Just a chance. You all are funny trying to tell us you win due to skill and the gear is irelivant. You win by ZERG due to overpowered gear. We cant L2P as long as this is the case. SoE will change this as long as we Blues stay firm on them having an absolute unfair advantage.</p><p>As I have said before. You will get owned by blues soon. As soon as SoE takes your advantage away. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have posted a large list of some of the gear that many vox/nag will not replace at 90 on another forum. I have been on my lvl 1 and doing much research. Keep up on all the posts for battlegrounds. It's in there somewhere. This isn't just a banshee ring/ear. It's much more than that. It's the gear you will still use at 90 over the gear that we all can get.</p><p>The biggest problem is the damage already done in battlegrounds by the initial release. The red servers have consumed 3 pieces of 90 battleground gear to our 1. That is a fact. There are many fully 90 geared vox/nag on 90 bg and few blue. This is very bad for the future of battlegrounds as red server advantage on release has caused an unfair advantage in the future of bg's. I said a long time ago that soe needs to fix this before it ruins the battlegrounds. Has battlegrounds found its end? We will see. I sure hope not as this could be the comeback of the king of mmorpg for us all. The eq2 player. It in my eyes has nothing to do with red/blue server but a revamp and regrand release of eq2 to up populations to pre dof all the way to kos pop's. You selfish reds are making it that much harder to get battlegrounds corrected by supporting your well earned pvp advantage in pvp. You need to understand as I have stated before. Battlegrounds is a seperate entity. It stands alone for blue/red servers to play together. Therefore there should be no items used by one server that cant be used by another. PERIOD.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, we get it, you have absolutely horrible gear in comparison to both us and your own pve breathen.  Proceeding with the post as if you are speaking for them is hilarious.</p><p>All of the t8 pvp gear except for the banshee hoop is worse than raid gear.  Every single piece is easily replaceable.  There is just no reason you should be able to aquire it using bg tokens.</p></blockquote><p>The raid guilds on naggy and vox easily outpaced the pvpers until Olihin devalued tokens and the pvpers could get the t8 gear.  But even then, the raid guilds still outperformed pvpwise, although the gap was substantially narrower.  So well geared pve players should be able to play in the bgs just as well as any reder server pvper, but  what you are all forgetting is that individual performence is irrelevant.  Rather grp makup is what is important.  Either your grp is more stacked then the other or it is not.  If you get the short end of the stick, you are going to lose and their is nothing you can do about it.  The way the bgs are designed, even if we were all equally geared, the outcome would be the same, class and grp differences would control.</p>

Shorcon
03-09-2010, 06:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The reason we get owned is due to gear. Make no mistakes. When you have a premade nag/vox on the other side you will be zerged by gear. It's a fact. You don't have a chance. Chance is what we blues want. We dont want an unfair advantage. Just a chance. You all are funny trying to tell us you win due to skill and the gear is irelivant. You win by ZERG due to overpowered gear. We cant L2P as long as this is the case. SoE will change this as long as we Blues stay firm on them having an absolute unfair advantage.</p><p>As I have said before. You will get owned by blues soon. As soon as SoE takes your advantage away. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>I have posted a large list of some of the gear that many vox/nag will not replace at 90 on another forum. I have been on my lvl 1 and doing much research. Keep up on all the posts for battlegrounds. It's in there somewhere. This isn't just a banshee ring/ear. It's much more than that. It's the gear you will still use at 90 over the gear that we all can get.</p><p>The biggest problem is the damage already done in battlegrounds by the initial release. The red servers have consumed 3 pieces of 90 battleground gear to our 1. That is a fact. There are many fully 90 geared vox/nag on 90 bg and few blue. This is very bad for the future of battlegrounds as red server advantage on release has caused an unfair advantage in the future of bg's. I said a long time ago that soe needs to fix this before it ruins the battlegrounds. Has battlegrounds found its end? We will see. I sure hope not as this could be the comeback of the king of mmorpg for us all. The eq2 player. It in my eyes has nothing to do with red/blue server but a revamp and regrand release of eq2 to up populations to pre dof all the way to kos pop's. You selfish reds are making it that much harder to get battlegrounds corrected by supporting your well earned pvp advantage in pvp. You need to understand as I have stated before. Battlegrounds is a seperate entity. It stands alone for blue/red servers to play together. Therefore there should be no items used by one server that cant be used by another. PERIOD.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, we get it, you have absolutely horrible gear in comparison to both us and your own pve breathen.  Proceeding with the post as if you are speaking for them is hilarious.</p><p>All of the t8 pvp gear except for the banshee hoop is worse than raid gear.  Every single piece is easily replaceable.  There is just no reason you should be able to aquire it using bg tokens.</p></blockquote><p>I dont want to aquire you gear unless you think its an advantage in battlegrounds. whats so bad about me saying i want to own in bg and want all the advantages available? If this gear thing isnt a huge advantage stop posting in defense of it so soe can fix it and we can see your certainty in action. In a duel with many of you reds I will own you with proper time to evaluate your gear procs and setting up to over come them. I know the class I have targeted. I recognize when I need to clear with pot or self cure if class that I'm playing has it. I dont know how to overcome the stun stiffle fear root gear procs that you have and I cant obtain. You act as if you are gonna set up with all the gear offered by bg and not use the t6 7 8 gear in any way. I doubt this as I have done some research. Check my other posts and you can see some of the gear that your red bretheren that are on here vehemently posting are not gonna change out and dont want attention drawn to. If you think you dont have a gear advantage stop posting. I like the fact that blues are actualy taking an active roll here on the forums though.</p>

