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Obzidian
11-23-2009, 08:26 AM
<p>The more the various races come up, the more I become interested in the lost or extinct or nearly extinct races of Norrath.  I figured it would be interesting to compose a list. </p> <p>Here's what I have so far.</p> <p><strong>Xulous - </strong>a race that co-existed with the dragons (defiled the dragons remains) and were eradicated in living form by Bertoxxulous in his ascension.  Undead versions can be seen in EQ live in the Crypt of Decay and Plane of Disease, where you fight the kings. </p> <p><strong>Jal'Raeth  -- </strong>not necessarily canon, but likely Rodcet Nife's race.  Lived in a corner of tunaria and were immortal and so obsessed with death that they constantly killed to explore it. </p> <p><strong>Leviathans, Turgans, Behemoths</strong> -- Not necessarily extinct, but nearly there.  Felt they were important to include in the list. Great beasts that have been hunted or domesticated to near extinction</p> <p><strong>Vah'Shir</strong> --  a feline race that evolved from the kerran on the moon of Luclin.  Most were presumably killed out when Luclin was destroyed.  Those remaining on Norrath interbred with Kerrans, thus removing Vah'Shir as a race. </p> <p><strong>Shissar </strong>- a serpentine race of extreme magical potential and intellect, vital in the history of the Doomsday calendar, offended the gods to such an extent that the gods tried to eradicate them and failed.  The Shissar escaped to the moon but were presumably lost with the destruction of Luclin.  Early shapers of Norrathian history.  Home city was Chelsith</p> <p><strong>Sul'Dal, Rin'Dal, Ara'Dal</strong> --  elves, possibly not a race unto their own, but more social classes.  Truth of their existence unknown, except that they were worshippers of Anashti'Sul</p><p><strong>Kedge</strong> -- aquatic race of fish-like people created by Prexus. They lived underwater in various locations, most notably Kedge Keep in Dagnor's Cauldron. They were extremely magical and hearty.</p><p><strong>Coldain Dwarves </strong>-- a race of hearty cold-dwelling dwarves that resided on Velious and are likely extinct.  They were known for having features that were paler features than other dwarven populations</p><p><strong>The Sphinxs</strong> -- an intelligent race of beings that are known for having griffon/lion bodies with the heads of humans.  While the can be found in Poet's Palace and the Shimmering Citadel and perhaps a few other limited locations, their wild populations are likely extinct.</p><p><strong>Kromrif & Kromzek Giants</strong> -- a population of giants that managed to escape the majority of the effects of the Curse of the Rathe on Rallos' creations by fleeing past the Frigid Barrier to Velious.  They are known for their paler features and the fact that they retained their intellect and culture after the curse.  Presumed extinct or lost, as other Velious races are. </p><p><strong>Othmir</strong> -- a race of sentient, tribal otter people that worshipped Prexus and resided in Cobalt Scar in Velious.  They were heavily hunted by various races for their fur.  Presumed lost or exctinct as other Velious races are. </p><p><strong>Chetari</strong> -- the race of rat people, shaped by Zlandicar when a Paebala approached him that resided in the Dragon Necropolis and served Zlandicar by defending and protecting his position in the necropolis (Zlandi was a cannibal). The Chetari enslaved the Paebala.  Presumed lost or exctinct as other Velious races are.</p><p><strong>Paebala</strong> -- the original race of rat people that resided in the Dragon Necropolis and served the dragons by protecting over the necropolis as their homeland.  They were enslaved the the Chetari and fought against them.  Presumed lost or exctinct as other Velious races are.</p><p><strong>Ydal </strong>-- the first dark elves, created from the blood of Innnoruuk combined in the Ewer of Sul'Dae.  Not much is known of the Ydal and those that exist on Norrath do so as spirits. </p><p><strong>Elddar Elves/Dal</strong> -- the original elven race created by Tunare that diverged into seperate elven populations.  Much of their history was lost with the fall of Takish'Hiz and their empire on Tunaria.  Presumed extinct or lost. </p><p><strong>Ankexfen </strong>-- the progenitor race of the goblins.  They were known for their intelligence, cunning, and magical prowess. When Rallos' creations were cursed, the Ankexfen recieved the brunt of the retribution and were exterminated. </p><p>Who else am I missing?</p><p>Edit:  added more races as per people's lists, and am including Velious races because Velious is presumed to be lost.</p>

Morghus
11-23-2009, 08:48 AM
<p>Hmm....The Kedge for one, and I think Dragons are steadily heading in that direction as well.</p>

Obzidian
11-23-2009, 08:54 AM
Doh! How could I have missed the Kedge! Thanks! Adding them to the list <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Saroc_Luclin
11-23-2009, 12:24 PM
<p>The Sphinx. (We see them in EQLive's TBS expansion, but they were in the original timeline in Rathe Mountains, as well as in PoTime. *edit* Actually , in EQ2 aren't there some Sphinx hanging around from the Ro expansion? There numbers are sparse in any case. Speaking of Plane of Time, the Shissar are 'stuck' in there as well. The Elddar Elves ('evolved'? into the High Elves and Wood Elves of today). Anaxefan (sp). One of Rallos's races punished the most severely after the Wars. Devolved/punished into the Goblin tribes. (which are still around of course) Coldain Dwarves and Kromrif Giants: Fates still unknown with the fate of Velious.</p>

Xalmat
11-23-2009, 02:22 PM
<p>The Othmir of Velious are certainly lost. Depending how they fared with Velious melting, they may even be extinct.</p>

Meirril
11-23-2009, 08:49 PM
<p>I'm suprised you didn't include the Ydal. While we don't know where to place them in the timeline, how they became extinct, or even if they really existed or not it is the race we suspect Mayong belongs to and no longer exists. They deserve an entry.</p><p>I wouldn't write the Othmir out just yet. Velious hasn't been re-explored so not having them around isn't unusual. Its too early to write off the Chitari as well.</p>

Meirril
11-23-2009, 08:52 PM
<p><cite>Obzidian wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>Xulous - </strong>a race that co-existed with the dragons (defiled the dragons remains) and were eradicated in living form by Bertoxxulous in his ascension.  Undead versions can be seen in EQ live in the Crypt of Decay and Plane of Disease, where you fight the kings. </p></blockquote><p>Umm...co-existed? Technically, arn't all of the current races co-existing with the dragons? Or are you saying they lived amongst the dragons? They pre-dated the dragons? Also, who made them? Were they even on Norrath or were they on a different planet? OoLS lore is generally refering to other planets. Only one small bit of Lore actually refers to Norrath and its a list of beings the Shadowmen have an interest in.</p>

Cusashorn
11-23-2009, 09:20 PM
<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Othmir of Velious are certainly lost. Depending how they fared with Velious melting, they may even be extinct.</p></blockquote><p>We don't know what has happened to Velious after it's melting and refreezing. We don't know the fates of *ANY* of the races on Velious yet, so I wouldn't write them off so fast.</p><p>The Vah'Shir... While I have said many times myself that they've become extinct, I think it should be worth mentioning that in a sense, they've only gone extinct by name alone. The Vah Shir down on Norrath became part of the Kerran's matriarchal society. Their genes continue on in modern day Kerrans. In a sense of speaking, they're still the Vah Shir, but they're also still Kerran. On the other hand, they're a new species altogether because they are physically neither Vah Shir of old, or Kerran of old (which we know still exist from pictures shown of the next expansion.)</p><p>I'm just kinda rambling there, but you can see what I'm trying to say, right?</p><p>I hope the Shissar are gone for good with no chance or hope of ever returning.</p>

Homeskillet
11-24-2009, 12:45 AM
<p>The Vah Shir were simply a more "elite" tribe of kerra, they were always still kerra just ultimately led a different lifestyle and were named for their leader Vah Kerrath. I do agree that they are for all intents and purposes "gone" but the interbreeding was not so much a blending of biology, but a melting of the Vah Shir culture into kerran society.</p>

