The probem with PvP (As I see it)... [Archive]

Paikis

11-07-2009, 02:24 PM

... is gear. Specifically gear with procs.If Im playing a healer, I stack up on power procs which let me heal forever (or atleast a until a scout drains my power to nothing... which is another proc). If Im playing a scout, I stack up on gear with procs that let me trigger extra damage. If im playing a mage, I stack up on damage procs. It I'm playing a tank, i stack up on damage and heal/ward procs. If I'm trying to killa healer, I want either damage procs or power drain procs.Procs procs procs and more procs.The major problem with gear also comes down to procs. Zarakon's belt for healers, various damage procs for DPS classes, ward proc gear (byzola) for tanks and other gear that isnt available except via raiding. All of it is about procs. Its letting classes do things taht their class shouldnt do.Priests are getting better power regen than enchanters and bards. Tanks are doing more DPS than wizards/scouts. Bards can do more DPS than DPS classes. Assasins are healing for more than some priests and Brigands are out-DPSing everything.All of it is due to procs. Completely remove procs from PvP and what are you left with? Healers heal, tanks taunt and take hits and DPS classes are the only ones with any real DPS. Enchanters and Bards are the onyl ones who can regenerate power.We currently have class sets. Change the set bonuses to enhance certain classes abilities. Bard set bonuses give bonuses to thier buffs, tank set bonuses enhance their taunts, reducing recast or increasing duration of locks. Healer gear would reduce power cost or increase heal amount. DPS gear would increase DPS. Assasin set gear, instead of having a proc 2 times per minute for 1000 damage, would increase the damage of a combat art that is up twice a minute by 1000, or a CA that is up 4 times a minute by 500. Instead of giving a 1000pt ward 2.0 times per minute, increase a heal by 250 if it can be cast 4 times a minute.EDIT) everytime you see someone complain about rangers its because their bow shots triggered OVER NINE THOUSAND! damage procs. Its because those damage procs dont scale in PvP. Everytime you hear about healers who cant be killed, its heal procs or power procs. Every time you hear about wardens who can't ever run out of power... its their myth PROC. Everytime you see Exile's complaining about PvP gear, its (surprise!) related to the procs on the PvP gear.There are many different ways of doing this, but i think tha major message here is...Remove all procs from PvP combat in '09.

Ahlana

11-07-2009, 02:31 PM

Though for the most part it sounds excellent and it might work.. It would also cripple a few classes. But I'd give it a whirl <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Paikis

11-07-2009, 02:39 PM

When I said all procs, I meant gear-related procs.Scout poisons would not be included, nor woud class-specific procs such as Perfection fo the Maestro, Requiem of Reflection, Cacophony of Blades etc.

Ahlana

11-07-2009, 02:41 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I said all procs, I meant gear-related procs.Scout poisons would not be included, now woud class-specific procs such as Perfection fo the Maestro, Requiem of Reflection, Cacophony of Blades etc.</blockquote>Am I so transparent?Though you are right you did say gear with procs.. I misread it to mean all procs.

Paikis

11-07-2009, 02:53 PM

I should have specified. Anyhow, the idea is to reduce the amount of calls made, thereby reducing the amount of lag, and reducing overlap in classes. You can use things like +base damage to combat art X or spell X to increase damage just as effectively as giving us a proc, and doing it this way would (unless I'm mistaken) reduce the amount of lag.I dont want to be playing a guardian that can heal for 400 hps. i want to be playing a guardian that can taunt like a mofo and has a heaer friend to keep him alive. I don't want to be playing a healer that never runs our of power (lol mental breach lol), I want to be playing a healer that heals and has an enchanter (or bard) supplying me with power to keep healing. I dont want detaunt procs, I want a tank that can taunt more often, with longer taunt locks. I dont want to be playing a mage where the majority of my damage comes from procs. I want to be playing a wizard where my nukes are the biggest in the game and have a meaningful effect. I dont want to be playing a healer that only survives because my jewelery happened to proc a ward at the right time. I want to be playing a healer than can out-heal the damage im taking.Procs are the debul!

Cloakentuna

11-07-2009, 04:07 PM

Yes!Lets remove survivability procs for mages so they can get steamrolled by the rediculous auto attack and CA damage! Great idea!

Ahlana

11-07-2009, 04:17 PM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes!Lets remove survivability procs for mages so they can get steamrolled by the rediculous auto attack and CA damage! Great idea!</blockquote>Techinically isn't that the way it is "suppose" to work. With the archtypes designed the way they are PVP is definently designed to be group based. Will something like this hurt the solo player? Sure but that is the chance you take being solo. Effectively this would be throwing us back into KoS days. Before procs truly got out of hand. /shrugI liked KoS PVP :p

Enoe

11-07-2009, 04:19 PM

Nah there is some truth in it but in most case i disagree.Gear gives many many classes chance to stand as equal to other classes they could never beat.And as far as ur logic goes every 1 should do pvp only in stacked grps so all class primary abilities would be used. in solo situation:Tanks w/o heal/ward and low dps but with huge taunts would be easy pray for all dps classes and most of healers.Healers w/o dmg/power/heal procs will die like flys to scouts and magesMages will be completly destroyed by scoutsScouts - again would be again unstopable killers of all. Everscout again? IMO NO!!!!Edit: In 1 topik Paikis is looking for new gear with procs in other he want all procs to be removed - u really got bored <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

rvc

11-07-2009, 04:20 PM

In addition how bout we remove Crit mit so scouts can be scout like again and deal mass dps up front, to make up for having the worst pvp surviveability in game, next to conjy, and Coercer of course, but hey they can deal dmg from a safe distance.