bks6721
03-09-2010, 06:44 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I posted something similar to this in another thread, but felt that it deserved its own topic.</p><p>Let me start by saying that I immensely enjoy Battlegrounds. I am from a Blue server (Lucan DLere) and have been playing my templar and my dirge in Battlegrounds, and I must say that I hold my own fairly well. I do not have any Avatar gear and do not yet even have a single Battleground gear item yet, but I am learning my role given my otherwise not-too-shabby gear for now.</p><p>There is a lot of contention between Blue and Red server folks regarding certain gear items that are simply not available to the Blue server folks. Blues think the gear is OP and this gives the Reds permanent unfair advantage, and Reds think that they deserve the advantage due to the work they put into obtaining their gear.</p><p>However, and here is my point:</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. They will never realize that they are just generally not very good at PvP yet. And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want.</span></p><p>I'm not saying the answer is easy, but SOE needs to figure out how to reconcile this controversy.</p></blockquote><p>Blue server here.. maybe I've been lucky but I've had at least a 50/50 win/loss ratio.. even against pvp players.</p></blockquote><p>This has been my experience as well which is a surprise considering I have not done much PVP in EQ2.  </p></blockquote><p>dudes, use your god given common sense.  The reason why you win 50% is because the matchmaker is random.  More or less half the time you are in a stacked grp and half the time you are not.  Now you can change those odds by going in with your owned stacked grp.  But if you are generally going in solo, a 50% success is what you should be experiencing.  The brilliance of the bgs is that they give you the illusion of playing pvp.  But your success has nothing to do with how good you are, rather its almost entirely directed at what classes the matchmaker gives you.</p></blockquote><p>have you read the thread?  He said if blues get owned every time.   If people que up randomly they will not lose every single fight.    Learn to read.   I didn't mention skills, i have none.  </p>

Taldier
03-09-2010, 06:52 PM
<p><cite>Shorcon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I dont want to aquire you gear unless you think its an advantage in battlegrounds. whats so bad about me saying i want to own in bg and want all the advantages available? If this gear thing isnt a huge advantage stop posting in defense of it so soe can fix it and we can see your certainty in action. In a duel with many of you reds I will own you with proper time to evaluate your gear procs and setting up to over come them. I know the class I have targeted. I recognize when I need to clear with pot or self cure if class that I'm playing has it. I dont know how to overcome the stun stiffle fear root gear procs that you have and I cant obtain. You act as if you are gonna set up with all the gear offered by bg and not use the t6 7 8 gear in any way. I doubt this as I have done some research. Check my other posts and you can see some of the gear that your red bretheren that are on here vehemently posting are not gonna change out and dont want attention drawn to. If you think you dont have a gear advantage stop posting. I like the fact that blues are actualy taking an active roll here on the forums though.</p></blockquote><p>The gear is a huge advantages against undergeared casual [Removed for Content] players like yourself.  It is not an advantage (except for one stupid broken hoop) against pve'ers who actually accomplish the only thing there is to accomplish on a pve server.</p><p>Unless they completely destroy the mmo concept of rewarding people for effort and put all fabled gear on a free merchant that you can just walk up to and hail there is no reason for you to need this gear on the bg merchants.</p><p>Understand this:</p><p>Pvp servers have two paths to acquire fairly equivalent gear.  We can spend time pvping, or spend time pveing.  Pve servers have one path to acquire raid quality gear because the players there CHOOSE not to be involved in any alternate playstyle.</p><p>If you fail on a pve server and cannot acquire raid quality gear, then there is absolutely no reason that the pvp versions of this gear should be given to you for free as you CHOSE not to be involved in supporting pvp servers.</p><p>Is that clear enough?</p>

Armironhead
03-09-2010, 06:55 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I posted something similar to this in another thread, but felt that it deserved its own topic.</p><p>Let me start by saying that I immensely enjoy Battlegrounds. I am from a Blue server (Lucan DLere) and have been playing my templar and my dirge in Battlegrounds, and I must say that I hold my own fairly well. I do not have any Avatar gear and do not yet even have a single Battleground gear item yet, but I am learning my role given my otherwise not-too-shabby gear for now.</p><p>There is a lot of contention between Blue and Red server folks regarding certain gear items that are simply not available to the Blue server folks. Blues think the gear is OP and this gives the Reds permanent unfair advantage, and Reds think that they deserve the advantage due to the work they put into obtaining their gear.</p><p>However, and here is my point:</p><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. They will never realize that they are just generally not very good at PvP yet. And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want.</span></p><p>I'm not saying the answer is easy, but SOE needs to figure out how to reconcile this controversy.</p></blockquote><p>Blue server here.. maybe I've been lucky but I've had at least a 50/50 win/loss ratio.. even against pvp players.</p></blockquote><p>This has been my experience as well which is a surprise considering I have not done much PVP in EQ2.  </p></blockquote><p>dudes, use your god given common sense.  The reason why you win 50% is because the matchmaker is random.  More or less half the time you are in a stacked grp and half the time you are not.  Now you can change those odds by going in with your owned stacked grp.  But if you are generally going in solo, a 50% success is what you should be experiencing.  The brilliance of the bgs is that they give you the illusion of playing pvp.  But your success has nothing to do with how good you are, rather its almost entirely directed at what classes the matchmaker gives you.</p></blockquote><p>have you read the thread?  He said if blues get owned every time.   If people que up randomly they will not lose every single fight.    Learn to read.   I didn't mention skills, i have none.  </p></blockquote><p>um I did read and if you noticed while <em>you</em> were reading the two posters I was responding to commented that they had achived a 50% win rate even "against pvp players."  If you had math and reading skills, you would then see that by my post I was merely pointing out that a 50% win rate is nothing to be happy about, rather its to be expected.  If you want me to comment on the op's post, I will state that he overstates his position.  </p>

LivelyHound
03-10-2010, 07:43 AM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want.</span></p></blockquote><p>And unfortunately since the BG's came back up this is exactly what I have seen. I have only been in one match in the last two days that was not against nothing but pvp players from nagafen or vox.</p><p>Shame cos I was enjoying the BG's now, it just seems to be against the stacked grps in pvp gear who you just cant hurt. I've been actively palying and supporting the BG's since they launched and now all I see is pvp server players... maybe I'm just being unlucky but the ops statement is ringing more and more ture to me. It wont stop me playing the BG's but it sure as hell will stop some and that means less and less people overal and soon, the bg's will jus tbe an extension of the pvp servers with the occasional outsider giving them a go.</p><p>Edit:</p><p>And like the op said, its not about gear its not about skill, its about PERCEPTIONS, and the current perception from most of my bluebie friends is that its stacked in favour of pvp server palyers so there is no point bothering. I still bother, none of my guild now do.</p>

