Blue AE taunts

[Noaani]

<p>The taunt portion of fighter "blue" AEs that were given a taunt component have that taunt crit chance for each target set individually. It is possible for the taunt to crit on one target and not crit on another. It is also possible for the taunt to crit and the damage to not crit, or vice versa.</p><p>This just seems... wierd.</p><p>I can understand the damage (melee crit) and taunt (taunt crit) being worked out seperatly, but the taunt on it should either crit on all mobs it hits or not crit on any... just like every other blue AE in the game.</p>

[Ocello]

<p>Also, I know you are going for class differentiation here, but I brought my zerker and my monk over to test and the blue aoe difference is ridiculous:</p><p>Zerker: 714-1953 melee damage, 6040-7382 threat</p><p>Monk:  769-1233 magic damage, 2207-2697 threat</p><p>I realize Zerkers are AoE tanks and monks are single target kings.  But it is that way right now on live, don't widen the gap further.  I mean I appreciate the 10k single target taunt u gave my monk, but guess what?  He doesn't lose single target aggro as is!  The AoE differences are asenine!!</p><p>You are making the gap between aoe tanks and single target tanks too big.  And if a fight REQUIRES this kind of aoe aggro management, my pitiful monk will be relegated to a DPS role in groups instead of his rightful role as Tank.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You are making the gap between aoe tanks and single target tanks too big.  And if a fight REQUIRES this kind of aoe aggro management, my pitiful monk will be relegated to a DPS role in groups instead of his rightful role as Tank.</blockquote><p>Right now, a bezerker is able to keep single target aggro almost as well as a guardian, simply because their single target taunts are not that much smaller, but their AE taunts are 2 - 3 times the size. The AE taunts are more than making up for the slightly smaller single targets.</p><p>Either zerker and SK AEs need to be cut back by about 1/3, zerker and SK single target taunts cut back by 50% or guardian, brawler and paladin AEs increased by 50%. If none of these happen, bezerkers and SKs will hold better AE and better single target aggro.</p>

[digitalblasphemy]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ocello wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You are making the gap between aoe tanks and single target tanks too big.  And if a fight REQUIRES this kind of aoe aggro management, my pitiful monk will be relegated to a DPS role in groups instead of his rightful role as Tank.</blockquote><p>Right now, <strong>a bezerker is able to keep single target aggro almost as well as a guardian, simply because their single target taunts are not that much smaller</strong>, but their AE taunts are 2 - 3 times the size. The AE taunts are more than making up for the slightly smaller single targets.</p><p>Either zerker and SK AEs need to be cut back by about 1/3, zerker and SK single target taunts cut back by 50% or guardian, brawler and paladin AEs increased by 50%. If none of these happen, bezerkers and SKs will hold better AE and better single target aggro.</p></blockquote><p>The inaccuracy of this statement brings into question anything else further from you.  The fact you said it, means you have NEVER played a zerker at end level.  So you don't actually know how hard or easy it is to hold agro on a zerker. Or you would realise beserkers hold agro not through taunts, but melee dps.  And right now, that is done via O stance simply due to the fact we can hit the mob, vs being in D and seeing more miss hits than hits. </p><p>There's not a single aoe class that's going to agree with your statement about having their ae abilities lessened.  When we brought up the issues over the years, about how on single targets, our ae abilties were not as effective as single target specialists, we were told, well you're aoe classes, it's meant to be that way.  But when we finally get some aoe content, all of a sudden, all these same people them complain about our abilities.  No matter that it took over 4 years for any consistant aoe content to be added to the game.  So using the comments and statements all the aoe classes were given by the single target specialists in the past, we are aoe classes, it's meant to be that way.  You had no interest in having our single target effectiveness raised in the past, so Pot, meet Mr Kettle.</p>

[Tandy]

<p>Sk's being AoE type definatly do have more trouble holding 1 single target over holding a group of mobs, just like zerkers.  Anyone who thinks "the AoE stuff works just as well on one target!!11!!!1!" obviously has never played an AOE tank, or at least played one and understood what was going on.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>beserkers hold agro not through taunts, but melee dps.</blockquote><p>Not on test they dont. Did you not see the 9k AE taunt?</p>

[digitalblasphemy]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>beserkers hold agro not through taunts, but melee dps.</blockquote><p>Not on test they dont. Did you not see the 9k AE taunt?</p></blockquote><p>You mean the aoe ca we have that had hate added to it?  The one I saw was 5-6k, and it's broken.  It doesn't taunt the mob at all, instead it actually taunts us lol.  True story.  The wording is messed up and says gives threat to caster, as in me, instead of giving threat to target, or the mob.</p><p>It's clear that soe want us to hold agro via taunts, and not dps.  Yet, with all the discussions I've had, everyone I've spoken with agrees, that melee dps is still going to be a big factor in holding agro. The problem is that now in defensive, our hit rates are going to plummet just as they are on live.  Nothing has been addressed to remedy this.  Add to that, the 0.5 melee multiplier resulting in a loss of 30% melee dmg in defensive, and you can see they had to boost our taunts and ca's.  It's infuriating when you see your melee hits being missed, hit after hit after hit, and you're spaming your taunts and other things trying to cling onto agro.  That's how it is now on live with our current  D stance, and the test version is even worse when it comes to melee dps.  That's why zerkers tank in offensive.  Not because they have a deathwish and like to take more dmg, or that they need to parse highly, it's because we can hit the mob more consistantly, and thus have a better agro foundation to then lay the taunts and things on top of that.</p><p>So if a 9k taunt as you referred to was added to a ca (which is on a 30sec recast btw), that doesn't close the gap from the lost melee dps we do now.  Something has to be boosted if our melee dps is flushed down the toilet.</p>