MokiCh

11-07-2009, 05:00 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>... is gear. Specifically gear with procs.If Im playing a healer, I stack up on power procs which let me heal forever (or atleast a until a scout drains my power to nothing... which is another proc). If Im playing a scout, I stack up on gear with procs that let me trigger extra damage. If im playing a mage, I stack up on damage procs. It I'm playing a tank, i stack up on damage and heal/ward procs. If I'm trying to killa healer, I want either damage procs or power drain procs.Procs procs procs and more procs.The major problem with gear also comes down to procs. Zarakon's belt for healers, various damage procs for DPS classes, ward proc gear (byzola) for tanks and other gear that isnt available except via raiding. All of it is about procs. Its letting classes do things taht their class shouldnt do.Priests are getting better power regen than enchanters and bards. Tanks are doing more DPS than wizards/scouts. Bards can do more DPS than DPS classes. Assasins are healing for more than some priests and Brigands are out-DPSing everything.All of it is due to procs. Completely remove procs from PvP and what are you left with? Healers heal, tanks taunt and take hits and DPS classes are the only ones with any real DPS. Enchanters and Bards are the onyl ones who can regenerate power.We currently have class sets. Change the set bonuses to enhance certain classes abilities. Bard set bonuses give bonuses to thier buffs, tank set bonuses enhance their taunts, reducing recast or increasing duration of locks. Healer gear would reduce power cost or increase heal amount. DPS gear would increase DPS. Assasin set gear, instead of having a proc 2 times per minute for 1000 damage, would increase the damage of a combat art that is up twice a minute by 1000, or a CA that is up 4 times a minute by 500. Instead of giving a 1000pt ward 2.0 times per minute, increase a heal by 250 if it can be cast 4 times a minute.EDIT) everytime you see someone complain about rangers its because their bow shots triggered OVER NINE THOUSAND! damage procs. Its because those damage procs dont scale in PvP. Everytime you hear about healers who cant be killed, its heal procs or power procs. Every time you hear about wardens who can't ever run out of power... its their myth PROC. Everytime you see Exile's complaining about PvP gear, its (surprise!) related to the procs on the PvP gear.There are many different ways of doing this, but i think tha major message here is...Remove all procs from PvP combat in '09.</blockquote>I kind of like this idea. Now they just need to have more open dungeons in T9 instead of a bajillion instances and we'd be set.

Cloakentuna

11-07-2009, 05:10 PM

<cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes!Lets remove survivability procs for mages so they can get steamrolled by the rediculous auto attack and CA damage! Great idea!</blockquote>Techinically isn't that the way it is "suppose" to work. With the archtypes designed the way they are PVP is definently designed to be group based. Will something like this hurt the solo player? Sure but that is the chance you take being solo. Effectively this would be throwing us back into KoS days. Before procs truly got out of hand. /shrugI liked KoS PVP :p</blockquote>Back in KoS auto attack damage wasn't anywhere near as much as it is now in comparison

Ahlana

11-07-2009, 06:26 PM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ahlana wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes!Lets remove survivability procs for mages so they can get steamrolled by the rediculous auto attack and CA damage! Great idea!</blockquote>Techinically isn't that the way it is "suppose" to work. With the archtypes designed the way they are PVP is definently designed to be group based. Will something like this hurt the solo player? Sure but that is the chance you take being solo. Effectively this would be throwing us back into KoS days. Before procs truly got out of hand. /shrugI liked KoS PVP :p</blockquote>Back in KoS auto attack damage wasn't anywhere near as much as it is now in comparison</blockquote>It might not be that way next expansion with the way things are looking .. but you are correct it wasn't that bad in KoS

Fin

11-07-2009, 07:44 PM

Would pretty much make scouts, brawlers and healers unkillable leaving only other mages and most guardians. Then you have manashield which is easily defeatable but being on the side that is outnumbered at the moment would be risky to even engage for fear of getting called out. Pretty much narrows my prospects down to summoners. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Paikis

11-07-2009, 09:01 PM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes!Lets remove survivability procs for mages so they can get steamrolled by the rediculous auto attack and CA damage! Great idea!</blockquote>What procs do you have that are keeping you alive through a scout's DPS? Because I must be missing them on my mages. If you're talking about Dispersion all I have to say is LOL!There's no reason that auto-attack damage should be stupid huge in the next expansion either. Absolutely no reason why they couldn't half all auto-attack damage, remove or reduce the effects of DPS mod in PvP. Heck they could just cut all PvP damage (and heals) by 3/4, quadrupling everyone's effective hitpoints in pvp. No reason why mages couldn't get a clicky (clicky != proc) on their robe which reduces all incoming physical damage by 75% for 10 seconds. Heck, take a page out of DnD's spellbook. Immunity to mundane weapons or immunity to magical weapons. Only one allowed to be active, 1 minute recast time on them. Yes, it'd mean that melee classes have to carry around 2 sets of weapons, but they can hot-swap them in pvp. I remember someone coined the phrase 'Immunity from God' on a forum about Baldur's Gate II because mages could literally make themselves invincible for a long time.Thing is, everyone complains about lag, which is made worse by... procs.Raiders complain about PvP gear and how it is OP because of the... procs.PvPers complain about raid gear and how it is OP because of the... procs.Everyone complains about the healers they can't kill, who are keeping themselves alive by... procs.Ranger's hitting 1 CA and landing 12 different hits on someone? ... procs.Tanks that just don't die ever, Shadowknights and Paladins in particular... procs.The fact that power drains are all but useless unless you're using mental breach... procs.Dispersion/Displacement making sorcerers invincible for 30 seconds while manashield was up... procs.Thorny/Heelo taking on whole groups by himself.... n00bs... i mean procs.Are we seeing a pattern here?

Faenril

11-07-2009, 10:02 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>What procs do you have that are keeping you alive through a scout's DPS? Because I must be missing them on my mages. If you're talking about Dispersion all I have to say is LOL!</blockquote>Transposition from Gynok's ring.Displacement form Druushk's ring or robe from Hoshkar.Byzola ring.Xebnok wrist.Pvp wrist.PvP 2 set bonus.MC symbol with ward proc.Collection ear from Najena/DF (I forgot the name).Might consider all snare/root/stun/stiffle/mesmerize/fear procs as survivability tools also as they can prevent dps, and there are countless of those.You say mages spec for dps but I do way better when I spec for survivability procs in pvp.

