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Aeralik
01-07-2009, 06:23 PM
<p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate and should have the tools to do that.</p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary you go play one on test copy and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p>

Aull
01-07-2009, 06:29 PM
<p>Thanks for information on this change with us Aeralik.</p>

Wilin
01-07-2009, 06:40 PM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show</p></blockquote><p>How soon? Today soon? Tomorrow soon? Or Soon(TM)?</p>

Freliant
01-07-2009, 06:42 PM
<p>Update goes in on January 12 to Test and will be on live by second week of Feb.... if all goes well.</p>

Goaldan
01-07-2009, 06:47 PM
<p>Looks like test is getting patched today, actually:</p><p><a href="http://patch.everquest2.com:7010/patch/eq2/motd/en/updates_test.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://patch.everquest2.com:7010/pa...dates_test.html</a></p>

shadowedwolf
01-07-2009, 06:55 PM
<p>For the moment I'll push the annoyance I have aside and pray that I can actually get my Pally to copy correctly to test when this goes live so I can give constructive feedback... but... there is one GLARING question that comes to mind...</p><p>Is it being implemented so that the adept 3 I have for amends now will still be all and well and just turn into an adept 3 taunt... or am I going to get hosed and have to spend anotehr eternity harvesting in hopes for a loam? (RND hates me when it comes to rares.) I ask because it's not like the icon shift for heel cut and the swashy root so you could tell them apart.... I mean, this is a complete spell change and inquirning minds... like the Pally's in my guild I just told this about... are curious..</p>

Mahgnus
01-07-2009, 07:09 PM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate and should have the tools to do that.</p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary you go play one on test copy and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p></blockquote><p>So Pallies are now the Sk's of EoF and the Brusiers of RoK. Woot!</p>

Ashtar
01-07-2009, 07:23 PM
<p>I'm guessing more like a lower DPS SK basically. I'll reserve further comment until I can see it on test. For now, its not lookin good.</p><p>Vak</p>

Mahgnus
01-07-2009, 07:27 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm guessing more like a lower DPS SK basically. I'll reserve further comment until I can see it on test. For now, its not lookin good.</p><p>Vak</p></blockquote><p>Without the utility / buffs and reason to be in raid</p>

Prrasha
01-07-2009, 07:30 PM
<p>I've read the patch notes.</p><p>...so where is the paladin's <strong>passive</strong> hate generation now?</p><p>The other three plate tanks all have a "when hit by mob, proc hate" or "when hit by mob, proc hate and damage" ability, so they can generate hate even when stunned.</p><p>Without that, the number of mobs (including non-raid, non-named mobs) that have incurable stuns and stifles and fears and detargets is going to make life very intersting for our healers, as they'll be tanking the first 5 seconds of any encounter if the mob opens with those abilities, and we're unable to do ANYTHING to gain hate.  (Granted, we can get always-on Fear immunity if we take the otherwise-lame Wisdom AA line.  Still doesn't help with other incurable control effects.)</p><p>Unless you're really amping up the heal amount (or hate gained by) our ward spell, or putting Sigil on a timer where it can be used on literally every pull, tanking as a Paladin is going to become much more Not Fun (TM).  Moreso for the rest of the group than for the paladin, unfortunately.</p>

Mahgnus
01-07-2009, 07:32 PM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate and should have the tools to do that.</p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary you go play one on test copy and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Next time you get a chance to log on, /join channel crushbone.paladinsforright</p>

Prrasha
01-07-2009, 07:40 PM
<p>(Separate post since it's a different subject, to keep reply threads seggregated)</p><p>In general, it looks like we lost a pile of hate generation ability (Amends <em>was</em> huge, after all)... but the previous Paladin's place in the plate-tank balance has been "the weakest in DPS, the weakest in defense, but top of the heap in aggro control".</p><p>If you're hacking down our aggro control ability, <em>what do we get in return</em>?  It's not like Pallies were a flavor-of-the-month class that needed to be cut down to size... Guards are still MT for the majority of raid guilds, and pallies and zerkers and guards seemed to be equally represented among offtanks.  SK's got their long-deserved boost with the TSO patch to bring them up to speed.</p><p>So will future GU51-related patch notes be giving paladins more DPS, or more survivability?  Because I see less DPS (proc damage moved into offensive stance), a ton less aggro control, and no change in survivability.  In fact, I see guardians <em>gaining</em> hate abilities on <em>their</em> defensive stance that they didn't have before (and a new proc on their offensive stance), and every tank is getting the extra taunts added to their combat arts.  Unless the patch notes are incomplete, Paladins are really getting the once-over, here.  What exactly did we do to deserve it?  How were we overpowered across the board before?</p><p>(I think I'll be happy when the guild's SK gets to 80... Prrasha's gonna be tradeskill-only the way things look.  Guess I'll be flavor-of-the-month like everyone else and play my level 80 Illusionist as my main... or maybe my 78 Templar...)</p>

Stonestrong
01-07-2009, 07:51 PM
<p>Grats on screwing up class balancing again Aeralik. Shadowknights are honestly better than us already this expansion so now I guess nerfing Amends is just one of the nails in the coffin. If you can't use a Paladin in a make shift tank group through amends, whats the point of even bringing them on raids? I mean Shadowknights can do more dps and have better aggro at this point. Do you even have a clue whats going on around you or is it just like playing pin the tail on the donkey with a blindfolfd on and hoping you get close to its [Removed for Content]?</p>

Feneant
01-07-2009, 07:54 PM
<p>So how exactly are we to keep agro if Amends becomes nothing but a new taunt?</p><p>Have you perhaps given thought to oh... you know, letting us do DPS that isn't half of what other tank classes can do? </p><p>You have effectively killed the paladin class by making us a poor tank with poor healing skill and negligible dps.</p>

Kaarim
01-07-2009, 08:13 PM
<p><cite>Feneant wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So how exactly are we to keep agro if Amends becomes nothing but a new taunt?</p><p>Have you perhaps given thought to oh... you know, letting us do DPS that isn't half of what other tank classes can do? </p><p>You have effectively killed the paladin class by making us a poor tank with poor healing skill and negligible dps.</p></blockquote><p>No fighter will be able to hold aggro in offensive stance now, offensive stance has dehate on it. They are actually taking away DPS to hold hate and giving more hate to fighter in defensive stance so fighters are only plainly responsible for hate. There are no more hate feeds/transfers from my understanding...so aggro rest solely upon the fighter player. DPS isn't going to hold aggro anymore like it use to...so this is actually a good thing. Hate is also becoming parseable.</p><p>DPS is down the ladder for fighters now.</p>

Freliant
01-07-2009, 08:18 PM
<p>Wow... such love... Have any of you that are complaining already tested out the changes? In another post I already mentioned that I will not pass judgement until I see the new changes in action. The paladin essentially could stand still and still keep agro, which is something none of the other tanks could do. They are being brought in line like all the other classes have been at one point or another. Remember the Guardian and their mythical... well, we warned you from then that amends was going to be changed, and here it is. Along with the rest of us, you should take things in stride and test them out before passing judgement.</p>

Freliant
01-07-2009, 08:41 PM
<p><cite>Stonestrong wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Wow... such love... Have any of you that are complaining already tested out the changes? In another post I already mentioned that I will not pass judgement until I see the new changes in action. The paladin essentially could stand still and still keep agro, which is something none of the other tanks could do. They are being brought in line like all the other classes have been at one point or another. Remember the Guardian and their mythical... well, we warned you from then that amends was going to be changed, and here it is. Along with the rest of us, you should take things in stride and test them out before passing judgement.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for telling us how we should feel about changed to our class. I have an idea for you, try pulling your head out of your [Removed for Content]....</p></blockquote><p>I tried but you seem to like dwelling there more than me.</p><p>Anyways, I stand behind what I said. Test out the changes like we did with our changes, and then comment. "an idiot is one who responds without knowing the situation." -</p>

Stonestrong
01-07-2009, 08:41 PM
<p>Amends is being changed to rescue with a shorter timer, I have seen it on test. Anything else you care to get owned arguing about?</p>

Freliant
01-07-2009, 08:45 PM
<p>Rescue is on a 5 min timer, which can be reduced to 2:30 with AA. What is the taunt amount of the new amends and what is the reuse on it?</p><p>Also, you have already grouped and seen it in action? That is very surprizing. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You don't have all the info yet, nor do you represent the entire paladin community.</p>

Zapat
01-07-2009, 08:51 PM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate and should have the tools to do that.</p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary you go play one on test copy and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p></blockquote><p>YAY...NERFAGE....YAY!!!</p><p>.....DUDE, [Removed for Content]!!!  its bad enough that a bard, some guy who plays banjo, can hit harder than us Pallys who actually wield a sword to make a living... we cant mitigate damage as well as other tanks... and now u wanna screw with our aggro holding ability...</p><p>i dont know what u have against us... did we outtank ur Guardian and/or Zerker (possibly SK) at some point that u havent forgiven us since?...</p><p>...and every expansion that comes out seems to cater to other classes besides us, and all we've done was sit back pleasantly and just watch everyone else get better while we unknowingly awaited our nerfing.</p><p>...well i guess i (and other Paladins im sure) are gonna have to go to the guild unemployment line because we were replaced by another plate tank!</p>

Bookbunny
01-07-2009, 09:00 PM
<p>Looks good so far, I'm eager to try things out on test.  We knew Amends was getting changed weeks ago so I have made my peace and found the good in that change - now I will be solely responsible for my hate and not dependant on (possibly) uninformed and less-than-stellar dps classes to do my job for me.  More power to me = good thing.</p><p>I am curious about the Master I issue, for example I have Righteous Weapon and Blessing of the Paladin at Master I, but only the Ad3 of my defensive stance so what gives when they are combined?  I also have Amends M1 and hope it remains so when it's effect is changed.</p><p>Love the additional taunt on kick and circle lines, also the initial tick for our taunt instead of taunt over time will be very helpful.  Blinding rays casting more often will also mean more divine debuffs. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /> </p><p>For those worried about stun/stifles and other effects on the pull, I strongly recommend working for the TSO AA Aura of the Crusader.  It will dispel any Stun, Stifle, Daze, Fear, Root and Taunt currently effecting you and make you immune to that effect.  While it may not be up on every pull if you are pulling fast I find it is up every other, and with voice chat you can tell your healers to cure in those zones where you know such effects are coming.  Cured off and you are free to taunt to your hearts content.</p><p>In short I love my paladin and am not willing to let any changes ruin it for me.  I will test and feedback as much as possible but if something goes in that I dislike I will adjust and learn to incorporate it in order to continue loving my class.  I hope my fellow paladins are willing to do the same and we won't become the dying breed!</p>

Pathin Merrithay
01-07-2009, 09:06 PM
<p><cite>Bookbunny wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For those worried about stun/stifles and other effects on the pull, I strongly recommend working for the TSO AA Aura of the Crusader.  It will dispel any Stun, Stifle, Daze, Fear, Root and Taunt currently effecting you and make you immune to that effect.  While it may not be up on every pull if you are pulling fast I find it is up every other, and with voice chat you can tell your healers to cure in those zones where you know such effects are coming.  Cured off and you are free to taunt to your hearts content.</p></blockquote><p>Clearly you haven't tanked, let's say at random, Atrebe's, where Aura doesn't work because the effect is uncurable. It's actually funny how MANY of those listed effects above are uncurables that aura can't get rid of.</p><p>Dying breed? With this change, Paladins are dead.</p>

Prrasha
01-07-2009, 09:07 PM
<p><cite>Bookbunny wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For those worried about stun/stifles and other effects on the pull, I strongly recommend working for the TSO AA Aura of the Crusader.  It will dispel any Stun, Stifle, Daze, Fear, Root and Taunt currently effecting you and make you immune to that effect.  While it may not be up on every pull if you are pulling fast I find it is up every other, and with voice chat you can tell your healers to cure in those zones where you know such effects are coming.  Cured off and you are free to taunt to your hearts content.</p></blockquote><p>If you were replying to me (I assume you were since I'm the only one who brought it up)...</p><p>1) How does this help the lower-level paladin without the 131 AA to get Aura?  We do tank before level 80...</p><p>2) I was more worried about INCURABLE (greyed-out icon in the group bar) control effects which we just have to ride out... with no passive hate gain at all.</p>

Bookbunny
01-07-2009, 09:17 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bookbunny wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For those worried about stun/stifles and other effects on the pull, I strongly recommend working for the TSO AA Aura of the Crusader.  It will dispel any Stun, Stifle, Daze, Fear, Root and Taunt currently effecting you and make you immune to that effect.  While it may not be up on every pull if you are pulling fast I find it is up every other, and with voice chat you can tell your healers to cure in those zones where you know such effects are coming.  Cured off and you are free to taunt to your hearts content.</p></blockquote><p>Clearly you haven't tanked, let's say at random, Atrebe's, where Aura doesn't work because the effect is uncurable. It's actually funny how MANY of those listed effects above are uncurables that aura can't get rid of.</p><p>Dying breed? With this change, Paladins are dead.</p></blockquote><p>3 piece set for Shard Armor gives you hate everytime you are hit if you want another example of possible workaround.  Naturally you will find mobs that are the exception but that is in fact what makes fights differ from one another and bring interest to each encounter.  Standard group in standard zone the pally will be fine, raids will make adjustments but as many have stated we weren't the preferred tank for those fights to begin with.  If you wish to continue depending on your groupmates for hate simply ask the Swash to use Sleight of Hand on you.</p><p>My paladin will remain alive and well as I adjust to an evolving world.</p>

Bookbunny
01-07-2009, 09:19 PM
<p><cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bookbunny wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For those worried about stun/stifles and other effects on the pull, I strongly recommend working for the TSO AA Aura of the Crusader.  It will dispel any Stun, Stifle, Daze, Fear, Root and Taunt currently effecting you and make you immune to that effect.  While it may not be up on every pull if you are pulling fast I find it is up every other, and with voice chat you can tell your healers to cure in those zones where you know such effects are coming.  Cured off and you are free to taunt to your hearts content.</p></blockquote><p>If you were replying to me (I assume you were since I'm the only one who brought it up)...</p><p>1) How does this help the lower-level paladin without the 131 AA to get Aura?  We do tank before level 80...</p><p>2) I was more worried about INCURABLE (greyed-out icon in the group bar) control effects which we just have to ride out... with no passive hate gain at all.</p></blockquote><p>Valid, let's discuss how to help lower tier paladins maintain hate while stunned.  Can they?  If not we need to feedback and get it changed.  If so let's make the adjustments or /delete and redraw to gaurdian.</p><p>Unfortunately I can't test lower tiers as my only pally is level 80, unless there is a way to de-level on test?  Would be cool if we could for situations as this.</p><p>**Edited cause my original reply was in the quote box, not a big forum poster.</p>

Prrasha
01-07-2009, 09:19 PM
<p>Edit #2: OK, the fully AA'ed tank-spec skills have also been posted on Flames (thanks, Boli).  Lots of bigger numbers.  5K-10K on everything (again, fully AA'ed.)</p><p>Not sure about raid, especially considering the amount of pure autoattack damage a raid tank does (and the nerf to that on the defensive stance), but I'm not a raider.  But for single-group tanking, the pally looks O.K. from a pure hate-over-time perspective.</p><p><strong><em>However</em></strong>, if the other 3 plate tanks have similar taunt numbers attached to their skills, it <strong><em>still</em></strong> leaves paladins at the bottom of the heap due to their innately lower DPS and innately lower defensive ability, coupled with our now-equal aggro control.</p><p>And further, we are the only tank with no passive hate control.  The Guardian got a version of our Holy Weapon line (proc on melee hits) added to their offensive stance.  Why did paladins not get a version of their defensive proc-hate-when hit buff added to their defensive stance?  We used to have 4 plate tanks, each with their own form of passive hate gain.  Now we have three with and one without; Paladins got no passive gain to replace Amends.</p><p>And third, someone said Shadowknights picked up a Parry bonus on their defensive stance.  Paladins coud certainly use a bit of that love, too, if true, since they're now the only tank who doesn't get that (rather important) buff.  If the line is "but paladins get shield abilities instead", then make those shield abilities base, or make everyone else buy their parry with AA.</p>

jovocopski2
01-07-2009, 09:23 PM
<p>Um, you all felt this change was needed? ha. Ever think back to gu 15 or w/e it was where you nerfed our dps to heck. If you make these changes and i should say when you make these changes, because everytime i had feedback to you and your dev community it has been ignored or the changes never implemented with so much as a personal thank you, you had better be changing this class in dramatic form back to what it once was. A self healing tank is not supposed to be self sustainable? Think about it. UP our dps back to even par with other plate tanks and still allow us to heal and use divine powers to be the difference makers a paladins are supposed to be. I have allways played a paladin, since eq1, and i have swallowed the nasty changes to this class along the way. If you make the changes to this ability think long and hard about the decision you decide, and how it would be the best to represent a holy warrior. If you make this class a useless class that cant tank, heal or dps you will end up loosing a lot of your fans. dont make that mistake, some of us enjoy this game still. I would never play any other class. If you are askin yourself ...well it sounds like this guy wants a class that can do everything....BINGO. Thats what this class has done for years, even less over time thats to your inginuity. Keep this class at the forefront on a fun class to play...please.</p><p>P.S. if you need a class to change that you think needs to be toned down.....hmmmm NECRO MAYBE</p>

Prrasha
01-07-2009, 09:26 PM
<p><cite>Bookbunny wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Valid, let's discuss how to help lower tier paladins maintain hate while stunned.  Can they?  If not we need to feedback and get it changed.  If so let's make the adjustments or /delete and redraw to gaurdian.</p><p>Unfortunately I can't test lower tiers as my only pally is level 80, unless there is a way to de-level on test?  Would be cool if we could for situations as this.</p><p>**Edited cause my original reply was in the quote box, not a big forum poster.</p></blockquote><p>Well, you can self-nerf if you want to test it.</p><p>Mentor down to, say, level 70, and head for Unrest, or maybe Valdoon's.</p><p>Don't use Holy Ground, since that's a new line after 70th level.  All other spells are available.</p><p>Respec your AA, but only spend 80-100 points (which is generous, I had to work my tuchis off to get my relatively-new Templar to have 100 AA when she hit 70th level.)</p><p>If you've got TSO armor with the hate proc, ditch it and wear other stuff.  If you can get back into your Kyle Bayle's, use it... else maybe 72 Mastercrafted?   (I've kept my Bayle's for mentoring purposes... don't want it re-dropping if I'm helping guildies thru the late 60s.)</p><p>Have fun!  You'll still be much more capable than a "real" level 70 pally, but it'll be closer.</p>

QuaiCon
01-07-2009, 09:31 PM
<p>amends was overpowered, but what else had a pally?</p><p>our heals are so small that they lost all their use long ago, we got no passive aggro gain, we got no way to temprary buff our mitigation/defense.</p><p>so now that amends is gone are these points getting adressed too?</p>

