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Odysia
08-06-2009, 10:09 AM
<p><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong><span style="font-size: x-large;">Paladin Utility</span></strong>Priority: <span style="color: #ff0000;">High</span></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Problem:</span> All a paladin's utility is easily wrapped under the heading of "hey paladins can heal"; no considering that healers can also heal. At best it gives flexibility to our role but does not grant additional utility. A raid with a paladin in it performs the same as on without a paladin in it; especially later in the expansion where people have geared up more. Currently right now paladins bring the ability to tank grab and hold agro; we have nothing outside of this to offer a raid force.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Suggested fix:</span> If the "paladins can heal" angle is going to be used throughout the paladin utility line then making sure it both stacks with current healers and differs significantly so that bringing a Paladin along will be beneficial to the raid; a raid/group wide heal/ward proc perhaps.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Alternative Fix:</span> Moving away from the healing aspects something as simple as increasing the range of all spells by 5 will be a tweak which other classes will see and enjoy he fact they have a paladin in the raid force.<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Alternative Fix:</span> Or something less subtle and more powerful, 10% reuse/casting speed perhaps?<em>As you can see by the number of suggestions this is a issue which all paladins feel strongly about and should be addressed.</em></p><p><em>__________________________________________________ _____________________</em></p><p>The above was posted by boli32. As requests, I have started a new thread to <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">argue about it</span> discuss it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Specifically:</p><p><em>"All a paladin's utility is easily wrapped under the heading of "hey paladins can heal"; "</em></p><p>I just can't agree with this. The list of goodies we bring to a raid is huge. The problem is most people don't realise what we do, especially when employed as a supporting tank and specced for that role. I'm not going to list them all, but suggestion that we just 'do a bit of healing' is really understating our capabilites.</p>

Maamadex
08-06-2009, 12:06 PM
<p>Remind me, what is it we bring thats huge again?</p>

Odysia
08-06-2009, 12:32 PM
<p>There's not one 'it' which is huge, rather there is a huge number of small/medium things that we provide.</p><p>I really shouldn't have to spell them out to a level 80 paladin... should I?</p><p>Can you honestly not think of any buffs / spells / combat arts that bring significant advantages to a raid in addition to our own moderate DPS output?</p><p>If you can't all I can say is you're spoiled. Try playing a class that genuinely does have no utility (ranger for example) and then think again.</p>

Maamadex
08-06-2009, 01:01 PM
<p>What we bring isn't that huge tbh, I know the buffs I add to the raid etc and they are anything but "huge". Nice enough but not remotely huge. The reason Boli said we need utility is because of what SKs got added to their group buff with TSO AAs. 10% reuse/cast speed. Nothing we have compares with that.</p>

Kordran
08-06-2009, 02:36 PM
<p>To keep changes "in concept" with the Paladin, I think healing isn't a bad angle to go at, but there's no question that right now the Paladin's heals are insignificant and becoming more of a Cleric-lite isn't the way to go either. Not to mention that if they really did significantly boost the Paladin's ability to heal, you can bet we'd be hearing about it from Clerics and Shamans.</p><p>Rather than boost our own healing, one approach could be improving our buffs for the actual healers in the group and raid. Right now we just have Crusade. How about a raid-wide version of Coercive Healing (with smaller % bonuses of course) that helps all priests with heals, wards, criticals, casting and reuse speed of beneficial spells. Or a buff that grants a 10% immunity to all stuns, fears and stifles for priest classes only. And one thing I'm pretty sure that healers would appreciate is a buff that improves their curing abilities (including curing curses). Those are all things that I think would be in-line with the general idea of a Paladin, and would make them more desirable in a raid.</p><p>Edit: And I really would love to know what the "huge goodies" are that we bring to a raid? Divine Inspiration, Crusade and Raid Armament. While they're okay, I wouldn't exactly call them "huge" buffs, and only two of those are raid-wide. No one says "Sorry guys, the Anashti raid is off for tonight, our Paladin couldn't login and without Crusade, there's no way we're taking that mob down..."</p>

Boli32
08-06-2009, 03:31 PM
<p>Paladin utility.. the complete list as it stands right now.</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;">Raid Arnament: 840 mitigation to all none fighters(single target mitigation buff by contrast is 552 and deduction of paladin's mit by 685) so raid arnament is always chosen above the single.. especially where lost of melee damage shields and AoEs in raid encounters - helps keeps squishies alive <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p><p style="padding-left: 60px;">Crusade: 111 Wisdom and 5% base healingAnd just to keep it complete my group buffs are as follows:</p><p style="padding-left: 60px;">Divine Inspiration: inflicts 271-451 damage 2.1 time a min double vs undead.Then you have Sigil (36% group agro siphon for 20s) and amends (single target agro transfer 42%)</p><p>The physcial mitigation buff... great for squishy mages and the base healing+wisdom great for healing power and resists.</p><p>What these both have in common is once you begin to gear up both become worthless as the group can survivve just as well without them.</p><p>Then you have the the group damage proc buff... its a laughable proc.</p><p>So... we are left with agro siphons as our utility and the fact we can heal.... well... every other tank class can hold agro without these transfers; and ffer more utility besides. And as for the healing power...why not bing a class such as an inquistor... or similar healer.. they offer a slew of buffs to their group do good dps and get heals as well.</p><p>So what it boils down to is: Once you gear up the raid the paladin buffs become less and less useful... utility if it is based around heals has to be something that sets the paladin apart and makes the raid think twice: "hold but a paladin gives xyz!".</p><p>So... do we need utility?... yes.  as it stands right now there is no reason to bring a paladin to a guild of identically skilled players when yu can brig a: as they wil offer the raid more.</p><p>The above suggestions were just a sample of what is obviously a very sore issue with paladins recently.</p>

Odysia
08-07-2009, 10:52 AM
<p>Kordran,</p><p><sigh></p><p>I say again - the list is huge. That does not mean one or two very powerful buffs, it means a large number of more modest buffs and abillities.</p><p>Boli32,</p><p>I have 2 issues with your post.</p><p>It seems a self fullfilling prophecy. You say the Paladin abilities are useless because "the group can survivve just as well without them". Well, if that's true, then there is no point in having anyone in the final slot. If you have a perfectly viable 23 person raid or 5 person group, such that the final person abilities are genuinely not needed, then any class taken as the final person is also 'worthless'. Ergo you have 'proved' that all classes are irrelevant.</p><p>The second issue is that your 'complete' list still has a number of significant omissions! It seems to me that you are only talking about unique Paladin abilities. Thats not really comparing like for like because any class is in competition from outside its archetype as well as within.</p><p>As a simple example, you've not mentioned our Rez. If that doesn't qualify as utility I don't know what does. Yes, I know other classes can rez.. so what.</p><p>Likewise no mention of our avoidance transfer. Yes, I know some other fighter classes can offer better numbers, but it depends if the encounters need on OT as well, and how many high avoidance fighter types you have kicking around. Even a mediocre Paladin will offer about a 25% reduction in the mobs AA hit rate on the MT. I fail to see how that can be considered 'worthless'.</p><p>I could continue, and I might later, but I'm (notionally) at work so I'd better get back to it.</p>