Xalmat
11-24-2009, 12:48 AM
<p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir were simply a more "elite" tribe of kerra, they were always still kerra just ultimately led a different lifestyle and were named for their leader Vah Kerrath. I do agree that they are for all intents and purposes "gone" but the interbreeding was not so much a blending of biology, but a melting of the Vah Shir culture into kerran society.</p></blockquote><p>Except in EQ1 the Vah Shir were a completely different race.</p>

Vaedaer
11-24-2009, 02:06 AM
<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir were simply a more "elite" tribe of kerra, they were always still kerra just ultimately led a different lifestyle and were named for their leader Vah Kerrath. I do agree that they are for all intents and purposes "gone" but the interbreeding was not so much a blending of biology, but a melting of the Vah Shir culture into kerran society.</p></blockquote><p>Except in EQ1 the Vah Shir were a completely different race.</p></blockquote><p>They were still kerra, just they adapted to their new home and the later generations evolved, they just called themselves Vah Shirs because they  evolved and looked different, to Honor their formal tribe leader aaaand they lived the heck away and didn't knew how to  go back until the nexus was set xp</p><p>This all being my opinion not a fact XP</p>

Cusashorn
11-24-2009, 02:43 AM
<p>The Vah Shir have always been stated as being cousins to the Kerra. That word has always been just vague enough to count them as a different species, much the same as how we all have different species of [Removed for Content] Sapien on Earth. We're all still humans who can breed with each other regardless of whether we're Caucasian, Japanese, Aboriginal, Mexican, or what have you.</p>

Obzidian
11-24-2009, 03:21 AM
<p>Re:  Vah'Shir -- if elves can diverge into different populations that look different and we call different races, then so can kerrans (or Coldain dwarves or Kromrif Giants).  I'm of the opinion that the Vah'Shir were a population of kerrans that evolved on the moon to have a seperate culture and different appearance based upon the environment of Luclin.  They were seperated long enough to diverge.  Modern Kerrans would be a mixture of Vah'Shir and original Kerran genetics.  Vah'Shir as a seperate distinct race are gone as far as we know. </p><p>Re Xulous:  They were on Norrath from all lore points.  The story of them comes from Tanaanite collections in EQ2.  When I said co-existed, I meant likely in the Age of Scale.  <em>"The <span >Xulous</span>, through their adoration and reverence of their rotting kings, <span style="text-decoration: underline;">their defilement of the dead children of Veeshan, and their dependence on the deaths of dragons for the expansion of their kingdoms </span>did unknowingly bring a powerful and ancient evil to Norrath."  </em>From the EQ2 books</p><p><em>"The crypt was originally built upon Antonica in an age long past to house the dead kings of a long dead ancient race. That race called it Lxanvom that means in their tongue, 'Kings Rest'. As they filled it with their dead royalty a festering evil began to take over in the lower bowels of the crypt. . .Bertoxxulous took great pride in the fact that he had wiped out this civilization. He took his minions from the land and also summoned the entirety of the crypt to his home in the Plane of Disease. It is said that the form that Bertoxxulous favors when he visits the crypt is a twisted version of the long dead race he wiped out ages ago."</em>  From EQ PoP website lore</p><p>You're right, I forgot the Ydal.  I was sleepy and thought I'd included them.  Must have left them out when I transfered them from word doc to website post. </p><p>I'll update with the races mentioned.  Thanks.</p>

Meirril
11-24-2009, 03:57 AM
<p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir were simply a more "elite" tribe of kerra, they were always still kerra just ultimately led a different lifestyle and were named for their leader Vah Kerrath. I do agree that they are for all intents and purposes "gone" but the interbreeding was not so much a blending of biology, but a melting of the Vah Shir culture into kerran society.</p></blockquote><p>Well, all the Vah Shir were Lion/Tiger types that had a tall, heavy muscular build. Kera were shorter and sleaker. They were also more like panthers. While the two tribes had a common ancestry, its a bit like saying Barbarians and Humans are the same race. The two tribes had distinctly different looks and cultures. You could easily tell the two appart at first glance.</p><p>Today's Kerran share traits with both tribes. It would be interesting to go to the Kera Isles and actually see a difference between Kera and Kerrans! I seriously doubt that will be the case, but it would be very interesting to mean "pure blood" Kera that actually look different than player models.</p><p>p.s. I'm spelling the old model Kera this way because that's what I remember. I could be totally off and it was spelt Kerra. Just too lazy to look it up on Allakzam at the moment.</p>

Kamimura
11-24-2009, 04:33 AM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>On the other hand, they're a new species altogether because they are physically neither Vah Shir of old, or Kerran of old (which we know still exist from pictures shown of the next expansion.)</blockquote><p>The Kerra I saw in those shots looked the same as the Kerra player race. Am I misunderstanding you here, or have I missed some pictures somewhere?</p>

Cusashorn
11-24-2009, 05:26 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>On the other hand, they're a new species altogether because they are physically neither Vah Shir of old, or Kerran of old (which we know still exist from pictures shown of the next expansion.)</blockquote><p>The Kerra I saw in those shots looked the same as the Kerra player race. Am I misunderstanding you here, or have I missed some pictures somewhere?</p></blockquote><p>Ahh, that is my mistake. I thought I heard someone mention the old Kerra were returning. Taking a 2nd look at the video, it looked like the regular Kerra we have now.</p>

Homeskillet
11-24-2009, 10:10 AM
<p><cite>Vaedaer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir were simply a more "elite" tribe of kerra, they were always still kerra just ultimately led a different lifestyle and were named for their leader Vah Kerrath. I do agree that they are for all intents and purposes "gone" but the interbreeding was not so much a blending of biology, but a melting of the Vah Shir culture into kerran society.</p></blockquote><p>Except in EQ1 the Vah Shir were a completely different race.</p></blockquote><p>They were still kerra, just they adapted to their new home and the later generations evolved, they just called themselves Vah Shirs because they  evolved and looked different, to Honor their formal tribe leader aaaand they lived the heck away and didn't knew how to  go back until the nexus was set xp</p><p>This all being my opinion not a fact XP</p></blockquote><p>No that pretty much is the fact right there. They were the nobility tribe of Kerra, they were performing a ceremony with Vah Kerrath, having taken the smartest, strongest, quickest of the "Shir" with him, when they were "blown" to Luclin during the Erudite Civil War. They were always kind of the elites of their kind because of a different lifestyle. They may have been considered a different "race" in respects to the same way an Asian (Indian, Korea, Japanese take your pick) person looks generally different from a Caucasian person but they are still both human beings.</p><p>The primary reason they looked like tigers and lions and all kinds of awesome in EQ1 is chalked up to them being a player race (and probably to please furries *shudder*), otherwise they may have looked like...well like EQ2 Kerrans, like humans with cat heads and tails. Yes, part of it was lore, but they were dolled up for that reason. I'm 99% sure the "Sarnak" were handled the way they were as a player race out of the devs saving themselves from designing a new skeleton for armor or using the npc sarnak model for it (which looked much cooler). The Vah Shir ended up living under much harsher and alien conditions than their Kerran cousins, and also had different aspirations, and were basically a hand picked elite of the kerran tribes, but they were STILL Kerran.</p>

Triasa
11-24-2009, 11:18 AM
<p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=187040�" target="_blank">Link</a></p><p>From Vhalen:</p><p>2.  The Ratonga have been in the works for a long, long time. Their origin may help explain a bit more why they exist. Maybe we will see more of that in the future. <strong>The Vah Shir are not entirely gone. Their grand society though... well... who knows?</strong></p><p><strong></strong> </p><p>This could mean that they've interbred with the Kerra, which would technically mean they're not entirely gone...  but to me, it seems to indicate there are some true Vah Shir out there somewhere.</p>

Obzidian
11-24-2009, 11:29 AM
<p>Re: Vah'Shir again -- That's why I listed them as presumably killed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  They, as well as other races on the list, are at the very least lost.  (Who knows, we might find Vah'Shir on Odus.)  We could debate a plethora of races, but there is no evidence of their survival (with the exception of Vhalen's cryptic remark) and therefore they are, for all intents and purposes, lost. </p>

