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View Full Version : First time tanking ever q's and advice...


Lilvoice
07-15-2009, 09:51 PM
<p>Hello i just got tanking wc and sh. First time ive ever tanked and i have some questions. It was me, a mentored 68 fury a mentoed 40 something swash an 17 illusionist and a 18 swash. Heres some things i noticed in no particular order.</p><p>Impossible to keep aggro from mentored swash and the other swash most of the time</p><p>Very impatient group they wanted to basicly rush everything, i wanted to take my time pull correctly aka lear body pulls learn los pulls dead with group pulls ect. i felt i was just rushed the whole time.</p><p>Dps was attacking all sortsa mobs not just assisting me</p><p>My gear is almost all mc that i made myself and a couple of my taunts are mastered, i did good on taking hits but taunts seemed to get resisted a decent amount specially the aoe taunt?</p><p>I felt i was a bad tank because i wasnt in control of every mob, it felt chaotic rushed, and as the mt i felt like i should have been controlling the flow of the group. Sadly i wasnt.</p><p>So my questions are basicly, is this normal? is this how it usually goes as far as tanking for groups? Is there anyways to counteract this if its not normal? Ive never tanked before in eq2 but i had done tons in wow, Never had probably was a good mt so i was hoping the skills would translate at least on a basic level to here in eq2. I tried to stick with the basics body pulling using aoes on groups to generate aggro on all mobs tried to keep all mobs attention on me....just didnt really work that well. I got no complaints when the group was done they all said i did a great job, however I Felt, i didnt or it coulda been better. Any advice? I dont mind all critiscm as long as its constructive. Thank you</p>

Darkor
07-16-2009, 05:44 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello i just got tanking wc and sh. First time ive ever tanked and i have some questions. It was me, a mentored 68 fury a mentoed 40 something swash an 17 illusionist and a 18 swash. Heres some things i noticed in no particular order.</p><p>Impossible to keep aggro from mentored swash and the other swash most of the time</p><p>Very impatient group they wanted to basicly rush everything, i wanted to take my time pull correctly aka lear body pulls learn los pulls dead with group pulls ect. i felt i was just rushed the whole time.</p><p>Dps was attacking all sortsa mobs not just assisting me</p><p>My gear is almost all mc that i made myself and a couple of my taunts are mastered, i did good on taking hits but taunts seemed to get resisted a decent amount specially the aoe taunt?</p><p>I felt i was a bad tank because i wasnt in control of every mob, it felt chaotic rushed, and as the mt i felt like i should have been controlling the flow of the group. Sadly i wasnt.</p><p>So my questions are basicly, is this normal? is this how it usually goes as far as tanking for groups? Is there anyways to counteract this if its not normal? Ive never tanked before in eq2 but i had done tons in wow, Never had probably was a good mt so i was hoping the skills would translate at least on a basic level to here in eq2. I tried to stick with the basics body pulling using aoes on groups to generate aggro on all mobs tried to keep all mobs attention on me....just didnt really work that well. I got no complaints when the group was done they all said i did a great job, however I Felt, i didnt or it coulda been better. Any advice? I dont mind all critiscm as long as its constructive. Thank you</p></blockquote><p>When people mentor you, this is basically normal. Why you ask? When my 80 paladin would mentor down to 20 i could probably pull the whole zone and finish it off with 3 aoes. This is the same case with your group. They are mentored down to 20  but those people keep some of their original strength. That means a lvl 80 swashy mentored down to 20 will have 4-8 times as much dps as a regular lvl 20 swashy. Now you got 2 people mentoring down, doing more damage than you and probably being able to tank better cause of their armor and spells. This is NOT something you should be worried about. In a regular group of lvl 20s, you will do your job excellent and people need to assist you unless they want to die.</p><p>Just to talk out of my experience, when i mentor people i also do rush because i know i can survive a bunch of mobs easily and theres no point in being carefull. I will survive it and i want to get it done as soon as possible. For new players this experience is probably very unsatisfying, but like i said - do not worry, in regular groups it will be much different.</p>

