The Brawler KOS Achievement tree, a thuroughly underwhelming affar.

[Antas22]

<p>Yes, the topic has been done to death. Us pesky Brawlers just never seem to stop talking about it. And you know what? We never will until something is actually done about it. Our KOS Achievement tree is extremely wanting compared to other fighters, leading, at least in part, to our generally sub-par status (player skill notwithstanding).</p><p>With that in mind, I'd like to, once again, offer thoughts and open discussion about the Brawler tree, in hopes that the devs may actually find their time to listen to and address our concerns. A line-by-line breakdown:</p><p>STR - Fine as is, really.INT - Eagle's Fury needs to be 3% per rank, to be balanced against other fighters given our reduced survivability. Endline is useless. Would be a good place for a permanant Casting Speed / Recovery Speed / Reuse Speed buff such as other Fighters get in their endlines.AGI - As I alluded to in INT, Ambidexterity, though currently useful (owing mostly to how mediocre the Brawler tree currently is), asks us to spend 8 points to get just a part of what other Fighters get for 2 points as endlines to already extremely useful AA lines (this is really an inexplicable pattern throughout Brawler acheivements, spend more, get less). We need an endline like theirs, and this line needs to see considerable revamp. DPS mod, a new group buff (a la Crusaders' Battle Leadership), or even a boost to CA damage are possibilities to replace Ambidexterity. Altruism and Monkey Dodge are fine as-is.STA - Where to begin? This line is just complete and utter crap, and has been for a long time. There really isn't a single redeeming trait here. One possibility is to make Mantis Bolt's proc do flat damage = caster's STR, rather than its current value, which would be funny if it weren't so utterly pathetic. This would allow it not only to hold some value, but also to scale, to some degree at least, with the Brawler's gear. Mantis Leap holds no value outside of PVP.WIS - We've been asking for it for ages, you teased us with a bastardized amount of it for a while, then pulled even that away. Give us 40% AOE Auto Attack on Crane Twirl, just like ALL OTHER FIGHTERS get. Crane Flock is then completely out of date (as opposed to the only halfway state it currently holds), so change it. A blue AOE rescue (think Sacrament, Insolence lines) would round off the Brawler classes ideally.</p><p>Thoughts, input, flames...all welcome. Obviously I'm not suggesting that other Fighter's achievement trees are perfect, but even a portion of these improvements would go a long way towards putting Brawlers back in line with their plate wearing colleagues.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p>I kind of like crane twirl, it just needs to do more dmg or proc more often.</p>

[Illine]

<p>My point of vieuw</p><p>STR - give us as much DA as other fighters - plus why the 4th line dodge gives less bonus per point than the 4th line in the stat tree???</p><p>AGI - Quite ok for me</p><p>STA - useless as it is (not good for dps nor tanking) we never use ranged weapon, or very not often ... the proc is less good than crane twirl and mantis leap not good enough to take it, since now it's easy to have high crit.</p><p>make the 2nd buff a flurry proc, like 0.5% per point?? 8 points --> 4%?</p><p>mantis leap I don't know how to change it</p><p>WIS - Make crane twirl an AE auto attack and same percentage as other fighters, the +% hp is nice, and make crane flock something else, as said, an AE powerful attack</p><p>INT - gives us more crit just like other fighters and a new end line ... it's useless now . the int line is a dps line, so the end ability should help us dps ... why not a +dps buff?? (I know monks don't need +haste so I didn't talk about it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</p><p>the funny thing, in our EoF tree, monks and bruisers have a buff to generate less aggro, this means they knew brawlers were also a dps class. Now we don't dps more than other fighters, so what's the point of having this buff too?</p>

[Aull]

<p><cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My point of vieuw</p><p>STR - give us as much DA as other fighters - plus why the 4th line dodge gives less bonus per point than the 4th line in the stat tree???</p><p>AGI - Quite ok for me</p><p>STA - useless as it is (not good for dps nor tanking) we never use ranged weapon, or very not often ... the proc is less good than crane twirl and mantis leap not good enough to take it, since now it's easy to have high crit.</p><p>make the 2nd buff a flurry proc, like 0.5% per point?? 8 points --> 4%?</p><p>mantis leap I don't know how to change it</p><p>WIS - Make crane twirl an AE auto attack and same percentage as other fighters, the +% hp is nice, and make crane flock something else, as said, an AE powerful attack</p><p>INT - gives us more crit just like other fighters and a new end line ... it's useless now . the int line is a dps line, so the end ability should help us dps ... why not a +dps buff?? (I know monks don't need +haste so I didn't talk about it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />)</p><p><span style="color: #00ff00; font-size: small;">the funny thing, in our EoF tree, monks and bruisers have a buff to generate less aggro, this means they knew brawlers were also a dps class. Now we don't dps more than other fighters, so what's the point of having this buff too?</span></p></blockquote><p>Exactly. Brawler dps from launch to eof was strong enough to pull aggro off plate tanks all things being equal. So getting this aa path in kos expansion was a benefit. This aa path was useful but currently is a total waste of points. Even while using manhandle my bruiser cannot take aggro off a well played plate tank. No need for a worthless detaunt anymore.</p>

