Summoner & Rogue archetypes being more in line with each other?

[Firecracker]

<p><span><span><span ><p>I am not sure why this has be the trend with these four classes. I am not interested in having to debuff mobs just to get into raids. I want we had before and that was to dps to get into raids...............</p><p>I am not asking to be parsing with the assassin & wizard but it would be nice once in a while to be number one. What is wrong that? why can't dps be shared among the dps classes anyways?</p><p>I do know from my past experience that rogues can still out parse summoners so this 'debuff' that summoners are suppose to be getting will still make raids pick rogues over summoners unless are dps is also improved on.</p><p>I am no expert, but from my past experience in raiding with rogues classes we used to be even, but now on average I place 5th to 8^th of the top ten with wizards and assassins placing 1st or 2nd, along with enchanters, rogues, MT out parsing me 90% of the time.</p><p>I want what summoners had when EoF was the latest expac and that was around 3rd on the parse and when I used Lifeburn would place me 90% of time in first.</p><p>I started this thread in hopes to get some feedback on where you as summoners feel about this change coming to the summoners classes.</p></span></span></span></p>

[Freliant]

<p>Gonna be tough to get feedback on changes that are not on test yet... or beta tested for that matter.</p><p>Until we get to expirience the changes first hand, there is not much we can do aside from speculate.</p><p>As for your comment on doing T1 dps once in a while... I am willing to go with that, as long as its specialized cases. There are classes that the only thing they bring to a raid is DPS, and if any other class goes in and does the job as good as them AND provides some utility (like the enchanter types), then it is only natural that some people get pieved.</p><p>With the proposed changes, they are splitting brigand utility and handing a bit of it to the summoners. Honestly, it was a change that was asked a long time ago. Not specifically to nerf the brigands, but to put magical debuffs in the hands of the magical users, and physical debuffs in the hands of melee types.</p><p>It will take some time for the brigands to adjust to this new reality, but I still believe it was made with the overall health of the game in mind.</p>

[Firecracker]

<p>True on it not being on test but this seems to the trend and if that is only reason be getting into raids is because of the debuff then I want more then just that.</p><p>The way it is now, raid set up only wants certain classes. DPS classes should always be the main reason why raids should want DPS classes not always what we can bring buff & debuff wise. It helps but it shouldn't be the main factor either.</p>

[Germs666]

<p><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There are classes that the only thing they bring to a raid is DPS, and if any other class goes in and does the job as good as them AND provides some utility (like the enchanter types), then it is only natural that some people get pieved.</p></blockquote><p>This is exactly where necros are now! The only thing we offer groups is mage DPS and some chanters can do it better while offering loads more utility.</p><p>I am happy we are getting some utility but if we don't get a DPS boost, chanters will probably still be a better pick for the mage slot. A damage increase would be needed to compensate for chanters superior utility.</p><p> Also, if we are to be on par with rogues then we shouldnt need a healer/troub/chanter to DPS like rogues can with only a dirge.</p>

[Firecracker]

<p>I really feel that this thread I am posting here relates to what I started but perhaps better said then I did. So please read or better yet a mod can combined them for really it's pretty much the same thing I said and asked for but I posted in the mages thread because the changes coming are happening the Summoners classes not just Necros.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=454293">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=454293</a></p>

[Cometar]