Paikis

11-08-2009, 03:29 AM

<cite>Naemesis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Transposition from Gynok's ring.Displacement form Druushk's ring or robe from Hoshkar.Byzola ring.Xebnok wrist.Pvp wrist.PvP 2 set bonus.MC symbol with ward proc.Collection ear from Najena/DF (I forgot the name).Might consider all snare/root/stun/stiffle/mesmerize/fear procs as survivability tools also as they can prevent dps, and there are countless of those.You say mages spec for dps but I do way better when I spec for survivability procs in pvp.</blockquote>All of the above simply outline the truth of what Ive said in the OP. All those procs enabling a mage to live far longer than they otherwise would. Incidently, a large number of those listed are only available through raids. Mages are supposed to be glass cannons but through procs, they've been made into cast iron cannons.

tullebukk

11-08-2009, 05:40 AM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote> Every time you hear about wardens who can't ever run out of power... its their myth PROC.</blockquote>Youre still complaining about this? Comeon, We already agreed in 2 other threads that warden mythical is just very nice when we are grouped. Solo its nothing at all.

Faenril

11-08-2009, 06:05 AM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Naemesis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Transposition from Gynok's ring.Displacement form Druushk's ring or robe from Hoshkar.Byzola ring.Xebnok wrist.Pvp wrist.PvP 2 set bonus.MC symbol with ward proc.Collection ear from Najena/DF (I forgot the name).Might consider all snare/root/stun/stiffle/mesmerize/fear procs as survivability tools also as they can prevent dps, and there are countless of those.You say mages spec for dps but I do way better when I spec for survivability procs in pvp.</blockquote>All of the above simply outline the truth of what Ive said in the OP. All those procs enabling a mage to live far longer than they otherwise would. Incidently, a large number of those listed are only available through raids. Mages are supposed to be glass cannons but through procs, they've been made into cast iron cannons.</blockquote>Yes but the question is: is that a bad thing ?Without all these procs, most classes could never do "what they are not supposed to do". Classes would be pigeonholed in only 1 role and the stone/scissor/paper scheme that govern the classes would be set in stone.Honnestly I can't make my mind if I like your idea or not. Plenty of procs are stupidly OP in pvp and need to be addressed somehow, this I fully agree with, but I'm not sure erasing them all is the right answer. I see positive and negative aspects in your proposed solution.

Natthan

11-08-2009, 06:18 AM

<cite>Naemesis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Naemesis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Transposition from Gynok's ring.Displacement form Druushk's ring or robe from Hoshkar.Byzola ring.Xebnok wrist.Pvp wrist.PvP 2 set bonus.MC symbol with ward proc.Collection ear from Najena/DF (I forgot the name).Might consider all snare/root/stun/stiffle/mesmerize/fear procs as survivability tools also as they can prevent dps, and there are countless of those.You say mages spec for dps but I do way better when I spec for survivability procs in pvp.</blockquote>All of the above simply outline the truth of what Ive said in the OP. All those procs enabling a mage to live far longer than they otherwise would. Incidently, a large number of those listed are only available through raids. Mages are supposed to be glass cannons but through procs, they've been made into cast iron cannons.</blockquote>Yes but the question is: is that a bad thing ?Without all these procs, most classes could never do "what they are not supposed to do". Classes would be pigeonholed in only 1 role and the stone/scissor/paper scheme that govern the classes would be set in stone.Honnestly I can't make my mind if I like your idea or not. Plenty of procs are stupidly OP in pvp and need to be addressed somehow, this I fully agree with, but I'm not sure erasing them all is the right answer. I see positive and negative aspects in your proposed solution.</blockquote>QFT. Though it may fix some issue but it would make a lot of classes sitting ducks basically.

MokiCh

11-08-2009, 07:51 AM

Well cutting down on gear procs would certainly help the lag (if that's what's causing it, or contributing to it). And yes, a lot of gear procs are stupidly OP. However, as a whole, I woulnd't really mind if we moved back towards a more rock/paper/scissors sort of balance. Not that class X should always beat class Y without even trying, but that each class is good at something, and not so good at something else. Today, it's more like a lot of classes are good at everything, but REALLY good at one thing.I agree with Paikis that a lot of the procs can be changed into straight damage/mitigation/heal/whatever increases without really any loss. But what worries me is the procs that aren't as straightforward. My Ranger's myth procs an effect on me that let's me use less arrows, which I love because of the sheer amount of arrows I can burn through in a night. But how would you translate something like this into a constant effect? Every other auto attack I don't use an arrow? What about the ward proc on Venril's Guard? A chance of a 700 point ward on a successful block is hardly OP, but you can't just change it to add 700 to my normal wards, because I don't get any. But if you were to remove it, what would you replace it with? A straight mitigation increase?In general I think cutting down on procs is a good idea, but you'd have to be careful with how you do it.

PeaSy1

11-08-2009, 08:53 AM

Even though their is some truth and viability to the argument, its a null point. The next expac is gonna do the same thing as previous lvl cap raising expacs. Gear is gonna be more stat based and procs wont reshow power till towards end when new zones get released (example soh) and following expac. The one problem i see currently is the crit mit factor. Why does critical damage get removed/mitigated where as heal crit does not get toned when fighting someone that is "crit mit gimped". Dumbed down for the common idiot if i cant crit on some healer cause he has crit mit their is no reason why a healer should be critically healing against noncritting damage.

Cloakentuna

11-08-2009, 04:19 PM

Tell you what. Fix resist rates (currently being looked at I've been told), and fix the insane auto attack damage, and then come talk to me about removing these procs. Until then, [Removed for Content].

Natthan

11-08-2009, 05:43 PM

Crit mit was implemented as a PvE Mechanic, Why on earth would they make mobs not crit by wearing it and then if they are make heals not crit, Would take you back to square one. Thats why heals still crit in PvP, Purely from the PvE Mechanic

Paikis

11-08-2009, 06:45 PM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tell you what. Fix resist rates (currently being looked at I've been told), and fix the insane auto attack damage, and then come talk to me about removing these procs. Until then, [Removed for Content].</blockquote>So basically what you're saying is 'Nuh uh!'Resists suck, so we shouldn't fix a broken mechanic? Auto-attack sucks, so we shouldn't fix procs?Just because something else is broken is no reason not tofix procs. If things worked like that then nothing would ever get fixed because there will always be something that isn't working correctly. In the current system, procs are stupid OP and cause lag.