Naggasaki
03-10-2010, 08:15 AM
<p>Omg. Another thread.</p><p>Yes, the <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">PERCEPTION</span></strong> is that blue server players lose because of gear. The facts are, and I quote from several of my 'failed' pugs:</p><p>myself or any other naggy/vox player i've group with "Hey guys...we're kinda hurting here for classes...everyone's not in voice...why?"</p><p>Random 'blue voice' (i don't mean to be derogatory here) "Some people just don't like voice."</p><p>If you cannot communicate 'REAL TIME' what's going on, you will fail. The time it takes you to type out 'taunt the *instert class here* off me, you're already dead.</p><p> And again, some of you fail to even read arguments *red and blue alike* before you cry more. Ssofa even explained that Onyx used to roll x4's of PvP geard toons with just a single guild group. It happens. It's skill, coordination, communication and above all....determination.</p>

LivelyHound
03-10-2010, 08:41 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Omg. Another thread.</p><p>Yes, the <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">PERCEPTION</span></strong> is that blue server players lose because of gear. The facts are, and I quote from several of my 'failed' pugs:</p><p>myself or any other naggy/vox player i've group with "Hey guys...we're kinda hurting here for classes...everyone's not in voice...why?"</p><p>Random 'blue voice' (i don't mean to be derogatory here) "Some people just don't like voice."</p><p>If you cannot communicate 'REAL TIME' what's going on, you will fail. The time it takes you to type out 'taunt the *instert class here* off me, you're already dead.</p><p> And again, some of you fail to even read arguments *red and blue alike* before you cry more. Ssofa even explained that Onyx used to roll x4's of PvP geard toons with just a single guild group. It happens. It's skill, coordination, communication and above all....determination.</p></blockquote><p>I get that... duh. Hence I still play , use voice etc... the point is many dont because of the PERCEPTION (as you highlighted). You can quote logic facts blah blah blah it doesnt change the perceptions of players or the fact that many are now not going back to bg's. Oh and as for onxy I could care less, same goes for nagafen, vox and bluebie players. Mostly one on one I win, mostly 4 on 1 I take a few with me... then again the occasional sorc 1 shots you but hey you just go kill them for it. Im in there playing cos I enjoy it and like taking on others for a nice change from pve.</p><p>And as for failing to read, you seem to be able to read but fail to comprehend.</p>

Sigtyr
03-10-2010, 08:44 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Omg. Another thread.</p><p>Yes, the <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">PERCEPTION</span></strong> is that blue server players lose because of gear. The facts are, and I quote from several of my 'failed' pugs:</p><p>myself or any other naggy/vox player i've group with "Hey guys...we're kinda hurting here for classes...everyone's not in voice...why?"</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: georgia,palatino; color: #00ff00;">Well I was in 4 BGs yesterday, lost the first one big time, won the second one, bought lvl 80 MC PvP armor (what I could find) played 2 more and lost both (but had waaaaay better survivability compared to my T1). But in many cases yesterday people were not communicating and noone really took command over the battle. It is not hard either to communicate as I mystic I usually said that "soandso is the Tank and ill stick to him" then sometimes people did listen and sometimes not and of course sometimes I ran away from the tank (got yelled at by a Naggy player but well I learned at least). I am NOT great at this but if all tries and use voice you have a chance, the more you try the more you learn. I spent 20 plat on MC PVP gear and  + spellcasting speed jewelry yesterday and I noticed a big difference. So it is a bit about gear  but it is NOT undoable. Getting t4 shard gear is impossible for me but this is not, your mileage may vary of course.</span></p>

kcirrot
03-10-2010, 09:16 AM
<p><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">If a Blue server player tries out Battlegrounds, and they get absolutely owned every time, they are going to attribute their failure to the lack of ability to obtain what they perceive as OP gear that only PvP server players can get. When they continue to get owned, and they perceive that they will always get owned due to lack of access to that gear, they are going to <strong>quit playing Battlegrounds</strong>. They will never realize that they are just generally not very good at PvP yet. And then the fun we are all (mostly all) having will cease, and only PvP server players will be left using the Battlegrounds. I truely hope that is not what the Red server players seriously want</span>.</p></blockquote><p>I still can't figure out why winning over losing is a make or break issue for us bluebies. You don't come out with broken gear, you don't come out with XP debt, you didn't lose a chest full of gold and items you've just spent an hour obtaining, and you STILL get a token at the end to spend on gear to HELP you in the battlegrounds.</p><p>If its just a gonad size issue, then suck it up. Someone's is always going to be bigger than yours.</p><p>Red server players have PvP gear because they *gasp!* PvP. And to be quite honest, I've killed as many red players that I've been killed by- wearing T3 shard/T9 legendary gear. I've been killed by as many blue players a I've been killed by red players on top of that, but does it matter? Pft. No. Because some of the most fun matches I've ever been in have been WHERE MY TEAM LOST.</p><p>And I hate to break it to folks, but if you're not very good at PvP (and I'm really not) and instead of learning anything about how to change and adapt your play style instead of QQing about and depending on gear...you're still not going to be very good at PvP when you get all your PvP gear. If you're not very good at paying attention during a raid and instead of learning anything about how to change and adapt your play style instead of QQing about and depending on gear...you're still not going to be very good at raiding when you get all your raid gear.</p><p>The learning curve for bluebies is a sharp one, yes, but its definitely something that can be overcome. You won't learn /anything/ about how to PvP better if you win every match. Queue up until you get frustrated and stop having fun, then go do something else. But personally, I think the chance to engage these folks on other servers -some of whom have helped me learn the tricks of my class in PvE- is the majority of the fun. Which, when it comes down to it, is why you play the game in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>This x 100!</p>

ashen1973
03-10-2010, 09:36 AM
<p>I personally am having alot of fun in the BG's so far, win or lose (but then, i am perfectly content with the size of my peenis (-e), so beating other players is not such a big deal to me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> )</p><p>There are issues that , if addressed, could make them more fun, but thats for other threads. I do see where the OP is coming from though.</p><p> A lot of people do feel a high need to be winning all of the time and will fail to see that skill is an issue and blame it on gear (I do believe gear is a large part of the problem tbh, but skill is also).</p><p> These people will stop playing if the perception continues, i dont have an answer, but I do see a need to address this in some way.</p>