Bookbunny
01-07-2009, 09:37 PM
<p>Thanks Prrasha I will definately try it.  I'm not trying to [Removed for Content] off the [Removed for Content] off paladins, as I said I love my class and want to continue loving it but I don't feel that ditching my paladin is an option so lets find the best ideas we can to offer up to the devs.</p><p>One possible idea to the mid-tier passive aggression could be that some taunts could be cast while stunned/stifled?  Are there other spells in the game that aren't greyed out during these effects that we could mirror?  If you know ahead of time that a mob is going to stun on the pull you can use Sigil but I think that is not until 52... and in zones like Crucible there are several mobs that fear and it happens a lot during the fight so again it wouldn't work every time.</p>

Kalvarin
01-07-2009, 09:48 PM
<p><img src="http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/Amends.jpg" width="311" height="430" /></p><p>Amends on Test. It's nice that we can M2 it, and the "2629 -3213" is very sizable as a passive when stunned/stifled/etc on the initial pull. My only concern really is that it's a level 49 spell. I guess level 80 Paladin's 400+ Aggression should help, but I don't want to see this resisted everytime I use it.</p><p>This coin does have a positive side; I was really getting upset with PU groups with Amended targets who went AFK or suddenly dropped in DPS, becuase it looked bad on me that I was losing aggro - the majority of my aggro was determined by someone else who could mess up. Likewise, I don't have to switch Amends from my ridiculously well-geared Warlock and Wizard raid-mates when switching between single and multi-target bosses. If the AE taunt timer is down substantially enough, we may be able to hold AE aggro relatively well too (albeit not with DPS, since SOE seems to believe Paladins should be second only to Priests in terms of worst DPS..</p>

Pathin Merrithay
01-07-2009, 09:56 PM
<p><cite>Kalvarin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This coin does have a positive side; I was really getting upset with PU groups with Amended targets who went AFK or suddenly dropped in DPS, becuase it looked bad on me that I was losing aggro - the majority of my aggro was determined by someone else who could mess up. Likewise, I don't have to switch Amends from my ridiculously well-geared Warlock and Wizard raid-mates when switching between single and multi-target bosses. If the AE taunt timer is down substantially enough, we may be able to hold AE aggro relatively well too (albeit not with DPS, since SOE seems to believe Paladins should be second only to Priests in terms of worst DPS..</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I get really upset too when I'm not paying attention. If someone AFK's and you still have Amends on them, put it on someone else. If DPS starts to slack, run ACT and pay attention to it once in a while and switch where needed. </p>

Boli32
01-07-2009, 09:56 PM
<p><span ><strong>Aeralik</strong></span> If you ignore every post on this forum; and scim past everythign else... just ask yurself ONE question.</p><p>"Given the changes to the paladin class... what possible reason could you give to bring a paladin onto a raid given that we are offically now bottom in single target and multiple target hate generation, low down on the scale on pure defence and dead last in dps and utility"</p><p>Answers on a poscard; and if you say enhance the healing pwoer on a raid then may I point you towards the templar class.</p>

Aeralik
01-07-2009, 10:07 PM
<p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p>

Santi Dominiti
01-07-2009, 10:15 PM
<p>Then give us a valid reason for the change.. Saying Paladin's are not an AoE tank is stupid. We have what 8 AEs???You are changing things atm for no reason or purpose. And they are not little changes they are a complete over haul of the class.  have looked at your changes and they are not for the better. So explain to us what is the point of these changes, other than the fact that you some how believe Paladin's are a single target tank.</p><p>On the bright side I am happy that you are actully taking the time to read the posts and for that I will remain civil.</p>

Pathin Merrithay
01-07-2009, 10:42 PM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p></blockquote><p>You removed the last bastion of Paladin tanking, replacing it with a mediocre taunt with no real justifiable reason. Paladins are dead last among fighters in DPS. In survivability. In utility. Our heals stopped being useful 5 expansions ago. We have no Bloodletter. We have no rotating Defensive/Mit buffs like fighters. Paladins now bring nothing worthwhile to the table. I'm happy to be civil if you can actually explain your actions. If you did this change without actually examinign the big picture... Then frankly, you deserve some harsh criticism.</p>

Troubor
01-07-2009, 11:01 PM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p></blockquote><p>Going to edit this to be more civil.  Still will be quite blunt though.</p><p>Okay, you say you're open to feedback.  Wonderful.  Will it be the usual "Okay, developer posts for two or three pages in a thread, then all comments are ignored" sort of feedback?  I do hope not.  I also hope that you will see negative comments, no matter HOW worded as being valid and not just people "going ballistic".  I'll admit I haven't gone onto TEST server, I don't have anyone there currently.  This may finally prompt me to download TEST and also do a /testcopy.  But that doesn't mean that every negative post is a spammed reactionary post.  I'll admit my own post has no constructive critique of the changes past "based on how I understand it so far, I dislike it, and I see nothing to compensate for the changes".  But I think you'll find a lot of the posts you're dismissing as spam or "going ballistic" might have some legit critique, even if the wording itself is less then civil.</p><p>Okay, maybe I just got more wordy instead of more civil.  But I'll stick with this reply.</p>

Boli32
01-07-2009, 11:15 PM
<p>Oh... I saw the adjustments; what you have done is take away a HUGE agro capability.. reguardless of whether people thought it was overpowered or not; it was changed because we were being changed into single target tanks. and replaced with... a taunt... not just any taunt... but a pretty weak taunt.</p><p>As for constructive critism remember that say we were amending a 10k dpser... which woudl net us 4,100 hate A SECOND it is a huge drop to what you consider to be a "very powerful ability"... we already hit things with a 6s delay...leaving us huge gaps in our agro control.. it is not consistant at all... it is WHAM we hit... then nothing.. and then WHAM we hit again.</p><p>Honestly... if we were going to have to live with these threat numbers can we have it changed to it is maintained CONSTANT threat.</p><p>i.e. we cast it upon the mob... it last for 1min and recast is 1min and generates threat per second on us with maybe the CHANCE for us to "proc" +1 hate increase over the course of that min (tho I'm not to bothered about that) so the paladin gets the constant threat and hate generation that would be sorely lacking in the class as it stand where we would survive from one swing to the next. Even if it was changed to 320-500 threat per second that woudl give us the base line consistant threat we desire; and not the boom and bust threat mechanics of dps spikes and threat position increasors.</p><p><img src="http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/krysla_havenlight/taunts.jpg" width="936" height="884" /></p>

Detor
01-07-2009, 11:30 PM
<p>Seems to me like the biggest loss you guys take in the Amend change is in AoE encounters with it on an AoE leaning class like a warlock.  The new replacement Amends is single target only, so you completely lose out on the encounter hate that amends previously provided.  Anybody know what they changed your encounter taunt reuse timer to?</p>

Santi Dominiti
01-07-2009, 11:32 PM
<p>imo the stances are dumb... changing our taunts into deaggros when id say 99% of us tank instances in off stance is pretty pointless and more annoying than anything. Get rid of that and I can live with the 10% hate gain reduction on the off stance as a penalty for tanking in off stance.</p><p>Def stance im assuming the .5 reduction to dmg on our main hand means 50% which will kill our dps and in doing do kill our main source of hate.. our mythical.. lower that amount to something more realistic and I guess since your bent on doing all of these dumb changes I can live with it.</p><p>Our uber new super taunt to replace amends!! I cant seem to find where it is at? Our new ability is a joke compared to what amends was. Like what Boli posted give us something that is contant hate not ever 4 sec. And until I see what the t8 stats are I wont comment on that but imo make it a M2 choice k thanks.</p><p>Have Fun fixing what you broke...</p>

Troubor
01-07-2009, 11:52 PM
<p>Well, that does answer one thing, I'll need a tier 8 loam it seems...good thing my alchemist has a couple saved up for an alt when he levels.</p><p>As an aside, will the tier 8 "amends" be a master II choice?  Makes me almost wonder if that should be taken now, and then get a master I of Clairon.  I guess we'll see.</p>

Boli32
01-07-2009, 11:56 PM
<p>It is not the M2 choice.</p>

Full_Metal_Mage
01-08-2009, 12:02 AM
<p><cite>Santi Dominiti wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Then give us a valid reason for the change.. Saying Paladin's are not an AoE tank is stupid. We have what 8 AEs???You are changing things atm for no reason or purpose. And they are not little changes they are a complete over haul of the class.  have looked at your changes and they are not for the better. So explain to us what is the point of these changes, other than the fact that you some how believe Paladin's are a single target tank.</p><p>On the bright side I am happy that you are actully taking the time to read the posts and for that I will remain civil.</p></blockquote><p>Last I heard there are no Paladins in Aeralik's raids. That's why. Don't forget, he's the same guy that got caught telling his guildmates it was okay to use exploits.</p>

Troubor
01-08-2009, 12:11 AM
<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>It is not the M2 choice.</p></blockquote><p>Good to know...again back to making an adept III of the tier 8 Amends then, and seeing how much I have to farm for the tier 8 Amends, Master I.  Thanks for your replies so far about this.</p><p>As an aside, it just seems odd...we're losing some AOE tanking ability, POSSIBLY gaining some single target tanking ability...but yet not getting enough single target IMO to compensate.  The overall net effect does seem to be to make us weaker overall.  I just have to ask (knowing our wonderful developer won't answer)..well..why? </p><p>Anyway, again maybe I should just /testcopy and go from there finally.  Make sure I have a tier 8 loam in my inventory, or see if I can copy both my main and my alchemist over.  But regardless if I do or not, at least for now..my question is "why?".  Not the reasons given on the surface, but the real reasons..why?</p>

Kirstie
01-08-2009, 12:14 AM
<p><cite>Troubor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Going to edit this to be more civil.  Still will be quite blunt though.</p><p>Okay, you say you're open to feedback.  Wonderful.  Will it be the usual "Okay, developer posts for two or three pages in a thread, then all comments are ignored" sort of feedback?  I do hope not.  I also hope that you will see negative comments, no matter HOW worded as being valid and not just people "going ballistic".</p></blockquote><p>I know that with big changes people often really want to be heard.  And devs can't answer every post in a thread, especially the long ones.</p><p>So I wanted to take this chance to remind people of their direct line of communication with devs on the Test server.  Every time you submit /feedback from either Test server I can guaranttee that it is read by several people who are on the EQII team (including me).</p><p>We read them regardless of their content or how long they get.  And even though we don't usually give a personal response, the feedback we get shapes the decisions we make on current and future projects.</p><p>So please keep using the forums to discuss and we'll keep reading.  But if you want to get special attention, the feedback from the Test servers is the best way to wave a flag at us.</p><p>- Kirstie</p>

Dreyco
01-08-2009, 12:14 AM
<p>Actually, my Paladin has no problem with the change.  AE Agro isn't going to be as easy as it was, i'll have to work a little bit harder at it, but i'll be able to keep agro with relative ease with that thing.  Look at the recast.. less than a minute? Wow.</p>

Yaegermister
01-08-2009, 12:50 AM
<p>hopeiung for a useful dev response here</p><p>i hope everyone gets a free aa reset for this</p><p>second with these changes u really really need to think about letting us have more then two specs with this change ona pvp server i now need a pvp hope i hold tank spec  a dps stance for when im not needed tanking and a pvp tanking spec</p><p>i understand pvp isnt a big deal to u guys but it needs to be looked out cause now i cant combined 2 specs into one and settle with a hodgepodge of stuff</p><p>third  are u going to make us on par dps wise with sk's  or can we sit there and pretend to be worthwhile when we arent tanking</p>

Stonestrong
01-08-2009, 12:57 AM
<p>The whole point is if you are actually going to spend some to addressing our class why not do something positive? You have Shadowknights completely overpowered atm and are they losing anything? It's not like we are top of the pack for fighters so why do we need a nerf, or change as you call it?</p><p>Please address this with your explanation of the balance between Paladin and Shadowknight, cause I would love to hear that sir.....</p>

Dasein
01-08-2009, 01:30 AM
<p>The change to Amends really isn't that big of an issue - with the Shadow AA lines, Paladins get some decent agro generating abilities, and combined with Holy Ground and Sigil of Heroism, can keep up some sort of big agro-generating ability pretty much non-stop. Further, the agro meter will make it easier for other classes to know when they're getting close to ripping, and with good communication, will allow players to better time big agro abilities to conincide with spike DPS agro.</p><p>However, these changes seem to blur the lines between the tanking classes, and thus Paladins no longer stand out in any one area. Paladins do not have much of an identity right now - we do not do anything better than any other tank class, and that makes us pretty much useless in most situations. Really, I tihnk this change highlights the inability of the game to support 6 viable tank classes, so I doubt there is a viable solution to the problem, save to make all the tank classes more like each other, such that in the end, we have 1 class with 6 different names.</p>

Troubor
01-08-2009, 01:44 AM
<p><cite>Kirstie wrote, I reply within her reply in <span style="color: #ff0000;">red</span>:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Troubor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Going to edit this to be more civil.  Still will be quite blunt though.</p><p>Okay, you say you're open to feedback.  Wonderful.  Will it be the usual "Okay, developer posts for two or three pages in a thread, then all comments are ignored" sort of feedback?  I do hope not.  I also hope that you will see negative comments, no matter HOW worded as being valid and not just people "going ballistic".</p></blockquote><p>I know that with big changes people often really want to be heard.  And devs can't answer every post in a thread, especially the long ones.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(I'm not asking for a reply to every single comment.  What I am asking for is that a developer will keep active within a thread, and not just stop replying and basically ignore it after two or three pages.  Despite your claims, I have seen what at least seems to be the case MANY times over with a thread like this.  Posting for a few pages and then ignoring the thread as if it doesn't exist won't instil confidence that people are being heard, regardless of if they are also posting /feedback on TEST or not)</span></p><p>So I wanted to take this chance to remind people of their direct line of communication with devs on the Test server.  Every time you submit /feedback from either Test server I can guaranttee that it is read by several people who are on the EQII team (including me).  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(That's wonderful.  That still ignores my comment you replied to.  I've seen what I described, or at least what seemed to be the case time and again.  Should I find specific threads where let's say a major quest or subquest was broken for months on end, and after a couple pages we got no replies?  Maybe I am just irritated with these changes still, but I have seen this in the past.  I don't demand that people reply to each and every comment, despite your claims.  I do at least request if not demand that the developers or at least the one who is responsible for this wonderful change keep reading in the thread, and keep replying on average about once per page, if nothing else to reassure us that things are being read.)</span></p><p>We read them regardless of their content or how long they get.  And even though we don't usually give a personal response, the feedback we get shapes the decisions we make on current and future projects.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(Again if this is the case, then why does it quite often IMO a majority of the time feel otherwise?  With the possible exception of Domino, the tradeskill developer I really don't feel like anyone listens past a token reply with this game)</span></p><p>So please keep using the forums to discuss and we'll keep reading.  But if you want to get special attention, the feedback from the Test servers is the best way to wave a flag at us.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(And again, I am not asking for special attention.  That is putting words into my mouth, or I guess in this case post.  If you want your players to keep faith that the developers aren't just making arbitary changes and then mostly ignoring input, keep up with communication)</span></p><p>- Kirstie</p></blockquote><p> As an addendum to this, with regards to feedback, either here or in TEST via the /feedback command, IMO I think we'll see the following:</p><p>1)  Any comments, no matter how well thought out to restore things to something at least similar to how they were before GU51:  Ignored.</p><p>2)  Any comments, no matter how well thought out to compensate in some way and/or at least do something to keep the Paladin class unique compared to other tanks:  Ignored</p><p>3)  Any comments, regardless of if they are well thought out or not that support this change, and at most only suggest minor tweaks:  Considered.</p><p>So, in that sense unless we're more or less agreeable with the changes, IMO what point is feedback?  Yes I'll still be vocal in the very faint hope it's considered, but again my faith with regards to being listened to is overall pretty low.</p>

Goaldan
01-08-2009, 02:23 AM
<p>This could be due to my not playing a tank very often, but I'm not sure if the detaunting on the offensive stance is a good idea.  Wouldn't this basically mean your off-tank in a raid can't use either stance?</p>

Pitt Hammerfi
01-08-2009, 02:34 AM
<p>Awesome changes, thanks Aeralik <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Elad
01-08-2009, 02:40 AM
<p>I am curious how the combining of penitent and blessed weapon lines will reflect the master status. For example I have Masters of Blessing of the Paladin, Righteous Weapon, and Bayle's stance, but the adept 3 version of Wrath Stance ( Those lower level T8 spells 71-74 still do not drop much). So after combining Righteous Weapon (Master) with Wrath Stance (Adept 3) do I lose a master and end up with just an Adept 3? This means I lose the plat I spent (not a small sum either) to buy those 2 masters of Blessing of the Penitent and Righteous Weapon.</p>

Kiljoi
01-08-2009, 02:58 AM
<p>I really find it terrible that you would fundamentally change a class defining skill this long after launch.  This really changes the gameplay for me.  Yes I understand your trying to balance tanks etc, but to effectively make us single target tanks is to put us in the MT role where guardians are preferred.  I enjoyed the paladins all these years for their ability to face many and succeed by amending an AOE class with the flexibility to deagro a dps'r.  To do this to us changes how we play our classes after all these years, this is a major change.  I'm frustrated and saddened to by this and truthfully dumbfounded.  I've never been so angered in regards to a game as I am now.  I find this ridiculous and shameful.  If I wanted to excell at tanking a single target, I would have kept my guardian.  Its like I'm being forced to take major steps back in what I have accomplished on my toon to get back to playing my role in a raid, for instance - loosing my mythical, masters, patterns by betraying.</p><p>Kiljoi</p>

Troubor
01-08-2009, 03:08 AM
<p><cite>Elad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am curious how the combining of penitent and blessed weapon lines will reflect the master status. For example I have Masters of Blessing of the Paladin, Righteous Weapon, and Bayle's stance, but the adept 3 version of Wrath Stance ( Those lower level T8 spells 71-74 still do not drop much). So after combining Righteous Weapon (Master) with Wrath Stance (Adept 3) do I lose a master and end up with just an Adept 3? This means I lose the plat I spent (not a small sum either) to buy those 2 masters of Blessing of the Penitent and Righteous Weapon.</p></blockquote><p>I know I'm being negative, but I think it's best to assume a worst case scenario, and assume that your new version of the stance will be at the lower of the two skill tiers.  I of course don't know, but I'm pretty sure this will be the case.</p>

