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Elepian
02-27-2010, 02:13 AM
<p>Ok so 2nd day through Battlegrounds with my guild, we decided to do a quick one didnt have a healer just went in straight DPS and had 2 spots left open for fillers.  Start up in Gears of Klakanon and our opponents, vox server players.  Our teammates well one of them was a vox player, the other a befallen player.  During the match we noticed our vox teammate was not doing anything against his fellow server community.. [Removed for Content]!?  We attempted to run through anyways without him and got our arses handed to us to put it nicely.  PvP gear against PvE gear? Pitting newcomers against experienced Pvpers? I've pvped myself but can't see how others would maintain the initiative to keep trying if its going to be against PvP players in PvP gear.  Will keep trying and hope it was just a bad mix-  Just thought you should know that such match-making can quickly destroy a players initiative to continue in content they cannot progress in when they keep losing at something they are new to.  </p><p>- Elepian Stormspirit- </p>

Nayawk
02-27-2010, 03:09 AM
<p>PVP vs PVE is going to the sticking point for alot of people. </p><p>PVP players have the gear and the experience to wipe the floor with a PVE pug, and I'm sorry but being beaten into the floor over and over and over again isn't fun and isn't going to win over those PVE's who are on the fence about battlegrounds.</p><p>Yes the answer is get battleground gear, but when getting geared up takes 40 rounds x 7 of being crushed then it really does put people off bothering.</p><p>I have played alot of battleground today and have mostly found myself up against guild groups of nagafen or vox players usually pitted against a random pug. This is never going to be a fair fight and in the end alot of the pug just stand there and watch the timer tick away due to the pointlessness of it all.</p><p>I don't mind losing at all, and the few matches where there was a good mix of people on both sides and the game was balanced I had a complete blast, even when we lost.</p><p>Also something I've noticed.. a few times nagafen player have joined.. seen there were non-pvp players on the team and have quit. Make of that what you will.</p>

asaron
02-27-2010, 12:42 PM
<p>get the level 80 mastercrafted mara set it will go a long ways and on the subject of pvp players bailing on a bluebie team we are used to pvp we understand the tactics gear aa set ups  ost prefer to roll with people that understand the mechaincs i myself find it funny being the only nagafen player on a team i roll out and everyone follows me and auto assissts lol</p>

asaron
02-27-2010, 12:43 PM
<p>just to clarify the 80 mara set has the exact same amount of toughness pvp players level 80 pvp set has</p>

Ahlana
02-27-2010, 12:46 PM
<p><cite>asaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>get the level 80 mastercrafted mara set it will go a long ways and on the subject of pvp players bailing on a bluebie team we are used to pvp we understand the tactics gear aa set ups  ost prefer to roll with people that understand the mechaincs i myself find it funny being the only nagafen player on a team i roll out and everyone follows me and auto assissts lol</p></blockquote><p>PVP MC items FTW.. it goes a looooong way for survivability in the BGs. I have yet to see anyone bail yet but I am not saying it doesn't happen either though.</p>

Wurm
02-27-2010, 02:02 PM
<p>Guys all PVP games have to be learned. I have two friends who play BF2 all the time. When I play with them I get my butt handed to me over and over but each time I play I get better.</p><p>Its a learning curve.</p>

Ace235228
02-27-2010, 02:13 PM
<p><cite>Wurm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Guys all PVP games have to be learned. I have two friends who play BF2 all the time. When I play with them I get my butt handed to me over and over but each time I play I get better.</p><p>Its a learning curve.</p></blockquote><p>FPS's are based mainly on skill. MMOs are based mainly on gear. Player skill or not, if you absorb more than 50% of my pvp damage and I can only absorb about 15% of yours, who do you think is going to win?</p>

Jupios
02-27-2010, 03:01 PM
<p><cite>Rob Pardo wrote:</cite>We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it.It's tricky, now that we've gone down that road, because we have a passionate, large audience that enjoys it - the Arena, the e-sport - so we can't just chop off that head. We can't just say, "We fouled up and will go back to how it used to be before," because we have a really passionate audience that wants it in the game.If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there."</p><p>Sometimes its a good idea to learn from your competitors, and I think this statement is very aplicable. Dont get me wrong, I'm in favor of adding BGs. Im in favor of adding content of all sorts to this incredibly rich game. However, if PVP is taken to seriously in eq2 and it begins to effect PVE, I dont think it will work out well for the SOE proffit margin. Players mostly love this game for its PVE.  Personaly, Id rather see a ton more quests and such in the new xpack than BGs. My 2 cents <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