Odysia
03-10-2010, 10:06 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> These people will stop playing if the perception continues, i dont have an answer, but I do see a need to address this in some way.</p></blockquote><p>There is no answer, because bolting PvP onto a PvE level / gear progression based game is an afterthought doomed to fail.</p><p>My take on this.. Its suppose to be <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>P</strong></span>v<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">P</span></strong> right, which means it should be about <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">player</span></strong> skill not character gear.</p><p>Thats why if I want some PvP, I play a different game, one designed from the inside out to be PvP, where the complexities come from the intelligence of the opposition and the nature of terrain, not the fact that one player has played longer and has access to stonger gear.</p><p>If I want to play complex PvE, then I play Eq2. As a result I have zero interest in BG, and I would quite happily let it sit there and ignore it. (Like I have with LoN and SC). The problem is that if better gear comes into the PvE game via BG, then maintaining my space on our raid force might become tricky, so I may reach a point where I either have to start playing BG or stop raiding.</p><p>Consequently, imho BG was a fail before it even started.</p>

Sambone
03-10-2010, 10:12 AM
<p>Raid gear will still beat BG gear.  And for anyone that's played you will know it is actually pvp..skill trumps almost all.  Sure great gear will make it easier, but it still comes down to skill.  And tbh if someone has played longer and has access to stronger gear...um. well that's how it should be.  If you're new it'd be a shame if you could just jump into gear that people have had to work to get for a longer period of time.  Too many people trying to find problems with BG.  Just fix the bugs it's been having and it's all good.</p>

Mosha D'Khan
03-10-2010, 10:25 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I personally don't care if they get access to our gear, just as long as it takes the same amount of effort to get those items as it took us.</p><p>So for it to be fair time wise, I'd like to see 250 minutes worth of grinding on blueby servers to get the item that took me 250 minutes of grinding to get (probably more but we'll be generous.).</p></blockquote><p>just started reading this forum and found this is a completly wrong comment. it did take me as long to get my T4 as you, and yet you have the better piece of gear. yours has toughness and mine does not. you get the advantage. so if that is true how is theis fair, we spent the same time to get it. this is the problem i should not have to run BGs over and over to get 1 token every time and get 3 tokens every 5 times. i did the math and to get the 2 pieces i want i would have to do over 180 BGs...... worth it..... HELL NO. why? because you PvPers completly have the unfair advantage for the same gear i have, it is just yours has toughness and mine does not.</p>

Avirodar
03-10-2010, 10:50 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Omg. Another thread.</p><p>Yes, the <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">PERCEPTION</span></strong> is that blue server players lose because of gear. The facts are, and I quote from several of my 'failed' pugs:</p><p>myself or any other naggy/vox player i've group with "Hey guys...we're kinda hurting here for classes...everyone's not in voice...why?"</p><p>Random 'blue voice' (i don't mean to be derogatory here) "Some people just don't like voice."</p><p>If you cannot communicate 'REAL TIME' what's going on, you will fail. The time it takes you to type out 'taunt the *instert class here* off me, you're already dead.</p><p> And again, some of you fail to even read arguments *red and blue alike* before you cry more. Ssofa even explained that Onyx used to roll x4's of PvP geard toons with just a single guild group. It happens. It's skill, coordination, communication and above all....determination.</p></blockquote><p>Players from PVP servers are no better about being in VC than players from PVE servers.I have also noticed a comparable amount of people from PVP servers, as PVE servers, that have little to no interest or ability to play as a team.</p>

Odysia
03-10-2010, 10:51 AM
<p><cite>Sambone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Raid gear will still beat BG gear.  And for anyone that's played you will know it is actually pvp..skill trumps <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>almost</strong></span> all.  Sure great gear will make it easier, but it still comes down to skill. </p></blockquote><p>'Almost' all. Look, either gear gives an advantage or it doesn't. Obviously with equal skill on each side then the better equipped team will win.</p><p><cite>Sambone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And tbh if someone has played longer and has access to stronger gear...um. well that's how it should be. </p></blockquote><p>I hate to be picky, but just stating something as a fact does not form a compelling arguement. As your play time increases, so should your skill level. And according to you, SKILL is the most important thing, trumping gear in terms of importance. A good player should not need a gear advantage, even a small one.</p><p>If you think about it and equate it to other games, you'll see how crazy it is. Do you see, for example, the winners of last years FA cup being given a 1 goal head start in every match in the next season? Or If you are a chess grandmaster, do you get a special chess set with pieces that have advantages (ah, no, you can't use a knight to put my queen in check because I have the Queen of +1 Knight resistance); and frankly if you were a chess grandmaster, should you need an advantage to beat an average player?</p><p>But quite frankly, I don't care.</p><p> If you want better gear for time served, you are welcome to it, because BG has no appeal to me.... BUT as a PvE player I require that the gear does not find its way into the PvE game.</p>

Naggasaki
03-10-2010, 11:03 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Omg. Another thread.</p><p>Yes, the <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">PERCEPTION</span></strong> is that blue server players lose because of gear. The facts are, and I quote from several of my 'failed' pugs:</p><p>myself or any other naggy/vox player i've group with "Hey guys...we're kinda hurting here for classes...everyone's not in voice...why?"</p><p>Random 'blue voice' (i don't mean to be derogatory here) "Some people just don't like voice."</p><p>If you cannot communicate 'REAL TIME' what's going on, you will fail. The time it takes you to type out 'taunt the *instert class here* off me, you're already dead.</p><p> And again, some of you fail to even read arguments *red and blue alike* before you cry more. Ssofa even explained that Onyx used to roll x4's of PvP geard toons with just a single guild group. It happens. It's skill, coordination, communication and above all....determination.</p></blockquote><p>Players from PVP servers are no better about being in VC than players from PVE servers.I have also noticed a comparable amount of people from PVP servers, as PVE servers, that have little to no interest or ability to play as a team.</p></blockquote><p>Wow,  I wasn't stating 'only blubies don't get in voice' but that is what it appears you took my post to mean. Jeeze. If this were an open world PvP group, if you didn't get in voice to at least LISTEN, you'd be kicked from the group after failing to get in after two requests to do so. And yes, we kick our own kind for not being in voice. Not EVERYTHING said here is an attack on 'blue server' players.</p>