Niou
01-08-2009, 03:17 AM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate and should have the tools to do that.</p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary you go play one on test copy and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Anybody in agreement with the changes made either do not know their class, or are simply naive. These changes are all fun and games when in instances, but that only lasts so long. Exp is being increased time and again and you will reach lvl 80 before you know it. When you do, you can either raid or start over. When you Raid, you'll quickly gain knowledge of how these changes have been detrimental to the Paladin class.</p><p>It's not about how MUCH hate we have, its about the TYPE of hate. It doesn't matter if Amends is a "really powerful taunt", its single target, which means we have been relegated to tanking the same mob's that Guardian's must without being given the tools to do so at all.</p><p>You may be able to distract the low level paladins with garbage about how great hate is and how we're in control of it now, but the reality is simple, you've changed paladins from ae tanks into single target tanks and have given them NO ability's with which to take the damage that is going to result from the hate from that "really incredible taunt."</p>

Full_Metal_Mage
01-08-2009, 03:21 AM
<p><cite>Kirstie wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Troubor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Going to edit this to be more civil.  Still will be quite blunt though.</p><p>Okay, you say you're open to feedback.  Wonderful.  Will it be the usual "Okay, developer posts for two or three pages in a thread, then all comments are ignored" sort of feedback?  I do hope not.  I also hope that you will see negative comments, no matter HOW worded as being valid and not just people "going ballistic".</p></blockquote><p>I know that with big changes people often really want to be heard.  And devs can't answer every post in a thread, especially the long ones.</p><p>So I wanted to take this chance to remind people of their direct line of communication with devs on the Test server.  Every time you submit /feedback from either Test server I can guaranttee that it is read by several people who are on the EQII team (including me).</p><p>We read them regardless of their content or how long they get.  And even though we don't usually give a personal response, the feedback we get shapes the decisions we make on current and future projects.</p><p>So please keep using the forums to discuss and we'll keep reading.  But if you want to get special attention, the feedback from the Test servers is the best way to wave a flag at us.</p><p>- Kirstie</p></blockquote><p>So how long does it take for /testcopy add to work? I'm waiting to give you my Test feedback. Or is /testcopy running on the same professionally managed codebase as the character transfer service.</p>

Pathin Merrithay
01-08-2009, 03:48 AM
<p><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually, my Paladin has no problem with the change.  AE Agro isn't going to be as easy as it was, i'll have to work a little bit harder at it, but i'll be able to keep agro with relative ease with that thing.  Look at the recast.. less than a minute? Wow.</p></blockquote><p>Not directed at you individually, but because this is as good a quote as any to use:</p><p>I'll /copy my Wiz over to test. If any paladin can keep mobs off him now through an instance I'll come back here and say I was totally wrong with one caveat; If you have to use a Trak Sheild to do it, it doesn't count. I'll even remove any single one of my items to make it fair. (Personally, I now think the Trak Sheild is about the only way tanks are going to hold solid agro in high end DPS groups now)</p><p>I don't think it can be done any longer. I'm dreading raids with the horrific nerf to troub de-hate as well. And the sad thing? Not only is this a Pally nerf, but a nerf to all DPS classes. This is no longer a matter of controlling your hate. It's a matter of hitting a hard cap of DPS set by fighters, a hard cap that with the transfer nerfs will be shockingly easy to get to. All DPS classes will be forced to scale way back. Mobs die slower, zones take longer, and frankly... You begin the long trail towards utter DPS mediocrity where everyone does the same damage all the time.</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 04:52 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not only is this a Pally nerf, but a nerf to all DPS classes. This is no longer a matter of controlling your hate. It's a matter of hitting a hard cap of DPS set by fighters, a hard cap that with the transfer nerfs will be shockingly easy to get to. All DPS classes will be forced to scale way back. Mobs die slower, zones take longer, and frankly... You begin the long trail towards utter DPS mediocrity where everyone does the same damage all the time.</p></blockquote><p>I think this is really the issue; this systematic change to how hate is managed is going to primarily affect the DPS classes, not the tanks. After all, if you rip from the tank, the tank isn't the one that's licking the floor ... it's you. Which means every DPS class is going to be giving a hard eyeball to the threat meter ... full out button mashing is just going to get you a repair bill. And yes, it'll probably have a net result of slowing most encounters down, some significantly.</p><p>Who I suspect this is really going to hurt are classes like the Warlock. Paladins have their AE's of course, and there's Sigil, but there's no way they can come close to managing the hate generated by any competently played Warlock. There's going to be a lot of casters eating dirt once GU51 hits live.</p><p>The one good thing about this? It will finally drive home the idea that <em><strong>aggro management is the responsiblity of the entire group</strong></em>, not a single class. The problem, of course, is that players have been used to it basically falling on the shoulders of the tank for years now. Getting players out of that mindset is going to make the next few months very, very interesting.</p>

QuaiCon
01-08-2009, 05:05 AM
<p>ok looked at the stats of the new spells on test but had no time to test it yet.</p><p>ok so the details (with 8 points in idolic axe but without def stance on):</p><p>clarion was insanley increased it taunts now in the 4-5k range</p><p>excoriation adept 3 is still 1.8-2.2k</p><p>penitent kick has another taunt in 3.5-4.5k range</p><p>heroic dash taunts for 2.6k</p><p>circular smite adds aoe aggro with about same values as excoriation</p><p>and finally amends+ upgrades i guess the new level 73 version should give roughly 4-5k hate every 4 seconds  for 20 seconds as master (just hoping the master will actually end up in drop tables too)</p><p>with master def stance all these these values additionally increase by 8%</p><p>additionally our def stance has a chance to proc a 1.682-2.056 taunt on any melee attack this value is with def stance allready on (if this could be changed to any attack, then it would help more in aoe aggro with most of our aoes being spells)</p><p>so it really looks like our taunts and the new abilities with taunts could give ok single target aggro, but we will definitely lacking in aoe aggro we just got excoriation which has a 10 sec reuse now and circular smite with 30 sec reuse and a relatively slow casting (at least compared to circle of conviction) .  i guess maxed trample will definitely be needed for aoe aggro.</p><p>we still got sigil of heroism and holy ground which both stay unchanged. so i would say it could work, but encounters will be hard work.</p><p>but i am really curious how much the melee damage multiplier reduction additionally reduces our allready low dps</p><p>about the merging of the spells i can only say that i now have both stances at master and before i only had the self buffs at master and stances as adept 3, so it seems that higher quality did count on test server.</p><p>ok thats enough facts analysisng, how it plays i cannot say yet i just looked at it short before work. maybe i can try to group this evening to see what we can do with our new taunts and what we can't do.</p><p>but another essential point will be where will pally stand after the changes as the 2nd single target tank, even when single target aggro will be great (not sure if it will be) we won't have the defensive capabilities of a guardian. we no longer have good aoe aggro controll, our heals are too low for the big raidhits, so what leaves this for pallies in raids? the spot of the reserve maintank that only gets in  when no guardian is available? i guess sk and bers will probably be the better offtank choices now, as they most likely will be much better dps in offstance too when they don't have to tank.</p><p>so this still leaves the 2 pally problems that our heals are near to useless in raids and cannot make up for our lower defensive capabilities in these situations and that our dps is lowest of the tank classes. without these problems getting fixed pally will be the looser for raids even if aggro changes work (which we will have to see still).</p>

Elad
01-08-2009, 05:34 AM
<p>Well that is good news about the spell merging going to the level of highest one. I also hope they make the new amends master drop often from lots of zones. Like I mentioned before it seems the low level T8 spells (71-74) are always the hardest to get. It does seem we will lose DPS in defense by the Blessed weapon being merged with offense stance. Since we are already low on DPS would like to hold on to every little bit of damage I can do. This merging means that in tanking defensive mode I will be doing even less DPS and therefore less hate. Maybe a small increase in CA or spell damage is in order. Plus would be nice to have some parry added to defense mode like other tanks have.</p>

Seomon
01-08-2009, 05:38 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really find it terrible that you would fundamentally change a class defining skill this long after launch.   </p><p>Kiljoi</p></blockquote><p>We didn't have Amends at launch.</p>

Troubor
01-08-2009, 06:05 AM
<p><cite>Elad wrote (in part):</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well that is good news about the spell merging going to the level of highest one. <snip></p></blockquote><p>I haven't read every thread and haven't looked in the other tank class threads, but where did you hear this if I may ask?  Don't doubt your word (And I'll stand corrected on my previous assumption that it would go to the lower in fact) but I wouldn't mind reading the thread where this was posted.</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 06:10 AM
<p><cite>Troubor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Elad wrote (in part):</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well that is good news about the spell merging going to the level of highest one.</p></blockquote><p>I haven't read every thread and haven't looked in the other tank class threads, but where did you hear this if I may ask? Don't doubt your word (And I'll stand corrected on my previous assumption that it would go to the lower in fact) but I wouldn't mind reading the thread where this was posted.</p></blockquote><p>He didn't read it, he said he has a Paladin on test. He had adept 3s for his stances, and masters for his buffs, and his stances became masters when they merged them.</p>

Nazani
01-08-2009, 06:14 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>but another essential point will be where will pally stand after the changes as the 2nd single target tank, even when single target aggro will be great (not sure if it will be) <strong>we won't have the defensive capabilities of a guardian</strong>. we no longer have good aoe aggro controll, our heals are too low for the big raidhits, so what leaves this for pallies in raids? the spot of the reserve maintank that only gets in  when no guardian is available? i guess sk and bers will <strong>probably be the better offtank choices now, as they most likely will be much better dps in offstance too when they don't have to tank.</strong></p><p>so this still leaves the 2 pally problems that <strong>our heals are near to useless in raids</strong> and cannot make up for our lower defensive capabilities in these situations and that our dps is lowest of the tank classes. without these problems getting fixed <strong>pally will be the looser for raids even if aggro changes work</strong> (which we will have to see still).</p></blockquote><p>Mmm, Jack of all trades master of none. Second best single tank in theory (I think that is the SK), 3rd AoE tank, and finally 3rd in dps. Maybe pally will be the first tank in single agro with these changes (If pally isn´t stunned, feared or so), but it does not matter for a RL, if the raid MT guardian is good, he will retain his agro as always and with better survivality.</p><p>So, if we have to lose time casting few heals, with less or no passive agro tools, with low dps and medium survivality, who will want us in raid content over the other tanks?Less opportunities for being a raid MT, many less opps for being the OT, and 0 room for "No MT-OT role tank" in raids (At least with the old amends, some charitable RLs chose pallies for amending the uber Asse).I think we will need more than new and powerfull single taunts for compete with the other tanks.</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 06:35 AM
<p>With regards to raids, I think you're going to see more of a shift to player skill (particularly in the OT role). Amends won't be the gateway for mediocre Paladins into raids; RLs will be focusing more on the abilities of the player, rather than the "magic button" a particular tank class has.</p>

Troubor
01-08-2009, 08:37 AM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Troubor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Elad wrote (in part):</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well that is good news about the spell merging going to the level of highest one.</p></blockquote><p>I haven't read every thread and haven't looked in the other tank class threads, but where did you hear this if I may ask? Don't doubt your word (And I'll stand corrected on my previous assumption that it would go to the lower in fact) but I wouldn't mind reading the thread where this was posted.</p></blockquote><p>He didn't read it, he said he has a Paladin on test. He had adept 3s for his stances, and masters for his buffs, and his stances became masters when they merged them.</p></blockquote><p>Didn't see that in his post, and didn't know that.  Anyway, thanks.  This is good to know, no matter what both of my stances will end up Master I at least based on this.</p><p>Kordan also posted this:  "<span ><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span><em>With regards to raids, I think you're going to see more of a shift to player skill (particularly in the OT role). Amends won't be the gateway for mediocre Paladins into raids; RLs will be focusing more on the abilities of the player, rather than the "magic button" a particular tank class has.</em>"  (End quote)</span></p><p><span >To a degree, perhaps so.  But this still ignores the fact that apparently the developers wish paladins to be more of a single target tank (despite the large number of AOE spells) and yet, don't really give us abilities to help compensate for such a broad change.  Or to put it another way, take two players of equal skill, one a guardian, one a paladin.  With this change, IMO the guardian will be the much more desired tank, period.  Before this, we at least had a good role as an OT.</span></p><p><span >I am tired and have some insomnia, and although I'm a BIT less irritated then when I saw the test notes when I first woke up, am still a bit less then amused, so maybe in a day or two my perception will change.  Again, I may finally /testcopy a character or two also, so I can try to see for myself or at least post /feedback that the developers CLAIM they will read.  But regardless, so far I just don't quite see where we're getting enough compensation for the changes being made.  I don't want to be the best tank class.  I don't want an "easy mode" switch.  I would like something somewhat similar to equality, and also for each class to be unique.  Different but equal would be ideal.  Maybe never truly possible, but IMO from what I've seen and how I comprehend it so far, these changes are a step backwards toward such ideal.  IMO these changes make the paladin a bit more generic, and fairly nerfed (I keep using the term castrated in some of my post titles in fact) without enough compensation.  But..maybe I should shut up and /testcopy too, I do keep admitting I have yet to do that.</span></p><p><span ></span></p><p><em> </em></p>

Feydakeen
01-08-2009, 09:03 AM
<p>/deep breath</p><p>Ok, I am not one who whines alot, nor am I one to be easily upset about changes. As I have been a Paladin from day one this game, I have put up with LOTS of changes...</p><p>However, I think they really gone and overdone themselves this time.</p><p>I am gonna go to test and try it out sure...</p><p>But what it all comes down too is a NERF...and not a small one either.</p><p>We are molded into single target tank, but are left with tons of AOE. We are supposed to be less defensive then guards but make that up with heals and ward...who get interrupted and are subpar.</p><p>As the content is now it's really easy to see what best plate tanks are gonna be.</p><p>MT on raid : Guard / SK > Zerker > Pally</p><p>OT on raid: Guard/SK/Zerker > Pally</p><p>Heroic content with lots of encounters SK>Zerker>Pally>Guard</p><p>Utility: SK > all</p><p>I'm gonna go to test and check it out, if i was wrong i will apologise for being /emo. But alas i don't think that will be necessary...</p>

QuaiCon
01-08-2009, 09:49 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We are molded into single target tank, but are left with tons of AOE. We are supposed to be less defensive then guards but make that up with heals and ward...who get interrupted and are subpar.</p></blockquote><p>thats the main problems that pallies will have. our heals take relatively long to cast so they get interrupted and now the devs also want us to use taunts more often so we will get even less to use heals (which never could live up to the better defensive abilities of a guard, at least not for raidcontent). the heals definitely need some work cause i really cannot see how we can to use them now without loosing aggro.</p><p>also a single target tank with 8 aoes (i'm at work  now but think its 8 aoes that we have including the aa ones) feels really wrong, i really liked the pally as a aoe tank and on single mobs our dps is really low, but with enough mobs around when we can use the aoes the dps gets ok.</p><p>also when they removed amends there was no consideration given to the point that we are the only tank that constantly has to cast heals to get approximately to the same defensive level as other tanks (doubt we were ever close to a guard),  but the heals were the reason why we had amends in first place since we cannot effecively generate hate while healing ourself, without amends we have to decide if we want to keep aggro and die if the ehaler cannot keep us up or help healer and loose aggro. So there definitely needs to be some changes to pally healing/defense too wihout amends. (besides the point that these changes were needed before this allready too).</p>

Antryg Mistrose
01-08-2009, 10:53 AM
<p><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really find it terrible that you would fundamentally change a class defining skill this long after launch.   </p><p>Kiljoi</p></blockquote><p>We didn't have Amends at launch.</p></blockquote><p>Didn't we? I'd swear I got redemption in my 20's - it's been a Paladin characteristic for years - subbar dps, subpar survivability, but mobs stay on like glue.</p>

QuaiCon
01-08-2009, 10:56 AM
<p><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really find it terrible that you would fundamentally change a class defining skill this long after launch.   </p><p>Kiljoi</p></blockquote><p>We didn't have Amends at launch.</p></blockquote><p>Didn't we? I'd swear I got redemption in my 20's - it's been a Paladin characteristic for years - subbar dps, subpar survivability, but mobs stay on like glue.</p></blockquote><p>yes redemption was there a launch in he lvl 20s, but it used 3 concentration spots till gu 13, so you had to sacrifice some buffs back then to use it (but it allways was a aggro transfer).</p>

Kiljoi
01-08-2009, 11:49 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really find it terrible that you would fundamentally change a class defining skill this long after launch.   </p><p>Kiljoi</p></blockquote><p>We didn't have Amends at launch.</p></blockquote><p>Didn't we? I'd swear I got redemption in my 20's - it's been a Paladin characteristic for years - subbar dps, subpar survivability, but mobs stay on like glue.</p></blockquote><p>yes redemption was there a launch in he lvl 20s, but it used 3 concentration spots till gu 13, so you had to sacrifice some buffs back then to use it (but it allways was a aggro transfer).</p></blockquote><p>thats still amends.  its been a LONG time playing like this. you stand corrected</p>

Loxus
01-08-2009, 01:25 PM
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">Paladin’s sense of purpose.</span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">First this needs to go to live servers ASAP, SOE test servers don’t have the population to truly test all the changes in all viable encounters and people are over re-acting without full testing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The one thing I do see is this</span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">we lost amends and actually I’m happy about that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I like the way the changes are going and I was sick and tired of being told pallys are ezmode tanking because of amends.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Thank you for giving us control of that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">Edited... (got swift strike and idolic axe mixed up)  Sorry for my confusion.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"></span></p> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p>

Raidyen
01-08-2009, 01:37 PM
<p>Amends used to be the defining ability of the paladin, and while i do agree with the Dev's that it needed to be changed, the current way it reads is kind of bland.  To go from a 40 percent hate transfer to a glorified Rescue that all fighters have anyway is just kind of dull.  It really needs to be dressed up a bit.  Like, allow it to be cast through fear/stifle/stun etc.  Also would be nice if it had like a hate crit mod added to it for its 20 second duration.  Just something to make a little more sparkly, and not so blah.</p>

Eriol
01-08-2009, 01:45 PM
<p>So my necro hasn't been very worth playing since RoK at least (pets die if a mob even starts to breathe on them, nerfing DPS greatly), and now my pally is going to be last in fighter DPS, and last in agro control.  Did any devs know that I chose to play a paladin BECAUSE they had the greatest and easiest agro control?  I <em>KNEW</em> I was taking a hit to DPS, but I wanted to be able to keep agro better than ANY other tank.  Now it will be the WORST.  And with all the uncurable and/or unresistable stun/control effects, yikes.  Not to mention the reduction in AE agro control, which is obviously horrible too.</p><p>Well I'm glad that at least Templars are doing OK, and I decided to bring up my Coercer (who was relatively-recently buffed) to top level, as otherwise the characters I most liked playing will be completely weak.  Well they were still my most-enjoyed characters, but maybe in 2-3 years they'll be buffed to being worth played again.</p><p>As for the specific "remedies" outlined in this thread, RELYING on massive AA investment to bring us EQUAL to the other classes is NOT a solution.  AAs should be for enhancing classes, but theoretically we should be equal to the others with ZERO AAs!  With many, we should still be equal, but with different focus, but it should not be REQUIRED to invest any to make up for a massive shortfall.</p>

