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View Full Version : Epic storylines!.....Epic futility?


Morghus
07-07-2009, 09:38 PM
<p>Warning, rant and spoilers ahead.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></p><p>So...each expansion has given us generally one epic questline that involves either grouping and or raiding. This has been bothering me for quite some time and it may very well be a stylistic choice but as of late most of these storylines seem either anticlimatic in presentation, or simply tend to show off how incompetent your player character apparently is, and how unimportant "non-spotlight" (I'm looking at you Mayong) characters are. I've always liked the everquest series for its lore, but the amount we see is not as it should be!</p><p>1. Deception: The first "epic" storyline. Its actually done rather well compared to most of the others as far as I can tell. There is decent build up of the story, it makes sense to the established lore. There is also a decent/tolerable amount of interaction/conversation with your antagonist although not much is said of his motives.</p><p>2. Peacock/Ring of fate: Another decent one, the ring of fate storyline was quite interesting and felt very much like the epic storyline it was meant to be, and meshed well with the overall theme/feeling of the expansion. It revealed Anashti Sul among other things.</p><p>3. Claymore: This one was also rather good at first, although seemed to begin the futility trend. The storyline of the quest always felt as though it was going to "go places" especially due to early allusions to Kerafyrm's possible involvement in the lore. It eventually just ends with the item you were searching for being right in front of your nose all along and your mission overall is a failure.</p><p>4. Swords of Destiny: This one was rather interesting in parts, but overall felt very underwhelming. It didnt help that the entire second act was a massive time-sink. It plays out in a rather mundane way as it is mostly like claymore just a search for x legendary item. In the end you defeat Mayong and return the weapon to Lucan.</p><p>5. Fate of Norrath: This should have been the big one, and there was every opportunity to make it so. You are sent after Venril, Selrach, the Leviathan, and Trakanon himself. But wait? This quest is honestly even more bland than Swords of Destiny! It amounts to little more than a sprinkling of lore here and there from Fiddy Bobick followed by more killing.</p><p>You are given utterly no lore or information as to each of the individuals you presumably "perma-kill". There is no information as to Venril's raising of his descendants, or how he left Karnor's castle and retook Sebilis. There is nothing about Selrach's ascension from prince to Overking, and only slight and vague hints at what the Di'zok have been up to.</p><p>And Trakanon, supposedly one of the more powerful dragons complete with the power of foresight...and touted in many sources as one of the wisest beings on Norrath is summarily taken down with literally no build up at all. He says a few things when you face him but little else.</p><p>Heck, you are even given access to Trakanon's lair after killing ALL the other dragons (who also get no lore/flavor by the way) by a sarnak JANITOR.</p><p>This is the dragon who Queen Elizerain of the Elddar trusted with Eylee's notes about the void invasion. This is the dragon who took it upon himself to spark a war that set the Iksar race back for hundreds of years when they were at the height of power and ready to conquer/enslave Norrath like their Shissar masters.</p><p>There is no buildup and little or no information about them, especially in the case of Selrach and Trakanon. Trakanon suddenly went from a decaying husk to a healthy blue dragon as he was described to be before his battle with the Iksar. He also is suddenly made leader of the Ring of Scale, which he was a founding member of. There is however no explanation as to how/why he was made leader, no explanation of Khalen Dar or what happened to Phara Dar either.</p><p>For all we know Phara Dar went nuts and got locked up, Khalen Dar is their child(not too far fetched really, if we go with the hostile takeover idea it could have been a show of dominance, combined with the two being prospective mates before the war with the Iksar), and Trakanon might well have been trying to stop the void invasion/ages end just as we are and instead of any explanation of anything we are lead around on a string by the void posessed Fiddy Bobick and just kill the entire Ring of Scale as though they were all "No longer relevant to the lore".</p><p>Then we run into Mayong once again, who obviously wont stay dead and is clearly some writer's pet character. Not only is he "alive" and well, but our previous success in taking Soulfire is revealed to have been "just as he planned". I was very disappointed in this one.</p><p>6. Shadow Odyssey: This one honestly felt even more bland. Not only did you go running about left and right but you had to clear most of the new instances, and one of the harder ones. I did like revisiting Obelisk of Lost Souls and meeting the Ethernauts but that alone would not save it.</p><p>In the end players defeat Varsoon and the Ethernauts disappear with Anashti. On the raiding end of things though you destroy Anashti's physical presence in the void, allowing her to return to Norrath and reclaim a place amongst the other deities. In the end your exploits end up futile as Theer is apparently returning anyways and everything we and the ethernauts did was more or less for naught.</p><p>So in summation, I'm hoping for some good lore and NPC interactions in the coming expansion(s), and hopefully more closure on past events and the fates/motives of characters that are typically written off as just bosses, despite clearly having their own story (quests from the entire Ring of Scale in eqlive with enough faction for example that sometimes told you more about them). Oh and less incompetant player characters please and more bosses with voicework!</p>

Homeskillet
07-07-2009, 10:31 PM
<p>I completely agree with this. Everywhere you were sent for the original Deception quest was coherant and made sense, even going and killing King Drayek had a reason and an awesome meet in with the Sage of Ages/Darathar.</p><p>The whole issue with Kunark really peeved me as well. They don't explain how Trakanon supplanted Phara Dar as the leader of the Ring and why. They also don't touch on the fact that they were indeed lovers, a certain dragon we killed a couple times happens to be their son; Venekor. This though we glean only from developers and tidbits of lore on the forums. Venekor was a plot device used in Spirits of the Lost, apparently had a hideout in the Overrealm, but dies in the most anti-climactic sense.</p><p>I really do feel the developers should revisit what their predecessor's did with the original game's storyline.</p>

Morghus
07-07-2009, 10:40 PM
<p><cite>Homeskillet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I completely agree with this. Everywhere you were sent for the original Deception quest was coherant and made sense, even going and killing King Drayek had a reason and an awesome meet in with the Sage of Ages/Darathar.</p><p>The whole issue with Kunark really peeved me as well. They don't explain how Trakanon supplanted Phara Dar as the leader of the Ring and why. They also don't touch on the fact that they were indeed lovers, a certain dragon we killed a couple times happens to be their son; Venekor. This though we glean only from developers and tidbits of lore on the forums. Venekor was a plot device used in Spirits of the Lost, apparently had a hideout in the Overrealm, but dies in the most anti-climactic sense.</p><p>I really do feel the developers should revisit what their predecessor's did with the original game's storyline.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, this! The trophy of venekor states that we might see him again, though some say that he died in Halls of the Seeing...but an old post to a fansite by Jindrack who I think was lore dev a while back stated that Venekor successfully fled from the overrealm. If Khalen was indeed Trakanon and Phara Dar's offspring, it would make them Venekor's half brother/sister as Toxxulia was hinted at being Venekor's mother and Trakanon the father..explaining both his noxious affinity, eqlive Trakanon loots and his supposed foresight. Overall some very mixed messages as to his current status.</p><p>The lore and characters of the game seem overly cheap and wasted lately, their stories untold and with no resolution combined with Mayong being everywhere.</p>

Cusashorn
07-07-2009, 10:45 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> eqlive Trakanon loots</p></blockquote><p>I believe one of the devs once stated that he's a total Clepto in that regard.</p>

Morghus
07-07-2009, 10:53 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> eqlive Trakanon loots</p></blockquote><p>I believe one of the devs once stated that he's a total Clepto in that regard.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, the entire reason he surrounded himself with indifferent golem sentinels in his lair in the overrealm. But the foresight, and the hints dropped so long ago of him being the product of Toxxulia + Trakanon (never confirmed or denied) but the eqlive Trakanon loot is too big of a hint/reference since it was so out of place and specifically Trakanon's.</p><p>I mean he is still as far as we know fairly young for dragon standards, but to steal from a dragon like Trakanon just because he's a clepto...or to spite him for never being a proper father figure? That is assuming it is even true and that he even knew it, Toxxulia appearing in Odus to confirm/deny it in some form would be nice!</p>

Noaani
07-08-2009, 03:54 AM
<p>The way I see it, the Claymore line, Sword of Destiny line, Fate of Norrath line and Ethernauts line are not finished.</p><p>Claymore, Sword of Destiny and Ethernauts will all finish in the next expansion when we (presumably) deal with Theer. Each of those quest series was a lead up to that point, so I am still hopfully of an acceptable outcome.</p><p>Fate of Norrath is vaugly connected to each of the above (via the void connection), but I would assume it will continue past the next expansion, unless it is expanded on a lot in the next two live updates.</p>

Cusashorn
07-08-2009, 04:05 AM
<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The way I see it, the Claymore line, Sword of Destiny line, Fate of Norrath line and Ethernauts line are not finished.</p><p>Claymore, Sword of Destiny and Ethernauts will all finish in the next expansion when we (presumably) deal with Theer. Each of those quest series was a lead up to that point, so I am still hopfully of an acceptable outcome.</p><p>Fate of Norrath is vaugly connected to each of the above (via the void connection), but I would assume it will continue past the next expansion, unless it is expanded on a lot in the next two live updates.</p></blockquote><p>The Fate of Norrath was just to warn us of the void invasion that takes place in TSO. It's come and gone.</p><p>The devs have stated that Odus will be the final end to the Void storyline. It's over. Thank goodness.</p>

Noaani
07-08-2009, 04:17 AM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The way I see it, the Claymore line, Sword of Destiny line, Fate of Norrath line and Ethernauts line are not finished.</p><p>Claymore, Sword of Destiny and Ethernauts will all finish in the next expansion when we (presumably) deal with Theer. Each of those quest series was a lead up to that point, so I am still hopfully of an acceptable outcome.</p><p>Fate of Norrath is vaugly connected to each of the above (via the void connection), but I would assume it will continue past the next expansion, unless it is expanded on a lot in the next two live updates.</p></blockquote><p>The Fate of Norrath was just to warn us of the void invasion that takes place in TSO. It's come and gone.</p><p>The devs have stated that Odus will be the final end to the Void storyline. It's over. Thank goodness.</p></blockquote><p>It also provided us with the Chelsith Stone, so its not finished with until the Chelsith Stone has been finished with. That may well happen in the next expansion, but I'd be supprised.</p>

Coniaric
07-08-2009, 05:25 AM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Fate of Norrath was just to warn us of the void invasion that takes place in TSO. It's come and gone.</p></blockquote><p>Are you sure of that?</p>

Rainmare
07-08-2009, 05:49 AM
<p>Mayong as a 'pet character' isn't quite so cut and dried.</p><p>if you noticed in Eq1, and in the inner sanctum of Eq2.....Mayong is quite powerful in his own right. quite frankly there's no way a group of 24 people could beat mayong in combat. he's literally that powerful.</p><p>Mayong's motive and plans are becuase he knows more then we do, and he knows how to play us like well tuned harps. he has had several millenia of practice at it.</p><p>he allows us to take Soulfire. because Lucan has some part to play with it. he took soulfire from D'vinn, becuase he wanted to know about it's link to Age's End and the prophecies. once he found that out...he let it go.</p><p>the claymore line was a refresher in my opinon, as well as Soulfire. the good guys didn't win, they didn't triumph for a change. yes we went after Deathtoll, put ourselves in debt to naggy in the process...but we didn't get Exonus. We went after Soulfire..got it...and then, hoping to spare the Queen of New Tunaria..we handed it over to Lucan who of course, didn't keep his word. (or at least that how he hints to it though the chaberlain laughs at his promise of torture)</p><p>the fate of Norrath reveals the chelsith stone. We know how venril came back into power. we go through all this trouble, to reclaim the stone...and destroy the greenmist oubliette. we find one of the medallions are missing..who has it? Trakanon.</p><p>When we confront Trak, he claims that we must die for the prophecy to be fufilled. I think his 'prophecy' is that the stone would be made whole. he just assumes we die after facing him, he'd take the stone, and put his medallion in it. But we best him, complete the stone and take it back to Fiddy, where Mayong tells us what it is, it's relation to Age's End..and lets us keep it till he needs it. his motive is simple. we're not tough enough yet. hanging a marker in our home saying 'age's end is coming' should motivate us to grow stronger.</p><p>with the oddessy, we basically learn about the first time this happened, and how they were beaten back. we finish the job the ethernaught's started, severing the links Anashti had to norrath. anashti get forced into her palace...the ethernaughts disappear. we don't know what actually happens to them..but we assume they are dead.</p><p>Anashti is locked in the void in her physical form. she can't physically cross between. when we kill her, we release her from the physical restriction. like the ethereal shadowedmen, she can leave the Void and does so. I chalk that up to a poke at the non lore raid people. they basically put is a little jab with the 'you were so eager for loot and riches that you let the Goddess of Undeath back into norrath accidentally'.</p><p>the storyline hasn't disappointed me so far. in fact, the only one I have been dissaointed in was Deception.it was too long, mostly becuase it was blantly obvious the Sage of Ages was teh villain from the first or second time you talk to him. (when he sends you to learn dragon tongue). frankly by the time we were killing the giant, I was already waiting to see the sage show up and reveal himself as the bad guy. granted, I didn't expect him as a dragon, but still.</p><p>at least with claymore and soulfire...you were seeking weapons. following clues, learning a little about the weapons as you went along. you didn't know halfway through Claymore about Deathtoll as it's supposed resting place. you don't even learn Mayong has Soulfire till about halfway or so into it.</p><p>I mean when I foudn out Soulfire was in mayong's hands..my thoughts were 'okay...how the hell am I going to get it back?' unlike deception, where halfway through I was going 'can we please just kill the Sage of Ages already?!'</p>

