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View Full Version : The final nail in the coffin of open world pvp!


asaron
02-26-2010, 01:14 PM
<p>Please isolate bg gear to bg's only by offering identical gear that is  attainable by sitting in a instance you have destroyed open world pvp on nagafen. No point to even try to gear up in  REAL PVP if everyone is zerging the bg for easy fast gear isolate them bg gear bg only!</p>

Brimestar
02-26-2010, 01:56 PM
<p>I posted something about this on the pvp section....Here is the link</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=472010" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=472010</a></p>

Attrikane
02-26-2010, 02:04 PM
<p>Nagafen is slaughtering the other servers as it is.  Now you want them to change things to suit 1 server?  You poor guys.</p>

Brimestar
02-26-2010, 02:07 PM
Why you trolling around? You can't use the pvp procs in Smurf land anyhow....

asaron
02-26-2010, 02:18 PM
<p>Attricane  my proposed change has nothing to do with bluebie servers im am speaking of nagafen only THE REAL PVP SERVER.  You as a bluebie do not fully understand how this is affecting pvp on nagafen im sorry but this instanced bluebie crap is not pvp.  I stood afk on kerra isle  for about an hour not one soul came at me  this was the former major pvp hub prior to bluebie bg being live  you could barely get near the island withotu a group now you can just sit there and might find a kill   and i stress MIGHT  heavily!  Its killing open world pvp we that started on nagafen understand what real pvp is  and its beign destroyed by allowing bg gear t be used in open world.</p>

Brimestar
02-26-2010, 02:22 PM
<p>He is absolutely correct...</p>

Bassman
02-26-2010, 02:25 PM
<p>Totally agree.  With everyone zerging BG, there is no PVP around anymore.  And when you guys do get full BG'd out, and come out looking for pvp to use it again, don't expect to find any anymore.  And if you do find it, look for them to cliff dive or evac since they convienently fixed the evac in combat bug right before BG came out.</p>

Edavi
02-26-2010, 02:50 PM
<p>I really hate to admit it... But I am having more fun in BGs right now than running around  in open world PVP.  While Queing up alone isnt ideal, it is much better than going out and PVPing alone (as a non scout).  You at least get a random chance at a healer to be with you and all that.</p><p>I am not saying that BGs are better than open world, and I dont think they should be, I am just sayin the honest truth that I am having more fun in there right now.  Not because of the rewards, I am 83, I cant use the rewards for another decade, but jus thte way it is, it is cool being able to interact with the people from otehr servers and such and yadi yadi yadi.</p><p>The thing is, I dont think this is how it should be.  Making BG gear the exact same as PVP gear is lazy and idiodic.  When I first looked at BG gear  thought, oh cool these will be viable in open PVP, assuming that open PVP rewards would be better... But they are exactly the same.  While I believe that players should take the most fun outlet to get gear, I mean, that is why we play.  I do not agree with SOE's undying NEED to make PVP gear so [Removed for Content] easy to get.  There wouldnt be this big issue with separating PVE and PVP gear if they didnt make PVP gear so EASY!, and it just gets easier and easier!  You get tokens if you lose for christ sake!  You can join, go make a sandwich and come back 1 token richer!</p>

Neskonlith
02-26-2010, 03:22 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The BGs are fun, and they aren't broken in such a way that only certain classes benefit from pvp like the REAL (broken) PVP server currently is.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Stop hating on the BeeGees: the exploiters drove many more players into playing something that is both fair and FUN for all!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Long live the BeeGees!</span></p>

Hellswrath
02-26-2010, 04:13 PM
<p>Actually, I'm in favor of this as well.  I played only briefly on a PvP server, but have extensive time under my belt from WAR.</p><p>The incentive to go out and play open-world pvp has been completely overshadowed by the speed at which PvP geared players can go earn the new BG armor.  Then they can take that armor and use it in open-world PvP.  This means that anyone hoping to compete with these players who got fully geared out so fast must also get the BG gear first, and then go back to open PvP.  Bad plan, IMO.</p><p>A possible solution would be to remove the toughness stat from non-BG armor and remove the use of toughness from open-world PvP while adding other bonuses to PvP gear or disabling the use of all BG armor procs except while in BG. </p><p>Or perhaps merely switch open-world pvp to an identical toughness system using a new stat that works identically to toughness.  This would effectively split BG and open-world PvP. </p><p>Either way, something should be done.</p>

Crismorn
02-26-2010, 05:30 PM
<p>Sorry that there are less people to zerg on in one zone which you laughingly called pvp.</p><p>Truly sorry</p>

Ahlana
02-26-2010, 05:36 PM
<p>Open world PVP was killed when the zerging happened... true story.</p>

asaron
02-26-2010, 09:35 PM
<p>and what exactly do you think bg's are if you dont go in with a pre set group a zerg plain and simple those defending the bg's gear just want easy tokens no different than those that hugged tg and dregs.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE THIS IS KILLING WHATS LEFT OF OPEN WORLD PVP.   dont get me wrong bg's are cool and they have there place  but they should not have equal rewards that are useable in open world</p>

asaron
02-26-2010, 09:37 PM
<p>OHH AND IF YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN ON NAGAFEN OR CURRENTLY DONT PLAY ON IT PLEASE DONT COMMENT ON THE CURRENT STATE OF ITS PVP!</p>