Boli32
01-08-2009, 02:34 PM
<p>Self Buffed on live right now I have 15,886 health; on test this is increased slightly due to the health buff slightly higher on defensive stance; call it 15.9k health.</p><p>I have +140 to heals, the +5% to base heals and all my heals are mastered; with 34% heal crit.</p><p>But even with that I barely make a dent in my health; there is just no point... this is LU50 to cast most of them beyond group heal when an AoE hits and LoH when I get spike damage; come LU51 I'm simply not gonan have CHANCE to cast them... I'll be too busy spamming "rescues" on the mob; if heals are supposed to be the new defining aspect of what makes us "second most defensive tank" I fail to see how making it problem to cast them</p><p>IMHO merge the single target ward into Defensive stance and make it a regenerating ward a HUGE regenerating ward which procs hate on the mob/person who damages you; if you want to go the whole hog and make us single target tank make the hate proc fire upon the mob ONLY if they have the amends taunt DoT ticking on them; this will go a long wat to making us more defensive and give us single target agro; or even if you want us to do all the tanking and taunting from now on; make it so we can cast our heals on the healers and they will now procs off the HEALERS heals... make them do all the ruddy healing instead of us as we're not gonna have time..</p><p>I could talk for hours about "pretty cool stuff" you coudl do with the class... b/c it kills me as I KNOW paladins have so much potential you could do with a holy knoight that heals; but the entire paladin process has been an aimless amble with us just being given random abilities to see them nerfed than another weird one... and more "heals" just because.</p><p>I just hope the choir is listening, b/c no-one else seems to want to listen.</p>

Mahgnus
01-08-2009, 03:26 PM
<p><span><p>I think it’s quite clear that no matter how much we badger, beg, and plea to have Amends returned to its current original state, it won’t happen. So with that being said, we need to make sure we get the best possible outcome of this or else we will end up like Monks did in beta. Its clear no Paladin is happy with the change in its current form so we need to propose and feedback a change to the current Amends that is suitable to both parties, the Players and Developers alike.</p><p>We currently already have plenty of snap agro buffs and attacks. Holy Ground, Sneering Assault and Rescue. Two of the 3 have AA’s that allow them to be reduced if they are needed for the individual. By making Amends now another type of these buffs, its just no where near as useful. Its near the same as our new AA attack, Faithful Cry. While Faithful Cry is beyond amazing, we are more pressed at the moment to fill the void left by the loss of the transfer style Amends. Especially the part that provided continuous agro when we were forced to heal. Without that security that Amends provided we will have problems maintaining agro while we stop to heal ourselves. An ave. Paladins should be casting a heal/ward atleast once every 8-10 seconds or there not gaining the most out of there tools. This leads to our agro generation to being stop and go, stop and go. Which is very unhealthy for maintaining a steady stream of hate.</p><p>What I propose to fill that void is a static buff that makes Amends increase the hate amount of our heals by 300%. Similar to what the Sk and Zerker mythicals have/had. Now that by it’s self is no where near the effectiveness that Amends once was. That coupled with a secondary effect of say, a large hate over time proc when hit would provide the steady stream of agro what will be now necessary now with the Amends change.</p><p>This is just the agro side of the fight. This doesnt cover the fact that we are intended to be another option for a MT but yet have less surviability then all other plate tanks.</p></span></p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 03:38 PM
<p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><p>An ave. <strong>Paladins should be casting a heal/ward atleast once every 8-10 seconds</strong> or there not gaining the most out of there tools. This leads to our agro generation to being stop and go, stop and go. Which is very unhealthy for maintaining a steady stream of hate.</p></span></p></blockquote><p>I can't see any Paladin doing this, past, present or future. Why in the world would you constantly cast wards/heals on yourself, when they're relatively long casting, ward and heal for minimal amounts and have a significant power cost over time? The self-heal is useful in a pinch, but it has a long recast. So what you're saying makes absolutely no sense to me. When I'm tanking, the only time I generally ward myself is on the pull.  In truth, the heal I find myself using most commonly is Holy Touch when the healer is in trouble (stunned, stifled, etc.), but that's about it.</p>

Xentin
01-08-2009, 03:46 PM
<p><strong>Alright so this is how I see it. I <span style="font-size: medium;">DONT</span> want Amends Back, NO! It needed changed, its not good that we have relied on others for hate for this long.</strong></p><p>With that said, giving us an extra weak taunt with hate position, not needed. We have Holy Ground, we have Rescue still, if you need more snap aggro, your not doing something right. The current form of it = useless and most likely wont even be on my hotbars.</p><p>Make us more viable for the raid/group now. You gave Zerkers much needed buffs, good raidwide and whatnot now. You replaced us with SKs, they have awesome buffs, great dps and raid groups want them over us now. We have never provided Utility for raid groups other than weak spot heals. Our raidwide is mediocre compared to the others, we only have 1 other group buff and it does absolutely no DPS in groups or raids. We need something to make us semi wanted again. Rule out the fact that you are trying to make us a single target tank, Guardians will always be the most viable single target tank and you know that. Make us just as viable as Zerkers and SKs for OT / Groups. Give us a group buff or a new taunt ability that has like a group buff added in with it. With these current changes, there wont be a home for a paladin in any raid guild minus the few leaders/officers out there like myself (and trust me my guild dislikes I am not playing a SK atm) and the casual people who just want tanks for Pick up Groups.</p><p>Just an idea that comes to mind, only first thing I have thought of and we have a few weeks to work on this. Maybe a group buff that isnt a impact thing but something small like 5% casting speed to the group OR 5 melee + spell crit + dblatk to the group.</p><p>My usual group setup on raids goes as follows:Paladin - Dirge - Troubador - Illusionist - Mystic - Templar</p><p>At times the dirge would be switched for a Warlock because of Amends for tanking avatar adds, actually mostly the mystic would be because RoK avatars only needed 1 healer. But for TSO that is my typical group setup. Now see in that group I benefit from everyone there, and they all benefit from eachother, but they get absolutely nothing from me. Put an SK or Zerk into that group over me, you have a near perfect group.</p><p>All I am asking is give us something to make us more viable, an extra taunt is not going to make us wanted or needed.</p>

Dasein
01-08-2009, 03:47 PM
<p>The only time I bother using heals is if I'm not tanking in a raid or am soloing. I'll occasionally use a ward when pulling, too. Overall, Paladin heals simply aren't worth the power/time to cast, especially when healers have vastly superior healing capabilities.</p>

Xentin
01-08-2009, 03:50 PM
<p>No offense but like Mahgnus said, if you arent using your heals you are not playing your class to its potential. With STR Line now you can efficiently time your CAs/Spells between Auto Attacks Along with Warding yourself, and Spot healing where needed, be it your group heal or your single target to a random in your group, that is your utility, crap or not, as a paladin, the only problem with it is, we dont generate hate from it other than the heal itself unlike SKs.</p>

Mahgnus
01-08-2009, 03:50 PM
<p><span ><p>Another possible suggestion is, Amends could be turned into a temp buff. Something along the lines of this. Does xxx amount of hate when casted with xxx hate over time to target, xxx amount of a ward for the Paladin and small cast speed / reuse buff for the group. This would help most major points of concerns we have at the moment for Paladins. Hate, survivability and utility. At the moment we are sub par to all plate fighters in survivability and just above Guardians in terms of utility. These are things that need to be addressed if we are going to take on this new role we are being forced into.</p></span></p>

Seomon
01-08-2009, 04:01 PM
<p>As long as they fix the D Stance and give us Parry after all this time I'll be extremely happy. Amends in its current state just really needs more position change to make it viable, but it gives us nothing to bring to the group makeup. Maghnus' suggestion to make it +hate +ward +cast speed/reuse buff for the group would actually give us something to bring to groups instead of the small damage proc that we currently bring.</p>

Mahgnus
01-08-2009, 04:03 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><p>An ave. <strong>Paladins should be casting a heal/ward atleast once every 8-10 seconds</strong> or there not gaining the most out of there tools. This leads to our agro generation to being stop and go, stop and go. Which is very unhealthy for maintaining a steady stream of hate.</p></span></p></blockquote><p>I can't see any Paladin doing this, past, present or future. Why in the world would you constantly cast wards/heals on yourself, when they're relatively long casting, ward and heal for minimal amounts and have a significant power cost over time? The self-heal is useful in a pinch, but it has a long recast. So what you're saying makes absolutely no sense to me. When I'm tanking, the only time I generally ward myself is on the pull.  In truth, the heal I find myself using most commonly is Holy Touch when the healer is in trouble (stunned, stifled, etc.), but that's about it.</p></blockquote><p>Imma not sure how to respond to you post  then you simply arent a very good Paladin. It's clear you havent noticed the reduction in the cast time we were givin to our heals that allow them to be effectively used. With that being said, the ward easly makes up anywhere to 7-12 % of my zw heals. By not chain castin your most important castable <span>defensive ability your limiting you ability to keep yourself alive period.</span> </p><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only time I bother using heals is if I'm not tanking in a raid or am soloing. I'll occasionally use a ward when pulling, too. Overall, Paladin heals simply aren't worth the power/time to cast, especially when healers have vastly superior healing capabilities.</p></blockquote><p><p>The ward is our bread and butter.  Its one of the most important abilities we have to keep ourselves alive. Especially in raids! Lettin your healer do 100% of your inc heals is not usin your tools to there full potential. Your sentually playin a Guardian without usein any of your temp avoidance or miti buffs. With the cast reduction to them coupled along with the Str line cast speed increase we can effectivly weave those into our rotaion when needed.</p><p><cite>Xentin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No offense but like Mahgnus said, if you arent using your heals you are not playing your class to its potential. With STR Line now you can efficiently time your CAs/Spells between Auto Attacks Along with Warding yourself, and Spot healing where needed, be it your group heal or your single target to a random in your group, that is your utility, crap or not, as a paladin, the only problem with it is, we dont generate hate from it other than the heal itself unlike SKs.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p></p>

Mahgnus
01-08-2009, 04:11 PM
<p><cite><p><cite>Xentin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>With that said, giving us an extra weak taunt with hate position, not needed. We have Holy Ground, we have Rescue still, if you need more snap aggro, your not doing something right. The current form of it = useless and most likely wont even be on my hotbars.</p><p>Make us more viable for the raid/group now. You gave Zerkers much needed buffs, good raidwide and whatnot now. You replaced us with SKs, they have awesome buffs, great dps and raid groups want them over us now. We have never provided Utility for raid groups other than weak spot heals. Our raidwide is mediocre compared to the others, we only have 1 other group buff and it does absolutely no DPS in groups or raids. We need something to make us semi wanted again. Rule out the fact that you are trying to make us a single target tank, Guardians will always be the most viable single target tank and you know that. Make us just as viable as Zerkers and SKs for OT / Groups. Give us a group buff or a new taunt ability that has like a group buff added in with it. With these current changes, there wont be a home for a paladin in any raid guild minus the few leaders/officers out there like myself (and trust me my guild dislikes I am not playing a SK atm) and the casual people who just want tanks for Pick up Groups.</p><p>All I am asking is give us something to make us more viable, an extra taunt is not going to make us wanted or needed.</p></blockquote></cite></p><p><cite>QFE</cite></p><p><cite>Seomon wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As long as they fix the D Stance and give us Parry after all this time I'll be extremely happy. Amends in its current state just really needs more position change to make it viable, but it gives us nothing to bring to the group makeup. Maghnus' suggestion to make it +hate +ward +cast speed/reuse buff for the group would actually give us something to bring to groups instead of the small damage proc that we currently bring.</p></blockquote><p>The stance also needs to have parry added as mentioned above. We are the only Fighter atm without a second type of avoidance on our D stance. That suggestion would help bridge all 3 of our concerns we have atm. Utility, survivability and hate control.</p><p>With Rescue, Sneering Assualt and Holy Ground we have plently enough snap aggros. If a personal <span>individual</span> needs more for w/e reason, 2/3 can be reduced recast through AA's.</p>

Boli32
01-08-2009, 04:23 PM
<p>I don't like quoting myself but if you think that heals are not part of the paladin class then read <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/38102-wtb-standard-paladin-aa-building-ground-up-2.html" target="_blank">this</a>.</p><p>Done right you're looking at 20% damage reduction.... if we cannot cast our heals without loosing agro its all for nothing.</p>

Mahgnus
01-08-2009, 04:29 PM
<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't like quoting myself but if you think that heals are not part of the paladin class then read <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/38102-wtb-standard-paladin-aa-building-ground-up-2.html" target="_blank">this</a>.</p><p>Done right you're looking at 20% damage reduction.... if we cannot cast our heals without loosing agro its all for nothing.</p></blockquote><p>If its somethin so absoutly clear as this, quotin yourself is ftw for the sake of savin yourself the time to retype it all.</p>

Dasein
01-08-2009, 05:18 PM
<p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><p>An ave. <strong>Paladins should be casting a heal/ward atleast once every 8-10 seconds</strong> or there not gaining the most out of there tools. This leads to our agro generation to being stop and go, stop and go. Which is very unhealthy for maintaining a steady stream of hate.</p></span></p></blockquote><p>I can't see any Paladin doing this, past, present or future. Why in the world would you constantly cast wards/heals on yourself, when they're relatively long casting, ward and heal for minimal amounts and have a significant power cost over time? The self-heal is useful in a pinch, but it has a long recast. So what you're saying makes absolutely no sense to me. When I'm tanking, the only time I generally ward myself is on the pull.  In truth, the heal I find myself using most commonly is Holy Touch when the healer is in trouble (stunned, stifled, etc.), but that's about it.</p></blockquote><p>Imma not sure how to respond to you post  then you simply arent a very good Paladin. It's clear you havent noticed the reduction in the cast time we were givin to our heals that allow them to be effectively used. With that being said, the ward easly makes up anywhere to 7-12 % of my zw heals. By not chain castin your most important castable <span>defensive ability your limiting you ability to keep yourself alive period.</span> </p><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only time I bother using heals is if I'm not tanking in a raid or am soloing. I'll occasionally use a ward when pulling, too. Overall, Paladin heals simply aren't worth the power/time to cast, especially when healers have vastly superior healing capabilities.</p></blockquote><p>The ward is our bread and butter.  Its one of the most important abilities we have to keep ourselves alive. Especially in raids! Lettin your healer do 100% of your inc heals is not usin your tools to there full potential. Your sentually playin a Guardian without usein any of your temp avoidance or miti buffs. With the cast reduction to them coupled along with the Str line cast speed increase we can effectivly weave those into our rotaion when needed.</p><p><cite>Xentin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No offense but like Mahgnus said, if you arent using your heals you are not playing your class to its potential. With STR Line now you can efficiently time your CAs/Spells between Auto Attacks Along with Warding yourself, and Spot healing where needed, be it your group heal or your single target to a random in your group, that is your utility, crap or not, as a paladin, the only problem with it is, we dont generate hate from it other than the heal itself unlike SKs.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p></blockquote><p>I am aware of the importance of heals, but when taking regular damage while being stunned, stifled, etc. as happens often in raid encounters, anything with more than a second or so cast time becomes very difficult to get off. Thus, wards and heals, while they could be useful can become a liability if they prevent you from using other abilities. Further, what I usually see is that my heals do not get off before the healers have gotten me back up to full health already, so they are often wasted.</p>

OrcSlayer96
01-08-2009, 05:21 PM
<p>A little something else to think about, why not put the 300% hate value of a heal/ward on the defensive stance along with the + parry?  Keep Amends the way it is on Test with the additional +3 hate positions initial and + 1 hate position each proc?  That way if a paladin is on offensive stance they recieve no extra hate on heals and while on defensive stance we make our heals/wards give us survivalbility plus agro.  While we are at it, is the hate aoe on Cure Spells the same?  If the same we need it bumped up to help on taunt numbers like our other taunts.  We won't be kings of survival, but we should be kings of at least single target hate and options to grab aoe hate if we can...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Mahgnus
01-08-2009, 05:29 PM
<p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am aware of the importance of heals, but when taking regular damage while being stunned, stifled, etc. as happens often in raid encounters, anything with more than a second or so cast time becomes very difficult to get off. Thus, wards and heals, while they could be useful can become a liability if they prevent you from using other abilities. Further, what I usually see is that my heals do not get off before the healers have gotten me back up to full health already, so they are often wasted.</p></blockquote><p>The heals with just str lin and no aa in the heal line are 1.13 cast time. The ward is 1.5. The ward can be harder to get off sometimes but thats not a reason not to use it.</p><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> a liability if they prevent you from using other abilities</p></blockquote><p>Such as?</p><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>what I usually see is that my heals do not get off before the healers have gotten me back up to full health already, so they are often wasted.</p></blockquote><p>You waited to long to start healin/wardin yourself, I promise if you focus on uesin them more in a rotation and not waitin untill your in red to use them, your survivablity will go up tremendously.</p>

Loxus
01-08-2009, 05:57 PM
<p><cite>Xentin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong>Alright so this is how I see it. I <span style="font-size: medium;">DONT</span> want Amends Back, NO! It needed changed, its not good that we have relied on others for hate for this long.</strong></p><p>With that said, giving us an extra weak taunt with hate position, not needed. We have Holy Ground, we have Rescue still, if you need more snap aggro, your not doing something right. The current form of it = useless and most likely wont even be on my hotbars.</p><p>Make us more viable for the raid/group now. You gave Zerkers much needed buffs, good raidwide and whatnot now. You replaced us with SKs, they have awesome buffs, great dps and raid groups want them over us now. We have never provided Utility for raid groups other than weak spot heals. Our raidwide is mediocre compared to the others, we only have 1 other group buff and it does absolutely no DPS in groups or raids. We need something to make us semi wanted again. Rule out the fact that you are trying to make us a single target tank, Guardians will always be the most viable single target tank and you know that. Make us just as viable as Zerkers and SKs for OT / Groups. Give us a group buff or a new taunt ability that has like a group buff added in with it. With these current changes, there wont be a home for a paladin in any raid guild minus the few leaders/officers out there like myself (and trust me my guild dislikes I am not playing a SK atm) and the casual people who just want tanks for Pick up Groups.</p><p>Just an idea that comes to mind, only first thing I have thought of and we have a few weeks to work on this. Maybe a group buff that isnt a impact thing but something small like 5% casting speed to the group OR 5 melee + spell crit + dblatk to the group.</p><p>My usual group setup on raids goes as follows:Paladin - Dirge - Troubador - Illusionist - Mystic - Templar</p><p>At times the dirge would be switched for a Warlock because of Amends for tanking avatar adds, actually mostly the mystic would be because RoK avatars only needed 1 healer. But for TSO that is my typical group setup. Now see in that group I benefit from everyone there, and they all benefit from eachother, but they get absolutely nothing from me. Put an SK or Zerk into that group over me, you have a near perfect group.</p><p>All I am asking is give us something to make us more viable, an extra taunt is not going to make us wanted or needed.</p></blockquote><p>QFE</p>