Morghus
07-08-2009, 07:00 AM
<p>I may be playing the whole "Mayong pet character" a little too liberally, but he certainly comes off that way to me. In eqlive he didnt even exist as an npc until later on, early in the game he was an invincible GM controlled character who moved certain plot points forward whenever those rare events happened...even going so far as to "award" some people with the title "Eternity's Knight".</p><p>Later, he actually manages to ascend to godhood and ruled the demiplane of blood. In eq2 though, we are basically told that he gave up being a god because "it bored" him? <strong>Really</strong>? We face him in combat not once, but three possible times in EoF if you count them each as a seperate encounter in different points of time.</p><p>In EoF, he was likely hanging around Lenya Thex not only to corrupt her as we have seen, forcing her to relinquish her mantle as Queen of the elves but possibly also beause he thought she had the prophetic ability of Elizerain. His influence over her may very well have had something to do with the drastic measures taken by the New Tunarians as well.</p><p>As for Trakanon and the Ring of Scale....the Ethernauts were clearly able to gain an audience with them. The outcome of that however obviously was not to their favor particularly but we can chalk that up to the frequent blunders made by the player races, and dragonkind's tendency of taking the fate of Norrath as a personal responsibility.</p><p>Trakanon was supposed to have been very wise, and was personally given Eylee's notes by Queen Elizerain. He personally took it upon himself to attack the Iksar, forfeiting his position as a founding member and general of the Ring of Scale because he viewed them as a genuine threat to dragonkind, and Norrath.</p><p>Killing Trakanon, and all of the dragons in Veeshan's Peak could not have been something "<strong>that just happened to work out</strong>" for Mayong since he has made no secret in eq1 that he and his kind are fierce enemies of dragonkind. I just dont really understand why killing them all was the only option.</p><p>The epic questlines recently just seem to love invoking the "tropes" "<a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero" target="_blank">Nice job Breaking it hero</a>" and "<a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSucker" target="_blank">Xanatos Sucker</a>".</p><p>There are just too many loose ends, unexplained events, and characters apparently being killed off/removed from the plot just for the sake of it. More than half the time we dont even know if we really killed someone unless its mentioned elsewhere, or in Lenya Thex's case she is simply moved along as hopeless and might as well be dead.</p><p>What I'm trying to say is that I genuinely feel alot of characters in the storyline are being wasted possibly just because the writers may not want to handle so many personalities, let alone characters that have established history in Norrath.</p><p>Characters like Lucan D'lere and Antonia Bayle have remained more or less untouchable for good reason. Being able to really kill them and have it count as part of the story just cheapens their story like with Opal Darkbriar, she was a character who was built up all the way from eqlive only to be killed and left face down in the gutter by every Assassin working on their Mythical.</p><p>With major antagonists there should be buildup, there should be conflict and interaction, there should be more motive to why we would seriously want to kill them than "<strong>oh look they're over there, lets kill each other</strong>". I hate to bring other games into this, but Guild Wars, and even WoW has cutscenes before and after or sometimes during their major encounters. In Guild wars you would actually see your antagonists rather frequently through cutscenes that sometimes showed their perspective. Granted WoW probably has a bigger budget, but Guild Wars is <strong>Free to Play</strong>.</p><p>Trakanon for example is never even seen or mentioned till that particular step of the quest, and when you do meet/fight him he doesnt even say more than around three sentences total in all his text. The other dragons fare off much worse and each have probably one sentence spoken at most. Adding cutscenes to better flesh out certain things (hint hint) would be nice.</p><p>If we get to Velious and end up perma-killing Tserina, any of the gods, all the main dragons and Kerafyrm, and Jaled Dar's shade (somehow) I'll probably know that I'm done with this game as by then it would have become beyond ridiculous. In other words, <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleil4s0matfkiy?from=Main.EverybodysDeadDave" target="_blank">I'll</a> be <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger" target="_blank">done</a>.</p>

Noaani
07-08-2009, 07:11 AM
<p>Cutscenes in raid zones would be a bad idea, unless it is at the beginning of the zone (such as WoE). While it may be good from a lore percpective, it would just break the flow of a raid.</p>

Morghus
07-08-2009, 07:26 AM
<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Cutscenes in raid zones would be a bad idea, unless it is at the beginning of the zone (such as WoE). While it may be good from a lore percpective, it would just break the flow of a raid.</p></blockquote><p>I personally think the way Guild Wars handled it was good. You would have cutscenes at specific points during a map, usually explaining something further in like a rockslide etc. Another one right before a major fight giving you a good view of the area and an idea of the situation, and a last one the moment the battle ended concluding the story.</p><p>These scenes also only really played for important events like a battle against an end boss, or against someone who might have betrayed you along the way etc. The cutscenes could be skipped even if you hadnt seen that particular scene before as well.</p><p>In the cutscenes, it is set up so that if any of the players were required to speak to an npc during the scene, it would always be the group leader that would be shown speaking while everyone else stood by.</p>

RaphaNissi
07-08-2009, 11:38 AM
<p>It is realized that each of these majoy story lines is connected to each other right?  It's telling one big backstory to the whole game.  With each of the quests we get a piece of the larger puzzle.  Tie them all together and there is a lot more lore in there than one may realize. </p>

Barx
07-08-2009, 11:54 AM
<p><cite>RaphaNissi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is realized that each of these majoy story lines is connected to each other right?  It's telling one big backstory to the whole game.  With each of the quests we get a piece of the larger puzzle.  Tie them all together and there is a lot more lore in there than one may realize. </p></blockquote><p>Indeed. I do think that this next expansion will bring a lot of the lore full circle, though. It is, after all, the end of the void timeline as well as the end of the lore that Vhalen originally projected out. In that regard I think we'll see a lot of old questions answered... but at the same time this expansion will likely introduce / serve as a prelude to a new (probably shorter, expansion-wise) story arc. The new lore Dev(s) don't want to lock themselves into such a long timeline like we now see coming to a close, it'll be interesting to see exactly how far out they foreshadow things to come. Either way, I can't wait for this new expansion... February seems so far away <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

Cusashorn
07-08-2009, 02:12 PM
<p><cite>Lord_Ebon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RaphaNissi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is realized that each of these majoy story lines is connected to each other right?  It's telling one big backstory to the whole game.  With each of the quests we get a piece of the larger puzzle.  Tie them all together and there is a lot more lore in there than one may realize. </p></blockquote><p>Indeed. I do think that this next expansion will bring a lot of the lore full circle, though. It is, after all, the end of the void timeline as well as the end of the lore that Vhalen originally projected out. In that regard I think we'll see a lot of old questions answered... but at the same time this expansion will likely introduce / serve as a prelude to a new (probably shorter, expansion-wise) story arc. The new lore Dev(s) don't want to lock themselves into such a long timeline like we now see coming to a close, it'll be interesting to see exactly how far out they foreshadow things to come. Either way, I can't wait for this new expansion... February seems so far away <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Actually, TSO was the end of the lore that Vhalen fully projected out. Odus is all new.</p>

Noaani
07-08-2009, 02:16 PM
<p>I would have assumed he at least plotted out the extent of the void story line.</p><p>It just doesn't seem like he would leave a story unfinished that was as important to him as the void was.</p>

Cusashorn
07-08-2009, 02:18 PM
<p>He told me when he left that "The next expansion", meaning TSO, was the last expansion that he plotted out the lore for. Everyone from here on is all up to the other devs, and the new Lore Dorf.</p>

Noaani
07-08-2009, 02:24 PM
<p>I'm aware of that.</p><p>What I am saying is that in what he said to you, he had planned out the end of the void story line, and the developers just decided to put the last portion of that in the expansion after TSO.</p><p>As I said, it just seems odd that he would do 95% of a storyline that is important to him and then leave without doing the last 5%. Odd enough for me to assume he finished the void storyline off.</p>

Cusashorn
07-08-2009, 02:28 PM
<p>Actually, we really don't know if he planned out what the devs are going to put out in the next expansion. I don't know if he planned this whole Theer/God Destroyer twist or not. He probably would have wrapped up the storyline with TSO if he had.</p><p>I don't know, I'm just making conjecture here. Only he can really say.</p>

Lodrelhai
07-08-2009, 06:33 PM
<p>I honestly think the Peacock Club storyline was the best done, simply because the raid content was saved until the end.  By the time casuals/non-raiders got to the point we couldn't progress, we had the whole story.  Aside from getting completely manipulated at the begining (and really, really wanting an option to kick some gang tuckus), it was a well-done and interesting storyline available to the majority of players.</p><p>Compare this to KoS, where you can't even get the first step done unless you raid.  I remember when they revamped the raid progression, making it so either the Leviathan OR Venril unlocked the next zone.  Hard-cores were griping, and I commented that at least now lorists might be able to progress Fiddy's quest line one step further, since it only required one or the other, not both.  I got asked why any non-raider would even do that quest line, since it was only about the raid progression.  Maybe because it was the only quest line in the entire frakking expansion that said anything about the story line which had been building up since the game's launch?</p><p>The new variable difficulty raid zones offers me a little hope - maybe at least pickup raids will be able to work the quest lines in the future.  Even so... how often does a raid stop to actually pay attention to the story?  If the NPCs actually say something before attacking, that time is used by the raid leader to give some last-minute reminders about placement and strategy.  Plus everyone who has them putting on their short-duration buffs.  More often than not, most of the raid isn't even in range to hear what the NPC said even if we wanted to - we're back in the previous room or up against the wall waiting for the pull.  Even in this thread, the suggestion of cut scenes to explain story points and flesh out what's going on was met with, "It will break up the flow of the raid."</p><p>I've been on pickup raids in the past.  I stopped going because they are rushed times where performance and loot are the primary focus and any thoughts of paying attention to the lore are not just secondary, but detrimental.  Heck, I stopped doing most pickup GROUPS because of this - I'm trying to read what the NPC actually says, and the rest of the group fast-clicked through the dialogue and is now killing the next update mob.  Fortunately most of my guild is of the same mindset as me, so when we can gather together a full group to hit a zone, we take our time and enjoy the story.</p><p>Maybe the reason the signature quests have been lacking in details and impact is because they're designed to be accessed by the players who, for the most part, ignore the storyline in pursuit of the phat lewtz.  I don't begrudge them their loot - they work their hind quarters off for it - but I'm tired of them begrudging me my story.</p>

Morghus
07-08-2009, 07:19 PM
<p>Well, as the person who started this post about the lore (or lack thereof in the recent epic storylines), I guess I would probably be in the minority as I raid and have completed every single one of the current storylines and am very peeved at the lack of resolution/explanation to alot of questions, events, and characters.</p><p>I've followed the lore since eqlive and the shreds of story we have right now may very well be a larger part of the whole, but the parts currently dont color me impressed, and if the whole wants to impress me it better well blow my socks off, and even then by their track record I am highly doubting that and only see wasted opportunities and characters.</p><p>I personally feel that killing off/writing away the various characters as of late has only caused disservice to the story and history of Norrath. It seems the writers may be in something of a hurry to do away with old characters who originate from eqlive. They arent even being written off/killed in a good way either...none of them that we kill even get to go in dignity. It just shows blatant disregard for the characters.</p><p>Opal Darkbriar is easily killed by every assassin working on their mythical, Trakanon's coffee was apparently laced with a dragon-ready dose of <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotInducedStupidity" target="_blank">plot induced stupidity</a>, The Ethernauts who we learned of just before this current expansion are gone with the expansion, Lenya and Marcus Thex are both no longer able to rule New Tunaria potentially dooming its people, the list just goes on.</p><p>Heck, I cant even remember there being any storywise reason at all in raiding Emerald Halls. The entire act up to and including killing Wuoshi just felt incredibly awkward and without purpose. Killing off even the members of the Awakened cult was more coherent, though there was still little explained about them...there was still more explained than with Emerald Halls or the Fate of Norrath.</p><p>The Fate of Norrath overall just felt like a brute-forced vehicle to start up the Void storyline and just happens to involve the players essentially toppling the leaders of every dominant faction in Kunark to the point where even a single underling surviving would be miraculous. Come Everquest 3 Kunark would probably be entirely controlled by Teren....ugh...that is if they dont decide to retcon the current mess we've made.</p><p>Now I understand if it may be difficult to properly write such characters, especially when they were such integral parts of the game world's history...but if they honestly cant get it right and just end up shaming the characters...they may as well not use them until they can be properly utilized rather than writing them with the stupidity I mentioned or other forms of being out of character for the sake of moving a plotline that people already want to end!</p><p>And please...no more <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModeSue" target="_blank">Mayong</a>.</p>

Kunaak
07-08-2009, 07:40 PM
<p>man after reading this post, makes me wish I actually paid attention to some of the storys on these quests.</p>