Homeskillet
11-24-2009, 11:47 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=187040�" target="_blank">Link</a></p><p>From Vhalen:</p><p>2.  The Ratonga have been in the works for a long, long time. Their origin may help explain a bit more why they exist. Maybe we will see more of that in the future. <strong>The Vah Shir are not entirely gone. Their grand society though... well... who knows?</strong></p><p><strong></strong> </p><p>This could mean that they've interbred with the Kerra, which would technically mean they're not entirely gone...  but to me, it seems to indicate there are some true Vah Shir out there somewhere.</p></blockquote><p>The Vah Shir that remained on Norrath at the time that Luclin was cut off from all modes of transportation did sort of have this big "hippie revival" sort of thing, and went to screw with their more primitive cousins and go back to native land. Keep in mind though, the Vah Shir were building gold palaces on Norrath before they did that on Luclin, so it is quite possible that some of them chose to not interbreed with their cousins on Norrath and established their own little "We're the Xanadu Cats" colony. Again, the Vah Shir are just kerran by a different name that are a result of a voluntary eugenics sort of deal. It's like if you really wanted to, you could (allegedly) selectively breed human beings to try and create a stronger "pure" being...not that <a href="http://www.shoaheducation.com/pNEW.html" target="_blank">others</a> haven't <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta" target="_blank">tried</a> before.</p><p>Okay, good example of Vah Shir/Kerran...if you saw the finale of the reimagined Battlestar Galactica series, where the Colonials find ancient earth and then go native and make babies? Yeah its like that.</p>

Loxus
11-24-2009, 12:07 PM
<p>What about the race of mobs in Vex Thal (can't remember their name).  Axtiva?? (sp) I don't believe there was a ton of lore on them though.</p>

Banditman
11-24-2009, 12:31 PM
<p>Akheva I believe.  They were also in a few of the outdoor Luclin zones.</p>

Saroc_Luclin
11-24-2009, 01:06 PM
<p>More or less all of the Luclin races, the Akheva, the 4 arms, and the alien races, the Ape-men, and the Thought Horrors are all extinct now as far as we know with the destruction of Luclin. Unless some managed to sneak back down to Norrath like Owlbears did. (Owlbears made it but not the Sonic wolves? How sad. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> )</p><p>Oh and the Coteri vampires are also extinct I believe too right?</p>

Cusashorn
11-24-2009, 04:13 PM
<p><cite>Saroc_Luclin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>More or less all of the Luclin races, the Akheva, the 4 arms, and the alien races, the Ape-men, and the Thought Horrors are all extinct now as far as we know with the destruction of Luclin. Unless some managed to sneak back down to Norrath like Owlbears did. (Owlbears made it but not the Sonic wolves? How sad. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /> )</p><p>Oh and the Coteri vampires are also extinct I believe too right?</p></blockquote><p>Owlbears were captured by poachers and escaped into Nektulos when they were being transported to Freeport's Zoo.</p><p>The Akhevans are an immortal race. After they lose thier physical bodies (which only happens if they're killed), they come back again in a spectre form. If that form is killed, then they're dead for good.</p><p>It is possible that the Akhevans survived Luclin's initial destruction by losing their physical bodies. Thier spectre forms might still be wandering around up there, but with no bodies left, it all but guaranteed that those who are left now are those who are left of the race.</p><p>The Akheva are the 4 arms btw.</p>

Meirril
11-24-2009, 08:41 PM
<p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Vaedaer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir were simply a more "elite" tribe of kerra, they were always still kerra just ultimately led a different lifestyle and were named for their leader Vah Kerrath. I do agree that they are for all intents and purposes "gone" but the interbreeding was not so much a blending of biology, but a melting of the Vah Shir culture into kerran society.</p></blockquote><p>Except in EQ1 the Vah Shir were a completely different race.</p></blockquote><p>They were still kerra, just they adapted to their new home and the later generations evolved, they just called themselves Vah Shirs because they  evolved and looked different, to Honor their formal tribe leader aaaand they lived the heck away and didn't knew how to  go back until the nexus was set xp</p><p>This all being my opinion not a fact XP</p></blockquote><p>No that pretty much is the fact right there. They were the nobility tribe of Kerra, they were performing a ceremony with Vah Kerrath, having taken the smartest, strongest, quickest of the "Shir" with him, when they were "blown" to Luclin during the Erudite Civil War. They were always kind of the elites of their kind because of a different lifestyle. They may have been considered a different "race" in respects to the same way an Asian (Indian, Korea, Japanese take your pick) person looks generally different from a Caucasian person but they are still both human beings.</p><p>The primary reason they looked like tigers and lions and all kinds of awesome in EQ1 is chalked up to them being a player race (and probably to please furries *shudder*), otherwise they may have looked like...well like EQ2 Kerrans, like humans with cat heads and tails. Yes, part of it was lore, but they were dolled up for that reason. I'm 99% sure the "Sarnak" were handled the way they were as a player race out of the devs saving themselves from designing a new skeleton for armor or using the npc sarnak model for it (which looked much cooler). The Vah Shir ended up living under much harsher and alien conditions than their Kerran cousins, and also had different aspirations, and were basically a hand picked elite of the kerran tribes, but they were STILL Kerran.</p></blockquote><p>You played EQ1 right? I remember the Kera, and the Kera isles. The Kera are very short. Slightly smaller than a wood elf. Vah Shir were huge. They were about the same size as trolls and barbarians. Like I said, if you want to consider Eurdites and Barbarians to be Humans then yeah they are the same race. Personally, I think there was enough distinctive differences that you could easily tell them appart. The Vah Shir blood runs thick in today's Kerran population. They look much closer to Vah Shir than they do Kera. The Kera actually had bodies very similar to Ratonga, though more sleek and feline.</p>

Homeskillet
11-24-2009, 08:52 PM
<p>The Vah Shir were the kerra that were taller than the others, stronger and smarter, hand picked to be the elite of the kerrans. It is in the game covered under the History of the Vah Shir tomes found in the Forsaken City:</p><p><span style="font-family: Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; line-height: 16px;"><em>The Kingdom of Odus Kejaan chose the wildest from the clan of the Shir, those who were outsiders of their kin. From them he made his nobles and warriors. Kejaan took the wisest from the clan of Kajek. From them he made his shaman and advisors. Kejaan took the quickest from the clan of Shahar, from them he made his hunters and farmers. The children of Nairu, the Karani, became the servants of the kingdom. United, the Komiyat Kerrath prospered for many years. Kejaan built his palace of gold within the claws of the four fingered paw. </em></span></p><p>Vah Kerrath was the leader of a hand picked group of kerran that he named the Shir, when they ended up on Luclin they took his name to honor him, thus Vah Shir.</p>

Meirril
11-24-2009, 09:03 PM
<p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir were the kerra that were taller than the others, stronger and smarter, hand picked to be the elite of the kerrans. It is in the game covered under the History of the Vah Shir tomes found in the Forsaken City:</p><p><span style="line-height: 16px; font-family: Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px;"><em>The Kingdom of Odus Kejaan chose the wildest from the clan of the Shir, those who were outsiders of their kin. From them he made his nobles and warriors. Kejaan took the wisest from the clan of Kajek. From them he made his shaman and advisors. Kejaan took the quickest from the clan of Shahar, from them he made his hunters and farmers. The children of Nairu, the Karani, became the servants of the kingdom. United, the Komiyat Kerrath prospered for many years. Kejaan built his palace of gold within the claws of the four fingered paw. </em></span></p><p>Vah Kerrath was the leader of a hand picked group of kerran that he named the Shir, when they ended up on Luclin they took his name to honor him, thus Vah Shir.</p></blockquote><p>And the humans are the smaller, smarter barbarians that chose to settle in the warmer plains. After a few hundred years Eurd gathered a handpicked group of humans to travel to Odus and their decendents became the Euradites. The same process applies to the barbarian's child races, and the elven races too. Or are you saying that Teir'Dal are just Dal and should "just get over it"?</p>