Dasein
01-08-2009, 05:58 PM
<p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am aware of the importance of heals, but when taking regular damage while being stunned, stifled, etc. as happens often in raid encounters, anything with more than a second or so cast time becomes very difficult to get off. Thus, wards and heals, while they could be useful can become a liability if they prevent you from using other abilities. Further, what I usually see is that my heals do not get off before the healers have gotten me back up to full health already, so they are often wasted.</p></blockquote><p>The heals with just str lin and no aa in the heal line are 1.13 cast time. The ward is 1.5. The ward can be harder to get off sometimes but thats not a reason not to use it.</p><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> a liability if they prevent you from using other abilities</p></blockquote><p>Such as?</p><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>what I usually see is that my heals do not get off before the healers have gotten me back up to full health already, so they are often wasted.</p></blockquote><p>You waited to long to start healin/wardin yourself, I promise if you focus on uesin them more in a rotation and not waitin untill your in red to use them, your survivablity will go up tremendously.</p></blockquote><p>Survivability has never been an issue for me. Still, it seems like heals and wards get interrupted more often than other spells, and with the auto-recast on interrupt, it can lead to situations where you're stuck for a moment recasting a spell you no longer need.</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 06:27 PM
<p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Imma not sure how to respond to you post then you simply arent a very good Paladin. It's clear you havent noticed the reduction in the cast time we were givin to our heals that allow them to be effectively used. With that being said, the ward easly makes up anywhere to 7-12 % of my zw heals. By not chain castin your most important castable <span>defensive ability your limiting you ability to keep yourself alive period.</span></p></blockquote><p>Are you kidding? In an instance or raid, it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's what the healers are there for. My job is to hold aggro. Period. Heals don't really help do that, since they don't even have a 1:1 threat ratio.</p><p>Who in the world cares what your ZW heals are, when you're in an instance like PoF and the healer is healing for 4+ million points of damage? At best, you're maybe doing about 5-10% of the total ZW heal parse and you're looking at 7-12% of <em>that</em>? You really think that ward is going to make a difference when you're getting spiked with back to back crits for 8-10K damage by a named? And forget raids. That ward and our heals are a <em>joke</em> when it comes to raid mobs.</p><p>So instead of spending your power on making sure that mob is stuck to you, you're waving your hands in the air to try and heal yourself? And you're saying I'm not a good Paladin. Good freakin' grief. If you're worried about survivabilty, get better gear and/or find better healers.</p>

Noaani
01-08-2009, 06:36 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Are you kidding? In an instance or raid, it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's what the healers are there for.</blockquote><p>This is kind of the same as a guardian saying he will never use Wall of Armor. Its just flat out wrong.</p>

Boli32
01-08-2009, 06:42 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Imma not sure how to respond to you post then you simply arent a very good Paladin. It's clear you havent noticed the reduction in the cast time we were givin to our heals that allow them to be effectively used. With that being said, the ward easly makes up anywhere to 7-12 % of my zw heals. By not chain castin your most important castable <span>defensive ability your limiting you ability to keep yourself alive period.</span></p></blockquote><p>Are you kidding? In an instance or raid, it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's what the healers are there for. My job is to hold aggro. Period. Heals don't really help do that, since they don't even have a 1:1 threat ratio.</p><p>Who in the world cares what your ZW heals are, when you're in an instance like PoF and the healer is healing for 4+ million points of damage? At best, you're maybe doing about 5-10% of the total ZW heal parse and you're looking at 7-12% of <em>that</em>? You really think that ward is going to make a difference when you're getting spiked with back to back crits for 8-10K damage by a named? And forget raids. That ward and our heals are a <em>joke</em> when it comes to raid mobs.</p><p>So instead of spending your power on making sure that mob is stuck to you, you're waving your hands in the air to try and heal yourself? And you're saying I'm not a good Paladin. Good freakin' grief. If you're worried about survivabilty, get better gear and/or find better healers.</p></blockquote><p>Tank is useless without the ability to HOLD and SURVIVE agro. fail in either of them and you fail. if one is locked enhance the other; if both are locked dps more.</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 06:44 PM
<p><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Are you kidding? In an instance or raid, it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's what the healers are there for.</blockquote><p>This is kind of the same as a guardian saying he will never use Wall of Armor. Its just flat out wrong.</p></blockquote><p>Reading comprehension is difficult for you, I understand. Where, exactly, did I say "never"?</p><p>It's not my job to keep myself alive because it's not something that is possible to do. A Paladin cannot self-heal through a raid fight and keep himself up. That should go without question. The primary job of keeping the tank up is the healers. Does that mean a Paladin should never cast his ward? Of course not. But it's secondary to him doing what needs to be done to keep that mob locked to him.</p><p>When I'm in the red, that ward or self-heal won't save me. Holy Touch might, depending. Buffed in the OT group, I'm at around 20K health and you know what those mobs hit for. So if I'm that far down, you're seriously saying that ward is going to make any kind of significant difference in the outcome? Please.</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 06:48 PM
<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tank is useless without the ability to HOLD and SURVIVE agro. fail in either of them and you fail. if one is locked enhance the other; if both are locked dps more.</p></blockquote><p>That's like saying the sky is blue and the sun rises in the east. Thanks.</p><p>If a Paladin is having problems with survivability, his self wards/heals aren't the answer. <strong>They are simply not that good</strong>.</p>

Boli32
01-08-2009, 06:56 PM
<p>That the equiv to refusing to wear some shoes because you don't like the colour... THEY ARE THE BEST WE'VE GOT! use what you have; if you didn't like the idea of a tank who used heals to supliment their tanking you rolled the wrong class. I'm not sayiung they are perfect but I'm not gonna ignore them if I surivive an extra second or the group gets a group heal at the right moment then its worth using them. Time em right and they are a very effective way of recovering from damage.</p><p>Take another look at the health raid MTs run at... then look at normal healers heals... it takes TIME for them to pull you back from red; throwing a heal at yourself to bring you back in the green is not wasted time.</p>

Xentin
01-08-2009, 07:02 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tank is useless without the ability to HOLD and SURVIVE agro. fail in either of them and you fail. if one is locked enhance the other; if both are locked dps more.</p></blockquote><p>That's like saying the sky is blue and the sun rises in the east. Thanks.</p><p>If a Paladin is having problems with survivability, his self wards/heals aren't the answer. <strong>They are simply not that good</strong>.</p></blockquote><p>All I have to say is LOL!!! Seriously, it is part of our defense. You relying straight on your healers is like casual raiders not using cure pots because thats somoene elses job. Why not try to help them, you have the ability to do so. I have never had such a problem with hate that my heals crippled my ability to "tank" and frankly I have always been able to spot heal a raid and keep myself warded to alleviate some of the damage. Mix-Max your class, play it to its full potential, dont say something is not viable because you dont understand it.</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 07:05 PM
<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Take another look at the health raid MTs run at... then look at normal healers heals... it takes TIME for them to pull you back from red; throwing a heal at yourself to bring you back in the green is not wasted time.</p></blockquote><p>But this discussion didn't start out talking about using our heals in those "oh crap!" moments. It was advocating that our wards/heals be used in <strong>regular rotation</strong> with our CAs and spells. That is what I disagree with.</p><p>Of course when I'm in the red, I reflexively use my heals and throw up my ward. But the truth is, if we're getting plowed that hard, the idea of that ward buying enough time for the healer to get us back up is not realistic. It'll drop on the next hit, and not even absorb all of that. I've never had a healer say to me "man, that's lucky you got your ward up or we would have wiped there".</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 07:10 PM
<p><cite>Xentin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Mix-Max your class, play it to its full potential, dont say something is not viable because you dont understand it.</p></blockquote><p>I presume you mean min/max, and I understand it perfectly. I think actually damaging the mob and generating more hate should take priority over trying to chain ward myself for miniscule amounts. Paladins are not battle priests. If it were a 6K or 8K ward, I'd be in complete agreement with you. It would be high enough to be given priority on the rotation. As it is now, it simply makes no sense to me to do that. My "help" for the healers in the group/raid is making sure the mob isn't two-shotting the squishies.</p>

Boli32
01-08-2009, 07:12 PM
<p>Against tough mobs ward SHOULD be used in regular rotation... as its a pre heal and stacks. what other tank can self buff their own health by a "virtual" 2500 every 15s? our single taret heals are lacking a lot more.. but the group AoE is especially effective at helping the group recover from AoEs... I would rather have the healer spend more time curing and replacing wards/reactives/regens then stoping to spot heal when you can do it faster and timed right it does not interupt you.</p><p>Heals ARE and shoul ALWAYS be part of your regular rotation when tanking.</p>

Kiljoi
01-08-2009, 07:25 PM
<p>this is just redundant but w/e.... we have heals... and they are there to be used.</p>

OrcSlayer96
01-08-2009, 07:27 PM
<p>To each their own Kordran, but i have always been a paladin that tried to help the healers/raid out on heals/wards, and with the TSO enhancements and AA's it makes it much easier now.  In between autoattacks i toss up my ward, if the group gets nailed with a nasty aoe i toss up a grp heal to help out as it takes 1 sec to cast.  when a large hit brings me down in health i use sacrament of bayle to push my health up 5-6 k, as it is on a 1 sec cast 1min 22 sec recast.  If lay on hands is up a may cast that also, but i prefer sacrament more for the lower power cost and with heal crits the difference in healing is not as much as it should be.  My one heal i dont use as much is the single target one, i will if it looks needed but it is not in my normal rotation usually.  Good luck on staying with the philosophy that heals/wards should only be done in the red, and i will stay with mine for more preventative survival...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Sinvaryen_1
01-08-2009, 07:29 PM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p></blockquote><p>People have been objective and you've ignored them time and time again. Why should this time be any different? Paladins have complained about some glaring deficiencies for years and nobody has ever even responded and said "hey we'll look into it" or "what don't you like?".  I've seen a lot of great suggestions about how to make Paladins unique, fun to play, desired in all aspects of the game and balanced. Not one of them is implemented because they aren't your ideas. That's really setting an example and being objective...so is leaking exploits to your guild so you can get mythicals.</p><p>I'd like to know why you are so above reproach? I'm not trying to stir things up or derail the subject but I think this may be the root of a lot of people's frustrations. A lot of the changes you've made to this game are questionable to a lot of people. The answer is always "you don't see the big picture". That's awfully arrogant and condescending, especially when speaking to paying customers. Communication with the community has always been terrible with SOE. Why is this? Why do you think your players are so stupid that we dont' know what we are talking about? I've seen people on these boards and "others" discover things about this game that even you guys weren't aware of (I'd link to the post about too much INT decreasing power but I'm too lazy to look). That's pretty impressive for a bunch of slack jawed morons who don't "see the big picture".</p><p>Also, don't pull this "test it out or shut up" nonsense. I don't think anyone is paying money to beta test things for you. Hire more people, I'm sure the firing of you and hiring of 4 chimpanzees would equal out in the end. After all, when a monkey throws poo at you, at least they don't try to write it off as a favor.</p>

Maveric_LOL
01-08-2009, 07:59 PM
<p><cite>Oh man i think you just summed up the feelings of every single active pally. I want to thank you for being awsome. Granted, he will probably ignore it and ban you for saying what so many are thinking, but at least someone had the courage to come out and say it. </cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p></blockquote><p>People have been objective and you've ignored them time and time again. Why should this time be any different? Paladins have complained about some glaring deficiencies for years and nobody has ever even responded and said "hey we'll look into it" or "what don't you like?".  I've seen a lot of great suggestions about how to make Paladins unique, fun to play, desired in all aspects of the game and balanced. Not one of them is implemented because they aren't your ideas. That's really setting an example and being objective...so is leaking exploits to your guild so you can get mythicals.</p><p>I'd like to know why you are so above reproach? I'm not trying to stir things up or derail the subject but I think this may be the root of a lot of people's frustrations. A lot of the changes you've made to this game are questionable to a lot of people. The answer is always "you don't see the big picture". That's awfully arrogant and condescending, especially when speaking to paying customers. Communication with the community has always been terrible with SOE. Why is this? Why do you think your players are so stupid that we dont' know what we are talking about? I've seen people on these boards and "others" discover things about this game that even you guys weren't aware of (I'd link to the post about too much INT decreasing power but I'm too lazy to look). That's pretty impressive for a bunch of slack jawed morons who don't "see the big picture".</p><p>Also, don't pull this "test it out or shut up" nonsense. I don't think anyone is paying money to beta test things for you. Hire more people, I'm sure the firing of you and hiring of 4 chimpanzees would equal out in the end. After all, when a monkey throws poo at you, at least they don't try to write it off as a favor.</p></blockquote>

therodge
01-08-2009, 08:13 PM
<p>ok if your gonna change amends, i suggest changeing it to something far diffrent, a temporary group buff</p><p>amends master 1 (we will asume this is the level 80 amends as i dont know its name</p><p>casting 1 sec</p><p>reuse 2 min</p><p>duration 20  seconds</p><p>increases hate gain by 50%</p><p>increase parry and defence by 100</p><p>----IF FIGHTER</p><p>decreases hate gain by 50%</p><p>---- if not fighter</p><p>---- in defensive stance</p><p>increases haste dps double attack melee crit and spell crit  heal crit by reuse and casting speed by 40</p><p>increases chance to double spell attack by 25%</p><p>if offensive stance</p><p>ok this 1 would give us a raid spot as a 2 min buff that frankly is freaken crazy (but so was the orginal amends) and would be worth keeping a paladin in the raid for, also in defensive stance it is now a very nice temporary buff for those tough encounters</p>

RafaelSmith
01-08-2009, 08:21 PM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p></blockquote><p>Wow what an <span >arrogant</span> piece of work you are.</p><p>Telling people to "Try it or shut up" anytime you don't agree or like their feedback is not "being open to feedback".</p><p>I really do not need to "test" out these changes to see that the overall approach you are taking is not a good one for the game...less options and forcing us into stances are never good design decisions.</p><p>Trying to use AE Tanking -vs- Single Target tanking as the measure of tank "balance" is flawed in every way possible...unless of course you have an enitirely different definition of what "balance" means than we do.</p><p>Perhaps start acting like the professional you should be and set an example instead of acting like a child.</p>

Mahgnus
01-08-2009, 08:36 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p></blockquote><p>Wow what an <span>arrogant</span> piece of work you are.</p><p>Telling people to "Try it or shut up" anytime you don't agree or like their feedback is not "being open to feedback".</p><p>I really do not need to "test" out these changes to see that the overall approach you are taking is not a good one for the game...less options and forcing us into stances are never good design decisions.</p><p>Trying to use AE Tanking -vs- Single Target tanking as the measure of tank "balance" is flawed in every way possible...unless of course you have an enitirely different definition of what "balance" means than we do.</p><p>Perhaps start acting like the professional you should be and set an example instead of acting like a child.</p></blockquote><p>First time I thought I would ever agree with a Guardian</p>

Santi Dominiti
01-08-2009, 09:02 PM
<p>Ah it is nice to see this thread has all ready fallen off of the dev's radar.</p><p>With no exlanation of why the changes are happening...</p>

Troubor
01-08-2009, 09:19 PM
<p><cite>OrcSlayer96 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>To each their own Kordran, but i have always been a paladin that tried to help the healers/raid out on heals/wards, and with the TSO enhancements and AA's it makes it much easier now.  In between autoattacks i toss up my ward, if the group gets nailed with a nasty aoe i toss up a grp heal to help out as it takes 1 sec to cast.  when a large hit brings me down in health i use sacrament of bayle to push my health up 5-6 k, as it is on a 1 sec cast 1min 22 sec recast.  If lay on hands is up a may cast that also, but i prefer sacrament more for the lower power cost and with heal crits the difference in healing is not as much as it should be.  My one heal i dont use as much is the single target one, i will if it looks needed but it is not in my normal rotation usually.  Good luck on staying with the philosophy that heals/wards should only be done in the red, and i will stay with mine for more preventative survival...<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>QFE, Not trying to flame someone who does this differently, but this is almost exactly what I do also. </p><p> Santi Dominiti posted this:</p><p>(Start Quote):"<span ><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span><em>Ah it is nice to see this thread has all ready fallen off of the dev's radar.</em></span></p><p><em> </em></p><p><em>With no exlanation of why the changes are happening</em>..." (End quote).</p><p>Ayep.  What I expected.  So much for what was posted around page 3 or 4 about how this thread will be continued to be read by another developer.  *insert eye roll*.</p><p>I won't quote <a href="mailto:[email protected]'s">[email protected]'s</a> post, but IMO it sums up what I suspect many of us think of Aeralik right now.  I am starting to see that he wants sycophants with regards to testing anything. </p><p>Well, I did do /testcopy.  Sometime next week I'll download the test server version of the client and see if my character has copied over.  Will try to do my alchemist tonight so I have someone to make my new spell.  I'll be a good little boy and see how the changes work.  But I will refuse to be a sycophant, even if that means my comments will fall of deaf, arrogant ears.</p>

denmom
01-08-2009, 10:18 PM
<p>I just did the /testcopy for my newly L80 Paladin to be sent to Test Copy and from what I've read it'll be a bit before the copy over.  I also have Test server on my machine, just waiting for Pheep to be added in...but I've a huge question from what I've been reading in Test and Paladin forums.</p><p>I'd like to ask if I may, Aeralik, could you please give information about what happens when in offensive stance in regards to damage and taunts?  There's a lot flying around, but I'd like to know where it all is so I know what to expect when I get Pheep into Test.</p><p>The reason I ask is this: I run duos with my husband's Warden, his Paladin is with my Warden, we both run guild/friend trios and quad groups, sometimes full groups on overland content.  We both run in offensive except for when we do instances, which is when we shift to defensive.  In our duos, our Paladins do the damage because of how we've spec'd, for spell damage and high spell crit chance.  Pheep can do an average 1100-1300 dps, fight after fight, occasionally peaking over that when the crits go off like mad with her 73% spell crit chance.</p><p>My concern is that we'll not be able to be effective in our gameplay any longer due to the stance changes.  I really hope this isn't the case.  We duo most of the time due to RL with work hours of our friends and guildmates, doing instances and overland runs on weekends.</p><p>I don't mean to sound "chicken little" about the changes, but from what I've read on the notes and the observations of those who are on Test, it seems as tho the changes are limiting a fighter's role to only tank for a full group.  I really hope this isn't the case...the most common thing I have seen through my playing since launch are duos of a tank and a healer and trios of a tank, healer, dps (mage/scout).</p><p>Thank you in advance.</p>