Rezikai
07-09-2009, 03:55 AM
<p><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I honestly think the Peacock Club storyline was the best done, simply because the raid content was saved until the end.  By the time casuals/non-raiders got to the point we couldn't progress, we had the whole story.  Aside from getting completely manipulated at the begining (and really, really wanting an option to kick some gang tuckus), it was a well-done and interesting storyline available to the majority of players.</p><p>Compare this to KoS, where you can't even get the first step done unless you raid.  I remember when they revamped the raid progression, making it so either the <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Leviathan</span> <span style="color: #ff9900;">Overking</span> OR Venril unlocked the next zone <span style="color: #ff9900;"><strong>(Leviathan in Cod)</strong></span>.  Hard-cores were griping, and I commented that at least now lorists might be able to progress Fiddy's quest line one step further, since it only required one or the other, not both.  I got asked why any non-raider would even do that quest line, since it was only about the raid progression.  Maybe because it was the only quest line in the entire frakking expansion that said anything about the story line which had been building up since the game's launch?</p><p>The new variable difficulty raid zones offers me a little hope - maybe at least pickup raids will be able to work the quest lines in the future.  Even so... how often does a raid stop to actually pay attention to the story?  If the NPCs actually say something before attacking, that time is used by the raid leader to give some last-minute reminders about placement and strategy.  Plus everyone who has them putting on their short-duration buffs.  More often than not, most of the raid isn't even in range to hear what the NPC said even if we wanted to - we're back in the previous room or up against the wall waiting for the pull.  Even in this thread, the suggestion of cut scenes to explain story points and flesh out what's going on was met with, "It will break up the flow of the raid."</p><p>I've been on pickup raids in the past.  I stopped going because they are rushed times where performance and loot are the primary focus and any thoughts of paying attention to the lore are not just secondary, but detrimental.  Heck, I stopped doing most pickup GROUPS because of this - I'm trying to read what the NPC actually says, and the rest of the group fast-clicked through the dialogue and is now killing the next update mob.  Fortunately most of my guild is of the same mindset as me, so when we can gather together a full group to hit a zone, we take our time and enjoy the story.</p><p>Maybe the reason the signature quests have been lacking in details and impact is because they're designed to be accessed by the players who, for the most part, ignore the storyline in pursuit of the phat lewtz.  I don't begrudge them their loot - they work their hind quarters off for it - but I'm tired of them begrudging me my story.</p></blockquote><p>Highlighted the fix for ya there Lod. ... hehe.</p><p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, as the person who started this post about the lore (or lack thereof in the recent epic storylines), I guess I would probably be in the minority as I raid and have completed every single one of the current storylines and am very peeved at the lack of resolution/explanation to alot of questions, events, and characters.</p><p>I've followed the lore since eqlive and the shreds of story we have right now may very well be a larger part of the whole, but the parts currently dont color me impressed, and if the whole wants to impress me it better well blow my socks off, and even then by their track record I am highly doubting that and only see wasted opportunities and characters.</p><p>I personally feel that killing off/writing away the various characters as of late has only caused disservice to the story and history of Norrath. It seems the writers may be in something of a hurry to do away with old characters who originate from eqlive. They arent even being written off/killed in a good way either...none of them that we kill even get to go in dignity. It just shows blatant disregard for the characters.</p><p>Opal Darkbriar is easily killed by every assassin working on their mythical, Trakanon's coffee was apparently laced with a dragon-ready dose of <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotInducedStupidity" target="_blank">plot induced stupidity</a>, The Ethernauts who we learned of just before this current expansion are gone with the expansion, Lenya and Marcus Thex are both no longer able to rule New Tunaria potentially dooming its people, the list just goes on.</p><p>Heck, I cant even remember there being any storywise reason at all in raiding Emerald Halls. The entire act up to and including killing Wuoshi just felt incredibly awkward and without purpose. Killing off even the members of the Awakened cult was more coherent, though there was still little explained about them...there was still more explained than with Emerald Halls or the Fate of Norrath.</p><p>The Fate of Norrath overall just felt like a brute-forced vehicle to start up the Void storyline and just happens to involve the players essentially toppling the leaders of every dominant faction in Kunark to the point where even a single underling surviving would be miraculous. Come Everquest 3 Kunark would probably be entirely controlled by Teren....ugh...that is if they dont decide to retcon the current mess we've made.</p><p>Now I understand if it may be difficult to properly write such characters, especially when they were such integral parts of the game world's history...but if they honestly cant get it right and just end up shaming the characters...they may as well not use them until they can be properly utilized rather than writing them with the stupidity I mentioned or other forms of being out of character for the sake of moving a plotline that people already want to end!</p><p>And please...no more <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModeSue" target="_blank">Mayong</a>.</p></blockquote><p>Well I do agree I hope future slayings of characters are more, well... fleshed out. However as a raider and lore nut as well I do agree with some of what your saying for build-up. I hated that no story was used at all after we killed Woushi, nor any for any of the 3 Mayong kills, except the rune of Sunder showing up as the animation/movie.</p><p>However I do like the cryptic mystery Vhalen put alot of the storylines/plot twists with. As a raider I hear other raiders tout Fire and Ice / Deception as their most loved lore for progression. They tell me they liked the story so well. Which if you like your lore in a story handed to you and with very few plot designs/twists and raids basically to complete each step then to each their own. Myself i liked some of Godking i just hated the setting, it was supposed to be a drawn out adventure w/LITERAL tombraiding in it. But the advancement was so bottlenecked due to the small size of Sinking Sands and Living Tombs/Silent City that it felt too cramped to me, Pillars of Flame and clefts were hardly part of that story nor was returning to alot if any of the old shattered lands.</p><p>At least Deception had us going around the old shattered lands albeit we had to raid a ton after getting the 26 runes but we still didnt have to spend a bunch of time in 1 place. Like SoS and the claymore, that was painfull. But there was more of a cryptic mystery to be unlocked in those quests as they progressed the story of the expac. Which even though it was a pain with the bottlenecks i prefered over the "Nagafen says kill these drakota, now he says kill this other dragon Darathar".. go there! ohnoes he was the sage of ages! deceptions story was more,.. well bland to me. I wont even go into the RoK progression story because aside from the rambling of a possed halfling, 1 sentence of  floating ghost of a serpent chief, 2 sentences of Trakanon 2.0,  or a paragraph womanizing vampire, we dont get much lore at all in ROK aside from the posts made about it here on these boards.</p><p>With TsO we got alot of build up with the lore of each of the characters, and learning more of their quests. We then get to go around the different heroic areas, and find the stories associated with them and the areas so thats OK. But the delivery for the main storyline, lacked to me, we meet the Ethernaughts they fight Anashti, and they are sucked into a portal. We fight Varsoon, he dies here, (now a 2nd time as we killed him in the chamber of Immortality before) we dont get much of a story other then what we tell the gnomes in Firmroot and the respected leader of each human city. ... it irked me we never seen Varsoon's cup.. the small drinking cup with runes on it that he said of all his travels and artifacts found, this cup from the void was most important.</p><p>But my spirits are lifted a little with the cut-scenes, while some dont like them before or during raids, I do like them to lead into the story of the Rime and the earier rougher ones w/ Anashti's prophet. Some during the start of a raid, or to triggered by advancement through a zone I actually enjoy seeing.</p>

Morghus
07-09-2009, 05:17 AM
<p>Deception was indeed a bit blunt on its aspects, but it was still coherent and made sense...none of the characters were truly out of character and were true to how we would expect them to act.</p><p>The cutscenes make me feel somewhat better as well, but the damage overall has already been done to many characters by killing them off. We are not talking just random individuals but near legendary/important figures in Norrath's history. If we assume that every dragon is killed for good, that would mean the entire <a href="http://everquest.allakhazam.com/scenery/fieldofbone-bones.jpg" target="_blank">Dar bloodline</a> has more or less been destroyed with nothing left of that first brood bloodline.</p><p>And as far as Varsoon goes we never actually killed him in the Chamber of Immortality, but merely severed his remaining link to Norrath as by then he was already in the void presumably working in the Palace of Ferzhul. He was likely projecting an himself much as the shadowed men have making his form unstable and hazy. By destroying his link then his connection/ability to interct in any tangible way with Norrath was removed, and he remarks that vengeance would be his to enjoy when you face him in the palace.</p><p>Wuoshi was one thing that really, really upset me. If you knew what to look for...there were MANY signs that killing him was likely "not a good thing". First off, the one that struck at me immediately was the fact that he uses a couple abilities that Tunare's avatar itself wields. Now if he were indeed corrupt, not only would those abilities have likely beens tripped from his soul but the entirety of the Emerald Halls was quite ready to eagerly defend him, thus if he were corrupt, ALL of the others either must have been corrupt as well or were ignorant.</p><p>Also when you go to speak with him on the Tunare diety quest he may indeed come off as rather angry, but he more or less mirrored Tunare's own sentiments towards the issues you presented to him. Not only that, but the bloom of growth in the Emerald Halls is clearly seen to be as pure and immaculate as the location it is housed in, and Wuoshi is constantly patrolling around it dutifully. <a href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/screenshots/eof/large/23.jpg" target="_blank">Wuoshi corrupt</a>? Yea I dont think so, not when the Avatar of the god you kneeled to is one zone away.</p><p>Barakah and Siyamak from the DoF expansion also had a very interesting and somewhat tragic story to them, they were both tricked into being enslaved to the Djinn Master, who's death is never brought up and the two dragons either are assumed dead as well or faded into obscurity.</p><p>Devs have in the past touched upon Venekor's upbringing and his parents, but it is never explored in-game in any way, shape, or form. What kind of a reaction could have been garnered from him reuniting with his mother or father? How much angry dragon angst could the young dragon have exploded with? If my supposition on Khalen/Trakanon/Phara is true I could just picture Venekor saying something to the effect of "You abandoned me, took your dead friend's daughter as a wife and had another son/daughter with her? What the heck?!"</p><p>Or how about Marcus and Lenya Thex? Helping them could have very well lead to reforming New Tunaria as many people would have liked but we might as well simply assume that the New Tunarian's are done for as Mayong continues to probably harass and pillage them.</p><p>And Opal Darkbriar, she was the foci. One of the few individuals who survived from eqlive to eq2's history and she doubled as both the Wizard and Necromancer guild master of Freeport in eqlive. Sure she likely was on Lucan's black list after what she had done, but they could have at the very least made her a worthy epic x4 somewhere between levi and venril in difficulty with tons of difficult adds. A character that influential and powerful being an epic x2 is just a complete joke.</p><p>There are just too many wasted opportunities here. Any major boss worth their salt in the lore never say enough for you to get a feel for them or their motives, they could have simply replaced Trakanon with any other dragon existing or imagined for the plot and it would be no different as he was greatly out of character.</p><p>"Oh hey, I'm a dragon with the ability to predict the future, I'm one of the oldest and wisest dragons around, I was <a href="http://wikkin.com/tribulation/screenshots/seb_trakanon_001.jpg" target="_blank">undead/rotting</a> but <a href="http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d125/Aranous/b1663905.jpg" target="_blank">got better</a>, I'll just leave this neat little artifact in my lair that anyone who challenges me can use against me to remove the majority of my abilities...and I'll slowly lower the platform we are on into the lava to hinder them even though by the time it would have started moving I would already be dead. Oh and there is absolutely no way we can come to any sort of compromise since we are only talking about the fate of Norrath here and there is no way I could possibly do more good by listening to them for a moment and then using my considerable knowledge to help battle against the threat from the void that is coming that may well doom Norrath which I hold sacred and would do anything to defend even if it casts me in a bad light, a threat that I knew about a long time ago because I trusted and was given notes by an Elven Queen who if I followed my current plot induced logic would not have listened to."<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></p><p>It saddens me that the overall combined speech/text from every single raid/heroic boss in-game (lore relevant or not) does not even amount to the dialogue/text from the first maybe 4 or so quests on the starter isles.</p><p>Yea...I'm pretty bitter about this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" /></p>

Cusashorn
07-09-2009, 12:40 PM
<p>The thing that sucks the most about Opal Darkbriar for me, is that Vhalen gave us clues towards the body found in Nektulos Forest, and said that *ALL* players would be able to discover what happened to that housing inspector in Freeport and be rewarded as such.</p><p>Then the epic quests are released, and only assassin actually find out what happens because the body is the starter.</p>

kartikeya
07-10-2009, 05:25 AM
<p>My biggest complaint somewhat echoes what lots of other people have said, but I'll sum it up:</p><p>"There is far too little lore actually presented in the game as opposed to on the boards."</p><p>and</p><p>"While I raid, there are tons and tons of people who do NOT raid, and when the only pertinent lore to the overarching storyline, however scarce (see above) it is, only happens on raids, I think it really sucks that only a small percentage of folks will ever get to see it."</p><p>I want the big bosses to talk. I want them to do things, I want them to give me an idea of why I'm there fighting them and what they're about. I find nothing so frustrating as silent or nearly-silent big named baddies like Phara Dar or Trakanon (as mentioned, he says a line or two, but that's just really really inadequate). Anashti taunting us in Palace? Sure, she still didn't say much, but it filled me with glee that at least she said SOMETHING, and reacted to what you did. That's cool, more of that. Much more. I want the bosses to seem like characters, not just things to smush for their loot.</p><p>An example: I recently had a discussion with a good friend of mine. This friend was going on and on about how dumb the entire Void plotline was, because there pretty much was no plot line and it felt really stupid. Why was he saying this? Because he didn't KNOW the plotline. Why didn't he know it? Because he doesn't board lurk and he hadn't read the (excellent, by the way) stories that were released on the website prior to TSO release. When I actually explained it to him, he noted that it was kind've interesting, but pointed out that he couldn't have learned most of it without actually leaving the game and rooting through the forums. The vast majority of EQ2's lore, especially the intricate details, never shows up in game at all, or it's a name or a random thing that is so obscure that no one notices or knows what it references because it's probably referencing something that, again, only showed up on the lore boards.</p><p>Another example: go ask someone in game who doesn't lurk on this board who the heck Theer is. They won't have the slightest, slightest clue.</p><p>There are always things people won't like in the lore, and I'm no different, but for the most part I really do like EQ2's storylines and lore bits. It just frustrates me that they so rarely actually show up as things you can learn, or at least learn completely, ingame, and even more rarely do they actually impact the game in noticeable ways.</p><p>I hope in the future the devs can work at interweaving the storyline more completely into the game. Cut scenes and more dialogue are a good start.</p>

