AFK - and Not Trying - is whats gonna kill Battlegrounds. [Archive]

Kunaak

02-26-2010, 10:18 AM

<img src="http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4499/afkn.jpg" width="678" height="530" />Battlegrounds is fun - but some people dont want to play it - some just want the tokens and go AFK after 1-2 deaths.they just want easy fabled gear.this screen shot was taken 2 minutes after a match began, and I died, and I saw all over the chat "AFK till I get my token".I've also come into matchs where people werent even playing even 1% of the time. they zone in, wait till we die, or win, and zone out. - this action can easily be macro'd to run all day with a simple script and thats what I suspect some people are doing.if something isnt done about this exact kind of thing, I can tell you battlegrounds will fail, not cause of the game itself, but cause players push people out of wanting to try - after all, why go, if half the raids just AFK waiting for tokens, they still get, whether they did anything or not??I'd suggest some hard penalty to inactivity - such as 1 minute no movement' instantly drop from the match. AFK tag used - forfiet tokens. if more then 3 players come and flag a player as AFK, they get no tokens - get flagged often enough - get banned from battlegrounds.that would be simple. we all already call out people for being AFK - why not let us right click on them, and flag them for being AFK?somethings got to be done, and it cant be a wimpy solution, otherwise you can bet - battlegrounds will fail simply cause some people ruin the game for everyone.

Armironhead

02-26-2010, 10:29 AM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4499/afkn.jpg" width="678" height="530" />Battlegrounds is fun - but some people dont want to play it - some just want the tokens and go AFK after 1-2 deaths.they just want easy fabled gear.this screen shot was taken 2 minutes after a match began, and I died, and I saw all over the chat "AFK till I get my token".I've also come into matchs where people werent even playing even 1% of the time. they zone in, wait till we die, or win, and zone out. - this action can easily be macro'd to run all day with a simple script and thats what I suspect some people are doing.if something isnt done about this exact kind of thing, I can tell you battlegrounds will fail, not cause of the game itself, but cause players push people out of wanting to try - after all, why go, if half the raids just AFK waiting for tokens, they still get, whether they did anything or not??I'd suggest some hard penalty to inactivity - such as 1 minute no movement' instantly drop from the match. AFK tag used - forfiet tokens. if more then 3 players come and flag a player as AFK, they get no tokens - get flagged often enough - get banned from battlegrounds.that would be simple. we all already call out people for being AFK - why not let us right click on them, and flag them for being AFK?somethings got to be done, and it cant be a wimpy solution, otherwise you can bet - battlegrounds will fail simply cause some people ruin the game for everyone.</blockquote>combine two bad ideas (a broken matchmaker and tokens for losing) and this is what you get.

yadlajoi

02-26-2010, 10:48 AM

AFKer are bad. getting a token when losing isnt. i have been on the losing side against full pvp group with toughness gear from the get go or some fully avatared gear opponent you life melt like snowball in hell. if you dont get reward for attempting and you know you are facing these almost everytime then people wont bother. AFKer needs to be kicked of the raid/group after a certain time of inactivity

Gungo

02-26-2010, 10:57 AM

A simple voting a person off your team w a majority of yoru group votes would fix alot of afk. No reason people should be forced to play with an A-hole anyway.

Edavi

02-26-2010, 02:38 PM

Well I mean, it is obvious whats happening, your team is gettings massacred, ur with a buncha ppl from otehr servers that u dont know. Its more fun to go make a sandwich than get killed over and over like you owe these people something.There is no reason to be rewarded for losing, the ONLY reason is that SOE REALLY REALLY REALLY likes to make PVP gear SUPER SUPER SUPER easy to get., as if it is their favorite thing ever.BTW PVP gear= same rewards for open PVP and BGs. Sigh I just dont understand.. Why dont they get it!?

Kunaak

02-26-2010, 08:12 PM

in the match posted - the score was 150 to 200. it was barely even begun, yet was a massacre after half the raid went AFK and decieded to do nothing.and yes - people are doing nothing - heres a example - how many tokens does this person have by now, and by the end of 1 round in smuglers should this person atleast had some point? how long is the match - ten minutes? and zero's across the board?fact is - people are zoning in, doing nothing, and waiting for tokens they get for doing nothing.<img src="http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2827/noteventrying.jpg" width="645" height="69" />

Neskonlith

02-26-2010, 08:37 PM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>in the match posted - the score was 150 to 200. it was barely even begun, yet was a massacre after half the raid went AFK and decieded to do nothing.and yes - people are doing nothing - heres a example - how many tokens does this person have by now, and by the end of 1 round in smuglers should this person atleast had some point? how long is the match - ten minutes? and zero's across the board?fact is - people are zoning in, doing nothing, and waiting for tokens they get for doing nothing.<img src="http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2827/noteventrying.jpg" width="645" height="69" /></blockquote>PERMA-BANS FTW!After a few rounds of "zeros", AFK players should be flagged by SOE and prevented from using BGs until they return to keyboard and try to explain to a GM why they were exploiting the system.Cheating exploiters suck in BeeGees, same as they suck in open-world PVP.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Kurindor_Mythecnea

02-26-2010, 09:04 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>in the match posted - the score was 150 to 200. it was barely even begun, yet was a massacre after half the raid went AFK and decieded to do nothing.and yes - people are doing nothing - heres a example - how many tokens does this person have by now, and by the end of 1 round in smuglers should this person atleast had some point? how long is the match - ten minutes? and zero's across the board?fact is - people are zoning in, doing nothing, and waiting for tokens they get for doing nothing.<img src="http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2827/noteventrying.jpg" width="645" height="69" /></blockquote>PERMA-BANS FTW!After a few rounds of "zeros", AFK players should be flagged by SOE and prevented from using BGs until they return to keyboard and try to explain to a GM why they were exploiting the system.Cheating exploiters suck in BeeGees, same as they suck in open-world PVP.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Good idea...

Shredderr

02-26-2010, 10:30 PM

Yep the new exploit zone in and go do the dishes while you cripple w/e team u match with in the meantime no worries u still get your 1 token reward . No doubt this will get fixed ? Opps I forgot this is SoE

Crismorn

02-26-2010, 11:17 PM

Put in a votekick system requires 75%+ yes votes or something along those lines, I would say do it by taking and/or receiving dmg/healing and kick them but there are just too many ways to sle finlict dmg and whatnot that a votekick would be better.

Sphiriah

02-26-2010, 11:24 PM

I'm not AFK'ing, I'm defending the stream.But to be realistic, I can't believe there isn't anything in place to punish AFK'ers. You took Battlegrounds from WoW but you didn't do any research, did you? The number one problem in WoW BGs for YEARS was people who joined and AFK'd just to get their marks at the end of a match. Blizzard came up with a system for fixing that, and everything works much better now. If you want to copy their content, at least do it right.

Sarriss

02-27-2010, 02:19 AM

This makes me sad <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I was gonna try BG, but now I'm not so sure.I'm not an all out PvP person (least not in a fantasy RPG setting, gimmie a gun in an FPS, er it's an all together diffrent matter), after my experiance long ago with UO, I doubt I ever will be. but stuff like this I MIGHT like... if this kind of problem gets fixed.

Sydares

02-27-2010, 02:40 AM

Here's the real problem - There's no "token" incentive for killing your opponents. If they added a repeatable token quest that was like, "Get 100 kills" = 1 Token, people would be less inclined to AFK.

Brigh

02-27-2010, 03:04 AM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><img src="http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4499/afkn.jpg" width="678" height="530" /></blockquote>I can't believe someone stole my name.

lollipop

02-27-2010, 03:38 AM

omg that jimbol guy I saw him afk in like 9 raid ones. Kept killing em in one everytime I would pass.

Foolsfolly

02-27-2010, 03:48 AM

AFK is one thing...but I think that "not trying" is justified in many games, due to the shoddy matchmaking. When an entire team from a top-tier guild shows up against your random group of strangers, with no healers and only a monk tank, and 2 minutes in the scoreboard is 0-200, then you might as well just feed them until the game ends and not even try to slow them down.

Armironhead

02-27-2010, 11:13 AM

As things currently stand - you cant blame people for giving up and going afk - the matchmaker is very broken. The easiest fix for people that intentionally go afk from the beginning - get rid of the carebear token. There should be no reward for losing and there should be a concede option.

Jasuo

02-27-2010, 11:13 AM

Why is the losing team awarded tokens? Isn't that the point of a reward? Make them worth actual effort.

PeaSy1

02-27-2010, 11:21 AM

The problem is with the lvl 90 bg it seems. In the other bracket i think ive maybe seen one person afk. and a big part of that comes from the FACT that the 80-89 bg is rarely a stacked group/raid destroying pickup ones. Its 95% of the time pug vs pug and its alot of fun. After participating in a couple lvl 90 ones i dont even wanna lvl my other toons to 90 and just stay in the better tier of bg.

Kawaia

02-27-2010, 11:25 AM

I tried to, until I died once, and got stuck zoning, and heard people complain but could not move, use spells, not even log out - see my other post - suffice to say i got stripped of gear, bags and bank contents when zoned back by a GM after the bug.Do you know they are not bugged and afking? I was "afk" for others while struggling to do anything or move back to original server, and I heard others had this problem too.

Ace235228

02-27-2010, 01:45 PM

The AFK bit is simply unacceptable. However, I can feel for those that just don't really want to even try. It's neigh impossible to do well in gears if you don't get a healer in your group or you go up against those with pvp gear already. The 80 MC crap you can get on the PvE servers is more of a hinderance than a benefit because it lowers the DPS so substantially for a slight bit of survivability.

swedago

02-27-2010, 02:16 PM

I have no diea why people stoop to this level to collect just 1 token instead of trying to win for 3. Even if you do lose think about the other people trying.Losing is no excuseI think there should be a afk timer as well with a lock-out penalty of 1 hour for thoswe leeching like that.

Gaige

02-27-2010, 02:59 PM

<cite>Kunaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>fact is - people are zoning in, doing nothing, and waiting for tokens they get for doing nothing.</blockquote>That is what happens when SOE puts in gear PvE players want for PvPing. If there is anything on that merchant I decide I must have, I'd do the same. Why play BGs when you can que up, read the forums, get your token, que up, etc.I doubt it changes.

Iskandar

02-27-2010, 03:07 PM

In beta I referred to this as "the new grey shard run" and urged some system to counter just this sort of behavior be implemented. But most seemed to think I was overreacting or seeing a problem where none existed. It's both sad and amusing to see just how much I underestimated the issue.Want some free gear? Just zone in and hang for a few. Why waste time in instances or raids, stressing over mobs and scripts and such... just stand here for a few minutes and watch some TV. /sigh

Kunaak

02-28-2010, 10:18 AM

I played for about 6-8 hours straight on first day, and honestly, I totally intended to fully geek out and waste my weekend on this (its raining/snowing in alaska - what else is there to do?) - get some fable BG gear, and really set myself up for next weekends BG stuff.that didnt last too long, cause every few times we lost, I notice people with straight zeros across the board, or AFK till the match ends, and getting slaughterd 700 to 40, cause 4 of 6 people decieded that 2 deaths was too much.so saturday, I played maybe an hour - hoping it was alittle better... it was worse. now the amount of people simply zoning in and doing nothing is far too common.today, I havent touched it...battlegrounds most certainly has problems, really really bad matchmaking system (2 SK's 2 troubs, a assassin, and warlock? why no healers? why 2 tanks?)extremely bad matchs when paired against PVP geared PVP servers.but I can sit through lopsided victories, and bad matchs, cause they can be fixed.but if something isnt done at a player level to stop people from exploiting the system, for easy fabled gear... you can bet, BG will die out for alot of us, and quickly.

Siphar

02-28-2010, 10:34 AM

A simple look at successful BG style games inc. FPS games and you quickly see how this is fixed.If there is no activity (movement) or hostile activity for 60 seconds after loading, then you are kicked from the match and someone else zoned in.All teams should have a minimum of 1 healer per grp.Simple....

Mwahaha

02-28-2010, 10:54 AM

<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote>A simple look at successful BG style games inc. FPS games and you quickly see how this is fixed.If there is no activity (movement) or hostile activity for 60 seconds after loading, then you are kicked from the match and someone else zoned in.All teams should have a minimum of 1 healer per grp.Simple....</blockquote>/agree and I was about to post the same message. This worked well in WAR and I'd imagine it would work the same in EQ2.

Armironhead

02-28-2010, 11:30 AM

<cite>Dudo@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem is with the lvl 90 bg it seems. In the other bracket i think ive maybe seen one person afk. and a big part of that comes from the FACT that the 80-89 bg is rarely a stacked group/raid destroying pickup ones. Its 95% of the time pug vs pug and its alot of fun. After participating in a couple lvl 90 ones i dont even wanna lvl my other toons to 90 and just stay in the better tier of bg.</blockquote>You're off your rocker. Almost every fight i've been in in the 80-89 grp has been a blowout. There are two deciding factors 1) premade and 2) did the matchmaker screwup again and not give the other side enough (or any) healers. The matchmaker screwups are simply not funny anymore. Putting all this aside, the bgs are old already. Its the same thing every time. It would be nice if they added something to the zones to change things up a little bit - maybe some aggro mobs or something to add a little strat and randomness to what has become a token grind already.

Gaige

02-28-2010, 01:45 PM

After ppl get the BG gear that is actually useful in PvE I don't see BGs keeping their popularity anyway.

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM

02-28-2010, 03:10 PM

WoW kicks you out of the bg if you afk, you also get a deserter debuff for 15 minutes that doesn't allow you to queue again. They also have a report afk that puts a debuff on someone that reduces their honor point gain from kills. It doesn't prevent people from afking, but it does reduce it dramatically. Probably should implement something similar or bgs will end up with a lot of afkers and pretty pointless matches.

slothmister

02-28-2010, 03:18 PM

This is so very true.Possible solutions (other than the suggested waste of GM time)...1. Increase the tokens gained by winning to 15 and increase the tokens required for an item by 5. This would still require the same number of wins per item (do the math!) but would requite MUCH more BG's for idiotic leechers to get their gear. Yes it would make it harder for those unlucky enough to actually try but fail all the time, but it would drastically increase the want to try.2. Make a random word generator. Upon zone in to the BG we have to all wait 2 mins (to allow for slow zoners) and then enter a random word to get into the BG. Same could be done on exiting.

Tehom

02-28-2010, 03:31 PM

Yeah, I've been disappointed by seeing opponents just go AFK after they die once and give up. A wizard who does 3k damage in battlefield of ganak while even healers did about 50k during the match obviously wasn't trying and really was an active detriment to his team. I think some reasonable proportion of damage inflicted, healing given, and damage received might be a good sanity check to see if someone actually fought (and automatically flag someone as having participated if they ever picked up the enemy flag, even if they never did any damage at all), or similar mechanisms. An extra token to people who top relevant categories even on the losing side might work too.

Hikinami

03-01-2010, 10:58 AM

There really needs to be a concede button or something. I had a match where a member of my team told me he was a two boxed person from the other side and to just be happy with my one token and afk. There's got to be some way to manage both people just giving up and making it such an attractive option sometimes.

Megavolt

03-01-2010, 11:33 AM

I heard another game players of the same team would give a debuff to a teamate that would not allow rewards if that other player did not enter pvp in a given time frame. To me that would be right on, but also including the action of capturing towers, grabbing flag, or carrying the device. I have been in the uneven matches where the whole group would go afk because they had no hope and I personally don't think that should be penalized, but when other people want to fight and you refuse or afk from the get go you SHOULD be penalized. And an even 0 across the board should increase the lockout debuff to half an hour at least.On a side note, being able to rejoin your team after an LD should be an option, instead of instabooted with the debuff applied. It's kinda upsetting to go LD with 30+kills and you team winning in the raid zone in the last minute of the fight and get nada. Making the outside quests repeatable and awarding tokens for them would be a way to award good players and soften the blow of an LD a bit.

Katanalla

03-01-2010, 12:43 PM

If a character does not move for 90 seconds, boot em from the room. That's plenty of time if you need to get a drink / bathroom.But yea, really need to fix the matchmaking system, Klak anon especially.

Thinwizzy

03-01-2010, 12:50 PM

Remove rewards for losing. Consolation prizes only give incentive to not care.