Nayawk
02-27-2010, 05:08 PM
<p>Yes it is a learning curve, I am better today than I was yesterday just from knowing the maps and goals etc. and I will keep plugging away.</p><p>The point is that there was alot of resistance to battleground from the PVE servers, and alot of PVE player who really are on the fence about the whole thing, people who aren't really sure but are willing to give it a go. If the first day is nothing but crushing them into the ground over and over again, well you don't get that first impression back.</p><p>An example of this, smugglers den map, 6 of us corner a SK all by himself....he takes <strong>no</strong> damage at all and kills us all. OK fair enough its a combo of class and good pvp gear, but chat was full of "what the f***" "This is stupid" "I'm not playing this anymore" etc etc.</p><p>I do think that there is an arugement to be had for PVE only and PVP only battlegrounds. </p><p>IF pvp players are quiting when they see a non pvp mixed  group then its obvious that at least some of the pvp population doesn't want to play with us, and surely wiping the floor in a totally unfair fight can't be fun for any length of time.  And the same goes for pve players only in reverse.</p>

Cabel
02-27-2010, 05:14 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok so 2nd day through Battlegrounds with my guild, we decided to do a quick one didnt have a healer just went in straight DPS and had 2 spots left open for fillers.  Start up in Gears of Klakanon and our opponents, vox server players.  Our teammates well one of them was a vox player, the other a befallen player.  During the match we noticed our vox teammate was not doing anything against his fellow server community.. [Removed for Content]!?  We attempted to run through anyways without him and got our arses handed to us to put it nicely.  PvP gear against PvE gear? Pitting newcomers against experienced Pvpers? I've pvped myself but can't see how others would maintain the initiative to keep trying if its going to be against PvP players in PvP gear.  Will keep trying and hope it was just a bad mix-  Just thought you should know that such match-making can quickly destroy a players initiative to continue in content they cannot progress in when they keep losing at something they are new to.  </p><p>- Elepian Stormspirit- </p></blockquote><p>you give up too easily.  Keep trying and doing.  It's the only way to get experienced.</p><p>I play on Najena, btw.</p>

TalisX1
02-27-2010, 06:09 PM
<p><cite>Nayawk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes it is a learning curve, I am better today than I was yesterday just from knowing the maps and goals etc. and I will keep plugging away.</p><p>The point is that there was alot of resistance to battleground from the PVE servers, and alot of PVE player who really are on the fence about the whole thing, people who aren't really sure but are willing to give it a go. If the first day is nothing but crushing them into the ground over and over again, well you don't get that first impression back.</p><p>An example of this, smugglers den map, <span style="color: #ffff00;">6 of us corner a SK all by himself....he takes <strong>no</strong> damage </span>at all and kills us all. OK fair enough its a combo of class and good pvp gear, but chat was full of "what the f***" "This is stupid" "I'm not playing this anymore" etc etc.</p><p>I do think that there is an arugement to be had for PVE only and PVP only battlegrounds. </p><p>IF pvp players are quiting when they see a non pvp mixed  group then its obvious that at least some of the pvp population doesn't want to play with us, and surely wiping the floor in a totally unfair fight can't be fun for any length of time.  And the same goes for pve players only in reverse.</p></blockquote><p>It is because they broke the PvP mechanics all to hell with the expansion. That is not normal PvP. Look at all the complaints on the nagafen forums. Alot of stuff was broken with the expansion and none of i has been completely fixed yet. Mit is broken, resists are broken. Enter the SK a casting, plate wearing ,lifetapping toon. Of course he is massively OP, the underlying mechanics for everything he does are broken in his favor.</p><p>Having said that....don't give up. Wait a week or two and hopefully they will have most of the mechanics issues fixed.</p><p>Silat</p>

asaron
02-27-2010, 09:50 PM
<p>yes sk are tough but they are not one of the so called broke classes people are crying about ont he forums due to the new changes sk 's have caused tears for many a year atm the mages are the biggest problem virtually immune to melee without the aa specs tha twould normally stop and too many 1 shots</p>