smogfire
07-16-2009, 02:15 PM
<p>I agree. Lately my low level char gets invites to be mentored by 80's who want AA's for killing nameds they missed when the right level.</p><p>I these groups, the usual jobs do not apply (the tank is not needed to tank)</p><p>Try groups of non-mentored and you will do fine.</p><p>I am glad to see you want to learn your character.</p><p>In the lower levels you see alot of resists, especially if the mob is yellow or higher.</p>

denmom
07-20-2009, 07:53 PM
<p>Nono, it's not you, it's <em><strong>them.</strong></em></p><p>Tanking for overclocked mentored toons is different than tanking for those of and around your level.</p><p>When my guildees and I get together for running alts thru content, it's usually a mix of any out of these with the alts, all L80's: Wizard, Illusionist, Berserker, Paladin, Warden, Dirge.  We've terrorized content from the old world maps to Over Realm to Rok to Moors of Ykesha.</p><p>Don't be discouraged.  Look for or make groups of/around your level and you'll see a difference.</p><p>Mastercrafted as you level is good, especially now that it's been adjusted for the better.  And yes, resists are there, and it sucks.  I have that with my Paladin, you should hear me curse the mobs out for resisting.  This is where studying your CA and Spell descs comes in handy, so when you get a taunt resisted you can hit with something else that can give a similar result.  Sigil of Heroism is your friend when Amends and taunts just don't have the oomph to hold against mentored toons.</p><p>Study your AAs as well, find a good path to go down to help.</p><p>Good luck! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Maamadex
07-20-2009, 08:25 PM
<p>Its hard to tank anything when you are on your low level toon and have people who mentor, its all trivial content to them and they'll just pull and feel like Gods. The real test of your tanking will come in higher lvl's with those your own level.</p>

Kordran
07-21-2009, 06:01 AM
<p>Agreed, your particular situation was probably the worst in terms of actually learning the ropes as a tank, unless the mentoring players go out of their way to accomodate you. Trust me, when you hit level 80 and mentor down for zones like Stormhold and Fallen Gate, you'll see what we're talking about -- basically, mentoring down to the lower tiers is as close to "godmode" as you can get in the game.</p><p>I think it's fantastic that you want to start grouping and learning to tank in the game at the lower levels; too many players soloquest up to 80 and then try to figure out tanking, and it's usually a mess. So just keep on doing what you're doing, and try to get together with some non-mentored players.</p><p>The Paladin forum on EQ2Flames also has some good information (look at the stickied posts) and I'd recommend giving all of that a read through. Some of it is geared towards raiding Paladins, but it's all good to know.</p>