Sambone

03-01-2010, 12:53 PM

I agree that the matchmaking at times really decreases the motivation to put your best effort in, especially when you end up against a well setup opponent. That doesn't mean that people should give up by any means imo however.Certainly there needs to be something put in place to penalize someone going afk during a match. Not too severe only because emergencies happen every now and then, but an afk for bio etc. is not a reason if you ask me. Matches are only 15mins at most. If you can't see that far ahead wether you need to afk don't queue up. Simple.Removing the ONE token for losing is gonna reduce your participants to only those that can come with a full setup pretty much. Not sure that's gonna be a positive thing. Possibly increasing rewards for winning while increasing cost for items might be better.If something can be put in to deal with afking directly then there really doesn't need to be any change in the reward/cost system. AFK FTL!!!

PeaSy1

03-01-2010, 12:54 PM

<cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Remove rewards for losing. Consolation prizes only give incentive to not care. </blockquote>Yes cause only playing bgs in stacked groups is alot of fun!

Thinwizzy

03-01-2010, 01:02 PM

If by stacked you mean not chaotic and terrible, I completely agree.

PeaSy1

03-01-2010, 01:33 PM

And i enjoy bgs and dont want to wait around for a full group of non morons (which is hard enough to find as it is) to be able to play and have somethin to show for it even in a losing effort.

jimmyquinella

03-01-2010, 03:35 PM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>omg that jimbol guy I saw him afk in like 9 raid ones. Kept killing em in one everytime I would pass.</blockquote>LoL I'm famous.I assure you my intentions are not to remove the "excitement" out of the BG system, and I certainly do not want to ruin anyones win loss record....In about 5 more days most of us will have the gear we need and won't step foot in it again, so it won't really matter.Again ,not trying to offend the honor of PVP players and thier goals, just adapting to the gameset that was given to me at the time.Jimbolini

Gargamel

03-01-2010, 05:00 PM

.

Gargamel

03-01-2010, 05:01 PM

<cite>jimmyquinella wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>omg that jimbol guy I saw him afk in like 9 raid ones. Kept killing em in one everytime I would pass.</blockquote>LoL I'm famous.I assure you my intentions are not to remove the "excitement" out of the BG system, and I certainly do not want to ruin anyones win loss record....In about 5 more days most of us will have the gear we need and won't step foot in it again, so it won't really matter.Again ,not trying to offend the honor of PVP players and thier goals, just adapting to the gameset that was given to me at the time.Jimbolini</blockquote>Hmm... first time I've seen someone around here, happy they are famous for being a wiener.

Gaige

03-01-2010, 05:04 PM

He is doing what the system allows him to do in order to farm tokens to gain items that will help him in his chosen playstyle. Not sure how that makes him a "weiner".Maybe SOE shouldn't have put BG gear in the game that makes almost all heroic instance gear useless, all mark gear useless and some raid gear useless.Then PvE players wouldn't be forced to go into the BGs in the first place.

thajo

03-01-2010, 05:05 PM

FPS games already dealt with having stupid/afk players on your team. /callvote kick xxxxf1

Neskonlith

03-01-2010, 05:14 PM

There's always a freeloader at the buffet selfishly taking all the good stuff without caring about anyone else waiting their turn.Grats on exploiting the BeeGee system and being proud of it; you are a waste of space on a team that needs a team player to help.Exploiters suck, whether they are on blue or red servers - no one likes playing a game with a cheater.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" />

Gaige

03-01-2010, 05:17 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's always a freeloader at the buffet selfishly taking all the good stuff without caring about anyone else waiting their turn.Grats on exploiting the BeeGee system and being proud of it; you are a waste of space on a team that needs a team player to help.Exploiters suck, whether they are on blue or red servers - no one likes playing a game with a cheater.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>...AFK players in BGs was reported on test and nothing was changed. RL issues crop up, you're saying SOE should punish players for having a RL?That said, as I stated, no one would AFK in BGs if BG gear was only useable in BGs. The only ppl wanting the gear would be players who want to do BGs, thus no one would AFK.As usual with itemization SOE dropped the ball and made BG gear desirable for PvE, and not only that they made it better than mark gear and heroic instance drops.So now you have players who feel forced to do BGs to get gear so they can PvE. Something that should've never happened.

Ahlana

03-01-2010, 05:22 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's always a freeloader at the buffet selfishly taking all the good stuff without caring about anyone else waiting their turn.Grats on exploiting the BeeGee system and being proud of it; you are a waste of space on a team that needs a team player to help.Exploiters suck, whether they are on blue or red servers - no one likes playing a game with a cheater.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>...AFK players in BGs was reported on test and nothing was changed. RL issues crop up, you're saying SOE should punish players for having a RL?That said, as I stated, no one would AFK in BGs if BG gear was only useable in BGs. The only ppl wanting the gear would be players who want to do BGs, thus no one would AFK.As usual with itemization SOE dropped the ball and made BG gear desirable for PvE, and not only that they made it better than mark gear and heroic instance drops.So now you have players who feel forced to do BGs to get gear so they can PvE. Something that should've never happened.</blockquote>But the gear you get with Marks and other PVE routes are more than enough for any of that type of PVE content. No one "needs" BG gear for PVE. It is just an example that people will always exploit and take the path of least resistance to their goals.. IE afking to get gear.Which makes you wonder since they have to Queue up and click OK to join.. are they even AFK.. are they just standing there staring at the screen, drooling over the keyboard.. more than likely they have adapted some program to do all the work for them.I sure know I wouldn't have the patience to just sit there staring at the screen doing absolutely nothing for hours at a time in order to get 1 token here and there.

Anestacia

03-01-2010, 05:23 PM

And if the gear wasnt usable outside of the BG's then youd have A LOT of people that didnt care about it, thus wouldnt play it, thus would go the way of Arenas and have no support or new content. Be glad the armor is used outside or I, and many others wouldnt bother. I do NOT afk in them, however, and get agrivated at the ones that do. Finding a solution to this is welcomed but not at the cost of a gear change.

Neskonlith

03-01-2010, 05:25 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote> RL issues crop up, you're saying SOE should punish players for having a RL?</blockquote>If a player has "RL issues" that strangely and coincidentally occur in every BeeGee match they go into, such that they immediately AFK on zone in and do nothing every time, I'm thinking they should stop queueing up for matches until they deal with the RL stuff."AFK and not trying" as described in this thread is a selfish exploit that ruins the experience for the rest of your team-mates.Perma-ban FTW, no more exploiters!

Gaige

03-01-2010, 05:31 PM

<cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote>And if the gear wasnt usable outside of the BG's then youd have A LOT of people that didnt care about it, thus wouldnt play it, thus would go the way of Arenas and have no support or new content. Be glad the armor is used outside or I, and many others wouldnt bother.</blockquote>Go figure.Just proves BGs should've never been implemented if the majority are doing them to acquire BG gear for use outside BGs.I wonder how it'll settle in a month when most players have AFK'd their way to all the BG tokens they'll need until new gear is released.

Gro

03-01-2010, 05:38 PM

Knew these same issues would be in here, just like WoW. Hopefully SoE takes a more hardcore approach to fixing the system rather than "vote kick." Suspension, followed by a ban should be what happens.

Gaige

03-01-2010, 05:40 PM

<cite>Groot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Knew these same issues would be in here, just like WoW. Hopefully SoE takes a more hardcore approach to fixing the system rather than "vote kick." Suspension, followed by a ban should be what happens. </blockquote>Right. They've never done that for PvE exploiters but suddenly they should do it for BG afker's, which is hardly even a big deal in the first place.

Gro

03-01-2010, 05:58 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Groot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Knew these same issues would be in here, just like WoW. Hopefully SoE takes a more hardcore approach to fixing the system rather than "vote kick." Suspension, followed by a ban should be what happens. </blockquote>Right. They've never done that for PvE exploiters but suddenly they should do it for BG afker's, which is hardly even a big deal in the first place.</blockquote>Nowhere in my post did I say they shouldn't do it for PvE'rs. You sound a tad defensive are you an afker? Anyone gaining an unfair advantage should be warned, then banned if they continue to abuse it.Battlegrounds were a bad idea from the get-go and further connected EQ2 to WoW in terms of gameplay and addons.

Ahlana

03-01-2010, 06:10 PM

<cite>Groot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Groot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Knew these same issues would be in here, just like WoW. Hopefully SoE takes a more hardcore approach to fixing the system rather than "vote kick." Suspension, followed by a ban should be what happens. </blockquote>Right. They've never done that for PvE exploiters but suddenly they should do it for BG afker's, which is hardly even a big deal in the first place.</blockquote>Nowhere in my post did I say they shouldn't do it for PvE'rs. You sound a tad defensive are you an afker? Anyone gaining an unfair advantage should be warned, then banned if they continue to abuse it.Battlegrounds were a bad idea from the get-go and further connected EQ2 to WoW in terms of gameplay and addons.</blockquote>You'll have to forgive him. Some people are way, way more bitter about BGs than other people are.

Neskonlith

03-01-2010, 06:17 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>You've been bragging to all of your friends about pwning newbs, now its time to back it up! </blockquote>Some Lame Exploiter wrote:<blockquote>lulz I'm in ur BeeGees AFK exploiting ur Tokenz for free lewts! All ur BeeGee trolling are belong to us!</blockquote>Obviously the cheaters don't "have what it takes" in the BeeGees.<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/integrity" target="_blank">I N T E G R I T Y</a> - let's have some!!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" />

Gaige

03-01-2010, 06:29 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Obviously the cheaters don't "have what it takes" in the BeeGees.<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/integrity" target="_blank">I N T E G R I T Y</a> - let's have some!!</blockquote>They have what it takes to get tokens and acquire BG gear, which is all most ppl care about anyway.

Anestacia

03-01-2010, 08:27 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote>And if the gear wasnt usable outside of the BG's then youd have A LOT of people that didnt care about it, thus wouldnt play it, thus would go the way of Arenas and have no support or new content. Be glad the armor is used outside or I, and many others wouldnt bother.</blockquote>Go figure.Just proves BGs should've never been implemented if the majority are doing them to acquire BG gear for use outside BGs.</blockquote>Why is that? Many players are requiring better and better gear to keep up with thier raiding gear to even get HEROIC groups. This gear, imo, serves to equal the playing field a little bit for those that dont have time to raid but still have a chance to get into groups. The lack of Critical Mitigation still makes players RAID for RAID gear while not hindering those that dont have the time or desire to bang thier heads on the same encounters week after week.I am not trying to start a raider vs casual conversation b/c we all know those dont go anywhere. I was in the top guild on my server in EQ1 and I have been in very sucessful raiding guilds prior to TSO's release so spare me the "newb" comebacks. The BGs are fun or I wouldnt do it, but the gear is the goal I am headed toward. The same thing appplies, I hope, for most raiders in that they enjoy to raid but the gear is their motivation. I understand the the point here is about the AFK players, but you seem to be attacking a broader range than just that. TBH, I have run over a hundred BG's and would have done double that without all the glitches this weekend, and in that time I have seen maybe 5 obvious AFK people. I'm not diminishing the fact something should be done about it but nerfing the gear will hurt more people than the few AFKers.

Neskonlith

03-01-2010, 09:18 PM

<img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/BeeGeesabotage.jpg" />People play EQ2 to have fun, and I presume that no one really likes playing with exploiters.Ban cheaters, and nothing of value will be lost from the game - just some few subscriptions of those actively trying to ruin the gameplay experience for others.If banning is too harsh, then start out by invalidating the exploited rewards to restore some honesty into the contests.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Jardo

03-01-2010, 09:24 PM

I agree this will kill the battlegrounds. When I played WOW this was a very big problem until they allowed players to flag others afk, and if they did not engage in a certain amount of time they were kicked from the battleground. However there are alot of other issues that are going to be the death of this battleground system. You have classes one shotten groups, and stuns that are keeping healers from being about to heal the whole time there group is being slaughtered. Causal gear or even shard gear is worthless in battlegrounds when your going against people who have fabled gear. I don't have a solution for this, but I know from experience people will stop trying to win. There has to be some way to even up these classes so everyone is on some what of an equal playing field. I don't mind dying at all its part of the game; however, I do mind getting kicked from across the zone one shotted in the air, and dead before I hit the ground. If your going to drop skill abilities to half, and reduce casting speed then something needs done to allow people to defend themselves.

Jonaroth

03-01-2010, 10:46 PM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>AFK is one thing...but I think that "not trying" is justified in many games, due to the shoddy matchmaking. When an entire team from a top-tier guild shows up against your random group of strangers, with no healers and only a monk tank, and 2 minutes in the scoreboard is 0-200, then you might as well just feed them until the game ends and not even try to slow them down.</blockquote>+1 for truth.. This is very annoying, and happens a lot, prolly 50%-80% of the time when you go in solo to the 6 vs 6 matches.

Megavolt

03-02-2010, 01:32 AM

<cite>Jonaroth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>AFK is one thing...but I think that "not trying" is justified in many games, due to the shoddy matchmaking. When an entire team from a top-tier guild shows up against your random group of strangers, with no healers and only a monk tank, and 2 minutes in the scoreboard is 0-200, then you might as well just feed them until the game ends and not even try to slow them down.</blockquote>+1 for truth.. This is very annoying, and happens a lot, prolly 50%-80% of the time when you go in solo to the 6 vs 6 matches.</blockquote>Hey hey HEY! Don't blame it on the monk! And 200 down in a gears is relatively easy to come back from. Hell I solo tanked with a single healer for 8 straight wins, and one after the healer left for another win . The other team didn't have healers on that one either, it was actually a blast. Reminded me of "Smear the (not allowed)" football we used to play in middle school.Honestly it should que to match the classes of a premade if yer pugging. At least it would make the difference in the win ability, gear, and teamwork vs random class makeup.It just ticks me off that so many monks bring a bad name to the class. Especially in beegees where it's almost easy mode for a good monk.

Gro

03-02-2010, 10:57 AM

You'd think since they took this horrible idea from WoW they'd at least implement the systems that sort of make bg's tolerable, that WoW added in at a later date. (afk flagging/matchmaking/etc)

Skylissa

03-02-2010, 11:27 AM

Why would you go do BG's until you get the gear, then not do BG's after? This would make more sense for people on PvP servers.The gear that I have seen that you can get with the BG tokens.... the procs on the gear only work in PvP combat...so, would be useless for PvE. I've only seen the BG gear that's available on a PvP server, haven't looked at the gear on a PvE server -- so idk if it's different or not.What I read,heard and understood was that they made it where PvP gear would be useful in BG/PvP and useless in PvE (the gear that I've seen that you can get from the BG tokens - with the procs only working in PvP combat..makes it useless for PvE).So if this is the reason that people are AFK'ing in BG's until they get their gear then not doing BG's afterwards... I don't think this is going to work out for them. Unless I'm missing something, which I'm sure someone would correct me if I am. Edited to Add: Some procs on the BG gear only work in pvp combat

Vyava

03-02-2010, 12:03 PM

<cite>Jonaroth wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>AFK is one thing...but I think that "not trying" is justified in many games, due to the shoddy matchmaking. When an entire team from a top-tier guild shows up against your random group of strangers, with no healers and only a monk tank, and 2 minutes in the scoreboard is 0-200, then you might as well just feed them until the game ends and not even try to slow them down.</blockquote>+1 for truth.. This is very annoying, and happens a lot, prolly 50%-80% of the time when you go in solo to the 6 vs 6 matches.</blockquote>It is annoying to those of us trying, but I can sort of understand where the reasoning is coming from.We need separate queues for groups and solo to reduce the giving up attitude. I know that a group can still get steamrolled with against all solo queued players, but the chances of that happening are far less. A pre-made group will often have the massive advantage of coordination and if they have good gear that makes them even more likely to obliterate a team of solo queues. Gear can give an advantage to a team, but I don't really see that as an issue overall as people will gear up eventually. Of course the hitch is that a pre-made group is also more likely to gear up faster and in general be better geared potentially making the rift larger as time goes on.

Sambone

03-02-2010, 12:17 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Groot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Knew these same issues would be in here, just like WoW. Hopefully SoE takes a more hardcore approach to fixing the system rather than "vote kick." Suspension, followed by a ban should be what happens. </blockquote>Right. They've never done that for PvE exploiters but suddenly they should do it for BG afker's, which is hardly even a big deal in the first place.</blockquote>Have seen in another forum this person openly admitting to being an afker claiming it was not an exploit....

corinthe

03-02-2010, 12:28 PM

UPDATE!!!Non afk-er's and popularity killed battlegrounds (temporarily).