<p>Hey Cinn,</p><p>Speaking as another summoner (though a conj), I totally understand your frustration. However, in trying to look objectively as a means of getting classes more in line, I can completely see where SOE is coming from with the upcoming changes. It's easy to compare Bards and Enchanters together because of the sheer amount of utility and buffs they bring to a group and raid. It's easy to compare Sorcerers and Predaters together because of the sheer dps that they bring in those situations. With the upcoming change, there will be a common sort of role between the Summoner and Rogue classes with the debuffage. Basically, if I keep the comparison of the other archetypes in my head, I can easily rationalize the changes coming up. I may not like it per se (which I don't), but I can see how it is a step closer to where we want to be.</p><p><strong><span><span><span>-"I want what summoners had when EoF was the latest expac and that was around 3rd on the parse and when I used Lifeburn would place me 90% of time in first."</span></span></span></strong></p><p>I also totally get where you're coming from with this statement. I've played my Conjy as my main since launch and have seen us rise and fall similarly as you have. I remember when I could just pop planeshift and just about top the parse. BUT, I don't think that was right. Neither of our classes should be able to be one of the top dogs on the parse just by using one ability. I have very little experience playing a necro, so forgive me if this doesn't apply, but it was my understanding that Summoners are mainly DoT classes. Keeping that focus in mind, it's always going to take time and stacking the right abilities with eachother for our classes to really shine.</p><p>Not to mention, saddly, the fact the during the KoS and EoF expansions we were overpowered. Summoners were always intended to be teir 2 dps. We should be coming after the Sorcerers and Predaters on the parses. As far as the rogue's go, we <em>may need</em> to be just a little more in line with there dps output <em>maybe</em>. I'm very hesitant with that statement.</p><p>Sony has stated that they're happy with our dps output, so perhaps I've resigned myself to that position as well, but still I don't think much needs to be done as far as our dps is concerned. I think after they get some of the aa bugs actually fixed and if they ever decide to look into at least partial shared stats with our pets, then any dps concerns should go away from summoners completely.</p><p>I would also like to add, while I see where the upcoming changes are a start to getting our classes straightened out, I don't think it's enough. I still believe that debuffs alone aren't going to get us "desired" again. I think the way to go along with the debuffs, might be <em>at least</em> one new player castable buff or some type of buff attached to our pet the can affect group/raid. There have been many ideas posted on that topic throughout the boards, though, so I don't want to seem overly repetative.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>It looks like you guys saying a debuff isnt enough have no idea what that brings to the table. The magic debuff will definately be enough to make guilds want at least 1 summoner in raid, for the same reason they are using brigs now. Each class has it's niche and debuffing is one of those, if you want pure dps then you rolled the wrong class. Summoners should never top a parse easily, perhaps on fluke pulls but the top of the parse should belong to the preds and sorces on average.</p><p>Having decent dps and a massive debuff will get you in raids. Dont be greedy and ask for debuffs and top dps along with it, because that would simply put sorces and preds in the position summoners are in now. Thus not solving a problem but just moving it to another class. They appear to be taking steps to make every class viable and wanted for raids, each with their own specialty. So if debuffing becomes a summoner specialty take that and be the best you can at it, and leave the raw dps specialty to the preds and sorces.</p>

[Jasuo]

<p><cite>Korrupt@Najena wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Having decent dps and a massive debuff will get you in raids. Dont be greedy and ask for debuffs and top dps along with it, because that would simply put sorces and preds in the position summoners are in now. Thus not solving a problem but just moving it to another class. They appear to be taking steps to make every class viable and wanted for raids, each with their own specialty. So if debuffing becomes a summoner specialty take that and be the best you can at it, and leave the raw dps specialty to the preds and sorces.</p></blockquote><p>Spoken like a true sorcerer lol</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>well jeez, what I'm hearing is "now that you've given us half a brigands job, we want all of the sorcerors job also. And in time we'll want our tank pet to take the guardians job while giving us the shamans job to keep that pet alive." People asking to do everything and ignorant devs trying to appease them is the biggest issue this game has. I mean if they give summoners all these nice changes we can just do away with every other class completely and have 24 summoner raids.</p>

[Jasuo]

<p>We had the debuffs before they were stripped from the class in t5, thanks.  We're not demanding a huge dps increase, we're wanting our pets fixed and put in line with where they should be.  How's about I take 28-33% of your dps spells and make all your crits, base damage, haste and whatever else you have that boosts dps and make it not affect that percentage...man that's a bummer.  Then we'll take acid and armageddon (chosen because they're dots) and make it a swarm pet that can be killed by ae and also not affected by any dps increasing gear...lame again isn't it.  When I rolled the toon back in early 05 and it told me your pet will never get the proper upgrades and we're going to release AA's that don't affect your class 100% of the time I would've saved myself the trouble and rolled wizard like every other cookie cutter newb wanting the "big boom".  Instead I rolled the necro expecting to do near comparable damage with a different flavor.</p><p>Are high end summoners putting up nice numbers now? Yes, when geared out and buffed comparable to a wizard they are doing decent damage but it is no where near that of an equally geared/buffed and well played sorcerer.  The only ones that come here to cry and keep us from getting the adjustments are the ones who probably can't play at the top of their game and are getting bested by that nonslacking summoner.</p>

[Rocc]