Jgok
07-21-2009, 06:11 AM
<p>I'll second what's been stated here...</p><p>It's almost impossible for an appropriately-leveled tank to hold aggro off mentored characters, regardless of the mentored characters' classes. The caveat to this is level difference. If the mentoring character is only 10-20 levels above you, you might be able to do it. It would require some holding back on the part of the mentoring characters, and you'd have to be playing at the top of your game. More than 20 levels difference, not worth it.</p><p>If I mentor a level 20 tank on my 54 Swash, I can wait a good 10-15 seconds into the fight on an AE pull and still take aggro with one or two melee AEs (unless I'm mentoring a paladin who has Amends on me and I'm also feeding him aggro). In some mentoring situations, I've taken aggro on this character with just autoattack. It's the same with my wizard... An AE or two is all it takes to steal aggro. My 67 Conjuror and 80 Paladin are even worse. If I mentor someone with my 80 paladin, the paladin is tanking, regardless of, well, almost anything. With the conjuror, a tank mentoree just can't hold aggro off the pet. I've actually got a couple of lower-level pets that are Adept level, and I tend to use those when mentoring if I can, just to keep from being an aggro-ho.</p><p>In most mentoring situations, the people mentoring you just want to clear the zone and get the AA from the named mobs as fast as possible. Unfortunately, they don't want to let you learn how to tank, because that will "slow them down." I have to admit, I'm guilty of it too, sometimes. Often, the rest of the group does it too. A lot of lower-level characters just want to burn through a dungeon with a mentor to get the exp and loot faster. Too many people have no patience with someone who just wants to learn how to do their in-game job effectively.</p><p>All that being said, I'd like to congratulate you for actually wanting to learn your class (so few people bother these days), and give you a little advice that should help in level-appropriate groups, if not in mentored situations.</p><p>Pulling...</p><p>You're right in thinking that body pulls are the way to go (at least in dungeons). Also, don't forget to position your pulls with their backs to the group. Getting yourself used to doing this will really help in later dungeons where the mobs go all happy with the frontal AEs and ripostes.</p><p>Some basic advice for hlding aggro as a paladin...</p><p>If you're in an area where you can safely use your blue AE spells (Ancient Wrath and Holy Circle, to start), do it. Try to pull mobs to a safe point where AEs are useable without getting tons of extra mobs. Your blue AEs are great for adding a little extra hate to mobs that aren't your primary target. If you're in a AE-safe spot, dropping just those two AEs at the start of the fight will help your aggro a great deal. Later on you'll get Decree, Doom Judgement, Castigate, and Consecrate (mmm... Consecrate). You can also spec into the Stamina line on the KoS tree to get Hammer Ground, a blue AE that also knocks the enemy down, and into the Wraths line on the EoF tree to get Smite Evil, which is our highest-damage (and lowest power cost) ability. I highly recommend getting Hammer Ground to rank four as your first goal in spending AAs. It's just VERY VERY useful.</p><p>When you start a group, decide who the group will assist, and tell everyone. A lot of people are used to assisting a scout class (or another tank) instead of the main tank, as it's often necessary for a tank to switch targets. In my usual group, I often tell people to assist the berserker so I'll be left free to switch to whichever mob I need to smack.</p><p>If you have multiple mobs in a pull (whether they be an encounter, or multiple single mobs), HIT EVERY MOB. I usually open a fight by hitting the pulled target with a couple of CAs or spells, tossing Ancient Wrath on them all, and then quickly switching to each other target just long enough to land one CA on it. Since I regularly group with the same people, they know to wait until my assist target window stops twitching from mob to mob before they attack. If the group isn't even assisting you, they'll never notice you switching targets.</p><p>And for the grandaddy of paladin tanking advice...</p><p>At level 21 you get Amends. If I'm remembering right, it's also a Grandmaster choice at level 24, so don't bother upgrading it to Expert, just GM it when you hit 24. Amends will be your bread and butter aggro skill for your entire tanking career (unless they screw it over with the tank revamps). It gets its next upgrade at level 35, so you'll have 11 levels of a Grandmaster hate transfer.</p><p>When I get in a group, I start with Amends on (in order of preference) another tank, a mage, a healer, or a scout. I choose another tank first because tanks naturally generate a lot of aggro, and they don't have any hate transfers or aggro dumps (except SKs with Feign Death). Mages and priests have some aggro dumps of their own, so they're a little better off. Scouts come last in that list because they usually have a hate transfer up on you already AND they have their own aggro dumps. If someone else starts stealing aggro, switch it to them instead. Play around with it until you find the best person to put it on. It'll be different depending on the player style, gear, spell quality, etc of each group member (i.e. a rogue or predator with fabled weapons and expert/master CAs who never uses his hate transfers or aggro dumps).</p>