Xill

03-02-2010, 12:29 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anestacia wrote:</cite><blockquote>And if the gear wasnt usable outside of the BG's then youd have A LOT of people that didnt care about it, thus wouldnt play it, thus would go the way of Arenas and have no support or new content. Be glad the armor is used outside or I, and many others wouldnt bother.</blockquote>Go figure.Just proves BGs should've never been implemented if the majority are doing them to acquire BG gear for use outside BGs.I wonder how it'll settle in a month when most players have AFK'd their way to all the BG tokens they'll need until new gear is released.</blockquote>Jeez man, I didn't realize you had such a huge stake in the company... I had no idea you own the game? Or do you just own parts of it? Obviously you feel your opinion is more important then say... a pvp'er that has been excited about this for awhile. And how would you know WHAT the majority of people are doing? Do you know the majority of people that play EQ2? Or is it just the majority of people in your circle? And if its just the majority of people in your circle, you cant really say what most people are playing BG's for. So your opinion that BG's should never have been implemented is just that. But to actively hurt the player base and knowingly ruin someone's experience with the game is incredibly selfish (not to mention petty), especially when its to get something you supposedly "need"(which you don't). Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should try to destroy it, especially if it has a chance to help the game you love(hate). Also just because they don't actively punish you does not mean it was not intended so is against the spirit of the game. And whats the point in even playing if you just try so hard to find a way to cheat?Oh and for the record, I think BG's was badly implemented and is directly effecting playability for regular players. So while I disagree with the way you are handling it Gaige I also think alot more work needs to be done to BG's or it will die a slow painful lag inducing death...

Gaige

03-02-2010, 03:39 PM

<cite>Sambone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have seen in another forum this person openly admitting to being an afker claiming it was not an exploit....</blockquote>AFKing is not an exploit.RL > EQ2. There are any number of legit reasons why after I hit yes and start zoning into a BG I'm pulled away from my computer and find myself unable to return until after the match is over.Also, the matchmaker is horribly broken and I don't blame players who are only doing BGs for the gear for going AFK and not trying after they end up with no healer and 2 brawlers and are losing 400 to nothing. Ease the pain, get the token, get on with doing things in the game you actually enjoy.

bryan4171

03-02-2010, 03:45 PM

How about right click and report afk on the worthless [Removed for Content] if 5/6 10/12 or 20/24 have reported it, boot the ingrates butt. Feel free to work with the numbers devs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> Last time the guy afk/not participating was talking the whole time thru the gears fight, so yea Id say its intentional. (Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more.)(Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more.)What you say?(Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more.)(Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more.)

Xill

03-02-2010, 03:46 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sambone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have seen in another forum this person openly admitting to being an afker claiming it was not an exploit....</blockquote>AFKing is not an exploit.RL > EQ2. There are any number of legit reasons why after I hit yes and start zoning into a BG I'm pulled away from my computer and find myself unable to return until after the match is over.Also, the matchmaker is horribly broken and I don't blame players who are only doing BGs for the gear for going AFK and not trying after they end up with no healer and 2 brawlers and are losing 400 to nothing. Ease the pain, get the token, get on with doing things in the game you actually enjoy.</blockquote>Or just don't play... and only do the things you actually enjoy...

Wytie

03-02-2010, 03:58 PM

I agree a perfect solution to this would be to 1st remove the reward for losing.Then next add repeatable quest that gives you 1 token for killing or help killing a specific amount of people in a match.Let the repeatable quest be the consolation prize, so people who try, and lose can still get a token and people who afk and do next to nothing dont get jack squat.

Chanson

03-02-2010, 03:58 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>...after they end up with no healer and 2 brawlers and are losing 400 to nothing. Ease the pain, get the token, get on with doing things in the game you actually enjoy.</blockquote>Hey I think I was in that match with you. Were you also up against a group with two crusaders and two healers?

Dimhammer

03-02-2010, 04:51 PM

Make it so the losing team gets NOTHING. Problem solved.

Wytie

03-02-2010, 05:02 PM

<cite>Dimhammer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make it so the losing team gets NOTHING. Problem solved.</blockquote>NOThat solves 1 problem and creates others.Have you ever been waiting in the que for a few mins then get invited to a BG where the other team was already winning 600-5 but the match still had 10mins left in it?IF not you WILL and it WILL happen alot more if they JUST make it so the losing team gets nothing.What point would there be in finishing the match if you know you are going to lose and get NOTHING for it?People SHOULD be rewarded for trying and FINISHING the match, all your solution does is give people a DAM GOOD REASON to /quit if they know they cant win. So then the next person in the que is forced to join a team who cant win because everyone already quit knowing they were not going to get anything anyway.That doesnt fix anything but WILL make things worse.

Angelann

03-02-2010, 05:05 PM

Making it so the losing team gets nothing is NOT the way to go. I will be very [Removed for Content] if I spend 10 to 20 minutes fighting my butt off, lose by a few points, and get nothing at all for my time. This method will penalize the majority of BG players who are participating. Come up with a solution that ONLY penalizes the minority who are afking.

Crismorn

03-02-2010, 05:08 PM

SoE needs to fix this afk/not trying issue and then go back and delete all tokens gained in this manner or BG's will fail horribly.

PeaSy1

03-02-2010, 05:10 PM

Every year in America they play several games of football through a schedule against other teams, best records get into a playoff eventually ending the super bowl which this year consisted of New Orleans beating the Colts.....and now the best part. In 51 days 4 hours 25 minutes and 17 seconds the St. Louis Rams will be making the choice of the best player in college football to hopefully better their team. But what if they took away the chance for the worse off teams to have their pick of bettering themselves and reversed the draft so that the Saints get the first pick of players and the lowly Rams have to wait for 31 teams to grab up players? You end up with a system where the best get better and the lower end gets shafted. This is the reason losers still get a token so they will still have the opportunity to improve their gear albeit a slower pace. Battlegrounds will die off completely if the token on a loss is removed because the people that only play bgs in stacked groups will be the only players left.

Crismorn

03-02-2010, 05:10 PM

<cite>Angelann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Making it so the losing team gets nothing is NOT the way to go. I will be very [Removed for Content] if I spend 10 to 20 minutes fighting my butt off, lose by a few points, and get nothing at all for my time. This method will penalize the majority of BG players who are participating. Come up with a solution that ONLY penalizes the minority who are afking. </blockquote>Its a penalty for losing, when you lose you get NOTHING this is not a new concept in fact the whole losing and being rewarded is a very new concept that never should have implemented.If you lose a match then you now have motivation to get better at it or continue to lose, the choice is yours

Crismorn

03-02-2010, 05:12 PM

<cite>Dudo@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every year in America they play several games of football through a schedule against other teams, best records get into a playoff eventually ending the super bowl which this year consisted of New Orleans beating the Colts.....and now the best part. In 51 days 4 hours 25 minutes and 17 seconds the St. Louis Rams will be making the choice of the best player in college football to hopefully better their team. But what if they took away the chance for the worse off teams to have their pick of bettering themselves and reversed the draft so that the Saints get the first pick of players and the lowly Rams have to wait for 31 teams to grab up players? You end up with a system where the best get better and the lower end gets shafted. This is the reason losers still get a token so they will still have the opportunity to improve their gear albeit a slower pace. Battlegrounds will die off completely if the token on a loss is removed because the people that only play bgs in stacked groups will be the only players left.</blockquote>Hey RL sport that is endorsed by billions of $, welcome to eq2 a virtual game on a computer.Please keep RL arguements out of worlds where dragons live

Gaige

03-02-2010, 05:14 PM

<cite>Xill wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or just don't play... and only do the things you actually enjoy...</blockquote>Unfortunately SOE made up my mind for me when they made BG gear that is useful in PvE.

Neihn

03-02-2010, 05:15 PM

I agree with Wytie. By making it where the losing team gets nothing you are just going to make others mad to the point they wont want to do it. Me being one of them. I have joined several matches late in that are already far out of control mainly Klak groups. What is the incentive for me to stay and try if i get nothing other then the fact that if i exit i get a abandonment flag that prevents me from queueing up for 5 minutes? I agree no matter what win or lose people should be awarded for trying. There are other ways that have been offered in these forums that would curb the AFKing rather then making the BG less attractive to others.

Wytie

03-02-2010, 05:16 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dudo@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every year in America they play several games of football through a schedule against other teams, best records get into a playoff eventually ending the super bowl which this year consisted of New Orleans beating the Colts.....and now the best part. In 51 days 4 hours 25 minutes and 17 seconds the St. Louis Rams will be making the choice of the best player in college football to hopefully better their team. But what if they took away the chance for the worse off teams to have their pick of bettering themselves and reversed the draft so that the Saints get the first pick of players and the lowly Rams have to wait for 31 teams to grab up players? You end up with a system where the best get better and the lower end gets shafted. This is the reason losers still get a token so they will still have the opportunity to improve their gear albeit a slower pace. Battlegrounds will die off completely if the token on a loss is removed because the people that only play bgs in stacked groups will be the only players left.</blockquote>Hey RL sport that is endorsed by billions of $, welcome to eq2 a virtual game on a computer.Please keep RL arguements out of worlds where dragons live</blockquote>Battelgrounds in Everquest 2 is a sport.Like it or not.

Neskonlith

03-02-2010, 05:16 PM

Yet why should we need to demand the Devs spend a ton of time adding in new complicated coding when GM action will solve the issue?Just as "locks keep honest people honest", swiftly and openly banning exploiters will be sufficient incentive for the majority of the playerbase to remain honest.Cheaters removed from game = no need for extra complicated coding = Devs have more time to spend on stomping game bugs and designing new content.Integrity, SOE: let's get some rules enforcement!<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" />

Gaige

03-02-2010, 05:20 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>swiftly and openly banning exploiters will be sufficient incentive for the majority of the playerbase to remain honest</blockquote>So if a single mother, living at home, ques up for BGs and hits YES and while zoning hears her baby awake from a nap choking and runs to rescue it and ends up AFKing through the BG you feel they should be banned?So if an older sibling ques up for a BG and hits yes, and upon zoning hears the younger sibling that he is watching cause a huge crash in the kitchen and runs to his aid, and then spends time patching him up and getting the kitchen back in order, missing the BG, you feel they should be banned?I'm sorry but there are too many legitimate reasons that someone may have to AFK during their playtime in EQ2. RL > any game, EQ2 or otherwise. If I hit yes and upon zoning into a BG I have something urgent come up in my RL I'm going to attend to it, and if SOE banned that action they'd be closing EQ2 with the quickness.

Neihn

03-02-2010, 05:20 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Angelann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Making it so the losing team gets nothing is NOT the way to go. I will be very [Removed for Content] if I spend 10 to 20 minutes fighting my butt off, lose by a few points, and get nothing at all for my time. This method will penalize the majority of BG players who are participating. Come up with a solution that ONLY penalizes the minority who are afking. </blockquote>Its a penalty for losing, when you lose you get NOTHING this is not a new concept in fact the whole losing and being rewarded is a very new concept that never should have implemented.If you lose a match then you now have motivation to get better at it or continue to lose, the choice is yours</blockquote>The choice is yours but the rest of your group for the most part is not! Most join a queue solo and just auto group. Why should people like us be punished and get nothing for other 5-23 people not caring. I go and always try because I know I will at least get 1 token but I always strive to get better to win because I get 3. But to get nothing despite my effort would just make me not want to play the Battlegrounds.

Wytie

03-02-2010, 05:23 PM

<cite>Neihn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Angelann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Making it so the losing team gets nothing is NOT the way to go. I will be very [Removed for Content] if I spend 10 to 20 minutes fighting my butt off, lose by a few points, and get nothing at all for my time. This method will penalize the majority of BG players who are participating. Come up with a solution that ONLY penalizes the minority who are afking. </blockquote>Its a penalty for losing, when you lose you get NOTHING this is not a new concept in fact the whole losing and being rewarded is a very new concept that never should have implemented.If you lose a match then you now have motivation to get better at it or continue to lose, the choice is yours</blockquote>The choice is yours but the rest of your group for the most part is not! Most join a queue solo and just auto group. Why should people like us be punished and get nothing for other 5-23 people not caring. I go and always try because I know I will at least get 1 token but I always strive to get better to win because I get 3. But to get nothing despite my effort would just make me not want to play the Battlegrounds.</blockquote>Yes this is spot on. I feel the exact same way.

PeaSy1

03-02-2010, 05:25 PM

Im not claiming battlegrounds is a sport im showing you an example of what would happen if the loser didnt get anything.And their is no such thing as getting better...in any aspect other than gear/aa/level.You either understand how the game works or you dont.

Neskonlith

03-02-2010, 05:26 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sorry but there are too many legitimate reasons that someone may have to AFK during their playtime in EQ2. RL > any game, EQ2 or otherwise. If I hit yes and upon zoning into a BG I have something urgent come up in my RL I'm going to attend to it, and if SOE banned that action they'd be closing EQ2 with the quickness.</blockquote>How many "emergencies" can happen time after time, match after match? BeeGees are timed as a set, short period of time that can be pre-planned for, and a GM can easily establish if an "emergency AFK" is valid.A pattern of deliberate abuse is obvious to players and would be as well to an alert GM, and that is the sort of exploiting that deserves a perma-ban.Banning cheaters = the best solution to ensure a fun and honest game for everyone else!

Gaige

03-02-2010, 05:31 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>A pattern of deliberate abuse is obvious to players and would be as well to an alert GM, and that is the sort of exploiting that deserves a perma-ban.</blockquote>Without being in my house, watching my RL, you can't prove anything is deliberate and neither can a GM. Period.

Badmotorfinger

03-02-2010, 05:32 PM

Gaige = straw man of the year.

Neihn

03-02-2010, 05:36 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote>A pattern of deliberate abuse is obvious to players and would be as well to an alert GM, and that is the sort of exploiting that deserves a perma-ban.</blockquote>Without being in my house, watching my RL, you can't prove anything is deliberate and neither can a GM. Period.</blockquote>I'm sorry I know RL issues come up but if you happen to go AFK in 5 of the 6 matches you played in that is not acceptable and very suspicious. If you have RL issues that pull you away that much you should be focusing on RL instead of the game.

Gro

03-02-2010, 05:40 PM

Guess you've established yourself as an afk exploiter. Thanks for that. You should be the first one banned.Constant standing there, doing nothing, match after match is not "emergency afks." You are choosing to go into the bg, standing there, and doing nothing. It is someone abusing the system. People are sh!tbags. The only way you can punish them is to ban them. Nothing will make them play the BG, they just want the shiny token at the end for their gear. Making this gear useful in anything other than a BG was a horrible mistake that ruined WoW for most of the players that started when the game was launched. EQII will head that same direction soon it seems. And after I just came back, how sad.Welfare gear is a great term that was coined several years ago with arena season 1. Here it is again.

Wytie

03-02-2010, 05:43 PM

I just que up, afk, and get my token for the loss while watching tv. In fact I bet I could even make a macro for my G19 to do it. BGs are unbalanced and stupid anyway so I'd rather gear up by watching House. Good job on the AFK losing BG tokens, SOE!<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1253768" target="_blank"></a>Gaige is a PRO AFK'r

Neskonlith

03-02-2010, 05:52 PM

The anti-BeeGee troll faction appears to be actively trying to ruin the pvp fun for others:<img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/beegeesstayinalive.jpg" />Perhaps crazy ol' Lucan D'Lere was actually right: maybe it is a conspiracy!!!11oneone!1!111<img src="http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb310/Bitter_Coffee/screenies/itsaneq2conspiracy.jpg" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

03-02-2010, 06:02 PM

They already said they are fixing the AFK problem, nice job outing yourself as an exploiter.

Neihn

03-02-2010, 06:04 PM

And people like that poster and Gaige it should be a swift punishment all tokens and any items bought with the tokens removed and a 3 day ban from the game and a perma ban for the account from Battlegrounds. I would think it would be possible to ban a account just from the Battlegrounds as it does log you in and out so there should be someway to add a flag.

Gaige

03-02-2010, 06:05 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gaige is a PRO AFK'r</blockquote>Or I'm pro at playing the devil's advocate. SOE can check the logs all the want. They'll see how often I zone into BGs, let alone AFK in them.Also, linking to Flames is a no-no.

Wytie

03-02-2010, 06:15 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gaige is a PRO AFK'r</blockquote>Or I'm pro at playing the devil's advocate. SOE can check the logs all the want. They'll see how often I zone into BGs, let alone AFK in them.Also, linking to Flames is a no-no.</blockquote>Thats fine I removed it, it surved its purpose.Honestly I really wouldnt care what other people did to get a free token, till people like you started ruining my BG matches by taking up a group spot and not helping the team win and get 3.I understand though, you are simply just going to help get this problem solved faster this way so have at it.