<p>Mages should always do more dps than scouts. Garbage bags versus leather.</p><p>Summoner pets should be able to survive a fight.</p><p>Wizard and warlock should out dps every class in game.</p><p>No classes should out dps mages.</p><p>DPS chart should look like this...</p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Mage</span> - <span style="color: #ff0000;">High DPS </span><span style="color: #c0c0c0;">- </span><span style="color: #339966;">Easy prey</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Scout</span> - <span style="color: #ffff00;">Medium DPS</span> - <span style="color: #ffff00;">Survivability</span></p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">Fighter</span> - <span style="color: #339966;">Low DPS</span> - <span style="color: #ff0000;">Uber Survivability</span></p><p>Clerics should be at the bottom of the DPS loop but maintain some degree of soloability.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>Actually the nonslacking summoners are only 1-2k behind those top sorces. I would say the summoners that are crying so much about their dps either a) want to be on top which summoners arent supposed to be or b) need to get better at their class and not ask soe to make it easymode for them to handle it.</p><p>I agree there is alot wrong with summoners and they need a ton of fixes, but when I hear a summoner crying because he's not topping the parses it's irritating. If you roll a T2 dps class expect just that, dont expect to have your pets and get utility and then be able to put out wizard dps on top of it.</p>

[Firecracker]

<p><cite>Cometar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> 'Read above'</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="font-size: xx-small;"></span></span><p><span><span style="font-size: x-small;">The thing is even with this debuff this isn't going to help dps wise, I know there is going to be fix to dumb fire pets</span><span style="font-size: xx-small;"> (not sure if this going to effect 'Undead Tide' though which is a bunch of dumb fire pets.) </span><span style="font-size: x-small;">Where I stand on dps is there is nothing wrong with once in a while to be the first on the parse with sorcers/pred being first most of time. As it stands now there is other classes that even after them before summoners who are making the parse when before you hardly ever seen them before Rok. So there is something borked right now with the dps classes. I don't want to ever seen classes get nerfed either. With KoS & EoF I didn't feel that we were overpowered either for raids were not just taking summoner classes over dps classes because of it either. Of the raids I been in there was one of each summoner in it and not usually no more then that either so how is having one of each over powered then? <p>I feel the list should go</p><p>sorcers/pred.</p><p>summoners/rogues/brawlers* with these classes to make 1st on parse once in a while depending on the encounter and abilities as well.</p><p>enchanters/bards/plate fighters/possibly a fury</p><p>.....but this list isn't how the parse is showing normally up either.</p><p><span><span style="font-size: x-small;"></span></span></p></span></span></p></p>

[Encantador]

<p>I don't suppose anyone has a copy of the original post giving the DPS order for classes as suggested by developers?</p><p>From memory it ran</p><p>T1: sorceror/predator</p><p>T2: (middle)summoner with mage or scout pet</p><p>(lower)rogues</p><p>T3: (top)enchanters/bards</p><p>(middle) brawlers</p><p>(lower)summoners with tank pet.</p><p>T4: crusaders</p><p>druids/warriors</p><p>T5:clerics/shamen</p><p>I remember very well that enchanters were ranked above summoners with tank pets. At the time this was posted enchanters, and in particular coercers, were more like bottom of T4. Any healer or tank that wanted to spec for damage could out DPS us.</p><p>From a raid angle I don't find the top half of this ranking too far off (assuming the Mythical pet is <strong>not</strong> classed as a tank pet of course).</p><p>Any summoner believing that the OP days of EoF is where they should be, is living a dream. Summoners are the all rounders of the mages. They are not just DPS. They are part DPS, part buffer, part debuffer, part healer, and even part tank. Now many will say (and I have every sympathy with them) that summoner's buffs, debuffs, etc. are weak, but to claim summoner DPS is too low is focussing on one narrow aspect and way too limiting.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>Summoners and rogues are already coming in right behind sorces and preds. The anomoly of the dps chart is chanters putting out way more dps than you'd expect from a utility class. The proc nerf was a step to address that, unfortunately it was an across the board nerf that brought down all mages. Make no mistake about this debuff the summoners are getting. It's going to be big, and it's going to make every raid want at least 1 summoner(possibly 2 if they split it up elemental/nox) in raid.</p>

[Mirander_1]

<p>I don't know if the old dps tiers are still official.  Your list is pretty close, but I believe they were the following:</p><p>T1</p><p>Sorcs</p><p>Preds</p><p>T2</p><p>Summoners (w/ dps pet)</p><p>Rogues</p><p>T3</p><p>Enchanters</p><p>Bards</p><p>Summoners (w/ tank pet)</p><p>Brawlers</p><p>T4</p><p>Zerkers/Shadowknights</p><p>Guards/Pallys </p><p>T5</p><p>Druids</p><p>Shammys</p><p>Clerics</p><p>Druids may have been low T4, rather than high T5, but I'm fairly sure that was the order.</p>

[Encantador]