Odysia
08-03-2009, 11:18 AM
<p><em>"When I get in a group, I start with Amends on (in order of preference) another tank, a mage, a healer, or a scout."</em></p><p>That seems a little strange to me.</p><p>Another tank would be the last person I'd put ammends on!</p><p>Ideally you want them number 2 on the hate list so that if you get stuned / stiffled / rooted (or even killed!) they can take over. They aren't going to do that if you've been slurping on their Hate.</p><p>You should put ammends on the characters that deliver the highest DPS near the start of a fight. That way they are less likely to peel, and you get the advantage of their DPS output to give you a buffer against all the other classes.</p><p>The exception to this is if your survivability is in question and you have a priest going into healing overdrive to keep you up, in which case you may need to put ammends on them and tell your DPS classes to ease of a bit. But this should be a rarity. e.g. you have a fury thats putting out moderate DPS as well as their heals, and a bunch of low initial dps types (e.g. summoners).</p><p>Basically, give ammends to the person that you think will generate the most DPS. If uncertain, the person that will generate the most DPS in the first 5 seconds, if still uncertain the person that generates the most uneven DPS (ammends makes hate spikes easier to manage). Give it to a mentoring character rather than an 'at level' character as DPS output does not scale correctly. Tie break between AE DPS classes and Single Target DPS classes depending on the content. Obviously excelent gear versus crap is also very important.</p><p>My list (<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">everything else being equal</span></strong>) would be more like:</p><p>First: Non bard Scouts, Non summoner mages</p><p>Next: Pretty much everything else except tanks. (Summoners, Bards, most healers)</p><p>Next: Most tanks. Any low DPS healer.</p><p>Last: Gaurdian.</p><p>To the OP:</p><p>Make sure a hate transfer class actually has put it on you. E.G. the swashies you mentioned. Ammends plus a hate transfer makes Pals one of the easiest tanks to hold agro with.</p><p>There is some virtue in using defensive stance for agro control at lower levels. It boosts your agression skill and help your taunts not be resisted. A lot of players will tell you this is crap, and that DPS is king for holding agro. Well, thats sort of true. Pure DPS is a great way of generating hate and <strong>at high level</strong> we<strong> </strong>seem to get more AA + gear to improve our DPS output exponentially and the taunts kind of become poor relatives.</p><p>However, at low/mid level thats not really so true. Taunts are proportionally more important in these cases, and having them not resisted is important. The decrease in DPS output is significant, but its a definite chunk of a small number. The harsh reality is that if you are grouped with high DPS mentors, if they don't control their agro you are out of luck, <em>whichever</em> stance you're in. In these cases you might just as well let a mentoring scout tank instead of you.</p><p>I feel your pain in this regards; my pet hate is impatient players that are obsessed with levelling their character at the expense of new tanks trying to learn the rope.... who then go on to moan that people don't know how to tank. (Hello? Cause and effect anyone?)</p><p>All we can do is give you pointers for same level groups really.</p>

Maamadex
08-03-2009, 07:53 PM
<p>The day I put Amends on a healer is the day I retire my feathered helmet. I'll probably find myself in such a situation now that I made such a declarative statement. However! I rarely put it on another tank either. It really depends on the player, and the players in my group. You can't say you always put Amends on such and such. Its really dependent on who will garner the highest hate besides yourself. I also disagree about defensive stance being any kind of benefit low or midlevel either unless its for survivability. I'd rather be able to hit with my weapon etc than my taunts which don't really do as much comparatively.</p>