Cusashorn
07-10-2009, 05:48 AM
<p><cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My biggest complaint somewhat echoes what lots of other people have said, but I'll sum it up:</p><p>"There is far too little lore actually presented in the game as opposed to on the boards."</p><p>and</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"While I raid, there are tons and tons of people who do NOT raid, and when the only pertinent lore to the overarching storyline, however scarce (see above) it is, only happens on raids, I think it really sucks that only a small percentage of folks will ever get to see it."</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">An example: I recently had a discussion with a good friend of mine. This friend was going on and on about how dumb the entire Void plotline was, because there pretty much was no plot line and it felt really stupid. Why was he saying this? Because he didn't KNOW the plotline. Why didn't he know it? Because he doesn't board lurk and he hadn't read the (excellent, by the way) stories that were released on the website prior to TSO release. When I actually explained it to him, he noted that it was kind've interesting, but pointed out that he couldn't have learned most of it without actually leaving the game and rooting through the forums. The vast majority of EQ2's lore, especially the intricate details, never shows up in game at all, or it's a name or a random thing that is so obscure that no one notices or knows what it references because it's probably referencing something that, again, only showed up on the lore boards.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Another example: go ask someone in game who doesn't lurk on this board who the heck Theer is. They won't have the slightest, slightest clue.</span></p><p>I hope in the future the devs can work at interweaving the storyline more completely into the game. Cut scenes and more dialogue are a good start.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And only about 3/100 of those raiders will actually care to learn what is going on. Everyone else is just after the phat lewts.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Complete and total agreement here. You know I still haven't completed the Claymore line simply because of that Ascent of the Awakened x2 zone standing in my Solo playing style's way? I need to kill Leviathan and gain access to Veeshan's Peak, and I haven't even zoned inside of Palace of the Awakened yet, much less the raid version of that zone. The only reason why I find out about the lore is because I scour these boards for any tiny bit of information simply because </span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-large; color: #3366ff;">I CANT OBTAIN IT IN THE GAME! I DONT RAID EXCEPT EVERY ONCE IN A BLUE MOON!</span></p><p>I know this is a Multiplayer game. I know that Multiplayer means cooperating with other players to accomplish something, but lets face it... There is <span style="font-size: xx-large;">*NOTHING*</span> more epic than having your character actually do everything themselves and actually feeling like they are actually making a significant diference and impact on the world and storyline. It actually makes you feel like a hero. At the end of all these quests, the others in your raid are never acknowledged for having helped you slay the evil god or dragon that stood in your way to unlocking and discovering the ultimate weapon and taking it back to the important figure. Never once has my friends ever been thanked. It's always been me. The quest acts like I found the weapon and slew the monster all by my lonesome self. Either change the dialogue so that *EVERYONE* is acknowledged, or change the storyline so that only *YOU* really are the only one who can do it.</p><p>The next epic storyline needs to be a single player solo mission. Give the player some super uber buffs that make us nigh invincible, sort of like when we took over that Dragon Spirit in KoS, or during the Tunare and Innoruuk Diety prequel quests where we were sent back in time and played as a famous ranger and shadowknight from the past. All our attacks did THOUSANDS of damage. It actually made me feel strong and powerful. It made me feel important.</p><p>More dialogue. More cutscenes. The Order of Rime movie is EPIC! It actually feels threatening and forboding when you watch it. It sets up who they are. Epic bosses need to be shown who and what they are.</p>

Morghus
07-10-2009, 06:37 AM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My biggest complaint somewhat echoes what lots of other people have said, but I'll sum it up:</p><p>"There is far too little lore actually presented in the game as opposed to on the boards."</p><p>and</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"While I raid, there are tons and tons of people who do NOT raid, and when the only pertinent lore to the overarching storyline, however scarce (see above) it is, only happens on raids, I think it really sucks that only a small percentage of folks will ever get to see it."</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">An example: I recently had a discussion with a good friend of mine. This friend was going on and on about how dumb the entire Void plotline was, because there pretty much was no plot line and it felt really stupid. Why was he saying this? Because he didn't KNOW the plotline. Why didn't he know it? Because he doesn't board lurk and he hadn't read the (excellent, by the way) stories that were released on the website prior to TSO release. When I actually explained it to him, he noted that it was kind've interesting, but pointed out that he couldn't have learned most of it without actually leaving the game and rooting through the forums. The vast majority of EQ2's lore, especially the intricate details, never shows up in game at all, or it's a name or a random thing that is so obscure that no one notices or knows what it references because it's probably referencing something that, again, only showed up on the lore boards.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Another example: go ask someone in game who doesn't lurk on this board who the heck Theer is. They won't have the slightest, slightest clue.</span></p><p>I hope in the future the devs can work at interweaving the storyline more completely into the game. Cut scenes and more dialogue are a good start.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And only about 3/100 of those raiders will actually care to learn what is going on. Everyone else is just after the phat lewts.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Complete and total agreement here. You know I still haven't completed the Claymore line simply because of that Ascent of the Awakened x2 zone standing in my Solo playing style's way? I need to kill Leviathan and gain access to Veeshan's Peak, and I haven't even zoned inside of Palace of the Awakened yet, much less the raid version of that zone. The only reason why I find out about the lore is because I scour these boards for any tiny bit of information simply because </span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-large; color: #3366ff;">I CANT OBTAIN IT IN THE GAME! I DONT RAID EXCEPT EVERY ONCE IN A BLUE MOON!</span></p><p>I know this is a Multiplayer game. I know that Multiplayer means cooperating with other players to accomplish something, but lets face it... There is <span style="font-size: xx-large;">*NOTHING*</span> more epic than having your character actually do everything themselves and actually feeling like they are actually making a significant diference and impact on the world and storyline. It actually makes you feel like a hero. At the end of all these quests, the others in your raid are never acknowledged for having helped you slay the evil god or dragon that stood in your way to unlocking and discovering the ultimate weapon and taking it back to the important figure. Never once has my friends ever been thanked. It's always been me. The quest acts like I found the weapon and slew the monster all by my lonesome self. Either change the dialogue so that *EVERYONE* is acknowledged, or change the storyline so that only *YOU* really are the only one who can do it.</p><p>The next epic storyline needs to be a single player solo mission. Give the player some super uber buffs that make us nigh invincible, sort of like when we took over that Dragon Spirit in KoS, or during the Tunare and Innoruuk Diety prequel quests where we were sent back in time and played as a famous ranger and shadowknight from the past. All our attacks did THOUSANDS of damage. It actually made me feel strong and powerful. It made me feel important.</p><p>More dialogue. More cutscenes. The Order of Rime movie is EPIC! It actually feels threatening and forboding when you watch it. It sets up who they are. Epic bosses need to be shown who and what they are.</p></blockquote><p>Yea, if only there really was all that much to see through raiding. I've raided just about every single one of those quest-lines and as I have posted before...was sorely disappointed in what I saw which was not much more than misused/axed characters who have in the past played important roles to the story.</p><p>They are literally just tossed aside like nothing. Little is ever said, little is ever discussed, and when they die they are simply dead like any other enemy...regardless of who they were. I know how frustrating it is to not be able to see everything, I was not always able to raid either.</p><p>The only real reason I can see for them being raid encounters is the simple logic of a single person being able to down someone like say Trakanon. He was apparently unkillable without mythicals and the various RoK raid loot...even then though his death felt cheap and unneeded to me. There is literally no reason that the dragons could not have been reasoned with during the questline.</p><p>The single largest amount of boss dialogue I ever was able to see was from Emperor Dvinn's exchange with the vampire, and even then that was not too much. Phara Dar for example literally has no more than three lines of spoken/text dialogue and none of it is of any real relevance or note. The other dragons all have two sentences or less, sometimes even none.</p><p>Byzola in shard of hate, once the conjoined twin of Dymetreax says little more than spite this, spite that. feel my scorn etc. There is no explanation as to her/its presence there or what has transpired to change it.</p><p>Gynok Moltor from what I could tell has somewhat more dialogue than normal, but he is a rather bland character overall and does not say much to indicate anything other than he has continued to cling to his hatred of Gnolls and still believes that he is defending against their "threat" and that we the raiders are aligned with them.</p><p>Well-written cutscenes would indeed help in this but as I have said before, a great deal of damage has already been done to too many characters in the lore. Opal Darkbriar is swatted aside, Trakanon is slain etc. Nobody really seems to notice but I am sure if Antonia or Lucan were downed more would cry foul.</p>

Rainmare
07-10-2009, 07:41 AM
<p>I love how people talk about 'reasoning' with the dragons. look how well that went for the Ethernaughts. oh and the 'noble trakanon' and his quest to stop the threat of the iksar empire. Trakanon didn't 'give up' his role as general. Jaled Dar kicked him the hell out for disobeying his mandate to leave the Iksar's the hell alone, and causing a massive war.</p><p>Trakanon struck first against Rile at sea. this cuased all the issues. and the war in the first place...then Ganak and Jaled Dar died in FoB. after that,  basically the dragons stayed in Skyfire, the Iksar's left it alone.</p><p>granted, Trakanon's recovery from his curse of undeath isn't very well done. but for the most part, with the exception of VERY few dragons, most of them don't think of any other race as anything worth wasting trouble on other then cooking and eating.</p><p>Xygoz, Nagafen, Darathar are the only three I can think of that actually consider(ed) the less races as something worth taking the time to bother with beyond slave labor and food. Xygoz seemed to geniunely enjoy the ethernaught's company and teaching the budding new bard about her talents. Nagafen thinks we makes wonderful pawns against others or tools to do the things he would like done for himself but can't. to Darathar, we were just pawns again.</p><p>the rest of the dragons are more of the attitude of Phara Dar from the ethernaught story. 'you are not worthy and are lucky we are even letting you stand here in our presence longer then it takes to eat you.'</p><p>And again, Trakanon's reasoning coudl be just that. a prophecy can be interpretted in a hundred ways. Trakanon obviously interperted it as he was to get all the peices to the puzzle. we come in the with Chelsith Stone in hand. his assumption of course then is 'for the prophecy to work, the raiders have to die so i get the stone.'</p><p>And you really think a dragon is going to be bothered to listen to us? that's like the cows expecting the cowboys to listen to them moo and say 'okay, thie herd gets to stay and not go to the meat market.' nope, that cowboy aint going to worry two bits about the cattle...unless of course they stampede over him and he lives through it.</p><p>I will, however, agree on Opal. she either A) shoulda been an epic x4 and one HELL of a fight, or B. gotten into neriak and became Cristanos' right hand woman.</p>

Morghus
07-10-2009, 08:48 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I love how people talk about 'reasoning' with the dragons. look how well that went for the Ethernaughts. oh and the 'noble trakanon' and his quest to stop the threat of the iksar empire. Trakanon didn't 'give up' his role as general. Jaled Dar kicked him the hell out for disobeying his mandate to leave the Iksar's the hell alone, and causing a massive war.</p><p>Trakanon struck first against Rile at sea. this cuased all the issues. and the war in the first place...then Ganak and Jaled Dar died in FoB. after that,  basically the dragons stayed in Skyfire, the Iksar's left it alone.</p><p>granted, Trakanon's recovery from his curse of undeath isn't very well done. but for the most part, with the exception of VERY few dragons, most of them don't think of any other race as anything worth wasting trouble on other then cooking and eating.</p><p>Xygoz, Nagafen, Darathar are the only three I can think of that actually consider(ed) the less races as something worth taking the time to bother with beyond slave labor and food. Xygoz seemed to geniunely enjoy the ethernaught's company and teaching the budding new bard about her talents. Nagafen thinks we makes wonderful pawns against others or tools to do the things he would like done for himself but can't. to Darathar, we were just pawns again.</p><p>the rest of the dragons are more of the attitude of Phara Dar from the ethernaught story. 'you are not worthy and are lucky we are even letting you stand here in our presence longer then it takes to eat you.'</p><p>And again, Trakanon's reasoning coudl be just that. a prophecy can be interpretted in a hundred ways. Trakanon obviously interperted it as he was to get all the peices to the puzzle. we come in the with Chelsith Stone in hand. his assumption of course then is 'for the prophecy to work, the raiders have to die so i get the stone.'</p><p>And you really think a dragon is going to be bothered to listen to us? that's like the cows expecting the cowboys to listen to them moo and say 'okay, thie herd gets to stay and not go to the meat market.' nope, that cowboy aint going to worry two bits about the cattle...unless of course they stampede over him and he lives through it.</p><p>I will, however, agree on Opal. she either A) shoulda been an epic x4 and one HELL of a fight, or B. gotten into neriak and became Cristanos' right hand woman.</p></blockquote><p>Trakanon did overall mess up quite a bit, I believe he was also partly responsible for Garudon's fate in Veksar as well by spurring him to take the course of action he did.</p><p>It is true Phara Dar's actions were rather typical but we have to keep in mind that the player races are not exactly known for having a good track record when it comes to not doing something horrendously wrong. The dragons still likely blame the player races for the retaliation from the gods that damaged Norrath.</p><p>My main issue with Trakanon is that he was touted as being wiser than most dragons and possibly one of the wisest beings on Norrath. He was actually trusted enough by Elizerain for her to give him Eylee's notes and in order for her to trust him they must have had some form of favorable interaction in order for a dragon to earn the trust of a Queen of a race that is nearly as arrogant as his own at times.</p><p>The void being that possessed Fiddy even stated that Trakanon had a love for prophecy and that he possessed the gift or curse of foresight, there isnt any real reason why someone so interested in such a subject with such an ability could not have come to or prepared for multiple possible conclusions especially with such a volatile subject as prophecies which are largely either self-fulfilling or greatly open to misinterpretation. In essence, the error he made was very much a human error despite having a greater potential intellect combined with such a long life-span.</p><p>It just doesnt properly add up. Granted he may have been in a sour mood since we essentially kill everyone else who is a part of the ring...but that aside even the crusaders of skyshrine, who's parents were the original four warders killed by the players proved that Norrath's fate was more important than their own pride or need for vengeance by aiding the players to put Kerafyrm back to sleep again despite it being the player's own fault to begin with.</p><p>And the listening to us part is somewhat given, but we are talking about the fate of Norrath. They above all else view it as both sacred and a part of their responsibility likely more so than most other races. Like any other faction, if you had enough favor they would offer quests to you in eqlive. The quest from Phara in eqlive in fact leads you to Harla's quest and results in both sorrowfully learning of Fraka's fate.</p><p>This may or may not be valid but I have to point out that in the eqlive Seeds of Destruction expansion for example, as one of the major missions you end up being sent back in time by Zeb to prevent a major cataclysm. Invaders from beyond had set about sabotaging certain key points in the timeline which results in destroying Norrath leaving only the ungod who laments its fate to the players...even Veeshan perishes in that sabotaged timeline.</p><p>One of the major missions involves helping the dragons to defeat the Iksar who are given power and weapons by these invaders so that they would win instead of the dragons. Although of course, the fate of Jaled remains unchangeable...it is more or less proven that Trakanon's belief that not stopping the Iksar at that point in time would have likely doomed Norrath in some way.</p><p>I grow tired of their trophies and horrid positioning issues in raids that amount to typically almost half of figuring the encounter. Either they be made to contribute to the plot in a relevant way or stop cluttering my screen..it is just getting trite and redundant.</p><p>The dragons should in general be taken in a new direction than what we currently have. They are either villains that are killed, or antagonists driven by a cause that is just or otherwise but not strictly villainous yet also killed. I dont really want to see us all lovey dovey with them either, it has been clear since eqlive that they are a failing race and they should either take a different stance or be made to accept their extinction gracefully if that is to be their purpose in the end anyways...Nagafen aside who we have not heard from for three expansions now though I doubt his fate will be any different.</p><p>Then again, I could simply be reading too much into this...and it all is likely simpler than I am making it out to be. Arguing about how logical certain things are in a game's lore may just be futile.</p>