Cloakentuna

11-08-2009, 07:06 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tell you what. Fix resist rates (currently being looked at I've been told), and fix the insane auto attack damage, and then come talk to me about removing these procs. Until then, [Removed for Content].</blockquote>So basically what you're saying is 'Nuh uh!'Resists suck, so we shouldn't fix a broken mechanic? Auto-attack sucks, so we shouldn't fix procs?Just because something else is broken is no reason not tofix procs. If things worked like that then nothing would ever get fixed because there will always be something that isn't working correctly. In the current system, procs are stupid OP and cause lag.</blockquote>Resists and Auto-attacks directly lead to melee/ranger dominated PvP. With the introduction of dispersion and ward procs, mages became not as squishy. Take away the stoneskins and wards before you FIX the resists and mages get destroyed in PvP, and not even in just solo PvP.

Natthan

11-08-2009, 07:31 PM

Honestly I think this is Paikis crusade to nerf raid gear because he can no longer get in guilds that can do good stuff anymore. Just a guess!

Jeht

11-09-2009, 12:11 AM

Paikis

11-09-2009, 04:33 AM

<cite>EnvoyofBCD wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly I think this is Paikis crusade to nerf raid gear because he can no longer get in guilds that can do good stuff anymore. Just a guess!</blockquote>And I think you're on a crusade to keep your BS overpowered procs. Also, LOLONYXLOL. I have my fair share of nice procs on my toons TYVM.This idea is hardly new, <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=452906" target="_blank">looky</a>.Rune Etched Helm + Ethereal Mist Gauntlets can contribute up to a third of my healing on group fights.Blackened Band of Devastation procs for 4k in PvP.Girdle of Mistmyrian Legacy can keep an entire group full on power forever.Hoop of Vampiric Celerity can heal for almost as much as the Rune Etched Helm... and you can wear em both at the same time.Bangle of the Blood Symphony triggers for 1.5k damage, PLUS a 1k heal, PLUS another 1k heal on a 10% chance everytime your target takes damage for the next 15 seconds... and the trigger rate is often enough that you could keep the effect on your target pretty much constantly in PvP.Bandolier of Sacred Blood procs a 1-1.5k nuke and heal on any attack.Bloodquench, Bow of Borrowed Time, also, 1-1.5k nuke and heal.Thats just the items off Zarakon and out of Shard of Hate. I agree with the psoter above who talked about Mythicals... I don't think they should have their procs removed (not that any of my classes get anything great lol!), but EVERYTHING else should.Think about this, lets take a look at my templar's gear. Rune Etched Helm. I cast a group heal. Check Player_1, did it trigger? Check player_2, did it trigger? Check Player_3, did it trigger? Check player_4, did it trigger? Check Player_5, did it trigger? Check player_6, did it trigger? 6 checks made every time I cast a group spell, for 1 item. But then I wear 4 pieces of manawell gear. Thats another 24 checks for casting a single group heal. Ethereal Mist Gauntlets, another 6 checks, PvP Breastplate, another 6 checks, PvP 4 set bonus, another 6 checks. Mythical proc, another 6 checks. Claymore, another 6. Radiance, Censor of Protection... another 6. Totem of the Ankexfen, another 6. Pondwash belt, 6 more. Charm from Kurn's another 6 checks.My wrists and 5 pieces of armor dont have procs, but everything else I wear has a proc on beneficial/heal spells. I cast 1 group heal and thats 84 checks to see if things proc. Similar sort of thing when I get hit also. 2 different ward procs might go off, i might fear you, i might drop your target, I might drain your power, i might heal myself.This sort of thing adds up fast, especially when everyone has access to this gear. I would bet alot of toons have procs on atleast half of their gear. You want to help lag? Start with procs. You want to make PvP easier to balance? Start with procs.Also, I looked through the first 10 pages of threads.... didn't find what I was looking for, but there were some old threads there. I was looking for a post someone made accusing Pudan of hacking, i believe it was something like 12 procs from a single auto-attack? Does no one else see a problem with this?

Natthan

11-09-2009, 04:51 AM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EnvoyofBCD wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly I think this is Paikis crusade to nerf raid gear because he can no longer get in guilds that can do good stuff anymore. Just a guess!</blockquote>And I think you're on a crusade to keep your BS overpowered procs. Also, LOLONYXLOL. I have my fair share of nice procs on my toons TYVM.This idea is hardly new, <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=452906" target="_blank">looky</a>.Rune Etched Helm + Ethereal Mist Gauntlets can contribute up to a third of my healing on group fights.Blackened Band of Devastation procs for 4k in PvP.Girdle of Mistmyrian Legacy can keep an entire group full on power forever.Hoop of Vampiric Celerity can heal for almost as much as the Rune Etched Helm... and you can wear em both at the same time.Bangle of the Blood Symphony triggers for 1.5k damage, PLUS a 1k heal, PLUS another 1k heal on a 10% chance everytime your target takes damage for the next 15 seconds... and the trigger rate is often enough that you could keep the effect on your target pretty much constantly in PvP.Bandolier of Sacred Blood procs a 1-1.5k nuke and heal on any attack.Bloodquench, Bow of Borrowed Time, also, 1-1.5k nuke and heal.Thats just the items off Zarakon and out of Shard of Hate. I agree with the psoter above who talked about Mythicals... I don't think they should have their procs removed (not that any of my classes get anything great lol!), but EVERYTHING else should.Think about this, lets take a look at my templar's gear. Rune Etched Helm. I cast a group heal. Check Player_1, did it trigger? Check player_2, did it trigger? Check Player_3, did it trigger? Check player_4, did it trigger? Check Player_5, did it trigger? Check player_6, did it trigger? 6 checks made every time I cast a group spell, for 1 item. But then I wear 4 pieces of manawell gear. Thats another 24 checks for casting a single group heal. Ethereal Mist Gauntlets, another 6 checks, PvP Breastplate, another 6 checks, PvP 4 set bonus, another 6 checks. Mythical proc, another 6 checks. Claymore, another 6. Radiance, Censor of Protection... another 6. Totem of the Ankexfen, another 6. Pondwash belt, 6 more. Charm from Kurn's another 6 checks.My wrists and 5 pieces of armor dont have procs, but everything else I wear has a proc on beneficial/heal spells. I cast 1 group heal and thats 84 checks to see if things proc. Similar sort of thing when I get hit also. 2 different ward procs might go off, i might fear you, i might drop your target, I might drain your power, i might heal myself.This sort of thing adds up fast, especially when everyone has access to this gear. I would bet alot of toons have procs on atleast half of their gear. You want to help lag? Start with procs. You want to make PvP easier to balance? Start with procs.Also, I looked through the first 10 pages of threads.... didn't find what I was looking for, but there were some old threads there. I was looking for a post someone made accusing Pudan of hacking, i believe it was something like 12 procs from a single auto-attack? Does no one else see a problem with this?</blockquote>The only OP Proc for PvP I have on my toon is FBH, and if you don't think templar Myth is anything special in PvP I laugh. That proc almost completely nullifies stun cloak, Which is really annoying if your not immune with no pots up, but you probally take the forgranted.Also, Rangers basically frontload procs because of the delay on bows. So if you load up with procs just about everything with proc BUT the delay on the weapon is pretty long so its a trade off, it balances out pretty much compared to other scouts/mages.