Armawk

03-02-2010, 06:26 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree a perfect solution to this would be to 1st remove the reward for losing.Then next add repeatable quest that gives you 1 token for killing or help killing a specific amount of people in a match.Let the repeatable quest be the consolation prize, so people who try, and lose can still get a token and people who afk and do next to nothing dont get jack squat.</blockquote>Yes, lets skew the thing further against players who are new to pvp. That the ticket to make this thing work! Genius!That was sarcasm by the way.Your idea punishes people who try as well as AFKers and is a horrible idea as a consequence.

Crismorn

03-02-2010, 06:38 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree a perfect solution to this would be to 1st remove the reward for losing.Then next add repeatable quest that gives you 1 token for killing or help killing a specific amount of people in a match.Let the repeatable quest be the consolation prize, so people who try, and lose can still get a token and people who afk and do next to nothing dont get jack squat.</blockquote>Yes, lets skew the thing further against players who are new to pvp. That the ticket to make this thing work! Genius!That was sarcasm by the way.Your idea punishes people who try as well as AFKers and is a horrible idea as a consequence.</blockquote>Actually it would force players into getting better and winning or quit and not getting the gear.This is not new guys, SoE decided it was a good idea for rewarding people who fail to win which leads to this type of afk/not trying bs.Rewarding people for failing is a new concept that SoE started, it teaches players that being bad is ok which defeats the entire purpose of having BG's in the first place.

Wytie

03-02-2010, 06:40 PM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree a perfect solution to this would be to 1st remove the reward for losing.Then next add repeatable quest that gives you 1 token for killing or help killing a specific amount of people in a match.Let the repeatable quest be the consolation prize, so people who try, and lose can still get a token and people who afk and do next to nothing dont get jack squat.</blockquote>Yes, lets skew the thing further against players who are new to pvp. That the ticket to make this thing work! Genius!That was sarcasm by the way.Your idea punishes people who try as well as AFKers and is a horrible idea as a consequence.</blockquote>Well why dont explain why you think it punishes people who also try, and how a quest (This is EverQuest right?) skews people who are new to pvp.Tell ya what why dont you give a better idea, Id just love to hear it. Or maybe you just like to baselessly criticize other people ideas because its much easier than actually comming up with and sharing your own.

Neskonlith

03-02-2010, 06:43 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rewarding people for failing is a new concept that SoE started, it teaches players that being bad is ok which defeats the entire purpose of having BG's in the first place. </blockquote>The purpose of having fun?BeeGees are all about having fun with pvp. Open pvp on Naggy is all about hardcore misery and tea-bagging for losers, which encourages players to exploit broken class mechanics to win.Keep the hardcore misery on Naggy, and keep the fun in the BeeGees... and ban all of the cheaters to maintain game integrity!

Kiara

03-02-2010, 06:53 PM

Hey guys, let's steer away from poking at individuals and focusing on the larger abstract problem, please.Remember that we're not down with the tarring and feathering thing, kk?

Crismorn

03-02-2010, 07:16 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rewarding people for failing is a new concept that SoE started, it teaches players that being bad is ok which defeats the entire purpose of having BG's in the first place. </blockquote>The purpose of having fun?BeeGees are all about having fun with pvp. Open pvp on Naggy is all about hardcore misery and tea-bagging for losers, which encourages players to exploit broken class mechanics to win.Keep the hardcore misery on Naggy, and keep the fun in the BeeGees... and ban all of the cheaters to maintain game integrity!</blockquote>Its competitive fun, why bother competing if you do not have to?Thats why people afk or not try, because even doing nothing nets you with rewards.Until players are forced to either try and win or not try and get nothing this type of activity will always be in BG's, if they somehow get a fix for afk players then the players will find another way that is probably just as easy as afking and then that will be "fixed" and yet another scam will pop up..Eventually we will be at the same spot we were in TSO with the grey shard crap, why try and learn when you can get the same rewards for doing neither.Every xpac the player base gets dumber and dumber, while the content gets easier and easier.. Why is this? Why do players keep getting worse and wosrse at something they spend so much time in?Its because they get the same rewards as those who try and learn, which defeats the whole system and turns eq2 into what we have now

vexrm

03-02-2010, 07:28 PM

I've been watching this and want to make an analogy.Let's say you're playing baseball, but the only way to get bats, gloves, shoes, caps, and water is to win. You need to win 5 times to get any one of those items. Only the team you're going up already has all of those.You're not even going to get a chance to try. Having a chance to get some of the gear with losing is a good idea (in theory). I see how it's being abused, but if I don't get anything for playing and I don't have the gear to compete why even try playing? You can say it's skill all you want, but the gear makes a huge difference.

Neskonlith

03-02-2010, 07:42 PM

<cite>vexrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been watching this and want to make an analogy.Let's say you're playing baseball, but the only way to get bats, gloves, shoes, caps, and water is to win. You need to win 5 times to get any one of those items. Only the team you're going up already has all of those.You're not even going to get a chance to try. Having a chance to get some of the gear with losing is a good idea (in theory). I see how it's being abused, but if I don't get anything for playing and I don't have the gear to compete why even try playing? You can say it's skill all you want, but the gear makes a huge difference.</blockquote>To continue that analogy: don't overlook that player-crafted MC BeeGee gear = minor league jerseys and equipment, while the final fabled rewards would be like the Big League sponsorship perks.You have to start out some rounds in the minor circuits to prove yourself...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />While there are still balancing concerns to be addressed in addition to gear, it is also very important to have an AA mirror to spec for pvp, as often the current pve AA specs aren't as effective for many classes.

Crismorn

03-02-2010, 07:45 PM

<cite>vexrm wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been watching this and want to make an analogy.Let's say you're playing baseball, but the only way to get bats, gloves, shoes, caps, and water is to win. You need to win 5 times to get any one of those items. Only the team you're going up already has all of those.You're not even going to get a chance to try. Having a chance to get some of the gear with losing is a good idea (in theory). I see how it's being abused, but if I don't get anything for playing and I don't have the gear to compete why even try playing? You can say it's skill all you want, but the gear makes a huge difference.</blockquote>To get better gear, thats entire point of having gear as a reward.You get better and you start to get gear, you dont keep failing and get rewarded for failing as that starts the entire afking/not trying bs that will NEVER be fixed because some players will ALWAYS go with the path of least resistance for free rewards.I say free because it is basically free, you click one buttons and do nothing it does not get much more free then that.

Rothgar

03-02-2010, 07:47 PM

Giving you a token for trying but losing = good. This is not the problem. People would get frustrated and not play if they wasted 20 minutes of their time, lost and didn't get at least 1 token out of it.There's still a big advantage to winning because 3 tokens is the equivalent of 3 lost matches. So if you want to gear up quickly of course you are going to try and win.The reason people are going AFK is because they can currently do it with no repercussion. That will be fixed tomorrow morning.Tomorrow's hotfix will introduce the AFK voting system. You will now be able to right-click on a player that you think is AFK and vote him off. If the game server has detected activity from him in a recent period of time, you will be informed that your vote didn't count because the player has been active. Once you successfully vote a player as AFK, you may not vote him again. Currently it will take 3 unique members of your team to vote someone out of the match. When that player receives 3 successful votes, he will be kicked from the match, receive no reward and receive the truancy debuff.We can adjust the grace period that we give you before considering you AFK as well as the number of votes it takes to kick someone. We can also disable the voting mechanic completely if an issue is discovered with it.We're also logging every time a person is voted or kicked from a match using this system. If we see that someone is continuously being voted out for AFK'ing, Customer Service may choose to revoke their battlegrounds priviledges.So tomorrow we'll be watching the forums and listening for your feedback on how well this system is working.

Gaige

03-02-2010, 07:49 PM

Leaving it in the hands of the players is going to cause griefing and CS issues Rothgar, but good luck.

Rothgar

03-02-2010, 07:51 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Leaving it in the hands of the players is going to cause griefing and CS issues Rothgar, but good luck.</blockquote>How so? Perhaps something is discovered that we haven't thought of, but we'll just fix it. For now, you can't vote someone unless they've actually been inactive for a period of time. So how can you grief someone that is active?What CS issues? I appreciate your concern, but try to give us some real feedback and not just pessimism.

Gaige

03-02-2010, 07:56 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>How so? Perhaps something is discovered that we haven't thought of, but we'll just fix it. For now, you can't vote someone unless they've actually been inactive for a period of time. So how can you grief someone that is active?What CS issues? I appreciate your concern, but try to give us some real feedback and not just pessimism.</blockquote>I was just commenting on experiences from other games, but perhaps the checks you've put in will be sufficient. I wasn't trying to be pessimistic, I just realize how players are, that's all.I'm glad to see you guys have resolved the AFK issue quickly though, tbh.

Kendricke

03-02-2010, 08:06 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Leaving it in the hands of the players is going to cause griefing and CS issues Rothgar, but good luck.</blockquote>How so? Perhaps something is discovered that we haven't thought of, but we'll just fix it. </blockquote>Can you only vote out members of your own team? Can you initiate a vote on members of another team?Can you only votes on characters you can find and see (for the right click)?What determines "inactivity"? Can players adjust their G15 keyboard to fire off one of several different patterns of action every other minute? Can a player join a match and just ignore the fight while chitchatting with friends in chat channels?

Gungo

03-02-2010, 08:07 PM

03-02-2010, 08:10 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Giving you a token for trying but losing = good. This is not the problem. People would get frustrated and not play if they wasted 20 minutes of their time, lost and didn't get at least 1 token out of it.There's still a big advantage to winning because 3 tokens is the equivalent of 3 lost matches. So if you want to gear up quickly of course you are going to try and win.The reason people are going AFK is because they can currently do it with no repercussion. That will be fixed tomorrow morning.Tomorrow's hotfix will introduce the AFK voting system. You will now be able to right-click on a player that you think is AFK and vote him off. If the game server has detected activity from him in a recent period of time, you will be informed that your vote didn't count because the player has been active.Once you successfully vote a player as AFK, you may not vote him again. Currently it will take 3 unique members of your team to vote someone out of the match. When that player receives 3 successful votes, he will be kicked from the match, receive no reward and receive the truancy debuff.We can adjust the grace period that we give you before considering you AFK as well as the number of votes it takes to kick someone. We can also disable the voting mechanic completely if an issue is discovered with it.We're also logging every time a person is voted or kicked from a match using this system. If we see that someone is continuously being voted out for AFK'ing, Customer Service may choose to revoke their battlegrounds priviledges.So tomorrow we'll be watching the forums and listening for your feedback on how well this system is working.</blockquote>I think that is an excellent solution, keep up the good work!

Kendricke

03-02-2010, 08:10 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Leaving it in the hands of the players is going to cause griefing and CS issues Rothgar, but good luck.</blockquote>As long as you are trying it wont matter. If you do not move or attack in a set period then thier vote wont work.</blockquote>1. Join match2. Chat with friends while ignoring the fighting. 3. Revive from time to time.4. ???5. Profit! (BG token)

Irthos

03-02-2010, 08:16 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm glad to see you guys have resolved the AFK issue quickly though, tbh.</blockquote>Wow.<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite>I just que up, afk, and get my token for the loss while watching tv. In fact I bet I could even make a macro for my G19 to do it. BGs are unbalanced and stupid anyway so I'd rather gear up by watching House.<div><div>Quote:</div> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="6" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td><div>Originally Posted by Crabbok <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/general-gameplay/60063-q-f-q-2.html#post1253773"><img title="View Post" src="http://www.eq2flames.com/images/styles/eq2/buttons/viewpost.gif" border="0" /></a></div> <div>So you hurt other's chances of getting a win and 3 toeksn eh? Nice dbag-ish move there.</div></td></tr></tbody></table></div>Yes. I get to grief lamers using the BGs, I get BG gear with no effort and I get to listen to you whine..Yes, and the community I care about doesn't care about BGs, and if they do its only because they need the BG gear to raid. So they're either doing the same thing I am or skipping BGs entirely. I've hated them, I'll always hate them, and I think its funny that they were so poorly implemented. Once I have a couple hundred of each token to ensure I can forever get anything SOE forces me to have from them for my playstyle, I'll never touch them again. From the amount of times I've seen entire teams AFK, I seriously doubt I'm the only person grinding tokens in this manner. Is it an exploit? Maybe. Does it matter? No. Is it funny? Hell yes.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~All in direct context to the subject of AFKing in BGs. Just so you know where Gaige stands.Decent idea Rothgar, but I can already see a loophole in it....

Neskonlith

03-02-2010, 08:17 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Join match2. Chat with friends while ignoring the fighting. 3. Revive from time to time.4. ???5. Profit! (BG token)</blockquote>While this is a slightly more sophisticated attempt at exploiting, I think the battle stats would also soon highlight such a cheater. It is really sad when there are so many ways for a player to deliberately abuse a system with impunity.Hopefully banning the cheaters will eventually weed out the lamers enough so that real players can get on with the game of having fun!

DuneWarrior

03-02-2010, 08:20 PM

Im sure someone already posted this, but ill repeat it - and yes it was mentioned in beta too :The only way to have people actually DO Battlegrounds to DO battlegrounds, is to make the rewards useable only in ... TADA ... Battlegrounds.If the rewards are useable outside battlegrounds, people will find a way to get the rewards without participating, be it g15's or other ways to beat the inactivity timer, be it sitting and chatting while moving around hitting revive once in awhile.Putting in a vote and an inactivity timer only means that they wont leave the keyboard, wont stop them from watching TV, Reading a book, Chatting in voice/vent/text, while NOT partaking...Is it boring ?? hell yeah, but people WILL do it.

03-02-2010, 08:21 PM

If somebody has to sit there and half pay attention, why not play the game?

Gungo

03-02-2010, 08:22 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Leaving it in the hands of the players is going to cause griefing and CS issues Rothgar, but good luck.</blockquote>As long as you are trying it wont matter. If you do not move or attack in a set period then thier vote wont work.</blockquote>1. Join match2. Chat with friends while ignoring the fighting. 3. Revive from time to time.4. ???5. Profit! (BG token)</blockquote>Notice the KEY word i bolded and underlined. You need to attack or engage in combat. If you do not participate in PVP combat in a set amount of time then you are obviously not trying.

Crismorn

03-02-2010, 08:24 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Giving you a token for trying but losing = good. This is not the problem. People would get frustrated and not play if they wasted 20 minutes of their time, lost and didn't get at least 1 token out of it.There's still a big advantage to winning because 3 tokens is the equivalent of 3 lost matches. So if you want to gear up quickly of course you are going to try and win.The reason people are going AFK is because they can currently do it with no repercussion. That will be fixed tomorrow morning.Tomorrow's hotfix will introduce the AFK voting system. You will now be able to right-click on a player that you think is AFK and vote him off. If the game server has detected activity from him in a recent period of time, you will be informed that your vote didn't count because the player has been active. Once you successfully vote a player as AFK, you may not vote him again. Currently it will take 3 unique members of your team to vote someone out of the match. When that player receives 3 successful votes, he will be kicked from the match, receive no reward and receive the truancy debuff.We can adjust the grace period that we give you before considering you AFK as well as the number of votes it takes to kick someone. We can also disable the voting mechanic completely if an issue is discovered with it.We're also logging every time a person is voted or kicked from a match using this system. If we see that someone is continuously being voted out for AFK'ing, Customer Service may choose to revoke their battlegrounds priviledges.So tomorrow we'll be watching the forums and listening for your feedback on how well this system is working.</blockquote>thats an awesome start, any chance you could make it so the opposing team can also vote for afk's to stop players from having a team knowingly allow someone to afk during a match.Ie. Some raidguild forms a bg group, but billy cant play the bg but still wants a reward and they knowingly let him stay afk for the whole match cause hes their friend.I could see some groups logging in a friend or alt account just to leave him afk for the rewards, being able to vote from the opposing team would somewhat alleviate this.Thank ya

Gungo

03-02-2010, 08:26 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Giving you a token for trying but losing = good. This is not the problem. People would get frustrated and not play if they wasted 20 minutes of their time, lost and didn't get at least 1 token out of it.There's still a big advantage to winning because 3 tokens is the equivalent of 3 lost matches. So if you want to gear up quickly of course you are going to try and win.The reason people are going AFK is because they can currently do it with no repercussion. That will be fixed tomorrow morning.Tomorrow's hotfix will introduce the AFK voting system. You will now be able to right-click on a player that you think is AFK and vote him off. If the game server has detected activity from him in a recent period of time, you will be informed that your vote didn't count because the player has been active. Once you successfully vote a player as AFK, you may not vote him again. Currently it will take 3 unique members of your team to vote someone out of the match. When that player receives 3 successful votes, he will be kicked from the match, receive no reward and receive the truancy debuff.We can adjust the grace period that we give you before considering you AFK as well as the number of votes it takes to kick someone. We can also disable the voting mechanic completely if an issue is discovered with it.We're also logging every time a person is voted or kicked from a match using this system. If we see that someone is continuously being voted out for AFK'ing, Customer Service may choose to revoke their battlegrounds priviledges.So tomorrow we'll be watching the forums and listening for your feedback on how well this system is working.</blockquote>thats an awesome start, any chance you could make it so the opposing team can also vote for afk's to stop players from having a team knowingly allow someone to afk during a match.Ie. Some raidguild forms a bg group, but billy cant play the bg but still wants a reward and they knowingly let him stay afk for the whole match cause hes their friend.I could see some groups logging in a friend or alt account just to leave him afk for the rewards, being able to vote from the opposing team would somewhat alleviate this.Thank ya</blockquote>Now that would be way to easy to grief. Although I am sure some 2 boxers will do this, regardless.