Armironhead
03-10-2010, 11:21 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sambone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Raid gear will still beat BG gear.  And for anyone that's played you will know it is actually pvp..skill trumps <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>almost</strong></span> all.  Sure great gear will make it easier, but it still comes down to skill. </p></blockquote><p>'Almost' all. Look, either gear gives an advantage or it doesn't. Obviously with equal skill on each side then the better equipped team will win.</p><p><cite>Sambone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And tbh if someone has played longer and has access to stronger gear...um. well that's how it should be. </p></blockquote><p>I hate to be picky, but just stating something as a fact does not form a compelling arguement. As your play time increases, so should your skill level. And according to you, SKILL is the most important thing, trumping gear in terms of importance. A good player should not need a gear advantage, even a small one.</p><p>If you think about it and equate it to other games, you'll see how crazy it is. Do you see, for example, the winners of last years FA cup being given a 1 goal head start in every match in the next season? Or If you are a chess grandmaster, do you get a special chess set with pieces that have advantages (ah, no, you can't use a knight to put my queen in check because I have the Queen of +1 Knight resistance); and frankly if you were a chess grandmaster, should you need an advantage to beat an average player?</p><p>But quite frankly, I don't care.</p><p> If you want better gear for time served, you are welcome to it, because BG has no appeal to me.... BUT as a PvE player I require that the gear does not find its way into the PvE game.</p></blockquote><p>tbh saying either that gear or skill is important in the bgs is ignorance.  Right now, the way soe has designed the bgs, the overwhelming deciding factors are class and grp composition.  Soe has removed every factor that made the outcome of pvp more random and unpredictable.  Now the way things stand, even if everybody was given the same gear, all that would happen would be that class differences would be come even more marked and outstanding.  The rock paper scissor aspect of the game has always been a problem lurking behind the scene, but for many x-packs open world had the tools to change things up, to allowe out classed opponents to change the odds and seize a win.  The bgs have thrown that all away.  We are now left with a game that has any fun and/or challenge squeezed out of it.  The outcome of any bg match is predictable at the moment the match commences.  While it may be fun for some folk to pretend to go through the motions of pvp, for many the bgs are getting old fast.  I for one, am just grinding tokens, when I get my set I'm done and will never look back on the bgs.  In this regard I view the bgs as just another distasteful eq2 quest akin to "go here and kill x mobs and then go there and kill y mobs."  When such a quest is done, you get your reward and dont look back.</p>

Sigtyr
03-10-2010, 11:32 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>d frankly if you were a chess grandmaster, should you need an advantage to beat an average player?<p>But quite frankly, I don't care.</p><p> If you want better gear for time served, you are welcome to it, because BG has no appeal to me.... BUT as a PvE player I require that the gear does not find its way into the PvE game.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: georgia,palatino; color: #00ff00;">This is funny as soon as something arrives in game that threathen the raid players oh so important uberness then it has to be removed. . . . .</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: georgia,palatino; color: #00ff00;">The best suggestion is to let everyone buy everything wheter it is by PvP tokens or with marks/shards, that would be fair right? If you spend a week in game doing things you should get a weeks reward right? Now PvP has AFK problems and things that should be fixed I agree and it certainly need other fixes too, but the whole discussion starts to go in a strange direction. I may get good gear (not quite comparable to raid stuff but good for what I use it for) at 90 without being a hardcore raider, I really do not understand the horrible thing about that, I will still have to spend weeks on getting the stuff just as anyone else spends time getting good gear, although I will spend it in 20 min blocks. Maybe it is a question about time, playing 3 * 20 mins are less worth than playing 60 mins straight?</span></p>

Shankapotomus
03-10-2010, 11:57 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> These people will stop playing if the perception continues, i dont have an answer, but I do see a need to address this in some way.</p></blockquote><p>There is no answer, because bolting PvP onto a PvE level / gear progression based game is an afterthought doomed to fail.</p><p>My take on this.. Its suppose to be <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>P</strong></span>v<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">P</span></strong> right, which means it should be about <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">player</span></strong> skill not character gear.</p><p>Thats why if I want some PvP, I play a different game, one designed from the inside out to be PvP, where the complexities come from the intelligence of the opposition and the nature of terrain, not the fact that one player has played longer and has access to stonger gear.</p><p>If I want to play complex PvE, then I play Eq2. As a result I have zero interest in BG, and I would quite happily let it sit there and ignore it. (Like I have with LoN and SC). The problem is that if better gear comes into the PvE game via BG, then maintaining my space on our raid force might become tricky, so I may reach a point where I either have to start playing BG or stop raiding.</p><p>Consequently, imho BG was a fail before it even started.</p></blockquote><p>LoL, you run into a raid zone with full 90 Bg gear and see where it gets you. They seperated the usefulness of PvP gear from PvE gear so people like you wouldn't QQ about it.</p><p>Looks like someone didn't get the memo.</p>

