Warrior Defense Stances Please Explain [Archive]

arksun

01-08-2009, 12:35 AM

Please explain why berserkers get 2 procs of 8% hate gain, with 25 dps and 25 haste and they get the STATIC 8% hate gain, while guards get just the static 8%.<img src="http://www.spetz.ru/Guard_bers.gif" width="1213" height="1228" />

Landiin

01-08-2009, 02:27 AM

Yea, static stats are mostly ballance but zerks get the nod with all the procs.

Aeralik

01-08-2009, 02:42 AM

Berserk currently has 3 procs on it. When it was combined 2 were left on the defensive stance which make sense on taking damage or on hit. So its really no different than how it is today other than berserk got an offensive and defensive adjustment. I did similar things with lots of the merged spells so that they made better sense in the new merged state.

Pitt Hammerfi

01-08-2009, 04:10 AM

Aeralik SK's get 2 procs called unholy strike. The one on the Def stance heals and taunts, and the one on Relentless hunger heals and Dmg'sI don't know if they should have the same name, the one on the Def stance should be called unholy hate or something.

Spe

01-08-2009, 05:10 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berserk currently has 3 procs on it. When it was combined 2 were left on the defensive stance which make sense on taking damage or on hit. So its really no different than how it is today other than berserk got an offensive and defensive adjustment. I did similar things with lots of the merged spells so that they made better sense in the new merged state.</blockquote>Aeralik, zerkers have all the same taunts, but got far more beneficial defensive stance associated with dps oriented abilities. Zerker mythic combined hate gain based on taken damage and again procs for hate gain tied to taken damage! Could you deny that tanking and taking damage is the same things?Zerker have dps buff proc on the mythic as well, while guardian have nor dps neither hate gain abilities. Same thing for damage reduction - zerkers have static 5% accompanied with 100% frontal AE autoattack, pally - 10% and another 10% goes to immediate heal, and guardians - just a PROC for 5% reduction? May be guardians have other constant damage reduction sources on the TSO set? Nope...Can you call this "balance"? DPS oriented tank have far more benefits both from mythical weapon and defensive stance, while "protection" oriented tank have weaker defencive capabilities. Do you know that 3-4 points in defence and parry is just nothing from the survivability point of view?

Landiin

01-08-2009, 05:18 AM

Remove the 8% hate from the two procs and I can understand because zerkers should have more DPS then guards. I think at leaste hate gain should be kept balanced or maybe even more to the guard being the zerker should be putting out more DPS. Or better yet add two 8% procs to the guard D stance and don't nerf the zerkers stance, triggering the proc off of melee attack would be sweet <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Spe

01-08-2009, 05:29 AM

Lets take a look on buffs for hate gain and taunts base available for guardian:As for taunts base - dirge buff give 18%, 8% from the STR line, 4% from set bracers, 4% from boots - so guard have at least 34%. And another 8% from the def stance. As for hate gain - dirge give 13.2%, defensive stance gives 8% - about 21 in total. And nothing else! Please remember the adding to less buffed source of the hate gain give much more the additions to decently buffed one.So zerkers have serious addition to the less buffed source, while guards - to decently buffed one.

Elanjar

01-08-2009, 05:35 AM

Guards should really just get the static hate gain increased to like 12%. more reliable overall. and its not really important but guards do get double the agression.

beerfest

01-08-2009, 06:04 AM

hasnt the guards got nerfed enough yet?

Aan'azyroth

01-08-2009, 06:18 AM

If you want tanks to only tank in Defensive that bad, is it not time to remove the slashing/piercing/crushing penalties from the defensive stances? Tanks can't hold aggro when they can't hit stuff (con orange encounters and s/p/c penalties...)If you allow me to compare, no matter how much i disliked AoC, the tank stances there were a lot "smarter" than the EQ2 ones... Lower dps and higher hate gain for Def Stance is indeed the way to go, but it shouldn't affect melee hit rates, which are stupid enough already. Nowadays tanks go offensive in order to be able to hit con orange mobs properly, and if the healer(s) can keep the tank alive, what's the problem with that?

Emlar_from_Halas

01-08-2009, 07:37 AM

On Stance: Armored and Stance: Determined I can read:"Decreases Melee Damage Multiplier of caster by 0.5"What's this suppose to mean ?That my auto-attack dps is going to drop by 50% ? Just after we already lost 40% double attack ?!?If this is the case (and I hope I just misunderstood it), why the hell would we use a defensive stance ?There are plenty of cases when we need to dps (either we solo, dual or group for instances).I don't see any reason to halve a dps which is already much lower than pure dps classes. I don't want to spend ages to kill a ^ mob very much like I was 4 years ago with treasured stuff.If the only solution to solve global raid aggro issues is to double nerf tanks, I suggest to look for alternatives. May I humbly propose to lower aggro generated by dps for all classes ?** feel grompy...

schizolic

01-08-2009, 07:56 AM

I agree, the 0.5 autoattack reduction needs to go, and something needs to be done about the reduction to offensive skills. It's almost like they want to push guards and zerkers onto the wisdom aa line, which pretty much all guards and zerkers agree is the worst line to take as a whole with only the end being worth anything.i do like the off stance reducing hate and turning taunts into deaggro's.

Emlar_from_Halas

01-08-2009, 08:09 AM

The more I thing about stances, I less I understand Aeralik's shift.Initially, we had 2 stances that allowed us to assess how strong a mob hits and how well our healers can do their job in order to adapt to this danger.Depending on our assumptions we would start in def to relieve our healers until the mob was completely debuffed.Potentially the mob hit so much (like Druushk was) that we would stay in def all fight long.Eventually the mob was so weak that we could start directly in off.So basically, it was part of our skill to decide when and how to switch.Now, we don't have much choice. Either we tank and we have to be in def, or we dps and we should be in off.I can already see that some will choose to stay without any stance...Like Jessi said, the fact to loose so much slash skill doesn't give us much freedom unless there's a warden in the group.I don't think the point was to reduce tanks dps but to reduce the importance of this dps as part of the overall aggro generated. But as long as the overall raid objective is to raise the raid dps, this is like asking 23 guys to walk clockwise and ask the 24th to walk counter clockwise.With the incoming changes I don't see any reason why a pure dps would try to lower his dps or even to use his desaggros, since the aggro management is only the tank issue. Their main objective will still be to dps as high as possible.A solution to this : Provide each dps class a spell/combat art that will boost the tank Aggro.This is now a shared concern where not only the tank need to maximise his aggro with tanut and dps, but where each dps class can also contribute at the cost of a small % of their own dps.

Bremer

01-08-2009, 08:57 AM

You are just randomly comparing numbers you like and ignore numbers you don't like. The Guardians's single taunt now has almost two times the threat of the Beserker taunt, the Guardian's stance has two time the aggression, more parry, more defense, agi, wis, permanent base taunt improvement (Beserker not even temporary), the Guardian's taunt proc works on all damage taken, the Beserker's has half the proc chance and work only on melee and you are complaining about a temporary 8 % hate gain proc?

Irgun

01-08-2009, 08:59 AM

Another question: how are you supposed to "burn" your classadd as a fighter with this lowered dps? Offense Stance is no option, because you detaunt too much and you still have to tank it after all.Of course, you could bring 5-6 fighters to a raid, but 90% of the time the majority would go offense with mediocre dps (there you could have a real dps class after all) and without the capability to snap aggro immediately when it is needed when mt dies. (you`ve detaunted the whole time, remember)Tbh: offense stances are almost useless within grp/raid - you can also call them "solo stances" - the only time I´d ever consider to use them, and even there I`m not willing to take 5% more damage.The 0.5 penalty weapon modifier has to go - the penalty for going defense is the reduction of your melee-skills, thats enough of an issue you have to compensate. (orange con! 8lvls higher and so.....and it worked well the last couple of years)As for paladins, why would you use amends every 1mins or so if you can use holy ground every 37seconds? Never! Its just another lame meleetaunt you really wont use at a full scale - change it to a buff again - maybe nerfed maybe working different - but please not just another lame (obsolete) taunt.Shoving down a huge slice of hateamount attached to some combat arts the fighters throat seems to be the wrong way to replace reliable and well working hate buffs/transfers for the aggro mechanism - it actually looks like a sloppy solution.And besides: if gu 51 goes live like it is right now - you gonna kill the dps-feeling. No one is ever going to scream "omg i just hit 7k hate per second!" - thats just something youre not proud of because its not killing the encounter.My suggestion: delay this fighter change to gu #53+, come up with something more valuable - without nerfing the hell out of tanks dps.And another thing: why does spell consolidation mean you change some parts? Guards defstance has 50 def/parry now, consolidated on test only 43 def/parry. (all fighter classes have changed numbers I think). Looks like another hidden nerf.

Aan'azyroth

01-08-2009, 09:04 AM

<cite>Emlar_from_Halas wrote:</cite><blockquote>With the incoming changes I don't see any reason why a pure dps would try to lower his dps or even to use his desaggros, since the aggro management is only the tank issue. Their main objective will still be to dps as high as possible.</blockquote>Well in my view aggro will still be the entire group's responsibility, even after the changes. Tanks will just have to slack less when they have coercer + dirge + swash/assassin, or another combination of those classes.It will still be important for mages and scouts to de-aggro, hence the reduced cast/recast on Concussive etc, as stated in the Test Update Notes...Overall these changes look very interesting...

Noaani

01-08-2009, 09:07 AM

<cite>Irgin@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Another question: how are you supposed to "burn" your classadd as a fighter with this lowered dps? Offense Stance is no option, because you detaunt too much and you still have to tank it after all.</blockquote>Are you serious? like... actually serious?If so... wow.

Emlar_from_Halas

01-08-2009, 10:13 AM

<cite>Jessi@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well in my view aggro will still be the entire group's responsibility, even after the changes. Tanks will just have to slack less when they have coercer + dirge + swash/assassin, or another combination of those classes.It will still be important for mages and scouts to de-aggro, hence the reduced cast/recast on Concussive etc, as stated in the Test Update Notes...Overall these changes look very interesting...</blockquote>I don't agree jessi. How many concussive can you expect to be cast on a 5 minutes fights ? Probably 0 if your raid reach 80K+ dps (not to mention 100K+...)At the moment, most of the pure dps in our raids will never cast a de-aggro in a proactive way, in order to keep their dps as high as possible. If they do, this is purely to save their a.. (and usually too late). By providing them all a way to co-build the MT aggro, you would turn a tank only issue into a shared objective.BTW, I'm rather surprised you may think a MT can slack less. ATM, independently of the tank class, we really have to burn both our dps and our taunts to keep the aggro over 10k+ dps who don't give a monkey about our aggro issue.A lot of tanks claim aggro is a raid shared issue, but we don't have the mechanism to turn this statement true except asking pure dps to slow their cast chain, which is really the uggliest solution. You would ask them to under perform. Let's turn this into a shared task.Now, I can understand that some tanks wouldn't want to share the aggro management with other raiders, since they consider it as their private battleground. But I don't want to lose my dps because of this.

Noaani

01-08-2009, 11:13 AM

<cite>Emlar_from_Halas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like Jessi said, the fact to loose so much slash skill doesn't give us much freedom unless there's a warden in the group.</blockquote>There's always Stance Mastery.