<p><cite>Korrupt@Najena wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Summoners and rogues are already coming in right behind sorces and preds. The anomoly of the dps chart is chanters putting out way more dps than you'd expect<strong> from a utility class</strong>. The proc nerf was a step to address that, unfortunately it was an across the board nerf that brought down all mages. Make no mistake about this debuff the summoners are getting. It's going to be big, and it's going to make every raid want at least 1 summoner(possibly 2 if they split it up elemental/nox) in raid.</p></blockquote><p>Hmmm I think it is time people stopped calling enchanters a utility class. They are not. They are specialists. They are DPS and fight management (with buffs to support these roles). The utility class is SUMMONER !</p><p>Summoners and rogues are right behind sorcs and preds for DPS, so where's the beef ?</p>

[Karaanan]

<p>The beef is that for a supposed t2 dps class we have no utility of note when compared to our rogue counterparts (and some annoying issues with pet mechanics but that is a wider issue and not really related to this Rogue/Summoner balancing SOE seem intent on doing!), that is all.</p>

[Fendaria]

<p><cite>Encantador wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hmmm I think it is time people stopped calling enchanters a utility class. They are not. They are specialists. They are DPS and fight management (with buffs to support these roles). The utility class is SUMMONER !</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for making me smile and giving me a good laugh today <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Fendaria</p>

[Nero]

<p>An idea of Summoners' debuff</p><p>Bad Luck: When a summoner casts this spell to a mob, the mob will fail to use combat arts/spells/melee auto attack in 60%.</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

<p>Changes I think would help Summoners in their role, this debuff idea is just terrible..</p><p>Nothing is really being removed from the bards and chanters, they're just being changed so more than 1 of each class down't bring any extra buffs or utility. DPS loss of PotM and CoB not being 100% as it is with 2/3 of each Bard is made up by the fact that all all raid has the benefit of a troub and dirge.Bard Changes - Add an immunity to CoB and PotM of 30 seconds. All buffs made Raid wide, or raid wide castable.Removal of CoB and PotM raid wide from Mythicals, instead a bonus of 2 Conc slots.</p><p>Dirge Changes - Battle Cry is changed to be castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with UT cannot also have BC cast on a member of that group.Single Target Hate buff is changed to a raid wide buff that increase fighter hate similar to the Troub dehate  buff.</p><p>Troub Changes - UT is changed to be castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with BC cannot also have UT cast on a member of that group.</p><p>Enchanter Changes.All buffs made raid wide.</p><p>Illusionist Changes.TC and IA are changed to castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with CH or TC cannot also have TC cast on another member of that group.</p><p>Coercer Changes.Coercer Healing is changed to castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with TC or CH cannot also have CH cast on a member of that group.</p><p>Summoner Changes.Dumbfires are made immune to AOE's unless directly targetted and cast times reduced.Main pets are immune to AOE's unless directly targettedDumfires have small debuffs attached to Double attack/Crit for.Single Heart/Shard spell is changed to - a raid wide buff that has a chance to summon a heart/shard on any hostile action.Summoner Pets use the mages stats with the following mulipliers - Mage Pet1 Spell crit = 1 Spell crit1 Int = 1 IntResists all 1 = 1Scout Pet1 Melee Crit = 2 Melee Crit1 Str = 2 StrResists all 1 = 1Tank Pet1 Melee Crit = 1 Melee Crit1 Sta = 2 StaResists all 1 = 1</p><p>Raid wide Heart/Shard spell is changed to - Conguror - Earthen Might - Characters are surrounded by a wall of rock, reducing the next hostile actions damage against them by 75%. Raid wide, 15 seconds. 3 min recast, immunity of 3 mins.Necromancer - Disease Carrier - All Damage over time spells have a 10% chance to spread to other hostile NPC's within a 5m Range of the target effected with the DoT. Raid wide, Duration 15 seconds, 5 min recast, immunity of 5 mins.</p><p>Conguror.Shards changed from a one time clicky of a power feed to - +400 Base Spell/Heal amount and 500 power every 10 seconds, lasts 5 minutes.Healing AA pet, is changed to a buff that is cast on any pet.</p><p>Necromancer.Hearts changed from a one time clicky of a power feed to - +400 Base CA/Taunt amount and 500 power every 10 seconds, lasts 5 minutes.Debuff AA pet is changed to a buff that is cast on any pet.Summon Corpse Given as a lower level class spell.Self res given as a class spell, 10 min recast rezzes to 10%hp/power.Undead Horde recast is reduced to 5 mins (15 mins now???).</p><div></div>

[Nero]