Odysia
03-10-2010, 12:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>d frankly if you were a chess grandmaster, should you need an advantage to beat an average player?<p>But quite frankly, I don't care.</p><p> If you want better gear for time served, you are welcome to it, because BG has no appeal to me.... BUT as a PvE player I require that the gear does not find its way into the PvE game.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: georgia,palatino; color: #00ff00; font-size: small;">This is funny as soon as something arrives in game that threathen the raid players oh so important uberness then it has to be removed. . . . .</span></p><p><span style="font-family: georgia,palatino; color: #00ff00; font-size: small;">The best suggestion is to let everyone buy everything wheter it is by PvP tokens or with marks/shards, that would be fair right? If you spend a week in game doing things you should get a weeks reward right? Now PvP has AFK problems and things that should be fixed I agree and it certainly need other fixes too, but the whole discussion starts to go in a strange direction. I may get good gear at 90 without being a hardcore raider, I really do not understand the horrible thing about that, I will still have to spend weeks on getting the stuff just as anyone else spends time getting good gear, although I will spend it in 20 min blocks. Maybe it is a question about time, playing 3 * 20 mins are less worth than playing 60 mins straight?</span></p></blockquote><p>I have mostly t2 and t3 with a few reasonable jewelry pieces from a mix of HQs, instances  and shard. For me, the upgrade path ought to be Marks (followed eventually by t9 raiding), but as I understand it this is surpassed by the PvP stuff.</p><p>The idea that I am some kind of elitist hardcore raider is kind of funny (as you'll see, given that we are in the same raiding alliance!)</p><p>In fact I am pretty casual about it, in the raiding alliance I'm part of whilst we try to be organised and disciplined even though we are typically raiding only once a week. Anyone that knows me knows that I'm all about inclusiveness and fitting the mission to the people, not vice versa. I'm more worried about people turning up on time having researched the strats and bringing the correct consumeables rather than having uber gear. Although of course for progression some minimum gear levels are laid down.</p><p>But Yes, what you suggest would solve the problem from my perspective. Yes, who cares what currency something is paid for with. Unfortunately, whilst I don't, a lot of other folks here do.</p>

Odysia
03-10-2010, 12:49 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL, you run into a raid zone with full 90 Bg gear and see where it gets you. They seperated the usefulness of PvP gear from PvE gear so people like you wouldn't QQ about it.</p><p>Looks like someone didn't get the memo.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not talking about a full set.</p><p>There is however a significant body of opinion that the BG jewelry, (even discarding its PvE irrelevant stats), still outperforms Mark based PVE stuff in the PvE setting. So, you're correct, <strong>someone</strong> didn't get the memo.</p>

Shankapotomus
03-10-2010, 01:16 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL, you run into a raid zone with full 90 Bg gear and see where it gets you. They seperated the usefulness of PvP gear from PvE gear so people like you wouldn't QQ about it.</p><p>Looks like someone didn't get the memo.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not talking about a full set.</p><p>There is however a significant body of opinion that the BG jewelry, (even discarding its PvE irrelevant stats), still outperforms Mark based PVE stuff in the PvE setting. So, you're correct, <strong>someone</strong> didn't get the memo.</p></blockquote><p>LoL, yes i does outperform the lvl 80 gear you currently have equipped (you can always expect that). I've found legendary jewelry items with close to the same stats.</p><p>If you are too lazy to go into BG to get a <span style="color: #ffff00;">couple</span> of pieces of gear (since you're not talking about the full set), then they deserve your raid spot due to laziness.</p><p>I guess you don't care about memos, but at least get with the program. Or start putting up your LFR tag.</p>

Odysia
03-10-2010, 01:28 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are too lazy to go into BG to get a <span style="color: #ffff00;">couple</span> of pieces of gear (since you're not talking about the full set), then they deserve your raid spot due to laziness.</p></blockquote><p>Q.E.D.</p><p>Thankyou! You have just precisely proven the point those of us that do not like PvP are trying to make; BG inevitably affects the playstyle of non PvE players who will have no option other than to do PvP in order to remain competitive for PvE.</p><p>p.s. <em>"but at least get with the program" </em> spewing management bullspeak is not an argument either. Its got nothing to do with 'laziness' and everything to do with refusing to join in whilst SOE panders to a minority playstyle at the expense of the rest of us.</p>

Taldier
03-10-2010, 01:36 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Q.E.D.</p><p>Thankyou! You have just precisely proven the point those of us that do not like PvP are trying to make; BG inevitably affects the playstyle of non PvE players who will have no option other than to do PvP in order to remain competitive for PvE.</p></blockquote><p>You arent forced to pvp in bg's, just queue up and turn on autorun while you are working on other things.  Then queue up again 15 min later.  Getting a full set is so absolutely trivial...getting a couple pieces you want is like one afternoon worth of time.</p>

Shankapotomus
03-10-2010, 01:59 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are too lazy to go into BG to get a <span style="color: #ffff00;">couple</span> of pieces of gear (since you're not talking about the full set), then they deserve your raid spot due to laziness.</p></blockquote><p>Q.E.D.</p><p>Thankyou! You have just precisely proven the point those of us that do not like PvP are trying to make; BG inevitably affects the playstyle of non PvE players who will have no option other than to do PvP in order to remain competitive for PvE.</p><p>p.s. <em>"but at least get with the program" </em> spewing management bullspeak is not an argument either. Its got nothing to do with 'laziness' and everything to do with refusing to join in whilst SOE panders to a minority playstyle at the expense of the rest of us.</p></blockquote><p>LoL, from what I recall it was PvE who wanted the BG (considering you are the majority and pull the strings around here). Us PvP'ers have seen our downfall in BG. If you talk to almost any well established PvP player they are disappointed with how this has played out, but we move on.</p><p>And it does have to do with laziness, raid more, does that help fill it in for you? The more you raid the more gear you get making BG gear irrelevant to the situation. I love how the only thing PvE can do is complain about content. We want BGs, BG gear is too hard to get, We don't want BG gear because we're lazy, and the list goes on and on.</p><p>But if you can't deal with inconvinences, <a href="https://us.battle.net/account/creation/wow/signup/" target="_blank">https://us.battle.net/account/creation/wow/signup/</a> that should do the trick.</p>