Spe

01-08-2009, 11:54 AM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are just randomly comparing numbers you like and ignore numbers you don't like. The Guardians's single taunt now has almost two times the threat of the Beserker taunt, the Guardian's stance has two time the aggression, more parry, more defense, agi, wis, permanent base taunt improvement (Beserker not even temporary), the Guardian's taunt proc works on all damage taken, the Beserker's has half the proc chance and work only on melee and you are complaining about a temporary 8 % hate gain proc?</blockquote>Have you tried to compare not just one taunt?Single target taunt of guard is 1.6 times powerfull (4538 vs 2836). But group taunt is much weaker (1910 vs 3820). So guardians are not intended to tank more then one mob while zerkers can easily tank all types: single, group and AE (several groups). This is nonsence!!!Lets do some math:Take these 2 taunts - single and group ones. Not taking into account any buffs/AAs (they are pretty much the same for both warriors, except defensive stance bonuses).Guard: single: 3713-4538 each 8 seconds. An average 515 threat/second. group: 1563-1910 each 10 seconds. An average 173 t/s.Zerker: single: 2321-2836 each 8 seconds. An average 322 t/s. group: 3126-3820 each 10 seconds. An average 347 t/s.So, the single target tanking using ONLY these two taunts:Guardian: 515+173=689 t/sZerker: 322+347=669 t/sGroup tanking:Guardian: 173 t/sZerker: 347 t/sSo if you going to tank more then one target - stick to zerker. If you going to tank single target - there are practically no dirrefence at all.And you still think that these values are pretty balanced?

JinjAB

01-08-2009, 12:00 PM

I may represent a small proportion of the payerbase, but I dual-box. However I bet there are alot of people out there that make small groups for questing and such, so this would appear relevant.I have yet to get on Test, but I am thinking that to keep agro off my second box (healer or dps) or friend in a two person group, even for RoK overland solo stuffs is going to be hard.In offense, I am taking more damage and even just by kicking or my Heroic Opportunity chain, will be lowering my hate, meanwhile my box will be generating hate by heals or dps. Longer recovery time and more chance to lose agro. Less fun.If I switch to defense, my dps gets reduced, my chance to hit gets reduced (not so bad except on yellow heroics I guess) all making encounters take longer and less fun.What's the point of this rubbish for normal play? Was there an overwhelming problem that needed to be fixed?I play a monk & a zerker and really although I liked the idea that I could agro better (it was not a problem before I have to say) in groups and take a "bring on the DPS, just try and rip now" stance with fun groups, I was not prepared for what it MAY do for little casual duo/trioing.Guess it's time to get on test and try it out, I hope I am over-anticipating

Shammydavis

01-08-2009, 12:21 PM

Irqin wrote:The 0.5 penalty weapon modifier has to go - the penalty for going defense is the reduction of your melee-skills, thats enough of an issue you have to compensate. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is unacceptable in my opinion.

Landiin

01-08-2009, 12:23 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote>You are just randomly comparing numbers you like and ignore numbers you don't like. The Guardians's single taunt now has almost two times the threat of the Beserker taunt, the Guardian's stance has two time the aggression, more parry, more defense, agi, wis, permanent base taunt improvement (Beserker not even temporary), the Guardian's taunt proc works on all damage taken, the Beserker's has half the proc chance and work only on melee and you are complaining about a temporary 8 % hate gain proc?</blockquote>Have you tried to compare not just one taunt?Single target taunt of guard is 1.6 times powerfull (4538 vs 2836). But group taunt is much weaker (1910 vs 3820). So guardians are not intended to tank more then one mob while zerkers can easily tank all types: single, group and AE (several groups). This is nonsence!!!Lets do some math:Take these 2 taunts - single and group ones. Not taking into account any buffs/AAs (they are pretty much the same for both warriors, except defensive stance bonuses).Guard: single: 3713-4538 each 8 seconds. An average 515 threat/second. group: 1563-1910 each 10 seconds. An average 173 t/s.Zerker: single: 2321-2836 each 8 seconds. An average 322 t/s. group: 3126-3820 each 10 seconds. An average 347 t/s.So, the single target tanking using ONLY these two taunts:Guardian: 515+173=689 t/sZerker: 322+347=669 t/sGroup tanking:Guardian: 173 t/sZerker: 347 t/sSo if you going to tank more then one target - stick to zerker. If you going to tank single target - there are practically no dirrefence at all.And you still think that these values are pretty balanced?</blockquote>QFT

Aven Elonis

01-08-2009, 01:20 PM

Ok I have a Master in the Holding the Line spell and Adept III on the Def Stance.When these are combined - do I have a Master or Adept III in the combined spell ?

Soul_Dreamer

01-08-2009, 02:27 PM

Not in game at the moment but didn't Guardians loose ALOT of Defense/Parry on their defensive stance? I remember it being up in the 40's not in the 30's.Will crunch all the numbers tonight for min/max possible single target/AOE hate from abilities. But from the above example of the 2 primary taunts, it seems Aeralik has left it that AOE tanks can tank single target just as well as single target tanks and also tank AOE encounters alot better than the single target tanks. On test, Guardian/Paladin survivability is very close to Zerker/SK, all their single target agro is similar but SK/Zerker AOE agro far surpasses Guardian/Paladin, where is the tradeoff, what do Guard/Paladin do better than Zerk/SK by enough of a margin to choose those tanks over the others in group situations?

Bremer

01-08-2009, 02:49 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardian: 173 t/sZerker: 347 t/sSo if you going to tank more then one target - stick to zerker. If you going to tank single target - there are practically no dirrefence at all.</blockquote>By randomly comparing 1 or 2 spells out of 20 you prove nothing. Make this calculation including every spell of both classes. If your only argument is comparing one effect that is not on the Guard's stance while concealing that it has 5 effects that are better/not even on the Zerker stance you won't make a point.

Spe

01-08-2009, 02:57 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardian: 173 t/sZerker: 347 t/sSo if you going to tank more then one target - stick to zerker. If you going to tank single target - there are practically no dirrefence at all.</blockquote>By randomly comparing 1 or 2 spells out of 20 you prove nothing. Make this calculation including every spell of both classes. If your only argument is comparing one effect that is not on the Guard's stance while concealing that it has 5 effects that are better/not even on the Zerker stance you won't make a point.</blockquote>This is not random. This is two base taunts - single target and group one.Go on - make suggested calculation and prove, that I'm wrong. And, please, put here a list of "5 effects that are better/not even on the Zerker stance" - I'd like to see it.

Elanjar

01-08-2009, 05:39 PM

<cite>Emlar_from_Halas wrote:</cite><blockquote>The more I thing about stances, I less I understand Aeralik's shift.Initially, we had 2 stances that allowed us to assess how strong a mob hits and how well our healers can do their job in order to adapt to this danger.Depending on our assumptions we would start in def to relieve our healers until the mob was completely debuffed.Potentially the mob hit so much (like Druushk was) that we would stay in def all fight long.Eventually the mob was so weak that we could start directly in off.So basically, it was part of our skill to decide when and how to switch.Now, we don't have much choice. Either we tank and we have to be in def, or we dps and we should be in off.I can already see that some will choose to stay without any stance...Like Jessi said, the fact to loose so much slash skill doesn't give us much freedom unless there's a warden in the group.I don't think the point was to reduce tanks dps but to reduce the importance of this dps as part of the overall aggro generated. But as long as the overall raid objective is to raise the raid dps, this is like asking 23 guys to walk clockwise and ask the 24th to walk counter clockwise.</blockquote>QFEFighters should get to choose and use their skill and experience as a player to decide how to tank a zone or mob. Forcing fighters to tank a certain way will only loose the attraction of playing a fighter as it becomes cookie cutter.As for the dps question. Our off stance is supposed to be the "dps stance" but it doesnt look better than it did before. Actually it looks the same or worse. Why would any plate tank every be chosen for dps over a scout or mage class. They do more dps and its not like we'll have enough hate to pick up a mob or grab the situation when the main tank goes down (both group and raid) if were in off stance.

Kooli

01-08-2009, 05:45 PM

I was instructed to post my comments about the Offensive stance issues in the Defensive stance thread......so...Allow me to butt my head in to make this quick observation:Turning Taunts into De-Aggro's while in Offensive stance is dumb.Increasing the effectiveness of Taunts will not make-up for the even greater loss of DPS while in Defensive stance.And removin' the benefit of Taunts entirely while in Offensive stance makes that stance just as stoopid.As it stands now, it's simply a choice of how'd you prefer to LOSE aggro...thru a lack of DPS hate or thru a lack of Taunt ability.I am confused as to the overall point of the overhaul in the first place. What issue is bein' addressed? I was hopin' that the Hate changes were bein' made to help tanks maintain aggro in the face of post-TSO increases to DPSer's performance -- not make things worse and more difficult to manage!

RafaelSmith

01-08-2009, 06:25 PM

<cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was instructed to post my comments about the Offensive stance issues in the Defensive stance thread......so...</blockquote> was I...........I also do not understand turning taunts into de-aggro when in O stance....they could have achieved the same negatives and positives to the stances without having to toggle aggro to be de-aggro.If these changes go live the only time a fighter will ever be in O stance is soloing...because in every other situation its to the benifit of the group or raid that secondary fighters ride as high on the hate list as possible. They should rename the stances...O Stance = Solo Stance....D Stance = Group/Raid Stance.Really stupid change.

Junaru

01-08-2009, 06:47 PM

<cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was instructed to post my comments about the Offensive stance issues in the Defensive stance thread......so...</blockquote> was I...........I also do not understand turning taunts into de-aggro when in O stance....they could have achieved the same negatives and positives to the stances without having to toggle aggro to be de-aggro.If these changes go live the only time a fighter will ever be in O stance is soloing...because in every other situation its to the benifit of the group or raid that secondary fighters ride as high on the hate list as possible. They should rename the stances...O Stance = Solo Stance....D Stance = Group/Raid Stance.Really stupid change.</blockquote>Do either of you play on test? Have either of your /testcopy yet? Try testing it out before saying you wont be able to hold aggro in d-stance.

RafaelSmith

01-08-2009, 07:03 PM

<cite>Junaru wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was instructed to post my comments about the Offensive stance issues in the Defensive stance thread......so...</blockquote>was I...........I also do not understand turning taunts into de-aggro when in O stance....they could have achieved the same negatives and positives to the stances without having to toggle aggro to be de-aggro.If these changes go live the only time a fighter will ever be in O stance is soloing...because in every other situation its to the benifit of the group or raid that secondary fighters ride as high on the hate list as possible.They should rename the stances...O Stance = Solo Stance....D Stance = Group/Raid Stance.Really stupid change.</blockquote>Do either of you play on test? Have either of your /testcopy yet? Try testing it out before saying you wont be able to hold aggro in d-stance.</blockquote>Huh? where did I say I was not gonna be able to hold aggro in D-stance?. In fact I think holding aggro in D-stance at least for me on single targets is going to be stupidily easy...almost AFK easy.What we are talking about is being in O-stance and our aggro being toggled to de-aggro.