Azrael_888

03-02-2010, 08:27 PM

<cite>Jane@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>If somebody has to sit there and half pay attention, why not play the game?</blockquote>To them it's funnier to watch other people GAF about how they aren't doing anything and how they're ruining their chances at winning the match.legitimate player tells AFK'er/GrieferDOOD HELP US !!!Griefer replies with:HA HA HA U LAMERZ! I get free BG's TOKENZ FOR AFing YOUZ!!! HA HA HA!!!Guaranteed. I'll even bet they quote me...

Neskonlith

03-02-2010, 08:29 PM

<cite>Zaktull@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only way to have people actually DO Battlegrounds to DO battlegrounds, is to make the rewards useable only in ... TADA ... Battlegrounds. </blockquote>Yet your proposed solution punishes everyone participating in the BeeGees, both the innocent and the guilty.Punish the guilty and the cheating will stop. Enforcing the rules and applying penalties to the exploiters will ensure that the honest players will earn the rewards in the manner that is intended, all while having fun!

Rothgar

03-02-2010, 08:29 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Leaving it in the hands of the players is going to cause griefing and CS issues Rothgar, but good luck.</blockquote>How so? Perhaps something is discovered that we haven't thought of, but we'll just fix it. </blockquote>Can you only vote out members of your own team? YesCan you initiate a vote on members of another team?No. And you aren't really initiating a vote, you are just voting. Its up to other players to vote them as well. It will not send a message to other players asking them to vote. We didn't want to encourage mob-mentality where one person initiates a vote and everyone else just clicks yes without being sure for themselves.Can you only votes on characters you can find and see (for the right click)?Yes, you cannot do it with a command for the same mob-mentality reason.What determines "inactivity"? Can players adjust their G15 keyboard to fire off one of several different patterns of action every other minute? Can a player join a match and just ignore the fight while chitchatting with friends in chat channels?I don't want to go into specifics for obvious reasons, but you must be participating in the match. Things like doing damage, healing, progressing the objectives of the match count as activity. Chatting, managing your inventory, stuff like that does not count as activity. This isn't the same as the other activity timers. This is strictly "are you helping progress your team towards victory"?</blockquote>

Azrael_888

03-02-2010, 08:29 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Leaving it in the hands of the players is going to cause griefing and CS issues Rothgar, but good luck.</blockquote>As long as you are trying it wont matter. If you do not move or attack in a set period then thier vote wont work.</blockquote>1. Join match2. Chat with friends while ignoring the fighting. 3. Revive from time to time.4. ???5. Profit! (BG token)</blockquote>Notice the KEY word i bolded and underlined. You need to attack or engage in combat. If you do not participate in PVP combat in a set amount of time then you are obviously not trying.</blockquote>Gungo SRSLY? L2RIt Says OR...OR means if you do ONE thing out of the options listed then you are NOT AFK.now if it was the word AND you would have an argument. But sadly it's OR.

Rothgar

03-02-2010, 08:31 PM

<cite>Irthos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Decent idea Rothgar, but I can already see a loophole in it....</blockquote>Do you want to share it with me so we can evaluate it? Send me a PM if you like.

Kendricke

03-02-2010, 08:33 PM

<cite>Neskonlith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. Join match2. Chat with friends while ignoring the fighting. 3. Revive from time to time.4. ???5. Profit! (BG token)</blockquote>While this is a slightly more sophisticated attempt at exploiting, I think the battle stats would also soon highlight such a cheater. It is really sad when there are so many ways for a player to deliberately abuse a system with impunity.Hopefully banning the cheaters will eventually weed out the lamers enough so that real players can get on with the game of having fun!</blockquote>Is it cheating, though? If I try that in Warhammer Online, I quickly lose out on the rewards I could earn. Of course, my heals in Warhammer Online actually provide buffs for me as a Warrior-Priest that make me less of an immediate target and more of a participant in the overall combat too, but that's a topic for a different discussion (balancing PVE classes toward PVP in a game that isn't built around PVP). In Warhammer Online, I can earn experience for individual kills. Even if I'm on a losing team, as an individual I can try for individual awards - this encourages me to become an active participant. The very design of Warhammer scenarios encourages player involvement - there's little to no reward for non-participation. I get points for any positive action I perform - whether it's damage to other players or heals I cast on my own teammates. In Everquest II battlefields, players are awarded for both participation and non-participation. The only difference is that players on the winning team earn the same rewards faster than players on the losing team. Being a great player doesn't matter if you're stuck on a team that's not very organized. Being a horrible player doesn't matter so long as you get on a team that wins. There aren't any individual bonuses so far as I can tell - it's all team based. You can be the best player ever, but if your team loses...none of that matters, right?Unfortunately, it's a matter of incentives and encouragement of the design. If players are given the same rewards win or lose (sure, you get more of the rewards for winning...but it's still the same basic reward), then there's going to be a percentage of players who will start figuring out ways to game the system. Sure, SOE programmers and customer service can get involved to add more checks to the system and to enact punitive action against players who find the best ways to game this system. However, even without such players, the battlegrounds are still based around team efforts so far as I've seen. It just takes one or two poor players to sink a team. Forget about AFK players. What about players who just start running around without buffs or gear on who try to wrack up deaths? What about players who just aren't very good or geared? What about players who intentionally decide to sabotage their own team efforts because they just don't like the people they ended up grouped with? At the end of the match, these people still get their token, too.

Armawk

03-02-2010, 08:35 PM

<cite>Azrael_888 wrote:</cite><blockquote>legitimate player tells AFK'er/GrieferDOOD HELP US !!!Griefer replies with:HA HA HA U LAMERZ! I get free BG's TOKENZ FOR AFing YOUZ!!! HA HA HA!!!</blockquote>thats what /report is for

Rothgar

03-02-2010, 08:36 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Giving you a token for trying but losing = good. This is not the problem. People would get frustrated and not play if they wasted 20 minutes of their time, lost and didn't get at least 1 token out of it.There's still a big advantage to winning because 3 tokens is the equivalent of 3 lost matches. So if you want to gear up quickly of course you are going to try and win.The reason people are going AFK is because they can currently do it with no repercussion. That will be fixed tomorrow morning.Tomorrow's hotfix will introduce the AFK voting system. You will now be able to right-click on a player that you think is AFK and vote him off. If the game server has detected activity from him in a recent period of time, you will be informed that your vote didn't count because the player has been active. Once you successfully vote a player as AFK, you may not vote him again. Currently it will take 3 unique members of your team to vote someone out of the match. When that player receives 3 successful votes, he will be kicked from the match, receive no reward and receive the truancy debuff.We can adjust the grace period that we give you before considering you AFK as well as the number of votes it takes to kick someone. We can also disable the voting mechanic completely if an issue is discovered with it.We're also logging every time a person is voted or kicked from a match using this system. If we see that someone is continuously being voted out for AFK'ing, Customer Service may choose to revoke their battlegrounds priviledges.So tomorrow we'll be watching the forums and listening for your feedback on how well this system is working.</blockquote>thats an awesome start, any chance you could make it so the opposing team can also vote for afk's to stop players from having a team knowingly allow someone to afk during a match.Ie. Some raidguild forms a bg group, but billy cant play the bg but still wants a reward and they knowingly let him stay afk for the whole match cause hes their friend.I could see some groups logging in a friend or alt account just to leave him afk for the rewards, being able to vote from the opposing team would somewhat alleviate this.Thank ya</blockquote>We probably won't allow cross-team voting. It's really up to your team to manage your own people. Some data is not 100% available to other teams. You can't see their dot on the map, you can't talk to him to know if he has a good reason for standing there looking like he's AFK. And we certainly don't want you to gain an advantage in a battleground by having your team vote off someone from the OTHER team.

Gungo

03-02-2010, 08:37 PM

<cite>Azrael_888 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>As long as you are trying it wont matter. If you do not move or attack in a set period then thier vote wont work.</blockquote>1. Join match2. Chat with friends while ignoring the fighting. 3. Revive from time to time.4. ???5. Profit! (BG token)</blockquote>Notice the KEY word i bolded and underlined. You need to attack or engage in combat. If you do not participate in PVP combat in a set amount of time then you are obviously not trying.</blockquote>Gungo SRSLY? L2RIt Says OR... OR means if you do ONE thing out of the options listed then you are NOT AFK. now if it was the word AND you would have an argument. But sadly it's OR. </blockquote>Considering I wrote it I know exactly what I meant. Considering he never mentioned moving OR attacking it doesnt matter.You might want to learn to read yourself. Now if it contained the word move OR attack you would have an argument, but sadly it doesn't.

Kendricke

03-02-2010, 08:40 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote>Leaving it in the hands of the players is going to cause griefing and CS issues Rothgar, but good luck.</blockquote>How so? Perhaps something is discovered that we haven't thought of, but we'll just fix it. </blockquote>Can you only vote out members of your own team? YesCan you initiate a vote on members of another team?No. And you aren't really initiating a vote, you are just voting. Its up to other players to vote them as well. It will not send a message to other players asking them to vote. We didn't want to encourage mob-mentality where one person initiates a vote and everyone else just clicks yes without being sure for themselves.Can you only votes on characters you can find and see (for the right click)?Yes, you cannot do it with a command for the same mob-mentality reason.What determines "inactivity"? Can players adjust their G15 keyboard to fire off one of several different patterns of action every other minute? Can a player join a match and just ignore the fight while chitchatting with friends in chat channels?I don't want to go into specifics for obvious reasons, but you must be participating in the match. Things like doing damage, healing, progressing the objectives of the match count as activity. Chatting, managing your inventory, stuff like that does not count as activity. This isn't the same as the other activity timers. This is strictly "are you helping progress your team towards victory"?</blockquote></blockquote>1. The kick only occurs after three votes? What if a player hits stealth or just finds a corner and hides out for the match? 2. Could a player just multi-box a team (or just coordinate friends/guildmates/multiple multiboxers) and not worry about votes since they control the team?3. How does this address other types of griefing? Priests who start dropping buffs just as the fighter rushes in; players who take off their own gear; players who decide to just put in the bare minimum effort that results in them not being kicked/voted off? I can think of a half dozen ways to game this system just off the top of my head. Is there anything to prevent those types of players from earnning that token at the end of the match? Is there anything to prevent those types of players from harming the chances of their teammates? How would you even petition someone for not putting in "enough" effort to contribute toward your team's victory chances?

Azrael_888

03-02-2010, 08:46 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Azrael_888 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>As long as you are trying it wont matter. If you do not move or attack in a set period then thier vote wont work.</blockquote>1. Join match2. Chat with friends while ignoring the fighting. 3. Revive from time to time.4. ???5. Profit! (BG token)</blockquote>Notice the KEY word i bolded and underlined. You need to attack or engage in combat. If you do not participate in PVP combat in a set amount of time then you are obviously not trying.</blockquote>Gungo SRSLY? L2RIt Says OR... OR means if you do ONE thing out of the options listed then you are NOT AFK. now if it was the word AND you would have an argument. But sadly it's OR. </blockquote>Considering I wrote it I know exactly what I meant. Considering he never mentioned moving OR attacking it doesnt matter.You might want to learn to read yourself. Now if it contained the word move OR attack you would have an argument, but sadly it doesn't.</blockquote>You right I didn't read who posted it just saw that the argument was based on improper conjuction use.I still say your logic doesn't win just because YOU wrote it and YOU know what you were intending when you wrote it. Maybe I should have said Learn Grammar. But then again it's forums and I'm a troll and Kiara specifcally states:Looks around for a Kiara post...

Neskonlith

03-02-2010, 08:47 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>In Everquest II battlefields, players are awarded for both participation and non-participation. The only difference is that players on the winning team earn the same rewards faster than players on the losing team. It just takes one or two poor players to sink a team. Forget about AFK players. What about players who just start running around without buffs or gear on who try to wrack up deaths? What about players who just aren't very good or geared? What about players who intentionally decide to sabotage their own team efforts because they just don't like the people they ended up grouped with? At the end of the match, these people still get their token, too. </blockquote>Good points, but let me look at these few in particular in light of the thread topic:I imagine the battle stats will make it obvious when a player is trying to advance: healers will be healing, deeps will be dpsing, tanks will be tanking, and rangers will be running around screaming in fear like they normally do. Honest players giving the contest a good try will accrue battle stats that highlight their efforts.AFK exploiters will likely show a pattern of zeros to match the effort they put into the match.Ban the exploiters, and they earn zero rewards for cheating.When all that is left are the honest players, then the other concerns of gear, skill and Teamwork become significant factors.

skylancer

03-02-2010, 08:54 PM

I am pretty sure more than a few people are mouse machining BG's.It is only 2 mouse clicks to get into BG- I have had several instances where people never move and never say a word whole time in there.Think SOE need to start kicking people auto if they dont move 30 seconds after start, or better yet no tokens for losing.

Thundy

03-02-2010, 09:10 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>We probably won't allow cross-team voting. It's really up to your team to manage your own people. Some data is not 100% available to other teams. You can't see their dot on the map, you can't talk to him to know if he has a good reason for standing there looking like he's AFK. And we certainly don't want you to gain an advantage in a battleground by having your team vote off someone from the OTHER team.</blockquote>I appreciate your fast response on this problem but I really don't think putting it in the hands of the players is going to work.One problem I see already is now you're forcing players to take time away from actually fighting to flag people AFK, when they would be better served just letting the server get rid of them automatically while the real players do what they are supposed to do. I'm supposed to be hunting the opposite team, not AFKers <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gaige

03-02-2010, 09:34 PM

<cite>Irthos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>All in direct context to the subject of AFKing in BGs. Just so you know where Gaige stands.</blockquote>I was playing the devil's advocate and having fun with Crabbok. I'm sure Rothgar can look into my character and see I've joined a total of one BG, which was a 6v6, my team won and I had 37 kills. I haven't used BGs since and I won't either unless SOE puts good gear on the merchants, which currently there isn't any, especially with all the "only in pvp" they added to the procs this morning.You shouldn't let yourself believe everything you read on the internet. If anything my posts about reaping rewards by AFKing helped fix it, so you should be thanking me for wasting my time on a facet of the game I couldn't possibly care less about.Edit:After reading Kendricke's posts he is right. All this does is entice players to:1) Box the entire BG team2) Join BGs with other AFKers, who obviously won't report each other3) "Actively" play while watching TV. This can include dying on purpose, sabotaging your own team, running the flag to the other team's spawn point, etc etcIf I have to get kills, capture the flag, hold the relic - aka be good at BGs - to prove that I'm actively playing, won't that discourage terrible players from using BGs in the first place?I'm pretty confident from playing the PvE aspect of EQ2 that there are going to be players who actively try BGs and still put up ZEROS across the board and die 100x per contest. Are you going to allow teams to vote them off for being terrible?If so, as I said previously, griefing.