Barx
07-10-2009, 09:41 AM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This may or may not be valid but I have to point out that in the eqlive Seeds of Destruction expansion for example, as one of the major missions you end up being sent back in time by Zeb to prevent a major cataclysm. Invaders from beyond had set about sabotaging certain key points in the timeline which results in destroying Norrath leaving only the ungod who laments its fate to the players...even Veeshan perishes in that sabotaged timeline.</p><p>One of the major missions involves helping the dragons to defeat the Iksar who are given power and weapons by these invaders so that they would win instead of the dragons. Although of course, the fate of Jaled remains unchangeable...it is more or less proven that Trakanon's belief that not stopping the Iksar at that point in time would have likely doomed Norrath in some way.</p><p>Then again, I could simply be reading too much into this...and it all is likely simpler than I am making it out to be.</p></blockquote><p>SoD occurs after the PoP timeline split and thus cannot automatically be considered cannon in EQ2.</p><p>That and EQ2 has enough time travelling already... I'd really hope that the EQ2 lore team doesn't consider that cannon for EQ2 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Morghus
07-10-2009, 09:59 AM
<p><cite>Lord_Ebon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This may or may not be valid but I have to point out that in the eqlive Seeds of Destruction expansion for example, as one of the major missions you end up being sent back in time by Zeb to prevent a major cataclysm. Invaders from beyond had set about sabotaging certain key points in the timeline which results in destroying Norrath leaving only the ungod who laments its fate to the players...even Veeshan perishes in that sabotaged timeline.</p><p>One of the major missions involves helping the dragons to defeat the Iksar who are given power and weapons by these invaders so that they would win instead of the dragons. Although of course, the fate of Jaled remains unchangeable...it is more or less proven that Trakanon's belief that not stopping the Iksar at that point in time would have likely doomed Norrath in some way.</p><p>Then again, I could simply be reading too much into this...and it all is likely simpler than I am making it out to be.</p></blockquote><p>SoD occurs after the PoP timeline split and thus cannot automatically be considered cannon in EQ2.</p><p>That and EQ2 has enough time travelling already... I'd really hope that the EQ2 lore team doesn't consider that cannon for EQ2 <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>That wasnt my point. My point was that provided a similar situation there is no real reason why they would not have acted in a similar manner. And the fact that timeline split or no, that specific point in history among others that are shared between the two games remains important or at least critical enough that had the event gone differently things may have indeed taken a turn for the worse...provoking the attack on that point in the alternate timeline in the first place due to its vulnerability.</p><p>Phara Dar's own words from eqlive paint a very different picture of her character than what we are told through everquest 2's lore. These as an example:</p><p>Phara Dar says 'This will do nicely, _____. I must say I'm rather impressed. We dragonkind hold little regard for the capabilities of other races, but you have shown this thinking may need revision.'</p><p>Phara Dar says 'Grand Master Marthor was a formidable foe in his day. Though an enemy, we must never show disrespect. I will return his foot to his remains once this battle has ended so that his memory remains intact.'</p><p>Phara Dar says 'Well done, _____. Tharoff was truly a necromancer of great prowess. Though of Iksar blood, I am relieved that his soul is now at peace, no longer suffering his deathless imprisonment.'</p><p>And when she finds out about Fraka:</p><p>Phara Dar says 'Poor Fraka, he was only a whelp. The betrayers have paid for their crime. While this has avenged the loss of my brother, it still does not take the pain away. Here is your reward for your trouble. Should you find this reward is not fitting, I can replace it with a different one. Now, please leave my sanctum. I need time alone.'</p><p>Either there is some kind of <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidNotDoTheResearch" target="_blank">inconsistency</a> here, or the time from eqlive and eq2 had a very negative effect on her.</p>

Erithe
07-10-2009, 11:22 AM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My biggest complaint somewhat echoes what lots of other people have said, but I'll sum it up:</p><p>"There is far too little lore actually presented in the game as opposed to on the boards."</p><p>and</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">"While I raid, there are tons and tons of people who do NOT raid, and when the only pertinent lore to the overarching storyline, however scarce (see above) it is, only happens on raids, I think it really sucks that only a small percentage of folks will ever get to see it."</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">An example: I recently had a discussion with a good friend of mine. This friend was going on and on about how dumb the entire Void plotline was, because there pretty much was no plot line and it felt really stupid. Why was he saying this? Because he didn't KNOW the plotline. Why didn't he know it? Because he doesn't board lurk and he hadn't read the (excellent, by the way) stories that were released on the website prior to TSO release. When I actually explained it to him, he noted that it was kind've interesting, but pointed out that he couldn't have learned most of it without actually leaving the game and rooting through the forums. The vast majority of EQ2's lore, especially the intricate details, never shows up in game at all, or it's a name or a random thing that is so obscure that no one notices or knows what it references because it's probably referencing something that, again, only showed up on the lore boards.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Another example: go ask someone in game who doesn't lurk on this board who the heck Theer is. They won't have the slightest, slightest clue.</span></p><p>I hope in the future the devs can work at interweaving the storyline more completely into the game. Cut scenes and more dialogue are a good start.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">And only about 3/100 of those raiders will actually care to learn what is going on. Everyone else is just after the phat lewts.</span></p><p><span style="color: #3366ff;">Complete and total agreement here. You know I still haven't completed the Claymore line simply because of that Ascent of the Awakened x2 zone standing in my Solo playing style's way? I need to kill Leviathan and gain access to Veeshan's Peak, and I haven't even zoned inside of Palace of the Awakened yet, much less the raid version of that zone. The only reason why I find out about the lore is because I scour these boards for any tiny bit of information simply because </span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-large; color: #3366ff;">I CANT OBTAIN IT IN THE GAME! I DONT RAID EXCEPT EVERY ONCE IN A BLUE MOON!</span></p><p>I know this is a Multiplayer game. I know that Multiplayer means cooperating with other players to accomplish something, but lets face it... There is <span style="font-size: xx-large;">*NOTHING*</span> more epic than having your character actually do everything themselves and actually feeling like they are actually making a significant diference and impact on the world and storyline. It actually makes you feel like a hero. At the end of all these quests, the others in your raid are never acknowledged for having helped you slay the evil god or dragon that stood in your way to unlocking and discovering the ultimate weapon and taking it back to the important figure. Never once has my friends ever been thanked. It's always been me. The quest acts like I found the weapon and slew the monster all by my lonesome self. Either change the dialogue so that *EVERYONE* is acknowledged, or change the storyline so that only *YOU* really are the only one who can do it.</p><p>The next epic storyline needs to be a single player solo mission. Give the player some super uber buffs that make us nigh invincible, sort of like when we took over that Dragon Spirit in KoS, or during the Tunare and Innoruuk Diety prequel quests where we were sent back in time and played as a famous ranger and shadowknight from the past. All our attacks did THOUSANDS of damage. It actually made me feel strong and powerful. It made me feel important.</p><p>More dialogue. More cutscenes. The Order of Rime movie is EPIC! It actually feels threatening and forboding when you watch it. It sets up who they are. Epic bosses need to be shown who and what they are.</p></blockquote><p>YES.</p><p>This is the singularly most important point that's come up on these boards in a long time.  I would be the most attentive raid goer EVER if the raids actually gave us lore.  If objects in the raid halls were clickable for information.  If there were cutscenes.  If the bosses spoke or there were books to pick up or NPC's to relay lore or any number of ways to tell the STORY rather than leaving game and trolling a forum for more information. </p><p>I do quests for lore and exp.  I get exp to level so that I may do more quests so that I may gather more lore ... also, I like making things go 'splodey in huge rains of fire ... but, mostly, it's the lore.  Playing a wizard, my character is sort of geared to know what's going on in Norrath, to finding her secrets, and trying to figure out what the heck happened to Al'Kabor.  I play to explore the world and find out what's going on in it ... my GUILD is geared toward that! </p><p>But, so far, EQ2 has been very thin on the lore content -in game-.  I used to search out NPC's in EQLive who had hints to the in game lore.  I pay attention in EQ2 to the design of dungeons, the glyphs on walls, the stuff in the dungeons, the little stories some of the NPC's tell ... just to feel that little bit more integrated into the big storyline. </p><p>The Rime series has been very entertaining so far due to the cutscene and the lore given in the quests.  It's a lot better done than some of the other quest lines.  However, I want more.  I want the Bosses to talk, and the quests to paint pictures, and there to be STUFF to click and see.  In old text games you could examine objects and learn things from them.  Why is that so hard to do in an MMO?  Why couldn't we have examined stuff in Veeshan's Peak and learned about the dragons there?  Why couldn't we have fought Trakanon, and, instead of killing him, got a dramatic scene of him saying, "Whoa! Whoa! You proved your might!  Here's the prophecy! Take this stone and defeat the void!!" or something similar.  Why couldn't the assassins have assassinated some other poor lout on Darkbriar's Orders? </p><p>I just really wish I didn't have to go to the forums to get the lore.  It's really lame and half the people in game have no clue what I'm talking about b/c they have no idea what's here.</p>

Homeskillet
07-10-2009, 01:20 PM
<p>The annoying part is, there ARE tidbits of lore in raids if you really know where to look, or how to grasp the larger pieces; mainly though they are tied to a quest. I condemn that though, because it is really reaching. You have to compile the tidbits we get from devs, lore books, and other sources into a big "ohhhhh I see now" deal. I am not saying I dislike mysteries or anything, but I do dislike certain things such as the fact that there are books by the ton and other objects lying around in zones but we barely get anything from them.</p><p>Cusa made some awesome points with it. If you raid, and don't really dig deep to find the lore, than this game will appear to have very little storyline. The devs rely excessively on a very involved lore community I think, and thus have stepped back from including as much of the lore in the game. Think about the game when it launched? Upon launch, NEARLY EVERY SINGLE ZONE, Obelisk, Zek, Enchanted Lands, Rivervale, Everfrost etc were all full of various book quests that touched upon the past decades before the game started and just general lore. This kept up through Desert of Flames, we knew what was going on, we had stories about Silent City. Gates of Anket Akhen was a WONDERFULLY designed raid zone that had hints at future things to come (Viswin and Cheroon there on orders from Mayong Mistmoore). There were stories to explain even how the Naga and Harpies came to be. KoS even continued this, but not to the same degree. My main character Solufein as book after book ligning his shelves that are loaded with history.</p><p>The death of this came when I zoned into Deathtoll, came upon a large library in the middle of Tarinax's sanctum, kept by a strange gnome and found....nothing; just a bunch of entirely cosmetic book shelves. EoF came out soon after; Obelisk of Blight had a small quest with a little bit of info of "why they were there", but not much. Mistmoore castle and Mayong's Inner Sanctum were FULL of books, I should be able to pick a few up and glean some information. Yes we did have the juicy tidbits of what Viswin had discovered about Zeb's words, or at least hypothesized. Nonetheless, this was a Castle that had stood upon Faydwer longer than recorded history, where resided a being that had ascended to godhood and gave it up, a being that holds Soulfire, the Lifeguide and other artifacts in a freaking glorified storage room and I can't pick up a book off his [Removed for Content] shelf?</p><p>It goes to show something that the Obelisk of Lost Souls had several books detailing stories of possibly other worlds, of the Voids proximity to the birth of Bertoxxulous, yet in Palace of Ferzhul the only bit of lore we get is what ties into the Ethernauts signature quest. We knew Varsoon had an interest in the Void since he studied with Everling...but really think about it; unless you are a lore hound you had no clue why this dude with the same name as the guy in that Thunderring Steppes zone was all of a sudden twelve feet tall and awesome in Anashti's domain.</p><p>When I mention lore stuff in game, even hardcore raiders go "oh wow really?" It PIQUES an interest to know there is history and story behind the elements of this game.</p><p>Frankly I think Brenlo needs to stop posting on Twitter about how much the Lore guy bores him and put a serious focus on establishing the story of this game again.</p>

kartikeya
07-10-2009, 06:28 PM
<p>I think folks would be surprised at how many raiders are interested in the lore, and would probably be just as happy as anyone else to see more of it in-game. Sure, there are folks with no interest, but there are folks with no interest in the lore in every single playstyle. Just because you like to kill big nasty things that give you nice loot doesn't mean you aren't interested in hearing what the big nasty thing says first.</p><p>And again, on the flip-side, I still say it's a damned shame that generally, the tiny, obscure bits of lore that ARE available only show up in a raid zone. Whether raiders are or are not interested in it isn't the point at all, the point is that raiders are and will be only a relatively small fraction of folks, and it's a shame that more people don't get to see it. While big giant epic storylines where you have to battle big ol' dragons will probably never be seeable outside a raid, but nothing says you can't provide huge chunks of backstory and general 'what is going on-ness' outside of the raid zone, in heroic and solo areas.</p><p>But overall, EQ2 generally just needs more. More lore ingame, more lore accessible to people of various playstyles, more cut-scenes, more dialogue, more! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p>