Crismorn
02-26-2010, 11:13 PM
<p><cite>asaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and what exactly do you think bg's are if you dont go in with a pre set group a zerg plain and simple those defending the bg's gear just want easy tokens no different than those that hugged tg and dregs.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE THIS IS KILLING WHATS LEFT OF OPEN WORLD PVP.   dont get me wrong bg's are cool and they have there place  but they should not have equal rewards that are useable in open world</p></blockquote><p>bgs are a team based objective with even # players on both sides.</p><p>open pvp is a giant zerg of scrubs who specifically go into one zone so they can aquire tokens on people that happen to be the zergs current target.</p><p>One requires tactics and teamwork while the other requires neither.</p><p>I could see instance pvp being an issue if there was any sort of loss in pvp, but you cant lose anything by failing so why should it be rewarded better or differently?</p>

screwballtheoneandonly
02-26-2010, 11:29 PM
<p><strong><em>to the scrubtastic person who came up with bg's  :1st stop copying other games idea's ie warhammer's bg's</em></strong></p><p><strong><em>                                                                                      2nd  make sure what your bringing into this game works before  going live with it . the pvp dev in charge of this horse crap  battle grounds get rid of it .....bring back true pvp  </em></strong></p><p><strong><em></em></strong></p><p><strong><em>                                                                      Rafmer   </em></strong></p>

Gortesh
02-26-2010, 11:45 PM
<p><cite>asaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Please isolate bg gear to bg's only by offering identical gear that is  attainable by sitting in a instance you have destroyed open world pvp on nagafen. No point to even try to gear up in  REAL PVP if everyone is zerging the bg for easy fast gear isolate them bg gear bg only!</p></blockquote><p>Agreed. BG PvP Gear is too easy to obtain currently.</p><p>Overland PvP has been destroyed on Nagafen, sadly. :/</p>

Dillin
02-27-2010, 02:55 AM
<p>My question is.... why are PvPers that have PvP gear allowed to play against "scrubs" as you call it, from PvE server who don't have crap for PvP gear.</p><p>Call it what you like but BGs are for PvEers that want some PvP, not so we can gear someone up on a PvP server.</p><p>IMO, PvP servers shouldn't even be allowed to get into open world BGs.</p>

asaron
02-27-2010, 12:50 PM
<p>guys keep this civil   this is not a flame thread and to the blue server people  my issue concerns naggy  and the death of its pvp due to bg gear being useable in open world pvp /pve  you guys dont even have open world pvp so its not an issue to you  im not proposeing they be close which wouldnt happen anyway soe stole this idea its here to stay.</p>

Ahlana
02-27-2010, 01:00 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bazaar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My question is.... why are PvPers that have PvP gear allowed to play against "scrubs" as you call it, from PvE server who don't have crap for PvP gear.</p><p>Call it what you like but BGs are for PvEers that want some PvP, not so we can gear someone up on a PvP server.</p><p>IMO, PvP servers shouldn't even be allowed to get into open world BGs.</p></blockquote><p>You could get mastercrafted PVP gear you know.... so you know then you would be PVP gear vs PVP gear... just saying</p>

Melodii
02-27-2010, 01:55 PM
<p>I was super disapointed to see that the battle grounds gear was the same as the stuff i had just been working hard for with the odus tokens. I spend entire days gathering up enough for the 2 pieces i had bought that i get in a couple hours from bg's. I think they should have made different gear for the battlegrounds for sure.. but we cant change it now.</p><p>I on the other hand REALY enjoy battle grounds but I can see where it would take away from open pvp, however like most things people will get burnt on them, and go back to killing those with a little skill, and not so many bluebies. Just give it time, its only been a couple days</p>

screwballtheoneandonly
02-27-2010, 06:07 PM
<p><strong><em>I  feel the same way   mel, just wish the dev's  wouldnt allow the bg  gear in open world pvp bg gear should only be allowed  to be worn in the battlegrounds. I just get a tad hot headed sometimes lol<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /> </em></strong></p>

Ahlana
02-27-2010, 06:09 PM
<p><cite>screwballtheoneandonly wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em>I  feel the same way   mel, just wish the dev's  wouldnt allow the bg  gear in open world pvp bg gear should only be allowed  to be worn in the battlegrounds. I just get a tad hot headed sometimes lol<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /> </em></strong></p></blockquote><p>This would work except that they are the same exact gear.. Who wants to do the work twice for the same item? No one. If they had made different sets you would have a point, but they didn't. So doing BGs fill in the gaps for me when I can not find open world PVP.</p>

screwballtheoneandonly
02-27-2010, 06:18 PM
<p><strong><em>lets  see here ...tbh when I or a small group of my guildmates can not find pvp we roll into Q and ask for it we tend to get it then lol ..sometimes more than I care to ask for lol but really, I dont think they really thought this system out  and it has everyone up in arms.I understand  that alot of work goes into  the makeing of a xpac/new content  just saying </em></strong></p>