[ShinGoku]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Illine@Storms wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>My point of vieuw</p><p>STR - give us as much DA as other fighters - plus why the 4th line dodge gives less bonus per point than the 4th line in the stat tree???</p><p>AGI - Quite ok for me</p><p>STA - useless as it is (not good for dps nor tanking) we never use ranged weapon, or very not often ... the proc is less good than crane twirl and mantis leap not good enough to take it, since now it's easy to have high crit.</p><p>make the 2nd buff a flurry proc, like 0.5% per point?? 8 points --> 4%?</p><p>mantis leap I don't know how to change it</p><p>WIS - Make crane twirl an AE auto attack and same percentage as other fighters, the +% hp is nice, and make crane flock something else, as said, an AE powerful attack</p><p>INT - gives us more crit just like other fighters and a new end line ... it's useless now . the int line is a dps line, so the end ability should help us dps ... why not a +dps buff?? (I know monks don't need +haste so I didn't talk about it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />)</p><p><span style="font-size: small; color: #00ff00;">the funny thing, in our EoF tree, monks and bruisers have a buff to generate less aggro, this means they knew brawlers were also a dps class. Now we don't dps more than other fighters, so what's the point of having this buff too?</span></p></blockquote><p>Exactly. Brawler dps from launch to eof was strong enough to pull aggro off plate tanks all things being equal. So getting this aa path in kos expansion was a benefit. This aa path was useful but currently is a total waste of points. Even while using manhandle my bruiser cannot take aggro off a well played plate tank. No need for a worthless detaunt anymore.</p></blockquote><p>This is still the joke of it, every plate tank does more damage than the dps tank of choice... And every plate tank takes damage better than the dps tank of choice.... Theres definately something wrong there you'd think wouldnt you....</p><p>Either give us more dps option thru AA or give us decent mitigation comparable to the plates as avoidance just doesnt cut the mustard.</p>

[jrolla777]

<blockquote><p>This is still the joke of it, every plate tank does more damage than the dps tank of choice... And every plate tank takes damage better than the dps tank of choice.... Theres definately something wrong there you'd think wouldnt you....</p><p>Either give us more dps option thru AA or give us decent mitigation comparable to the plates as avoidance just doesnt cut the mustard.</p></blockquote><p>Well, dev's decided to bump up plate tanksto the same autoattack damage table as brawlers. that made brawlers much less likely to outdps the other tanks. So to fix this, we need better tanking eof trees, or give brawlersmore dps. i'd rather have better tanking ability like increased mitigation, or a mechanic chnage so duble attacks dont one shot us.</p><p>also, brawlers should be immune to strikethrough naturally or an achievement option.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Well I say that placing all the fighters on the same auto attck mod is where the brawlers have lost much of their once "greater fighter dps" claim. The issue that I have with this is that plates get to keep their mit survival while gaining much needed dps where brawlers gain nothing defensively to compensate.</p><p>Bruisers loose even more so because they do not have any clutch defensive abilities until they get the mythical and 175+ aa's. Ok they do have rock skin but any bruiser knows that ability is useless and it would only be benefical to a monk if enough aa's are aquired to remove the stun portion of that ability.</p><p>The end line ability in the int line for brawlers is meaningless and needs to be modified into a 10 second proc that will activate once the brawlers health falls below 50% giving the mit increase and higher crit rate.</p><p>The stamina line needs a total overhaul. I am certain that anything that would increase survival and hate in this line would be a good start.</p>

[BChizzle]

<p><cite>Aull wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well I say that placing all the fighters on the same auto attck mod is where the brawlers have lost much of their once "greater fighter dps" claim. The issue that I have with this is that plates get to keep their mit survival while gaining much needed dps where brawlers gain nothing defensively to compensate.</p><p>Bruisers loose even more so because they do not have any clutch defensive abilities until they get the mythical and 175+ aa's. Ok they do have rock skin but any bruiser knows that ability is useless and it would only be benefical to a monk if enough aa's are aquired to remove the stun portion of that ability.</p><p>The end line ability in the int line for brawlers is meaningless and needs to be modified into a 10 second proc that will activate once the brawlers health falls below 50% giving the mit increase and higher crit rate.</p><p>The stamina line needs a total overhaul. I am certain that anything that would increase survival and hate in this line would be a good start.</p></blockquote><p>With the recent nerfs it seems brawlers are back on top of the dps food chain for whatever it is worth.</p>

[Illine]

<p>why are they back on top???</p>

[Aull]

<p>What nerfs? How long have these nerfs been active? If it has anything to do with gu 52 then I would say a couple of days is not enough time to properly conduct tests to give any evidence to prove that other fighters lost and brawlers are now better dps.</p><p>If anything it probably equalized all fighter dps but leaving brawlers with same ole garbage aa selection and medicore tanking survival. If that is the case then yay for the plates cause we didn't loose and bleh for the brawlers cause they gained nothing.</p>

[circusgirl]

<p>The nerfs he's referring to are the fact that procs can no longer critical hit.  Since procs by and large use spell crit, which brawlers (unless they have the evil avatar gi) have very little of, while SKs have a ton of, SKs took a big hit from this change while low-end brawlers were more or less unaffected by.  Our dps hasn't gone up at all, but in theory the out of control SK dps should be down a bit.</p>

[Aull]

<p>Thanks for the clarification. I am just flustered atm is all. It gets old seeing many monks and bruisers in channel lfg that get the flames of "your a monk and you think any group needs you?" or "go roll a class that is actually needed". Statements such as that in ignorance or knowledge of are just so old.</p><p>I see brawlers repeating the lfg spam more than other classes.</p>

[Illine]

<p>actually I have no real problem tanking. I have T2 brawler set and I can tank quite fine heroics.</p><p>I can stay alive against a 85 +++ ... only problem is hate gain.</p><p>We don't have any hate gain in the KoS tree and we should. Make the sta line a tanking/hate gain line for us to tank better.</p><p>Right now it's a pain in the ... to get back aggro when I play with a crasy illu and an assassin with its mythical;</p><p>and another topic, sorry ... stop making proc that aggro when in front and desaggro when in the back ... coz when you loose aggro and see the mobs back and then the thing proc, you're quite happy .... (coz taunts don't help much in aggro generation)</p>