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Outkasted2006
03-08-2010, 09:11 PM
<p>I am not a sorcerer but the idea on fixing wizards and warlocks is stupid. Here is why, first off, I play a FURY. I havent had a problem healing through sorcers YET in BG. Anyone that is anyone has more then 10k hps in a group. Second of all resists aren't really broke completely, and with decent resists it can be mitigated.  Now on to the meat of the reason. Mages go down like candy to any scout, and any dps'n tank. Yeah, they get a advantage of harder nukes, but they pay for it with going down EASY. My Zerk chews up mages  anywhere near his path.  Seriously , you take away the usefulness of sorcerers if you "tone down" there damage" instead of crying, Fix your strat, change your target it. Works everytime for me in BG. I pick out the main mage cause me problems, and then we as group gun him down. Seriously, less crying, less exploiting, more killing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Orthureon
03-08-2010, 10:38 PM
<p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am not a sorcerer but the idea on fixing wizards and warlocks is stupid. Here is why, first off, I play a FURY. I havent had a problem healing through sorcers YET in BG. Anyone that is anyone has more then 10k hps in a group. Second of all resists aren't really broke completely, and with decent resists it can be mitigated.  Now on to the meat of the reason. Mages go down like candy to any scout, and any dps'n tank. Yeah, they get a advantage of harder nukes, but they pay for it with going down EASY. My Zerk chews up mages  anywhere near his path.  Seriously , you take away the usefulness of sorcerers if you "tone down" there damage" instead of crying, Fix your strat, change your target it. Works everytime for me in BG. I pick out the main mage cause me problems, and then we as group gun him down. Seriously, less crying, less exploiting, more killing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Hehe, just the other day from a blue Wizard I got one shotted by a double attack Fusion. I am level 90 with 71% elemental resists. 20% toughness 19k HP and I had Divine Aura (absorbs all damage less than 50% of my max Hp so 9.5k) and Reflect (reduces incoming spell damage by 20%) up. That is very well balanced imo <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p>

mcavellero
03-08-2010, 11:14 PM
<p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am not a sorcerer but the idea on fixing wizards and warlocks is stupid. Here is why, first off, I play a FURY. I havent had a problem healing through sorcers YET in BG. Anyone that is anyone has more then 10k hps in a group. Second of all resists aren't really broke completely, and with decent resists it can be mitigated.  Now on to the meat of the reason. Mages go down like candy to any scout, and any dps'n tank. Yeah, they get a advantage of harder nukes, but they pay for it with going down EASY. My Zerk chews up mages  anywhere near his path.  Seriously , you take away the usefulness of sorcerers if you "tone down" there damage" instead of crying, Fix your strat, change your target it. Works everytime for me in BG. I pick out the main mage cause me problems, and then we as group gun him down. Seriously, less crying, less exploiting, more killing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>/agree</p><p>Just some additional insight.  I play a wizard and yes sometime I can one shot people, take down whole groups, but sometimes I cant even get a spell off because enchanters keep chain stifling/stun/mezz/interrupts going.  A Good tank will hold aggro  so well that I cant go for the healer, scout or mage on their team(most annoying thing)..I can only target the tank.  And these tanks only take 3-4k hits from my ice comets.  In addition to all the interrupts tanks have, zerkers can aoe from afar and take my life down to 50% and then 0% in the blink of an eye.  SKs can keep healing themselves.  And rangers has a huge range - can shoot a mage down before their in spell range...  When you see a fusion going off, throw an interrupt-sorcs have the longest casting times.</p><p>My point is that every class can seem OPed with a skilled player. </p>

Armawk
03-08-2010, 11:39 PM
<p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hehe, just the other day from a blue Wizard I got one shotted by a double attack Fusion. I am level 90 with 71% elemental resists. 20% toughness 19k HP and I had Divine Aura (absorbs all damage less than 50% of my max Hp so 9.5k) and Reflect (reduces incoming spell damage by 20%) up. That is very well balanced imo <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>With that kind of setup he has a very small chance of one shotting you if he stacks everything on one spell.. you have a 100% chance of kicking his behind if he doesnt one shot you. Seems fair to me.</p>