MokiCh

11-09-2009, 06:01 AM

I remember that post. Proc chances are normalised with regards to weapon delay, so weapons with a slower delay have a higher chance to proc on each auto attack. It does make noobs rage about Rangers when they get hit by an auto attack, 10 things proc and half their life is gone, but we do pay for it by having a delay of 7-9 seconds on any bow worth using (9 seconds on myth), plus it's a lot harder to find gear that procs on ranged attacks. Now if we had proc chances like that on a 4 sec delay weapon, then I'd agree something's wrong. But as it is now there's nothing wrong with the proc chances on longer delay weapons.

Paikis

11-09-2009, 06:18 AM

<cite>MokiChan wrote:</cite><blockquote>I remember that post. Proc chances are normalised with regards to weapon delay, so weapons with a slower delay have a higher chance to proc on each auto attack. It does make noobs rage about Rangers when they get hit by an auto attack, 10 things proc and half their life is gone, but we do pay for it by having a delay of 7-9 seconds on any bow worth using (9 seconds on myth), plus it's a lot harder to find gear that procs on ranged attacks. Now if we had proc chances like that on a 4 sec delay weapon, then I'd agree something's wrong. But as it is now there's nothing wrong with the proc chances on longer delay weapons.</blockquote>I'm well aware how procs work. And I'm sure Trilli was talking about procs from any kind of attack (when he says on attack, i figure he meant any kind of attack) not just the ones from rangers. Thing is that Im seeing 3-4 procs triggering off melee auto-attacks as well. Spells too.

YasikoSetsu

11-09-2009, 06:31 AM

Faenril

11-09-2009, 07:01 AM

When writs got introduced KP dock AOE-fest lagged the server though ppl didn't have half as many procs as today. While procs probably contribute to the lag, there must be other factors involved. Only the devs can tell for sure, assuming they would bother looking into this ofc. Until then it's just assumptions/speculation. I doubt lag is a valid reason to remove content though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Natthan

11-09-2009, 07:27 AM

What needs to be done to fix the lag is to move all toon inactive for over a year to a special database/server that they can pull the info back off of within a few hours to reduce the database clutter. That would do so much more then removing procs.

PeaSy1

11-09-2009, 09:01 AM

<cite>EnvoyofBCD wrote:</cite><blockquote>Crit mit was implemented as a PvE Mechanic, Why on earth would they make mobs not crit by wearing it and then if they are make heals not crit, Would take you back to square one. Thats why heals still crit in PvP, Purely from the PvE Mechanic</blockquote>i really really hope ur being sarcastic here.Crit mit works differnent from pvp to pve why couldnt heal crit be altered in this sense?

max.power

11-09-2009, 09:16 AM

<cite>EnvoyofBCD wrote:</cite><blockquote>What needs to be done to fix the lag is to move all toon inactive for over a year to a special database/server that they can pull the info back off of within a few hours to reduce the database clutter. That would do so much more then removing procs.</blockquote>Inactive player characters just use some space in the database but don't generate any database queries and/or network traffic, so they don't contribute to the lag.

Enoe

11-09-2009, 11:35 AM

<cite></cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite>Now that that's out of the way, imagine a shadowknight hitting Grave sacrament (or any class htting a blue with a high amount of max targets)</blockquote>It works like this: Every pieces of jewelery i have (10 items) have proc or 2. Now sk self buff = 3 procs. If im in grp i will have buffed procs form grp members lets say 1 dmg shield from caster 1 from healer, Aria of magic. Above it some short timers CoB, PotM, and so on. Grave Sacrament is perfect in zerg fest - hits up to 24 targets <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Basically it means 1 spell = 24x15(up to 20) procs = 360-480 checksBut i think problem doesnt lie there. We had almost 2010 year and for god sake servers/databases should be up to this date. Knowing how it looks from hardware side (working in Ibm server factory) since lunch of eq2 till now there was 2 whole new generations of servers with another comming next year. I bet sony still uses one from 2004...

YasikoSetsu

11-09-2009, 12:11 PM

<cite>EnvoyofBCD wrote:</cite><blockquote>What needs to be done to fix the lag is to move all toon inactive for over a year to a special database/server that they can pull the info back off of within a few hours to reduce the database clutter. That would do so much more then removing procs.</blockquote>I don't think un-used toons have much at all to do with the spell lag in the zerg fest, but I could be wrong I guess. /Shrug.<cite>Renoe wrote:</cite> <blockquote>We had almost 2010 year and for god sake servers/databases should be up to this date. </blockquote> I can definitely agree with that.

Azol

11-09-2009, 12:17 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>All of it is about procs. Its letting classes do things taht their class shouldnt do.</blockquote>Now I really can see that you are bored (and why). I, for one, enjoy doing things that my class isn't supposed to do. Because it's fun.<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Completely remove procs from PvP</blockquote>Instead of continuing posting ideas like "Completely remove **this-and-that** from PVP", try to figure out the ways how to make it work without removing. Dumbing down the game is a way to go... for you, it seems.SOE getting better/faster servers = YESSOE removing anything from game because it has negative impact on performance = NO.I hope you got it.