Kigneer
08-10-2009, 09:24 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hello i just got tanking wc and sh. First time ive ever tanked and i have some questions. It was me, a mentored 68 fury a mentoed 40 something swash an 17 illusionist and a 18 swash. Heres some things i noticed in no particular order.</p><p>Impossible to keep aggro from mentored swash and the other swash most of the time</p><p>Very impatient group they wanted to basicly rush everything, i wanted to take my time pull correctly aka lear body pulls learn los pulls dead with group pulls ect. i felt i was just rushed the whole time.</p><p>Dps was attacking all sortsa mobs not just assisting me</p><p>My gear is almost all mc that i made myself and a couple of my taunts are mastered, i did good on taking hits but taunts seemed to get resisted a decent amount specially the aoe taunt?</p><p>I felt i was a bad tank because i wasnt in control of every mob, it felt chaotic rushed, and as the mt i felt like i should have been controlling the flow of the group. Sadly i wasnt.</p><p>So my questions are basicly, is this normal? is this how it usually goes as far as tanking for groups? Is there anyways to counteract this if its not normal? Ive never tanked before in eq2 but i had done tons in wow, Never had probably was a good mt so i was hoping the skills would translate at least on a basic level to here in eq2. I tried to stick with the basics body pulling using aoes on groups to generate aggro on all mobs tried to keep all mobs attention on me....just didnt really work that well. I got no complaints when the group was done they all said i did a great job, however I Felt, i didnt or it coulda been better. Any advice? I dont mind all critiscm as long as its constructive. Thank you</p></blockquote><p>This is very true, as many who play EQ2 now are alts of mains and been through the content 1000000x by now. You won't learn much about the maps; how to taunt; or much of any other tanking essentials with these fast crawlers (these are vets who power leveling and want to burn the midnight oil to 80). This is NOT healthy for you as you'll learn bad habits that's harder to unlearn when you're 60+ level. Frustration you won't need.</p><p>Your best bet is to link up with another tank who'll mentor you through a zone together. That way there's more time to learn the maps so later you can mentor other low level characters and new EQ2 players.</p><p>Secondly, you won't hold aggro well until end-game, you will fight every step of the way to keep it on you, as a Pally won't get the big hate spells until late (and rescue isn't much help with it's long recast time). Make sure to also inform your group, especially high dps characters to start casting/hitting small until you lock down the hate (usually Pallies ask the party to get one or two hits in to lock the hate, before everyone else starts casting/hitting). This is essential until your taunts are expert level or higher (which today isn't much done as people level so fast that an expert spell is worthless in days until level 70).</p><p>Thirdly, also remember that tank's motto, "If you pull it, you tank it". That usually keeps the DPS characters from making your job impossible -- a couple of deaths are a nice reminder that the tank runs the show. Important to know this when you encounter a main's alt who's a tank and wants to tell you your job, when they're a squishy now. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Lastly, a tank's role besides holding the hate and being a training dummy for Norrath is to maintain order in a chaotic fight. You will at times feel like you didn't manage the fight well (especially post-fight). But if the encounters didn't result in any or few deaths, folks got their quest(s) done, and there's some loot to keep them happy, your group won't mind too much for those "oops" pulls and other mishaps. End-game tanks make it look very easy, just remember you're not there yet, and "oops" are expected.</p><p>One final note, also know when to leave a group as well. Some groups are just not the right mix and over time you'll know which can survive and what can't (get the proggie ACT to help to judge as well). Some zones require very high dps; others drastic healing, and if they can't keep up (like you're casting more heals to survive than taunting and hitting), as a tank it's your job to call a group a wrap (as you don't want to be deep in a zone, and your dps or healers start dropping as they know they can't go further. Wasting everyone's time).</p>