Vaedaer
11-25-2009, 11:21 AM
<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir were the kerra that were taller than the others, stronger and smarter, hand picked to be the elite of the kerrans. It is in the game covered under the History of the Vah Shir tomes found in the Forsaken City:</p><p><span style="line-height: 16px; font-size: 11px; font-family: Tahoma, Arial, "><em>The Kingdom of Odus Kejaan chose the wildest from the clan of the Shir, those who were outsiders of their kin. From them he made his nobles and warriors. Kejaan took the wisest from the clan of Kajek. From them he made his shaman and advisors. Kejaan took the quickest from the clan of Shahar, from them he made his hunters and farmers. The children of Nairu, the Karani, became the servants of the kingdom. United, the Komiyat Kerrath prospered for many years. Kejaan built his palace of gold within the claws of the four fingered paw. </em></span></p><p>Vah Kerrath was the leader of a hand picked group of kerran that he named the Shir, when they ended up on Luclin they took his name to honor him, thus Vah Shir.</p></blockquote><p>And the humans are the smaller, smarter barbarians that chose to settle in the warmer plains. After a few hundred years Eurd gathered a handpicked group of humans to travel to Odus and their decendents became the Euradites. The same process applies to the barbarian's child races, and the elven races too. Or are you saying that Teir'Dal are just Dal and should "just get over it"?</p></blockquote><p>As far as I know, the Humans weren't born small, they were barbarians that imigrated and eventually changed, adapting to their new civilizations where it wasnt so harsh or full of  warfare as Halas was with all the giants orcs and stuff, and erudites were enlightened humans with a tropical tan (on eq1) they were still pretty much human looking only they had a big head.</p><p>Same goes for the Vah  Shir, Kerras whos later generations were born stronger and adapted to their new home more, I am sure all those kerras of the Shir clan weren't 8 feet tall when they got to luclin. So with the change they changed their name /shrug its not a big deal anywho, is it?</p>

Rezikai
11-28-2009, 06:09 AM
<p>was looking up some information on old races and i came across this <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=402069" target="_blank">thread</a> </span>where Jindrak and Vhalen both talked about a few old oppressed races, one of them I think might be from EQoA .. the Tortox(sp) i think might have been the Kappas of EQOA's Odus. A race of turtle guys that were in the North West section of Odus, at the very north western edge of the Grand Plateau. They were held under control by some pretty viscous beings.</p><p>The beings used the Naga graphic but alot of the post Odus stuff in EQoA re-used graphics to represent "similar" type mobs/creatures since that artwork couldn't be added post launch of an expac due to the art of the game being stored on the disk.</p><p>an EQoA Kappa.</p><p><img src="http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x120/Rezikai_photos/kappa.jpg" /></p><p>KoS to all adventurers they hated being slaves and hated anyone coming to stop them from working on the bridges and such their overseers had them working on.</p>

Cusashorn
11-28-2009, 03:46 PM
<p>I find myself wondering about the status of the Luggalds.</p><p>The fact that we have Marr-touched Frogloks as a player race should be proof enough that the Legacy of Ykesha adventure pack in EQlive is part of our Canon, at least in part. The Luggalds were one of my favorite races to fight against, simply because they had the lore behind them that they were created because the Dark Elves had forsaken Innoruuk by invading his realm. They were no longer his Chosen race.</p><p>Innoruuk wanted the Luggalds to prosper. So much so that he actually came down to Norrath to personally protect the Luggald Broodmother from being killed. Somehow, I don't think he thought his cunning plan all the way through by creating ONE creature to serve as the bearer of all children for that race...</p>

DukeOccam
11-28-2009, 06:05 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find myself wondering about the status of the Luggalds.</p><p>The fact that we have Marr-touched Frogloks as a player race should be proof enough that the Legacy of Ykesha adventure pack in EQlive is part of our Canon, at least in part.</p></blockquote><p>One thought that keeps occurring to me is that just because something happened post-PoP in EQ it doesn't mean it, or something very similar to it, couldn't have happened in EQ2. I understand the whole alternate universe thing, but "alternate" doesn't mean they have to be 100% different in every way.Another example is the Sleeper...in another thread someone said that since it happened after PoP, then he was never re-subdued, so therefore he must be out there somewhere. Maybe he <em>was</em> put to sleep again...we can't rule that out with certainty.So yes, we shouldn't assume everything in EQ post-PoP also happened in EQ2, but we can't definitively say that none of it did. It just means it didn't <em>necessarily</em> happen. So anyway, back on point, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Luggalds show up...they were one of the cooler-looking NPC races IMO.</p>

Cusashorn
11-28-2009, 06:15 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find myself wondering about the status of the Luggalds.</p><p>The fact that we have Marr-touched Frogloks as a player race should be proof enough that the Legacy of Ykesha adventure pack in EQlive is part of our Canon, at least in part.</p></blockquote><p>One thought that keeps occurring to me is that just because something happened post-PoP in EQ it doesn't mean it, or something very similar to it, couldn't have happened in EQ2. I understand the whole alternate universe thing, but "alternate" doesn't mean they have to be 100% different in every way.Another example is the Sleeper...in another thread someone said that since it happened after PoP, then he was never re-subdued, so therefore he must be out there somewhere. Maybe he <em>was</em> put to sleep again...we can't rule that out with certainty.So yes, we shouldn't assume everything in EQ post-PoP also happened in EQ2, but we can't definitively say that none of it did. It just means it didn't <em>necessarily</em> happen. So anyway, back on point, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Luggalds show up...they were one of the cooler-looking NPC races IMO.</p></blockquote><p>Why do you think I said "At least in part" at the end of that sentence?</p><p>I know LoY happens after PoP, but technically, the Plane of Time (and the PoP expansion in whole) was not actually beaten for the first time until *AFTER* LoY came out. it really took a year before the first guilds beat the Plane of Time (and caused the time shift.) It just matters whether the developers decided to take that into account or not.</p><p>It's just the Luggalds in particular that stands out about this. This is a case where this adventure pack happened after the expansion where the time shift happened, but before that expansion was actually completed and beaten. I don't care about the Drogmores.. I want those mounts to stay in EQlive. Danak Harbor and the other pirate settlements could have been expanded upon if they decided to make Broken Skull Rock more than just an actual rock in the Moors of Ykesha. The actual "story" element from LoY that eventually lead into Gates of Discord can stay in EQlive too.</p>

DukeOccam
11-28-2009, 06:26 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why do you think I said "At least in part" at the end of that sentence?</p></blockquote><p>I know you did; I wasn't challenging you. My point was that maybe we don't have to prove LoY is canon, and if some part of it is found to be in agreement between the two games, it doesn't have to mean <em>all</em> of it is canon (I'm with you on the Drogmors...never liked them myself).</p>