Adba

03-02-2010, 09:43 PM

Any toon that are inactive should be auto-booted after a minute max, with no win/loss token(s) at all.. There should not be any warning for the toon which could be detected and abused.If a toon is not active in Battlegrounds, the toon is not participating and have no right to claim any token whatsoever, regardles of whatever reason there might be for afk'ing, be it "ninja", exploitation, or actual real life interference..If you're not there, you are NOT THERE..my 2c

kcirrot

03-02-2010, 10:14 PM

Rothgar

03-02-2010, 11:12 PM

<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. The kick only occurs after three votes? What if a player hits stealth or just finds a corner and hides out for the match? 2. Could a player just multi-box a team (or just coordinate friends/guildmates/multiple multiboxers) and not worry about votes since they control the team?3. How does this address other types of griefing? Priests who start dropping buffs just as the fighter rushes in; players who take off their own gear; players who decide to just put in the bare minimum effort that results in them not being kicked/voted off? I can think of a half dozen ways to game this system just off the top of my head. Is there anything to prevent those types of players from earnning that token at the end of the match? Is there anything to prevent those types of players from harming the chances of their teammates? How would you even petition someone for not putting in "enough" effort to contribute toward your team's victory chances?</blockquote>We're not trying to solve world hunger here, we're just trying to combat the AFK problem. Your questions are moving into an entirely new territory. There's a big difference between someone not contributing at all and not being very effective. The line between the two is the difference between something concrete that we can detect and something that's very objective and open to opinion. A computer program (EQII) can't make those objective decisions, only players can. And if we put the system 100% into the players hand it will definitely open it up for griefing.Enter another solution that we would like to implement in the future, and that's an "ignore list" for battlegrounds. This would allow you to say you prefer to not play with this person and our matchmaker would take that into consideration. This still has a lot of details to work out before we can consider doing it, but this is the type of system that would help stop the concerns you bring up.

Rothgar

03-02-2010, 11:16 PM

<cite>skylancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am pretty sure more than a few people are mouse machining BG's.It is only 2 mouse clicks to get into BG- I have had several instances where people never move and never say a word whole time in there.Think SOE need to start kicking people auto if they dont move 30 seconds after start, or better yet no tokens for losing.</blockquote>If players are "mouse machining" 2 clicks to get in, what makes you think they wouldn't add a down-arrow to that just to circumvent the "30 second move" rule?The voting system allows the other teammates to kick that player if they aren't participating.

Rothgar

03-02-2010, 11:17 PM

<cite>Thundy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>We probably won't allow cross-team voting. It's really up to your team to manage your own people. Some data is not 100% available to other teams. You can't see their dot on the map, you can't talk to him to know if he has a good reason for standing there looking like he's AFK. And we certainly don't want you to gain an advantage in a battleground by having your team vote off someone from the OTHER team.</blockquote>I appreciate your fast response on this problem but I really don't think putting it in the hands of the players is going to work.One problem I see already is now you're forcing players to take time away from actually fighting to flag people AFK, when they would be better served just letting the server get rid of them automatically while the real players do what they are supposed to do. I'm supposed to be hunting the opposite team, not AFKers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>How does the server know to remove you automatically? What if you are defending the flag in a Ganak match and not moving or casting anything? Would it be fair to boot that player?

Nailoo

03-02-2010, 11:23 PM

Agreed, it sucks.I've been in alot of groups with some @ss with their akf tags up just sitting and waiting for it to end. It ruins it for the rest of us that at least want a chance at winning. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /> Please find a way to deal with these people. I think the idea of no token if your afk tag goes up is great. Yeah it might screw over some people every once in a while that have a real afk emergency (kid throwing poo or the house catching fire etc) but those times for most are few and far between.I think that would be a way better solution than not giving a single token to people on the losing team. With how BG is now sometimes you just run into bad luck. One team is a random bunch of pve'rs that have never pvp'd or grouped together before and the other team is a group of guildies from a pvp server that do this stuff everyday AND have <a href="mailto:bad@ss">bad@ss</a> pvp gear, there's no contest. You should at least get something for trying if you're hanging out for 15 mins, even if you get killed 100 times, as long as you were there and running around trying to accomplish something you should get a little bit of love.

Megavolt

03-02-2010, 11:28 PM

<cite>Nailoo@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Agreed, it sucks.I've been in alot of groups with some @ss with their akf tags up just sitting and waiting for it to end. It ruins it for the rest of us that at least want a chance at winning. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /> Please find a way to deal with these people. I think the idea of no token if your afk tag goes up is great. Yeah it might screw over some people every once in a while that have a real afk emergency (kid throwing poo or the house catching fire etc) but those times for most are few and far between.I think that would be a way better solution than not giving a single token to people on the losing team. With how BG is now sometimes you just run into bad luck. One team is a random bunch of pve'rs that have never pvp'd or grouped together before and the other team is a group of guildies from a pvp server that do this stuff everyday AND have <a href="mailto:bad@ss">bad@ss</a> pvp gear, there's no contest. You should at least get something for trying if you're hanging out for 15 mins, even if you get killed 100 times, as long as you were there and running around trying to accomplish something you should get a little bit of love.</blockquote>Because it's funny to throw on an afk tag at the spawn point and watch somebody go in for an easy kill and pummel 'em.

03-02-2010, 11:31 PM

Just make them KoS and lootable.

Uilamin

03-02-2010, 11:52 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thundy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>We probably won't allow cross-team voting. It's really up to your team to manage your own people. Some data is not 100% available to other teams. You can't see their dot on the map, you can't talk to him to know if he has a good reason for standing there looking like he's AFK. And we certainly don't want you to gain an advantage in a battleground by having your team vote off someone from the OTHER team.</blockquote>I appreciate your fast response on this problem but I really don't think putting it in the hands of the players is going to work.One problem I see already is now you're forcing players to take time away from actually fighting to flag people AFK, when they would be better served just letting the server get rid of them automatically while the real players do what they are supposed to do. I'm supposed to be hunting the opposite team, not AFKers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>How does the server know to remove you automatically? What if you are defending the flag in a Ganak match and not moving or casting anything? Would it be fair to boot that player?</blockquote>After a minute of inactivity (or some other duration) have a message display on the screen that tells the person they have x seconds to make an action or be kicked. That way people defending the flag can see the message and simply just cast a spell (I would avoid considering movement an action due to auto-run) or use an item/ability.

Thundy

03-03-2010, 01:13 AM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thundy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>We probably won't allow cross-team voting. It's really up to your team to manage your own people. Some data is not 100% available to other teams. You can't see their dot on the map, you can't talk to him to know if he has a good reason for standing there looking like he's AFK. And we certainly don't want you to gain an advantage in a battleground by having your team vote off someone from the OTHER team.</blockquote>I appreciate your fast response on this problem but I really don't think putting it in the hands of the players is going to work.One problem I see already is now you're forcing players to take time away from actually fighting to flag people AFK, when they would be better served just letting the server get rid of them automatically while the real players do what they are supposed to do. I'm supposed to be hunting the opposite team, not AFKers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>How does the server know to remove you automatically? What if you are defending the flag in a Ganak match and not moving or casting anything? Would it be fair to boot that player?</blockquote>Meh to this response. There are a bunch of different ways through code that I'm sure you could improve this idea. A big red message.. a klaxxon sound.. screen flashes purple.. whatever. But instead you've just made it so the AFKers just have to find new hiding spots, and we have to find 'em.Also if a person's idea of "defending the flag" is standing still for a minute they should be booted on principle.

Neihn

03-03-2010, 01:17 AM

<cite>Zaktull@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only way to have people actually DO Battlegrounds to DO battlegrounds, is to make the rewards useable only in ... TADA ... Battlegrounds.</blockquote>This is not a good choice. If the armor is only used in the Battlegrounds you will really kill the Battlegrounds due to Blue server players not really having a reason to go in there. At least now the Armor anyways is useful both in and out of the Battlegrounds. By making it BG only you just removed a reason for blue servers to participate. I am from a blue server and I would even most likely would drastically cut back on the matches i go into or stop entirely as there would be absolutly no reason for me to continually go in there.

lollipop

03-03-2010, 01:19 AM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Irthos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>All in direct context to the subject of AFKing in BGs. Just so you know where Gaige stands.</blockquote>I was playing the devil's advocate and having fun with Crabbok. I'm sure Rothgar can look into my character and see I've joined a total of one BG, which was a 6v6, my team won and I had 37 kills. I haven't used BGs since and I won't either unless SOE puts good gear on the merchants, which currently there isn't any, especially with all the "only in pvp" they added to the procs this morning.You shouldn't let yourself believe everything you read on the internet. If anything my posts about reaping rewards by AFKing helped fix it, so you should be thanking me for wasting my time on a facet of the game I couldn't possibly care less about.Edit:After reading Kendricke's posts he is right. All this does is entice players to:1) Box the entire BG team2) Join BGs with other AFKers, who obviously won't report each other3) "Actively" play while watching TV. This can include dying on purpose, sabotaging your own team, running the flag to the other team's spawn point, etc etcIf I have to get kills, capture the flag, hold the relic - aka be good at BGs - to prove that I'm actively playing, won't that discourage terrible players from using BGs in the first place?I'm pretty confident from playing the PvE aspect of EQ2 that there are going to be players who actively try BGs and still put up ZEROS across the board and die 100x per contest. Are you going to allow teams to vote them off for being terrible?If so, as I said previously, griefing.</blockquote>In the end they will make BG gear BG only and no one but PVP servers will join.

Khurghan

03-03-2010, 03:57 AM

CAPTCHA every 30 seconds for each player if they fail they get kicked - PROBLEM SORTED!11

Neihn

03-03-2010, 04:14 AM

<cite>Khurghan wrote:</cite><blockquote>CAPTCHA every 30 seconds for each player if they fail they get kicked - PROBLEM SORTED!11</blockquote>That would be completely annoying when you are trying to PvP to have to stop every 30 seconds to enter a captcha code.

TheSpin

03-03-2010, 04:31 AM

If Captcha is the thing where you have to type a word that's displayed on a picutre, like much of hte internet is now using.... I'd suggest you consider adding one to the beginning of a match to get in, and at the end of a match to collect tokens.It may not solve all the problems, but it would solve mouse machining or whatever you're calling it.

Kunaak

03-03-2010, 11:31 AM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>If Captcha is the thing where you have to type a word that's displayed on a picutre, like much of hte internet is now using.... I'd suggest you consider adding one to the beginning of a match to get in, and at the end of a match to collect tokens.It may not solve all the problems, but it would solve mouse machining or whatever you're calling it.</blockquote>+1 for this idea.

Armironhead

03-03-2010, 01:00 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote>1. The kick only occurs after three votes? What if a player hits stealth or just finds a corner and hides out for the match? 2. Could a player just multi-box a team (or just coordinate friends/guildmates/multiple multiboxers) and not worry about votes since they control the team?3. How does this address other types of griefing? Priests who start dropping buffs just as the fighter rushes in; players who take off their own gear; players who decide to just put in the bare minimum effort that results in them not being kicked/voted off? I can think of a half dozen ways to game this system just off the top of my head. Is there anything to prevent those types of players from earnning that token at the end of the match? Is there anything to prevent those types of players from harming the chances of their teammates? How would you even petition someone for not putting in "enough" effort to contribute toward your team's victory chances?</blockquote>We're not trying to solve world hunger here, we're just trying to combat the AFK problem. Your questions are moving into an entirely new territory. There's a big difference between someone not contributing at all and not being very effective. The line between the two is the difference between something concrete that we can detect and something that's very objective and open to opinion. A computer program (EQII) can't make those objective decisions, only players can. And if we put the system 100% into the players hand it will definitely open it up for griefing.Enter another solution that we would like to implement in the future, and that's an "ignore list" for battlegrounds. This would allow you to say you prefer to not play with this person and our matchmaker would take that into consideration. This still has a lot of details to work out before we can consider doing it, but this is the type of system that would help stop the concerns you bring up.</blockquote>The bgs should have been set up with a launch hub - where a player could open a game and then see who joins the game prior to the game launching. The player who started the game could have control over his teammates, that way if he sees a notorious afk-er he can boot him before the game launched. As for opponents they could have the same dynamic, first opponent who logs into the game has control over who is going to be his teammates. There are added benefits to a system like that - you get better balancing as the players control who is on their team and can see who they are to fight in advance and can be provided with the option of either accepting or rejecting the challenge. There also needs to be a concede feature. Its down right stupid to make people stick around for the full game when you can generally tell in the first 3 minutes (especially in klack) whether its going to just be another beatdown. The lack of a concede feature and the imbalances in the matachmaking encourage afk'ers.

Silverzx

03-03-2010, 01:24 PM

<cite>Neihn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zaktull@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only way to have people actually DO Battlegrounds to DO battlegrounds, is to make the rewards useable only in ... TADA ... Battlegrounds.</blockquote>This is not a good choice. If the armor is only used in the Battlegrounds you will really kill the Battlegrounds due to Blue server players not really having a reason to go in there. At least now the Armor anyways is useful both in and out of the Battlegrounds. By making it BG only you just removed a reason for blue servers to participate. I am from a blue server and I would even most likely would drastically cut back on the matches i go into or stop entirely as there would be absolutly no reason for me to continually go in there.</blockquote>and the pvp players would have a reason to go there? Arenas in other games(not counting WoW, are we trying to be WoW?) don't have such powerful rewards. This is one solution i agree on that will make people who don't want to do BG but feel they are forced to in order to get the gear. Getting to challenge other players across all the servers is not enough? "blue server players not having a reason to go"...i think they are going for the wrong reasons and half of those "blue" players are probably your afk'ers.

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM

03-03-2010, 01:48 PM

It's not that complicated, just put in a mechanic to auto afk people within 3-5 minutes of no keyboard/mouse activity (already part of the client), when the afk flag goes up, they leave the bg, and can't requeue for half an hour or so. 3-5 minute leeway should be sufficient to take into account the odd r/l "I have to do something real quick" situations, if it's not then you should afk out or not queue anyways.You can't make it so AFKing in a BG never happens, you have to be realistic about that. People in general will find ways to be lazy no matter what you do, but you can minimize it as much as possible without doing stupid crap like captchas. The internet needs less captchas, not more <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you ended up making the rewards only useable in BGs it won't stop people from playing them. I'd be perfectly happy with it only working in a BG (or on a pvp server). Really, there's no need for it to work on a PvE server. It won't discourage people on "blue" servers from going, I play on a "blue" server and would be fine with that change. It SHOULD work on PvP servers regardless though, because that's what the gear is for, PvP. Plenty of my guild does it just because it's fun, not necessarily to get the gear, which is probably pretty common for a lot of other people as well, enough that the population in BGs won't be affected. The one saving grace is that the BGs are cross server, so there's a pretty big pool of people to pull from for participants.

Hawkmoons

03-03-2010, 02:18 PM

I think the Captcha Idea is not a bad one, but make activate due to 3-4 people flagin the player and then if they do not respond boot them with trechery.

Ahlana

03-03-2010, 06:17 PM

Just got out a BG with 4 people AFKing.. cant vote them out if you n eed 3...

Crismorn

03-03-2010, 06:40 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just got out a BG with 4 people AFKing.. cant vote them out if you n eed 3...</blockquote>And so it begins

Gaige

03-03-2010, 07:01 PM

Never saw that coming... oh wait.

Wytie

03-03-2010, 07:11 PM

Not like it matters at that point, cause you never really had a chance to win that match anyway with that many losers who dont care.

Ahlana

03-03-2010, 07:31 PM

<cite>Paill@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not like it matters at that point, cause you never really had a chance to win that match anyway with that many losers who dont care.</blockquote>This is a true story

Shorcon

03-03-2010, 08:31 PM

This is a problem that has always and still to this day plaques wow. When you add the report afker and afkers get kicked due to being reported you end up with people who abuse the afk vote. When you implament a vote afker that shows when the player is inactive for a period of time they will start move botting. ie. step forward every minute or so. When you add do some damage or no tokens they play the first few seconds with abandon lookin for something to hit or heal and................ the list goes on and on. The only true solution is manualy GM moderating random games and watching the afkers. When they are found to actualy be afk. Give a warning. Real life calls sometimes and peeps leave the keyboard to take care of it. If they are found continuously afk ban them for 1 month. It only takes one GM and at random times to do this as part of thier already packed day and will be effective when people cant play the most addicting thing thats happened to eq2 since release.

gdawg311

03-03-2010, 09:01 PM

easiest and most efficient solution would be no tokens for the losing team.... play your game get good, get rewarded...soe is rewarding people that fail so hard at this game. its no wonder they cant succeed in anything in game or in rl.

Crismorn

03-03-2010, 09:32 PM

<cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>easiest and most efficient solution would be no tokens for the losing team.... play your game get good, get rewarded...soe is rewarding people that fail so hard at this game. its no wonder they cant succeed in anything in game or in rl.</blockquote>/agreeRewarding players for this type of activity will be what wrecks Battlegrounds, not the lack of interest as so many believe

Neskonlith

03-03-2010, 09:42 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just got out a BG with 4 people AFKing.. cant vote them out if you n eed 3...</blockquote>Need a GM to drop in and Ban-hammer players like that. Banned cheaters = no problems!