Ocaz
03-08-2010, 11:49 PM
<p>Yeah it's pretty fun when an assassin charges straight for you at every pass and takes about half a second to kill you it's either one shot him with ice comet before he notices or death</p>

Taldier
03-09-2010, 12:00 AM
<p>Gotta love all the pve sorcs who havent figured out they could be mitigating melee damage as well as a fighter and countering all those nasty cc effects with pots/sigs.</p>

Armawk
03-09-2010, 12:29 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gotta love all the pve sorcs who havent figured out they could be mitigating melee damage as well as a fighter and countering all those nasty cc effects with pots/sigs.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe some threads should be calling for fixes to weird mitigation not damage then.. Sorcerors being too hard to kill is a different subject to 'OMG I got one shotted NERF NERF!' is it not?</p>

Taldier
03-09-2010, 12:38 AM
<p><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gotta love all the pve sorcs who havent figured out they could be mitigating melee damage as well as a fighter and countering all those nasty cc effects with pots/sigs.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe some threads should be calling for fixes to weird mitigation not damage then.. Sorcerors being too hard to kill is a different subject to 'OMG I got one shotted NERF NERF!' is it not?</p></blockquote><p>They are fairly related seeing as any class should be killed as quickly as it can kill as a simple matter of balance.</p><p>I think the assumption is that most pvp sorcs perfer to retain a little bit of that survivability in which case they shouldnt be able to instantly kill anything they see.</p>

Ocaz
03-09-2010, 12:39 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gotta love all the pve sorcs who havent figured out they could be mitigating melee damage as well as a fighter and countering all those nasty cc effects with pots/sigs.</p></blockquote><p>you are so cool and amazing teach me your knowledge so I can be as leet as you please</p>

Muraazi
03-09-2010, 01:13 AM
<p>So my question for the OP is, are you playing in the lvl 90 BGs yet?</p>

Armawk
03-09-2010, 01:28 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gotta love all the pve sorcs who havent figured out they could be mitigating melee damage as well as a fighter and countering all those nasty cc effects with pots/sigs.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe some threads should be calling for fixes to weird mitigation not damage then.. Sorcerors being too hard to kill is a different subject to 'OMG I got one shotted NERF NERF!' is it not?</p></blockquote><p>They are fairly related seeing as any class should be killed as quickly as it can kill as a simple matter of balance.</p><p>I think the assumption is that most pvp sorcs perfer to retain a little bit of that survivability in which case they shouldnt be able to instantly kill anything they see.</p></blockquote><p>Then they should have rolled another class no? I dont want a squishy nuke class redefined as 'generic armoured dps class 7' to help shrinking violets feel tougher.</p>

Baztien
03-09-2010, 02:08 AM
<p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am not a sorcerer but the idea on fixing wizards and warlocks is stupid. Here is why, first off, I play a FURY. I havent had a problem healing through sorcers YET in BG. Anyone that is anyone has more then 10k hps in a group. Second of all resists aren't really broke completely, and with decent resists it can be mitigated.  Now on to the meat of the reason. Mages go down like candy to any scout, and any dps'n tank. Yeah, they get a advantage of harder nukes, but they pay for it with going down EASY. My Zerk chews up mages  anywhere near his path.  Seriously , you take away the usefulness of sorcerers if you "tone down" there damage" instead of crying, Fix your strat, change your target it. Works everytime for me in BG. I pick out the main mage cause me problems, and then we as group gun him down. Seriously, less crying, less exploiting, more killing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Hehe, just the other day from a blue Wizard I got one shotted by a double attack Fusion. I am level 90 with 71% elemental resists. 20% toughness 19k HP and I had Divine Aura (absorbs all damage less than 50% of my max Hp so 9.5k) and Reflect (reduces incoming spell damage by 20%) up. That is very well balanced imo <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>1. You let him cast Fusion</p><p>2. It doubled</p><p>There are so many different things you can do to avoid getting ruled like you did, but you didnt.do.ANY.of.them.</p>