<p>Add a group buff to summoner depending on pet.</p><p>fighter pet: +20% hate gain of fighter. Pet absorbs 10% of hate of the group.</p><p>scout pet: +10% Accuracy. Adds proc of melee damage to group members. -10% hate gain of non-fighter.</p><p>mage pet: Adds proc of manatap to group members. Spells of pet have debuff magical resists.</p><p>healer pet: 5% stoneskin. Adds proc of ward to priests.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Changes I think would help Summoners in their role, this debuff idea is just terrible..</p><p>Nothing is really being removed from the bards and chanters, they're just being changed so more than 1 of each class down't bring any extra buffs or utility. DPS loss of PotM and CoB not being 100% as it is with 2/3 of each Bard is made up by the fact that all all raid has the benefit of a troub and dirge.Bard Changes - Add an immunity to CoB and PotM of 30 seconds. All buffs made Raid wide, or raid wide castable.Removal of CoB and PotM raid wide from Mythicals, instead a bonus of 2 Conc slots.</p><p>Dirge Changes - Battle Cry is changed to be castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with UT cannot also have BC cast on a member of that group.Single Target Hate buff is changed to a raid wide buff that increase fighter hate similar to the Troub dehate  buff.</p><p>Troub Changes - UT is changed to be castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with BC cannot also have UT cast on a member of that group.</p><p>Enchanter Changes.All buffs made raid wide.</p><p>Illusionist Changes.TC and IA are changed to castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with CH or TC cannot also have TC cast on another member of that group.</p><p>Coercer Changes.Coercer Healing is changed to castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with TC or CH cannot also have CH cast on a member of that group.</p><p>Summoner Changes.Dumbfires are made immune to AOE's unless directly targetted and cast times reduced.Main pets are immune to AOE's unless directly targettedDumfires have small debuffs attached to Double attack/Crit for.Single Heart/Shard spell is changed to - a raid wide buff that has a chance to summon a heart/shard on any hostile action.Summoner Pets use the mages stats with the following mulipliers - Mage Pet1 Spell crit = 1 Spell crit1 Int = 1 IntResists all 1 = 1Scout Pet1 Melee Crit = 2 Melee Crit1 Str = 2 StrResists all 1 = 1Tank Pet1 Melee Crit = 1 Melee Crit1 Sta = 2 StaResists all 1 = 1</p><p>Raid wide Heart/Shard spell is changed to - Conguror - Earthen Might - Characters are surrounded by a wall of rock, reducing the next hostile actions damage against them by 75%. Raid wide, 15 seconds. 3 min recast, immunity of 3 mins.Necromancer - Disease Carrier - All Damage over time spells have a 10% chance to spread to other hostile NPC's within a 5m Range of the target effected with the DoT. Raid wide, Duration 15 seconds, 5 min recast, immunity of 5 mins.</p><p>Conguror.Shards changed from a one time clicky of a power feed to - +400 Base Spell/Heal amount and 500 power every 10 seconds, lasts 5 minutes.Healing AA pet, is changed to a buff that is cast on any pet.</p><p>Necromancer.Hearts changed from a one time clicky of a power feed to - +400 Base CA/Taunt amount and 500 power every 10 seconds, lasts 5 minutes.Debuff AA pet is changed to a buff that is cast on any pet.Summon Corpse Given as a lower level class spell.Self res given as a class spell, 10 min recast rezzes to 10%hp/power.Undead Horde recast is reduced to 5 mins (15 mins now???).</p><div></div></blockquote><p>these ideas are for the most part really bad man.       you want the raid to loose buffs?    makes no sense,  the point of raid wide buffs is to give all the benefit of 4 chanters and 4 bards with just 2 of each...</p>

[Soul_Dreamer]

Explain how anyone is loosing buffs???

[Mordith]

<p>With so much talk over raiding, I am still concerned over PUG's when it comes to the summoner changes.  Will the proposed changes make summoners more "welcome" in groups? When you see a request in chat "Group LF dps" or "Group LF utility" which will summoners respond to?</p><p>As it stands now, assuming the group does not know you, a summoner is added to a group as a filler spot when nothing else is available.  Will the debuff change that?</p>

[Jasuo]

<p>It's not too terribly hard to get a group as a summoner, just make sure you're parsing well enough and get your name out there with random groups.</p>

[Asif]