Faenril

11-09-2009, 12:42 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Naemesis@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Transposition from Gynok's ring.Displacement form Druushk's ring or robe from Hoshkar.Byzola ring.Xebnok wrist.Pvp wrist.PvP 2 set bonus.MC symbol with ward proc.Collection ear from Najena/DF (I forgot the name).Might consider all snare/root/stun/stiffle/mesmerize/fear procs as survivability tools also as they can prevent dps, and there are countless of those.You say mages spec for dps but I do way better when I spec for survivability procs in pvp.</blockquote>All of the above simply outline the truth of what Ive said in the OP. All those procs enabling a mage to live far longer than they otherwise would. Incidently, a large number of those listed are only available through raids. Mages are supposed to be glass cannons but through procs, they've been made into cast iron cannons.</blockquote>Also one more thing about your "glass cannon" vs "cast iron cannon"...Quite a few items listed above offer very little or no mage dps stat at all, let alone damage procs... Several of them are designed for tanks, which means the mage is giving up a good chunk of dps for survivability. So the glass cannon should be much more lethal than the "cast iron cannon". I see that as rather balanced.Even if procs didn't exist mages who want to gear like tanks still could and they would simply pick gear with HP, mitigation and avoidance stats.Now I will agree that the best stoneskin items being only available through raiding is kinda silly, but is that a good reason to remove all procs alltogether ? Wouldn't it be better to add some stoneskin jewelry or some survivability oriented armor sets to the pvp merchant for example, so that ppl get more pvp rewards to pick from, and more gear options ?

MokiCh

11-09-2009, 01:08 PM

<cite>Enoe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite>Now that that's out of the way, imagine a shadowknight hitting Grave sacrament (or any class htting a blue with a high amount of max targets)</blockquote>It works like this: Every pieces of jewelery i have (10 items) have proc or 2. Now sk self buff = 3 procs. If im in grp i will have buffed procs form grp members lets say 1 dmg shield from caster 1 from healer, Aria of magic. Above it some short timers CoB, PotM, and so on. Grave Sacrament is perfect in zerg fest - hits up to 24 targets <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Basically it means 1 spell = 24x15(up to 20) procs = 360-480 checksBut i think problem doesnt lie there. We had almost 2010 year and for god sake servers/databases should be up to this date. Knowing how it looks from hardware side (working in Ibm server factory) since lunch of eq2 till now there was 2 whole new generations of servers with another comming next year. I bet sony still uses one from 2004...</blockquote>The problem (if indeed the lag problem is caused by procs and not something else) would not be reducable to the relatively simple one of how many checks the system has to do. Simply performing all those checks would be trivial even for completely outdated hardware. What could affect the performance we see on our end is transit time. If, for each of those checks, your machine has to send a packet to the server and then get a response so you can see the results, that time that those packets spend traveling to and from the server dwarfs the time spent actually computing the results. To give an example, my ping usually hovers around 250, meaning I have a round trip time of roughly 1/4 of a second for packets. If you have to send one packet for each proc check, the total response time for that would be (250 x number of targets x number of procs)ms. To use the number for grave sacrament given above, that would be 250 x 480 = 120000ms = 120s = 2min, which is a little on the high end, but on the really high population days I've actually approached this number at times.If this is the case, neither your machine nor the server's computing power has anything to do with the lag. Of course, I don't know how these things are handled internally so I might be completely wrong. Do we actually have some redname statements that say that procs are the cause of, or a significant contributor to, the lag, or is this all just player side speculation?

Hilt

11-09-2009, 01:20 PM

The problem with PVP isnt gear, its a sense of progression or a lack there in.The game has 3 forms of progression content...: Quests, Tradeskilling, and PVP.We can't easily quest without getting ganked ALL the time, especially when quest givers/updaters have no immunity around them and are camped. There SHOULD be alternative hubs to get updates for quests, such as implementing some form of quest liason in a major city. I dont mind if people PVP but everyone should have a choice of whether or not to participate...a quest liason can do that for a small ingame fee of ten gold or tier it to the difficult of the questsThe same is true of tradeskill hubs such as Teren's Grasp, which has the epic crafting timeline deeply interwoven with TG, and subsequently is now a MASSIVE ZERG of lag and problematic instantsing when rally flags are used to try and get to TG and half ( or some equivalent percentage... ) ends up in KP3 while the rest are in KP1. If people zone using rally flags they should automatically go to the zone the first person chose REGARDLESS if they mistakenly choose a different instantiation of KP...And while I like the idea of "capture the flag" it shouldnt be encouraged for camping / griefing.And as for PVP itself, it's not really PVP. Its "Who has the best gear/adornments today?". I approve of one-on-one, but six-on-one is hmm problematic. PVP should be about strategy and good planning, not the "fish in a barrel" logic like people taking their 14s to Oakmyst Forest waiting for the 9s to pop over to 10.And for Pete's sake, get RID of the all night long AFKers who are desperate to maintain their titles, which have ZERO meaning in the first place. If they dont use their keyboard or mouse for 15 minutes, boot their butt to the login screen.

YasikoSetsu

11-09-2009, 02:37 PM

<cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with PVP isnt gear, its a sense of progression or a lack there in.The game has 3 forms of progression content...: Quests, Tradeskilling, and PVP.We can't easily quest without getting ganked ALL the time, especially when quest givers/updaters have no immunity around them and are camped. There SHOULD be alternative hubs to get updates for quests, such as implementing some form of quest liason in a major city. I dont mind if people PVP but everyone should have a choice of whether or not to participate...a quest liason can do that for a small ingame fee of ten gold or tier it to the difficult of the questsThe same is true of tradeskill hubs such as Teren's Grasp, which has the epic crafting timeline deeply interwoven with TG, and subsequently is now a MASSIVE ZERG of lag and problematic instantsing when rally flags are used to try and get to TG and half ( or some equivalent percentage... ) ends up in KP3 while the rest are in KP1. If people zone using rally flags they should automatically go to the zone the first person chose REGARDLESS if they mistakenly choose a different instantiation of KP...And while I like the idea of "capture the flag" it shouldnt be encouraged for camping / griefing.And as for PVP itself, it's not really PVP. Its "Who has the best gear/adornments today?". I approve of one-on-one, but six-on-one is hmm problematic. PVP should be about strategy and good planning, not the "fish in a barrel" logic like people taking their 14s to Oakmyst Forest waiting for the 9s to pop over to 10.And for Pete's sake, get RID of the all night long AFKers who are desperate to maintain their titles, which have ZERO meaning in the first place. If they dont use their keyboard or mouse for 15 minutes, boot their butt to the login screen.</blockquote>Are you serious? The official forums language filter does not allow me to properly express my opinion on that statement.