Rezikai
11-28-2009, 07:59 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find myself wondering about the status of the Luggalds.</p><p>The fact that we have Marr-touched Frogloks as a player race should be proof enough that the Legacy of Ykesha adventure pack in EQlive is part of our Canon, at least in part.</p></blockquote><p>One thought that keeps occurring to me is that just because something happened post-PoP in EQ it doesn't mean it, or something very similar to it, couldn't have happened in EQ2. I understand the whole alternate universe thing, but "alternate" doesn't mean they have to be 100% different in every way.Another example is the Sleeper...in another thread someone said that since it happened after PoP, then he was never re-subdued, so therefore he must be out there somewhere. Maybe he <em>was</em> put to sleep again...we can't rule that out with certainty.So yes, we shouldn't assume everything in EQ post-PoP also happened in EQ2, but we can't definitively say that none of it did. It just means it didn't <em>necessarily</em> happen. So anyway, back on point, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Luggalds show up...they were one of the cooler-looking NPC races IMO.</p></blockquote><p>Why do you think I said "At least in part" at the end of that sentence?</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em><strong>I know LoY happens after PoP, but technically, the Plane of Time (and the PoP expansion in whole) was not actually beaten for the first time until *AFTER* LoY came out. it really took a year before the first guilds beat the Plane of Time (and caused the time shift.)</strong></em></span> It just matters whether the developers decided to take that into account or not.</p><p>It's just the Luggalds in particular that stands out about this. This is a case where this adventure pack happened after the expansion where the time shift happened, but before that expansion was actually completed and beaten. I don't care about the Drogmores.. I want those mounts to stay in EQlive. Danak Harbor and the other pirate settlements could have been expanded upon if they decided to make Broken Skull Rock more than just an actual rock in the Moors of Ykesha. The actual "story" element from LoY that eventually lead into Gates of Discord can stay in EQlive too.</p></blockquote><p>Highlighted the part that may be intresting to you Cusa, and a reason why you may be befuddled about that stuff from LoY when it came out before PoP -Time was "beaten".</p><p>In EQoA and here in EQ2 alot as well, an expac's "story" is released the 1st day.. except if devs specifically set up events to make it "After" the initial release of that expac.. for instance.. Anashti Sul wasnt beaten for a few months into TsO and while not an entire year it was delayed but in some devs eyes she could be beaten 20hrs into an expac and that would and it wouldnt make a difference that the time it took to beat an expac's story was 1 day or 6 months. DoF, KoS, Eof had this as did RoK except the fact we couldnt beat Trak until the heal proc buff was removed from him which they put on him to make killable when the put in the delayed (by RL) myth's/epics.</p><p>Some devs and producers have to brace for the fact an expac full of content can be beaten in 72 hrs (eqoa's Plane of disease *cough*) and others, so in some instances regarding "progression" of the world story.. and expac's worth of story is sometimes considered beaten by players on day1 of an expac if it so happens.  The devs of any game really progresses the world story of their game, the players in this instance are simply that.. the players while the devs run the stage. We get to assist in this at times with live events and quest which is why that interaction is so fun.</p><p>I dont know if that happened in EQ1's POP expac when LoY was out and Time wasnt beaten yet? I know EQ1 was a little more notorious for cranking out expacs like lemmings when story/content could have been looked at. So if someone were to say the Luggalds didnt happen b/c it was "after" PoP it could hold water, unless the devs decide that they went by the time content was beaten rather then the order of its release. Then again its their decision to decide whats canon and whats not overall,... again were the players and their the DM.</p><p>just some food for thought man.</p>

Meirril
11-28-2009, 09:50 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find myself wondering about the status of the Luggalds.</p><p>The fact that we have Marr-touched Frogloks as a player race should be proof enough that the Legacy of Ykesha adventure pack in EQlive is part of our Canon, at least in part.</p></blockquote><p>One thought that keeps occurring to me is that just because something happened post-PoP in EQ it doesn't mean it, or something very similar to it, couldn't have happened in EQ2. I understand the whole alternate universe thing, but "alternate" doesn't mean they have to be 100% different in every way.Another example is the Sleeper...in another thread someone said that since it happened after PoP, then he was never re-subdued, so therefore he must be out there somewhere. Maybe he <em>was</em> put to sleep again...we can't rule that out with certainty.So yes, we shouldn't assume everything in EQ post-PoP also happened in EQ2, but we can't definitively say that none of it did. It just means it didn't <em>necessarily</em> happen. So anyway, back on point, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Luggalds show up...they were one of the cooler-looking NPC races IMO.</p></blockquote><p>Why do you think I said "At least in part" at the end of that sentence?</p><p>I know LoY happens after PoP, but technically, the Plane of Time (and the PoP expansion in whole) was not actually beaten for the first time until *AFTER* LoY came out. it really took a year before the first guilds beat the Plane of Time (and caused the time shift.) It just matters whether the developers decided to take that into account or not.</p><p>It's just the Luggalds in particular that stands out about this. This is a case where this adventure pack happened after the expansion where the time shift happened, but before that expansion was actually completed and beaten. I don't care about the Drogmores.. I want those mounts to stay in EQlive. Danak Harbor and the other pirate settlements could have been expanded upon if they decided to make Broken Skull Rock more than just an actual rock in the Moors of Ykesha. The actual "story" element from LoY that eventually lead into Gates of Discord can stay in EQlive too.</p></blockquote><p>It could just be a bad memory, but I think I herd a dev include LoY as part of EQ2 cannon. Though, I never had the impression in EQ1 that Broken Skull Rock was that close to Innothule Swamp. After all, you had to go all the way to Odus and Stonebrunt Mountains to hop a boat that would take you there. You'd think if it was that close, you could catch a ship in Freeport!</p><p>The Luggald's story is interesting. Physically the Ya'lei look an awful lot like them. The fact that they traditionally worship Perexus confuses me. The Ya'lei arn't sea goblins. They Ya'lei arn't Luggalds. Where did they come from? When did they come into existance? Seriously, what gives here?</p>

Cusashorn
11-28-2009, 09:57 PM
<p><cite>Rezikai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find myself wondering about the status of the Luggalds.</p><p>The fact that we have Marr-touched Frogloks as a player race should be proof enough that the Legacy of Ykesha adventure pack in EQlive is part of our Canon, at least in part.</p></blockquote><p>One thought that keeps occurring to me is that just because something happened post-PoP in EQ it doesn't mean it, or something very similar to it, couldn't have happened in EQ2. I understand the whole alternate universe thing, but "alternate" doesn't mean they have to be 100% different in every way.Another example is the Sleeper...in another thread someone said that since it happened after PoP, then he was never re-subdued, so therefore he must be out there somewhere. Maybe he <em>was</em> put to sleep again...we can't rule that out with certainty.So yes, we shouldn't assume everything in EQ post-PoP also happened in EQ2, but we can't definitively say that none of it did. It just means it didn't <em>necessarily</em> happen. So anyway, back on point, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Luggalds show up...they were one of the cooler-looking NPC races IMO.</p></blockquote><p>Why do you think I said "At least in part" at the end of that sentence?</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em><strong>I know LoY happens after PoP, but technically, the Plane of Time (and the PoP expansion in whole) was not actually beaten for the first time until *AFTER* LoY came out. it really took a year before the first guilds beat the Plane of Time (and caused the time shift.)</strong></em></span> It just matters whether the developers decided to take that into account or not.</p><p>It's just the Luggalds in particular that stands out about this. This is a case where this adventure pack happened after the expansion where the time shift happened, but before that expansion was actually completed and beaten. I don't care about the Drogmores.. I want those mounts to stay in EQlive. Danak Harbor and the other pirate settlements could have been expanded upon if they decided to make Broken Skull Rock more than just an actual rock in the Moors of Ykesha. The actual "story" element from LoY that eventually lead into Gates of Discord can stay in EQlive too.</p></blockquote><p>Highlighted the part that may be intresting to you Cusa, and a reason why you may be befuddled about that stuff from LoY when it came out before PoP -Time was "beaten".</p><p>In EQoA and here in EQ2 alot as well, an expac's "story" is released the 1st day.. except if devs specifically set up events to make it "After" the initial release of that expac.. for instance.. Anashti Sul wasnt beaten for a few months into TsO and while not an entire year it was delayed but in some devs eyes she could be beaten 20hrs into an expac and that would and it wouldnt make a difference that the time it took to beat an expac's story was 1 day or 6 months. DoF, KoS, Eof had this as did RoK except the fact we couldnt beat Trak until the heal proc buff was removed from him which they put on him to make killable when the put in the delayed (by RL) myth's/epics.</p><p>Some devs and producers have to brace for the fact an expac full of content can be beaten in 72 hrs (eqoa's Plane of disease *cough*) and others, so in some instances regarding "progression" of the world story.. and expac's worth of story is sometimes considered beaten by players on day1 of an expac if it so happens.  The devs of any game really progresses the world story of their game, the players in this instance are simply that.. the players while the devs run the stage. We get to assist in this at times with live events and quest which is why that interaction is so fun.</p><p>I dont know if that happened in EQ1's POP expac when LoY was out and Time wasnt beaten yet? I know EQ1 was a little more notorious for cranking out expacs like lemmings when story/content could have been looked at. So if someone were to say the Luggalds didnt happen b/c it was "after" PoP it could hold water, unless the devs decide that they went by the time content was beaten rather then the order of its release. Then again its their decision to decide whats canon and whats not overall,... again were the players and their the DM.</p><p>just some food for thought man.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, I have been lectured and debated this fact many times over the past few years. Honestly, I could take it or leave it. If a dev were to say if the Luggalds were canon or not, I wouldn't mind either way. All I know is this:</p><p>-The Marr-Touched frogloks exist.</p><p>-The game semi-confirms that the Trolls were exiled out of Grobb and moved to Neriak, or otherwise suggests that Neriak's foreign quarter has a significantly large population from of Trolls</p><p>-The existance or reestablishment of Grobb in the Moors of Ykesha is FLAT OUT AVOIDED. There is *NO* given reason why the city exists. None. They don't go into any detail as to what happened to Gukta either.</p>