Vulkan_NTooki
02-27-2010, 07:06 PM
<p>Easy fix allready mentioned above.. Do not allow pvp servers into BG..</p>

asaron
02-27-2010, 09:46 PM
<p>no that is not a easy fix that would be takeing content away from a server  we are not asking for anything to be removed from pve servers please dont ask something be removed from ours  a simple bg only tag would be fine after all no pvp on pve servers outside of bg's so not like the good effects of the gear would do ya anygood outside the bg</p>

asaron
02-28-2010, 10:11 PM
<p>We need more constructive feedback gusy this thread ahs been pushed downt eh line by everyone crying about pvp players being in the bg's</p>

aspit
02-28-2010, 10:34 PM
<p>It is a simple matter of rewards. If open world pvp was more rewarding</p><p>or</p><p>Battlegrounds was less rewarding (I propose this at 2 tokens for a win, not 3)</p><p>then you would see more open world pvp on your server.</p><p>Really dislike the 3:1 system. At the very worst you should get 2 for a quick win and 0 for a quick loss so people wont lay down mid fight.</p><p>Also, mentioned this before.. but premade groups of 4 or more should only get 2 tokens for a win. Otherwise there is no incentive to try to balance the matches by playing both sides...</p><p>Unless they add a function where 1 player on the winning team flips to the losing team. That player will be able to earn a title. We often joke about people on Vox calling themselves the difference maker, but I bet some people would love that type of title and work for it. Of course that player will get 2 tokens regardless of who wins, but they are really working for that title.</p>

Megavolt
02-28-2010, 10:40 PM
Then why not just increase the cost of the BG gear on the PvP servers. That way those already geared from the PvP servers that have the advantage over those not geared for PvP from PvE servers don't get as much of a reward. Simply increasing the cost of the items from the BG merchants on the PvP servers should create a balancing act.

aspit
02-28-2010, 10:58 PM
<p>That is also a good suggestion. Force pvp servers to pay slightly more for bg gear.</p><p>And find a way to reward people for putting max effort into the games. When you see wizards doing 10k damage in an entire match when other mages are doing 300k in the same match... WHY would the aforementioned toon get any rewards? It was obviously a complete lack of effort.</p>

asaron
03-02-2010, 03:54 AM
<p>see the problem with increaseing item cost  or lowering reward amount for us  is this  bg's are fairly fast easy to run  this is getting people gear at an alarming rate far faster than any of the massive battles  in tg or kp in general have ever been you could  double the gear cost and only reward us with 1 token per match  and it is still  gonna cripple pvp "real pvp"  for everyone will be grinding the bg's the gear needs to be bg only devs stated a long time ago it would not interfere with pvp nor pve</p>

BMouse
03-02-2010, 04:28 AM
<p><cite>Brimestar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Why you trolling around? You can't use the pvp procs in Smurf land anyhow....</blockquote><p>Smurfs PvP? gawd what kinda gear would they wear? The mind Boggles! I want Smurfets gear for my Shim Illusionist <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> I reckon she'd look hot in that!</p><p>LoL Strue Story<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p>

Muraazi
03-02-2010, 05:52 AM
<p>Put the armor on the BG merchants put the jewelry on the PvP merchants (pvp server only)...</p><p>Players will have no purpose if gear from BGs are only useable in BGs. Let's stop this limiting use of gear crap imo.</p><p>In the end, I think it's alittle too early to say anything. BGs only been out like not even a week yet. People are having fun in them, shame on them.....</p>

asaron
03-02-2010, 12:49 PM
<p>i get a chuckle from those that have a full set of the 90 gear in 3 days already far faster than the zerg or  any overland pvp have ever been</p>

Hukklebuk
03-02-2010, 01:06 PM
<p>#1 - yes that would probably help </p><p>#2 - no that wouldn't help, it would just keep the PvP people that the PvP servers are complaining about being in BG, in BG longer.</p><p><cite>aspit wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is a simple matter of rewards. If open world pvp was more rewarding</p><p>or</p><p>Battlegrounds was less rewarding (I propose this at 2 tokens for a win, not 3)</p><p>then you would see more open world pvp on your server.</p></blockquote>

Skywarrior
03-02-2010, 01:46 PM
<p>Whoever comes up with the solution to this (and I agree it is a problem if the symptoms are as described) needs to consider a few things that I believe have been overlooked so far in this thread.</p><p>First, I think the BG gear is identical to open world PvP gear for one reason only - balance between PvE and PvP servers.  In order to have any kind of long term balance in the BGs, equal gear must be achievable on all participating servers and open world PvP gear is not available on PvE servers.</p><p>If the BG gear is somehow inferior to open world PvP gear, as suggested in this thread earlier, then the only way to achieve balance in the BGs would be to exclude the use of open world gear from the BGs.  I suspect this would not sit well with the PvP players in general.</p><p>Frankly, to be completely fair across the board, BG gear should probably be restricted to BG only and the only PvP gear allowed in from open world would be the various PvP MC sets available on all servers.  But many people have raised objections to this as well, leaving the devs with not much maneuvering room on this.  No matter which way they turn, someone has made strenuous objection to the proposed concepts.</p>

Vlahkmaak
03-02-2010, 02:58 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>asaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and what exactly do you think bg's are if you dont go in with a pre set group a zerg plain and simple those defending the bg's gear just want easy tokens no different than those that hugged tg and dregs.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE THIS IS KILLING WHATS LEFT OF OPEN WORLD PVP.   dont get me wrong bg's are cool and they have there place  but they should not have equal rewards that are useable in open world</p></blockquote><p>bgs are a team based objective with even # players on both sides.</p><p>** = players does not mean = skill.  The few BG I went into on solo que people just ran died and revived and did it again till it was over - no one on the solo que would work together they were like lemmings running at the cliff to see who could drop faster on both sides.  Was a complete fail experience nowhere near as fun as open worl pvp.  I'd rahter continue to get stomped by grps of scrubs I used to kill prior to this resist change than play BG. </p><p>open pvp is a giant zerg of scrubs who specifically go into one zone so they can aquire tokens on people that happen to be the zergs current target.</p><p>** Granted some of this is true but you could find = stacked groups and get some good fights out of the zerg.  The mass fights were fun.  Using your arguement BG are giant zergs where people que up into a zone to zerg for tokens - see same arguement applies to BG. </p><p>One requires tactics and teamwork while the other requires neither.</p><p> **Actually the zerg required far superior tactics and team work to stand up against an x2 or more.  with a properly stacked grp fights were quite fun and could last a long time.  BG = zone in die repeatedly becuase the bluebie tempalr is auto attacking and not healing the tank while I am taunting and then everyone gets a reward win or loose.  FAIL.</p><p>I could see instance pvp being an issue if there was any sort of loss in pvp, but you cant lose anything by failing so why should it be rewarded better or differently?</p><p>** your rewarded for a fail in BG.  Failing to win a fight in open world pvp does not give you a token.</p></blockquote>