Davian
03-09-2010, 02:34 AM
<p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am not a sorcerer but the idea on fixing wizards and warlocks is stupid. Here is why, first off, I play a FURY. I havent had a problem healing through sorcers YET in BG. Anyone that is anyone has more then 10k hps in a group. Second of all resists aren't really broke completely, and with decent resists it can be mitigated.  Now on to the meat of the reason. Mages go down like candy to any scout, and any dps'n tank. Yeah, they get a advantage of harder nukes, but they pay for it with going down EASY. My Zerk chews up mages  anywhere near his path.  Seriously , you take away the usefulness of sorcerers if you "tone down" there damage" instead of crying, Fix your strat, change your target it. Works everytime for me in BG. I pick out the main mage cause me problems, and then we as group gun him down. Seriously, less crying, less exploiting, more killing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Hehe, just the other day from a blue Wizard I got one shotted by a double attack Fusion. I am level 90 with 71% elemental resists. 20% toughness 19k HP and I had Divine Aura (absorbs all damage less than 50% of my max Hp so 9.5k) and Reflect (reduces incoming spell damage by 20%) up. That is very well balanced imo <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>This made me LOL.  If you allow a wizard to cast a spell that takes 3.5 seconds to cast and has a limited frontal aoe cone and you just stood in front of him and took it, you deserve to die.</p>

bks6721
03-09-2010, 08:06 AM
<p><cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am not a sorcerer but the idea on fixing wizards and warlocks is stupid. Here is why, first off, I play a FURY. I havent had a problem healing through sorcers YET in BG. Anyone that is anyone has more then 10k hps in a group. Second of all resists aren't really broke completely, and with decent resists it can be mitigated.  Now on to the meat of the reason. Mages go down like candy to any scout, and any dps'n tank. Yeah, they get a advantage of harder nukes, but they pay for it with going down EASY. My Zerk chews up mages  anywhere near his path.  Seriously , you take away the usefulness of sorcerers if you "tone down" there damage" instead of crying, Fix your strat, change your target it. Works everytime for me in BG. I pick out the main mage cause me problems, and then we as group gun him down. Seriously, less crying, less exploiting, more killing <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Hehe, just the other day from a blue Wizard I got one shotted by a double attack Fusion. I am level 90 with 71% elemental resists. 20% toughness 19k HP and I had Divine Aura (absorbs all damage less than 50% of my max Hp so 9.5k) and Reflect (reduces incoming spell damage by 20%) up. That is very well balanced imo <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>so far in my bg experience I am rarely able to get fusion to hit.  people just move to much.  one step left or right and I'll get "no target in range".  It's usually a last resort spell when manashield is up and the tank wants to stand face to face with me. Your best bet would be to taunt me (while moving) and let someone else knife me from behind.  That seems to be the tactic most often used to kill me.</p><p>funny story, in Smuglers Den the other day I thought I'd try to take out a Naggy Inquisitor.  Well when I was finally out of power (only have 13.8k) he proceed to smash my skull in.  I don't think I ever had him lower than 80%.  I should have just ran away but I figued he earned the kill.   lol</p>

Dorsan
03-09-2010, 08:14 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>...one step left or right and I'll get "no target in range".</blockquote><p>Turn on melee.</p>

bks6721
03-09-2010, 06:19 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>...one step left or right and I'll get "no target in range".</blockquote><p>Turn on melee.</p></blockquote><p>that works unless you get taunted, which happens alot when they have good tanks.</p>

Outkasted2006
03-10-2010, 09:57 PM
<p>If you tone down damage of wizards/warlocks what use do they have. they are what they are damage dealers, but they for it by being very easily killed, tone down there damage, i won't want to have them in my group.</p>

Notsovilepriest
03-10-2010, 10:00 PM
<p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you tone down damage of wizards/warlocks what use do they have. they are what they are damage dealers, but they for it by being very easily killed, tone down there damage, i won't want to have them in my group.</p></blockquote><p>I find this funny, because every other mage has less DPS and surviviability than you guys</p>