Dethdlr

01-08-2009, 07:29 PM

/sigh So many zerkers have disapeared since RoK came out. Many betrayed to guardians, others sold their zerkers and quit the game. Guardians have arguably been the MT of choice for quite a bit now while the zerkers sat around in the zerker forums complaining about the imbalance between the two classes (More AAs, guards could also go down the buckler line and just about match zerkers on DPS - formerly the Zerkers domain. They get their mythical and can use the buckler line without a buckler - same DPS - even more survivability. Etc.) Changes hit test that may or may not give the zerkers a boost on multi-mob encounters and the torches and pitchforks come out. Is SoE crazy? You can't make it desirable to play a zerker, much less make them more desirable than the guards! Can you imagine what would happen? People would betray over to the other warrior class or stop playing altogether! Wait, that sounds kinda familiar. And so the cycle continues. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" />Edit: Just ignore the above. I'm just bitter. I mainly play my scout now anyway.

Barbai

01-08-2009, 08:22 PM

a general question for those on test about the guard offensive stance. Will the toggle from agro gain to deagro also be effecting the attacks that have an innate hate gain or just the pure taunts? I'll admit I"m no master of all the classes or a number cruncher when it comes to play but if it is the case I am starting to think that tank class will have more quick deagros then a scout or a mage.

DisturbedMagg

01-08-2009, 11:32 PM

Im personally not so bothered about the general taunts reversing as much as i am about the "emergency" ones, rescue/sneering assault/stagging blow/peel/divide and conquer etc etc shouldn't be included if this whole taunt crap does go live. I know d&c and i prosume peel still keep the target lock but since in this expac like 90% of epics seem immune to it (which btw is bs-why give us an ability then make it pointless mostof the time) but i'd like to know i can still pick something up in an emergency without having to drop to defensive, yea it might take a second, but it's a second to long.

Noaani

01-08-2009, 11:57 PM

<cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd like to know i can still pick something up in an emergency without having to drop to defensive, yea it might take a second, but it's a second to long.</blockquote>Make a macro up that drops your off stance and casts D&C on a mob, then you can hit your def stance if you need it.You don't need to be in def stance for taunts to give you aggro, you just need to not be in off stance.Most of my guild transfered over to test_copy already, and we have done a few groups with different configurations. From a tanks perspective, holding aggro in a group that contains an assassin/swashbuckler and dirge/coercer is a lot more work than it used to be, but holding aggro in a group that does not contain one of each is a whole lot easier.My non mythicaled guardian was able to hold aggro against a wizard going all out, with the wizard only pulling aggro at the very end of the fight. This is in a group that is fairly standard ion live for us to run, in which the wizard either tanks the mobs after I pull them, or halves his DPS.We are no longer reliant on hate transfers to be able to do our job, which from my guardians point of view, makes me very happy. I have yet to push it on AE encounters at all, and I assume that is where I will run into issues again.

DisturbedMagg

01-09-2009, 12:09 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd like to know i can still pick something up in an emergency without having to drop to defensive, yea it might take a second, but it's a second to long.</blockquote>Make a macro up that drops your off stance and casts D&C on a mob, then you can hit your def stance if you need it.You don't need to be in def stance for taunts to give you aggro, you just need to not be in off stance.Most of my guild transfered over to test_copy already, and we have done a few groups with different configurations. From a tanks perspective, holding aggro in a group that contains an assassin/swashbuckler and dirge/coercer is a lot more work than it used to be, but holding aggro in a group that does not contain one of each is a whole lot easier.My non mythicaled guardian was able to hold aggro against a wizard going all out, with the wizard only pulling aggro at the very end of the fight. This is in a group that is fairly standard ion live for us to run, in which the wizard either tanks the mobs after I pull them, or halves his DPS.We are no longer reliant on hate transfers to be able to do our job, which from my guardians point of view, makes me very happy. I have yet to push it on AE encounters at all, and I assume that is where I will run into issues again.</blockquote>Only problem with macro's is they have never been reliable, normally their a pos other then for swapping gear and getting targets.

Noaani

01-09-2009, 01:38 AM

<cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Only problem with macro's is they have never been reliable, normally their a pos other then for swapping gear and getting targets.</blockquote>Don't use the macro system for a macro like this, type it out.If done propperly it is 100% reliable.

MindParadox

01-09-2009, 01:41 AM

<cite>Efob@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Im personally not so bothered about the general taunts reversing as much as i am about the "emergency" ones, rescue/sneering assault/stagging blow/peel/divide and conquer etc etc shouldn't be included if this whole taunt crap does go live. I know d&c and i prosume peel still keep the target lock but since in this expac like 90% of epics seem immune to it (which btw is bs-why give us an ability then make it pointless mostof the time) but i'd like to know i can still pick something up in an emergency without having to drop to defensive, yea it might take a second, but it's a second to long.</blockquote>Just for a bit of info, the overwhelming majority of this game is non epic mobs, so the ability isn't going to be "pointless most of the time" unless you only login to raid, then immediately log out, doing no group or solo content at allthat being said, I have to agree with the people speaking about the OFFENSIVE(capitalized in the hopes people can read it) stance being basically utterly useless in any situation other than soloing now (and with that +5% damage per hit to me part, not sure even soloing its useful) and the further reduction(unless something was done on the backend that we cant see to hit rates) of our ability to hit the broad side of a barn in defensive, it REALLY makes me wonder what the point of all this is?ok, so you added an "I'm a [Removed for Content]!" Window er, Threat Meter to the game, so yeah, with that, everyone can now pay attention to their agro and manage it much better, so the taunt/detaunt system needed work to fit, fine, all goodbut WHY screw with the stances?or do you just love having the "Live Update 13" debacle at least once a year, because EVERYONE loves it when more people quit?

digitalblasphemy

01-09-2009, 02:52 AM

<cite>Frogweiser@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please explain why berserkers get 2 procs of 8% hate gain, with 25 dps and 25 haste and they get the STATIC 8% hate gain, while guards get just the static 8%.<img src="http://www.spetz.ru/Guard_bers.gif" width="1213" height="1228" /></blockquote>My goodness there are some blind Guardians in here. All you see is what Zerkers have on their spells and totally ignore what is on yours. You want to make a point about the 8% hate mod on the defensive stance for zerkers? How about you notice that your HTL has a 50% chance to proc on ANY dmg, while a zerkers HTL procs for only 20% on only melee dmg. If you can't hold agro with that differance alone, you need to quit or go roll another class. 50% on ANY vs 20% on MELEE. FACT. A zerker having +8% hate mod in no way gives us an advantage over you on this point. It only begins to address the large gap that already exists. Zerkers have held agro through MELEE dps for years. Another FACT. Guardians will be so far ahead in this department being that you could already tank properly in D stance, due to having the self melee skill buff. Zerkers were the more offensive and dps orientated of the 2 classes, now have been forced to tank in D stance. Whose the winner here. If you think it's Berserkers, then you're more clueless than you realise.The 25 dps and 25 haste is from a current Berserker selt + group "Berserk" buff that was merged into our stances, so we did not gain anything from this, in fact we lost points, as right now an M1 gives 32 dps/haste. So there is no gain here, only a loss. FACT.I like how not a single person here has mentioned the huge dmg proc, a 4.0ppm proc that was added to the Guardian O stance. Why is that? I know you all saw it, and were clearly smaking your lips in glee. Funny how you only mention things you perceive to be unbalanced, and stay quiet on something that is such a huge boost to dps, I'm shocked it was even added to a stance, anyones stance to be frank.So let me spell out the the differences between the two stances:GuardiansSTA = +69AGI + WIS = +92Base amount of taunts = +8%Increases hate gain = +8%Aggression = 32 (+16)Defense + Parry = 38 (+6)HTL = %50 chance on ANY dmg for 742-907 hateBerserkerSTA = 0 (-69)AGI + WIS = 0 (-92)Base amount of taunts = 0 (-8%)Increases hate gain = +8% + another +8% when our Berserk procs.Aggression = 16 (-16) Defense + Parry = 32 (-6)HTL = 20% chance on MELEE dmg for 742-907 hate + 111-186 slashingBerserk buff merged from our current solo version = 25 dps/haste (something we already have on LIVE, and actually lose 6/7 points in both)So on what planet in this universe, does that even warrant concern, that Guardians are going to have an inferior D stance than Berserkers? Any? No, I didn't think so. There are differences yes, and they are very plain to see, but one clearly is better than the other in the Defense + hate department.<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berserk currently has 3 procs on it. When it was combined 2 were left on the defensive stance which make sense on taking damage or on hit. So its really no different than how it is today other than berserk got an offensive and defensive adjustment. I did similar things with lots of the merged spells so that they made better sense in the new merged state.</blockquote>Aeralik, zerkers have all the same taunts, but got far more beneficial defensive stance associated with dps oriented abilities. Zerker mythic combined hate gain based on taken damage and again procs for hate gain tied to taken damage! Could you deny that tanking and taking damage is the same things?Zerker have dps buff proc on the mythic as well, while guardian have nor dps neither hate gain abilities. Same thing for damage reduction - zerkers have static 5% accompanied with 100% frontal AE autoattack, pally - 10% and another 10% goes to immediate heal, and guardians - just a PROC for 5% reduction? May be guardians have other constant damage reduction sources on the TSO set? Nope...Can you call this "balance"? DPS oriented tank have far more benefits both from mythical weapon and defensive stance, while "protection" oriented tank have weaker defencive capabilities. Do you know that 3-4 points in defence and parry is just nothing from the survivability point of view?</blockquote>Before you open your mouth, learn what it is you are talking about, otherwise you're another illiterate person flapping his gums. Guardians single target taunt has 1.6x (using that figure from a previous posting) the amount of hate as a zerkers one. Zerkers green aoe taunt, has more hate than the Guardian one. So your comment that zerkers have all the same taunts isn't factual. Zerkers didn't gain anything beneficial dps wise on our D stance, despite what you way think. That's our current Berserk group buff that adds 32 dps/haste to everyone. All they have done is simply merge our solo Berserk buff, which is 31 dps/haste onto our stances. The fact is we lose 6/7 dps/haste when in defensive, over what we currently have. So there are no gains here. FACT.That is true, the Zerker mythical has an affect that turns a small portion of incoming dmg into hate for us. But you are you 100% incorrect in saying we can proc hate on our mythical tied to taking dmg. The text you see is an effect that adds +5 hate positions to a 3min recast spell. So effectively, it gave us another Rescue. It is not passive, it is not automatic, it is not proc'ing hate on incoming dmg. You are so wrong on this point, it's amazing.Actually the zerker "dps buff proc" you refer to I can only assume is our dmg proc, that procs on melee attacks only, and gives us +10 DA, and some crit. Massive imbalance I know, kind of like how Guardians can get oh, I don't know, +10 more DA than Berserkers from their KOS tree. So that then leaves us having +15 more crit for a duration of 10secs. Do you even want me to describe the differences between the Mythicals or have you just picked one thing out of a hat, and then said "oh look, they get that and we don't"? We're not talking about Mythicals here, rather about the differences in stances. You might as well throw in how we have a different looking class helm too. Keep to the subject at hand and that's the differences in stances.Read my above comments listing the exact differences between the D stances. Zerkers do not have more benefits from our D stance for defense vs Guardians. With a statement like that, you tacking on the little 3-4 points in defense/parry, you have no credibility whatsoever. There are some major differences.