Kordran
08-10-2009, 01:46 PM
<p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Secondly, you won't hold aggro well until end-game, you will fight every step of the way to keep it on you, as a Pally won't get the big hate spells until late (and rescue isn't much help with it's long recast time). Make sure to also inform your group, especially high dps characters to start casting/hitting small until you lock down the hate (usually Pallies ask the party to get one or two hits in to lock the hate, before everyone else starts casting/hitting). This is essential until your taunts are expert level or higher (which today isn't much done as people level so fast that an expert spell is worthless in days until level 70).</blockquote><p>A Paladin should be able to manage aggro just fine at the lower levels. Once he hits level 21, he gets Amends I and as long as he places that on the appropriate person in the group and isn't completely undergeared, he shouldn't have any problem. Taunts are actually a very small component of a Paladin's threat generation; the AE taunt (Righteousness) is important to use, but that's because it has a divine debuff associated with it, not specifically because of the threat it generates. And taunts can proc certain spells/abilities, but taunts aren't the way that you hold aggro as any fighter. In short, go ahead and use taunts, they're fast recast and won't interfere with your casting order, but don't expect too much from them.</p><p>Lastly, don't overlook DPS. Some people have this notion that because they're a tank, particularly a defensive plate tank like the Paladin, that they should just focus on defense and not worry so much about the damage that they're doing. That's simply wrong. In this game, your damage output is a huge portion of your aggo control and if your DPS is in the basement, you're going to have trouble holding aggro on anything, even with Amends. A significant portion of your DPS (~60%) is autoattack damage, so you need to learn to time your combat arts and spells so that you're not delaying your autoattack swings in between. A relatively slow, 1H weapon with a good damage spread is what you should be shooting for.</p>

Jgok
09-26-2009, 09:00 PM
<p><cite>Maamadex wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The day I put Amends on a healer is the day I retire my feathered helmet. I'll probably find myself in such a situation now that I made such a declarative statement. However! I rarely put it on another tank either. It really depends on the player, and the players in my group. You can't say you always put Amends on such and such. Its really dependent on who will garner the highest hate besides yourself. I also disagree about defensive stance being any kind of benefit low or midlevel either unless its for survivability. I'd rather be able to hit with my weapon etc than my taunts which don't really do as much comparatively.</p></blockquote><p>You know, I used to say that, until I met a templar who can drop 170k in heals on me in an 80 second boss fight while also dps'ing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>In some situations, it's actually better for me to amends him, especially if it's an AE fight and the group is full of single-target dps'ers.</p><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kigneer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Secondly, you won't hold aggro well until end-game, you will fight every step of the way to keep it on you, as a Pally won't get the big hate spells until late (and rescue isn't much help with it's long recast time). Make sure to also inform your group, especially high dps characters to start casting/hitting small until you lock down the hate (usually Pallies ask the party to get one or two hits in to lock the hate, before everyone else starts casting/hitting). This is essential until your taunts are expert level or higher (which today isn't much done as people level so fast that an expert spell is worthless in days until level 70).</blockquote><p>A Paladin should be able to manage aggro just fine at the lower levels. Once he hits level 21, he gets Amends I and as long as he places that on the appropriate person in the group and isn't completely undergeared, he shouldn't have any problem. Taunts are actually a very small component of a Paladin's threat generation; the AE taunt (Righteousness) is important to use, but that's because it has a divine debuff associated with it, not specifically because of the threat it generates. And taunts can proc certain spells/abilities, but taunts aren't the way that you hold aggro as any fighter. In short, go ahead and use taunts, they're fast recast and won't interfere with your casting order, but don't expect too much from them.</p><p>Lastly, don't overlook DPS. Some people have this notion that because they're a tank, particularly a defensive plate tank like the Paladin, that they should just focus on defense and not worry so much about the damage that they're doing. That's simply wrong. In this game, your damage output is a huge portion of your aggo control and if your DPS is in the basement, you're going to have trouble holding aggro on anything, even with Amends. A significant portion of your DPS (~60%) is autoattack damage, so you need to learn to time your combat arts and spells so that you're not delaying your autoattack swings in between. A relatively slow, 1H weapon with a good damage spread is what you should be shooting for.</p></blockquote><p>Kordran is right, IMO. Taunts are useful (especially Righteousness), but they're not going to hold the mobs by themselves. The good thing about paladin taunts is the threat over time... They're still ticking away while you're also using other abilities. Timing your combat arts and spell casts so that they don't interfere with your autoattack, and making sure to get every mob in combat hit with 'something' is key to holding aggro.</p><p>But of course, a level 20 of any class is going to have trouble holding agro off anyone who's mentored down from 80.</p>