Boli32
08-07-2009, 11:46 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Kordran,</p><p>I say again - the list is huge. That does not mean one or two very powerful buffs, it means a large number of more modest buffs and abillities.</p><p>Boli32,</p><p>I have 2 issues with your post.</p><p>It seems a self fullfilling prophecy. You say the Paladin abilities are useless because "the group can survivve just as well without them". Well, if that's true, then there is no point in having anyone in the final slot. If you have a perfectly viable 23 person raid or 5 person group, such that the final person abilities are genuinely not needed, then any class taken as the final person is also 'worthless'. Ergo you have 'proved' that all classes are irrelevant.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Paladins are better than an empty slot... trying to say aything else is just a way of distorting the truth.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">What I aid as once the raid force is significantly geared up the utilty paladins offer a raid force is so minimal that you can pretty much slot another class in the PLACE of a paladin and the raid will be able to perform better taking into account equivlent skill levels.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Why have a Paladin OT when an SK can do the job as well; do more dps and reuse - his group to do more dps... ditto zerker. Why have a dps who can heal as well .. just add in an inquisitor / fury / mystic... why have the dps of a paladin when you can put anoterh assasin in... heck they can even poison buff the bard as well.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">As you can see once the raid has geared up sufficiently well to survive the AoEs significantly well without the mitigation+heals a paladin brings to the raid force their usefulness is moot; and that comes quickly. The same can be said for guardians as well once the mob is learnt...but this is the paladin forums not thwe guardian forums.</span></p><p>The second issue is that your 'complete' list still has a number of significant omissions! It seems to me that you are only talking about unique Paladin abilities. Thats not really comparing like for like because any class is in competition from outside its archetype as well as within.</p><p>As a simple example, you've not mentioned our Rez. If that doesn't qualify as utility I don't know what does. Yes, I know other classes can rez.. so what.</p><p>The rez has a 1m range... that' right 1m... it may have a 100% health but the range is such that if in groups/raisd if someone is KBed and gets stuck in a tree/ceiling the rez is useless.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I have teken the rez to be such that it is a gimic... helps to rez n the odd occasion someone dies at your feet and not to be taken as the be an end all of a paladins utility. Afterall dirges can rez... and why not have another dirge in the raid... so can additional healers; a great fury/inquisior can offer the odd rez better ufsf and equivilent dps.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">What Paladins require as raid utility is an abiity which makes them stand out as "hey paladins are useful in a raid beyond tanking"; SKs have group deathmarch. base spell resuse tmes group str+int, debuffs against physcial+disase. zerkers have group bezerker, group stregnth, reuse raid +dps. I'm nt going to get into the brawler and guardan discussion discusion but they also ofer utility outside their ability to tank.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">What paladins offer a raid force is: "a tank"; with other tanks in the game who can tank equivilently well as far as survibility/agro ontrol is concerned what separates them is what they offer outside this key role... and this is what paladins lack.</span></p><p>Likewise no mention of our avoidance transfer. <strong>Yes, I know some other fighter classes can offer better numbers,</strong> but it depends if the encounters need on OT as well, and how many high avoidance fighter types you have kicking around. Even a mediocre Paladin will offer about a 25% reduction in the mobs AA hit rate on the MT. I fail to see how that can be considered 'worthless'.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You answered your own question.</span></p><p>I could continue, and I might later, but I'm (notionally) at work so I'd better get back to it.</p></blockquote><p>We are not asking for much; just a utility outside the "hey paladins can heal" angle; or a heaing abiity that makes us desirable outside just adding in another dirge or healer.</p><p>Paladins right now have to earn their spots in a raid by being d*mn good... bad paladins don't make the cut, average paladins are left outside even great paladins are left outside every so often in favour of higher dps classes. If you see a paladin who raids regualy in a guild you know that they have worked their *ss off. We have nothing to fall back on... we have a bad night; grab adds a scond late... "bye bye pally, lets get the zerker in"... if the zerker has a bad night; well at least he's bufing his group.. he's got a lot of RL problems right now.</p><p>We do *not* want to be OPed; we just want the tools to do our job correctly and the utilty to be able to comepte on equal ground vs the other tanks.</p><p>Playing a paladin is like turning up to a poker game with half the chips as everyone else Sure we can win but we sure as h*ll not make any mistakes.</p>

Kordran
08-07-2009, 12:03 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I say again - the list is huge. That does not mean one or two very powerful buffs, it means a large number of more modest buffs and abillities.</blockquote><p>Yes, you keep saying the list is huge, but its nonsense. Paladins have two mediocre raid buffs (three if you want to count the the ST avoidance buff), and one group buff. If that is "huge" to you, then I really don't know what to say.</p><p>And the very fact that you mention the rez and avoidance buff tells me that you don't actually play a Paladin in a high-end raiding guild. My RL would kick me from the raid if I actually started running around trying to rez people (and because we have to be humping their corpse to rez them, I mean literally running around); that is the job for the Dirges. And the avoidance buff? I have never in recent memory put my avoid buff on the MT, that's the job of one of our brawler OTs. And since the fighter avoidance buffs overwrite one another, those "fighter classes that offer better numbers" are who's buffing the MT, not the Paladin.</p><p>What the Paladin brings to the raiding table is good AE aggro, top-end snap aggro and hate siphons. We make reasonably good MTs with the proper gear, and very good OTs, but our utility? Not a reason we have a slot. And there's also the fact that there's absolutely no reason to have more than one Paladin in a raid; in fact, because of how our buffs overwrite, it's more a nuisance than anything else.</p><p>Edit: And what Boli wrote up there is absolutely true; if you have a Paladin in a raiding guild who raids consistently, then they've worked for that slot and have proven themselves to be a significant asset to the raid as a player. A slot that can just as easily be given to a Berserker, Shadowknight or an actual utility class (if more utility is what the raid needs). And the higher-end that raiding guild is, the more competitive those slots become. Our so-called utility doesn't even factor in.</p>