Spe

01-09-2009, 07:04 AM

Just for your information:In typical raid MT group STA, Def, Parry are all the time overcapped. There are no any sence to buff it further - it does nothing at all. WIS is also useless at all.Agression? 16 points? Dont make me laugh! Absolutelly useless at all.Only hate gain and base amounts of taunts are make difference - and I have already posted above my point of view on these differences.Guards have nothing dps oriented on D stance at all while zerkers have. FACTAbout hate output of taunts - see my post above. 689 vs 669 hate/s for solo mob is nothing, while 173 vs 347 for group mobs - is 2 times anvantage. Maybe zerkers have problems tanking multimob encounter and need a further boost for it?And do not forget - we talking not about gain/loses compared with current state on live - we talking about difference in stances/taunts and survivability on Test. And berserkes D and O stances and mythic seems to be far more superior compared with guardian ones. Concerning D stances my main point is that agro management is not just taunts, but dps as well. Guards have nothing - zerkers have on both D stance and mythic. And 25% of incoming damage to hate - is not a small portion. FACT.Could you deny that 5% damage absorbtion proc (guard) is much weaker then 5% static combined with 100% AE autoattack (zerker) or static 10% absorbtion + 10% heal (pally)?

Spe

01-09-2009, 07:46 AM

deleted double post

Bremer

01-09-2009, 09:33 AM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have nothing dps oriented on D stance at all while zerkers have. FACT</blockquote>OMG, we need dev attention for this. Some of the spells that were merged into the stances actually got merged into the stances. I hope they'll hotfix this asap.

digitalblasphemy

01-09-2009, 12:38 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just for your information:In typical raid MT group STA, Def, Parry are all the time overcapped. There are no any sence to buff it further - it does nothing at all. WIS is also useless at all.Agression? 16 points? Dont make me laugh! Absolutelly useless at all.Only hate gain and base amounts of taunts are make difference - and I have already posted above my point of view on these differences.Guards have nothing dps oriented on D stance at all while zerkers have. FACTAbout hate output of taunts - see my post above. 689 vs 669 hate/s for solo mob is nothing, while 173 vs 347 for group mobs - is 2 times anvantage. Maybe zerkers have problems tanking multimob encounter and need a further boost for it?And do not forget - we talking not about gain/loses compared with current state on live - we talking about difference in stances/taunts and survivability on Test. And berserkes D and O stances and mythic seems to be far more superior compared with guardian ones. Concerning D stances my main point is that agro management is not just taunts, but dps as well. Guards have nothing - zerkers have on both D stance and mythic. And 25% of incoming damage to hate - is not a small portion. FACT.Could you deny that 5% damage absorbtion proc (guard) is much weaker then 5% static combined with 100% AE autoattack (zerker) or static 10% absorbtion + 10% heal (pally)?</blockquote>Whether you are over cap in these stats or not in a raid setting I might add, doesn't mean you can simply brush these differences aside as though they are meaningless. Many people are not over cap, thus they are relevant. To play along with your line of thought, dps mod and haste are also going to be capped as well in the MT group. Therefore zerkers gain nothing. End of story, thank you for coming right!? Right??BERSERKERS DO NOT GAIN ANY DPS IN D STANCE. How much clearer can I spell that out for you. Spells were merged. Spells we already have right now. They didn't add something or pull it out of thin air, they took something we already have, and merged that into the stances. OMG, someone call the whambulance. So I can apply your logic and state that the dps mod and haste do nothing, and are meaningless since I am over cap in a raid without even being in the MT group. That then brings me to, what are you crying about in the first place since it's obvious that being over capped on stats IN A RAID doesn't give any benefit.Berserker O stance has a proc on it on LIVE. The adjustment that was made to the Guardian O stance on TEST is incredible. Double the proc rate, double the dmg, but single target vs aoe targets. And you say that Berserkers have a far superior O stance? If anything the boost you got was on the OP side, since Berserksers are the more offensive class.Finally you bring up a point worthy of discussion. And that is agro management is not just taunts. Voila. This is absolutely correct. Right now dps plays a huge role in holding agro. Now that we have been forced to tank in D stance, guess who comes out the winner?? I'll give you a hint, it's the person who can actually hit the mob. All the taunts in the world will not makeup for not being able to hit the mod, and thus hold hate via dps. In Defensive, my slashing is not even 395, and that's with raid gear. Even in groups, the amount of miss hits is staggering due to not being able to hit the mob, what to speak of orange cons. Guardians on the other hand have their group buff that increases melee skills by 28. That means you will still be hitting the mob more than I will. Oh right, you're probably capped on those stats too, silly me, they must be worthless then. Just because you are capped on something, doesn't mean it's irrelevant or useless.I couldn't give a crap about Mythical differences. That has been beaten to death by hundreds of people for the best part of a year. Guess what, we play different classes, and our Mythicals are different. You didn't say a word when your Mythical was widely regarded as the most OP one of them all. Now that the Guardian one was brought into line, all of a sudden, uh oh, someones got something I don't have. 911, yes hello? I need a whambulance!!So let's address that 25% of incoming dmg as hate towards us, from our Mythical focus effect. Hmm, you do realise that your HTL spell procs at 50% on any incoming dmg right, and a Berserkers procs at 20% on any melee dmg. That's a 30% difference in proc rate, and also the type of dmg done that procs it, on one of our most important spells we have for tanking. And you sit here and tell me that the 25% hate from incoming dmg we have on our Mythical is a problem? So you want a free pass on the +30% increase you currently enjoy on your HTL, yet are crying over the focus effect we have?If you think anyone here after these proposed stance changes is going to replace Guardians as MTs with Berserkers then the joke is on you. The same laugh and snickers that occured when Guards made a feeble attempt at trying to convince people their Mythical was not OP. You don't need to worry. Guardians are still the MT of choice for raiding guilds.

Obadiah

01-09-2009, 01:25 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have nothing dps oriented on D stance at all while zerkers have. FACT</blockquote>OMG, we need dev attention for this. Some of the spells that were merged into the stances actually got merged into the stances. I hope they'll hotfix this asap.</blockquote>ROFL!!!!!Keep in mind, Spetz, that because of this consolidation the berserk proc in defensive stance is LOWER (LESS DPS and Haste) than it is on Live. What you called out as an advantage of the berserker stance over the guardian stance is actually a nerf to berserkers.

Aven Elonis

01-09-2009, 01:25 PM

As a Guardian, I've never expected to be doing a bunch of DPS. I've have played the Guardian as the most Def Mode tank that I can make it. Not withstanding soft caps, hard caps, buckler spec, dual wield etc. and all the other changes (anyone remember LU13 LOL)I also think Zerkers, should be the DPS version of Plate. Guards should never have been able to match them on DPS.I guess in IMHO, Guardians should be 20% more Def then Zerkers in Def Mode, and Zerkers should be 20% more OFF than Gaurdians in OFF Mode. Or maybe 30% (don't get hung up on the number, it is just an idea.)If Gaurdians have X number of Green and Y of Blue AoE arts, then Zerks should have X+1 and Y+1. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do think Guard's Aggro Threat Spells should be at a higher rate than Zerks.Since ToS has come out, I've been waiting for Part 2 of the whole aggro thing, since my DPS dropped, and my aggro spells have been resisted alot it seems to me anyway.I've tanked most of the instances (6 to go yet) some with aggro transfer and some without. Definitely a few more deaths when no aggro buff/transfer. LOL.Waiting to get into TEST so I can evaluate the effects.

Phank

01-09-2009, 02:04 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Emlar_from_Halas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like Jessi said, the fact to loose so much slash skill doesn't give us much freedom unless there's a warden in the group.</blockquote>There's always Stance Mastery.</blockquote>Too bad Stance Masteries dont affect the weapon skills, only the stat buffs.

Obadiah

01-09-2009, 02:14 PM

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Emlar_from_Halas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like Jessi said, the fact to loose so much slash skill doesn't give us much freedom unless there's a warden in the group.</blockquote>There's always Stance Mastery.</blockquote>Too bad Stance Masteries dont affect the weapon skills, only the stat buffs.</blockquote>No, Stance Mastery removes the 22 point Crush/Slash/Pierce penalty in defensive stance - i.e. weapon skills.

Spe

01-09-2009, 02:51 PM

<cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have nothing dps oriented on D stance at all while zerkers have. FACT</blockquote>OMG, we need dev attention for this. Some of the spells that were merged into the stances actually got merged into the stances. I hope they'll hotfix this asap.</blockquote>ROFL!!!!!Keep in mind, Spetz, that because of this consolidation the berserk proc in defensive stance is LOWER (LESS DPS and Haste) than it is on Live. What you called out as an advantage of the berserker stance over the guardian stance is actually a nerf to berserkers.</blockquote>Yes, I know that. But I have pointed on difference in tanking (i.e. agro management abilities) and survivability of guards and zerkers in LU51 environment on test. All you know that guards have weakest damage absorbtion compared to other plate tanks, even zerks - but this in just a minor issue. But tank should not just survive but also keeps mobs on him - and that is my major concern. Zerkers have the same penalty of 0.5 modifier but have a proc for dps increase. If tank dps will be vital component necessery to keep agro - then guards willl be least capable tanks in TSO.

digitalblasphemy

01-09-2009, 03:21 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have nothing dps oriented on D stance at all while zerkers have. FACT</blockquote>OMG, we need dev attention for this. Some of the spells that were merged into the stances actually got merged into the stances. I hope they'll hotfix this asap.</blockquote>ROFL!!!!!Keep in mind, Spetz, that because of this consolidation the berserk proc in defensive stance is LOWER (LESS DPS and Haste) than it is on Live. What you called out as an advantage of the berserker stance over the guardian stance is actually a nerf to berserkers.</blockquote>Yes, I know that. But I have pointed on difference in tanking (i.e. agro management abilities) and survivability of guards and zerkers in LU51 environment on test. All you know that guards have weakest damage absorbtion compared to other plate tanks, even zerks - but this in just a minor issue. But tank should not just survive but also keeps mobs on him - and that is my major concern. Zerkers have the same penalty of 0.5 modifier but have a proc for dps increase. If tank dps will be vital component necessery to keep agro - then guards willl be least capable tanks in TSO.</blockquote>Did you just say that Guards have the worst survivability? Guards have the best survivability for crying out loud lol. You have more hp, more defense/parry, more resists, a stoneskin ability attached to a temp group buff, another stoneskin like ability in TOS, resists to mob control affects on your mythical, and others. I could go on if you like.The proc for dps increase as you call it, is simply dps mod and haste. It's something we've had since this game went live, that's 4 years if you need me to count for you. Not a single soul has ever cried foul about us having this ability. You've only noticed it due to the spell consolidation, which tells me you don't know much about our class at all. So a spell we have now, and have had for years, gets merged onto our stances. Somehow that then becomes OP and unbalaced to you? You fail to realize and recognize that you have a melee skill booster that we don't. We get dps mod and haste, and you get melee skills. All the dps mod and haste in the world does nothing when you can't hit the mob. I challenge you to roll a zerker to lvl 80 and go whack on a mob that's even con or greater, and be appalled at the amount of miss hits. What to speak of the orange con triple up mobs in the harder instances. Forget it, it's far safer to tank in offensive so you can hit the mob and have a better hold on agro, taking more dmg, than being in defensive, with no agro and living longer.In the end both things, dps mod/haste and melee skills in a raid situation often end up capping out, so the differences become nil. But, the one that caps out the quickest due to all the raid wide buffs and chimes from the dirge etc, is dps mod and haste. Heck our raid wide buff was changed from hp incombat regen to dps mod. So there's another 27 dps mod for everyone in the raid. It seems everyone can buff those 2 things nowadays, but not nearly enough classes can buff melee skills. And for tanking in Defensive, melee skills > DA, Crit, haste, dps mod etc. If you can't hit the mob, then what does it matter how high your melee mods are.Ask any raiding Berserker in this game, anyone, you're free to ask, who is an MT or OT why they tank in Offensive Stance. Then you will understand why melee skills > dps mod and haste. Thus meaning you're moaning about something you don't even comprehend or understand.Guardians the least capable tanks in TSO? I'm laughing so hard, someone just looked at me funny.