MokiCh

11-09-2009, 02:53 PM

<cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>We can't easily quest without getting ganked ALL the time, especially when quest givers/updaters have no immunity around them and are camped. There SHOULD be alternative hubs to get updates for quests, such as implementing some form of quest liason in a major city. I dont mind if people PVP but everyone should have a choice of whether or not to participate...a quest liason can do that for a small ingame fee of ten gold or tier it to the difficult of the quests</blockquote>You already have a choice: choose to play on a PvE server (there are lots to choose from), or choose to play on PvP (only two servers) and accept the fact that PvP may interfere with your questing or crafting (god forbid).And also, despite the title of this thread, this discussion is about procs, not bluebie QQ about how the evil PvPers are preventing you from crafting in TG.

Hilt

11-09-2009, 02:59 PM

<cite>MokiChan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>We can't easily quest without getting ganked ALL the time, especially when quest givers/updaters have no immunity around them and are camped. There SHOULD be alternative hubs to get updates for quests, such as implementing some form of quest liason in a major city. I dont mind if people PVP but everyone should have a choice of whether or not to participate...a quest liason can do that for a small ingame fee of ten gold or tier it to the difficult of the quests</blockquote>You already have a choice: choose to play on a PvE server (there are lots to choose from), or choose to play on PvP (only two servers) and accept the fact that PvP may interfere with your questing or crafting (god forbid).And also, despite the title of this thread, this discussion is about procs, not bluebie QQ about how the evil PvPers are preventing you from crafting in TG.</blockquote>A.) First, If Sony wants to ADD crafting then give it a sense of progression. Without a sense of progression, players will not feel like they are accomplishing anything and will quit. Otherwise, REMOVE CRAFTING.B.) Second, If Sony wants to ADD questing then give it a sense of progression. Without a sense of progression, players will not feel like they are accomplishing anything and will quit. Otherwise, REMOVE QUESTING.C.) Third, if Sony had intended for this to be PURELY PVP then give it a sense of progression. make a tiered ladder system so we can see we are making progress.We're not paying a monthly fee for "EQ2: The Halo Edition". If we were, we would choose to play Halo as it implements a better graphical environment for PVP and has far fewer memory leaks. If you believe that it is SOLELY about PVP then you are sadly mistaken or your mother sneezed during childbirth. NO ONE is QQing about the "evils of PVP", but I have played video games long enough to know that player progression and customization go hand in hand with player satisfaction.So spare me the BS of QQing about PVP when WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS TO ELIMINATE ZERG.

YasikoSetsu

11-09-2009, 03:13 PM

<cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MokiChan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>We can't easily quest without getting ganked ALL the time, especially when quest givers/updaters have no immunity around them and are camped. There SHOULD be alternative hubs to get updates for quests, such as implementing some form of quest liason in a major city. I dont mind if people PVP but everyone should have a choice of whether or not to participate...a quest liason can do that for a small ingame fee of ten gold or tier it to the difficult of the quests</blockquote>You already have a choice: choose to play on a PvE server (there are lots to choose from), or choose to play on PvP (only two servers) and accept the fact that PvP may interfere with your questing or crafting (god forbid).And also, despite the title of this thread, this discussion is about procs, not bluebie QQ about how the evil PvPers are preventing you from crafting in TG.</blockquote>A.) REMOVE CRAFTING.B.) REMOVE QUESTING.C.) PURELY PVP.</blockquote>Deal.From your own words, too!

Hilt

11-09-2009, 03:21 PM

Well that pretty much boils it down to our main choice. Even though you completely missed the point I was making...Sony has to choose. Everquest or Everkill...

Cloakentuna

11-10-2009, 12:28 AM

To be fair though, the real problem with PvP is people like this guy~<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svVMDpwxChs">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svVMDpwxChs</a>

Paikis

11-10-2009, 12:54 AM

<cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Words</blockquote>You are wasting system resources on a PvP server. Go chose from any one of dozens of bluebie server and stop wasting my time reading this drivel. [Removed for Content].

Paikis

11-10-2009, 12:58 AM

<cite>Azol@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Completely remove procs from PvP</blockquote>Instead of continuing posting ideas like "Completely remove **this-and-that** from PVP", try to figure out the ways how to make it work without removing. Dumbing down the game is a way to go... for you, it seems.</blockquote>You get better at Reading Comprehension (2/400)From the very first post made in this thread:<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assasin set gear, instead of having a proc 2 times per minute for 1000 damage, would increase the damage of a combat art that is up twice a minute by 1000, or a CA that is up 4 times a minute by 500. Instead of giving a 1000pt ward 2.0 times per minute, increase a heal by 250 if it can be cast 4 times a minute.Remove all procs from PvP combat in '09.</blockquote>

Azol

11-10-2009, 04:49 AM

Proposed changes cannot replace all the diversity of procs that different classes can potentially get. I am glad you are so confident that they would.But, as in the example provided, the "replacement" versions do not work the way original procs do. We already have those +heal and +damage to enhance our CAs aand spells. Procs do different things and serve different purposes than straight heal/damage bonuses. If you cannot see the difference then... okay.edit: caps lock ftw