Rashaak
07-10-2009, 08:30 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If we get to Velious and end up perma-killing Tserina, any of the gods, all the main dragons and Kerafyrm, and Jaled Dar's shade (somehow) I'll probably know that I'm done with this game as by then it would have become beyond ridiculous. In other words, <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleil4s0matfkiy?from=Main.EverybodysDeadDave" target="_blank">I'll</a> be <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger" target="_blank">done</a>.</p></blockquote><p>Nothing is ever perm-death in EQ2, much like a cheap Horror flick like Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elmstreet...they just keep coming back, whether we like it or not. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Remember...movies have been made with less of a plot than Everquest story. Oh wait...<a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1122764/" target="_blank">nvm</a>. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Morghus
07-13-2009, 06:16 AM
<p><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If we get to Velious and end up perma-killing Tserina, any of the gods, all the main dragons and Kerafyrm, and Jaled Dar's shade (somehow) I'll probably know that I'm done with this game as by then it would have become beyond ridiculous. In other words, <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleil4s0matfkiy?from=Main.EverybodysDeadDave" target="_blank">I'll</a> be <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger" target="_blank">done</a>.</p></blockquote><p>Nothing is ever perm-death in EQ2, much like a cheap Horror flick like Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elmstreet...they just keep coming back, whether we like it or not. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Remember...movies have been made with less of a plot than Everquest story. Oh wait...<a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1122764/" target="_blank">nvm</a>. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>That isn't entirely accurate. Generally characters are either never heard of again with no resolution or information as to their fate, or they are indeed killed and mentioned as such by other sources in-game either through trophies or quests.It is generally assumed that Trakanon for example is truly dead as his trophy states as such, and the Shadow oddyssey questline makes references to scrolls taken from his lair that are hawked by adventurers.Nothing much else is said though. I'm not even sure Opal Darkbriars death is mentioned in any other source, but it is confirmed that her fate is sealed not in-game but on the forum by a developer.</p><p>It would be nice if enemies we dont actually kill flee the battle in some way and leave a chest in the room rather than dying and then appearing again giving false assumptions.</p>

ke'la
07-13-2009, 09:24 AM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The way I see it, the Claymore line, Sword of Destiny line, Fate of Norrath line and Ethernauts line are not finished.</p><p>Claymore, Sword of Destiny and Ethernauts will all finish in the next expansion when we (presumably) deal with Theer. Each of those quest series was a lead up to that point, so I am still hopfully of an acceptable outcome.</p><p>Fate of Norrath is vaugly connected to each of the above (via the void connection), but I would assume it will continue past the next expansion, unless it is expanded on a lot in the next two live updates.</p></blockquote><p>The Fate of Norrath was just to warn us of the void invasion that takes place in TSO. It's come and gone.</p><p>The devs have stated that Odus will be the final end to the Void storyline. It's over. Thank goodness.</p></blockquote><p>The Void story ends with the next expainsion, however the "End of Days" proficy stuff and the over arching story(of wich the void is only a part) is far from over, but Odus will play a large part in deturmining the final outcome.</p>

Cusashorn
07-13-2009, 12:49 PM
<p>I fail to see how the void *CANT* be the End of Days, what with the whole GIANT GALAXY SIZED BLACK HOLE that you can see in the void sucking everything up and everything.</p><p>How could there possibly be any greater threat to our universal existance than the void itself?</p>

Illine
07-13-2009, 01:10 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>With major antagonists there should be buildup, there should be conflict and interaction, there should be more motive to why we would seriously want to kill them than "<strong>oh look they're over there, lets kill each other</strong>". I hate to bring other games into this, but Guild Wars, and even WoW has cutscenes before and after or sometimes during their major encounters. In Guild wars you would actually see your antagonists rather frequently through cutscenes that sometimes showed their perspective. Granted WoW probably has a bigger budget, but Guild Wars is <strong>Free to Play</strong>.</p><p>Trakanon for example is never even seen or mentioned till that particular step of the quest, and when you do meet/fight him he doesnt even say more than around three sentences total in all his text. The other dragons fare off much worse and each have probably one sentence spoken at most. Adding cutscenes to better flesh out certain things (hint hint) would be nice.</p><p>If we get to Velious and end up perma-killing Tserina, any of the gods, all the main dragons and Kerafyrm, and Jaled Dar's shade (somehow) I'll probably know that I'm done with this game as by then it would have become beyond ridiculous. In other words, <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleil4s0matfkiy?from=Main.EverybodysDeadDave" target="_blank">I'll</a> be <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger" target="_blank">done</a>.</p></blockquote><p>or final fantasy. A friend of mine played it and with each boss, there was a cutscene.</p><p>I imagine with phara dar ... hearing her cry for her child dead ans then seing us and be prepared for battle. That way we could know a bit more about each we kill.</p><p>Not just coming, engaging, killing.</p><p>But having a talk, or hearing the boss say something without hearing us could be nice.</p><p>Like aiden in WoE ... you don't know anything about him really. Would have been nice to make a dialogue between him and najena.</p><p>I would like to know a bit more about each dragon in VP, about the mobs in palace or ykesha. Who they are, how they went back to life .. I don't know ... Who are the people with gynok on the mad crusader and so on ...</p>

Rezikai
07-13-2009, 02:54 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If we get to Velious and end up perma-killing Tserina, any of the gods, all the main dragons and Kerafyrm, and Jaled Dar's shade (somehow) I'll probably know that I'm done with this game as by then it would have become beyond ridiculous. In other words, <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleil4s0matfkiy?from=Main.EverybodysDeadDave" target="_blank">I'll</a> be <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger" target="_blank">done</a>.</p></blockquote><p>Nothing is ever perm-death in EQ2, much like a cheap Horror flick like Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elmstreet...they just keep coming back, whether we like it or not. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Remember...movies have been made with less of a plot than Everquest story. Oh wait...<a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1122764/" target="_blank">nvm</a>. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>That isn't entirely accurate. Generally characters are either never heard of again with no resolution or information as to their fate, or they are indeed killed and mentioned as such by other sources in-game either through trophies or quests.It is generally assumed that Trakanon for example is truly dead as his trophy states as such, and the Shadow oddyssey questline makes references to scrolls taken from his lair that are hawked by adventurers.Nothing much else is said though. I'm not even sure Opal Darkbriars death is mentioned in any other source, but it is confirmed that her fate is sealed not in-game but on the forum by a developer.</p><p>It would be nice if enemies we dont actually kill flee the battle in some way and leave a chest in the room rather than dying and then appearing again giving false assumptions.</p></blockquote><p>Yea, we discussed this once before. But realized the raiders would cry about a corpse for Screenshots or such. I'd prefer it to. But.. meh. its only a cosmetic issue.. what they could do is if a character dies have it animate something afterward like in KoS.. when you kill Gorenaire.. she dies.. finally. her ghost spawns crying out to Kerafyrm to lead her into the afterlife.</p>

Barx
07-13-2009, 02:59 PM
<p>I think the whole "enemy doesn't die, just flies away" idea may be something they're looking at with the scaleable difficulty. IE if normal or hard has you kill them, maybe on easy instead of killing them they appear to fly away but leave treasure behind. IE you get a corpse, but then an NPC version flies off, taunting you that you've only killed an illusion or that they've only left an illusion of their "death" behind.</p>

RaphaNissi
07-13-2009, 03:04 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I fail to see how the void *CANT* be the End of Days, what with the whole GIANT GALAXY SIZED BLACK HOLE that you can see in the void sucking everything up and everything.</p><p>How could there possibly be any greater threat to our universal existance than the void itself?</p></blockquote><p>hmm...maybe a raving mad prismatic dragon  *shrug*</p>

Rashaak
07-13-2009, 03:40 PM
<p><cite>RaphaNissi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I fail to see how the void *CANT* be the End of Days, what with the whole GIANT GALAXY SIZED BLACK HOLE that you can see in the void sucking everything up and everything.</p><p>How could there possibly be any greater threat to our universal existance than the void itself?</p></blockquote><p>hmm...maybe a raving mad prismatic dragon  *shrug*</p></blockquote><p>You'd be mad too if your were locked up for centuries too. Does that automatically make him a villian? It could be that he may be the only one to truly save Norrath.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Rainmare
07-13-2009, 05:15 PM
<p>Yes, Trakanon, Elizerain, and Elyee had the 'gift' of foresight. but that doesn't mean they see all the possible outcomes. if you were able to predict events with even a 80% degree of accuracy, you'd be touted as 'wise' too. but the gift of foresight does not mean he can't be wrong or is wrong in a vision.</p><p>Elyee told Phara Dar that all the Ethernaughts had to go into the void/battle it becuase her visions stated all the ethernaughts were there. however she obviously never had a 'vision' of that huge and life altering event of Roadyle/Miragul taking the staff.</p><p>Elizerain knew Luclin was going to blow up...but she couldn't tell you how or why. Now her prophecy to trakanon could have been about the chelsith stone made whole, or it could have been simply her words about he would hold the scrolls until they were needed again. Trakanon assumes that this is a prophecy that means Elizerain, or a representative of her, would come to get the scrolls.</p><p>when a group of armed raiders and adventurers make thier way into his lair, he then beleives that for him to keep the scrolls safe until they are needed...the raiders obviously must not survive thier encounter with him. or again, he beleives that makeing the stone whole, naturally since either a) he foresees it or b) someone (elizerain) did and told him directly of it, that he assumes he makes it whole, considering he has the missing part.</p><p>It seems to me that Trakanon, from prior actions and the present situations...relies a great deal on his gift of foresight/prophecy when planning his actions. He 'foresaw' the Iksar Empire becoming a great threat. and his own actions, drowning rile at sea, giving atrebe the throne in that action, and sparking the war in the first place, is what sparked Atrebe to create the Sokokar, which is what really made the Iksar a threat as they could now face the dragons in the air. if trakanon had done as Jaled Dar commanded and left things lie...for all we know the iksar empire would never have been a threat to the Ring, and Jaled Dar might still be alive and in charge.</p>

Cusashorn
07-13-2009, 05:42 PM
<p><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RaphaNissi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I fail to see how the void *CANT* be the End of Days, what with the whole GIANT GALAXY SIZED BLACK HOLE that you can see in the void sucking everything up and everything.</p><p>How could there possibly be any greater threat to our universal existance than the void itself?</p></blockquote><p>hmm...maybe a raving mad prismatic dragon  *shrug*</p></blockquote><p>You'd be mad too if your were locked up for centuries too. Does that automatically make him a villian? It could be that he may be the only one to truly save Norrath.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Actually, Prismatic dragons are born mentally unstable. His madness began to show before he was put to sleep. He wanted to get his revenge on the first brood for puting him to sleep. He could care less about the lesser races, though he would no doubt go after the rest of us out of boredom sooner or later.</p><p>This is the difference between Destroying the world and DESTROYING THE WORLD. The Void is the latter of those two: Actually eradicating the entire planet's physical present from the face of existance. If Kerafyrm destroys all the civilizations on the planet, at least the planet would still exist.</p>

Lodrelhai
07-13-2009, 06:02 PM
<p>That's also assuming Age's End is the complete destruction of Norrath.  It could simply be the destruction of all life as we know it - the end of the ages as recorded by the current sentient races.</p><p>If (and it's a big if, I know) these events are all happening again, if Norrath was once host to other races who were wiped out in a cataclysm that left the planet uninhabitable before Veeshan came and reshaped it for her children, then that definitely points to Norrath not being at risk - just us.</p><p>It's sort of like current ecological concerns, when people talk about saving the planet.  Earth is going to be here for a long, long time, barring impact with another Theia; the question is whether or not it will be able to sustain the majority of current life forms, particularly us, that is in doubt.</p>

Morghus
07-13-2009, 06:18 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>RaphaNissi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I fail to see how the void *CANT* be the End of Days, what with the whole GIANT GALAXY SIZED BLACK HOLE that you can see in the void sucking everything up and everything.</p><p>How could there possibly be any greater threat to our universal existance than the void itself?</p></blockquote><p>hmm...maybe a raving mad prismatic dragon  *shrug*</p></blockquote><p>You'd be mad too if your were locked up for centuries too. Does that automatically make him a villian? It could be that he may be the only one to truly save Norrath.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Actually, Prismatic dragons are born mentally unstable. His madness began to show before he was put to sleep. He wanted to get his revenge on the first brood for puting them to sleep. He could care less about the lesser races, though he would no doubt go after the rest of us out of boredom sooner or later.</p><p>This is the difference between Destroying the world and DESTROYING THE WORLD. The Void is the latter of those two: Actually eradicating the entire planet's physical present from the face of existance. If Kerafyrm destroys all the civilizations on the planet, at least the planet would still exist.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, exactly. From what I have interpreted of his madness....he essentially takes the meaning of his name far too literally. I've always assumed that he intended to wipe out all non-dragons and dragons that were not loyal to him due to his obvious god complex that is fueled by his father figure/servant the former Arch-Priest Kildrukaun who pretty much fed that growing madness since Kerafyrm was born even going so far as to promote worship to him as a physical god over his own creator.</p><p>Although secretly, Kildrukaun always wanted Kerafyrm to be his puppet...the opposite ended up happening. Most of the lore I have seen claims he was fairly stable at first but more and more exposure to his kind's war with the giants made it all the more apparent combined with Kildrukaun's prodding. In his madness, it is all too likely that he believes himself to be "the prophetic savior" he is named for...and that all who stand in his path are against him and his mass-genocidal cause.</p>