Maamadex
08-07-2009, 02:09 PM
<p>/agree wholeheartedly with Boli and Kordran. I can't believe the rez was even brought up lol</p>

Stonestrong
08-08-2009, 02:27 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's not one 'it' which is huge, rather there is a huge number of small/medium things that we provide.</p><p>I really shouldn't have to spell them out to a level 80 paladin... should I?</p><p>Can you honestly not think of any buffs / spells / combat arts that bring significant advantages to a raid in addition to our own moderate DPS output?</p><p>If you can't all I can say is you're spoiled. Try playing a class that genuinely does have no utility (ranger for example) and then think again.</p></blockquote><p>Im going to have to call you out right now. We have absolutely no utility other than 5% raid wide to base healing, a super [Removed for Content] group proc , and a couple [Removed for Content] heals. The raidwide mit buff is nice but its also very situational.  If you even mention the Crusader wisdom line then you really are a lost cause.</p><p>But I guess those are just as good as 10% casting speed and reuse for the group. 5 Base spell damage raidwide. Oh and Deathmarch, cause I mean thats not good either..............right?</p><p>Rangers have focus aim which is 10X better than all of those put together. If you are going to try debate things actually know what you are talking about and don't try to make a post as if you are clever or you are "in the know" when clearly you have no idea what you are even posting about.</p>

Tommara
08-08-2009, 05:05 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Try playing a class that genuinely does have no utility (ranger for example) and then think again.</p></blockquote><p>*sob*</p><p>There's a huge amount of irony in the fact that I didn't realize how powerful my ranger's ability to debuff defense by 55, deflection and parry by 75 each, until I played a paladin.</p><p>It's not enough to make rangers desired by PuGs or other ignorants, even with Focus Aim (increases group chance to Hit by 25%, crushing, piercing, slashing by 127, a bunch of other goodies for me alone), so I appreciate you dissing ranger utility.  It helps our cause to have other classes say this, rather than having only us rangers whine about it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

Tommara
08-08-2009, 06:17 AM
<p>I'm also learning that my ranger isn't as weak as others make them out to be.  I myself had no clue how important my combat buffs and debuffs are, until playing a paladin.   You won't see my ranger buffs/debuffs unless searching for them while in combat (unlikely you could do that, if you're a good paladin), since they aren't persistant "until cancelled" types.  You won't see them in a dps-parser, except that they increase physical damage for everyone, but temporarily shows up as a dps loss for me (Snipe and Crippling Arrow),  because of the time it takes to cast them.  If the fight lasts long enough, my personal performance will "break even".  In short fights, ACT will show me as a loser. but the group wins by being able to kill mobs faster.</p><p>But it's not all about me, is it?  So I will continue to buff the entire group's physical damage when the buff is up, and debuff the mobs as soon as those CA's are up, and be glad that I only group with people who like to have me around.</p>

Kigneer
08-09-2009, 11:53 AM
<p>The nature of Paladins is to be divine crusaders, and our sub-role is to healers (Knight Templars types). Can't remove the healing aspects without changing what Paladins are -- holy warriors who aid the weak, heal those in need and rescue those damsels in distress. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Our spells are designed to work with that mythology as well -- we don't do magic damage, our spells do divine damage, and the AoE's is our God's divine smite on the enemy.</p><p>Furthermore, plate tanks aren't suppose to be DPS pushers. Paladins are designed to take the damage not give it. The problem is SoE made it in stone that Guards and maybe the Bezerker and SKs are the MTs now, which makes Paladins useless for end-game raiding -- we have no real role but taking up a valuable slot. Our heals can't keep a 20k HP tank up and hope to stay alive as they draw huge amounts of power and our gear doesn't offer much power regen (and power regen jewellry has dismal spell tank stats); our buffs are cancelled as some other class has better ones (or the MT hardly ever groups with a Paladin to learn our buffs, and considers them inferior).</p><p>I love my Paladin and will remain my main, but something has to be done to fix our desireability if not as a MT/OT, but as a true utility class. Tired of trying to heal, and even with AAs to help, our good spells take w-a-y too much power, when the non T4/fabled Pally has about 3k less power than a dedicated healer. If we have the heals we need better power stats on our T2+ gear with better critical heal stats without losing our ability to actually fight. There's a demand for healers in TOS that's often not fulfilled and groups can't progress without one or two in harder content. So let the Pally be able to heal, and to "balance" it if we do heal we can't fight as without healing but ourselves. This way Pallies can do more than being considered JUST a tank.</p>

Kordran
08-09-2009, 03:24 PM
<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The problem is SoE made it in stone that Guards and maybe the Bezerker and SKs are the MTs now, which makes Paladins useless for end-game raiding -- we have no real role but taking up a valuable slot.</blockquote><p>Now that's taking things too far. Paladins aren't useless in raids, we still make good OTs and personally I've MTed all of the RoK and most of the TSO raid content in the game. I guess there could be some discussion about the amount of effort that it requires to get to the point of being able to do that, but to say that the class is "useless for end-game raiding" is overstating the point by quite a bit.</p><p>Of course, on the flipside, there's very few active raiding Paladins in the game anymore. We've become a dying breed of sorts, as most of us have betrayed to Shadowknights, switched to other classes or just left the game.</p>

Kigneer
08-10-2009, 01:08 AM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The problem is SoE made it in stone that Guards and maybe the Bezerker and SKs are the MTs now, which makes Paladins useless for end-game raiding -- we have no real role but taking up a valuable slot.</blockquote><p>Now that's taking things too far. Paladins aren't useless in raids, we still make good OTs and personally I've MTed all of the RoK and most of the TSO raid content in the game. I guess there could be some discussion about the amount of effort that it requires to get to the point of being able to do that, but to say that the class is "useless for end-game raiding" is overstating the point by quite a bit.</p><p>Of course, on the flipside, there's very few active raiding Paladins in the game anymore. We've become a dying breed of sorts, as most of us have betrayed to Shadowknights, switched to other classes or just left the game.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not talking RoK but TSO, which is the end-game of EQ2. RoK hardly anyone does anymore but for epic updates. Even I can tank Seb now. :/</p>