Bremer

01-09-2009, 03:22 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>All you know that guards have weakest damage absorbtion compared to other plate tanks, even zerks - but this in just a minor issue.</blockquote>Rofl. Seriously, either you have no clue about your class or you act the fool because you except an advantage of it.

Kooli

01-09-2009, 03:34 PM

And let's not even talk about the Guardian's hate management tools of Reinforce, Moderate, etc...My Zerker has always played in Offensive stance for the reasons stated in the above posts. Other tanks had their "special" abilities to keep hate. Zerkers just had DPS.Don't get me wrong...if things are tweaked so that Zerkers can hold aggro in Defensive stance without much issue -- great! It would actually be refreshing to tank in Defensive stance. I could actually see this revamp as a "fix".But I think we might be goin' the opposite direction.

Spe

01-09-2009, 03:36 PM

<cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>All you know that guards have weakest damage absorbtion compared to other plate tanks, even zerks - but this in just a minor issue.</blockquote>Rofl. Seriously, either you have no clue about your class or you act the fool because you except an advantage of it.</blockquote>You insist that 5% proc is better then 5% static on zerker mythic or even better then 10%+10% heal on pally? You call this "advantage"? Or maybe zerker Adrenalin is useless spell?

digitalblasphemy

01-09-2009, 03:58 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>All you know that guards have weakest damage absorbtion compared to other plate tanks, even zerks - but this in just a minor issue.</blockquote>Rofl. Seriously, either you have no clue about your class or you act the fool because you except an advantage of it.</blockquote>You insist that 5% proc is better then 5% static on zerker mythic or even better then 10%+10% heal on pally? You call this "advantage"? Or maybe zerker Adrenalin is useless spell?</blockquote>How does the %5 damage reduction factor into our stance changes? Would you like to clear that up, or are you simply venting, hiding your class envy behind these stance changes?Adrenaline is the Berserker equivalent of Guardians Tower of Stone. They work in different ways and do different things, but in the end, they reduce damage and are our emergency "uh oh" spells.The %5 static damage reduction vs the 5% proc damage reduction has nothing to do with our stances being combined does it. Admit it already. If you got a problem with our Mythicals, go revive and necro an old thread about it. Your group hp buff gives you 1k more hps than a Berserker. Your STA buffs give you additional hps as well. You do realise that Berserkers are one of, if not the only Fighter class that cannot raise their hp!! Let me state that for you again. We cannot raise our hp in anyway shape or form other than gear, temporary potions or food/drink. But you already knew that didn't you, since you know so much about our class.So if we get a damage reduction buff that is static versus one you get on your Mythical that is proc'd, guess what, it's not a secret that Berserkers take more damage, and have less hp than Guardians. Just like Paladins some classes need boosts in different areas, but all you can see is one figure while assuming our classes are equal in all other areas.Open your spell book for petes sake and look at what you do have, instead of crying over what you don't have, instead of perceiving you have been hard done by. Most fighters and other classes were happy for us when we got Adrenaline. Finally we had a tool that gave us some serious tanking ability. Adrenaline didn't make us a better defensive tank than Guardians, but it went a long way in closing the gap, that meant we could tackle and tank things that before only your class could.

Spe

01-09-2009, 04:08 PM

<cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have nothing dps oriented on D stance at all while zerkers have. FACT</blockquote>OMG, we need dev attention for this. Some of the spells that were merged into the stances actually got merged into the stances. I hope they'll hotfix this asap.</blockquote>ROFL!!!!!Keep in mind, Spetz, that because of this consolidation the berserk proc in defensive stance is LOWER (LESS DPS and Haste) than it is on Live. What you called out as an advantage of the berserker stance over the guardian stance is actually a nerf to berserkers.</blockquote>Yes, I know that. But I have pointed on difference in tanking (i.e. agro management abilities) and survivability of guards and zerkers in LU51 environment on test. All you know that guards have weakest damage absorbtion compared to other plate tanks, even zerks - but this in just a minor issue. But tank should not just survive but also keeps mobs on him - and that is my major concern. Zerkers have the same penalty of 0.5 modifier but have a proc for dps increase. If tank dps will be vital component necessery to keep agro - then guards willl be least capable tanks in TSO.</blockquote>Did you just say that Guards have the worst survivability? Guards have the best survivability for crying out loud lol. You have more hp, more defense/parry, more resists, a stoneskin ability attached to a temp group buff, another stoneskin like ability in TOS, resists to mob control affects on your mythical, and others. I could go on if you like.The proc for dps increase as you call it, is simply dps mod and haste. It's something we've had since this game went live, that's 4 years if you need me to count for you. Not a single soul has ever cried foul about us having this ability. You've only noticed it due to the spell consolidation, which tells me you don't know much about our class at all. So a spell we have now, and have had for years, gets merged onto our stances. Somehow that then becomes OP and unbalaced to you? You fail to realize and recognize that you have a melee skill booster that we don't. We get dps mod and haste, and you get melee skills. All the dps mod and haste in the world does nothing when you can't hit the mob. I challenge you to roll a zerker to lvl 80 and go whack on a mob that's even con or greater, and be appalled at the amount of miss hits. What to speak of the orange con triple up mobs in the harder instances. Forget it, it's far safer to tank in offensive so you can hit the mob and have a better hold on agro, taking more dmg, than being in defensive, with no agro and living longer.In the end both things, dps mod/haste and melee skills in a raid situation often end up capping out, so the differences become nil. But, the one that caps out the quickest due to all the raid wide buffs and chimes from the dirge etc, is dps mod and haste. Heck our raid wide buff was changed from hp incombat regen to dps mod. So there's another 27 dps mod for everyone in the raid. It seems everyone can buff those 2 things nowadays, but not nearly enough classes can buff melee skills. And for tanking in Defensive, melee skills > DA, Crit, haste, dps mod etc. If you can't hit the mob, then what does it matter how high your melee mods are.Ask any raiding Berserker in this game, anyone, you're free to ask, who is an MT or OT why they tank in Offensive Stance. Then you will understand why melee skills > dps mod and haste. Thus meaning you're moaning about something you don't even comprehend or understand.Guardians the least capable tanks in TSO? I'm laughing so hard, someone just looked at me funny.</blockquote>Silly zerker... I have pointed on damage absorbtion on mythics - and listed examples. Have you tried to read or just hastly hitting random keys on the keyboard?Do you even know how many skill buffers in MT group? Templar/Warden/Dirge - have you forgot about them? You still think that additional 23 points from guard group buff at about 570 skill makes any difference? Dont make me laugh! Sure you know what difference in hit rate it produce.You have pointed to "more defense/parry" - difference it is nothing at all. More HP? Sure - 1515 HP group buff rocks, but do not forget about 5% static absorb on zerker mythic and Adrenalin 50% absord - it helps a lot. Yes, guards have ToS, reflexes from agi line (zerkers have it too). But can you deny that static damage absorbtion works in a different was and give absolutely different advantages?P.S. And I have played zerker on my current toon as well. So do not try to challenge me to betray again =)P.P.S. Right now in raid I'm sitting at 590 slashing in def stance and 648 in offence. Do we have lack of skills in MT?

Spe

01-09-2009, 04:37 PM

<cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>And let's not even talk about the Guardian's hate management tools of Reinforce, Moderate, etc...My Zerker has always played in Offensive stance for the reasons stated in the above posts. Other tanks had their "special" abilities to keep hate. Zerkers just had DPS.Don't get me wrong...if things are tweaked so that Zerkers can hold aggro in Defensive stance without much issue -- great! It would actually be refreshing to tank in Defensive stance. I could actually see this revamp as a "fix".But I think we might be goin' the opposite direction.</blockquote>Yes. My major concern is upgraded taunts will be enough to keep agro or we need to put some decent dps.In first case it will be easy mode - just hit 1-2-3 and drink coffee playing other game in other window.If we will be required to produce dps to keep agro - then guard will have some problems keeping agro.P.S. Unfortunatelly I can not copy my guard from live server to test these changes - Russians to allowed to frighten westen people on test servers <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So please be constuctive and post real expresions, do not start another holy war =)