Rothgar

03-03-2010, 09:45 PM

How is the AFK voting going today? I've checked the logs and see that people are using it successfully, so hopefully its cutting down on the AFK problem. Sure, there will be some edge cases like someone 4-boxing a group and going afk, but we can try to handle those on a case-by-case basis which should discourage people from doing it.

lollipop

03-03-2010, 09:51 PM

nm =p

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM

03-03-2010, 10:52 PM

<cite>lollipop wrote:</cite><blockquote>nm =p</blockquote>bleh you changed it before I could respond to getting pwnt while boxing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I've boxed my warden in BGs, it was hella hard, but I had a lot of fun, didn't do too bad either <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Neihn

03-03-2010, 11:06 PM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>easiest and most efficient solution would be no tokens for the losing team.... play your game get good, get rewarded...soe is rewarding people that fail so hard at this game. its no wonder they cant succeed in anything in game or in rl.</blockquote>/agreeRewarding players for this type of activity will be what wrecks Battlegrounds, not the lack of interest as so many believe</blockquote>No reward for not winning would kill Battlegrounds faster. I know me on a Blue server would have no intention of going in there knowing i have a good chance of getting a badly unmatched PUG where chances of winning are slim and waste 20 minutes of my time for nothing.I think other issues in Battlegrounds need worked out now that we at least have a voting system which yes still is flawed but I can live with it what I hate is that in a span of less then 2 minutes a battle in ganak can end because they allow flag carriers to use run buffs. And the responses of well root or stun doesnt work to well because in order for melee classes to stun they have to be in melee range which is difficult if your running at 20% but the other person is at 70+%, Same goes for roots at that speed its very easy to get out of range quickly. When someone has the flags it should be as though they are in combat and speed buffs should be suspended. I also have noticed more people are capturing a flag going back to their base and just hanging out on the very top of their building above their flag if their flag is gone. Very hard to get up there and knock them off.

Armawk

03-03-2010, 11:39 PM

gdawg311

03-04-2010, 12:36 AM

<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>easiest and most efficient solution would be no tokens for the losing team.... play your game get good, get rewarded...soe is rewarding people that fail so hard at this game. its no wonder they cant succeed in anything in game or in rl.</blockquote>/agreeRewarding players for this type of activity will be what wrecks Battlegrounds, not the lack of interest as so many believe</blockquote>Look we all know that you think newer players, or those who arent familiar with PvP or whatever exist to provide someone for you to kill for tokens all day, but you might have to recognise that unlike on a PvP server, on BGs they have the option of just not playing that game, which is what they will do rather than be farm fodder for gankers.If you want to have anyone to play against then you will have to acknowedge that they too will need some reason to take part and some progression method.</blockquote>then just give all the carebear QQing newbs full sets of gear and be done with it. then we can stop giving them tokens when they still continue to lose and can't figure out why they are still dying with full pee v pee gearz.

Armawk

03-04-2010, 12:54 AM

<cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>then just give all the carebear QQing newbs full sets of gear and be done with it. then we can stop giving them tokens when they still continue to lose and can't figure out why they are still dying with full pee v pee gearz.</blockquote>Oh dear, you forgot to say bluebies or tell us to L2P.I actually enjoy battlegrounds and might very well play them with no loss reward.. I guess I won 1/3 of my rounds so far so no biggie for me. Not everyone is an ex PvPer who doesnt care if they lose though. Id like to have more people to play with than just PvPers , hardcore guildies and indestructible old farts like me.

Crismorn

03-04-2010, 04:31 AM

<cite>Neihn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>easiest and most efficient solution would be no tokens for the losing team.... play your game get good, get rewarded...soe is rewarding people that fail so hard at this game. its no wonder they cant succeed in anything in game or in rl.</blockquote>/agreeRewarding players for this type of activity will be what wrecks Battlegrounds, not the lack of interest as so many believe</blockquote>No reward for not winning would kill Battlegrounds faster. I know me on a Blue server would have no intention of going in there knowing i have a good chance of getting a badly unmatched PUG where chances of winning are slim and waste 20 minutes of my time for nothing.I think other issues in Battlegrounds need worked out now that we at least have a voting system which yes still is flawed but I can live with it what I hate is that in a span of less then 2 minutes a battle in ganak can end because they allow flag carriers to use run buffs. And the responses of well root or stun doesnt work to well because in order for melee classes to stun they have to be in melee range which is difficult if your running at 20% but the other person is at 70+%, Same goes for roots at that speed its very easy to get out of range quickly. When someone has the flags it should be as though they are in combat and speed buffs should be suspended. I also have noticed more people are capturing a flag going back to their base and just hanging out on the very top of their building above their flag if their flag is gone. Very hard to get up there and knock them off.</blockquote>Then you would not get the gear.The rewards are in place, the incentive to care about winning over losing are not.Looking at how you get 3 shards for winning and 1 for losing looks great on paper, but it practice you get what we have right now with the afk/not trying crowd laughing their butt off how they can once again go an entire year getting heroic+ rewards for little to no effort "grey shard runs rd2."

Neihn

03-04-2010, 04:37 AM

<cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neihn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>easiest and most efficient solution would be no tokens for the losing team.... play your game get good, get rewarded...soe is rewarding people that fail so hard at this game. its no wonder they cant succeed in anything in game or in rl.</blockquote>/agreeRewarding players for this type of activity will be what wrecks Battlegrounds, not the lack of interest as so many believe</blockquote>No reward for not winning would kill Battlegrounds faster. I know me on a Blue server would have no intention of going in there knowing i have a good chance of getting a badly unmatched PUG where chances of winning are slim and waste 20 minutes of my time for nothing.I think other issues in Battlegrounds need worked out now that we at least have a voting system which yes still is flawed but I can live with it what I hate is that in a span of less then 2 minutes a battle in ganak can end because they allow flag carriers to use run buffs. And the responses of well root or stun doesnt work to well because in order for melee classes to stun they have to be in melee range which is difficult if your running at 20% but the other person is at 70+%, Same goes for roots at that speed its very easy to get out of range quickly. When someone has the flags it should be as though they are in combat and speed buffs should be suspended. I also have noticed more people are capturing a flag going back to their base and just hanging out on the very top of their building above their flag if their flag is gone. Very hard to get up there and knock them off.</blockquote>Then you would not get the gear.The rewards are in place, the incentive to care about winning over losing are not.Looking at how you get 3 shards for winning and 1 for losing looks great on paper, but it practice you get what we have right now with the afk/not trying crowd laughing their butt off how they can once again go an entire year getting heroic+ rewards for little to no effort "grey shard runs rd2."</blockquote>yes there are issues with AFKing but the solution is not to punish everyone. Why should I be punished for working my butt of to try to win when others went afk or just gave up? Give me a GOOD answer to my question.

TheSpin

03-04-2010, 04:39 AM

<cite>Neihn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>easiest and most efficient solution would be no tokens for the losing team.... play your game get good, get rewarded...soe is rewarding people that fail so hard at this game. its no wonder they cant succeed in anything in game or in rl.</blockquote>/agreeRewarding players for this type of activity will be what wrecks Battlegrounds, not the lack of interest as so many believe</blockquote>No reward for not winning would kill Battlegrounds faster. I know me on a Blue server would have no intention of going in there knowing i have a good chance of getting a badly unmatched PUG where chances of winning are slim and waste 20 minutes of my time for nothing.I think other issues in Battlegrounds need worked out now that we at least have a voting system which yes still is flawed but I can live with it what I hate is that in a span of less then 2 minutes a battle in ganak can end because they allow flag carriers to use run buffs. And the responses of well root or stun doesnt work to well because in order for melee classes to stun they have to be in melee range which is difficult if your running at 20% but the other person is at 70+%, Same goes for roots at that speed its very easy to get out of range quickly. When someone has the flags it should be as though they are in combat and speed buffs should be suspended. I also have noticed more people are capturing a flag going back to their base and just hanging out on the very top of their building above their flag if their flag is gone. Very hard to get up there and knock them off.</blockquote>Even though this isn't the point of the thread, I have to say I agree with you when it comes to the runspeed stuff. I play a brigand and can boost my runspeed up to like 130%, which of course caps at 100% but if I get a snare etc, it takes it from the 130% value so it takes multiple snares to slow me down much. Flag carriers really should be slower runners.I highly disagree with you on your other point. If both flags are in the other team's hands that's when the game actually becomes fun.

Neihn

03-04-2010, 04:46 AM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I highly disagree with you on your other point. If both flags are in the other team's hands that's when the game actually becomes fun.</blockquote>I just brought those up as other issues that they need to start considering while we see how well the AFK voting goes. What other point are you referring to? I have no issue with both flags being under 1 team control I have issues with the fact that you can get up on the outpost walls (the wall right above where the flag spawns in the base and be out of reach. Your only hope of getting to someone in that spot is if you can get a caster to stay alive long enough to nuke em down providing the caster does not get a "Can not see target" message. Which is what happend to us in the few times i have seen this.

Crismorn

03-04-2010, 07:23 AM

<cite>Neihn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Neihn@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Crismorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>gdawg311 wrote:</cite><blockquote>easiest and most efficient solution would be no tokens for the losing team.... play your game get good, get rewarded...soe is rewarding people that fail so hard at this game. its no wonder they cant succeed in anything in game or in rl.</blockquote>/agreeRewarding players for this type of activity will be what wrecks Battlegrounds, not the lack of interest as so many believe</blockquote>No reward for not winning would kill Battlegrounds faster. I know me on a Blue server would have no intention of going in there knowing i have a good chance of getting a badly unmatched PUG where chances of winning are slim and waste 20 minutes of my time for nothing.I think other issues in Battlegrounds need worked out now that we at least have a voting system which yes still is flawed but I can live with it what I hate is that in a span of less then 2 minutes a battle in ganak can end because they allow flag carriers to use run buffs. And the responses of well root or stun doesnt work to well because in order for melee classes to stun they have to be in melee range which is difficult if your running at 20% but the other person is at 70+%, Same goes for roots at that speed its very easy to get out of range quickly. When someone has the flags it should be as though they are in combat and speed buffs should be suspended. I also have noticed more people are capturing a flag going back to their base and just hanging out on the very top of their building above their flag if their flag is gone. Very hard to get up there and knock them off.</blockquote>Then you would not get the gear.The rewards are in place, the incentive to care about winning over losing are not.Looking at how you get 3 shards for winning and 1 for losing looks great on paper, but it practice you get what we have right now with the afk/not trying crowd laughing their butt off how they can once again go an entire year getting heroic+ rewards for little to no effort "grey shard runs rd2."</blockquote>yes there are issues with AFKing but the solution is not to punish everyone. Why should I be punished for working my butt of to try to win when others went afk or just gave up? Give me a GOOD answer to my question.</blockquote>What you see as a punishment I see as an incentive to play and win

Torrin

03-05-2010, 12:28 AM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>How is the AFK voting going today? I've checked the logs and see that people are using it successfully, so hopefully its cutting down on the AFK problem. Sure, there will be some edge cases like someone 4-boxing a group and going afk, but we can try to handle those on a case-by-case basis which should discourage people from doing it.</blockquote>So far it's of no help. Come up with something more automated please.Especially noticable in the 24man BGs you get people that will hide on ledges or fly and faefall jump from the disk to some obscene place and just sit there. And it is a detriment to the already skewed match-making system. I just did a 24man BG with 5 people afk. 2 of them were 2 of our 5 healers. 1 of the 5 afkers was also the Raid Leader so the groups didn't get reformed at all.2 AFKers i've had the unlucky pleasure of having in our raid the last 3 24man BGs i've done. And they always hide on ledges and the times I did call them out they said I was lying ran to the nearest opposing team member they could find attacked and died just to not be kicked.I understand the 1 token for losing, sometimes you get some really bad group match-ups or a random pug vs a geared premade.. it happens. but please find a better system of getting rid of the AFKers that offer no help at all to their team. if they are AFK for 2 minutes, disconnect them is an idea. Sure they may setup macros to spam jump or whatever but use the same system you have setup for it now, they have to take action against the opposing team.I mean 24man is only 20minutes long, 2 minutes is a lot of time in a 20minute match. Klak is generally what 7-10mins? Not done a lot of Ganak but that one too i've seen AFKers, more specifically ones that get up on the ledges of their own bases and just do nothing or suicide and sit on the revive ledge etc.

Thunndar316

03-05-2010, 12:49 AM

Seeing as how you got no chance in this unless you are a freaking mage I could care less.I will make it a point to /afk as much as possible just to help ruin this garbage

Rothgar

03-05-2010, 02:27 AM

<cite>Torrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>How is the AFK voting going today? I've checked the logs and see that people are using it successfully, so hopefully its cutting down on the AFK problem. Sure, there will be some edge cases like someone 4-boxing a group and going afk, but we can try to handle those on a case-by-case basis which should discourage people from doing it.</blockquote>So far it's of no help. Come up with something more automated please.Especially noticable in the 24man BGs you get people that will hide on ledges or fly and faefall jump from the disk to some obscene place and just sit there. And it is a detriment to the already skewed match-making system. I just did a 24man BG with 5 people afk. 2 of them were 2 of our 5 healers. 1 of the 5 afkers was also the Raid Leader so the groups didn't get reformed at all.2 AFKers i've had the unlucky pleasure of having in our raid the last 3 24man BGs i've done. And they always hide on ledges and the times I did call them out they said I was lying ran to the nearest opposing team member they could find attacked and died just to not be kicked.I understand the 1 token for losing, sometimes you get some really bad group match-ups or a random pug vs a geared premade.. it happens. but please find a better system of getting rid of the AFKers that offer no help at all to their team. if they are AFK for 2 minutes, disconnect them is an idea. Sure they may setup macros to spam jump or whatever but use the same system you have setup for it now, they have to take action against the opposing team.I mean 24man is only 20minutes long, 2 minutes is a lot of time in a 20minute match. Klak is generally what 7-10mins? Not done a lot of Ganak but that one too i've seen AFKers, more specifically ones that get up on the ledges of their own bases and just do nothing or suicide and sit on the revive ledge etc.</blockquote>I'm not opposed to an automatic kick, but after a longer timer. It would also need to warn the player before the kick occurred. We can also set different kick timers in each match because like you said, if you aren't doing something for 60 seconds in a Gears match, thats a pretty long time. But in Smuggler's Den, there's a lot of running around so you'd expect more time to be given.Our customer service team is now receiving a list every morning of each player that was booted for being AFK and how many times this happened. They also have the ability to revoke your battlegrounds privileges permanently.Give it a little time, we will put an end to this behavior.

gdawg311

03-05-2010, 05:01 AM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our customer service team is now receiving a list every morning of each player that was booted for being AFK and how many times this happened. They also have the ability to revoke your battlegrounds privileges permanently.Give it a little time, we will put an end to this behavior.</blockquote>Pwnd

LivelyHound

03-05-2010, 09:35 AM

Good cos its getting out of hand, 1 min into gears and people stop trying so you have 4 on 6 or 3 on 6 and the you just have to wait arou for 5 mins for the points to rack up <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Malicorp

03-05-2010, 10:07 AM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not opposed to an automatic kick, but after a longer timer.</blockquote>I'm not certain why it has to be a longer timer? With the first round of database processing changes you all instituted, you boot people who are afk in instances after a certain time. I assume that being afk doesn't necessarily mean "combat" action, but rather any action which sends information to the server? So by virtue of just running 1 step ever __ seconds or minute, there will never be any lengthy inactivity.I can't think of a scenario in a BG which would mandate an active player standing motionless, never panning their camera, casting, etc for an extended enough time to kick a player at the keyboard.I believe that a 30-45s warning, then a 1 minute or 1.5 minute boot is completely reasonable for any BG.

Hecula

03-05-2010, 02:29 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not opposed to an automatic kick, but after a longer timer. It would also need to warn the player before the kick occurred. We can also set different kick timers in each match because like you said, if you aren't doing something for 60 seconds in a Gears match, thats a pretty long time. But in Smuggler's Den, there's a lot of running around so you'd expect more time to be given.Our customer service team is now receiving a list every morning of each player that was booted for being AFK and how many times this happened. They also have the ability to revoke your battlegrounds privileges permanently.Give it a little time, we will put an end to this behavior.</blockquote>Need to be able to vote people AFK without being in close proximity to them. Too easy for people to hide in the geometry specifially in the 12 and 24 man raid zones. Once voted it should start a timer for kick and it should be much harder to get off of that timer - not just casting a few spells or dying once. Also, I'm not sure what the penalty is for being voted off, but it should be pretty hefty to discourage this - perhaps a 24 hour ban the first offence, followed by 48 then 72 then a week, a month then perma ban.