<p>Bard Changes - Add an immunity to CoB and PotM of 30 seconds. All buffs made Raid wide, or raid wide castable.Removal of CoB and PotM raid wide from Mythicals, instead a bonus of 2 Conc slots</p><p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>Hmm dont like this at all leave our myth's alone.!!!</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Explain how anyone is loosing buffs???</blockquote><p>this----->  <cite>Soul_Dreamer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>UT is changed to be castable on 2 people cross raid, 1 per group, a group that contains a character with BC cannot also have UT cast on a member of that group.???</blockquote><p>this----> <cite>Asif wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Bard Changes - Add an immunity to CoB and PotM of 30 seconds. All buffs made Raid wide, or raid wide castable.Removal of CoB and PotM raid wide from Mythicals, instead a bonus of 2 Conc slots</p><p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p>Hmm dont like this at all leave our myth's alone.!!!</p></blockquote><p>and a few other things.. i think devs have it right so far, the only thing im worried about is what they do with group buffs for other classes..</p><p> for raid wide buffs to work they need to be universal so the raid becomes one solid unit of 24 players instead of 4 groups of 6 players.. if they go half azz it will fail like fighter raid wides did their first time around.</p>

[Morghus]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and a few other things.. i think devs have it right so far, the only thing im worried about is what they do with group buffs for other classes..</p><p> for raid wide buffs to work they need to be universal so the raid becomes one solid unit of 24 players instead of 4 groups of 6 players.. if they go half azz it will fail like fighter raid wides did their first time around.</p></blockquote><p>Unless certain aspects of raid mobs/mechanics and buffing mechanis are changed I dont exactly see this getting summoners into raids. The way raids are right now, certain fights absolutely must have enchanters preferably in each group.</p><p>On very power intense fights like Mynzak or Zarrakon, having an enchanter in a group is not only essential, but also not guaranteed to provide enough power for the group at all times depending on luck/circumstances making multiple highly valued. In light of that I do not see too many enchanters getting removed.</p><p>Healers also will not likely be losing spots, especially with fights that require/ are much easier with 8 healers or fights where each group is segregated by a gimmick like on Zarrakon.</p><p>As far as bards, I see a similar issue unless things are changed. A raid will generally want 2 of each bard to keep a Precision of the maestro/Cacophony chain going. Also, even if the buffs are raid wide and immuties applied to CoB/PotM...just one of them getting killed would cause major issues if there were not 2 of each.</p><p>As to the 3 way split in the debuffing scene, I only see it hurting summoners AND sorcerors. It is fairly vital that an enemy be fully debuffed in raids, especially for spellcasters as the resist rate on a sparsely debuffed raid mob is horrible to the point that master spells and 500+ disruption are simply not enough to consistently dps.</p><p>Also, having time compression and upbeat tempo raid castable on 4 people will not diminish the want for those two classes, as having 1 of each on 8 people is better than 1 of each on 4.</p><p>Due to the planned 3 way split, a raid force with a wizard and a warlock will require both a necromancer and a conjuror to properly debuff those resistances if the two summoners are indeed given large mitigation debuffs comparable to dispatch.</p><p>On fights where the enemy is consistently stripping themselves of debuffs, they require a large amount of consistent dps combined with quick re-application of debuffs, and the character in question not dying. Thus, having to only worry about debuffing mitigation would benefit a raid force that decides to only fill up with scout dps and elect to simply take only enchanters and no summoners or sorcerors.</p><p>As such, this change may instead hurt mages while attempting to help summoners. It will probably hurt  mages that are not too established in a guild's raid force. It will also be an issue with setting some guilds back by needing to search for 2 summoners of an acceptable quality that may or may not know the content that the rest of the guild is/was already clearing combined with needing to possibly gear them.</p><p>One can only hope that they will get this change right, but given certain track records I do not see that as likely.</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>I havent heard from soe that the mage debuffs will be split ele/nox between the summoners. While based on what those classes each cast this would be a bad idea in general for the reason you stated. Also which would get the mental debuff for the chanters? Lets hope they make it a all magical dmg debuff and give it to both classes.</p>

[Xarcara]

<p>just to throw this out there they have already announced that they are changing bard and enchanter buffs to raidwide and things like TC would work on one person per group ie the enchanter could cast it on 4 poeple in a raid if they were all in separate groups</p><p>source: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com/2009/06/28/fan-faire-2009-eq2-news-rollup/" target="_blank">http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com...q2-news-rollup/</a></p><p>important part</p><blockquote><p>Some <strong>Enchanter </strong>and <strong>Bard </strong>buffs will become raidwide or applicable to one person in each of the 4 groups. The example given was an illusionist giving Time Compression to one member of all 4 groups. Other buffs could go raidwide. This will be done in such way so that having 4 illusionists will not be a significant advantage over having 1 or 2.</p></blockquote><p style="padding-left: 30px;"> </p><p style="padding-left: 30px;">so apparently i suck at html you get the point <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Germs666]