digitalblasphemy

01-09-2009, 04:53 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurgan@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guards have nothing dps oriented on D stance at all while zerkers have. FACT</blockquote>OMG, we need dev attention for this. Some of the spells that were merged into the stances actually got merged into the stances. I hope they'll hotfix this asap.</blockquote>ROFL!!!!!Keep in mind, Spetz, that because of this consolidation the berserk proc in defensive stance is LOWER (LESS DPS and Haste) than it is on Live. What you called out as an advantage of the berserker stance over the guardian stance is actually a nerf to berserkers.</blockquote>Yes, I know that. But I have pointed on difference in tanking (i.e. agro management abilities) and survivability of guards and zerkers in LU51 environment on test. All you know that guards have weakest damage absorbtion compared to other plate tanks, even zerks - but this in just a minor issue. But tank should not just survive but also keeps mobs on him - and that is my major concern. Zerkers have the same penalty of 0.5 modifier but have a proc for dps increase. If tank dps will be vital component necessery to keep agro - then guards willl be least capable tanks in TSO.</blockquote>Did you just say that Guards have the worst survivability? Guards have the best survivability for crying out loud lol. You have more hp, more defense/parry, more resists, a stoneskin ability attached to a temp group buff, another stoneskin like ability in TOS, resists to mob control affects on your mythical, and others. I could go on if you like.The proc for dps increase as you call it, is simply dps mod and haste. It's something we've had since this game went live, that's 4 years if you need me to count for you. Not a single soul has ever cried foul about us having this ability. You've only noticed it due to the spell consolidation, which tells me you don't know much about our class at all. So a spell we have now, and have had for years, gets merged onto our stances. Somehow that then becomes OP and unbalaced to you? You fail to realize and recognize that you have a melee skill booster that we don't. We get dps mod and haste, and you get melee skills. All the dps mod and haste in the world does nothing when you can't hit the mob. I challenge you to roll a zerker to lvl 80 and go whack on a mob that's even con or greater, and be appalled at the amount of miss hits. What to speak of the orange con triple up mobs in the harder instances. Forget it, it's far safer to tank in offensive so you can hit the mob and have a better hold on agro, taking more dmg, than being in defensive, with no agro and living longer.In the end both things, dps mod/haste and melee skills in a raid situation often end up capping out, so the differences become nil. But, the one that caps out the quickest due to all the raid wide buffs and chimes from the dirge etc, is dps mod and haste. Heck our raid wide buff was changed from hp incombat regen to dps mod. So there's another 27 dps mod for everyone in the raid. It seems everyone can buff those 2 things nowadays, but not nearly enough classes can buff melee skills. And for tanking in Defensive, melee skills > DA, Crit, haste, dps mod etc. If you can't hit the mob, then what does it matter how high your melee mods are.Ask any raiding Berserker in this game, anyone, you're free to ask, who is an MT or OT why they tank in Offensive Stance. Then you will understand why melee skills > dps mod and haste. Thus meaning you're moaning about something you don't even comprehend or understand.Guardians the least capable tanks in TSO? I'm laughing so hard, someone just looked at me funny.</blockquote>Silly zerker... I have pointed on damage absorbtion on mythics - and listed examples. Have you tried to read or just hastly hitting random keys on the keyboard?Do you even know how many skill buffers in MT group? Templar/Warden/Dirge - have you forgot about them? You still think that additional 23 points from guard group buff at about 570 skill makes any difference? Dont make me laugh! Sure you know what difference in hit rate it produce.You have pointed to "more defense/parry" - difference it is nothing at all. More HP? Sure - 1515 HP group buff rocks, but do not forget about 5% static absorb on zerker mythic and Adrenalin 50% absord - it helps a lot. Yes, guards have ToS, reflexes from agi line (zerkers have it too). But can you deny that static damage absorbtion works in a different was and give absolutely different advantages?P.S. And I have played zerker on my current toon as well. So do not try to challenge me to betray again =)</blockquote>You havn't done jack in convincing anyone of why our Mythical focus affects are related to our stances being combined. After your previous statement, "All you know that guards have weakest damage absorbtion compared to other plate tanks, even zerks", whose going to take anything you say seriously. You just shot yourself in the foot and are bleeding everywhere.No doubt in that group makeup, your melee skills will be maxed. But guess what chump, so will your dps mod & haste from your group and raidwide buffs. It's 28 points in melee skills actually, and not 23 and I'm not even a guard to know your M1 gives that. So what exactly are you complaining about then? Your crying that you don't have the dps mod and haste zerkers have on their d stance. Yet you don't acknowledge the fact we've had it as separate buff for 4 years. This hasn't been added to D stance, it's been combined with a buff we already have. Another fact is this 25 dps/haste is only a proc, that when it procs lasts 10secs. It's not a static buff of 25 dps/haste.That is what you are complaining about isn't it. A 10sec proc that buffs 25 dps/haste. Yet failing to acknowledge that you will be capped in these things along with your capped melee skills.You're attempting and failing miserably in trying to drudge up some sympathy as though Guardians are hard done by. They aren't and no ones buying it. Guards are still the best defensive tanks in the game. Classic how you tried to paint Adrenaline as the most OP spell in existance, disregarding that it strips us of 50% of our power on termination. It only works if we are Berserk. So we need to proc something before we can even use it. Never mind that the mod is beating us to a pulp, we gotta ask the mob to take 5, have a cup of tea, wait for Beserk to proc, then we can click it. And then if Berserk drops, Adrenaline does as well. Nevermind that the spell description says it works for 30secs. It doesn't. If Berserk drops 2secs after Adrenaline has been cast, then we lose Adrenaline, and get 0 benefit from the spell. So it's not static, in fact countless threads and topics have been made on how unrealiable this spell is. But then you nonchalanty downplay the significance of ToS, as though it's something of little use. Guardians don't carry about 20 tower shields for a spell that isn't worth it.

digitalblasphemy

01-09-2009, 04:59 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>And let's not even talk about the Guardian's hate management tools of Reinforce, Moderate, etc...My Zerker has always played in Offensive stance for the reasons stated in the above posts. Other tanks had their "special" abilities to keep hate. Zerkers just had DPS.Don't get me wrong...if things are tweaked so that Zerkers can hold aggro in Defensive stance without much issue -- great! It would actually be refreshing to tank in Defensive stance. I could actually see this revamp as a "fix".But I think we might be goin' the opposite direction.</blockquote>Yes. My major concern is upgraded taunts will be enough to keep agro or we need to put some decent dps.In first case it will be easy mode - just hit 1-2-3 and drink coffee playing other game in other window.If we will be required to produce dps to keep agro - then guard will have some problems keeping agro.P.S. Unfortunatelly I can not copy my guard from live server to test these changes - Russians to allowed to frighten westen people on test servers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> So please be constuctive and post real expresions, do not start another holy war =)</blockquote>How exactly is a proc of 10sec duration for 25 dps/haste mod going to increase your dps when you will be capped in both these stats?

Mentalep

01-09-2009, 05:10 PM

I'm a guardian, and I agree that mythical weapon stats have absolutely nothing to do with this update. Suggesting that 24 classes should all have their spells, buffs and combat arts balanced around one level 80 high-end raid weapon is only going to make things worse for everyone.If there's a problem with the mythicals, fix it by changing the mythicals, not the classes that use them.I don't have a mythical weapon. I probably never will. Does that mean that my situation is irrelevant when discussing game balance?

Spe

01-09-2009, 05:19 PM

<cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>And let's not even talk about the Guardian's hate management tools of Reinforce, Moderate, etc...My Zerker has always played in Offensive stance for the reasons stated in the above posts. Other tanks had their "special" abilities to keep hate. Zerkers just had DPS.Don't get me wrong...if things are tweaked so that Zerkers can hold aggro in Defensive stance without much issue -- great! It would actually be refreshing to tank in Defensive stance. I could actually see this revamp as a "fix".But I think we might be goin' the opposite direction.</blockquote>Yes. My major concern is upgraded taunts will be enough to keep agro or we need to put some decent dps.In first case it will be easy mode - just hit 1-2-3 and drink coffee playing other game in other window.If we will be required to produce dps to keep agro - then guard will have some problems keeping agro.P.S. Unfortunatelly I can not copy my guard from live server to test these changes - Russians to allowed to frighten westen people on test servers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> So please be constuctive and post real expresions, do not start another holy war =)</blockquote>How exactly is a proc of 10sec duration for 25 dps/haste mod going to increase your dps when you will be capped in both these stats?</blockquote>Capped? Right now I'm in raid - 103 haste and 147 dps mod. Is this look like capped? May be you played too much as zerker with your single and group buffs for dps/haste. Guards are not capped at these stats.

Elanjar

01-09-2009, 06:24 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite>...</blockquote>...</blockquote>Capped? Right now I'm in raid - 103 haste and 147 dps mod. Is this look like capped? May be you played too much as zerker with your single and group buffs for dps/haste. Guards are not capped at these stats.</blockquote>Would you stop quoting raid stats. There are a lot of players that arent Raid MT. Were comparing classes. Not classes buffed by other classes.

Maroger

01-09-2009, 06:33 PM

<cite>Elanjar@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite>...</blockquote>...</blockquote>Capped? Right now I'm in raid - 103 haste and 147 dps mod. Is this look like capped? May be you played too much as zerker with your single and group buffs for dps/haste. Guards are not capped at these stats.</blockquote>Would you stop quoting raid stats. There are a lot of players that arent Raid MT. Were comparing classes. Not classes buffed by other classes.</blockquote>I am beginning to think these changes were all about Raiding and all the other playstayles they didn't care about them. After all with TSO they are pushing raiding big time -- sort of like EQlive. What did we do get some developers with an EQlive mindset??

digitalblasphemy

01-09-2009, 06:46 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>And let's not even talk about the Guardian's hate management tools of Reinforce, Moderate, etc...My Zerker has always played in Offensive stance for the reasons stated in the above posts. Other tanks had their "special" abilities to keep hate. Zerkers just had DPS.Don't get me wrong...if things are tweaked so that Zerkers can hold aggro in Defensive stance without much issue -- great! It would actually be refreshing to tank in Defensive stance. I could actually see this revamp as a "fix".But I think we might be goin' the opposite direction.</blockquote>Yes. My major concern is upgraded taunts will be enough to keep agro or we need to put some decent dps.In first case it will be easy mode - just hit 1-2-3 and drink coffee playing other game in other window.If we will be required to produce dps to keep agro - then guard will have some problems keeping agro.P.S. Unfortunatelly I can not copy my guard from live server to test these changes - Russians to allowed to frighten westen people on test servers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> So please be constuctive and post real expresions, do not start another holy war =)</blockquote>How exactly is a proc of 10sec duration for 25 dps/haste mod going to increase your dps when you will be capped in both these stats?</blockquote>Capped? Right now I'm in raid - 103 haste and 147 dps mod. Is this look like capped? May be you played too much as zerker with your single and group buffs for dps/haste. Guards are not capped at these stats.</blockquote>Correction, YOU are not capped in these stats. Nevermind that your haste and dps mod are low for an MT in a raid. Nevermind that I know plenty of Guardians who are capped in these stats. You're arguing that since you can cap out in a stat, it's useless. That's utter stupidity. That doesn't take in account solo players, groups players, and even people in raids who do not get the speciliased buff treatment.Every class in this game in a raid setting can cap out in certain stats, some more than others. Just because you can cap out in a stat, doesn't make it then trivial or not worth your while. It's there for a reason.Since I know Guardians who can cap out in dps/haste mod on raids, how are you affected by a Berserker having these mods on their D stance? If they can do it, so can you. You just might have to work for it, and not expect to have it put in front of you on a gold platter.