asaron
03-02-2010, 09:11 PM
<p>bless the powers that be for broke bg's being offline for over a day  was pvp everywhere lots of updates  i did atleast 6 writs worth of kills  between them going offline yesterday and when i logged off today jsut a few mins ago  and  several writs on my alts in t9</p>

asaron
03-13-2010, 02:01 PM
<p>ohh there down again ty soe for more open world pvp keep up the good work bg down every other day means more open  REAL PVP  for us naggy folk</p>

Taldier
03-13-2010, 02:19 PM
<p><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>bgs are a team based objective with even # players on both sides.</p><p>open pvp is a giant zerg of scrubs who specifically go into one zone so they can aquire tokens on people that happen to be the zergs current target.</p><p>One requires tactics and teamwork while the other requires neither.</p><p>I could see instance pvp being an issue if there was any sort of loss in pvp, but you cant lose anything by failing so why should it be rewarded better or differently?</p></blockquote><p>Bg is a limited zerg of scrubs who respawn nearly instantly upon death, have no rez sickness, and no immunity timer.</p><p>"Tactics" are not required in bg's</p><p>klak = kill enemy group and keep killing as they zerg you</p><p>ganak = stand next to your flag and kill the people who come close to it</p><p>smugglers = run around in a circle for 15 min and roll over anyone who gets in your way.</p><p>If you consider just doing the same repetitive behavior every identical repetitive match to win to be "tactics" then you misunderstand the definition of the word.</p><p>Open world pvp is a vast open world which players move around in, using available terrain to increase their chances of victory or evade enemy players.</p><p>Sides are not always even and reinforcements are always around the corner unless you keep moving.</p><p>Players can use tactics, such as baiting in an enemy group while their allies use featherfall to drop down on top of them.  Or running from large groups and picking them off as they come in a couple at a time based on their relative runspeed.</p><p>If some group of players has a massive advantage over you at a given time you do not have to engage them on even ground, you can evade them instead of being trapped in a tiny cage match.</p><p>If you have never played on a pvp server and base your opinions on hearsay generally based on a percentage of the playerbase which has in the past repeatedly fought in the same place over and over then you have no basis on which to make any assertion whatsoever about open world pvp.</p>

DngrMou
03-13-2010, 02:26 PM
<p><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>screwballtheoneandonly wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em>I  feel the same way   mel, just wish the dev's  wouldnt allow the bg  gear in open world pvp bg gear should only be allowed  to be worn in the battlegrounds. I just get a tad hot headed sometimes lol<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /> </em></strong></p></blockquote><p>This would work except that they are the same exact gear.. Who wants to do the work twice for the same item? No one. If they had made different sets you would have a point, but they didn't. So doing BGs fill in the gaps for me when I can not find open world PVP.</p></blockquote><p>Quadruple the cost of BG gear on PvP servers, maybe?</p>

Adrez
03-13-2010, 02:44 PM
<p>Bg's are the SoE's smart way to close down Nagafen.Killing the only open world pvp server with BG's is going to make their life a lot easier:1) Hacking/cheating/exploits are harming actual players which is a huge headache. It's so much harder to track and actually punish those people in open world than in BG's.2) Nagafen community has the most petitions/reports/rants/whines send WW. Much less moderation/reply time without it. Also some of the players take their anxiety to the public in server channels or even outside the server on the forums, which can give a negative impression of the game to the people reading the forums.3) Whole pvp concept takes developer(s) time just for 1 server out of the 24 total in the game at the moment. BG's can be   enjoyed from everywhere at any time by anybody. It makes perfect sense to develop content which everyone can take part.Losing a few true "open pvp'ers" is not going to harm them at all, vast majority will just go to a pve server, maybe by xfer too (which I personally hope they will allow soon) where they can enjoy better community and BG pvp action in pure harmony with pve.</p>

Taldier
03-13-2010, 03:17 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bg's are the SoE's smart way to close down Nagafen.Killing the only open world pvp server with BG's is going to make their life a lot easier:1) Hacking/cheating/exploits are harming actual players which is a huge headache. It's so much harder to track and actually punish those people in open world than in BG's.2) Nagafen community has the most petitions/reports/rants/whines send WW. Much less moderation/reply time without it. Also some of the players take their anxiety to the public in server channels or even outside the server on the forums, which can give a negative impression of the game to the people reading the forums.3) Whole pvp concept takes developer(s) time just for 1 server out of the 24 total in the game at the moment. BG's can be   enjoyed from everywhere at any time by anybody. It makes perfect sense to develop content which everyone can take part.Losing a few true "open pvp'ers" is not going to harm them at all, vast majority will just go to a pve server, maybe by xfer too (which I personally hope they will allow soon) where they can enjoy better community and BG pvp action in pure harmony with pve.</p></blockquote><p>While it is undoubtably a good business decision....the concept that this could concievably be considered ethical customer service by anyone is astonishing.</p>