Outkasted2006
03-10-2010, 10:27 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you tone down damage of wizards/warlocks what use do they have. they are what they are damage dealers, but they for it by being very easily killed, tone down there damage, i won't want to have them in my group.</p></blockquote><p>I find this funny, because every other mage has less DPS and surviviability than you guys</p></blockquote><p>I am not one of them. I am just saying toning them down is stupid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Taldier
03-10-2010, 10:39 PM
<p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Outkasted2006 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you tone down damage of wizards/warlocks what use do they have. they are what they are damage dealers, but they for it by being very easily killed, tone down there damage, i won't want to have them in my group.</p></blockquote><p>I find this funny, because every other mage has less DPS and surviviability than you guys</p></blockquote><p>I am not one of them. I am just saying toning them down is stupid <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Its not toning them down...its fixing all of the damage mechanics that were completely broken by this xpac.  While we often complained on pvp servers about inbalances, generally crusaders in particular, the truth is the system was atleast fairly balanced among high end geared players in comparison to the completely destroyed ruleset we have now.</p><p>Before the xpac there were still scattered complaints of sorcs oneshotting people.  Generally this was just a lucky double crit getting off on someone from a well geared wizard.  With SF and Bg's the prior pvp mechanics have been completely and fundamentally altered.</p><p>This isnt about nerfing one class or another class.  Fixing tiny problems here and there is not going to fix the overall problem.  The problem is that we are currently playing a pvp beta for a pvp system that has already been developed and tweaked into balance for 4 years.</p><p>A balanced system that was completely destroyed so that PVE servers could have their bg's and bg gear without messing up their precious raid progession.</p><p>This is the problem.</p>

Baztien
03-10-2010, 11:00 PM
<p>The mechanics are the same.</p><p>We have now have more access to Potency and Crit Bonus items.</p><p>Nothing was "broken" things are just inflated, there's a difference there.</p>

Taldier
03-10-2010, 11:09 PM
<p><cite>Baztien wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The mechanics are the same.</p><p>We have now have more access to Potency and Crit Bonus items.</p><p>Nothing was "broken" things are just inflated, there's a difference there.</p></blockquote><p>No they are not.  They have completely changed the way damage is balanced by creating the new stat toughness which does not work in the same way as crit mit.  They have also changed the way resists operate and are calculated, this is not supposition.  Devs have talked about it multiple times.  They have also tweaked mitigation rates.  They have also accidentally broken several things which are known issues.</p><p>This is not related to a increase in gear stats, lvl 80 players experience the exact same changes fighting vs other lvl 80 players.  Please go back to your blubie forums since you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.</p>

Baztien
03-10-2010, 11:14 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Baztien wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The mechanics are the same.</p><p>We have now have more access to Potency and Crit Bonus items.</p><p>Nothing was "broken" things are just inflated, there's a difference there.</p></blockquote><p>No they are not.  They have completely changed the way damage is balanced by creating the new stat toughness which does not work in the same way as crit mit.  They have also changed the way resists operate and are calculated, this is not supposition.  Devs have talked about it multiple times.  They have also tweaked mitigation rates.  They have also accidentally broken several things which are known issues.</p><p>This is not related to a increase in gear stats, lvl 80 players experience the exact same changes fighting vs other lvl 80 players.  Please go back to your blubie forums since you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.</p></blockquote><p>Toughness. Okay it doesnt work the same as crit mit, it's new. How is it broken?</p><p>Resist calculations. Mitigation rates. Okay, I'll let you play this one through, bring the links.</p><p>Several broken things, known issues. Besides server operations, bring the links.</p><p>I'll suffice to melting you if you ever man-up to a BG</p>

Taldier
03-10-2010, 11:25 PM
<p><cite>Baztien wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Baztien wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The mechanics are the same.</p><p>We have now have more access to Potency and Crit Bonus items.</p><p>Nothing was "broken" things are just inflated, there's a difference there.</p></blockquote><p>No they are not.  They have completely changed the way damage is balanced by creating the new stat toughness which does not work in the same way as crit mit.  They have also changed the way resists operate and are calculated, this is not supposition.  Devs have talked about it multiple times.  They have also tweaked mitigation rates.  They have also accidentally broken several things which are known issues.</p><p>This is not related to a increase in gear stats, lvl 80 players experience the exact same changes fighting vs other lvl 80 players.  Please go back to your blubie forums since you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.</p></blockquote><p>Toughness. Okay it doesnt work the same as crit mit, it's new. How is it broken?</p><p>Resist calculations. Mitigation rates. Okay, I'll let you play this one through, bring the links.</p><p>Several broken things, known issues. Besides server operations, bring the links.</p><p>I'll suffice to melting you if you ever man-up to a BG</p></blockquote><p>You want me to reread every thread on the pvp forums from the last two months for you?  I already summarized, go do it yourself lol.</p><p>Resists alone have been changed more than once.  Toughness has been tweaked but still isnt balanced properly.</p><p>They changed OUR pvp system.  Any pvper will tell you that pvp balance has fundamentally changed since the xpac.</p><p>You dont just change mechanics that arent broken and not even let us test them until they go live.  Or we end up with what we have now.</p>