Elepian
02-27-2010, 10:01 PM
<p>I haven't given up as I said before I'll keep giving it a try, I also said I was an experienced Naggy Player though not for level 80s, my main on Naggy is a 49 wizard.  I do agree that it might be worth it to look into possible PvE Battlegrounds and then PvP Battlegrounds.  I love to PvP , its a great way to vent frustration out.  But when your pitted against Nagafen guild vs your Random Robin group it makes things difficult on the player that has never pvped before.  I am looking at it from a players perspective who has never pvped.  And I agree that if it does get out of hand to where classes start getting balanced to /pvp feedback vs /pve feedback, it could in the long run, damage the playerbase population.   That being said today wasn't too bad, went against a naggy guild in Ganak and pwned them with only 3 naggy players in our sides team and the rest scattered.  Its about working together, if you can't get into a group/raid that works together , like most heroic dungeons, and like a raid encounter, it will fail.  Everytime. </p><p>So here is what I think is the best new PVP player learning curve for Battlegrounds : </p><p>Start with Battlefields of Ganak- CTF Scenario, requires players to capture the opposing teams flag and return it to their base.  </p><p><strong>Pros- Larger area, more players, more difficult objective. </strong><em>I'll improvise on the more players and say the right amount of players instead of more.  </em></p><p><strong>Cons- More players to go up against, and if groups do not stick together, you will die as much as you do in gears or smugglers den. </strong></p><p>Doing the Ganak Scenario allows you to have more of a strategy to either defend or attack, as well as more locations in which you can attack your enemy from.  </p><p>Then move to Gears of Klak'Anon - Hold the Relic Scenario, requires players to hold relic ( kills the holder overtime ) as long as they possibly can to score extra points for their team.</p><p><strong>Pros- </strong> <strong>Smaller area, less players you are going against.  </strong></p><p><strong>Cons- Less players, very easy objective and not much wiggle room.  </strong></p><p>This map doesn't allow for much strategy, it is basic.  Hold the relic defend the one holding it, and 95% of the time its Hide away from the battle until the time runs out or you gain 700 points.  This map easily discourages players from competing especially if you are doing a random group.  </p><p>Move on finally to Smuggler's Den- Capture the Territory Scenario- ( Think Warhammer Online's Scenarios. &nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Your objective here is to capture as many of the territories as possible to score your team a fast amount of extra points.  MUST HAVE COOPERATION THROUGHOUT ENTIRE RAID- </p><p><strong>Pros- Largest area of the three ( double edged sword) , Max players, lots of time in scenario due to difficult objective </strong></p><p><strong>Cons- largest area of the three and so it takes the alot of time to get through to your objectives and to the battle. , If there is no cooperation throughout raid force, your team will fail miserably, point blank, fail.  As this is a capture territory scenario alot of times the same strategy your used to won't work as most the time , the raid force will come as a bulk or combined whole and just plant themselves in a territory you need to capture while they have a few others going out of the fray taking the territories you just fought for. </strong></p><p>That is the best advice I can give to any new BG players.  That and Don't give up, anyone can be beaten, you just need to get a dedicated group setup to go into these things and hash them out.  When I get my guild together we annihilate the opposing team no matter what server they are from, but with Random PuGs, its hit or miss hehe.  </p>

Nayawk
02-27-2010, 10:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then move to Gears of Klak'Anon - Hold the Relic Scenario, requires players to hold relic ( kills the holder overtime ) as long as they possibly can to score extra points for their team.</p><p><strong>Pros- </strong> <strong>Smaller area, less players you are going against.  </strong></p><p><strong>Cons- Less players, very easy objective and not much wiggle room.  </strong></p><p>This map doesn't allow for much strategy, it is basic.  Hold the relic defend the one holding it, and 95% of the time its Hide away from the battle until the time runs out or you gain 700 points.  This map easily discourages players from competing especially if you are doing a random group.  </p></blockquote><p>I actually think Gears is the worst of the bunch if you get a mis-matched group.   Gears is very much about gear rather than strat due to the close quarters.  I'd probably go Ganak, Smugglers then Gears.</p><p>Today up against a SK and a Templar with the relic... they didn't even try to hide or move away, just stood in the middle and let us wail away at them.. the SK held the relic the nearly the entire game.</p>

Elepian
03-02-2010, 06:48 PM
<p><cite>Nayawk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then move to Gears of Klak'Anon - Hold the Relic Scenario, requires players to hold relic ( kills the holder overtime ) as long as they possibly can to score extra points for their team.</p><p><strong>Pros- </strong> <strong>Smaller area, less players you are going against.  </strong></p><p><strong>Cons- Less players, very easy objective and not much wiggle room.  </strong></p><p>This map doesn't allow for much strategy, it is basic.  Hold the relic defend the one holding it, and 95% of the time its Hide away from the battle until the time runs out or you gain 700 points.  This map easily discourages players from competing especially if you are doing a random group.  </p></blockquote><p>I actually think Gears is the worst of the bunch if you get a mis-matched group.   Gears is very much about gear rather than strat due to the close quarters.  I'd probably go Ganak, Smugglers then Gears.</p><p>Today up against a SK and a Templar with the relic... they didn't even try to hide or move away, just stood in the middle and let us wail away at them.. the SK held the relic the nearly the entire game.</p></blockquote><p>You have a point and I confirmed that after a run through them all yesterday.  Make gears the last, as You say.. /agree  </p><p>But I also said that it easily discourages players from continuing to compete in BGs.. Kith server must be entirely against them all altogether as when SOE said they would be down until today, there were more requests for them to be removed entirely and never have them return , as they disliked the lag it gave to players just questing.  I and several others enjoy BGs, and look forward to more Bgs. Keep up the good work SOE. </p>