Meirril
11-28-2009, 10:05 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rezikai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I find myself wondering about the status of the Luggalds.</p><p>The fact that we have Marr-touched Frogloks as a player race should be proof enough that the Legacy of Ykesha adventure pack in EQlive is part of our Canon, at least in part.</p></blockquote><p>One thought that keeps occurring to me is that just because something happened post-PoP in EQ it doesn't mean it, or something very similar to it, couldn't have happened in EQ2. I understand the whole alternate universe thing, but "alternate" doesn't mean they have to be 100% different in every way.Another example is the Sleeper...in another thread someone said that since it happened after PoP, then he was never re-subdued, so therefore he must be out there somewhere. Maybe he <em>was</em> put to sleep again...we can't rule that out with certainty.So yes, we shouldn't assume everything in EQ post-PoP also happened in EQ2, but we can't definitively say that none of it did. It just means it didn't <em>necessarily</em> happen. So anyway, back on point, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Luggalds show up...they were one of the cooler-looking NPC races IMO.</p></blockquote><p>Why do you think I said "At least in part" at the end of that sentence?</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><em><strong>I know LoY happens after PoP, but technically, the Plane of Time (and the PoP expansion in whole) was not actually beaten for the first time until *AFTER* LoY came out. it really took a year before the first guilds beat the Plane of Time (and caused the time shift.)</strong></em></span> It just matters whether the developers decided to take that into account or not.</p><p>It's just the Luggalds in particular that stands out about this. This is a case where this adventure pack happened after the expansion where the time shift happened, but before that expansion was actually completed and beaten. I don't care about the Drogmores.. I want those mounts to stay in EQlive. Danak Harbor and the other pirate settlements could have been expanded upon if they decided to make Broken Skull Rock more than just an actual rock in the Moors of Ykesha. The actual "story" element from LoY that eventually lead into Gates of Discord can stay in EQlive too.</p></blockquote><p>Highlighted the part that may be intresting to you Cusa, and a reason why you may be befuddled about that stuff from LoY when it came out before PoP -Time was "beaten".</p><p>In EQoA and here in EQ2 alot as well, an expac's "story" is released the 1st day.. except if devs specifically set up events to make it "After" the initial release of that expac.. for instance.. Anashti Sul wasnt beaten for a few months into TsO and while not an entire year it was delayed but in some devs eyes she could be beaten 20hrs into an expac and that would and it wouldnt make a difference that the time it took to beat an expac's story was 1 day or 6 months. DoF, KoS, Eof had this as did RoK except the fact we couldnt beat Trak until the heal proc buff was removed from him which they put on him to make killable when the put in the delayed (by RL) myth's/epics.</p><p>Some devs and producers have to brace for the fact an expac full of content can be beaten in 72 hrs (eqoa's Plane of disease *cough*) and others, so in some instances regarding "progression" of the world story.. and expac's worth of story is sometimes considered beaten by players on day1 of an expac if it so happens.  The devs of any game really progresses the world story of their game, the players in this instance are simply that.. the players while the devs run the stage. We get to assist in this at times with live events and quest which is why that interaction is so fun.</p><p>I dont know if that happened in EQ1's POP expac when LoY was out and Time wasnt beaten yet? I know EQ1 was a little more notorious for cranking out expacs like lemmings when story/content could have been looked at. So if someone were to say the Luggalds didnt happen b/c it was "after" PoP it could hold water, unless the devs decide that they went by the time content was beaten rather then the order of its release. Then again its their decision to decide whats canon and whats not overall,... again were the players and their the DM.</p><p>just some food for thought man.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, I have been lectured and debated this fact many times over the past few years. Honestly, I could take it or leave it. If a dev were to say if the Luggalds were canon or not, I wouldn't mind either way. All I know is this:</p><p>-The Marr-Touched frogloks exist.</p><p>-The game semi-confirms that the Trolls were exiled out of Grobb and moved to Neriak, or otherwise suggests that Neriak's foreign quarter has a significantly large population from of Trolls</p><p>-The existance or reestablishment of Grobb in the Moors of Ykesha is FLAT OUT AVOIDED. There is *NO* given reason why the city exists. None. They don't go into any detail as to what happened to Gukta either.</p></blockquote><p>Back when the Frogloks were unlocked, during their quest line. Wasn't it reveiled in the quest lore that the Frogloks were driven out of Gukta by the 3rd Rallosian Army? That in fact, the survivors flead via an escape tunnel to hide in Guk which was much, much easier to defend than Gukta/Grobb?</p><p>The story doesn't cover what happened after the Rallosians took over the city. Presumably the Trolls started to relocate back to Grobb after the Rallosians either moved on to Freeport/Qeynos or were killed in mass by the greenmist. I'd suggest that the trolls in Grobb could of even been enslaved by the Rallosians and placed there before the greenmist came to liberate them.</p>

Cusashorn
11-28-2009, 10:08 PM
<p>haha oh wow. Stupid me. I forgot that the fate of Gukta was revealed right in the Tome of Destiny... Well, there you go.</p>

gra
11-29-2009, 12:14 AM
<p>Lore or not, <span >Luggalds look cool and that should be enough of a reason for them to exist. I mean, come on there are those ridiculous purple trog things all over the Shattered Lands, but no awesome hateful fishbone people anywhere?</span></p>

Saroc_Luclin
11-30-2009, 12:45 PM
With LoY, while you got to it from a boat on Odus, it was always located on the southern tip of Antonica; EQ's map and the Atlas show that as well. The Odus route was the only 'safe' route adventurers had to reach Broken Skull rock. (Oh and EQII has had Broken Skull Pirates almost since day one, located on the shore of Antonica IIRC)

Rainmare
11-30-2009, 01:26 PM
<p>Personally, I HATED the luggalds. they seemed way to much like some race just made and thrown in there to give you something besides the Brokenskull to fight. and they looked horrible, like blue 'creatures of the black lagoon'. Inny was never one to forsake his dark elves anymore then tunare woudl forsake the wood or high elves.</p><p>Tunare may not be particularly happy with them, and Inny probably wasn't pleased with the events in PoP, but they still, when they chose to return, blessed thier 'first' children with thier prophets.</p><p>I don't think it was simplicity that had the devs pick a high elf to be the prophet of Tunare, or a dark elf the prophet of Inny. when they could easily have picked another race. Inny's prophet could have been a troll like his avatar, or Tunare could easily have had a Fae.</p><p>(and yes, not buying the Ydal as anything but a myth/selfserving creation mythos. it just mucks up WAY to much stuff.)</p><p>And I loved my Drogmor. I want those back in game. I'd prefer them at least over Rhinos.</p>

Nevao
11-30-2009, 02:05 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't think it was simplicity that had the devs pick a high elf to be the prophet of Tunare, or a dark elf the prophet of Inny. when they could easily have picked another race. Inny's prophet could have been a troll like his avatar, or Tunare could easily have had a Fae.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Actually</span> <a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Xilania_Nevagon_%28Neriak%29" target="_blank">Xilania Nevagon</a><span style="color: #ff9900;">, </span><span style="color: #ff9900;">the Seraph of Hate, is a Half Elf. Now whether he chose her because she was head of the Dismal Rage (thus bringing in someone with power/access or simply "corrupting" an organization) or to spite the Dark Elves or for some other reason I don't know.</span></p>