Odysia
03-11-2010, 12:01 AM
<p><cite><a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>LoL, from what I recall it was PvE who wanted the BG (considering you are the majority and pull the strings around here).</p></blockquote><p>Oh dear. This is becoming almost pythonesque. Theres a real lack of joined up thinking in your post.</p><p>You were answering my post, not the combined personality of the entire PvE population. I don't want PvP, and as such if it has to exist on my server via BG then it needs to happen in a way that it doesn't impact the PvE game. The fact that I don't want BG is clearly stated in my initial post; trying to imply that I wanted it is irrelevant. Additionally, PvE players do not pull the strings around here, SOE does. Clearly this is an attempt to widen the market appeal of their product (which is reasonable in principle, but they have missed the mark a bit in this implementation).</p><blockquote><p>Us PvP'ers have seen our downfall in BG. If you talk to almost any well established PvP player they are disappointed with how this has played out, but we move on.</p></blockquote><p>And so they should be; a lot of people aren't coming to BG to seriously attempt to fight, they are just coming for a perceived way of getting access to different kinds of gear relatively easily. That means instead of getting challenging battles, you're getting 'baby seal clubbing'. In otherwords you (collectively) have exactly the same objection that I have. iWouldn't it be better if people were going to BG solely because they actually wanted to do PvP? </p><blockquote><p>And it does have to do with laziness, raid more, does that help fill it in for you? The more you raid the more gear you get making BG gear irrelevant to the situation.</p></blockquote><p> hang on... you just finished telling me I had to go and play in BGs. Now you are saying raid more. Frankly, thats pretty high handed. I come here to express an opinion, and end up getting scolded for being lazy. Lazy is a pretty insulting term, but I'll rise above it. I don't have to justify my 'effort' in this game to you; I'm a fee paying customer of SOE, not your employee. However, the <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">point</span></strong> is that a given ammount of effort should not be easily surpassable by someone sitting watching a movie whilst occaisionally hitting their keyboard (to remain considered as active) whilst throwing a BG match.</p><blockquote><p> I love how the only thing PvE can do is complain about content. .</p></blockquote><p>Why shouldn't we; as stated above as a fee paying customer I have every right to state an opinion. if you want to argue about that opinion, please do so. But simply contradicting me (and, incidentally, yourself half the time) is not an arguement.</p><blockquote><p> We want BGs,</p></blockquote><p> Many of us don't and never have. I certainly don't. Already said that, but you aren't listening.</p><blockquote><p> BG gear is too hard to get,</p></blockquote><p> Actually, the point of view being put forward is that its too easy to get in time terms for those prepared to play (or semi-afk "play" ) in the BG.</p><blockquote><p>We don't want BG gear because we're lazy,</p></blockquote><p> No. <strong>I don't want BG gear because it involves PvP play in a game that was not designed for it</strong>. If I have a certain ammount of leisure time available to me, and I fancy some challanging PvP, I go to a game that does it properly. I already said this as well, but again you weren't listening.</p><blockquote><p>and the list goes on and on.</p></blockquote><p> I hate to be contrary, but your list (a) just stopped and (b) reveals that your mental model of my opinions on this topic are basically out by 180 degrees.</p><blockquote><p>But if you can't deal with inconvinences, <a href="https://us.battle.net/account/creation/wow/signup/" target="_blank">https://us.battle.net/account/creation/wow/signup/</a> that should do the trick.</p></blockquote><p>Ah yes, the final refuge of the lost argument; stoop to the implied insult. For the record, WOW doesn't float my boat. But I know a number of people that do play it, and frankly most of them can at least conduct a debate by considering what the other person is actually saying, and then responding to it, rather than a torrent of putting words into the other persons mouth.</p><p>Your entire post is composed of you ranting about what you think I'm saying.</p><p>Here's the thing: Contradiction, repetition and insults do not make an arguement. So unless you have something cogent to say, I suggest you don't bother. But, since you also seem to be shaping up as the sort of person that has to have the final say, why don't you just spout whatever random drivel comes into your head and I'll then studiously ignore it, ok?</p>

Thunndar316
03-11-2010, 01:04 AM
<p>They already fail.</p><p>Half of my regular PVE group wants to go to BG's and the other half does not.</p><p>I am in the latter and I now have no regular group.</p><p>/subscription cancelled</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-11-2010, 01:05 AM
<p><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They already fail.</p><p>Half of my regular PVE group wants to go to BG's and the other half does not.</p><p>I am in the latter and I now have no regular group.</p><p>/subscription cancelled</p></blockquote><p>Cool Story Bro <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

Thunndar316
03-11-2010, 01:06 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They already fail.</p><p>Half of my regular PVE group wants to go to BG's and the other half does not.</p><p>I am in the latter and I now have no regular group.</p><p>/subscription cancelled</p></blockquote><p>Cool Story Bro <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Go **** yourself bro</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-11-2010, 01:10 AM
<p><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They already fail.</p><p>Half of my regular PVE group wants to go to BG's and the other half does not.</p><p>I am in the latter and I now have no regular group.</p><p>/subscription cancelled</p></blockquote><p>Cool Story Bro <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Go **** yourself bro</p></blockquote><p>Hostility! Not everyone is going to like every part of a game, It's clear you don't like this one, Move on your way.</p><p>COOL STORY BRAH <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

bks6721
03-11-2010, 04:35 AM
<p><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>They already fail.</p><p>Half of my regular PVE group wants to go to BG's and the other half does not.</p><p>I am in the latter and I now have no regular group.</p><p>/subscription cancelled</p></blockquote><p>Sounds like BG is a success then.  Half of your friends are having fun and the other half isn't.    Fun=Win</p><p>You DO have the option of running groups with other people who do not enjoy battlegrounds.</p>

Vlahkmaak
03-11-2010, 04:54 AM
<p>Coounter to Banshee Hoop, defiler fear, necro fear, dirge fear and half a dozen other fears (its alot more than 1 piece of equippment) but the majority of you bluebears have not figured that out.  Hell, I want the Banshee Hoop on my guardian but you know what - even being on Nagafen I CANNOT get it because I am the wrong class.</p><p>Counter FEAR with:</p><p>1.) Mental resist (arcane now/ disease for other classes).</p><p>2.) Potion</p><p>3.) Troll racial</p><p>4,) Anasomethingorother - drops out of Shard fo Fear - I still use this on my guardian</p><p>5.) Sanctuary</p><p>6.) Anti fear spec'd pally (Yes some classes counter fear better than others).</p><p>7.) Sanctuary</p><p>I am sure I left out at least 4 but I am tired and it is late.</p><p>Counter Shifting band/Healer shield and scout deaggro with:</p><p>1.) Next previous PVP target.</p><p>2.) Blue AOES at detarget.</p>