<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless certain aspects of raid mobs/mechanics and buffing mechanis are changed I dont exactly see this getting summoners into raids. The way raids are right now, certain fights absolutely must have enchanters preferably in each group.</p><p>On very power intense fights like Mynzak or Zarrakon, having an enchanter in a group is not only essential, but also not guaranteed to provide enough power for the group at all times depending on luck/circumstances making multiple highly valued. In light of that I do not see too many enchanters getting removed.</p><p>Healers also will not likely be losing spots, especially with fights that require/ are much easier with 8 healers or fights where each group is segregated by a gimmick like on Zarrakon.</p><p>As far as bards, I see a similar issue unless things are changed. A raid will generally want 2 of each bard to keep a Precision of the maestro/Cacophony chain going. Also, even if the buffs are raid wide and immuties applied to CoB/PotM...just one of them getting killed would cause major issues if there were not 2 of each.</p><p>As to the 3 way split in the debuffing scene, I only see it hurting summoners AND sorcerors. It is fairly vital that an enemy be fully debuffed in raids, especially for spellcasters as the resist rate on a sparsely debuffed raid mob is horrible to the point that master spells and 500+ disruption are simply not enough to consistently dps.</p><p>Also, having time compression and upbeat tempo raid castable on 4 people will not diminish the want for those two classes, as having 1 of each on 8 people is better than 1 of each on 4.</p><p>Due to the planned 3 way split, a raid force with a wizard and a warlock will require both a necromancer and a conjuror to properly debuff those resistances if the two summoners are indeed given large mitigation debuffs comparable to dispatch.</p><p>On fights where the enemy is consistently stripping themselves of debuffs, they require a large amount of consistent dps combined with quick re-application of debuffs, and the character in question not dying. Thus, having to only worry about debuffing mitigation would benefit a raid force that decides to only fill up with scout dps and elect to simply take only enchanters and no summoners or sorcerors.</p><p>As such, this change may instead hurt mages while attempting to help summoners. It will probably hurt  mages that are not too established in a guild's raid force. It will also be an issue with setting some guilds back by needing to search for 2 summoners of an acceptable quality that may or may not know the content that the rest of the guild is/was already clearing combined with needing to possibly gear them.</p><p>One can only hope that they will get this change right, but given certain track records I do not see that as likely.</p></blockquote><p>This is exactly what I was thinking.  People are still going to choose enchanters over summoners because of power regen. We still will not have enough utility to be useful.</p><p>If summoners don't get some sort of power regeneration (hearts/shards don't count) then we will still be sidelined for utility classes.</p><p>Imagine if vampirism was changed to a DD spell that would proc group power (similar to our T2/T3 robe).</p><p>We'd actually get a useful lvl 80 spell, some burst damage and utility all from a simple spell fix.</p><p>No more squishy worthless orb....</p>

[Nulgara]