Kordran
08-10-2009, 03:56 AM
<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The problem is SoE made it in stone that Guards and maybe the Bezerker and SKs are the MTs now, which makes Paladins useless for end-game raiding -- we have no real role but taking up a valuable slot.</blockquote><p>Now that's taking things too far. Paladins aren't useless in raids, we still make good OTs and personally I've MTed all of the RoK and most of the TSO raid content in the game. I guess there could be some discussion about the amount of effort that it requires to get to the point of being able to do that, but to say that the class is "useless for end-game raiding" is overstating the point by quite a bit.</p><p>Of course, on the flipside, there's very few active raiding Paladins in the game anymore. We've become a dying breed of sorts, as most of us have betrayed to Shadowknights, switched to other classes or just left the game.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not talking RoK but TSO, which is the end-game of EQ2. RoK hardly anyone does anymore but for epic updates. Even I can tank Seb now. :/</p></blockquote><p>Wow, that's some selective reading on your part. Here, let me pull out the relevant section:</p><p>I've MT all of the RoK <strong>and most of the TSO raid content</strong> in the game.</p><p>Perhaps that makes it a bit easier for you to read? You're also wrong about people not doing RoK content; SoH (namely Maestro and Byzola) and Trakanon are RoK-era content that many raiding guilds still consistently do. Furthermore, I have no idea what the heck you're talking about Sebilis for, that has nothing to do with raid content.</p><p>Frankly, I also have difficulty with you proclaiming the class to be "useless" for end-game raiding when you appear to have little or no actual experience with x4 TSO raiding. It'd be a bit more convincing coming from someone with at least their mythical and some T4 gear. I don't mean to just throw out the gear trump card here, but unless you're actually a Paladin in a active raiding guild, you have no real basis for making those kinds of comments.</p>

Kigneer
08-10-2009, 07:21 AM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The problem is SoE made it in stone that Guards and maybe the Bezerker and SKs are the MTs now, which makes Paladins useless for end-game raiding -- we have no real role but taking up a valuable slot.</blockquote><p>Now that's taking things too far. Paladins aren't useless in raids, we still make good OTs and personally I've MTed all of the RoK and most of the TSO raid content in the game. I guess there could be some discussion about the amount of effort that it requires to get to the point of being able to do that, but to say that the class is "useless for end-game raiding" is overstating the point by quite a bit.</p><p>Of course, on the flipside, there's very few active raiding Paladins in the game anymore. We've become a dying breed of sorts, as most of us have betrayed to Shadowknights, switched to other classes or just left the game.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not talking RoK but TSO, which is the end-game of EQ2. RoK hardly anyone does anymore but for epic updates. Even I can tank Seb now. :/</p></blockquote><p>Wow, that's some selective reading on your part. Here, let me pull out the relevant section:</p><p>I've MT all of the RoK <strong>and most of the TSO raid content</strong> in the game.</p><p>Perhaps that makes it a bit easier for you to read? You're also wrong about people not doing RoK content; SoH (namely Maestro and Byzola) and Trakanon are RoK-era content that many raiding guilds still consistently do. Furthermore, I have no idea what the heck you're talking about Sebilis for, that has nothing to do with raid content.</p><p>Frankly, I also have difficulty with you proclaiming the class to be "useless" for end-game raiding when you appear to have little or no actual experience with x4 TSO raiding. It'd be a bit more convincing coming from someone with at least their mythical and some T4 gear. I don't mean to just throw out the gear trump card here, but unless you're actually a Paladin in a active raiding guild, you have no real basis for making those kinds of comments.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Not selective reading, but selective typing as some folks are playing EQ2 while posting here (especially these darn long waits for groups to get ready!).</strong></p><p>Hope that's more clear.</p><p>Secondly, almost all requests to do Chardok and Seb are for epic updates -- what you have done 6 months ago doesn't reflect what people are doing today. Six months ago Chardok and Seb were the farm zones. Today they're mostly abandoned.</p><p>Thirdly, the last tank who based "actual experience" on gear, was the one that couldn't even hold hate, and blamed others for it. So don't judge the book by it's cover!</p>

Maamadex
08-10-2009, 10:19 AM
<p>Having gear from any TSO raid mobs or Trak or Byzola (or even a myth )would indicate that you have actually raided the zones you profess paladins are useless for. Not having the gear implies you are talking about end game raiding with nothing to qualify your statements with. I MT everything my guild kills in TSO too np. If I was useless for end-game raiding I wish someone would have told me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />. I've yet to feel that way in any raid I've been in.</p><p>As for Chardok and Seb, I still love doing Seb runs every so often. People still need AA, there are a couple heritage updates in there, and plenty of reasons to go back besides epics. Seb is pretty fun for me even for the millionth time just because we can pull a dozen blue mobs and blast the heck out of em with ae's.</p>

Rainmare
08-10-2009, 11:10 AM
<p>it's very simple. all they really need to do is give us back our Brells line from EQ1.</p><p>but yes, our raid utility is a joke. my raidforce made me become a dirge to raid with, becuase my paladin offers nothing they consider 'worthwhile'.</p><p>they don't care about my base healing buff, they'd rather the Sk's spell resuse/damage.</p><p>my mitigation buff is nice, but not enough to make them want it unless the mob has a physical AE that kills squishes really bad. (Kultak the Cruel) at least until thye've geared enough that it's no longer an issue (that took like 2 weeks).</p><p>Sigil? pfft. hate isn't what kills them, AE's do.</p><p>For those that didn't play EQ1, the Brell line was a raid castable buff (with the Mass Group Buff AA) that was like a 1300 pt hp buff that stacked with everyone else. give us that back, let us give another big hp jump and help the healers out with our raid 5% base jump, and then maybe we'll at least have an arguement.</p><p>then we can reasonably say the SK/Zerker jumps up your raid damage, and the paladin does as much for your raids survivability. they make you hit harder/faster, we make you take hits better/live longer</p>

Marcusaval
08-12-2009, 06:07 AM
<p>That seems sensible to me and would give us a specific purpose although I am not sure a HP boost adds up to much in the overall scheme of things especially in a well geared raid force. Depending on my group set up my HP varies from about 16K to 21K anyway so dishing out 1.5K HP to all is not huge useful yes; class defining in a raid not sure.</p><p>The thought is perfect to give us some unique utility that will make a Paladin useful in a raid apart from being an off tank which all the other fighter classes can do as well!</p>