RafaelSmith
01-08-2009, 11:17 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't mean to sound "chicken little" about the changes, but from what I've read on the notes and the observations of those who are on Test, it seems as tho the changes are limiting a fighter's role to only tank for a full group.  I really hope this isn't the case...the most common thing I have seen through my playing since launch are duos of a tank and a healer and trios of a tank, healer, dps (mage/scout).</p><p>Thank you in advance.</p></blockquote><p>Your not alone. There are ALOT of scenarios and playstyles they seem to have ignored/forgotten about with these changes.</p><p>I often duo or mentor down and help low level friends level up.  I those situations my DPS is extremely important so I tank for them in O-stance.  If these changes do what I think they will...I will not be able to keep the aggro and do the DMG in those situations.  Toggling threat to be de-threat in O-stance is the one aspect of all these changes that really pisses me off and honestly makes no sense.</p><p>Even in full group instances I often tank the weak stuff in O-stance...my DPS may not be the best but its way better in O-stance and if I dont need the def bonuses of D-stance...why not help the group keel the weak stuff quicker?  Will not be able to do that anymore because I will be de-aggroing the mobs.</p><p>I often serve as OT on raids...am I suppose to do it in O-stance like I can now and still be ready to grab aggro if the need arises or will the new O-stance be putting me at the bottom of the hate list?</p><p>Its beyond me why the seem to only care about class roles and performance on raids...yet they come out with an expansion that is pretty much entirely geared for groups forgetting that for some of us the role of MT for group is not the same as MT for raid.</p>

Kordran
01-08-2009, 11:31 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I often serve as OT on raids...am I suppose to do it in O-stance like I can now and still be ready to grab aggro if the need arises or will the new O-stance be putting me at the bottom of the hate list?</p></blockquote><p>You can change stances in combat. Switch to defensive, use Holy Ground, hit the mob with Faithful Cry if you have it and the new version of Amends. You're at the top of the hate list. Really, I don't see much of a difference from how things are now in that particular regard. If you're the OT, your only job is to hold aggro long enough for the MT to get back up, rebuff and acquire the mob. The Paladin has plenty of snap aggro tools to do that; Holy Ground alone buys you 12 seconds. No raid with any kind of sense is just going to let the Guardian nap in the dirt and say "Hey, what the heck, let the Paladin finish tanking it... we'll catch ya after we're done."</p>

Stonestrong
01-09-2009, 01:12 AM
<p>Basically Aeralik is trying to implement a stupid change that is not necessary or wanted and posted about it here probably expecting the usual swarm of SOE fanboys  who flock to the chance to suck up to devs. When that didn't happen and it was pointed out to him directly how poorly the community (thats EQ2 not just Paladins btw) think of him, he got buthurt and decided to go bury his head back in the sand.</p><p>Looks like you forgot a long time ago that we are the customers. The people you work for must be oblivious to what this game is about or what the actual players are interested in. Most people that get such bad reviews on their jobs try to get feedback and improve, while you just basically tell everyone to shut up and you are just going to do what you want anyway.</p><p>Hey guys I'm just turning your amends into rescue, I mean don't judge it untill you at least try it!</p>

Rocksthemic
01-09-2009, 01:17 AM
<p>Ok, so I think a basic outline should be made up with our concerns and questions to the changes in amends. First, let us start with why we had amends in the first place.</p><p>Paladins are the only fighter out of 4 (bruiser, monk, sk, paladin) that loses it's ability to attack while healing. Brawlers have mend, etc. which are very quick cast. SK's have lifetaps, and heal themselves for a decent amount, but are doing damage while doing this healing, thus helping them with aggro.</p><p>Paladins do NOTHING but heal when they heal. We stand there waving our arms in the air, hoping the heal will finish casting even with mobs beating on us, while doing no damage, no taunting, etc. This is why we had amends, to help us maintain aggro while using our class according to how SoE DESIGNED the us. We do not have the defensive capabilities of a guardian or zerker, so we were designed to make up for that lack with our heals. TSO changed that balance somewhat... we can cast our heals quicker than ever before, on a quicker refresh timer (except of course our ward, pretty much our first line of healing remained a full 2 seconds instead of being reduced) but even so, without amends, it will become much more difficult to heal and maintain aggro.</p><p>So our concern is that you do not understand why this change was made in the first place, and do not understand exactly what amends was intended for. It was never meant to be an easy button, it was meant to help us maintain aggro while healing ourselves, or our group.</p><p>The second part of the change that concerns many paladins with amends is that we are the only plate fighter without passive aggro generation. SK's get dmg shield AND hate when they get hit, as do beserkers, and gaurdians generate threat when they get hit. Paladins again get nothing. So when we're stifled, stunned, or under any sort of effect where we cannot act, we don't generate any threat while getting hit, cannot help heal ourselves or others as intended, and cannot generate aggro for ourselves with dps or taunts. This is a prevalent effect among MANY group and raid encounters have this mechanic in them to some extent. These changes will often condemn the paladin to sitting around while their group dies.</p><p>The second portion of the concerns seem to be with the paladin defensive stance. Now the question I have is this. Why are paladins the ONLY plate tank without parry as a part of their defensive stance? We are supposed to be single target tanks, on raids this means the MT role. Yet you are expecting us to be viable in this role while giving us less of a defensive capability than any other plate tank, while simutaneously taking away our only viable method of keeping aggro while supplementing our defensive capabilities with heals, once again as we were DESIGNED to do.</p><p>The solution to these problems? The way I see it is first and foremost, the oversight (and believe me I want to have faith that it's an oversight and not a slap in the face) of not having parry in our defensive stance needs to be corrected. There is simply NOT a single reason that we should not have parry in our d-stance. The answer cannot be "because paladins get heals to supplement their lack of defense" Because SK's get heals as well, so do monks and bruisers for that matter.</p><p>The second issue is to PLEASE take a long, hard, look at all the feedback you're getting in regards to amends. Personally offhand I would suggest that you make amends usable under any conditions if you're not going to give us a passive aggro ability (again, EVERY other plate tank has some form of passive aggro generation) and by any conditions I mean stifled, stunned, etc.</p><p>Of course restoring it to it's current conditions but with a nerf on the transfer amount would also be acceptable. Our heals were made to cast faster and re-cast faster, so it's only reasonable to expect a nerf commeasurate with that, considering that's the reason it's there in the first place.</p><p>Whatever you do, please be aware that these changes with hate effect paladins JUST as much, if not more than the other major hate transfer classes, including your own personal class, assassin. We just ask that you put forth the effort into researching the impact these changes will have with the same zeal that you surely put forth into assassin.</p>

Kiljoi
01-09-2009, 01:43 AM
<p>I just had my first run of this on test and frankly I feel terrible. I feel like a divine SK now. I have to spam taunts and ca/spells with threat added to hold any agro and even when i do hate bounces around a lot. A paladin on test plays nothing like the class I have been playing for so many years now. I'm gonna go back this weekend and try to not hate this caz I like my guild and didnt really wanna quit the game. For those of you that are gonna react unreasonably... dont waste your time... I've already heard the "go QQ" and "your just a whiner"... w/e .. this sux and I hate it and I dont usually pay to play a game that I no longer enjoy.</p><p>This is a fundamental change in gameplay and its having a drastically negative effect on my enjoyment of the game.. idk if that means anything but i figured id share it anyways. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Gwarsh
01-09-2009, 01:45 AM
<p>we need passive hate gain like other tanks have, period.  amends was our passive hate gain.  we don't need another rescue, we need something that gives us hate when we are stunned/stifled etc.. as stated above by many others.  Personally i could care less if tank DPS drops to nothing.  It never made sense to me anyway. i'm fine with defensive stance = survivability and hategain, offensive stance =DPS and instadeath if you yank aggro.  but make it fair.  give us the tools to do our jobs. </p>

Anurra
01-09-2009, 02:24 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all. I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that. However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective. When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments.</p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet. Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback.</p></blockquote><p>People have been objective and you've ignored them time and time again. Why should this time be any different? Paladins have complained about some glaring deficiencies for years and nobody has ever even responded and said "hey we'll look into it" or "what don't you like?". I've seen a lot of great suggestions about how to make Paladins unique, fun to play, desired in all aspects of the game and balanced. Not one of them is implemented because they aren't your ideas. That's really setting an example and being objective...so is leaking exploits to your guild so you can get mythicals.</p><p>I'd like to know why you are so above reproach? I'm not trying to stir things up or derail the subject but I think this may be the root of a lot of people's frustrations. A lot of the changes you've made to this game are questionable to a lot of people. The answer is always "you don't see the big picture". That's awfully arrogant and condescending, especially when speaking to paying customers. Communication with the community has always been terrible with SOE. Why is this? Why do you think your players are so stupid that we dont' know what we are talking about? I've seen people on these boards and "others" discover things about this game that even you guys weren't aware of (I'd link to the post about too much INT decreasing power but I'm too lazy to look). That's pretty impressive for a bunch of slack jawed morons who don't "see the big picture".</p><p>Also, don't pull this "test it out or shut up" nonsense. I don't think anyone is paying money to beta test things for you. Hire more people, I'm sure the firing of you and hiring of 4 chimpanzees would equal out in the end. After all, when a monkey throws poo at you, at least they don't try to write it off as a favor.</p></blockquote><p><strong>QFE</strong></p><p>I can deal with losing Amends. I cannot deal with losing PASSIVE aggro generation. If you have done any amount of tanking, especially in TSO, there are a LARGE amount of control affects. I am constantly stifled, stunned, dazed, you name it. <strong>At least make the new amends castable in ANY condition. Nothing should ever prevent the Paladin from casting Amends. </strong>Maybe with the exception of being mezzed.<strong></strong></p><p>Second, parry has been added to the SK defensive stance. A SK is a crusader. Paladins do not have parry on their defensive stance. A Paladin is a crusader. <strong>You need to add parry to the defensive stance for Paladins.</strong></p><p>Thirdly, Amends was a class defining skill. You should jazz it up in some way. People have suggested a temporary group buff. This would be great because it would translate into usefuless in raids.</p><p>Fourthly, we have a lot of AEs. They are sort of useless now while tanking. I guess this is just sort of a statement, but would be nice if a few of them would be a little more useful while in defensive stance. Maybe debuffs or something for encounters /shrugs.</p>

clean
01-09-2009, 02:38 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can deal with losing Amends. I cannot deal with losing PASSIVE aggro generation. If you have done any amount of tanking, especially in TSO, there are a LARGE amount of control affects. I am constantly stifled, stunned, dazed, you name it. <strong>At least make the new amends castable in ANY condition. Nothing should ever prevent the Paladin from casting Amends. </strong>Maybe with the exception of being mezzed.<strong></strong></p><p>Second, parry has been added to the SK defensive stance. A SK is a crusader. Paladins do not have parry on their defensive stance. A Paladin is a crusader. <strong>You need to add parry to the defensive stance for Paladins.</strong></p><p>Thirdly, Amends was a class defining skill. You should jazz it up in some way. People have suggested a temporary group buff. This would be great because it would translate into usefuless in raids.</p><p>Fourthly, we have a lot of AEs. They are sort of useless now while tanking. I guess this is just sort of a statement, but would be nice if a few of them would be a little more useful while in defensive stance. Maybe debuffs or something for encounters /shrugs.</p></blockquote><p>I'm with you.</p>

Kiljoi
01-09-2009, 02:41 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </p><p>I am open to feedback but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p></blockquote><p>People have been objective and you've ignored them time and time again. Why should this time be any different? Paladins have complained about some glaring deficiencies for years and nobody has ever even responded and said "hey we'll look into it" or "what don't you like?".  I've seen a lot of great suggestions about how to make Paladins unique, fun to play, desired in all aspects of the game and balanced. Not one of them is implemented because they aren't your ideas. That's really setting an example and being objective...so is leaking exploits to your guild so you can get mythicals.</p><p>I'd like to know why you are so above reproach? I'm not trying to stir things up or derail the subject but I think this may be the root of a lot of people's frustrations. A lot of the changes you've made to this game are questionable to a lot of people. The answer is always "you don't see the big picture". That's awfully arrogant and condescending, especially when speaking to paying customers. Communication with the community has always been terrible with SOE. Why is this? Why do you think your players are so stupid that we dont' know what we are talking about? I've seen people on these boards and "others" discover things about this game that even you guys weren't aware of (I'd link to the post about too much INT decreasing power but I'm too lazy to look). That's pretty impressive for a bunch of slack jawed morons who don't "see the big picture".</p><p>Also, don't pull this "test it out or shut up" nonsense. I don't think anyone is paying money to beta test things for you. Hire more people, I'm sure the firing of you and hiring of 4 chimpanzees would equal out in the end. After all, when a monkey throws poo at you, at least they don't try to write it off as a favor.</p></blockquote><p>I can say that this seems to be pretty representative of how many people have felt for a long time and I'm not just referring to paladins. </p><p>Are these changes expected to draw more subscribers??? I dont see it.</p>

Niou
01-09-2009, 03:42 AM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the <strong>real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </strong></p><p><strong>I am open to feedback</strong> but I guarantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing through it and then writing up some feedback. </p></blockquote><p>It's very simple to be objective about this, and numerous Paladin's have done so in this thread. You said you were going to change us into Single Target Tanks, while SK's and Zerkers became the AoE tanks. Many, if not all Paladin's accept this. Why? Because its inevitable, you will do as you please, and our feedback can only hope to change things surrounding the issue, not the issue itself.</p><p>With that said, You need to understand that Paladin's for the most part are not upset over the change of us being moved to single target tanks. We are upset because we are being moved into a role without the proper tools to fill it.</p><p>How hard is this for you to see?</p><p>SK- AoE Tank</p><p>Zerker- AoE Tank</p><p>Paladin- Single Target Tank without Stoneskin capability's.</p><p>Guardian- Single Target Tank With Stoneskin capability's.</p><p>Now, if Paladin and Guardian are the same, how do you determine who has a place in the raid? Thats right, you go with who has the best defensive capability's. Why? <strong>Because agro is not just about maintaining hate, its about surviving the hate that you have attained.</strong></p><p>I hope you're finally being able to grasp why some people are upset. It's because you seem to be blind to an issue that a raiding Paladin took a single glance at and recongnized for the doom it represented to the class.</p><p>One last time,</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">It's NOT about HATE, it's about SURVIVABILITY.</span></strong></span></p><p>Give us the tools to be single target tanks, and we'll be more than glad to be. Do not however, throw garbage at us about having great hate and expect us to be blind to the fact that our position as tanks in the game has changed completely.</p>

Kiljoi
01-09-2009, 11:23 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to say it one last time, if you can't be objective about this change then don't post at all.  I realize you guys don't like the change and I understand that.  However, making comments about me being fired or whatever because you see things are changing is not objective.  When you spam a bunch of reactionary posts without even trying things out then you make it hard to find the <strong>real feedback that will lead to adjustments. </strong></p><p><strong>I am open to feedback</strong> but I guathrough it and then writing up some feedback. rantee few of you that are going ballistic have really even tried it out or really looked at all the adjustments yet.  Instead of getting yourself in trouble with the mods, I would recommend stepping back and looking at all the changes and if possible playing</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong><span style="color: #ff6600;">It's NOT about HATE, it's about SURVIVABILITY.</span></strong></span></p><p>Give us the tools to be single target tanks, and we'll be more than glad to be.</p></blockquote><p>I am disgruntled about being told that I now have a Single Target type tank when I've been playing an AOE tank for over 4 years.  I agree with you that we lack the tools necessary to be as effective MTs as a guardian.  I guess its too bad so sad for those of us who enjoyed being a strong OT on multiple mob add encounters. (maybe we can talk aerilik into giving us a free betrayal card that gives us our equivalent in patterns/mythical/master spells - sad that im even thinking about this but i really liked being an AOE agro [Removed for Content] lol).</p><p>I would say more so then either one of those, that my biggest problem is the way of playing a paladin is so much different and unenjoyable.  Some people like to spam buttons... I dont.  I like managing multiple factors in a raid w/o having to spam taunt/ca/spell (also enjoyed timing auto attacks).  I dont know if this makes sense but some of my fav elements of raiding as a paladin are gone in gu51.  Perhaps some help with passive agro would make this a bit less painful.</p><p>I always felt amends helped us hold agro because we would have to stop and heal ourselves combined with the amount of detrimentals with interrupt and incapacitating effects that stick to us in fights.</p><p>As an OT (fill in MT) I really enjoyed managing agro.  I liked being able to amend a top parsing scout to let them open up a bit more w/o getting one shotted or amend a warlock and own the waves of enemies coming to kill the squishies.  I liked taking over agro when something bad went down and then being able to give it back to the MT so effectively.</p><p>KEEP PASSIVE AGRO in 09!!  (maybe a lower percentage amends - it was great fun being a team with another dps to lockdown mob/mobs)</p>

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM
01-09-2009, 11:39 AM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate and should have the tools to do that.</p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary you go play one on test copy and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Even with amends aggro control was hard enough if you had people parsing about the same. If you're going to nerf amends like this you have to make the recast on sigil much, much shorter. Spike damage dps could still pull hate off you even if they didn't parse the same as your amends target.</p><p>Honestly if I wanted to play a guardian, I would be playing my guardian...a change to amends like this and the rest of the changes to our hate basically makes us a gimped guardian.</p><p>Thanks, but I think I'll just play WoW instead. At least you have the option of spec'ing to what it is you want to do there instead of being forced into 1 role, and as it looks now, our role is now useless.</p>

Kiljoi
01-09-2009, 11:44 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate and should have the tools to do that.</p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary you go play one on test copy and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Even with amends aggro control was hard enough if you had people parsing about the same. If you're going to nerf amends like this you have to make the recast on sigil much, much shorter. Spike damage dps could still pull hate off you even if they didn't parse the same as your amends target.</p><p>Honestly if I wanted to play a guardian, I would be playing my guardian...a change to amends like this and the rest of the changes to our hate basically makes us a gimped guardian.</p><p>Thanks, but I think I'll just play WoW instead. At least you have the option of spec'ing to what it is you want to do there instead of being forced into 1 role, and as it looks now, our role is now useless.</p></blockquote><p>Here here</p>

Maveric_LOL
01-09-2009, 11:45 AM
<p>we should start a save the pallies petition you never know, if these changes dont get tweaked, it may very well turn into 'the list of retired pallies'. Either way might be a good idea to show them not just that we are annoyed, but how many of us are annoyed.</p>

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM
01-09-2009, 11:54 AM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Are you kidding? In an instance or raid, it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's what the healers are there for. My job is to hold aggro. Period. Heals don't really help do that, since they don't even have a 1:1 threat ratio.</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">You really think that ward is going to make a difference when you're getting spiked with back to back crits for 8-10K damage by a named? And forget raids. That ward and our heals are a <em>joke</em> when it comes to raid mobs.</span></strong></p></blockquote><p>QFE</p><p>Our heals have been useless for a long time, too long to cast, too little healed, our ward has been useless for a long time as well since it only will mitigate 1 hit, and not even very well at that.</p>