Rothgar

03-05-2010, 02:46 PM

<cite>Debase@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not opposed to an automatic kick, but after a longer timer.</blockquote>I'm not certain why it has to be a longer timer? With the first round of database processing changes you all instituted, you boot people who are afk in instances after a certain time. I assume that being afk doesn't necessarily mean "combat" action, but rather any action which sends information to the server? So by virtue of just running 1 step ever __ seconds or minute, there will never be any lengthy inactivity.I can't think of a scenario in a BG which would mandate an active player standing motionless, never panning their camera, casting, etc for an extended enough time to kick a player at the keyboard.I believe that a 30-45s warning, then a 1 minute or 1.5 minute boot is completely reasonable for any BG.</blockquote>The AFK calculations we use for booting you out of an instance are completely different from battlegrounds. In battlegrounds we don't count movement and panning your camera as activity or people could get around it very easily. Using our current activity triggers, if we auto-booted people after 1 minute, most of the team would probably be booted as they are running to a control point or defending the flag, etc. Exploiters will always take the path of least resistance. Even if we implemented some check that looked at their client movement, then they would just start using a script that moved them forward and backward every few seconds.

Malicorp

03-05-2010, 03:13 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>The AFK calculations we use for booting you out of an instance are completely different from battlegrounds. In battlegrounds we don't count movement and panning your camera as activity or people could get around it very easily. Using our current activity triggers, if we auto-booted people after 1 minute, most of the team would probably be booted as they are running to a control point or defending the flag, etc. Exploiters will always take the path of least resistance. Even if we implemented some check that looked at their client movement, then they would just start using a script that moved them forward and backward every few seconds.</blockquote>I concur that people will always find a means to take advantage of any system. That you don't base battlegrounds on movement at all leads me to wonder what the criteria could be. For example, in Smuggler's Run, I'm defending one of the flags by team controls from attackers. After killing off a couple enemy combatants, I wait for them or other to return. Time elapses without them returning, but because this flag is right next to their Team Base Spawn, its vulnerable. How long am I allowed to defend that post before having to abandon it in search of enemy combatants lest I be kicked for perceived inactivity?The point I'm trying to make is that depending on the situation, team play and strategy may be easily construed as inactivity depending on the AFK calculations. AFKers are absolutely a problem, but I'm not sure what strategy, if any, can instituted to prevent them from this behavior if they are willing to break the EULA and use a script or third party program to do it.

Kunaak

03-06-2010, 01:15 AM

have you guys considerd a simple score check too?theres no possible way to play a game that lasts 5-10 minutes, and come out with straight zeros across the board.

Jaffa Tamarin

03-06-2010, 01:32 PM

If you don't want people afk'ing and exploiting BG just for the tokens, don't put stuff on the BG merchants that people with no interest in PvP want for PvE and appearance gear.Give me an appearance armor set that looks like the BG armor, and I'll happily never set foot in these stupid zones.

Grumble69

03-06-2010, 02:26 PM

<cite>Skrat@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't want people afk'ing and exploiting BG just for the tokens, don't put stuff on the BG merchants that people with no interest in PvP want for PvE and appearance gear.Give me an appearance armor set that looks like the BG armor, and I'll happily never set foot in these stupid zones.</blockquote>Ummm no. I'm earning mine legitimately tyvm. I don't see why it matters whether I'm grouping PvE or BG to earn useable gear. For the record, lazy AFK people are going to find a way to get their stuff. If it's not BG, they'll just buy plat and loot rights in the PvE world. If anything, there's more safeguards in BG. At least there the player community has some say in flagging the losers. You can't do that in PvE.

Ahlana

03-06-2010, 02:30 PM

<cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skrat@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't want people afk'ing and exploiting BG just for the tokens, don't put stuff on the BG merchants that people with no interest in PvP want for PvE and appearance gear.Give me an appearance armor set that looks like the BG armor, and I'll happily never set foot in these stupid zones.</blockquote>Ummm no. I'm earning mine legitimately tyvm. I don't see why it matters whether I'm grouping PvE or BG to earn useable gear. For the record, lazy AFK people are going to find a way to get their stuff. If it's not BG, they'll just buy plat and loot rights in the PvE world. If anything, there's more safeguards in BG. At least there the player community has some say in flagging the losers. You can't do that in PvE.</blockquote>True story.. this whole excuse about BG being useable in PVE breeds this kind of stuff is BS. That would be like saying since you dislike raiding you should be able to stand in a raid so for a certain amount of time and then receive gear for doing nothing in there. I mean if they didn't make Raid Gear that is desireable for Heoric/Solo content than we wouldn't care but since they do we somehow deserve it for no work.. am I right??At least paying for raid gear means somewhere along the line they worked for the money (at least we all hope lol)

Armironhead

03-06-2010, 02:39 PM

<cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Torrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>How is the AFK voting going today? I've checked the logs and see that people are using it successfully, so hopefully its cutting down on the AFK problem. Sure, there will be some edge cases like someone 4-boxing a group and going afk, but we can try to handle those on a case-by-case basis which should discourage people from doing it.</blockquote>So far it's of no help. Come up with something more automated please.Especially noticable in the 24man BGs you get people that will hide on ledges or fly and faefall jump from the disk to some obscene place and just sit there. And it is a detriment to the already skewed match-making system. I just did a 24man BG with 5 people afk. 2 of them were 2 of our 5 healers. 1 of the 5 afkers was also the Raid Leader so the groups didn't get reformed at all.2 AFKers i've had the unlucky pleasure of having in our raid the last 3 24man BGs i've done. And they always hide on ledges and the times I did call them out they said I was lying ran to the nearest opposing team member they could find attacked and died just to not be kicked.I understand the 1 token for losing, sometimes you get some really bad group match-ups or a random pug vs a geared premade.. it happens. but please find a better system of getting rid of the AFKers that offer no help at all to their team. if they are AFK for 2 minutes, disconnect them is an idea. Sure they may setup macros to spam jump or whatever but use the same system you have setup for it now, they have to take action against the opposing team.I mean 24man is only 20minutes long, 2 minutes is a lot of time in a 20minute match. Klak is generally what 7-10mins? Not done a lot of Ganak but that one too i've seen AFKers, more specifically ones that get up on the ledges of their own bases and just do nothing or suicide and sit on the revive ledge etc.</blockquote>I'm not opposed to an automatic kick, but after a longer timer. It would also need to warn the player before the kick occurred. We can also set different kick timers in each match because like you said, if you aren't doing something for 60 seconds in a Gears match, thats a pretty long time. But in Smuggler's Den, there's a lot of running around so you'd expect more time to be given.Our customer service team is now receiving a list every morning of each player that was booted for being AFK and how many times this happened. They also have the ability to revoke your battlegrounds privileges permanently.Give it a little time, we will put an end to this behavior.</blockquote>With the voting -- could you please have a message flash to the grp and raid members saying that so and so has gone afk and then give them the option to vote so and so off the "island"? Thus far I have seen people hiding their toons on the sides towers and in nooks and craneys -- it is annoying having to hunt down afkers and thereby taking away from game play. If the system knows if someone is afk it should be able to broadcast that to the players, and allow voting that way.

Armironhead

03-06-2010, 02:41 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skrat@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't want people afk'ing and exploiting BG just for the tokens, don't put stuff on the BG merchants that people with no interest in PvP want for PvE and appearance gear.Give me an appearance armor set that looks like the BG armor, and I'll happily never set foot in these stupid zones.</blockquote>Ummm no. I'm earning mine legitimately tyvm. I don't see why it matters whether I'm grouping PvE or BG to earn useable gear. For the record, lazy AFK people are going to find a way to get their stuff. If it's not BG, they'll just buy plat and loot rights in the PvE world. If anything, there's more safeguards in BG. At least there the player community has some say in flagging the losers. You can't do that in PvE.</blockquote>True story.. this whole excuse about BG being useable in PVE breeds this kind of stuff is BS. That would be like saying since you dislike raiding you should be able to stand in a raid so for a certain amount of time and then receive gear for doing nothing in there. I mean if they didn't make Raid Gear that is desireable for Heoric/Solo content than we wouldn't care but since they do we somehow deserve it for no work.. am I right??At least paying for raid gear means somewhere along the line they worked for the money (at least we all hope lol)</blockquote>how about remove not trade off everything and free the economy -- that way people who dont want to play but want the gear can simply buy it.

Ahlana

03-06-2010, 02:48 PM

<cite>Armironhead@Vox wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skrat@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't want people afk'ing and exploiting BG just for the tokens, don't put stuff on the BG merchants that people with no interest in PvP want for PvE and appearance gear.Give me an appearance armor set that looks like the BG armor, and I'll happily never set foot in these stupid zones.</blockquote>Ummm no. I'm earning mine legitimately tyvm. I don't see why it matters whether I'm grouping PvE or BG to earn useable gear. For the record, lazy AFK people are going to find a way to get their stuff. If it's not BG, they'll just buy plat and loot rights in the PvE world. If anything, there's more safeguards in BG. At least there the player community has some say in flagging the losers. You can't do that in PvE.</blockquote>True story.. this whole excuse about BG being useable in PVE breeds this kind of stuff is BS. That would be like saying since you dislike raiding you should be able to stand in a raid so for a certain amount of time and then receive gear for doing nothing in there. I mean if they didn't make Raid Gear that is desireable for Heoric/Solo content than we wouldn't care but since they do we somehow deserve it for no work.. am I right??At least paying for raid gear means somewhere along the line they worked for the money (at least we all hope lol)</blockquote>how about remove not trade off everything and free the economy -- that way people who dont want to play but want the gear can simply buy it.</blockquote>That would be fine with me. I believe people that amassed tons of plats without raids (or buying it) have probably put more actual work into the game than raiders/pvpers and thus should be able to freely buy anything they want. But then of course you don't have that nice invisible line that seperates everyone

Jaffa Tamarin

03-06-2010, 02:56 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skrat@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you don't want people afk'ing and exploiting BG just for the tokens, don't put stuff on the BG merchants that people with no interest in PvP want for PvE and appearance gear.Give me an appearance armor set that looks like the BG armor, and I'll happily never set foot in these stupid zones.</blockquote>Ummm no. I'm earning mine legitimately tyvm. I don't see why it matters whether I'm grouping PvE or BG to earn useable gear. For the record, lazy AFK people are going to find a way to get their stuff. If it's not BG, they'll just buy plat and loot rights in the PvE world. If anything, there's more safeguards in BG. At least there the player community has some say in flagging the losers. You can't do that in PvE.</blockquote>True story.. this whole excuse about BG being useable in PVE breeds this kind of stuff is BS. That would be like saying since you dislike raiding you should be able to stand in a raid so for a certain amount of time and then receive gear for doing nothing in there. I mean if they didn't make Raid Gear that is desireable for Heoric/Solo content than we wouldn't care but since they do we somehow deserve it for no work.. am I right??At least paying for raid gear means somewhere along the line they worked for the money (at least we all hope lol)</blockquote>What you think should happen, or what people deserve to get, is irrelevant. What actually will happen is defined by what is possible within the game. If people can log in to BG, do little or nothing, and eventually earn enough tokens to buy the gear they want, then that is what some people will choose to do.You can't force people to make any kind of attempt to become good at PvP if all they want is enough tokens to buy the gear for PvE. And SoE can't not give tokens to the losing players, because that would shut anyone out who isn't already geared up for PvP.

Ahlana

03-06-2010, 03:12 PM

<cite>Skrat@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>What you think should happen, or what people deserve to get, is irrelevant. What actually will happen is defined by what is possible within the game. If people can log in to BG, do little or nothing, and eventually earn enough tokens to buy the gear they want, then that is what some people will choose to do.You can't force people to make any kind of attempt to become good at PvP if all they want is enough tokens to buy the gear for PvE. And SoE can't not give tokens to the losing players, because that would shut anyone out who isn't already geared up for PvP.</blockquote>They can however improve the AFK and doing nothing checks to (hopefully) the point where either they give up or at least put in a little effort which is better than none at all /shrugThe entitlement mentality has really gotten out of hand with the last few xpacs and it is only getting worse.

Iskandar

03-06-2010, 03:41 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>True story.. this whole excuse about BG being useable in PVE breeds this kind of stuff is BS. That would be like saying since you dislike raiding you should be able to stand in a raid so for a certain amount of time and then receive gear for doing nothing in there. I mean if they didn't make Raid Gear that is desireable for Heoric/Solo content than we wouldn't care but since they do we somehow deserve it for no work.. am I right??At least paying for raid gear means somewhere along the line they worked for the money (at least we all hope lol)</blockquote>Ahlana, the concern many have is that the ease of gaining BG gear (it doesn't get much easier than going AFK for 10 minutes) will cripple PvE grouping and make some PvE content pointless.To use an old analogy: imagine if the original and un-altered Najena's Ring of Readiness were available as an ultra rare drop off a mob at the end of an instance AND as a BG item for 30/30 tokens... who do you think would have that item first: the wizard who hits the Tower every day for six months and prays to the RNG, or the wizard who goes afk in a BG for a few weeks? Who would then want to spend all that time hitting the Tower and banging their heads when it didn't drop when they could just snag some tokens while they chatted with friends or watched TV or something? Now apply this analogy to EVERY TSO instance drop, or even EVERY SF instance drop.The ease of aquisition makes some PvE content pointless, since the loot rewards are comparable -- and sadly, in this case it is all about the loot. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> That is the concern many had in Beta and still have today.Now, if that item is available in both and requires just as much time and effort in both, that's fine -- there is no "easy street" for upgrades. But when one path so clearly outshines the others, then some balancing needs to be made. This is why many feel stronger PvE limits should be placed on BG gear, and why some still advocate removing the token reward for failure.The new AFK vote is a GREAT first step, but as we can see from the comments here it's not going to be the ONLY step that needs to be taken. Personally, I think the best next step would be to look at how other games have confronted this issue and consider implementing their strategies here (which I think is exactly what Rothgar and the others are doing). Hopefully, within a month or two, this entire discussion will be moot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />I'm all for new content, whether it be a PvP Battleground or a PvE instance -- the more content we have the more fun we can have, and the more players we can draw to our game, all regardless of whether we play PvE or PvP. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /> But I want that content to be fair to EVERYONE, whether they choose to participate in it or not -- and I want that content to bring more life to the game, not suck the life from other areas for its own growth. Balance and fairness is what will make this fun for everyone who plays AND give both the content and the game itself longevity.

Jaffa Tamarin

03-06-2010, 03:50 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>The entitlement mentality has really gotten out of hand with the last few xpacs and it is only getting worse.</blockquote>How dare people be annoyed that after five years of playing (and paying for) a PvE game, suddenly the best-looking armor is only available through PvP. </sarcasm>

Ahlana

03-06-2010, 03:50 PM

@IskandarI agree to a point. The point though is a big one.. the PVP armor is not as good for PVE armor is.. as PVE armor is.. Not every Blue Stat or Proc on PVP armor works in PVE, no crit mit on it ect... People are just blindly looking at the gear and going OMG its awesome.. without truely looking at it. The jewlery being the exception as it is great both ways.. But the armor other than its unique look is better suited for BGs/PVP than dungeon diving and people will find this out.Does it rival "some" gear.. sure it does, could you PVE in it? Sure you can, I dare say some classes better than others IE DPS over Tank classes. A tank would want solid PVE gear over the PVP gear.And heck most T4 TSO gear is better to keep equiped than to get the BG stuff<cite>Skrat@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>The entitlement mentality has really gotten out of hand with the last few xpacs and it is only getting worse.</blockquote>How dare people be annoyed that after five years of playing (and paying for) a PvE game, suddenly the best-looking armor is only available through PvP. </blockquote>Please if it didn't look the way it did they would still be doing it.. I bet it is a very small group that is doing it "just" for looks. Esspecially since you are pretty much the only one taking that route of arguement and everyone else is saying that it is indeed because the gear itself is just as good/better than PVE heoric stuff (ie nothing about looks) and that people wouldn't be doing it otherwise if the gear wasn't as good or not useable in PVE.

Jaffa Tamarin

03-06-2010, 04:09 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please if it didn't look the way it did they would still be doing it.. I bet it is a very small group that is doing it "just" for looks. Esspecially since you are pretty much the only one taking that route of arguement and everyone else is saying that it is indeed because the gear itself is just as good/better than PVE heoric stuff (ie nothing about looks) and that people wouldn't be doing it otherwise if the gear wasn't as good or not useable in PVE.</blockquote>I am talking about looks because that is what matters to me. The argument is the same whether you are talking about "better looks" or "better stats".