TheSpin
11-30-2009, 02:11 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Personally, I HATED the luggalds. they seemed way to much like some race just made and thrown in there to give you something besides the Brokenskull to fight. and they looked horrible, like blue 'creatures of the black lagoon'. Inny was never one to forsake his dark elves anymore then tunare woudl forsake the wood or high elves.</p><p>Tunare may not be particularly happy with them, and Inny probably wasn't pleased with the events in PoP, but they still, when they chose to return, blessed thier 'first' children with thier prophets.</p><p>I don't think it was simplicity that had the devs pick a high elf to be the prophet of Tunare, or a dark elf the prophet of Inny. when they could easily have picked another race. Inny's prophet could have been a troll like his avatar, or Tunare could easily have had a Fae.</p><p>(and yes, not buying the Ydal as anything but a myth/selfserving creation mythos. it just mucks up WAY to much stuff.)</p><p>And I loved my Drogmor. I want those back in game. I'd prefer them at least over Rhinos.</p></blockquote><p>Inny's avatar definately looks like a troll, but Cazic made the trolls.  This is maybe something for another thread, but I just thought it was worth mentioning.</p>

Cusashorn
11-30-2009, 02:24 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Personally, I HATED the luggalds. they seemed way to much like some race just made and thrown in there to give you something besides the Brokenskull to fight. and they looked horrible, like blue 'creatures of the black lagoon'. Inny was never one to forsake his dark elves anymore then tunare woudl forsake the wood or high elves.</p><p>Tunare may not be particularly happy with them, and Inny probably wasn't pleased with the events in PoP, but they still, when they chose to return, blessed thier 'first' children with thier prophets.</p><p>I don't think it was simplicity that had the devs pick a high elf to be the prophet of Tunare, or a dark elf the prophet of Inny. when they could easily have picked another race. Inny's prophet could have been a troll like his avatar, or Tunare could easily have had a Fae.</p><p>(and yes, not buying the Ydal as anything but a myth/selfserving creation mythos. it just mucks up WAY to much stuff.)</p><p>And I loved my Drogmor. I want those back in game. I'd prefer them at least over Rhinos.</p></blockquote><p>The only reason Inny looks like a troll is because the troll base model is the closest that looks like him. Cazic Thule's avatar is a golem with a 2nd set of arms... Inny chose a HALF ELF as his prophet, and the dark elves were none to pleased of this fact.</p><p>As I said, Inny himself (not his avatar) came down to protect the Luggald Broodmother. He even states that he wouldn't let them destroy his new chosen race so easily.</p><p>BTW, there are no brokenskull pirates, living or dead, in Antonica. There are Blackshield and Gunthak pirates in Commonlands though.</p>

glowsintheda
11-30-2009, 08:45 PM
<p>While I doubt that we will ever see them in EQ2 the continued existance of the shissar and kedge should be discussed in this thread.  While definatly taking place after POP, the TBS expansion does reveal the fate of the shissar, kedge, and the combine empire.  The shissar, kedge, and the combine had fled to the domes under the sea near odus long before the events in POP were supposed to have taken place.  While we can't assume that the same is true here, it is entierly possible that it is, since it was supposed to have happened prior to the time split.</p><p>The events that led us to uncovering the shissar, kedge, and combine again in EQ1 were precipitated by Mayongs crusade against Sol Ro.  Since Mayong was never officially evelated to demi god status in EQ2 I some how doubt that the combine/shissar/kedge will be reintroduced here, unless they find some other way to bring them back.</p>

Meirril
12-01-2009, 02:36 AM
<p><cite>glowsinthedark wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>While I doubt that we will ever see them in EQ2 the continued existance of the shissar and kedge should be discussed in this thread.  While definatly taking place after POP, the TBS expansion does reveal the fate of the shissar, kedge, and the combine empire.  The shissar, kedge, and the combine had fled to the domes under the sea near odus long before the events in POP were supposed to have taken place.  While we can't assume that the same is true here, it is entierly possible that it is, since it was supposed to have happened prior to the time split.</p><p>The events that led us to uncovering the shissar, kedge, and combine again in EQ1 were precipitated by Mayongs crusade against Sol Ro.  Since Mayong was never officially evelated to demi god status in EQ2 I some how doubt that the combine/shissar/kedge will be reintroduced here, unless they find some other way to bring them back.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, by "after PoP" we mean any expansion introduced after PoP. EQ2 Lore doesn't care about stuff introduced into EQ1's lore after the PoP expansion (with the possible exception of LoY) especially if it explains what happened before PoP.</p><p>Take for instance the retcon of Kedge history in EQ1. As far as EQ2 is concerned, Phingil is the last Kedge, and responsable for the destruction of the rest of his race when he was trying to become immortal. Period. End of statement. The events in TBS don't exist here. Now if a dev in EQ2 decides its a really cool storyline and introduces it into EQ2, only then does it exist.</p><p>There is an entire expansion in EQ1 that has players involved in elevating Mayong to become a diety. In EQ2 its been mentioned that Mayong was a god, and gave it up. How he became a god in EQ2 is a mystery. Just because you can go over it step by step in EQ1 has no bearing on us in EQ2.</p><p>To sum up: unless you have a hint of it in EQ2, its not a good idea to bring up that "this happened post PoP in EQ1" or "It happened in EQOA" or "That's the way it was in the PSP EQ game."</p>

Cusashorn
12-01-2009, 04:29 AM
<p><cite>glowsinthedark wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The events that led us to uncovering the shissar, kedge, and combine again in EQ1 were precipitated by Mayongs crusade against Sol Ro.  Since Mayong was never officially evelated to demi god status in EQ2 I some how doubt that the combine/shissar/kedge will be reintroduced here, unless they find some other way to bring them back.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, he was. The Freethinker questline goes onto state that he was elevated to god status and spent most of the last 500 years in the Plane of Hate. There is *NO* mention as to how he became a god, what he became a god of, why he became a god, or why he lost his status or chose to lose his status and returned to being a vampire. Nothing at all.</p>

Terron
12-01-2009, 08:57 AM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir have always been stated as being cousins to the Kerra. That word has always been just vague enough to count them as a different species, much the same as how we all have different species of [Removed for Content] Sapien on Earth. We're all still humans who can breed with each other regardless of whether we're Caucasian, Japanese, Aboriginal, Mexican, or what have you.</p></blockquote><p>That is because we are all one species, called [Removed for Content] sapiens. In fact one species with an unusually low amount of genetic variation.</p><p>Being able to interbreed freely is one definition of being the same species.</p>

Meirril
12-01-2009, 09:31 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Vah Shir have always been stated as being cousins to the Kerra. That word has always been just vague enough to count them as a different species, much the same as how we all have different species of [Removed for Content] Sapien on Earth. We're all still humans who can breed with each other regardless of whether we're Caucasian, Japanese, Aboriginal, Mexican, or what have you.</p></blockquote><p>That is because we are all one species, called [Removed for Content] sapiens. In fact one species with an unusually low amount of genetic variation.</p><p>Being able to interbreed freely is one definition of being the same species.</p></blockquote><p>And this doesn't apply in Norrath, otherwise we'd run into some problems real fast.</p><p>First, there are half elves. Half what exactly is a bit of a mystery actually. Its never explicidly stated what they are half of. So, by this definition all Elves are just elves and should stop calling themselves feir, teir, ayrn or whatever-dal. They are all just Dal.</p><p>Then there is the Human problem. Barbarians were first, Humans are a branch off, and Euradites are a further branch off. As far as we know, they can all breed freely amongst each other. So, they are all Barbarians? I think not!</p><p>Even worse, there are Lore refrences of Tier'dal being able to impregnate halflings. Halflings! So Halflings are Elves too? Really?</p><p>As a matter of fact it seems like its possible (without magical assistance) for any intelligent species on Norrath to breed with another species on Norrath. With magical assistance, Atrebe was able to cross-breed Sarnak and Dragons. He was also able to cross-breed Frogloks and Dragons, though that became a mount with a lower intelligence than either species involved. Both of these cross-breed races continue to breed true afterward which is another sign of them being a new species.</p><p>So yeah, the scientific rules on what constitues a species has nothing to do with Norrath races.</p>