PeterJohn
03-11-2010, 09:15 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Coounter to Banshee Hoop, defiler fear, necro fear, dirge fear and half a dozen other fears (its alot more than 1 piece of equippment) but the majority of you bluebears have not figured that out.  Hell, I want the Banshee Hoop on my guardian but you know what - even being on Nagafen I CANNOT get it because I am the wrong class.</p><p>Counter FEAR with:</p><p>1.) Mental resist (arcane now/ disease for other classes).</p><p>2.) Potion</p><p>3.) Troll racial</p><p>4,) Anasomethingorother - drops out of Shard fo Fear - I still use this on my guardian</p><p>5.) Sanctuary</p><p>6.) Anti fear spec'd pally (Yes some classes counter fear better than others).</p><p>7.) Sanctuary</p><p>I am sure I left out at least 4 but I am tired and it is late.</p><p>Counter Shifting band/Healer shield and scout deaggro with:</p><p>1.) Next previous PVP target.</p><p>2.) Blue AOES at detarget.</p></blockquote><p>I have not heard ANYONE say they don't know how to counter these effects. The part they are complaining about is that they don't have access to certain items to make Reds have to counter them too when going against a Blue.</p>

Cigam
03-11-2010, 09:19 AM
<p>Looks like enough cried about it.  Its not going to work in BGs anymore after todays hotfix.  I now see what tears will get a small number of people LOL</p>

Captain Apple Darkberry
03-11-2010, 10:58 AM
<p><cite>PeterJohn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still can't figure out why winning over losing is a make or break issue for us bluebies. You don't come out with broken gear, you don't come out with XP debt, you didn't lose a chest full of gold and items you've just spent an hour obtaining, and you STILL get a token at the end to spend on gear to HELP you in the battlegrounds.</p><p>If its just a gonad size issue, then suck it up. Someone's is always going to be bigger than yours.</p></blockquote><p>Then you don't understand my original post. If the perception by Blues is that they will NEVER be able to compete because they think they are losing because of OP gear that they can NEVER obtain, then they are going to stop playing Battlegrounds.</p></blockquote><p>I fully disagree.</p><p>Maybe it is the perception of /some/ blues...but not all.  The ones quaking in fear are those who are lacking in knowledge and are taking the rantings of forum politicians as the truth.</p><p>Better gear = harder to kill.  Better knowledge = harder to kill.  When you have both...</p><p>The problem is that there are some who would have you believe that the fate of BGs equality relies on the nerfing of a few select items.  It doesn't.  The skinny of it is that BGs is just like any other part of the game; understand the mechanics, select and obtain a set of the "best" gear you can accordingly, and you will fair better at BG's/Heroic Content/Raids than the player who doesn't do such or who spreads their time amongst 12 toons.</p><p>Are there different items available on both PvP servers and PvE servers?  Yes.  But given an equal amount of effort and time by the same player, he could have near identical results on either blue or red.  In short, it isn't the gear...it is you.</p>

Naggasaki
03-11-2010, 11:11 AM
<p>So, I can only naturally assume that they will also be removing the Defiler and Coercer ability to fear, the Troubador, Illusionist and Coercer ability to Mez? Because....dag gonnit...I want it too and it's just not going to be fair until they give it to me. Make it an even playing field.</p>

Muraazi
03-11-2010, 11:24 AM
<p>Yup looks like the hotfix is taking it out of the BGs... Who wants to take bets on the next "complaint" topic?</p>

Naggasaki
03-11-2010, 11:28 AM
<p>Um, how about 'WAAA! MAGES CAN'T TAUNT TOO!'</p><p>or ....'WAAA! SWASHBUCKLERS CAN'T HEAL!'</p><p>or .... even...'wow, I didn't zerg BG's for hours on end when it was first released, now my PvP armor is even more worthless that it already was' ??</p>

Muraazi
03-11-2010, 11:56 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Um, how about 'WAAA! MAGES CAN'T TAUNT TOO!'</p><p>or ....'WAAA! SWASHBUCKLERS CAN'T HEAL!'</p><p>or .... even...'wow, I didn't zerg BG's for hours on end when it was first released, now my PvP armor is even more worthless that it already was' ??</p></blockquote><p>The options are endless really lol.</p>

Shankapotomus
03-11-2010, 12:18 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's the thing: Contradiction, repetition and insults do not make an arguement. So unless you have something cogent to say, I suggest you don't bother. But, since you also seem to be shaping up as the sort of person that has to have the final say, why don't you just spout whatever random drivel comes into your head and I'll then studiously ignore it, ok?</p></blockquote><p>LoL, alright, so its ok for for you to pull out points made and find something wrong with them to help solidify your overall stance on your own opinion, but I should just listen to you cry?</p><p>But instead of looking at one post on how BGs are bad and posting on it and hoping we care about your personal testimony, read some of the other posts.</p><p>But you are right, if you don't do BGs you are going to loss your raid spot (consequently causing you to buy more tissues). If one add is going to mess up your whole view point on the game and be the end and all of your gameplay. you should oviously find a new game (I'm sorry about the WoW link, that seems to still be pushing the envelope for you). Like pong, you always know what is going to happen. And hey, if miss the ball no pointing any fingers.</p>

Hamervelder
03-11-2010, 01:37 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Q.E.D.</p><p>Thankyou! You have just precisely proven the point those of us that do not like PvP are trying to make; BG inevitably affects the playstyle of non PvE players who will have no option other than to do PvP in order to remain competitive for PvE.</p></blockquote><p>You arent forced to pvp in bg's, just queue up and turn on autorun while you are working on other things.  Then queue up again 15 min later.  Getting a full set is so absolutely trivial...getting a couple pieces you want is like one afternoon worth of time.</p></blockquote><p>You're missing the point.  If you have to use BG <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>AT ALL</strong></em></span> to upgrade your gear to play PvE, then there's a problem.  PvE gear should come from PvE sources, not from PvP sources.  Whether you're playing, AF, or just letting yourself die, if you have to zone into BG at all and get BG gear at all for PvE, then you're having to use PvP to get gear for PvE.  There's no getting around that, and your attempts to deflect that argument aren't successful.  That was the fear of many of us all along, and unfortunately, that fear is realized now, regardless of how many pieces of gear may or may not be 'needed' for PvE.</p>