Cabel
03-13-2010, 03:35 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bg's are the SoE's smart way to close down Nagafen.Killing the only open world pvp server with BG's is going to make their life a lot easier:1) Hacking/cheating/exploits are harming actual players which is a huge headache. It's so much harder to track and actually punish those people in open world than in BG's.2) Nagafen community has the most petitions/reports/rants/whines send WW. Much less moderation/reply time without it. Also some of the players take their anxiety to the public in server channels or even outside the server on the forums, which can give a negative impression of the game to the people reading the forums.3) Whole pvp concept takes developer(s) time just for 1 server out of the 24 total in the game at the moment. BG's can be   enjoyed from everywhere at any time by anybody. It makes perfect sense to develop content which everyone can take part.Losing a few true "open pvp'ers" is not going to harm them at all, vast majority will just go to a pve server, maybe by xfer too (which I personally hope they will allow soon) where they can enjoy better community and BG pvp action in pure harmony with pve.</p></blockquote><p>While it is undoubtably a good business decision....the concept that this could concievably be considered ethical customer service by anyone is astonishing.</p></blockquote><p>I think what this game needs is an Overt/Covert operative converter much like SWG.  To me, SWG had the perfect system for PvE/PvP balance.  A guild could declare which new faction to assist, and all servers could be at war, or at peace.  Depending on what each player chooses.</p><p>It's not forcing PvP down anybody's throat, and it's a nice way to go back to enjoying some killing or relaxing.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>That's always been my idea, but that's just me.</p>

Armironhead
03-13-2010, 06:25 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The BGs are fun, and they aren't broken in such a way that only certain classes benefit from pvp like the REAL (broken) PVP server currently is.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Stop hating on the BeeGees: the exploiters drove many more players into playing something that is both fair and FUN for all!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Long live the BeeGees!</span></p></blockquote><p>You are flat out wrong about the bgs not being broken.  In fact the bgs are fundamentally broken not just from a programing perspective but also as to game play itself.   Right now the bgs only give folk the appearance or illusion of engaging in pvp.  However, in actuality every major factor that controls success in the game is beyond the control of the players.  Did the matchmaker screw you; do you have more favored classes then the other team; are you up against a premade?  None of this is within a players control, and yet these factors are so powerful a predictor that you can tell who is going to win a match from the moment the game commences.  In short the bgs are a game of chance.  Sure Las Vegas built a city on games of chance, but I submit soe is not Las Vegas, and a pvp mmo game that cannot be won except through chance will not hold the interest of its players very long.</p>

Armironhead
03-13-2010, 06:50 PM
<p><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>screwballtheoneandonly wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><em>I  feel the same way   mel, just wish the dev's  wouldnt allow the bg  gear in open world pvp bg gear should only be allowed  to be worn in the battlegrounds. I just get a tad hot headed sometimes lol<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /> </em></strong></p></blockquote><p>This would work except that they are the same exact gear.. Who wants to do the work twice for the same item? No one. If they had made different sets you would have a point, but they didn't. So doing BGs fill in the gaps for me when I can not find open world PVP.</p></blockquote><p>how about this -- soe removes bg gear entirely.  Make the reward for engaging in bgs plat.  Soe should then get rid of toughness and go back to crit mit.  That way pve players can get their gear for the bgs by doing what they do best instances, raids etc. . .  For pvp players, soe could make a set of gear that is equivalent to the raid set, that way there would still be an open world path to gear in addition to the raid path.  Further the bgs would not be disincetivised because easy plat is always desireable, especially if soe was to free up the economy by removing the no trade off of so many items (i mean come on do we really need no trade on treasued crap quest drops?)</p><p>alternatively make bg gear drop from contested mobs in the old world zones.  The pvp servers would have fun seeking the gear as it would create oppotunities for pvp, while the bluebees would have fun running contested raids.  As for a bg reward, plat, exp and aa would be neough.</p>

Neskonlith
03-14-2010, 03:35 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are flat out wrong about the bgs not being broken.  In fact the bgs are fundamentally broken not just from a programing perspective but also as to game play itself.  </p><p>Right now the bgs only give folk the appearance or illusion of engaging in pvp.  However, in actuality every major factor that controls success in the game is beyond the control of the players.  Did the matchmaker screw you; do you have more favored classes then the other team; are you up against a premade?  </p><p>None of this is within a players control, and yet these factors are so powerful a predictor that you can tell who is going to win a match from the moment the game commences.  </p><p>In short the bgs are a game of chance.  Sure Las Vegas built a city on games of chance, but I submit soe is not Las Vegas, and a pvp mmo game that cannot be won except through chance will not hold the interest of its players very long.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Compared to broken open-pvp, broken BeeGees are far more fair and fun!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You talk about the matchmaker being "fundamentally broken" as a negative against BeeGees, because it doesn't always set up opposing teams perfectly... yet there are <em>worse</em> mismatches in open-pvp contests where stacked groups gank solo green-cons.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">How can anyone claim that open-pvp is fundamentally <span style="text-decoration: underline;">un</span>broken compared to BeeGees??   What "skill" is needed for 6 90s ganking an 80?   </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">In open-pvp, you can flat out tell who is going to win when a group of 90s jump a solo lowbie quester!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Open pvp has far more mismatched, one-sided ganks and unfair contests than the BeeGees do.  BeeGees actually offer decent opportunities for even-con pvp contests with objectives beyond griefing questing lowbies.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The BeeGees have taken the best parts of open-pvp, and distilled them into a controlled sandbox where <span style="text-decoration: underline;">honest</span> players can enjoy and have fun with pvp.</span></p>