Kigneer
08-12-2009, 11:43 AM
<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Having gear from any TSO raid mobs or Trak or Byzola (or even a myth )would indicate that you have actually raided the zones you profess paladins are useless for. Not having the gear implies you are talking about end game raiding with nothing to qualify your statements with. I MT everything my guild kills in TSO too np. If I was useless for end-game raiding I wish someone would have told me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />. I've yet to feel that way in any raid I've been in.</p><p>As for Chardok and Seb, I still love doing Seb runs every so often. People still need AA, there are a couple heritage updates in there, and plenty of reasons to go back besides epics. Seb is pretty fun for me even for the millionth time just because we can pull a dozen blue mobs and blast the heck out of em with ae's.</p></blockquote><p>After seeing all the offers to buy TSO gear from zones raid guilds are clearing (going for 150+pp), absolutely no, will I consider gear as a qualification of "being there".</p><p>This is the top raid guild on Permafrost (the avatar killers), notice something missing?</p><p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/guilds/guild_profile.vm?guildId=1028202">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...guildId=1028202</a></p><p>0 Paladins on the roster.</p><p>Now wonder why there are none.</p><p>Heck, even the guild I'm in now they want me to be the MT, but we're nowhere near to VP yet, as we're still trying to build up a raid team. But MT Pallies are rarer than rare, and in every end-game MT I've seen has been a SK (even on the PUG x4 raid Defiance was hosting with that 22k HP SK for EH).</p><p>Until SoE gives a role for a Paladin than a waste of a DPS/Healer/Melee or AoE OT/Main assist slot, Paladins will be considered second tiered tanks. That's the public's perception and has been for longer than I've played the game. Regardless your idea otherwise, or that you're one of those rarer than rare Pallies (yeah LoE has a Pally tanking WoE, but only doing the first 2 names which takes 2hrs...where a PUG with a SK with 15K HP whipped through 2 of the names in less than 30 minutes [in T2 gear and no the PUG wasn't mythed out]). After seeing all that, I'm helping a SK to be our raid MT...and like the guy above, going to play a Dirge or Templar, instead (they at least get the out-of-guild raid invites too!).</p><p>Games are to be enjoyed, not to keep hitting brick walls -- "What type of tank are you? Paladin! "We already have a tank". :ugh:</p>

Kigneer
08-12-2009, 11:49 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sigil? pfft. hate isn't what kills them, AE's do.</p></blockquote><p>Amen!</p>

Maamadex
08-12-2009, 12:26 PM
<p>Your arguments are still specious. Showing a top end raiding guild's roster and pointing out there is no paladin in it still doesn't qualify as proof of anything. You can't buy every piece of gear you need to be a MT you have to still earn it, and along the way learn how to be a good MT. And in so doing you see the content you, in your finite wisdom, consider paladin's useless for. Is that what you think? You see some TSO pieces for sale and oh, nobody raids TSO they just buy stuff from lvl chat? You haven't even done VP for godsakes, there are several paladin raid tanks on my server and others. "Avatar killer" and otherwise.</p>

Kordran
08-12-2009, 02:31 PM
<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Until SoE gives a role for a Paladin than a waste of a DPS/Healer/Melee or AoE OT/Main assist slot, Paladins will be considered second tiered tanks. That's the public's perception and has been for longer than I've played the game.</blockquote><p>I guess someone forgot to tell Stonestrong to hang it up, since he's just a second rate tank and whatnot. Or any one of the other high-end raiding Paladins out there. Yes, there's not as many of them around these days, and yes, a lot of raiding Paladins betrayed to Shadowknights. But that doesn't mean that Paladins can't be solid MTs and OTs. Your whole argument is a logical fallacy; because one high-end raiding guild on one server doesn't have a Paladin, it does not follow <em>ipso facto</em> that Paladins are useless in raiding.</p><p>You seem to be hung up on on how you're perceived by others, rather than what can actually be achieved with the class. You have two choices: just sit around and complain about how things aren't fair, or actually do something about working towards your goals as a Paladin. That may mean switching guilds. It may mean switching servers. If you don't do what it takes to progress, if you just throw your hands up and say "it's too hard, other classes have it easier" and conclude it's not worth the effort, then frankly you deserve the rut that you find yourself in.</p>

Maamadex
08-12-2009, 02:53 PM
<p>Speaking of Stonestrong I noticed he transfered over to Befallen heh, I was like no way! Ought to make things interesting around here. But aye Kordran is right.</p>

Nikadaimon
08-12-2009, 04:15 PM
<p>im really wondering why people in this forum only seem to be talking about raiding.... don't forget that for a lot (the majority?) of people the TSO instances are their end-game, so demanding SOE to change things because the raid game might be not balanced right, without taking heroic grouping (and even soloing) in mind is just thought way to 1 dimensional and symplistic</p>

Maamadex
08-12-2009, 05:13 PM
<p>Maybe because I raid? Thats my perspective? I've done casual, instances, been new at the game and all. And there is no harm in raiders making comments about improving things from their perspective. It will only help the majority. You are being simplistic too if you took the time to consider it. Don't you want the opinions of the best paladins who play? They are raiders for the most part.</p><p>You read this entire thread, and thats the only thing you can comment on? Its about Paladin Utility (left off the spelling error) we just got a bit derailed by someone saying paladins are crap at endgame. Who was wrong I may add.</p>

Kordran
08-12-2009, 05:30 PM
<p><cite>Nikadaimon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>im really wondering why people in this forum only seem to be talking about raiding.... don't forget that for a lot (the majority?) of people the TSO instances are their end-game, so demanding SOE to change things because the raid game might be not balanced right, without taking heroic grouping (and even soloing) in mind is just thought way to 1 dimensional and symplistic </blockquote><p>Two reasons. First, the more knowledgeable Paladins tend to be raiders because they're the type of player who tends to spend their time looking for ways to optimize their performance and focus on the details. That's not to say that there's not casual players out there who look to get the most from their toon, but on average when you see discussions about things like stat caps, mitigation curves, autoattack damage, the details of how Amends works and all the rest, it's usually raiders who focus on the "mechanical" aspects of gameplay.</p><p>Second, heroic content is largely a non-issue for even marginally competent Paladins who make any kind of effort to gear themselves up properly. All plate tanks are fully capable of tanking heroic content, so the issues that come up tend to be with raiding where everything is played out on the margins and even small changes can have a significant impact on performance.</p><p>And, as Aamadex points out, there's generally a "trickle down" effect. When an issue is addressed that was raised in the context of raiding, it typically benefits non-raiding Paladins as well.</p>