[Glerin]

<p>here comes the age when tanks will not use stances anymore!</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You mean the aoe ca we have that had hate added to it?  The one I saw was 5-6k, and it's broken.  It doesn't taunt the mob at all, instead it actually taunts us lol.  True story.  The wording is messed up and says gives threat to caster, as in me, instead of giving threat to target, or the mob.</blockquote><p>In defensive stance that taunt is listed as doing 9k, add crits to that and the thing will hit for almost 15k.</p><p>Obviously its not working as intended atm... which is why its on the test server not live, but if you honestly think that bezerkers will continue to hold aggro of any form via DPS, then you have completely missed the point of these changes.</p>

[digitalblasphemy]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You mean the aoe ca we have that had hate added to it?  The one I saw was 5-6k, and it's broken.  It doesn't taunt the mob at all, instead it actually taunts us lol.  True story.  The wording is messed up and says gives threat to caster, as in me, instead of giving threat to target, or the mob.</blockquote><p>In defensive stance that taunt is listed as doing 9k, add crits to that and the thing will hit for almost 15k.</p><p>Obviously its not working as intended atm... which is why its on the test server not live, <strong>but if you honestly think that bezerkers will continue to hold aggro of any form via DPS, then you have completely missed the point of these changes.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Actually it's you who missed my point.  The dropoff from the loss in melee dps is huge.  The addition and boost to taunts does not make up for this loss.  If my melee dps is lowered by 50% in defensive stance from what I can do now in defensive, or 100% from what I can do now in offensive, then my taunts need to be boosted more than a 9k taunt on a 30sec recast, 1.5 cast blue aoe.  That's my point.  You can't negate that melee dps is still going to be a factor in holding agro.  It's just not a tool that determines the majority of our hate anymore.  But as I said, that's the direction soe wants to take things.</p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><strong>If my melee dps is lowered</strong> <strong>by</strong> 50% in defensive stance from what I can do now in defensive, or <strong>100% from what I can do now in offensive</strong>, then my taunts need to be boosted more than a 9k taunt on a 30sec recast, 1.5 cast blue aoe.</blockquote><p>If your DPS is lowered by 100%, you will be doing no DPS. I think we can both agree that this is not the case.</p><p>As to your concerns, after betraying a copied guardian to a bezerker and tanking a group, multi target mobs are definatly NOT an issue for a zerker (mastercrafted weapon vs mythical warlock and I still had rock solid aggro).</p>

[jadsded]

<p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>beserkers hold agro not through taunts, but melee dps.</blockquote><p>Not on test they dont. Did you not see the 9k AE taunt?</p></blockquote><p>You mean the aoe ca we have that had hate added to it?  The one I saw was 5-6k, and it's broken.  It doesn't taunt the mob at all, instead it actually taunts us lol.  True story.  The wording is messed up and says gives threat to caster, as in me, instead of giving threat to target, or the mob.</p><p>It's clear that soe want us to hold agro via taunts, and not dps.  Yet, with all the discussions I've had, everyone I've spoken with agrees, that melee dps is still going to be a big factor in holding agro. The problem is that now in defensive, our hit rates are going to plummet just as they are on live.  Nothing has been addressed to remedy this.  Add to that, the 0.5 melee multiplier resulting in a loss of 30% melee dmg in defensive, and you can see they had to boost our taunts and ca's.  It's infuriating when you see your melee hits being missed, hit after hit after hit, and you're spaming your taunts and other things trying to cling onto agro.  That's how it is now on live with our current  D stance, and the test version is even worse when it comes to melee dps.  That's why zerkers tank in offensive.  Not because they have a deathwish and like to take more dmg, or that they need to parse highly, it's because we can hit the mob more consistantly, and thus have a better agro foundation to then lay the taunts and things on top of that.</p><p><span style="font-weight: bold;">So if a 9k taunt as you referred to was added to a ca (which is on a 30sec recast btw), that doesn't close the gap from the lost melee dps we do now.  Something has to be boosted if our melee dps is flushed down the toilet.</span></p></blockquote><p>Hmmm... you kinda sound like a Guard on the live servers...</p><p>I for one am really curious to see how this all works out.  I'm hoping (probably dreaming) that the devs will actually listen and tweak stuff.  What seems to be their modus operandi lately is driving their ideas down our throats, not taking any feedback into consideration, and just writing it all off as whining.  As for the OP, I understand that certain tanks are supposed to excell at group and certain at single, but at the same time with all the changes to hate modifiers, when you see differences that big, it does make you wonder if it is even worth gearing up your Guard if nothing is going to change from the way things are on live.  If it is going to be same but different.</p>