<p>personally i woudl rather see vampirism changed in teh follwoing way</p><p>get rid of the absolutel garbage dies if person takes dmg crap. that is the absolute dumbest thing i have ever seen on any spell in this game. Vampirism doesnt nearly do enough of anything to warrant such a weakness.</p><p>second change the functionality of the spell to be a group/raidwide buff that functions exactly like lich III, and yes i mean identical to lich 3 minus the illusion. same recast timer, same duration as current vampirism.</p><p>that would make it useful and not total utter crap. devs have already said they dont want to change our dmg capability so making it a dd with a group power proc is very liekly not going to be an acceptable thing for the devs, but making it a 1 minute lich 3 for teh whole raid would add that power regening option that hearts just dont give. a change such as above woudl give us an actual group/raidwide spell that is useful, not overpowered, and woudl help greatly in warranting a spot on a raid force.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p><cite>Morghus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>and a few other things.. i think devs have it right so far, the only thing im worried about is what they do with group buffs for other classes..</p><p> for raid wide buffs to work they need to be universal so the raid becomes one solid unit of 24 players instead of 4 groups of 6 players.. if they go half azz it will fail like fighter raid wides did their first time around.</p></blockquote><p>Unless certain aspects of raid mobs/mechanics and buffing mechanis are changed I dont exactly see this getting summoners into raids. The way raids are right now, certain fights absolutely must have enchanters preferably in each group.</p><p>On very power intense fights like Mynzak or Zarrakon, having an enchanter in a group is not only essential, but also not guaranteed to provide enough power for the group at all times depending on luck/circumstances making multiple highly valued. In light of that I do not see too many enchanters getting removed.</p><p>Healers also will not likely be losing spots, especially with fights that require/ are much easier with 8 healers or fights where each group is segregated by a gimmick like on Zarrakon.</p><p>As far as bards, I see a similar issue unless things are changed. A raid will generally want 2 of each bard to keep a Precision of the maestro/Cacophony chain going. Also, even if the buffs are raid wide and immuties applied to CoB/PotM...just one of them getting killed would cause major issues if there were not 2 of each.</p><p>As to the 3 way split in the debuffing scene, I only see it hurting summoners AND sorcerors. It is fairly vital that an enemy be fully debuffed in raids, especially for spellcasters as the resist rate on a sparsely debuffed raid mob is horrible to the point that master spells and 500+ disruption are simply not enough to consistently dps.</p><p>Also, having time compression and upbeat tempo raid castable on 4 people will not diminish the want for those two classes, as having 1 of each on 8 people is better than 1 of each on 4.</p><p>Due to the planned 3 way split, a raid force with a wizard and a warlock will require both a necromancer and a conjuror to properly debuff those resistances if the two summoners are indeed given large mitigation debuffs comparable to dispatch.</p><p>On fights where the enemy is consistently stripping themselves of debuffs, they require a large amount of consistent dps combined with quick re-application of debuffs, and the character in question not dying. Thus, having to only worry about debuffing mitigation would benefit a raid force that decides to only fill up with scout dps and elect to simply take only enchanters and no summoners or sorcerors.</p><p>As such, this change may instead hurt mages while attempting to help summoners. It will probably hurt  mages that are not too established in a guild's raid force. It will also be an issue with setting some guilds back by needing to search for 2 summoners of an acceptable quality that may or may not know the content that the rest of the guild is/was already clearing combined with needing to possibly gear them.</p><p>One can only hope that they will get this change right, but given certain track records I do not see that as likely.</p></blockquote><p>yes well for this to work ALL chanter and bard abilitys need to become raid wide period.</p><p> indeed if the bard/chantr dies it will hurt the raid but lets be honest...  there has to be some challange to the game, simply don't let your chanter and bard die.    healers can make macros to put death saves on the utillity class, the point is to get away from this frame of mind that makes raid forces do the following:</p><p>  player1=i like what this class does for the group</p><p>player2= lets put one in each group</p><p>player1= geniuzzzzz   omgdz!!!  tht's such a leet strat!</p><p>   seriously that is the problem and that's why the raid needs to become a group of 24 players not 4 groups of 6. it does not have to be some strict requirement to have one of each class but lets at least make so there is little to no benefit to having 3 or 4 of anyone one class.  </p><p>  yes some poeple will loose their spot but many people lost their spot in raid when RoK came out too..  where was the up roar then?   lol  everyone was telling summoners to stop QQing .. </p><p>  as far as the debuff 3 way split crap.. i don't like it one bit.</p><p>  imo necro should take the spot of the second brig, conj should recive offensive debuffs similar to swash(well the offensive debuffs swash has need a boost imo) and brig should stay untouched(no loosing ability at least).</p>

[Illine]

<p><cite>Cinnimon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span><span><p>I am not sure why this has be the trend with these four classes. I am not interested in having to debuff mobs just to get into raids. I want we had before and that was to dps to get into raids...............</p><p>I am not asking to be parsing with the assassin & wizard but it would be nice once in a while to be number one. What is wrong that? why can't dps be shared among the dps classes anyways?</p><p><span style="color: #ff9900;"><strong>I do know from my past experience that rogues can still out parse summoners so this 'debuff' that summoners are suppose to be getting will still make raids pick rogues over summoners unless are dps is also improved on.</strong></span></p><p>I am no expert, but from my past experience in raiding with rogues classes we used to be even, but now on average I place 5th to 8^th of the top ten with wizards and assassins placing 1st or 2nd, along with enchanters, rogues, MT out parsing me 90% of the time.</p><p>I want what summoners had when EoF was the latest expac and that was around 3rd on the parse and when I used Lifeburn would place me 90% of time in first.</p><p>I started this thread in hopes to get some feedback on where you as summoners feel about this change coming to the summoners classes.</p></span></span></span></p></blockquote><p>and that summoners can outparse wizards and rogues. Maybe not necros but conjus can do great damage.</p>

[Xalmat]

<p>It all depends on the fight, buffs, gear, and skill of the summoners and rogues in question. Especially in TSO, more named fights (the only fights that really matter) are summoner friendly than they are rogue friendly.</p>

[Illine]

<p>And I hope the dumbfire pets changes will be for all classes ... not just summoners ^^</p>

[Korrupt]

<p>yeah, all dumbfires for all classes are a joke now. One thing that could be done about the power regen making chanters a necessity for all groups is people an ability to generate some power for themselves. Both sorces have a spell that does this but it is extremely underpowered, barely giving enough power to cast 1 spell. Make them bigger with a longer recast.</p>