asaron
03-15-2010, 06:55 PM
<p>^ lolz at honest players look at all thsoe who have been banned suspeneded deleted due to exploiting the bugs of the bluebie grinds or betagrounds as another poster has called them</p>

slothmister
03-15-2010, 08:15 PM
<p>The problem with open world PVP is, in my experience, Q's being too scared to solo pvp.</p><p>Just this morning I, a 90 lock destroyer, chased a 90 overseerer from Fortitude all over SH until he finally found a couple of extra Q's to help kill me.</p><p>STOP THE RUNNING in fair fights if you want to pvp.</p>

Balrok
03-15-2010, 10:12 PM
<p><cite>asaron wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I stood afk on kerra isle  for about an hour not one soul came at me  this was the former major pvp hub prior to bluebie bg being live  you could barely get near the island withotu a group now you can just sit there and might find a kill   and i stress MIGHT  heavily! </p></blockquote><p>This is more because it was a new expansion and people were questing or knew where the questers were to kill.  Same thing happened with all the other expansions.  What is a more likely answer is that the core group eventually leveled threw here and what is left are alts or people that never did the quests in the first place.</p><p>Yes BG is taking away from open world PvP, but true be told... BG fixed/moved the zerg.  PvP is out there, you just have to find it... Vox/Venekor style.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

Taldier
03-15-2010, 10:16 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Compared to broken open-pvp, broken BeeGees are far more fair and fun!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You talk about the matchmaker being "fundamentally broken" as a negative against BeeGees, because it doesn't always set up opposing teams perfectly... yet there are <em>worse</em> mismatches in open-pvp contests where stacked groups gank solo green-cons.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">How can anyone claim that open-pvp is fundamentally <span style="text-decoration: underline;">un</span>broken compared to BeeGees??   What "skill" is needed for 6 90s ganking an 80?   </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">In open-pvp, you can flat out tell who is going to win when a group of 90s jump a solo lowbie quester!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Open pvp has far more mismatched, one-sided ganks and unfair contests than the BeeGees do.  BeeGees actually offer decent opportunities for even-con pvp contests with objectives beyond griefing questing lowbies.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The BeeGees have taken the best parts of open-pvp, and distilled them into a controlled sandbox where <span style="text-decoration: underline;">honest</span> players can enjoy and have fun with pvp.</span></p></blockquote><p>In open pvp you arent locked in a small cage with those 6 lvl 90 players.  Open pvp is about options.  Evading superior enemy forces and finding defensible terrain or reinforcements to back you up.</p><p>Bg's are about simplifying pvp down to a cage match where two poorly matched up teams get dropped into a meatgrinder to see who got more warlocks assigned to their team.</p>