Paikis

11-10-2009, 05:51 AM

OK, you take a heal proc. Lets go with Overloaded Heals. Lets say that this particular OLH proc will trigger 2.0 times per minute and heals each group member for 500 hitpoints. This means that OLH proc should be healing for 1000 hitpoints per member every minute.You take a priest's group heal, and you see how many times it can be cast (base) per minute. Lets say for simplicity's sake that it can be cast every 15 seconds. So you have 4 casts per minute. 100 hitpoints per minute divided by 4 casts per minute means you need to add 250hitpoints onto all priest's group heals. Proc changed, no longer adds another check to clog up the system and it gives the same benefit.Gimme a proc, tell me what it does and I'll give you an alternative. There is nothing stopping SOE from adding things like:+200 base heal amount to primary single target wards, reactives and regens.+100 base damage amount to Offensive Stance damage procs. (its a skill based proc, not an item-based one)+1 second to the duration of taunt locks on all fighter's primary single-target taunts.Adds +1000 hitpoints to all fighter's Defensive StancesAdds +500 hitpoints to the receiver of all fighters' avoidance moves.Reduce all incoming Physical damage by 50% added to Magi's Shielding.etc etc.There are dozens of ways to increase the effectiveness of all classes, without using procs. It can give the same bonus as a proc would, but doesn't require a 'trigger' to do. There you go, lag reduced. Now all they have to do is avoid doing silly things like adding heals to nukes and such so we don't end up with stupid OP classes (cough crusaders cough) and we're golden!

Azol

11-10-2009, 06:20 AM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now all they have to do is avoid doing silly things like adding heals to nukes and such so we don't end up with stupid OP classes (cough crusaders cough) and we're golden!</blockquote>I highly doubt that WE would be golden, most likely SEVERAL CASSES will, because so-called OP crusaders **cough** (for example) will still keep their versatility (damage, wards, nukes) while most other classes will be left in the dust without some of their "stupid" procs.

Hilt

11-10-2009, 01:05 PM

<cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Words</blockquote>You are wasting system resources on a PvP server. Go chose from any one of dozens of bluebie server and stop wasting my time reading this drivel. [Removed for Content].</blockquote>Eat my berries Stretch Armstrong. ZERG is what I'm here to eliminate and I don't have time for your Nancy girl nonsense.So GET OFF MY LAWN ([Removed for Content])

YasikoSetsu

11-10-2009, 03:44 PM

<cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Words</blockquote>You are wasting system resources on a PvP server. Go chose from any one of dozens of bluebie server and stop wasting my time reading this drivel. [Removed for Content].</blockquote>Eat my berries Stretch Armstrong. ZERG is what I'm here to eliminate and I don't have time for your Nancy girl nonsense.So GET OFF MY LAWN ([Removed for Content])</blockquote>See, the thing is. You act like you want to eliminate zerg, but you worded it more like:"Aww, the people at terens are killing me whle I'm trying to craaaaaft, make it stooop, I dont wanna participate in the PvP, I should have a chooooice, awwww!"

MokiCh

11-10-2009, 04:12 PM

<cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Paikis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Words</blockquote>You are wasting system resources on a PvP server. Go chose from any one of dozens of bluebie server and stop wasting my time reading this drivel. [Removed for Content].</blockquote>Eat my berries Stretch Armstrong. ZERG is what I'm here to eliminate and I don't have time for your Nancy girl nonsense.So GET OFF MY LAWN ([Removed for Content])</blockquote>Oh teh noes guise! He's here to ELIMINATE THA ZERG! We better watch our step from now on, or we'll get steamrolled by his wrath!lawl go back to PvE bluebie, your knitting circle is probably wondering where you are.

Natthan

11-10-2009, 05:19 PM

Hilt is kind of similar to Spyderbite IMO

Fin

11-10-2009, 11:34 PM

<cite>MokiChan wrote:</cite><blockquote> your knitting circle is probably wondering where you are.</blockquote> Oh OH, I wonder if they crochet I need some TIPS!

Peak

11-11-2009, 10:48 AM

<cite>Froggleg@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>To be fair though, the real problem with PvP is people like this guy~<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svVMDpwxChs">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svVMDpwxChs</a></blockquote>

PeaSy1

11-11-2009, 12:30 PM

ouch

Hilt

11-11-2009, 01:43 PM

YasikoSetsuna wrote:"See, the thing is. You act like you want to eliminate zerg, but you worded it more like:'Aww, the people at terens are killing me whle I'm trying to craaaaaft, make it stooop, I dont wanna participate in the PvP, I should have a chooooice, awwww!'MokiChan wrote:"Oh teh noes guise! He's here to ELIMINATE THA ZERG! We better watch our step from now on, or we'll get steamrolled by his wrath!lawl go back to PvE bluebie, your knitting circle is probably wondering where you are."...If Sony is going to make the choice to ADD this content then make it possible to achieve something.But I say remove it as it detracts from the goal of the server's very nature.Now if you both have something intellligent to contribute, bring it or move along.EnvoyofBCD wrote: "Hilt is kind of similar to Spyderbite IMO"If you think that then you are sadly mistaken. I'm all for PVP one-on-one and group-vs-group.But the reality is crafting & questing fall to the wayside when PVP is supposed to be the main focus.

YasikoSetsu

11-11-2009, 02:21 PM

<cite>Hilt wrote:</cite><blockquote>YasikoSetsuna wrote:"See, the thing is. You act like you want to eliminate zerg, but you worded it more like:'Aww, the people at terens are killing me whle I'm trying to craaaaaft, make it stooop, I dont wanna participate in the PvP, I should have a chooooice, awwww!'MokiChan wrote:"Oh teh noes guise! He's here to ELIMINATE THA ZERG! We better watch our step from now on, or we'll get steamrolled by his wrath!lawl go back to PvE bluebie, your knitting circle is probably wondering where you are."...If Sony is going to make the choice to ADD this content then make it possible to achieve something.But I say remove it as it detracts from the goal of the server's very nature.Now if you both have something intellligent to contribute, bring it or move along.EnvoyofBCD wrote: "Hilt is kind of similar to Spyderbite IMO"If you think that then you are sadly mistaken. I'm all for PVP one-on-one and group-vs-group.But the reality is crafting & questing fall to the wayside when PVP is supposed to be the main focus.</blockquote>I contributed on page 3. All that's left to do is flame your ideals, as they are worthless to the general PvP community.