Mahgnus
01-09-2009, 12:07 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Imma not sure how to respond to you post then you simply arent a very good Paladin. It's clear you havent noticed the reduction in the cast time we were givin to our heals that allow them to be effectively used. With that being said, the ward easly makes up anywhere to 7-12 % of my zw heals. By not chain castin your most important castable <span>defensive ability your limiting you ability to keep yourself alive period.</span></p></blockquote><p>Are you kidding? In an instance or raid, it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's what the healers are there for. My job is to hold aggro. Period. Heals don't really help do that, since they don't even have a 1:1 threat ratio.</p><p>Who in the world cares what your ZW heals are, when you're in an instance like PoF and the healer is healing for 4+ million points of damage? At best, you're maybe doing about 5-10% of the total ZW heal parse and you're looking at 7-12% of <em>that</em>? You really think that ward is going to make a difference when you're getting spiked with back to back crits for 8-10K damage by a named? And forget raids. That ward and our heals are a <em>joke</em> when it comes to raid mobs.</p><p>So instead of spending your power on making sure that mob is stuck to you, you're waving your hands in the air to try and heal yourself? And you're saying I'm not a good Paladin. Good freakin' grief. If you're worried about survivabilty, get better gear and/or find better healers.</p></blockquote><p>And we wonder why we our class has problems when there noobs such as this that fail to see the fundamental concepts of our class.</p>

Anarissa
01-09-2009, 12:12 PM
<p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Mahgnus wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Imma not sure how to respond to you post then you simply arent a very good Paladin. It's clear you havent noticed the reduction in the cast time we were givin to our heals that allow them to be effectively used. With that being said, the ward easly makes up anywhere to 7-12 % of my zw heals. By not chain castin your most important castable <span>defensive ability your limiting you ability to keep yourself alive period.</span></p></blockquote><p>Are you kidding? In an instance or raid, it's not my job to keep myself alive, that's what the healers are there for. My job is to hold aggro. Period. Heals don't really help do that, since they don't even have a 1:1 threat ratio.</p><p>Who in the world cares what your ZW heals are, when you're in an instance like PoF and the healer is healing for 4+ million points of damage? At best, you're maybe doing about 5-10% of the total ZW heal parse and you're looking at 7-12% of <em>that</em>? You really think that ward is going to make a difference when you're getting spiked with back to back crits for 8-10K damage by a named? And forget raids. That ward and our heals are a <em>joke</em> when it comes to raid mobs.</p><p>So instead of spending your power on making sure that mob is stuck to you, you're waving your hands in the air to try and heal yourself? And you're saying I'm not a good Paladin. Good freakin' grief. If you're worried about survivabilty, get better gear and/or find better healers.</p></blockquote><p>And we wonder why we our class has problems when there noobs such as this that fail to see the fundamental concepts of our class.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #33cccc;"><span style="font-size: small;">QFE Mag, as I stated elsewhere, idiots will always rise to the top when struggle occurs. Here we have a huge struggle, and even huger fools, so, the Peter Principle goes into effect. All we can hope for is the statements of the relatively intelligent and actually capable paladins here are heard. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #33cccc;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">P. S. - I often OT when we need one, and our latest traverse into ToMC had some unexpected turns. Grabbing the first named, my job is to peel the two helpers and let the raid burn them while our Guard holds the name. Simple, right? My rotation is basic, ward, taunt, hit, cast, heal ( if necessary ), and rinse and repeat. Well, for some odd reason, the Guard goes down, and I get everything. I'm holding while he's rezzed and buffed</span></span></span><span style="color: #00ccff;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">, he grabs back, same thing occurs, this</span></span></span> <span style="color: #33cccc;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">happens 5 more times. Amazingly, or not so for those who actually use all their tools, I'm standing thru all this until the name is dead. Good thing I don't use my heals and wards, huh?? </span></span><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">It's as much the tanks job to STAY alive as it is the healers to keep them, that being said, you use EVERY tool available at your disposal, or you're not really worth playing the class. Have a nice day!!</span></span></span></p>

Boli32
01-09-2009, 12:37 PM
<p>As I have proved time and time again; with parse after parse after parse; played right use of our heals effecitivly gives us a 20% damage reduction; i.e. we heal 20% of our incoming damage by ourself; that's more time for the healers to spot spamming direct heals (and if you have *ever* played a healer you'll know this is the least manaeffcient/cost effcient way of keepign a tank up) and allows them more time to concentrate on keepign their special heals up; cure and debuff. and hell we even help out with cure spam; so its easier to keep a group alive.</p><p>Healer LOVE grouping with me... why?... I made it an easy job to heal me; so when it came to the tough instances/named in raids/whatever and I only bring a single healer... well they'll know they can kepe me upright because I'm not tanking in a vacumm I contructivly help the healers keeping me healed as much as I helped the dps with controling agro.</p><p>I call that pro active tanking.. there is no such think as amends and AFK.. there there was for pally... were were intially given less defence than guards (and indeed every other tank) because we did not NEED to constantly spam buttons to hold agro and were involved in our own healing and defence allowing us to tank harder mobs, stay upright longer and come through shining.</p><p>Ask *any* high level paladin if they use their heals... in a serious way for tankign the hard stuff; I'll wager everyone does and it kept us alive... ignoreing such an important part of the class is just ludicrous; and what this amends change means to us is somethign far more important than just not being able to hold agro rock solid... its the fact that we have NO passive hate gain at all... which means constant spamming *just* to even consider holding agro; I've tanked like that on many memwiping mobs before but can I use an INTERGRAL PART OF MY CLASS doing so.. i.e. heal and cure myself... no I cannot which means I take far more damage; and without any "saves" or defence to the class at all in this update we have basically been gimped both in surviability and agro control all in one fell swoop.. which are the two cornershtones of tanking.</p><p>Fun.</p>

Kiljoi
01-09-2009, 12:44 PM
<p>sidetracked from the issue because noobs think we shouldnt heal, ... as if we dont have enough of an uphill battle to save ourselves from utter nerfage.</p><p>id like to see a lil inc in heals to add to their effectiveness (our survivability) but maybe i'm asking for too much idk.  im fine with having to rely on them more.. infact it seems more challenging and fun (a more dynamic experience) .. maybe an aa that permantly makes us resistant to interrupts instead of the low % chance at the end of the agi line.</p><p>survivability isnt really my focus however... its the agro</p><p>KEEP PASSIVE AGRO ALIVE in 09! (dont taketh away amends puhleez!)</p>

Zapat
01-09-2009, 12:53 PM
<p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">so uhhh.... the SK line is this way right?<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" width="18" height="23" /></span></p>

denmom
01-09-2009, 01:35 PM
<p>I fully understand the need for defensive stance when in a raid or instance.  My unease and concern isn't that.</p><p>It's <em><strong>offensive</strong></em> stance.</p><p>I'm seeing many Paladins who duo or trio, as I and my husband do with our Paladins, <strong><em>very</em></strong> concerned and rightfully so about the new changes to offensive stance and our attacks.</p><p>If every attack becomes a detriment in offensive stance, which I would be in for higher int and str as the primary damage dealer, that essentially forces me to be in defensive mode just to be <em><strong>able</strong></em> to attack efficiently in the duo or trio.</p><p>I am concerned about the Amends line.  According to the screen caps I've seen, it's now a <strong><em>spell</em></strong>.  That means it'll be interrupted when the Paladin moves and not so effective unless standing still in a fight.  I know I move around to position mobs for my aoes.  Sometimes I have to move to the mage or healer or scout if one gets away from me as can happen when I have a batch of non-linked mobs and haven't hit Sigil yet.</p><p>Pheep isn't yet on Test, I just checked this morning.  Hopefully she'll be there later today so I can run a test of my usual gameplay and give feedback.</p>

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM
01-09-2009, 01:53 PM
<p>Our ward and heals have been pretty useless since EoF.</p><p>I have not seen my ward last longer than 1 hit since KoS. Solo mobs 1 shot our ward now. Our heals are so minor it's a joke, even at master level. Even with a cast time reduction, they're useless unless you're soloing, and even solo they're kinda useless, and mostly a waste of power. The only heal I've ever used MTing a raid is my Lay on Hands, and well, half the time the healers catch up about the same time I click the ability. My ward is pretty much gone within 2 seconds unless there's a mystic or defiler in the group.</p><p>RoK changed the dynamic of survivability from mitigation and resists to avoidance, which we suck at to begin with. Now it's crit mitigation. My only concern when tanking was aggro control. I've tried tanking with a group full of mythical dps and it was a <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">challenge</span></strong> keeping aggro. I don't have my myth b/c my ex guild sucked at raiding and we never got past T2 and I'll be damned if I'm going to buy it.</p><p>At least we had some utility to keep the dps alive when not MTing, and could generally hold aggro pretty decently when MTing, now it's pretty much spam spam spam and pray that squishie doesn't die.</p><p>The best suggestion at this point, since you want to make all tanks the same is delete zerks, delete sks and delete paladins and make one class called "tank"...since that's the way this is going anyways.</p><p>I dealt with our lack of survivability compared to guardians and was content to be what I was, nerfing amends like this makes it pretty pointless to even consider continuing to play my paladin, when now guardians will have the upper hand once again, just like it was pre LU13. Paladins were viable tanks finally after LU13, now we're back where we started.</p><p>It wouldn't be so bad if you could change your role, be a healadin if you wanted to heal, be a tankadin if you wanted to tank or actually really dps if you wanted to play dps. As it stands we're now mediocre no matter what we do.</p><p>So when does guardian survivability get brought into line with Paladin survivability? If you don't want Paladins to tank then just get rid of us or make us DPS...don't hold the carrot out there and make us chase it.</p><p>The more they mess with stuff the worse this game gets....with the last xpac it turned into "you have to have xxx class to even consider completing this zone" how much fun is it sitting around for 2 hours looking for the right group setup? At this point, people won't even bother with a gimped tank like a pally and just go find a guardian. I fought long and hard to end up MTing raids b/c people still think guardians are far superior. We now have nothing that gives us some sort of boost to be able to stand up to the mythical end all be all guardian tank. I never complained, I adapted, but this is just rediculous.</p><p>Stop nerfing classes to make up for the disavantage of other classes and fix the ones that are broken instead of punishing the classes that are the object of another's jealousy. If you had simply tweaked SKs a bit to have aggro control similar to a Paladin you wouldn't have to nerf the only things that actually made us a viable tank. I've been a fanboi for almost 5 years, at this point I am so utterly disapointed in the floundering done to create any type of balance that I don't think I'll ever have the same opinion I had of this game.</p><p>The changes that are being made to EQ2 to emulate WoW's mechanics always seem to come up short....how long did it take to start doing daily "missions" when WoW had dailies for a long time? The achievements fall way short of coming close to the customization you have with the talent trees in WoW...the purchasing of fabled gear for "tokens" that you get from instances gets implemented long after WoW already had them...the only saving grace of EQ2 at this point is the stupid appearance slot, housing and broker fluff IMO. I think I'll just stick to my retribution paladin and pvp, since they're actually more enjoyable to play than this mess.</p><p>I've always been pretty good about not being overly critical about changes made to eq2, and tried to be helpful, but this is about the end of the line for me.</p>

denmom
01-09-2009, 02:21 PM
<p>I went looking for more info, and found screenshots of some of the Paladin offensive stance as a M1.</p><p>I remember looking at the Shadow tree in beta of TSO and thinking how some of what was there would make Pheep into a hellacious damage monster once I got the points for them.  But now, after seeing what offensive stance takes away, it seems as tho what's happened is Paladins are being scaled back but need AAs to scale back up/compensate for what's taken away.  Especially if the Paladin is spec'd for damage.</p><p>I've said before that Pheep has an odd spec.  I run in offensive.  I've 4 pieces of caster jewelry, Devout armour save for 3 pieces of Sanctification.  I've Cloak of Flames, run with int and str food/drink.  Str line, Wis line, and Int line down to spell crits.  She has a 73% spell crit chance.  I do an average 1100-1300 dps.</p><p>Pheep is a spelltank.  She's the main damage in our duos, which are 90% of the playtime I have with my husband.  Changing out offensive stance to it's current state severely hinders our gameplay.  We'll have to go for PUGs (which we don't care for) or wait until late at night when all of our small guild is online and then run, and that will hinder how much time we have to play at night, which is a small bit of time as it is given my husband's work schedule.</p><p>I'm trying to show that not all Paladins raid, not all run in full six man groups.  Many who aren't on the forums are solo, duo, or trio tanks.  The changes appear to force us into being defensive tanks and ruins how we play.</p><p>I hope I'm wrong and that it's just the unknown making me uneasy.  As I've said, Pheep's not yet on Test.</p>

Kordran
01-09-2009, 02:21 PM
<p><cite>Anarissa wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #33cccc;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;"></span></span></span><span style="color: #33cccc;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">Amazingly, or not so for those who actually use all their tools, I'm standing thru all this until the name is dead. Good thing I don't use my heals and wards, huh?? </span></span><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">It's as much the tanks job to STAY alive as it is the healers to keep them, that being said, you use EVERY tool available at your disposal, or you're not really worth playing the class. Have a nice day!!</span></span></span></p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I'm sure that ~1500 ward really saved the day for you. In fact, I'm sure those healers were saying "I didn't know if we could keep that Paladin up or not, but his wards, man those really did the trick!" Please.</p><p>And for those of you who are hard of reading, I never said that a Paladin should <em><strong>never</strong></em> use their wards/heals. I said that I don't see the benefit of giving them <em><strong>priority in the rotation</strong></em>. Of course it's a judgement call. If you have healer(s) struggling to keep you up, then use them, they're there. But your primary job is not to keep yourself healed; it's to hold the mob. If the healer(s) are keeping you up without a problem, why in the world take the time and spend the power spamming your ward every time it's up when you could be <em><strong>hitting the mob</strong></em> instead?</p><p>Paladins are not battle clerics.</p>

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM
01-09-2009, 03:26 PM
<p>BTW we didn't need more upfront hate, that's what Heroic Dash and Goading Gesture was for. I liked the hate over time of our taunts, it helped when stunned/stifled/otherwise busy...we need up front mitigation more than up front hate...</p><p>If amends is going to be the least bit useful still the recast on it needs to be 20 seconds, in balance to the lower recast, lower the hate generated...if it's going to stay single target hate gen then sigil also needs to be reduced to like 20s recast...there are no encounters that last longer than a minute in this game outside of raiding, having that long of a recast on amends and the 2.5 minute recast or whatever it is on sigil is just pretty much pointless.</p>

PolarBear77
01-09-2009, 03:34 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Yeah, I'm sure that ~1500 ward really saved the day for you. In fact, I'm sure those healers were saying "I didn't know if we could keep that Paladin up or not, but his wards, man those really did the trick!" Please.</p><p>And for those of you who are hard of reading, I never said that a Paladin should <em><strong>never</strong></em> use their wards/heals. I said that I don't see the benefit of giving them <em><strong>priority in the rotation</strong></em>. Of course it's a judgement call. If you have healer(s) struggling to keep you up, then use them, they're there. But your primary job is not to keep yourself healed; it's to hold the mob. If the healer(s) are keeping you up without a problem, why in the world take the time and spend the power spamming your ward every time it's up when you could be <em><strong>hitting the mob</strong></em> instead?</p><p>Paladins are not battle clerics.</p></blockquote><p>Ignorant stupidity like this is the reason these carebear Paladin forums are dead and the Flames ones are alive and well</p>

Tharinor Degaulle
01-09-2009, 03:55 PM
<p>I really don't understand this set of changes in general.  It would be one thing if SOE were designing a new MMORPG and this was how they were going to design tanking for their new game.  However, this game is 5 years old and we're getting ready to do some massive change to the fundamental mechanics of aggro management in the game.</p><p>Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing about this update makes good business sense.  It is NOT going to bring SOE more customers, and it's very likely to drive customers away.  In today's economy, at what point did it become a good idea to SOE to /wrist and start bleeding subscriptions?</p><p>I'm sure the developers take pride in their work, whether appreciated by the player base or not, but as a customer I'm not in the business of getting my nose dirty while I sniff your rectum.  I'm glad that you take pride in your work, and it's important that you do both to yourself and to me and the rest of the customers.  However, I feel like SOE is losing sight of their own "big picture" which should have been, at the very least, sustaining their player base and hopefully growing it, not shrinking it.  This update feels like LU13 all over again, or even the SWG update that killed that community.  As a paying customer for most of 5+ years now, I feel betrayed.  If I wanted a prostate exam, I'd go to a doctor, and with that said, "no thanks" to this update.</p>

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM
01-09-2009, 03:58 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>However, I feel like SOE is losing sight of their own "big picture" which should have been, at the very least, sustaining their player base and hopefully growing it, not shrinking it. </p></blockquote><p>That started when Scott Hartsman left.</p>

denmom
01-09-2009, 04:11 PM
<p>Reposting this from the main thread to here just in case.</p><p>As of this post, my Paladin is yet not on Test.  I cannot yet give proper feedback on the changes.</p><p>My husband and I were discussing what the new changes will mean for our Paladin/Warden duos.</p><p>The Paladin, who does the primary damage, will have a very large handicap.  The group taunt, Excoriation, is the Paladin's divine mitigation debuff.  When in offensive stance, that becomes a <em><strong>detaunt.</strong></em></p><p>Yes, we could not use it, but that again would handicap our damage, making it harder to take down the mobs.</p><p>The other effect of offensive stance in our duos is what it does to the role of the Warden.</p><p>While in offensive stance, the Warden must not attack at all and given how healer aggro acts, the times of heavy healing may be problematic.</p><p>While in defensive stance, the Warden must attack far more than is usual in our duos to make up for the lack of the damage by the Paladin.</p><p>Speaking as one who does duo and trio, the detaunts in offensive stance for our Paladins are rather detrimental.  Could it be possible to change the taunts back to their original effect while in offensive mode?</p>