Armironhead
03-16-2010, 10:47 AM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You are flat out wrong about the bgs not being broken.  In fact the bgs are fundamentally broken not just from a programing perspective but also as to game play itself.  </p><p>Right now the bgs only give folk the appearance or illusion of engaging in pvp.  However, in actuality every major factor that controls success in the game is beyond the control of the players.  Did the matchmaker screw you; do you have more favored classes then the other team; are you up against a premade?  </p><p>None of this is within a players control, and yet these factors are so powerful a predictor that you can tell who is going to win a match from the moment the game commences.  </p><p>In short the bgs are a game of chance.  Sure Las Vegas built a city on games of chance, but I submit soe is not Las Vegas, and a pvp mmo game that cannot be won except through chance will not hold the interest of its players very long.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Compared to broken open-pvp, broken BeeGees are far more fair and fun!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">You talk about the matchmaker being "fundamentally broken" as a negative against BeeGees, because it doesn't always set up opposing teams perfectly... yet there are <em>worse</em> mismatches in open-pvp contests where stacked groups gank solo green-cons.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">How can anyone claim that open-pvp is fundamentally <span style="text-decoration: underline;">un</span>broken compared to BeeGees??   What "skill" is needed for 6 90s ganking an 80?   </span><span style="color: #ff0000;">In open-pvp, you can flat out tell who is going to win when a group of 90s jump a solo lowbie quester!</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Open pvp has far more mismatched, one-sided ganks and unfair contests than the BeeGees do.  BeeGees actually offer decent opportunities for even-con pvp contests with objectives beyond griefing questing lowbies.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The BeeGees have taken the best parts of open-pvp, and distilled them into a controlled sandbox where <span style="text-decoration: underline;">honest</span> players can enjoy and have fun with pvp.</span></p></blockquote><p>Again your premise is mistaken.  The primary difference between a battle ground and open world is that in battle grounds combat is consentual, where as in open world, you frequently do not have a choice as to who you fight.  While this may seem to make the bgs "fairer" the fairness is actually illusory, at least in the system implemented by soe.  Sure in open world a stacked grp may surprise a solo player and kill them, but you know what? the solo player has options.  He can die, he can run, he can vector in his friends, he can use terrain to try and pick off members of the grp, etc. . .  Even if he does die, the other options remain.  These options potentially give him the capability of fighting back against the stronger opponent.  The odds maybe against him but he has choices, and a chance of success.  And if all else fails, he can always go away, orgainze is own larger grp or raid and comeback and stomp the offending players who had the audacity of killing him in the first place.</p><p>Now what options does a weaker opponent have in the bgs?  None.  A weaker opponent can do nothing but die in the bgs over and over again until time runs out.  What makes an opponent weaker in the bgs?  Three things: differences in classes, differences in group composition, premade.   A bg battle is determined almost entirely by whether your group has more op classes then the other group.  Thus, since you have no control over who you are going to fight, the bgs are entirely a game of chance: rock, paper, scissor on a grp/raid scale. </p><p>Your use of the term controlled sandbox is misleading.  A sandbox implies that players have options, the bgs give you none.  Soe has managed to make a situation where toons are carbon copies of each other within their classes with essentially identical gear, identical spells, identical aa specs, etc. . .  Soe has been moving to smplify the game pushing to a state where there is only one optimal path for each class.  Under these circumstances, class differences get amplified.  In the bgs there is nothing to molify the class differences.  Thus, players in the bgs lack either the choice or capability of overcoming class differences.  Confronted with a class that is more op then your class in the bgs, you can not outthink them, there is no outplaying them, your only choice is to die to them, then revive and die again.</p><p>Now I do not dispute that some people feel they are engaging in pvp because they are able to roll pug groups that either lack coordination, or are afflicted by players who are indifferent to the success of the grp.  But lets face it, killing uncoordiated pugs is hardly sporting.  Just as some folk think that its fun to shoot the farmers domesticated fowl that he releases into his enclosed yard is sport, the true sportsmen knows that a canned hunt is far from fair or sporting.  Soe has given us canned pvp.  Rolling uncoordinated pugs is not fair, nor is it the mark of a skilled pvper. </p><p>What <em>could</em> be done to improve the bgs and promote fairness?  The first thing that needs to be done is the elimination of the matchmaker, with control as to who fight whom being placed in the hands of the players.  There should be a hub where a player opens a match and can announce paramaters for the match, such as newbee, vet, premade etc. . .  While such systems are not perfect, any player/group joining the match will know before the match starts what they are getting into, especially if the system is combined with a rating system whereby folk can distinguish vets from nubs.  The second thing that should be done is the removal of bg gear as a prize to be won from the bgs.  Having the bg gear as a prize places an insurmontable barrier between the new player and the vet.  The bg gear should drop from mobs in the regular server worlds and be tradeable.  That way anybody with plat could gear themselves out and be competitive in the bgs.  As a prize the bgs should simply give plat, aa and exp.  Plat is always desireable, and will be more desireable if it can be used to purchase bg gear.  The third thing that must be done is the bg zones need to be remade, with elements of stratigic randomness add so that a weaker opponent can work out a strategy that will allow them to succeed.</p>

Neskonlith
03-16-2010, 01:57 PM
<p><cite><a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The primary difference between a battle ground and open world is that in battle grounds combat is consentual, where as in open world, you frequently do not have a choice as to who you fight.</p><p>... the solo player has options.  He can die ... And if all else fails, he can always go away</p><p>Now what options does a weaker opponent have in the bgs?  None.  A weaker opponent can do nothing but die...</p><p>But lets face it, killing uncoordiated pugs is hardly sporting.   Rolling uncoordinated pugs is not fair, nor is it the mark of a skilled pvper. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Open world (on Naggy) is the hardcore, gritty version of PVP where ganking is a favoured practise.  Rolling uncoordinated PUGs or solos is the norm for the "Pearl Harbor" gank squads roving around to farm easymode updates from unprepared victims.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP between groups on Naggy seems to happen more often by accident as "avenging pursuers" looking for a challenge do not often seem catch up to the quickly roving bands of zone-hopping gankers farming speed-updates from the questing lowbies.  It's all about speed and efficiency, and lowbie updates give the best return for Token collection.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP events to provide quality even-con PVP on Naggy had to be pre-arranged at controlled locations... which means players forcibly <em>created their own BeeGees within open-pvp</em>.</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The general attitude on Naggy appears to be that "fair" and "sporting" has nothing to do with the pvp war, as the lowbie "children" are the first to be picked off more often than not, and I cannot speak for what it is like over on Vox.</span></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What <em>could</em> be done to improve the bgs and promote fairness? </p><p>There should be a hub where a player opens a match and can announce paramaters for the match, such as newbee, vet, premade etc. . .  While such systems are not perfect, any player/group joining the match will know before the match starts what they are getting into, especially if the system is combined <span style="text-decoration: underline;">with a rating system whereby folk can distinguish vets from nubs</span>. </p><p>The bg gear should drop from mobs in the regular server worlds and be tradeable.  That way anybody with plat could gear themselves out and be competitive in the bgs.  As a prize the bgs should simply give plat, aa and exp.  Plat is always desireable, and will be more desireable if it can be used to purchase bg gear. </p><p>The third thing that must be done is the bg zones need to be remade, with elements of stratigic randomness add so that a weaker opponent can work out a strategy that will allow them to succeed. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Interesting ideas to improve BeeGees!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">As it is, the BeeGees are afflicted with the same miserable broken resists that ruin open-pvp, so PUGs currently suffer horribly if the matchmaker isn't kind.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If resists worked as intended, I suspect many of those one-sided contests would not be nearly as stark as they were... bugged out casters essentially one-shotting Crusaders does not bode well for any sort of contest where players expect to have a fair chance to compete.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Additionally, you are drawing a baseline on player performance from the unfamiliar reactions of new PVE players trying PVP for the first time; their uncomfortable grasp of pvp AA, gear and tactics hinders their performance while they go through a learning curve, but after enough time, practise and research they will be up to speed.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It will be interesting to see where the BeeGees go forward as SOE stomps the resists bugs, add new maps... and weeds out many of the anti-BeeGee saboteurs deliberately trying to ruin the BeeGees for everyone from within.</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></p>