Spe

01-09-2009, 07:36 PM

<cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>And let's not even talk about the Guardian's hate management tools of Reinforce, Moderate, etc...My Zerker has always played in Offensive stance for the reasons stated in the above posts. Other tanks had their "special" abilities to keep hate. Zerkers just had DPS.Don't get me wrong...if things are tweaked so that Zerkers can hold aggro in Defensive stance without much issue -- great! It would actually be refreshing to tank in Defensive stance. I could actually see this revamp as a "fix".But I think we might be goin' the opposite direction.</blockquote>Yes. My major concern is upgraded taunts will be enough to keep agro or we need to put some decent dps.In first case it will be easy mode - just hit 1-2-3 and drink coffee playing other game in other window.If we will be required to produce dps to keep agro - then guard will have some problems keeping agro.P.S. Unfortunatelly I can not copy my guard from live server to test these changes - Russians to allowed to frighten westen people on test servers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> So please be constuctive and post real expresions, do not start another holy war =)</blockquote>How exactly is a proc of 10sec duration for 25 dps/haste mod going to increase your dps when you will be capped in both these stats?</blockquote>Capped? Right now I'm in raid - 103 haste and 147 dps mod. Is this look like capped? May be you played too much as zerker with your single and group buffs for dps/haste. Guards are not capped at these stats.</blockquote>Correction, YOU are not capped in these stats. Nevermind that your haste and dps mod are low for an MT in a raid. Nevermind that I know plenty of Guardians who are capped in these stats. You're arguing that since you can cap out in a stat, it's useless. That's utter stupidity. That doesn't take in account solo players, groups players, and even people in raids who do not get the speciliased buff treatment.Every class in this game in a raid setting can cap out in certain stats, some more than others. Just because you can cap out in a stat, doesn't make it then trivial or not worth your while. It's there for a reason.Since I know Guardians who can cap out in dps/haste mod on raids, how are you affected by a Berserker having these mods on their D stance? If they can do it, so can you. You just might have to work for it, and not expect to have it put in front of you on a gold platter.</blockquote>These stats can be capped for sure. Put monk and zerker in raid, coercer in MT, gear up to cap these stats. But zerkers can reach caps much more easily, while guardian have to do something additional sacrifising survivability. I have to use haste gloves to have some more haste, while in totally defensive mode I have to switch to TSO set. And lost 38 haste. When I was zerker haste and dps mode was the last thing I care. But guardian is, say, a bit more dependable on haste/dps buffs in his group while zerker not. This is the reality and it not going to be changed in LU51.And about guardian mythic nerf - it was nerfed as a first part of the fighter balance. We lost a lot of double while tanking with the shield - and changes to sta line was great for zerkers, who gain a lot from this change. Guardian was granted with the useless proc for CC immunity, but in reality on Venril or Byzola I see no difference at all - same walking around in fear as before. Guardian mythic weapon now is least powerfull of all other tank mythics. I have already mentioned above about these differences in mythic. Guardians lost a lot, while all other tanks gain benefits. And guard are still the class without agro proc on mythic, no DPS proc on mythic, just a survivability PROC, while other tanks have STATIC survivability options. So a guardian mythic need to be changed, at least to have some agro generation abilities and survivability will be desitable as well. Guards should be on par with other classes, not "we have no that, we have no that".Now we have come to second phase of fighter rebalance and now is the proper time to tune up guardian mythic and tune up defensive stance to match mythic specifics.

digitalblasphemy

01-10-2009, 01:49 AM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>digitalblasphemy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kooli wrote:</cite><blockquote>And let's not even talk about the Guardian's hate management tools of Reinforce, Moderate, etc...My Zerker has always played in Offensive stance for the reasons stated in the above posts. Other tanks had their "special" abilities to keep hate. Zerkers just had DPS.Don't get me wrong...if things are tweaked so that Zerkers can hold aggro in Defensive stance without much issue -- great! It would actually be refreshing to tank in Defensive stance. I could actually see this revamp as a "fix".But I think we might be goin' the opposite direction.</blockquote>Yes. My major concern is upgraded taunts will be enough to keep agro or we need to put some decent dps.In first case it will be easy mode - just hit 1-2-3 and drink coffee playing other game in other window.If we will be required to produce dps to keep agro - then guard will have some problems keeping agro.P.S. Unfortunatelly I can not copy my guard from live server to test these changes - Russians to allowed to frighten westen people on test servers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> So please be constuctive and post real expresions, do not start another holy war =)</blockquote>How exactly is a proc of 10sec duration for 25 dps/haste mod going to increase your dps when you will be capped in both these stats?</blockquote>Capped? Right now I'm in raid - 103 haste and 147 dps mod. Is this look like capped? May be you played too much as zerker with your single and group buffs for dps/haste. Guards are not capped at these stats.</blockquote>Correction, YOU are not capped in these stats. Nevermind that your haste and dps mod are low for an MT in a raid. Nevermind that I know plenty of Guardians who are capped in these stats. You're arguing that since you can cap out in a stat, it's useless. That's utter stupidity. That doesn't take in account solo players, groups players, and even people in raids who do not get the speciliased buff treatment.Every class in this game in a raid setting can cap out in certain stats, some more than others. Just because you can cap out in a stat, doesn't make it then trivial or not worth your while. It's there for a reason.Since I know Guardians who can cap out in dps/haste mod on raids, how are you affected by a Berserker having these mods on their D stance? If they can do it, so can you. You just might have to work for it, and not expect to have it put in front of you on a gold platter.</blockquote>These stats can be capped for sure. Put monk and zerker in raid, coercer in MT, gear up to cap these stats. But zerkers can reach caps much more easily, while guardian have to do something additional sacrifising survivability. I have to use haste gloves to have some more haste, while in totally defensive mode I have to switch to TSO set. And lost 38 haste. When I was zerker haste and dps mode was the last thing I care. But guardian is, say, a bit more dependable on haste/dps buffs in his group while zerker not. This is the reality and it not going to be changed in LU51.And about guardian mythic nerf - it was nerfed as a first part of the fighter balance. We lost a lot of double while tanking with the shield - and changes to sta line was great for zerkers, who gain a lot from this change. Guardian was granted with the useless proc for CC immunity, but in reality on Venril or Byzola I see no difference at all - same walking around in fear as before. Guardian mythic weapon now is least powerfull of all other tank mythics. I have already mentioned above about these differences in mythic. Guardians lost a lot, while all other tanks gain benefits. And guard are still the class without agro proc on mythic, no DPS proc on mythic, just a survivability PROC, while other tanks have STATIC survivability options. So a guardian mythic need to be changed, at least to have some agro generation abilities and survivability will be desitable as well. Guards should be on par with other classes, not "we have no that, we have no that".Now we have come to second phase of fighter rebalance and now is the proper time to tune up guardian mythic and tune up defensive stance to match mythic specifics.</blockquote>So what if a Berserker can reach the cap more easily than a Guardian. You've already addmitted that a Guardian can cap out in a raid, so that means it can't be that hard can it. Are you even thinking what are saying here? That's like me saying a Wizard can cap INT easier than a Guardian, or a Templar can cap WIS easier than a Guardian. Of course they can, as each class has their strenghts and weaknesses. A monk can cap their haste more than their dps mod, when a bruiser can cap their dps mod more than their haste. Are you that dense that you don't realise that each class has attributes that are different from others? Omg, call the whambulance again, you have to sacrifice something in order to gain something else. The nerve of soe to do such a thing. That's life, we all have to deal with this situation in trading various stats for others.You are crying about something that is at the core of our classes. You have more hp, defense and other DEFENSIVE stats (I don't give a crap if you can cap them in a raid), it's a fact. And a Berserker has more OFFENSIVE stats that can also be capped in a raid. So what. That is working as intended. Just like a Wizard having more INT, or a Templar having more WIS. Berserkers have more haste/dps than Guardians, but you have more HP +defense/+parry and other defensive attributes. You cannot have one and cry about not having the other.I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR MYTHICAL. If you want to address things on your Mythical, then open a new topic, or continue an already existing one. Your Mythical has nothing to do with our stances being merged. Now you're even bringing in AA lines and others things. I don't care, it's not relevant to our stances being changed. You cannot actually believe that anyone is going to care or take you seriously if you try and put forward the position that Guardians are meak, Guardians are horrible classes to play, that cannot tank anything, that have been nerfed into oblivion. The facts speak for themselves. Guards are still MT in most raiding guilds I know. No one replaced them with another fighter class.

Spe

01-10-2009, 01:10 PM

Mr. Nobody from Nowhere. If you do not know something - it means nothing. There are at least 1 guild in WW top cleared TotMC with the zerker and pally (without guard, you know). So you can understand, what you can do with your smart guesses about replacement of guards with zerkers and MTs?If you can not say anything constructive - just shut up and move along. If you happy with your zerker mythic - do the same. Nobody cares zerker thought here. If the only thing you can do here is to start another holy war - just move along. This is the thread for guardians complains, not zerkers blah-blah-blah.Just for you, maybe you need things to be repeated more then one time just to feel the flavor and another time just to start to understand:1) Zerker D stance have offensive component, while guard one have no. Zerker-Guard 1:0. (And do not forget about zerker group buff - it still in place).2) The 6 at about 530-540 points difference in defensive parameters just negligeable. 6 additional point in raid gives less then one tenth of percent difference. No difference in raid environment at all. Solo farming not a subject for discussion here. Its started by raid MTs for developers to bring guardian thoughts to devs.3) Guardian D stance have 8% base taunts and 8% hate gain. Zerkers have 16% in total. Base taunts applicable to taunts only, while hate gain applicable to all generated agro. The balance between taunts/dps agro generation not clear yet, but base taunts in raid evironment can be buffed3) Guardian mythic have no agro generation abilities attached. Zerker have. 2:0.4) Guardian mythic have no static damage absorbtion abilities - just proc for 5% for 12 seconds 2.4 a minute. It was nerfed from 10% in the first round of fighter rebalancing. Zerkers have static 5% with attached 100% frontal AE autoattack (yes, the last part this is zerker specifics to tank multiple mobs, so it can not be considered as difference here). But 5% absorbtion for about 1/2 of the time vs 100% of time is direct disadvantage. Zerker 3:0. Please note, that damage absorbtion is completelly different from any defencive stats related to avoidance.5) As I have stated above - single target agro generation of zerker about the same as guardian, while group agro generation is about 2 times weaker.This is the list of major disadvantages of guardian compared to zerker in its current state on Test. And this is the list of issues devs should pay some attention.

victer

01-10-2009, 05:36 PM

Before it keeps escalating i dont think its been pointed out.<ul><li>Zerker D stance = 8% static and 8% proc hate gain</li><li>Gaurd D stance = 8% static hate gain and 8% static +taunts.</li></ul>This is not fair? I beg to differ.<ol><li>Have we forgot that taunts crit now and that taunt numbers are doubled? Meaning that +taunts = awsome.</li><li>Have we forgot that zerkers have to proc 1/2 thier hate and gaurds get it all the time?</li><li>Have we forgot that hate mod does not work with taunting anymore? It only generates agro from your dps.</li><li>Have we forgot that both stances have a % to taunt on being attacked where gaurds are 50% of ANY dammage and zerkers are 20% of melle attacks only? That is a huge difference in advantage to gaurds (and it should be).</li></ol>The only thing i would like to see removed from the stances are EITHER the -0.5 melle modifier OR the negative to melee skills. If they remove either of those then i would be happy and say we are ready to go.The D stances are fair in the fact that defensively and for the sake of tanking the gaurdian D stance is better then the zerker D stance.Now lets look at the offensive skills. Zerkers should win on the offensive side right? Wrong.The offensive stance is NOT fair.<ul><li>Zerker O stance = 500point hit encounter based proc that procs 2.7 times per min</li><li>Gaurd O stance = 1100point hit proc that procs 4.7 times per min</li></ul>This is fair? I beg to differProcs are a huge source of DPS in this game. Why does the defensive cousin to the zerker have a proc that is double the dammage AND double the proc?Gaurds SHOULD get a proc on thier O stance. And it should be EITHER double the zerker dammage OR double the zerker proc chance to make up for the fact that zerkers proc is to the encounter. NOT BOTH!!!

victer

01-10-2009, 06:00 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>3) Guardian D stance have 8% base taunts and 8% hate gain. Zerkers have 16% in total. Base taunts applicable to taunts only, while hate gain applicable to all generated agro.</blockquote>Wrong. Read the patch notes. And read my post above.