Morghus
07-13-2009, 08:32 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, Trakanon, Elizerain, and Elyee had the 'gift' of foresight. but that doesn't mean they see all the possible outcomes. if you were able to predict events with even a 80% degree of accuracy, you'd be touted as 'wise' too. but the gift of foresight does not mean he can't be wrong or is wrong in a vision.</p><p>Elyee told Phara Dar that all the Ethernaughts had to go into the void/battle it becuase her visions stated all the ethernaughts were there. however she obviously never had a 'vision' of that huge and life altering event of Roadyle/Miragul taking the staff.</p><p>Elizerain knew Luclin was going to blow up...but she couldn't tell you how or why. Now her prophecy to trakanon could have been about the chelsith stone made whole, or it could have been simply her words about he would hold the scrolls until they were needed again. Trakanon assumes that this is a prophecy that means Elizerain, or a representative of her, would come to get the scrolls.</p><p>when a group of armed raiders and adventurers make thier way into his lair, he then beleives that for him to keep the scrolls safe until they are needed...the raiders obviously must not survive thier encounter with him. or again, he beleives that makeing the stone whole, naturally since either a) he foresees it or b) someone (elizerain) did and told him directly of it, that he assumes he makes it whole, considering he has the missing part.</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">That is certainly possible, though one would think he would have learned better than to take prophecies at face value after over 600 some odd years at the least of being partially undead/dying. Another possibility that a friend off-handedly brought up is that when we faced him, his judgement may have been tainted. Considering that we kill all of the other dragons just to get to him including Phara Dar who he used to love. Though there is nothing to suggest as such it's possible that despite his calm demeanor when we face him that he was in fact SEETHING on the inside.</span></p><p>It seems to me that Trakanon, from prior actions and the present situations...relies a great deal on his gift of foresight/prophecy when planning his actions. He 'foresaw' the Iksar Empire becoming a great threat. and his own actions, drowning rile at sea, giving atrebe the throne in that action, and sparking the war in the first place, is what sparked Atrebe to create the Sokokar, which is what really made the Iksar a threat as they could now face the dragons in the air. if trakanon had done as Jaled Dar commanded and left things lie...for all we know the iksar empire would never have been a threat to the Ring, and Jaled Dar might still be alive and in charge.</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">Yes, but keep in mind that in the written lore for the original Rise of Kunark it states that Trakanon did not call for attacking the Iksar for dragonkind's own sake, but rather on behalf of all races.The Iksar were originally enslaved to the Shissar and accumulated power largely by studying their former masters.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">In all likelihood they would have acted much as the Shissar did and enslaved all the races of Norrath much as they themselves had been in the name of Cazic Thule. Now the validity/scapegoat of Trakanon's apparent claim can be questionable but I have a feeling that at one time he may very well have felt at least a little for the other races and may have seen a kindred spirit in Elizerain and took refuge in the fact that they shared the same ability and was not the only "freak".</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">Cant remember where my friend saw this, I believe it may have been from one of the rpg books or from a past discussion:</span></p><p><span style="overflow: auto;">Queen Elizerain was the Queen of the Elves on Faydwer. She had a prophetic ability that helped her keep her people safe and on the path they were taking after the fall of Takish'Hiz. But there was one prophecy she always had that she couldnt discuss with anyone and it wasn't pleasant. She only discussed this prophecy with one other creature, the great blue wyrm Trakanon. After discussing this with him he went on to change from noble to semi-evil in hopes of preventing the prophecy from happening.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">The actual text of the prophecy I believe has already been posted once on these boards, and is stated to have been engraved on the walls of Elizerain's tomb and written in Elder Dragon.</span></p></blockquote><p>Anyhow, as to my original point, the best way I think that could possibly fix the issues with unexplained/unexplored lore points could be:</p><p>1. To prevent future issues from cropping up they could use more cutscenes and more speech/dialogue from names including cutscenes that present dialogue/actions even when your character isnt physically present, giving you ideas as to their motives/actions.</p><p>2. Make liberal use of developer made/placed lore books in the form of perhaps lost memos/journals/accounts either from the point of view of certain NPCs or from a second hand source....like say Silverwing or Xygoz writing about Trakanon becoming leader of the Ring of Scale, or a Di'zok steward's journal on Prince Selrach's ascension to Overking etc.</p><p>3. (Not likely to happen due to the amount of programming/writing/assets required) The developers could take some cues from eqlive and implement a version of the "Monster Missions". Though several of them were clearly interpretations of what happened, an interpretation would be better than nothing though I would prefer a true re-living of certain events from a character's point of view.</p>

ke'la
07-13-2009, 09:08 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, Trakanon, Elizerain, and Elyee had the 'gift' of foresight. but that doesn't mean they see all the possible outcomes. if you were able to predict events with even a 80% degree of accuracy, you'd be touted as 'wise' too. but the gift of foresight does not mean he can't be wrong or is wrong in a vision.</p><p>Elyee told Phara Dar that all the Ethernaughts had to go into the void/battle it becuase her visions stated all the ethernaughts were there. however she obviously never had a 'vision' of that huge and life altering event of Roadyle/Miragul taking the staff.</p><p>Elizerain knew Luclin was going to blow up...but she couldn't tell you how or why. Now her prophecy to trakanon could have been about the chelsith stone made whole, or it could have been simply her words about he would hold the scrolls until they were needed again. Trakanon assumes that this is a prophecy that means Elizerain, or a representative of her, would come to get the scrolls.</p><p>when a group of armed raiders and adventurers make thier way into his lair, he then beleives that for him to keep the scrolls safe until they are needed...the raiders obviously must not survive thier encounter with him. or again, he beleives that makeing the stone whole, naturally since either a) he foresees it or b) someone (elizerain) did and told him directly of it, that he assumes he makes it whole, considering he has the missing part.</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">That is certainly possible, though one would think he would have learned better than to take prophecies at face value after over 600 some odd years at the least of being partially undead/dying. Another possibility that a friend off-handedly brought up is that when we faced him, his judgement may have been tainted. Considering that we kill all of the other dragons just to get to him including Phara Dar who he used to love. Though there is nothing to suggest as such it's possible that despite his calm demeanor when we face him that he was in fact SEETHING on the inside.</span></p><p>It seems to me that Trakanon, from prior actions and the present situations...relies a great deal on his gift of foresight/prophecy when planning his actions. He 'foresaw' the Iksar Empire becoming a great threat. and his own actions, drowning rile at sea, giving atrebe the throne in that action, and sparking the war in the first place, is what sparked Atrebe to create the Sokokar, which is what really made the Iksar a threat as they could now face the dragons in the air. if trakanon had done as Jaled Dar commanded and left things lie...for all we know the iksar empire would never have been a threat to the Ring, and Jaled Dar might still be alive and in charge.</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">Yes, but keep in mind that in the written lore for the original Rise of Kunark it states that Trakanon did not call for attacking the Iksar for dragonkind's own sake, but rather on behalf of all races.The Iksar were originally enslaved to the Shissar and accumulated power largely by studying their former masters.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">In all likelihood they would have acted much as the Shissar did and enslaved all the races of Norrath much as they themselves had been in the name of Cazic Thule. Now the validity/scapegoat of Trakanon's apparent claim can be questionable but I have a feeling that at one time he may very well have felt at least a little for the other races and may have seen a kindred spirit in Elizerain and took refuge in the fact that they shared the same ability and was not the only "freak".</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">Cant remember where my friend saw this, I believe it may have been from one of the rpg books or from a past discussion:</span></p><p><span style="overflow: auto;">Queen Elizerain was the Queen of the Elves on Faydwer. She had a prophetic ability that helped her keep her people safe and on the path they were taking after the fall of Takish'Hiz. But there was one prophecy she always had that she couldnt discuss with anyone and it wasn't pleasant. She only discussed this prophecy with one other creature, the great blue wyrm Trakanon. After discussing this with him he went on to change from noble to semi-evil in hopes of preventing the prophecy from happening.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00;">The actual text of the prophecy I believe has already been posted once on these boards, and is stated to have been engraved on the walls of Elizerain's tomb and written in Elder Dragon.</span></p></blockquote><p>Anyhow, as to my original point, the best way I think that could possibly fix the issues with unexplained/unexplored lore points could be:</p><p>1. To prevent future issues from cropping up they could use more cutscenes and more speech/dialogue from names including cutscenes that present dialogue/actions even when your character isnt physically present, giving you ideas as to their motives/actions.</p><p>2. Make liberal use of developer made/placed lore books in the form of perhaps lost memos/journals/accounts either from the point of view of certain NPCs or from a second hand source....like say Silverwing or Xygoz writing about Trakanon becoming leader of the Ring of Scale, or a Di'zok steward's journal on Prince Selrach's ascension to Overking etc.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;">They are accually doing that, part of the run up to Sentanal's Fate is the addtion of "lost" lore books that will be placed on merchants in game... a side effect of this is the ablity of players to make thier own lore books, bascially they made it easier to make lore books, so they could get the lore out faster, and this allowed them to offer the tool to players as well...atleast thats my opionion of how player lore books got added.</span></p><p>3. (Not likely to happen due to the amount of programming/writing/assets required) The developers could take some cues from eqlive and implement a version of the "Monster Missions". Though several of them were clearly interpretations of what happened, an interpretation would be better than nothing though I would prefer a true re-living of certain events from a character's point of view.</p></blockquote>

Morghus
07-13-2009, 09:28 PM
<p>Yes, I suspect as much though I am highly pessimistic as to them actually addressing some of the points I and others have mentioned. I am expecting the lore books being released to be on subjects relating directly to the next expansion and beyond and there will likely be little to no mention of the issues in this thread as they all relate to characters/events from past expansions that are to be left behind us yet left unexplained or explained with no satisfactory detail.</p>

Morghus
07-15-2009, 08:58 PM
<p>Well the release of the first "lore book" seems promising especially in how it was hidden away in existing content relevant to its topics. My previous assumption though on them only being related to recent/upcoming content seems true though unless our new dev is ever let out to go revisit some of the sore points mentioned in this thread. Overall, I just dont really see it happening and the points brought up here may just be left to rot in uncertainty and left unanswered as usual.</p>

Illine
07-16-2009, 07:50 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yes, Trakanon, Elizerain, and Elyee had the 'gift' of foresight. but that doesn't mean they see all the possible outcomes. if you were able to predict events with even a 80% degree of accuracy, you'd be touted as 'wise' too. but the gift of foresight does not mean he can't be wrong or is wrong in a vision.</p></blockquote><p>and anyway, usually people who can predict the future can't predict their fate.</p><p>So trakanon, to see what would happen to him ... would have needed another to tell him what would happen.</p>

Neskonlith
07-16-2009, 03:44 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well the release of the first "lore book" seems promising especially in how it was hidden away in existing content relevant to its topics. My previous assumption though on them only being related to recent/upcoming content seems true though unless <span style="color: #ff0000;">our new dev is ever let out to go revisit some of the sore points mentioned in this thread</span>. Overall, I just dont really see it happening and the points brought up here may just be left to rot in uncertainty and left unanswered as usual.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Could part of the issue be that the Dev doesn't have nearly enough time to deeply glean information from this forum section?  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The information in this overall section can sometimes get very intricate and dense with prose, and what we view as some very salient points are then easily lost in the shuffle unless special efforts are made to keep them current or stickied.  Has anyone enjoyed much success getting a response using the monthly "<strong><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=749" target="_blank">Dev Q&A</a></strong>" section?  </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">My recent thread post on the wimpy Gods of Norrath in EQ2 had practical gameplay implications in another section, and I'm hoping that it's location has at least captured some new eyes and attention over how Everquest lore is being adapted in EQ2 - if we don't find valid and effective ways to speak up, then SOE will most likely assume no one really cares or notices.</span></p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/0320a00cb4bb5629ab9fc2bc1fcc4e9e.gif" border="0" /></p>

Morghus
07-16-2009, 10:33 PM
<p>I generally find it something of a waste of time to attempt placing my opinion in the questions and answers threads. Lots of times questions end up mistakenly cut off/unanswered and the most inane/easy to answer questions are always replied to rather than topics of interest that require more than a few seconds of thinking.</p><p>As you can probably tell, I am probably one of the few people around who genuinely feels regret at how underutilized certain characters are as well as their quick and easy dismissals from the lore especially when said characters have been a part of it since the first game. I however do not see anyone going back to expand upon the missed/squandered opportunities at characterization and lore.</p><p>The devs tend to have a penchant it seems for simply moving forward and ignoring the past to the detriment of many on some occassions. I mean the entrance animation for Trakanon (moon-walking instead of flying down) along with the glitch of his model disappearing when a raid wipes has been in-game since the RoK expansion came out and STILL has yet to be fixed.</p><p>I just hope they manage to make Velious and its storyline tolerable/coherent. The void storyline has grown stale for me, and I have an utter disgust/hatred of all things erudite and vampire so I hold no expectations for the next expansion's lore. Kunark as a land rich with history is simply wasted with all its major players being killed off wtihout even doing them justice.</p>

Methrill.Rundran
08-01-2009, 08:46 PM
<p>I loved the Claymore questline , its dragon lore, and all its hints at a greater story to come involving Kerafyrm. Is it true though that the one member of SoE who has a grasp of the strategic story of the dragons... quit some time ago? Hence the weak "flicker-click" storylines of late?</p>