Armironhead
03-16-2010, 05:24 PM
<p><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite><a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The primary difference between a battle ground and open world is that in battle grounds combat is consentual, where as in open world, you frequently do not have a choice as to who you fight.</p><p>... the solo player has options.  He can die ... And if all else fails, he can always go away</p><p>Now what options does a weaker opponent have in the bgs?  None.  A weaker opponent can do nothing but die...</p><p>But lets face it, killing uncoordiated pugs is hardly sporting.   Rolling uncoordinated pugs is not fair, nor is it the mark of a skilled pvper. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Open world (on Naggy) is the hardcore, gritty version of PVP where ganking is a favoured practise.  Rolling uncoordinated PUGs or solos is the norm for the "Pearl Harbor" gank squads roving around to farm easymode updates from unprepared victims.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP between groups on Naggy seems to happen more often by accident as "avenging pursuers" looking for a challenge do not often seem catch up to the quickly roving bands of zone-hopping gankers farming speed-updates from the questing lowbies.  It's all about speed and efficiency, and lowbie updates give the best return for Token collection.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">PVP events to provide quality even-con PVP on Naggy had to be pre-arranged at controlled locations... which means players forcibly <em>created their own BeeGees within open-pvp</em>.</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The general attitude on Naggy appears to be that "fair" and "sporting" has nothing to do with the pvp war, as the lowbie "children" are the first to be picked off more often than not, and I cannot speak for what it is like over on Vox.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">You are comparing apples to oranges.  Naggy may seem unfair to you because you dont like to be ganked.  So what? Thats the essence of an open world system.  But what you fail to preceive is that you have tactical options which allow you to change a situation to your favor.  The bgs in contrast lack any such options.  As long as both teams are are familar with the basic pvp skills, the team with the better classes will win every time.  The lack of options makes the bgs unfair.  (Or I suppose you could say that the bgs are <em>perfectly </em>fair because the team that should win <em>always</em> wins).</span></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What <em>could</em> be done to improve the bgs and promote fairness? </p><p>There should be a hub where a player opens a match and can announce paramaters for the match, such as newbee, vet, premade etc. . .  While such systems are not perfect, any player/group joining the match will know before the match starts what they are getting into, especially if the system is combined <span style="text-decoration: underline;">with a rating system whereby folk can distinguish vets from nubs</span>. </p><p>The bg gear should drop from mobs in the regular server worlds and be tradeable.  That way anybody with plat could gear themselves out and be competitive in the bgs.  As a prize the bgs should simply give plat, aa and exp.  Plat is always desireable, and will be more desireable if it can be used to purchase bg gear. </p><p>The third thing that must be done is the bg zones need to be remade, with elements of stratigic randomness add so that a weaker opponent can work out a strategy that will allow them to succeed. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Interesting ideas to improve BeeGees!</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">As it is, the BeeGees are afflicted with the same miserable broken resists that ruin open-pvp, so PUGs currently suffer horribly if the matchmaker isn't kind.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If resists worked as intended, I suspect many of those one-sided contests would not be nearly as stark as they were... bugged out casters essentially one-shotting Crusaders does not bode well for any sort of contest where players expect to have a fair chance to compete.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Additionally, you are drawing a baseline on player performance from the unfamiliar reactions of new PVE players trying PVP for the first time; their uncomfortable grasp of pvp AA, gear and tactics hinders their performance while they go through a learning curve, but after enough time, practise and research they will be up to speed.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">It will be interesting to see where the BeeGees go forward as SOE stomps the resists bugs, add new maps... and weeds out many of the anti-BeeGee saboteurs deliberately trying to ruin the BeeGees for everyone from within.</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" /></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">No I am not making my comparison based upon pvp players v pve players.  As I noted before anybody can kill nubs.  My observations are derived from fights where each side has had its fair share of pvp players.  Class is the predominate factor.  imagine if you will a typical open world event -- an optimal stacked group comes across a grp of skilled players who are in a sub-optimal group - what would happen in the open world?  the sub-optimal group could 1) string the opposing side out and kill the optimal group as individuals 2) call in more support 3) use terrian to stalk the optimal group and try to pick off straglers, etc. . .  Now compare that to the bgs, what could they do? Nothing execpt die, especially if the zone is klack.</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">As for resists -- despite what rothgar has said, soe has never gotten resists right.  Its naive to think that all of a sudden they will pull the rabbit out of the hat and everything will be magical.  Resists right now are more broken then ever before.  Soe's best bet would be to unwind the changes to resists before they become too invested in them.  The same goes for toughness.  I wont repeat what I have written before in other posts, but toughness is the single most broken dynamic they have introduced to date, which hurts both pvp and pve.  However, soe doesnt really appear to learn from its mistakes.  I dont expect them to fix the bgs from a gameplay persepctive.  Rather, some dev will simply post a message telling us that its our fault for not appreciating the brilliance of their changes.</span></p></blockquote><p>my comments in blue.</p>