Nikadaimon
08-12-2009, 07:01 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nikadaimon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>im really wondering why people in this forum only seem to be talking about raiding.... don't forget that for a lot (the majority?) of people the TSO instances are their end-game, so demanding SOE to change things because the raid game might be not balanced right, without taking heroic grouping (and even soloing) in mind is just thought way to 1 dimensional and symplistic </blockquote><p>Two reasons. First, the more knowledgeable Paladins tend to be raiders because they're the type of player who tends to spend their time looking for ways to optimize their performance and focus on the details. That's not to say that there's not casual players out there who look to get the most from their toon, but on average when you see discussions about things like stat caps, mitigation curves, autoattack damage, the details of how Amends works and all the rest, it's usually raiders who focus on the "mechanical" aspects of gameplay.</p><p>Second, heroic content is largely a non-issue for even marginally competent Paladins who make any kind of effort to gear themselves up properly. All plate tanks are fully capable of tanking heroic content, so the issues that come up tend to be with raiding where everything is played out on the margins and even small changes can have a significant impact on performance.</p><p>And, as Aamadex points out, there's generally a "trickle down" effect. When an issue is addressed that was raised in the context of raiding, it typically benefits non-raiding Paladins as well.</p></blockquote><p>dont get me wrong; I really appreciate the comments from the raiders.. thats not what I meant..The thing is that in this thread (and my comment was more general, tends to be like this on the forums) the topic is viewed from a raid (not raider!) perspective; the utility in raids.Of course I can understand that for instance our heals dont bring much (anything) to the raid, but it sure can for (some) groups. </p>

Kordran
08-12-2009, 08:14 PM
<p><cite>Nikadaimon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Of course I can understand that for instance our heals dont bring much (anything) to the raid, but it sure can for (some) groups.</blockquote><p>Just to focus on heals for a moment, even for groups the Paladin's heals aren't really a make-or-break advantage, aside from the emergency use of Lay on Hands so the Paladin can heal himself if the healer is stunned/stifled. The only way I can really see healing being a significant factor is if (a) the Paladin is spec'd for it, and (b) the healer is not particularly good at healing/curing. In a sense, you're right, the Paladin can serve as a kind of "crutch" for a poor healer, but the more obvious approach would be to not group with poor healers (or at least not group with them again).</p><p>Of course, once you're in raid gear, your healing abilities firmly get stored in the trunk unless you're soloing. You end up with situations where the healer is asking you to put on your Bloodthirsty Choker and Jewel of Animosity just so they have something to do to amuse themselves on your <em>n</em>th run through Kor'Sha, Lower Guk or wherever. And this is where you run into problems with the Paladin's healing "utility" ... it becomes increasing <strong><em>less</em></strong> useful as you progress, rather than becoming more useful.</p>

Nikadaimon
08-13-2009, 08:09 AM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Nikadaimon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Of course I can understand that for instance our heals dont bring much (anything) to the raid, but it sure can for (some) groups.</blockquote><p>Just to focus on heals for a moment, even for groups the Paladin's heals aren't really a make-or-break advantage, aside from the emergency use of Lay on Hands so the Paladin can heal himself if the healer is stunned/stifled. The only way I can really see healing being a significant factor is if (a) the Paladin is spec'd for it, and (b) the healer is not particularly good at healing/curing. In a sense, you're right, the Paladin can serve as a kind of "crutch" for a poor healer, but the more obvious approach would be to not group with poor healers (or at least not group with them again).</p><p>Of course, once you're in raid gear, your healing abilities firmly get stored in the trunk unless you're soloing. You end up with situations where the healer is asking you to put on your Bloodthirsty Choker and Jewel of Animosity just so they have something to do to amuse themselves on your <em>n</em>th run through Kor'Sha, Lower Guk or wherever. And this is where you run into problems with the Paladin's healing "utility" ... it becomes increasing <strong><em>less</em></strong> useful as you progress, rather than becoming more useful.</p></blockquote><p>the example yuor giving here is exactly what I meant... I saved myself countless of times with my own heals if the healer was stunned/ported/rezzing/healing the necro/etc <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Odysia
08-13-2009, 11:55 AM
<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><snip></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">Why have a Paladin OT when an SK can do the job as well; do more dps and reuse - his group to do more dps... ditto zerker. Why have a dps who can heal as well .. just add in an inquisitor / fury / mystic... why have the dps of a paladin when you can put anoterh assasin in... heck they can even poison buff the bard as well.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">I agree with this, but it ties into what I said in the other thread. Yes, an SK is a far better choice, but the issue is not that Pals are gimped, its that SKs DPS is overpowered right now. Fix that, and the PAL / SK choice become more equable.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><snip></span></p><p>As a simple example, you've not mentioned our Rez. If that doesn't qualify as utility I don't know what does. Yes, I know other classes can rez.. so what.</p><p>The rez has a 1m range... that' right 1m... it may have a 100% health but the range is such that if in groups/raisd if someone is KBed and gets stuck in a tree/ceiling the rez is useless.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">I have teken the rez to be such that it is a gimic... helps to rez n the odd occasion someone dies at your feet and not to be taken as the be an end all of a paladins utility. Afterall dirges can rez... and why not have another dirge in the raid... so can additional healers; a great fury/inquisior can offer the odd rez better ufsf and equivilent dps.</span><span style="color: #ff6600;"><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Well, I've found it to be most useful if a healer bites the big one somehow. With one healer down, you don't want another one tied up doing a rez.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">I just don't understand the "dismiss an ability as useless because another class has it" sort of reasoning.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">For example, surely if I was a dirge I could say "bah, our rez is useless! Paladins have one, why take a dirge when you could take another paladin." using exactly the same type of reasoning.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Clearly its like a set of scale. Any ability you have is something extra on your side, so discount it as worthless because its not BIG and in their face to my mind seems incorrect.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Finally, if our rez really is useless, let me ask you how you would fell about it being taken off us and give to, say, assassins. or coercers.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">I submit you'd object, on the grounds that it made us less raid desireable....</span></p><font color="#ff6600"><blockquote><snip></blockquote></font></span></p></blockquote><blockquote><p>Likewise no mention of our avoidance transfer. <strong>Yes, I know some other fighter classes can offer better numbers,</strong> but it depends if the encounters need on OT as well, and how many high avoidance fighter types you have kicking around. Even a mediocre Paladin will offer about a 25% reduction in the mobs AA hit rate on the MT. I fail to see how that can be considered 'worthless'.</p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;">You answered your own question.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff6600;"><span style="color: #00ffff;">No, you didn't read the rest of the paragraph <grin>. I've certainly had raid situations where I've used this. However, I must admit my raiding background is relatively casual, we don't do hard core min/maxed most of the time.</span> </span></p><p>I could continue, and I might later, but I'm (notionally) at work so I'd better get back to it.</p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">and still maxed out by a project deadline, hence the slow response. Apologies</span></p></blockquote><p>We are not asking for much; just a utility outside the "hey paladins can heal" angle; or a heaing abiity that makes us desirable outside just adding in another dirge or healer.</p><p>Paladins right now have to earn their spots in a raid by being d*mn good... bad paladins don't make the cut, average paladins are left outside even great paladins are left outside every so often in favour of higher dps classes. If you see a paladin who raids regualy in a guild you know that they have worked their *ss off. We have nothing to fall back on... we have a bad night; grab adds a scond late... "bye bye pally, lets get the zerker in"... if the zerker has a bad night; well at least he's bufing his group.. he's got a lot of RL problems right now.</p><p>We do *not* want to be OPed; we just want the tools to do our job correctly and the utilty to be able to comepte on equal ground vs the other tanks.</p><p>Playing a paladin is like turning up to a poker game with half the chips as everyone else Sure we can win but we sure as h*ll not make any mistakes.</p></blockquote><p>Well, in spite of what I've written above, I will readily admit that I am not into hardcore raiding, and so I must concede your viewpoint in that context.</p><p>In a more casual context, I run with the wisdom line and therefore also buff all offensive skills, all wards / heals and damage. OK, its only 2 % but if you have a few high DPS players in your group it all adds up. Being immune to fear is pretty darn handy as well, for some fights.</p><p>I just don't sense this lack of desireability that clearly is your concern.</p><p>Please note that I never said the class was perfect, and clearly there is nothing wrong with raising issues for discussion. Also note that the only thing I took issue with on your original thread was the statement that Paldins lack utility.</p><p>If you look at character abilities in a very simple manner, it boils down to taking hits, healing, doing DPS, buffing, and crowd control. If you were to give marks out of 10 for these abilities, then a paladinn is something like 9,4,3,4,5. Don't argue the toss on those numbers, they are just to illustrate a point. Where as other classes are much more specialised. E.G. a ranger (in a raid context) is more like 1,0,10,2,1.</p><p>I reckon Paladins are the ultimate jack of all trades. They are immense fun to play in a CASUAL raiding environment because you have to think on your feet.</p><p>But because we can do everything to some degree, inevitably specialist classes can outperform us in their own field. Which means (presumeable, I admit to no first hand knowledge) that in a hard core min/max environment the Pal will always be at a disadvantage. And of course this ties in with what you are saying.</p><p>But it begs the question... do we really need more utility? Isn't the answer to be more specialised?</p><p>darned if I know!</p><p>Still, at the very least, my OP has sparked off some discussion.</p>