Spe

01-10-2009, 07:16 PM

Victor, please read my posts above - some of your concerns are covered and my point of view are explained.And I see no use for offencive stance in their current state for tanks in raids at all, so I just ignore them. If zerkers want to dps in offensive - not a problem for me. I'm raid MT and care only about defensive stance and tanking mobs.All my post relates to defencive stance and defensive and abilities of mythics. Guard is the tank, not dps.

victer

01-10-2009, 07:24 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Victor, please read my posts above - some of your concerns are covered and my point of view is explaned.</blockquote>i did.I see a gaurd complaining zerkers dps more in d stance.What i said is that you have better tools for defensive/agro properties in your D stance then we do. And im fine with that.What im not fine with is the overpowered proc that gaurds have on thier offensive stance reletive to zerkers.Not overpowered? Name any item or proc in the game that has 1000point hit @ 4.7 times per min. There isnt any.

Spe

01-10-2009, 08:03 PM

<cite>Victer@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Victor, please read my posts above - some of your concerns are covered and my point of view is explaned.</blockquote>i did.I see a gaurd complaining zerkers dps more in d stance.What i said is that you have better tools for defensive/agro properties in your D stance then we do. And im fine with that.What im not fine with is the overpowered proc that gaurds have on thier offensive stance reletive to zerkers.Not overpowered? Name any item or proc in the game that has 1000point hit @ 4.7 times per min. There isnt any.</blockquote>I dont care at all if this proc will be removed - there are no use of the offensive stance for guard. May be you have missed a mythic issues - this is much more unbalanced thing for tank. Zerker mythic is far more superior then guardian one, and not from dps point of view, but from defensive and agro generation part as well.

victer

01-10-2009, 08:45 PM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont care at all if this proc will be removed - there are no use of the offensive stance for guard. May be you have missed a mythic issues - this is much more unbalanced thing for tank. Zerker mythic is far more superior then guardian one, and not from dps point of view, but from defensive and agro generation part as well.</blockquote>Ok then I advise you to look at the title of the thread. This is not about mythicals.But if you really wanna go there then my only question is ... Do you see the advantages of not being controlled by mods the majority of the time? Or hell even half the time? Do you not see the advantages there is to not being stunned/feared/blahblah while you are tanking? You have a very good chance to continue to taunt/dps/protect yourself/possition/blahblah mobs while im waiting for the uncureable effect to run its course and pray the mob stays on me and where i want it every single time.The effect that they added to your weapon was ONLY seen from drops off of avatars for a reason.And no the gaurds DO need some sort of proc on thier offensive stance. I do not wish to see it totally vanish.Here are your choices:<ul><li>1000 single target dammage on the same proc rate as zerker (2.7)</li><li>500 single target proc with a proc rate of 4.7 per min.</li></ul>Choose one. Right now you essentially have both. And that is not fair.

forge32

01-10-2009, 11:19 PM

Server decided to copy the post sry for double post.

forge32

01-10-2009, 11:22 PM

Same as on beta i see a thread made to discuss guards issues / concerns being derailed by zerks.Grabbing some popcorn this really should be interesting on round 2.Difference is now the zerks are whinning again bout whats fair.Aeralik stated your defense stance has alot of what you had before the spells where combined.Same goes for guard spells as well. Alot of the things you are whinning about we had allready pre the combine.So if we need to deal with the fact you have more hate tools on your defensive stance adding in your mythical on top. Then you can deal with us haveing a better proc on our offensive stance that guess what not many guards will ever have the opertunity to even use.We Tank 100 % of the time how often do guards not tank ,and just there to dps?Stop the crying all ready it is foolish.Far as the immunity proc goes it is not up the majority of the time, before you post a false claim on that proc betray on test and check it out your self how usefull it really is and how often it procs when actually needed.I am a raid tank i have the mythical and i notice no difference what so ever tanking vp trash in tso compared to rok with that proc.So yet again that is a clueless statement.

Spe

01-11-2009, 01:35 AM

Yes, leave offensive stance to zerkers, add 100% melee crit, 100% DA, 100% flury, 100% PBAE to it- I do not care.As guardian I see no use for offensive stance anywhere - no raid environment, no group. Soloing with a guardian? Roll a wizard or necro for that!But give us a real protective mythic and D stance and provide them with good hate generation options (mainly mythic) - that all what we need.

Noaani

01-11-2009, 01:50 AM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, leave offensive stance to zerkers, add 100% melee crit, 100% DA, 100% flury, 100% PBAE to it- I do not care.As guardian I see no use for offensive stance anywhere - no raid environment, no group. Soloing with a guardian? Roll a wizard or necro for that!But give us a real protective mythic and D stance and provide them with good hate generation options (mainly mythic) - that all what we need.</blockquote>The fighter off stance is meant for when you are in a group or raid but are not tanking. That is a rare case for a guardian, but happens on occasion.The fact that you won't use it means nothing more than the fact that you can save yourself a few plat with the next level cap increase.

Spe

01-11-2009, 02:04 AM

Guardian in group and not tanking? Very interesting.Yes! I know! This is when you questing with the guardian AF you wizard like I leveled my toon?But seriously - yes, there are one zone where second guardian or zerker or other fighter can use offensive - it is trash in PotAO. But who cares about parse numbers of the dpsing OT?

Noaani

01-11-2009, 02:14 AM

<cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardian in group and not tanking? Very interesting.Yes! I know! This is when you questing with the guardian AF you wizard like I leveled my toon?But seriously - yes, there are one zone where second guardian or zerker or other fighter can use offensive - it is trash in PotAO. But who cares about parse numbers of the dpsing OT?</blockquote>Your still only thinking about raids. Stop it.They gave fighters an off stance to that they can do a bit more DPS when not tanking. In order to allow them to do that extra DPS, they needed to make sure it wouldn't be used while tanking. Since guardians are fighters, they got an off stance.Understand?

Maroger

01-11-2009, 02:23 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spetz@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Guardian in group and not tanking? Very interesting.Yes! I know! This is when you questing with the guardian AF you wizard like I leveled my toon?But seriously - yes, there are one zone where second guardian or zerker or other fighter can use offensive - it is trash in PotAO. But who cares about parse numbers of the dpsing OT?</blockquote>Your still only thinking about raids. Stop it.They gave fighters an off stance to that they can do a bit more DPS when not tanking. In order to allow them to do that extra DPS, they needed to make sure it wouldn't be used while tanking. Since guardians are fighters, they got an off stance.Understand?</blockquote>They would be better off making these changes by enhancing the taunt line and improving AA. These changes should go into the AA lines for the classes. The idea should be always to give players a chance to cutomize their character according to their playstyle. This changed limits choice and is really only for the raiding crowd. They need to look at other ways to accomplish the same goal withouth removing buffs and choices from players.

Noaani

01-11-2009, 02:29 AM

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote>They would be better off making these changes by enhancing the taunt line and improving AA. These changes should go into the AA lines for the classes. The idea should be always to give players a chance to cutomize their character according to their playstyle. This changed limits choice and is really only for the raiding crowd. They need to look at other ways to accomplish the same goal withouth removing buffs and choices from players.</blockquote>Its really only for the grouping and raiding crowd you mean.Solo plate tanks are probably going to end up soloing with no stance on. IMO this is a good thing for them, because it saves them some coin.Choices are all good, especially in a game like this. The problem is when players have the ability to chose both high DPS and high survivability, as is the case on live. In my opinion, tanks have more of a choice with whats on test than whats on live, as on live there are very few times a tank will not be running every single buff he has, and then one of his two stances. On test, you run all your buffs and then either one of your two stances or no stance.

Uncaged

01-11-2009, 02:52 AM

<cite>beerfest wrote:</cite><blockquote>hasnt the guards got nerfed enough yet?</blockquote>You think you got screwed? Hop on over to some of the SK threads. They spend four years as the worst tank only to get a month of makeup changes to get screwed again. Sigh.... Well I guess I can either deal with lameness or try another broken class.

victer

01-11-2009, 03:30 AM

<cite>forge32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Difference is now the zerks are whinning again bout whats fair.Aeralik stated your defense stance has alot of what you had before the spells where combined.Same goes for guard spells as well. Alot of the things you are whinning about we had allready pre the combine.</blockquote>slow down there big guy and read my post again. I pointed out why the gaurdian Dstance > zerker Dstance. And i also said im cool with gaurd haveing a more defensive Dstance.What im not cool with is a dps proc that is more powerful then any proc that ive seen on any item/skill. The problem is its a big proc with a ridiculas proc chance.And btw this is only 1 guy talking. Im not the zerker community jumping down your neck.Im just a guy thats trying to point out that the OP of this thread missed that gaurds also has a static 8% to thier taunts while zerkers have that proced 8% hate mod. And that with the changes to how hate mod works with taunts and taunt crits and taunt numbers being doubled means that +to taunts is very nice now.Awsome! Your Dstance should totally be > then zerkers. But then the zerker Ostance should be > yours and its not looking that way.

forge32

01-11-2009, 05:03 AM

<cite>Uncaged wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>beerfest wrote:</cite><blockquote>hasnt the guards got nerfed enough yet?</blockquote>You think you got screwed? Hop on over to some of the SK threads. They spend four years as the worst tank only to get a month of makeup changes to get screwed again. Sigh.... Well I guess I can either deal with lameness or try another broken class.</blockquote>This is a joke right?

Ashdaren

01-11-2009, 06:22 AM

<cite>Uncaged wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>beerfest wrote:</cite><blockquote>hasnt the guards got nerfed enough yet?</blockquote>You think you got screwed? Hop on over to some of the SK threads. They spend four years as the worst tank only to get a month of makeup changes to get screwed again. Sigh.... Well I guess I can either deal with lameness or try another broken class.</blockquote>So true, If i hear again "oh no the tank is a sk we can't go there" or "now we need a real tank, ask channel plz", i quit for good

forge32

01-11-2009, 06:30 AM

Bye .You are truely over exagerating.

Ashdaren

01-11-2009, 06:43 AM

<cite>forge32 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bye .You are truely over exagerating.</blockquote>Lol I played a bruiser from beta then a SK from EoF, any fellow brawler or crusader have heard this comments too often.

Harvash

01-11-2009, 02:36 PM

I understand that this thread is about stances - the good, bad and ugly. However, I simply cannot understand why everyone is using toilet paper roll focus on it.Good Grief, comparing the stances between 2 obviously different classes - without considering the OTHER tools is just ridiculous.They combined buffs, so what. Guards cry about dps on said buffs. Ok, how about your +weapons skills, how bout the single point reinforce buff, how bout moderate!Oh noes, someones class does something mine doesn't!! How bout you examine YOUR class, consider how the changes effect YOUR class and then make suggestions on that info about YOUR class./sigh ... this crap happens once year whether we want to or not...great job sony.BTW, Templar heals > than my Inquisy heals - NERF, plzkkthnksG.

Terron

01-11-2009, 09:50 PM

Some guards do solo more than they tank, and some times guards are in groups when not tanking (like yesterday when I was grouped with a bruiser with t8 raid gear and his mythical - I have T8 legendary/T7 fabled and my fabled epic (and Thuuga ring).