[digitalblasphemy]

<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><strong>If my melee dps is lowered</strong> <strong>by</strong> 50% in defensive stance from what I can do now in defensive, or <strong>100% from what I can do now in offensive</strong>, then my taunts need to be boosted more than a 9k taunt on a 30sec recast, 1.5 cast blue aoe.</blockquote><p><strong>If your DPS is lowered by 100%, you will be doing no DPS</strong>. I think we can both agree that this is not the case.</p><p>As to your concerns, after betraying a copied guardian to a bezerker and tanking a group, multi target mobs are definatly NOT an issue for a zerker (mastercrafted weapon vs mythical warlock and I still had rock solid aggro).</p></blockquote><p>Not when you use soe fuzzy math it's not <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Noaani]

<p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Not when you use soe fuzzy math it's not <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></blockquote><p>This is true.</p><p>For the record... I did the math trying to work out how a zerker and guardian are able to hold aggro, and intheory they can't. I did this before logging on to test, and before I posted anything on the topic.</p><p>I logged on to my guardian knowing I had a group of fully raid geared characters waiting for me (I have my fabled epic on my guardian... thats about it), and I was expecting it o be worse than on live where I pull, the DPS tanks and the healers heal through the mob.</p><p>That didn't happen. I pulled, held aggro for the most part, and on the occasion I did lose aggro I had one of my saves up to get it back again. Mathmatically, this should not have happened, but it did.</p>

[forge32]

<p>If you have problems holding agro  with a 9 k tuant that can possibly crit 15k every 30 secounds you got serious problems or need to reroll class.Do you even know how foolish  you sound stateing 9 k tuant every 30 secounds does not compensate?</p>

[Spe]

<p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>You mean the aoe ca we have that had hate added to it?  The one I saw was 5-6k, and it's broken.  It doesn't taunt the mob at all, instead it actually taunts us lol.  True story.  The wording is messed up and says gives threat to caster, as in me, instead of giving threat to target, or the mob.</blockquote><p>In defensive stance that taunt is listed as doing 9k, add crits to that and the thing will hit for almost 15k.</p><p>Obviously its not working as intended atm... which is why its on the test server not live, <strong>but if you honestly think that bezerkers will continue to hold aggro of any form via DPS, then you have completely missed the point of these changes.</strong></p></blockquote><p>Actually it's you who missed my point.  The dropoff from the loss in melee dps is huge.  The addition and boost to taunts does not make up for this loss.  If my melee dps is lowered by 50% in defensive stance from what I can do now in defensive, or 100% from what I can do now in offensive, then my taunts need to be boosted more than a 9k taunt on a 30sec recast, 1.5 cast blue aoe.  That's my point.  You can't negate that melee dps is still going to be a factor in holding agro.  It's just not a tool that determines the majority of our hate anymore.  But as I said, that's the direction soe wants to take things.</p></blockquote><p>You lose 30% of autoattack dps. And some dps due to misses. Not 100%, not even 50%.</p>

[Detor]

<p><cite>Xaren@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sk's being AoE type definatly do have more trouble holding 1 single target over holding a group of mobs, just like zerkers.  Anyone who thinks "the AoE stuff works just as well on one target!!11!!!1!" obviously has never played an AOE tank, or at least played one and understood what was going on.</p></blockquote><p>On live perhaps that is true.  On test however here's how the new numbers come up when you add the single target and encounter 10 second taunts:</p><p><span ><p>Shadowknight Encounter Taunt - 3,647 - 4,457</p><p>Paladin Encounter Taunt 1,367 - 1671</p><p>Shadowknight Single Target Taunt - 2,030 - 2,482 + 900dmg (900 more threat?)</p><p>Paladin Single Target Taunt 3,249 - 3,971</p></span></p><p><span ><span><p>Single Target Encounter</p><p>Paladin: up to 5,642 threat</p><p>Shadowknight: up to 7,839 threat - winner.</p><p>Multitarget encounter</p><p>Paladin: up to 5,642 to one target, ONLY up to 1671 versus other targets in encounter</p><p>Shadowknight: up to 7,839 to one target, but up to 4,457 to every other mob in encounter - winner by almost 3x as much threat on everything but one mob.</p><p>The AoE tank's main taunts generate more threat to BOTH multimob AND single mob encounters.  However hard you believe it is for your AoE tank to hold aggro - it's even harder for the single target tanks now on test.  Don't forget the single target tanks are taking the same DPS reduction from being forced into defensive that you are as well.</p><p>That's a comparison of the main taunts (the 10 second reuse ones); paladins have what amends was changed into. Shadowknights do 600 threat to target everytime something hits them so there are other factors for both sides, but overall you can see how multitarget tanks generate more threat in both multimob situations AND in single mob situations.</p></span></span></p>