Odysia
08-13-2009, 12:10 PM
<p><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Try playing a class that genuinely does have no utility (ranger for example) and then think again.</p></blockquote><p>*sob*</p><p>There's a huge amount of irony in the fact that I didn't realize how powerful my ranger's ability to debuff defense by 55, deflection and parry by 75 each, until I played a paladin.</p><p>It's not enough to make rangers desired by PuGs or other ignorants, even with Focus Aim (increases group chance to Hit by 25%, crushing, piercing, slashing by 127, a bunch of other goodies for me alone), so I appreciate you dissing ranger utility.  It helps our cause to have other classes say this, rather than having only us rangers whine about it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Well, tbh, I play a ranger as my raiding main, followed closely by a Pal.</p><p>Actually, I think a lot of this boils down to what people mean by utility.</p><p>Rangers are, as you've pointed out, a powerful debuff class, but since most of the debuff are reduction of defence, that means its helping you do more dps, and helping everyone in the raid do more DPS.</p><p>But since a Ranger is a DPS class anyway, does that really count as utility? I don't think it does.</p><p>I'd say that for buffs to count as utility, you have to be buffing OUTSIDE your primary roll.</p>

Odysia
08-13-2009, 12:39 PM
<p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There's not one 'it' which is huge, rather there is a huge number of small/medium things that we provide.</p><p>I really shouldn't have to spell them out to a level 80 paladin... should I?</p><p>Can you honestly not think of any buffs / spells / combat arts that bring significant advantages to a raid in addition to our own moderate DPS output?</p><p>If you can't all I can say is you're spoiled. Try playing a class that genuinely does have no utility (ranger for example) and then think again.</p></blockquote><p>Im going to have to call you out right now. We have absolutely no utility other than 5% raid wide to base healing, a super [Removed for Content] group proc , and a couple [Removed for Content] heals. The raidwide mit buff is nice but its also very situational.  If you even mention the Crusader wisdom line then you really are a lost cause.</p><p> <span style="color: #00ffff;"><shrug> Guess that makes me a lost cause then. I find it a useful line, specifically because if I run the character its in a supporting rather than MT role.</span></p><p>But I guess those are just as good as 10% casting speed and reuse for the group. 5 Base spell damage raidwide. Oh and Deathmarch, cause I mean thats not good either..............right?</p><p> <span style="color: #00ffff;">Electronic conversations don't lend themselves to sarcasm. I *think* you're intimating that SKs are better than Pals, and so Pals need to be raised. I disagree, my position is Pals are about right, but SKs need a nerf.</span></p><p>Rangers have focus aim which is 10X better than all of those put together.</p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">Well, its 10x better for the ranger, thats for sure, but its certainly not 10x better for the rest of the group. Even my puny wisdom line (that you rubbish) is better for the group then focus aim. Perhaps you should take your own advice from the line below....</span></p><p>If you are going to try debate things actually know what you are talking about and don't try to make a post as if you are clever or you are "in the know" when clearly you have no idea what you are even posting about.</p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">I think thats a little unfair. I don't claim to be an expert in all areas, but the simple fact is that Paldins have a large number of abilities. You might choose to dismiss them, and its true a lot of them aren't very powerful. But as someone once said, quantity has a quality all of its own.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">I make no apology for not providing a complete list of every Paladin ability in my response to you. If you think I'm trying to be 'smart' then so be it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ffff;">But I'll tell you this.... whether its correct or not, if you talk to most players and tell them that Paladins need more utility to be useful, they just aren't going to accept it. Demonstrably, we can do a bit of everything. If you try and tell people we can't they are just going to ignore anything else you have to say and potentially miss something far more important.</span></p></blockquote>