Saroc_Luclin
12-01-2009, 10:50 AM
Well, in EQLive the SoF expansion showed that the first Half-elves came from an elf/human pairing, when a human fishing crew crashed on the shore of Faydwer and founded a village in the Hills of Shade, near an elf fishing village and a young person from each village met and fell in love with eachother and had a child. ( See <a href="http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=4408" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/...html?quest=4408</a> and <a href="http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=4511" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/...html?quest=4511</a> for both sides of that tragic storyline)

Cusashorn
12-01-2009, 01:29 PM
<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Even worse, there are Lore refrences of Tier'dal being able to impregnate halflings. Halflings! So Halflings are Elves too? Really?</p></blockquote><p>Wait, what?</p>

Pyra Shineflame
12-01-2009, 05:49 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Even worse, there are Lore refrences of Tier'dal being able to impregnate halflings. Halflings! So Halflings are Elves too? Really?</p></blockquote><p>Wait, what?</p></blockquote><p>Exactly what I thought. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure it was stated in lore that the Erudites had branched so far off that they <em>weren't </em>capable of human interbreeding anymore. Or, at the very least, wasn't a fertile matchup. And...the elf thing makes perfect sense (mostly). We have elves, Inny corrupted a bunch but they remain, genetically, elves. Some others deviated into the wood elves, Feir'Dal being a name that seems to be less of a race classification than a statement that they have gone a new way (the same as the Renda'Dal in Tunaria or the Erudites until they made themselves a new race).</p><p>The elf/human thing is a bit odd, I will admit but it is far more believable than human/orc or elf/troll which we haven't seen any evidence of (thank god). So not all humanoid races = same species. Magic does surmount some of the issues of cross breeding, if anyone was going to take the time and research to crossbreed themselves a new race, why shouldn't that race be able to self perpetuate? Atrebe wasn't sticking two animals together and calling it a race (see Drachnid. I don't believe they breed themselves), he was genetically splicing one. Difference there.</p>

Meirril
12-01-2009, 09:52 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Even worse, there are Lore refrences of Tier'dal being able to impregnate halflings. Halflings! So Halflings are Elves too? Really?</p></blockquote><p>Wait, what?</p></blockquote><p>Guess you didn't do a lot of the newbie quests in Nerriak back in EQ1? The Assassin's Guildmaster sends young Tier'Dal to assassinate a young lady with the last name Hunnyjam in the Misty Thicket as she poses a threat to the crown. After you complete the assassination mission the guild leader reveals that the only reason he had her assassinated is that he got her pregnate during an undercover mission in Rivervale.</p><p>So yeah, Tier'dal can impregnate halflings without magical assistance or this guy wouldn't be worried enough to have her assassinated. And this is an old, old quest. Pre-velious at least.</p>

Meirril
12-01-2009, 10:06 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Even worse, there are Lore refrences of Tier'dal being able to impregnate halflings. Halflings! So Halflings are Elves too? Really?</p></blockquote><p>Wait, what?</p></blockquote><p>Exactly what I thought. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure it was stated in lore that the Erudites had branched so far off that they <em>weren't </em>capable of human interbreeding anymore. Or, at the very least, wasn't a fertile matchup. And...the elf thing makes perfect sense (mostly). We have elves, Inny corrupted a bunch but they remain, genetically, elves. Some others deviated into the wood elves, Feir'Dal being a name that seems to be less of a race classification than a statement that they have gone a new way (the same as the Renda'Dal in Tunaria or the Erudites until they made themselves a new race).</p><p>The elf/human thing is a bit odd, I will admit but it is far more believable than human/orc or elf/troll which we haven't seen any evidence of (thank god). So not all humanoid races = same species. Magic does surmount some of the issues of cross breeding, if anyone was going to take the time and research to crossbreed themselves a new race, why shouldn't that race be able to self perpetuate? Atrebe wasn't sticking two animals together and calling it a race (see Drachnid. I don't believe they breed themselves), he was genetically splicing one. Difference there.</p></blockquote><p>Actually Drachnids lay eggs which hatch into Drachnids. Mayong created the first few Drachnids himself, and after that they continued to expand on Kunark without his assistance. Now unless King Thex decided to kindly feed thousands of his race to the newly growing warrens of Drachnids, I can't see how their explosive growth on Kunark could of been possible without breeding true.</p><p>As for Orcs, Trolls and Ogres I'd have to say you have cultural influence to thank for that. Orcs are extremely xenophobic and would see breeding with another species as a way to weaken their "pure" race. Trolls tend to think of other races as food, not breeding stock. Also the Troll standard of beauty simply can't be matched by another race (oh thank god!). Ogres are a bit less xenophobic than Orcs but also consider themselves to be superior to other races (on several different levels). Also other humanoids would most likely avoid intimate contact with an Ogre, mostly out of self-preservation. While not as well known as Trolls for their tendency to eat other races, Ogre's were responsable for the introduction of HEHE meat (a mixture of Human, High Elf, Wood Elf and Dwarf parts) and there were quests to deliver the stuff to Chef Clurg in Oggok back in EQ1. Oh, and Bumba's Gnome Pickles used real Gnome back in the day. Nobody eats Girl Scout Cookies in Norrath, either your too afraid of the possible ingredients or terribly disappointed.</p><p>Fae are probably the only race not capable of cross breeding on Norrath. Simply put, they don't sexually reproduce and only have genders at the whim of Tunare. Iksar and Sarnak are both egg laying races. It may not be possible for them to normally reproduce with other non-egg laying species on Norrath without magical assistance. Then again, all it takes is one Dev story or quest and then use your own imagination to fill in the details because I don't want to think about it.</p><p>Welcome to Norrath, check your science at the door!</p>

Cusashorn
12-02-2009, 01:40 AM
<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Even worse, there are Lore refrences of Tier'dal being able to impregnate halflings. Halflings! So Halflings are Elves too? Really?</p></blockquote><p>Wait, what?</p></blockquote><p>Guess you didn't do a lot of the newbie quests in Nerriak back in EQ1? The Assassin's Guildmaster sends young Tier'Dal to assassinate a young lady with the last name Hunnyjam in the Misty Thicket as she poses a threat to the crown. After you complete the assassination mission the guild leader reveals that the only reason he had her assassinated is that he got her pregnate during an undercover mission in Rivervale.</p><p>So yeah, Tier'dal can impregnate halflings without magical assistance or this guy wouldn't be worried enough to have her assassinated. And this is an old, old quest. Pre-velious at least.</p></blockquote><p>huh.</p><p>I never really played evil characters that much. Never heard of that.</p>

DukeOccam
12-02-2009, 05:06 AM
<p>I think that quest was removed shortly after the whole Mystere debacle.Someone wrote a fanfic that was pretty graphic, involving Dark Elf girl "of barely 14 seasons." He was banned from EQ and there was a huge uproar. You can find the story on Encyclopedia Dramatica. Personally I think the worst part of it is just going into too much detail in a couple places (depending on how you interpret the "14 seasons" thing).Anyway, the story goes that sometime after that they wanted to "clean up" EQ a bit or something.</p>

Vaedaer
12-02-2009, 06:40 AM
<p>I've always thought that all the warm blooded races can bred with one another /shrug, I can't see an iksar/frog/sarnak breeding with one of the mammals tho.</p><p>Edit: oh Meirril had mentioned this already, doh xp</p>

Meirril
12-02-2009, 09:17 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think that quest was removed shortly after the whole Mystere debacle.Someone wrote a fanfic that was pretty graphic, involving Dark Elf girl "of barely 14 seasons." He was banned from EQ and there was a huge uproar. You can find the story on Encyclopedia Dramatica. Personally I think the worst part of it is just going into too much detail in a couple places (depending on how you interpret the "14 seasons" thing).Anyway, the story goes that sometime after that they wanted to "clean up" EQ a bit or something.</p></blockquote><p>According to the comments on Allakhazam the quest has been removed. Pity.</p><p><a href="http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=166" target="_blank">Link to the Allakhazam write up</a>.</p>