Dorsan
03-10-2010, 11:41 PM
Either the system is broken or the damage of spells in PvP is set to insane ammount. By the description of the developers each % toughness gives you 1.5% critical mitigaiton for PvP. Hence if you have 30% toughness, you also have 45% critical mitigation in PvP. (that is my case) I also have around 65% mitigation vs all 3 magic types. Now let's see how high that Ice Bolt needs to hit me originally - before the mitigation - to one shot me. Say a 16k Ice Bolt will do the trick. Since the toughness damage reduction is applied after all mitigation we need to remove that one first. To get hit by 16.000 with my 30% toughness the original hit needed to be 22.857, because 30% toughness means that I am taking 70% of the incoming damage, and 70% of 22.857 is 16.000. But this damage came through my magic mitigation as well. Since it is 65%, it means that I only got hit with 35% of the original unmitigated value. So then it means that the original spell hit me for 65306. But the 65306 hit came after my 45% PvP critical mitigation. Now this part is not as straightforward to calculate, but lets assume that the wizzard had 2 crit multiplier. In this case I got hit by a 1.55 crit multiplier because of my 45% PvP critical mitigation. So the actualy full critical was 90.077. Now let's see that spell without the crit applied. This is easy if we are still assuming that the crit multiplier of that wizzard was 2, all we need to do is divide the 90.077 by 2. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That gives us 45.039 damage of Ice Bolt in PvP. Now a wizzy can easily examine their Ice Bolt and check the PvP icon. If the damage is indeed 45.039 then the mitigation and toughness are working as described by developers. If the damage is not around that value it means that spell damage is indeed not mitigated as it should be.

Ralpmet
03-11-2010, 12:30 AM
<p>It's funny on an inq because I can melee scouts down in ~6-8 seconds if they don't have heals, however on wizards/warlocks I can't possibly kill one geared to the same level as me.</p><p>Pre expansion the only classes that gave me trouble (you have to remember, I'm a healer, so by "giving me trouble" i mean running me out of power before themselves) were other healers, sks and pally's.</p><p>Now, I dominate other healers, SKs, Pallys, Scouts, but mages 2 shot me. I'm sorry, I guess it would make sense to have that one archtype that owns my archtype, but mages 2 shotting someone with 70-80% in resists and 15k hp is kind of shady.</p>

Outkasted2006
03-11-2010, 02:07 AM
<p><cite>Ralpmet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It's funny on an inq because I can melee scouts down in ~6-8 seconds if they don't have heals, however on wizards/warlocks I can't possibly kill one geared to the same level as me.</p><p>Pre expansion the only classes that gave me trouble (you have to remember, I'm a healer, so by "giving me trouble" i mean running me out of power before themselves) were other healers, sks and pally's.</p><p>Now, I dominate other healers, SKs, Pallys, Scouts, but mages 2 shot me. I'm sorry, I guess it would make sense to have that one archtype that owns my archtype, but mages 2 shotting someone with 70-80% in resists and 15k hp is kind of shady.</p></blockquote><p>Ralph my question to you is this  real fast.. your in pvp gear right?  (pretty sure u are) i mean who wasn't part of that hump fest we called kylong plains.</p>

Muraazi
03-11-2010, 02:17 AM
<p><cite>Baztien wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The mechanics are the same.</p><p>We have now have more access to Potency and Crit Bonus items.</p><p>Nothing was "broken" things are just inflated, there's a difference there.</p></blockquote><p>I noticed it the first day of the expansion as did many people on the pvp servers. This was one week before BGS. When everyone was in the same gear same lvls. It's borked atm.</p>