Cusashorn
08-01-2009, 09:34 PM
<p><cite>Methrill.Rundran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I loved the Claymore questline , its dragon lore, and all its hints at a greater story to come involving Kerafyrm. Is it true though that the one member of SoE who has a grasp of the strategic story of the dragons... quit some time ago? Hence the weak "flicker-click" storylines of late?</p></blockquote><p>Yes, Vhalen, the Developer in charge of lore for both Everquest and Everquest 2 since Everquest first started, left the game over a year ago.</p><p>After Kingdom of Sky, it was determined that the dragons would no longer serve a major part of Norrath's development, so thier time is past. Vhalen plotted out all of the current expansion's lore before he left though. The other developers helped out as well though. It wasn't all just him working on everything.</p>

ke'la
08-02-2009, 12:50 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Methrill.Rundran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I loved the Claymore questline , its dragon lore, and all its hints at a greater story to come involving Kerafyrm. Is it true though that the one member of SoE who has a grasp of the strategic story of the dragons... quit some time ago? Hence the weak "flicker-click" storylines of late?</p></blockquote><p>Yes, Vhalen, the Developer in charge of lore for both Everquest and Everquest 2 since Everquest first started, left the game over a year ago.</p><p>After Kingdom of Sky, it was determined that the dragons would no longer serve a major part of Norrath's development, so thier time is past. Vhalen plotted out all of the current expansion's lore before he left though. The other developers helped out as well though. It wasn't all just him working on everything.</p></blockquote><p>My understanding is that he built the Skellinton of the Major Story Arc for EQ2 which included the Waining of the Dragons and the Rise of the Void, and maybe even some stuff beyond that. However, it is up to the current Lore Dev(s) to put meat on those bones.</p><p>Kinda like he said we need to go from Point A to Point Z, but the points in between are upto the current dev team.</p><p>For exsample, "Something" happened to the Erudodites, that idea was likly Vhalen's, what that something was, we will hopefully find out in Sentanal's Fate, and those particulars where, I am sure, the idea of the current lore dev team.</p>

Cusashorn
08-02-2009, 12:59 PM
<p>He told me that he completely developed TSO's storyline. Everything from here on is up to the new guys now.</p>

teddyboy4
08-02-2009, 06:26 PM
<p>Well.....when Vhalen reffered to TSO, I think it more likely he was probably reffering to the Void story as a whole, and not just that his material was all used up with TSO and that everything from here on out will come from some one else. Maybe I'm wrong and he did mean it quite literally, but I personally just don't find that realistic. I think what ke'la said is the most likely, that Vhalen outlined the entire Void story arc as "THE" story for EQ2 when the game was in early development, and that is what has been followed, and will continue to be followed. Yes, he most definitley also wrote "the details" for each expansion, and the next expansions "details" won't be his writing, but that the overall story arc that he wrote is still being followed in Sentinel's Fate and beyond.</p><p>Concerning all of the unanswered questions in this thread...I am willing to be that they are already answered in the "Norrathian Bible" that we know Vhalen kept...when they will be revealed to us, if ever, is the real question I suppose. I'd be willing to bet that all these questions people are asking in this thread, and all the mourning over underutilized characters/settings/pieces/etc, could be answered and put to rest in one fell post, but there's a reason that hasn't been done. They must have plans for all of it. Most of it will probably be resolved, one way or another, and people probably still won't be happy.</p><p>But when you think about it, would we really enjoy the lore as much if we had all the answers? I know that peronally, probably a lot of what keeps Norrath interesting for me is that there are all these unanswered questions about the past, and so many things have yet to be revealed about characters and places that we interact with with some regularity. I mean, in games like this that are intended to have such long life-cycles just to keep Norrath interesting some questions can NEVER be answered, some mysteries can not be solved, and it's all for the greater good, as it were. We may get closer to the answer we all seek, but if we ever were to get all those answers, I'm not sure how long we would stick around.</p>

ke'la
08-02-2009, 09:32 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>He told me that he completely developed TSO's storyline. Everything from here on is up to the new guys now.</p></blockquote><p>I didn't say anything about the storyline for TSO. I was talking about the over all story arc for the game in total. I seriously doupt V'halen had the storyline for TSO written on launch day nearly five years ago, I do believe he had a skellinton in place at that time of kinda sorta where he wanted to go, but the details where at best sketchy. It wasn't until he started working specifically on the TSO lore that I believe he started fleshing everything out, and I also don't believe he wrote every single detail of the TSO lore, or even every detail of the void storyline(IMO the ethernaughts stuff looks alot more like Doomcookie's work), but then again Russel T. Davis didn't write every single episode of the new Doctor Who Series, but he was the guy who wrote the over all storyline for each of the 4 seasons he was incharge of. I think that was more the role V'halen had.</p>

Zin`Car
08-03-2009, 12:19 PM
<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Warning, rant and spoilers ahead.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" /></p><p>So...each expansion has given us generally one epic questline that involves either grouping and or raiding. This has been bothering me for quite some time and it may very well be a stylistic choice but as of late most of these storylines seem either anticlimatic in presentation, or simply tend to show off how incompetent your player character apparently is, and how unimportant "non-spotlight" (I'm looking at you Mayong) characters are. I've always liked the everquest series for its lore, but the amount we see is not as it should be!</p><p>1. Deception: The first "epic" storyline. Its actually done rather well compared to most of the others as far as I can tell. There is decent build up of the story, it makes sense to the established lore. There is also a decent/tolerable amount of interaction/conversation with your antagonist although not much is said of his motives.</p><p>2. Peacock/Ring of fate: Another decent one, the ring of fate storyline was quite interesting and felt very much like the epic storyline it was meant to be, and meshed well with the overall theme/feeling of the expansion. It revealed Anashti Sul among other things.</p><p>3. Claymore: This one was also rather good at first, although seemed to begin the futility trend. The storyline of the quest always felt as though it was going to "go places" especially due to early allusions to Kerafyrm's possible involvement in the lore. It eventually just ends with the item you were searching for being right in front of your nose all along and your mission overall is a failure.</p><p>4. Swords of Destiny: This one was rather interesting in parts, but overall felt very underwhelming. It didnt help that the entire second act was a massive time-sink. It plays out in a rather mundane way as it is mostly like claymore just a search for x legendary item. In the end you defeat Mayong and return the weapon to Lucan.</p><p>5. Fate of Norrath: This should have been the big one, and there was every opportunity to make it so. You are sent after Venril, Selrach, the Leviathan, and Trakanon himself. But wait? This quest is honestly even more bland than Swords of Destiny! It amounts to little more than a sprinkling of lore here and there from Fiddy Bobick followed by more killing.</p><p>You are given utterly no lore or information as to each of the individuals you presumably "perma-kill". There is no information as to Venril's raising of his descendants, or how he left Karnor's castle and retook Sebilis. There is nothing about Selrach's ascension from prince to Overking, and only slight and vague hints at what the Di'zok have been up to.</p><p>And Trakanon, supposedly one of the more powerful dragons complete with the power of foresight...and touted in many sources as one of the wisest beings on Norrath is summarily taken down with literally no build up at all. He says a few things when you face him but little else.</p><p>Heck, you are even given access to Trakanon's lair after killing ALL the other dragons (who also get no lore/flavor by the way) by a sarnak JANITOR.</p><p>This is the dragon who Queen Elizerain of the Elddar trusted with Eylee's notes about the void invasion. This is the dragon who took it upon himself to spark a war that set the Iksar race back for hundreds of years when they were at the height of power and ready to conquer/enslave Norrath like their Shissar masters.</p><p>There is no buildup and little or no information about them, especially in the case of Selrach and Trakanon. Trakanon suddenly went from a decaying husk to a healthy blue dragon as he was described to be before his battle with the Iksar. He also is suddenly made leader of the Ring of Scale, which he was a founding member of. There is however no explanation as to how/why he was made leader, no explanation of Khalen Dar or what happened to Phara Dar either.</p><p>For all we know Phara Dar went nuts and got locked up, Khalen Dar is their child(not too far fetched really, if we go with the hostile takeover idea it could have been a show of dominance, combined with the two being prospective mates before the war with the Iksar), and Trakanon might well have been trying to stop the void invasion/ages end just as we are and instead of any explanation of anything we are lead around on a string by the void posessed Fiddy Bobick and just kill the entire Ring of Scale as though they were all "No longer relevant to the lore".</p><p>Then we run into Mayong once again, who obviously wont stay dead and is clearly some writer's pet character. Not only is he "alive" and well, but our previous success in taking Soulfire is revealed to have been "just as he planned". I was very disappointed in this one.</p><p>6. Shadow Odyssey: This one honestly felt even more bland. Not only did you go running about left and right but you had to clear most of the new instances, and one of the harder ones. I did like revisiting Obelisk of Lost Souls and meeting the Ethernauts but that alone would not save it.</p><p>In the end players defeat Varsoon and the Ethernauts disappear with Anashti. On the raiding end of things though you destroy Anashti's physical presence in the void, allowing her to return to Norrath and reclaim a place amongst the other deities. In the end your exploits end up futile as Theer is apparently returning anyways and everything we and the ethernauts did was more or less for naught.</p><p>So in summation, I'm hoping for some good lore and NPC interactions in the coming expansion(s), and hopefully more closure on past events and the fates/motives of characters that are typically written off as just bosses, despite clearly having their own story (quests from the entire Ring of Scale in eqlive with enough faction for example that sometimes told you more about them). Oh and less incompetant player characters please and more bosses with voicework!</p></blockquote><p>i feel every bit of your pain as i love the lore of Norrath.  Problem is, so very few of the people that raid (which this content is actually geared towards) don't give two $#!7s about game lore, preferring just to blast through from one encounter to the next so as to just get it done and move on.  You know why the first one was the best?  because SOE knew the people playing would care about storyline.</p><p>It's just that simple.</p>

Barx
08-03-2009, 01:43 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>i feel every bit of your pain as i love the lore of Norrath.  Problem <strong>is, so very few of the people that raid ... don't give two $#!7s about game lore</strong>, preferring just to blast through from one encounter to the next so as to just get it done and move on.  You know why the first one was the best?  because SOE knew the people playing would care about storyline.</p><p>It's just that simple.</p></blockquote><p>I think you mean the opposite there, unless are are saying that most raiders care about the story <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But some do. I raid, and I care. (That sounds like a bad commercial or PSA tag-line...). I think it's probably a slightly shifted bell curve. At the far left you have a medium population of raiders that couldn't give a crap. Coming right you get to the maxium which is in the "Story is nice on the side" kind of camp. Then you drop down and hit the smaller population of "I raid, but I also like Lore at times." And then you get to the very far right where you have a few folks that raid but really get into the lore. If that was a scale from 0 to 1 (left to right), I'd probably be a 0.9.</p><p>But I think the Lore for the T5 main raid line was also a lot more developed because you are talking a lot longer development time now as well. EQ2 <em>started</em> development around Kunark in EQ1, and the actual Darathar storyline was probably figured out relatively early. (After all, it influenced everything from your first arival in EQ2 on the boat to the Isle of Refuge on up to the max level at the time).</p>

Aera
08-03-2009, 03:16 PM
<p>The raider hate will never end; it's all their fault for everything that goes wrong!  Anyway, even if you're in a group or raid with people who seem like they don't care, try making a comment about something important to the lore next time you're in an instance and you might be surprised at your other group members taking an interest.</p>

ke'la
08-03-2009, 03:45 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The raider hate will never end; it's all their fault for everything that goes wrong!  Anyway, even if you're in a group or raid with people who seem like they don't care, try making a comment about something important to the lore next time you're in an instance and you might be surprised at your other group members taking an interest.</p></blockquote><p>I think your right in alot of cases, the reason I think people think others don't care about the lore is because the person who does is afraid to bring it up. Yes, if a group is doing a speed run though a dungon or whatever, they likly don't care much about what is going on in there, however if it is a normal run durring a break bring up something you know about that zone, maybe you can start a whole conversation about it.</p>

Methrill.Rundran
09-01-2009, 07:42 PM
<p>Well, I mentioned I liked the Claymore Questline and in fact I started to write a novel adaptation of it. In case anybody is interested, the first chapter is available here <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/19332301/Claymore-Book">http://www.scribd.com/doc/19332301/Claymore-Book</a> . I'll leave it there for a week I guess, and then take it down. Feel free to take a look.</p><p>p.s. I'm from the UK, so apologies for the odd spellings.</p>

Vanisher123
09-03-2009, 02:04 AM
<p>Why is it we as adventurers suck? It was brought up about the "epic" story lines, but even in the small solo or heroic quests, no matter what we seem to do we make most stuff worse, help the bad guy and then have to clear our name (or fight for our lives), or we're just getting pie for someone...</p><p>Can't we just get a true success soon?</p>

Morghus
09-03-2009, 02:46 AM
<p><cite>Vanisher123 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why is it we as adventurers suck? It was brought up about the "epic" story lines, but even in the small solo or heroic quests, no matter what we seem to do we make most stuff worse, help the bad guy and then have to clear our name (or fight for our lives), or we're just getting pie for someone...</p><p>Can't we just get a true success soon?</p></blockquote><p>Yea, the Darkmail Gauntlets heritage comes to mind as far as player failure goes in heroic quests. Also I like the new lore tid-bits coming in and the way they are being introduced but my original gripes are still ever present, as this new lore addresses only the next expansion and does nothing to fix or explain what has already transpired. I mean we <strong>still</strong> don't know anything really about how Trakanon took control of the Ring of Scale or how he cured his rotting body and became as healthy as he was before the Iksar war...that among other things I already brought up in this thread.</p>

Methrill.Rundran
04-09-2010, 10:10 AM
<p>Sorry if this is off-topic (especially since it also involves a huge image), but I created this graph of the Claymore questline in graphviz.</p><p>With regard to "edges", red arrows represent fights, green arrows represent conversations.</p><p>With regard to nodes, Black circles represent zones, green boxes represent friendly characters, and red triangles represent named enemies that need to be killed. Filled red triangles are epic enemies that need to be slain. "Paler" nodes and edges represent activities that occur during the Deathtoll access quests.</p><p><img src="http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af244/in6087/Everquest%202/CQGraph_6000.jpg" width="1024" height="631" /></p><p>The full image (6000x3698 resolution) can be downloaded from <a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?mom4md2mwzz"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: #800080;">http://www.mediafire.com/?mom4md2mwzz</span></span></a></p><p>Enjoy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>