Kordran
08-13-2009, 02:21 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><span style="color: #00ffff;">But I'll tell you this.... whether its correct or not, if you talk to most players and tell them that Paladins need more utility to be useful, they just aren't going to accept it. Demonstrably, we can do a bit of everything. If you try and tell people we can't they are just going to ignore anything else you have to say and potentially miss something far more important</span> </blockquote><p>That's because there's not many people who actuall play raiding Paladins. The perception issue that you raise largely exists because the Paladin "looks good on paper", but when it comes to raiding, Stone is absolutely correct in pointing out that our actual utility is minimal. There's also the practical reality that Paladins don't "play well with one another" in raids; our raid buffs don't stack, they overwrite and there's no compelling reason to have more than one Paladin in a raid.</p><p>The role for a raiding Paladin is fairly fixed; 95% of the time, we're an OT. The other 5% of the time we MT if someone is out, or for specific fights (e.g.: Gynok, Rwznak, etc.) No competent raid leader would ever bring along a Paladin simply for their so-called utility in a support role. So we don't run around rezzing people because, frankly, we have more important things to be doing, like preventing mobs from eating the raid. Healers are busy healing and curing. That's why Dirges are typically on rez duty, because stopping to rez someone doesn't significantly interfere with their primary job in the raid.</p>

Kigneer
08-13-2009, 04:50 PM
<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You can't buy every piece of gear you need to be a MT you have to still earn it, and along the way learn how to be a good MT.</p></blockquote><p>Right there tells me you don't know or want to know how folks get T4 and don't even have to really fight for it (just make sure to do the killing blow)! lololol</p><p>You can buy the drops from zones being cleared right in chat. You can buy a pre-leveled character. Anytime of the day or night these auctions go on. No different than myth updates and getting your myth (they pre-clear the zone; and get you to the named for the kill....300pp deal).</p><p>Why I don't base how good a tank is by gear -- at all.</p>

Maamadex
08-13-2009, 07:43 PM
<p>Then why don't you buy some and stop being mediocre? I really don't understand your attitude. I spend dkp on my TSO gear I don't buy it. I tank content. You feel the paladin isn't good cause you haven't even tried to play it to its fullest. Your opinions are worthless. Don't even bother talking about raiding til you have. I don't even think I'll bother responding to any foolish comment you make anymore, because you truly are a selective reader. Read what Kordran posted, he told you exactly what your problem is.</p>

Nikadaimon
08-15-2009, 08:23 AM
<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You can't buy every piece of gear you need to be a MT you have to still earn it, and along the way learn how to be a good MT.</p></blockquote><p>Right there tells me you don't know or want to know how folks get T4 and don't even have to really fight for it (just make sure to do the killing blow)! lololol</p><p>You can buy the drops from zones being cleared right in chat. You can buy a pre-leveled character. Anytime of the day or night these auctions go on. No different than myth updates and getting your myth (they pre-clear the zone; and get you to the named for the kill....300pp deal).</p><p>Why I don't base how good a tank is by gear -- at all.</p></blockquote><p>uhm.. dont forget the gear is [Removed for Content] expensive to buy, so eventhough someone isnt getting the loot himself, but buying it.. he still we need to work (hard) for that to get the plat to buy... (generally spoken.. I know you can buy plat as well.. )</p>

Kordran
08-15-2009, 03:53 PM
<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Why I don't base how good a tank is by gear -- at all. </blockquote><p>Yes and no. The tank having gear doesn't guarantee that they'll be any good, but lacking it pretty much does guarantee that they'll suck. I don't care how well you pull, position mobs, etc. if you have mastercrafted gear, low-end jewelry, etc. then you're going to get owned in anything but the easiest instances (or you're going to require the crutch of two healers in your groups). All of your player skills don't mean jack if you're getting 2-shotted by named mobs.</p><p>Gear shouldn't be used as the only way to measure a tank, but it is one way. Like it or not, tanks <em>are</em> heavily gear dependent, no two ways around it; that means that gear is one of the things that seperates poor tanks from good ones, it's just not the only thing.</p>

Tommara
09-16-2009, 02:40 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tommara wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> Try playing a class that genuinely does have no utility (ranger for example) and then think again.</p></blockquote><p>*sob*</p><p>There's a huge amount of irony in the fact that I didn't realize how powerful my ranger's ability to debuff defense by 55, deflection and parry by 75 each, until I played a paladin.</p><p>It's not enough to make rangers desired by PuGs or other ignorants, even with Focus Aim (increases group chance to Hit by 25%, crushing, piercing, slashing by 127, a bunch of other goodies for me alone), so I appreciate you dissing ranger utility.  It helps our cause to have other classes say this, rather than having only us rangers whine about it. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Well, tbh, I play a ranger as my raiding main, followed closely by a Pal.</p><p>Actually, I think a lot of this boils down to what people mean by utility.</p><p>Rangers are, as you've pointed out, a powerful debuff class, but since most of the debuff are reduction of defence, that means its helping you do more dps, and helping everyone in the raid do more DPS.</p><p>But since a Ranger is a DPS class anyway, does that really count as utility? I don't think it does.</p><p>I'd say that for buffs to count as utility, you have to be buffing OUTSIDE your primary roll.</p></blockquote><p>I don't understand your statement that in order for buffs to count as utility, you have to be buffing outside your primary role.   So please explain.</p><p>Rangers don't just debuff defense, focus aim increases weapon to hit by 25%, and increases crushing, piercing, slashing by 127 for the entire group.  We can use a poison that can reduce the damage the tank receives, although all scouts have that ability except bards, I suspect many of us don't use it since it does nothing to improve our parse (I don't agree with that by the way.  I will do whatever is best for the group.)</p><p>My main is also a ranger, and also an 80 paladin.  If there is already a plate tank in the group, the group is better off if I bring my ranger instead of my paladin, even if there are better dps-ers in the group.  Not so with my paladin, if there are better tanks in the group. </p><p>My paladin can't be the main healer, and I doubt if I could do so even if I spec'ed it (please correct me if I am wrong.)</p><p>My ranger helps make a back-up healer unnecessary (a dead mob can't hurt you.)</p><p>Off-tanking?  Maybe.  I leveled a troubadour to 50, and am most recently working on an illusionist (level 40).  Both so far seem to be able to make OT unnecessary, and both have great buffs.</p><p>Bottom line, my paladin has only been useful so far if there isn't another plate tank in the group.  If there is, even my "non-utility" ranger is more useful.</p>