Kordran
01-09-2009, 04:22 PM
<p><cite>PolarBear77 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ignorant stupidity like this is the reason these carebear Paladin forums are dead and the Flames ones are alive and well</p></blockquote><p>So educate me. If the healer or healers are not having a problem keeping you up, what exactly is the benefit of spamming your ward? It doesn't free them up to cure/debuff more because that 1.5K ward is not going to mitigate even a single hit from an RoK/TSO mob, even the trash. The healers are still going to have to push those heal buttons. "Because you can" doesn't seem to be particuarly compelling argument to just spam heals/wards as part of a normal combat rotation. The cost/benefit ratio (in terms of time and power v. the amount warded/healed) just doesn't seem to backup what you're saying.</p><p>Edit: And if you actually read the Flames forums for Paladins, you'll see it repeatedly stated how the Paladin's heals are too small and consume too much power to build a viable "healadin" spec, even if you dumped all your AA points into the lines that help with healing. The Paladin's heals are great for helping out in a pinch or when taking on a particularly tough mob, but just constantly using them in your normal rotation seems like a waste of time and power to me.</p>

denmom
01-09-2009, 04:23 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Anarissa wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="color: #33cccc;"><span style="font-size: small;"></span></span><span style="color: #33cccc;"><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">Amazingly, or not so for those who actually use all their tools, I'm standing thru all this until the name is dead. Good thing I don't use my heals and wards, huh?? </span></span><span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">It's as much the tanks job to STAY alive as it is the healers to keep them, that being said, you use EVERY tool available at your disposal, or you're not really worth playing the class. Have a nice day!!</span></span></span></p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I'm sure that ~1500 ward really saved the day for you. In fact, I'm sure those healers were saying "I didn't know if we could keep that Paladin up or not, but his wards, man those really did the trick!" Please.</p><p>And for those of you who are hard of reading, I never said that a Paladin should <em><strong>never</strong></em> use their wards/heals. I said that I don't see the benefit of giving them <em><strong>priority in the rotation</strong></em>. Of course it's a judgement call. If you have healer(s) struggling to keep you up, then use them, they're there. But your primary job is not to keep yourself healed; it's to hold the mob. If the healer(s) are keeping you up without a problem, why in the world take the time and spend the power spamming your ward every time it's up when you could be <em><strong>hitting the mob</strong></em> instead?</p><p>Paladins are not battle clerics.</p></blockquote><p>Okay, speaking as the main healer, L80 Warden with epic and spec'd for heal and power, in groups with a Paladin MT...</p><p><strong><em>Yes,</em></strong> the ward is a <em><strong>big</strong></em> help.  I can tell during a harsh fight in CoA, VoES, Maiden's, and any of the TSO instances when the ward is up and dong its job.  It makes it easier for my Warden and the Templar, when we need one in the harsher instances.</p><p>There have been many times when I'm single healing an instance, see one of the others in the group drop in health due to a repop or roaming add, have to drop to them to bring them back up, and the Paladin would heal themselves with either Lay on Hands or Sacrament to hold their hp while I hop back to them.</p><p>We have run groups with a Zerker tanking, Paladin OT, and the use of the ward on the Zerker is a huge difference in the damage they take.</p><p>There have been times when someone started to drop in health and the Paladin has caught them with a Lay on Hands.</p><p>When I tank with my Paladin, I admit to not using my ward with green or blue content.  Usually when I've a large group will I.  Or taking on yellow content or doing an instance.  I've also used my heals in the same manner as listed above.</p><p>/sigh  Look guys...we're all tense, upset, angry, etc with all this...but please, can we just not fight?  It's not going to help us at all in this to get changes made that will be for the better.</p><p>/sighs again, impatiently waiting for Pheep to show up on Test</p>

Azurro
01-09-2009, 04:39 PM
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It seems to me like SOE is trying to strip all the real skill out of this game and replace it with random button mashing.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>It’s easy to see how well that has worked out for games like Tabula Rasa.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Unless I’m button mashing I have to make a careful choice between what I am going to do in those precious seconds between auto attack swings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Do I heal? Do I cast a taunt of two?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Do I need to AOE?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>or do I have time to get off a couple CA’s?</span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Amends give Paladins the breathing room to use our wards/heals.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Without it they might as well replace those abilities with “fun” spells because they will be just about as useful.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Or at the very least make our ward 10 times more powerful and put it on a 2 minute recast timer since the only time we will be able to use it is before the pull anyway.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I am by far not the best Paladin in this game and have a lot more room to improve.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>However I have played on other toons with really bad Paladins and I know for a fact that amends in its current form can’t make up for a bad player.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>To me an overpowered ability isn’t one that really good players can use to excel at but rather one that really bad players can use to get by on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>By that definition Amends is not overpowered in its current form.</span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">But if SOE really feels they need to make this change how about adding hate to our heals/wards?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Maybe something equivalent to the hate I would get by using Verdict which has close to the same casting time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Or even better hate plus make our ward a percentage of our total health rather then a fixed amount that scales to near useless when your raid buffed to over 20k Hit Points.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>How about making amends a proc on any heal/ca/spell?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>There are tons of ways they could achieve the stated goal of making the player more responsible for their own agro without turning using into button mashers or effectively removing a third of our abilities by making it impossible to have the time to ever cast them.</span></p>

denmom
01-09-2009, 04:39 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PolarBear77 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ignorant stupidity like this is the reason these carebear Paladin forums are dead and the Flames ones are alive and well</p></blockquote><p>So educate me. If the healer or healers are not having a problem keeping you up, what exactly is the benefit of spamming your ward? It doesn't free them up to cure/debuff more because that 1.5K ward is not going to mitigate even a single hit from an RoK/TSO mob, even the trash. The healers are still going to have to push those heal buttons. "Because you can" doesn't seem to be particuarly compelling argument to just spam heals/wards as part of a normal combat rotation. The cost/benefit ratio (in terms of time and power v. the amount warded/healed) just doesn't seem to backup what you're saying.</p></blockquote><p>Speaking as a healer, it doesn't hold all the damage off the Paladin, no, but it <strong><em>helps.</em></strong></p><p>My role as Warden is to heal and cure first, cast my heat/cold debuff second for the Wizard and other heat/cold attacks in group, then get back to healing, debuff, wash rinse repeat.</p><p>I know my husband's Paladin will have the ward up on the pull.  I set off a group heal to offset the initial damage, as that's running  its HoTs I cast my debuff, then pick up on heals.  When my debuff runs out, I time a group heal on when the ward is next cast, set off the debuff, back to heals.</p><p>We run with both Wiz and Warlock, Amends is on the Wiz for single targets, Warlock for groups.  When the one who is un-Amended pulls a bit too much aggro, the ward goes on them and helps while I get their health back up.</p><p>There have been times in our duos when my Warden will get aggro even when I don't preheal or attack.  The ward goes on me for the few moments it takes to get the mob off me.</p><p>I've done similar with my own Paladin in groups.</p><p>So there is a good use for the ward as a cushion.  A good use for the heals to help out.</p><p>I'm not arguing, just giving a view from the healer side. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

denmom
01-09-2009, 04:44 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really don't understand this set of changes in general.  It would be one thing if SOE were designing a new MMORPG and this was how they were going to design tanking for their new game.  However, this game is 5 years old and we're getting ready to do some massive change to the fundamental mechanics of aggro management in the game.</p><p>Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing about this update makes good business sense.  It is NOT going to bring SOE more customers, and it's very likely to drive customers away.  In today's economy, at what point did it become a good idea to SOE to /wrist and start bleeding subscriptions?</p><p>I'm sure the developers take pride in their work, whether appreciated by the player base or not, but as a customer I'm not in the business of getting my nose dirty while I sniff your rectum.  I'm glad that you take pride in your work, and it's important that you do both to yourself and to me and the rest of the customers.  However, I feel like SOE is losing sight of their own "big picture" which should have been, at the very least, sustaining their player base and hopefully growing it, not shrinking it.  This update feels like LU13 all over again, or even the SWG update that killed that community.  As a paying customer for most of 5+ years now, I feel betrayed.  If I wanted a prostate exam, I'd go to a doctor, and with that said, "no thanks" to this update.</p></blockquote><p>Heh, LU 13's when I retired my Paladin the first time.  Then the new progression made me dust her off and I've had great fun since.</p><p>When I saw the changes this time around, that was my first thot, LU 13 reared its ugly head <strong><em>again.</em></strong>  I really don't want to put her back into the crafting stable as the retired Paladin who's the Alchemist again. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

Kordran
01-09-2009, 05:10 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know my husband's Paladin will have the ward up on the pull. I set off a group heal to offset the initial damage, as that's running its HoTs I cast my debuff, then pick up on heals. When my debuff runs out, I time a group heal on when the ward is next cast, set off the debuff, back to heals.</p></blockquote><p>And that's perfectly reasonable, but that's not what I was addressing. There's those who believe that the Paladin should constantly prioritize warding/healing himself as part of his normal spell rotation. That's what I disagree with. I see the Paladin's heals as more situational; use them when needed, but not as a normal course of action. Warding yourself when you're in the green means that you've spent time that could otherwise have been used to hit the mob.</p>

PolarBear77
01-09-2009, 05:26 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>PolarBear77 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ignorant stupidity like this is the reason these carebear Paladin forums are dead and the Flames ones are alive and well</p></blockquote><p>So educate me. If the healer or healers are not having a problem keeping you up, what exactly is the benefit of spamming your ward? It doesn't free them up to cure/debuff more because that 1.5K ward is not going to mitigate even a single hit from an RoK/TSO mob, even the trash. The healers are still going to have to push those heal buttons. "Because you can" doesn't seem to be particuarly compelling argument to just spam heals/wards as part of a normal combat rotation. The cost/benefit ratio (in terms of time and power v. the amount warded/healed) just doesn't seem to backup what you're saying.</p><p>Edit: And if you actually read the Flames forums for Paladins, you'll see it repeatedly stated how the Paladin's heals are too small and consume too much power to build a viable "healadin" spec, even if you dumped all your AA points into the lines that help with healing. The Paladin's heals are great for helping out in a pinch or when taking on a particularly tough mob, but just constantly using them in your normal rotation seems like a waste of time and power to me.</p></blockquote><p>[Edited to remove the link -- Sorry folks, whilst it's just fine to refer someone to the proper location for continued discussion on this topic, I can't permit the link since the language over there isn't in keeping with the PG/PG-13 deal we have working here. Thanks for your understanding! -- Kiara]</p><p>Post that dribble there and see the reponce you get when ppl explain to you why your bucket of fail</p>

denmom
01-09-2009, 05:39 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I know my husband's Paladin will have the ward up on the pull. I set off a group heal to offset the initial damage, as that's running its HoTs I cast my debuff, then pick up on heals. When my debuff runs out, I time a group heal on when the ward is next cast, set off the debuff, back to heals.</p></blockquote><p>And that's perfectly reasonable, but that's not what I was addressing. There's those who believe that the Paladin should constantly prioritize warding/healing himself as part of his normal spell rotation. That's what I disagree with. I see the Paladin's heals as more situational; use them when needed, but not as a normal course of action. Warding yourself when you're in the green means that you've spent time that could otherwise have been used to hit the mob.</p></blockquote><p>When in a hard fight, I'd say that rotating the ward would be good, the heals only if needed as in the healer needs a breather as they keep everyone alive.</p><p>As a healer, I'd like for the Paladin to use the ward in the rotation.  Not out of laziness or being unable to heal, but it's a good cushion, small or large as it may be.</p><p>A ward when green can offset incoming damage in the first place, especially when its a mob that will hit hard.  I for one appreciate the ward being up during the fight.  It gives me a chance to do things easier such as cure or lay down the debuff I have or the elemental ward that needs to be refreshed, or anything else I may have to do in a fight for the group.</p><p>Now in the case of our Paladins (husband and I), we can literally keep the ward going thru out the fight due to the AA in the Paladin tree.  We took that AA due to both knowing how it can be a good thing to have the ward up so often in a fight when it's needed.</p><p>Again, not arguing, just trying to give what you asked for. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

tiger911
01-09-2009, 05:49 PM
<p>The paladin class has always been known as the "Jack of all trades, but master of none." We could top off groups, put a ward or two on the MT, heal ourselves here and there, but never were healers. We could be aoe and single target tanks, but the guards were always the better single target tank and without amends on a good aoe dpser our aoe tankage skills were no where to be found.</p><p>So we go from the Jack of all trades to 2nd rate guardian?!?</p><p>We don't have the same survivability as a guard, no matter how much people want to argue that we have "HEALS" our heals mean crap in TSO raid zones when MTing. It helps, but nothing compares to tower of stone where the guard can avoid a 20k hit. That same 20k hit on us, even when using our ward, will hit us for 18k and get us in the red. We use touch and that brings us up to orange/yellow while the guard is still in the green because he stoneskined that hit. So if we're now the 2nd rate guardian, why wouldn't raiding guilds just take another guardian to be the OT?</p><p>I think the main thing we should fight for is that we should still be the Jack of all trades and allow us some skills to allow us to still be aoe tanks as well when needed.</p><p>Taking away our class defining spell and changing it to a mediocare single target taunt is going to kill the class. I don't see SKs losing Death March, Guards losing Tower of Stone, I don't see Wizards losing Fission, etc. So why do paladins all of the sudden lose their class defining spell? WHat is our class defining spell now...Sigil? A 20 second hate transfer?</p><p>75% of Paladins in raiding guilds are off tanks and need the aoe aggro to keep that spot. There's encounters that will require us to keep aggro on multiple mobs, Xebnok being a good example in TSO.</p>

Kordran
01-09-2009, 05:58 PM
<p><cite>PolarBear77 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Post that dribble there and see the reponce you get when ppl explain to you why your bucket of fail</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, that was enlightening. Thanks for your contribution.</p>

denmom
01-09-2009, 06:06 PM
<p>Guys...<em><strong>please</strong></em>...</p><p>Arguments, fighting, name calling, general negativity towards others isn't going to help this thread or we Paladins to get heard and changes made.</p><p>>_<</p>

Kiljoi
01-09-2009, 07:05 PM
<p>GG sidetracking a thread named Amends and gu51 with arguing about healing and when it should and shouldnt be used or not used.</p>

Pally2
01-09-2009, 09:33 PM
<p>I'm a casual player who typically duos and trios.  I'm trying to be open minded and will try the changes on the test server.  Based on what I have read so far though, I think the changes with the detaunt effect in offensive stance and the overall change to amends are going to hurt small group play with my Pally.  In a small group my DPS matters and I still need to hold aggro.  I understand that game balance can be a tricky thing.  I hope the devs take a look at the feedback that we are providing and have an open mind when it comes to the changes.  I don't claim to be the greatest player or anything like that but I can say that I have really enjoyed the pally.  I have enjoyed the fact that I could effectively tank muliple mobs as well as single targets.  I'll share my thoughts on the changes after I get some time on the test server.</p>

Faelgalad
01-09-2009, 10:49 PM
<p>My question is...</p><p>In which Area outshines an Paladin an Guardian?</p><p>Attribute: Guard (3) > Paladin (5)</p><p>DPS: Guard > Paladin</p><p>Mitigation: Guard > Paladin</p><p>Avoidance: Guard = Paladin</p><p>Damage Immunities: Guard > Paladin</p><p>AA-Abilties: Guard > Paladin</p><p>Aggro Snaps: Guard < Paladin</p><p>Continous Aggro: ?</p><p>The M4A3 Sherman was the best US Tank in WW2, but it got eaten by German Panther & Tiger Tanks...</p><p>In Tank Buisness, Position 2 is the dead one</p>

Boli32
01-09-2009, 10:57 PM
<p>Sherman beat tiger tanks by zerging because they built 48,000 of them vs 1200 tiger tanks <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Bad example about the tanks <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Elad
01-10-2009, 02:58 AM
<p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #ffffff; font-family: Verdana;">So which one of these new stances is a pally supposed to solo in and complete all those solo quests for AA's? Both stances hurt the solo pally. In Defense you can live well but kill slow slow slowly. We have always been slow killing toons, compared to other classes, but with the Decreases Melee Damage Multiplier that will be even slower. Also now we lose the Glorious strike damage in Defensive since this becomes a threat proc which we do not need when solo. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #ffffff; font-family: Verdana;">So we try Offensive stance. Makes perfect sense while solo. Wait a minute, more physical damage done to you in this stance. Those T8 mobs already hit hard and this stance lets them hit harder. Least in offensive stance we get a Glorious strike damage proc. Seems the offensive stance is best for when not MT but still in a group, not solo questing. Maybe this extra damage will not be insurmountable and we can heal through the extra damage. Time will tell.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: #ffffff; font-family: Verdana;">Maybe the best stance will be "NO" stance while solo. But before I could be in "NO" stance and still get benefit from Glorious Strike and Blessing of the Paladin. So we lose damage proc and additional health when in "NO" stance.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000;"> </span></p>

Full_Metal_Mage
01-10-2009, 04:05 AM
<p>It occurs to me that the complete destructification of the Paladin class signifies that there is not one single dev at SOE that actually plays the class.</p>

Tharinor Degaulle
01-10-2009, 04:43 AM
<p>I'm not sure they gave any thought whatsoever what would happen to tanks when they solo and do group instances.</p>

therodge
01-10-2009, 05:46 AM
<p>Has anyone other then me tested these changes? i mean really yeah im still peaved that amends is useless (and it is) but honestly hate is 100 times easier then before, the only major negitive thing i have seen is small groups (duo trio) have lost some dps. honestly that 5% extra damage doesent mean jack for soloing as we wernt soloing orange ^^^ anyway, and we now acually do more damage in offensive stance then before so you now have an option.</p><p>Tank hold hate (which is acually too easy now even in a group averageing 20k dps through forge)</p><p>or dps</p><p>basically the only thing we truly loose as a class is dps which isnt our primary job anyway,</p><p>also their is one very very good thing that comes out of this, a paladin is the only tank who as an ot could be in offensive tank dies and be at top of hate list in under 3 seconds. (namely click defensive hit holy ground and auto attack) also sigil wasent touched note THE ONLY time i lost agro (and note im not in raid gear or have a bunch of hate procs or anything) was with a warlock who did 15k in befallen on 2 groups of the no arrow mobs that repop and sigil and circle snapped it back real quick.</p>

Mahgnus
01-10-2009, 08:01 AM
<p><cite>Boli32 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Sherman beat tiger tanks by zerging because they built 48,000 of them vs 1200 tiger tanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> Bad example about the tanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I [Removed for Content] about this, its really a terrible terrible thing to joke about but its so true.</p>

Kordran
01-10-2009, 08:05 AM
<p>Aeralik had said on the beta forums that he saw the Paladin as a "very close second" (or words to that effect) to the Guardian in terms of defensive tanking ability. I think the real problem here is that he hasn't followed through on what his own vision for the class is supposed to be. I agree with others when they say that if we're supposed to basically be on par (or very close) to Guardians, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. </p>

Boli32
01-10-2009, 09:55 AM
<p>exactly... and my bigegst gripe about this entire change is removal of no passive hate which means its gonna be imposible to rotate heals into our spell order ergo... we LOOSE a lot of defensive cabalbility. which ever way you put it is 30% reduciton in autoattack, 40% reduction in hate from procs and 90% reduction from amends. That's a *lot* of hate lost.</p>

Antryg Mistrose
01-10-2009, 10:00 AM
<p>oops - double post - darn laggy forums</p>

Antryg Mistrose
01-10-2009, 10:03 AM
<p>I guess this is the official, likely to be read thread despite all the insults flying around, so I'll mention a couple of other problems from test:</p><p>1) With having to cast all the time (no passive aggro), the amount of power we are charged for heals and aoe damage spells is too high - we need less power used or a power tap.  That is one of the side effects of removing amends.</p><p>2) I run out of single target spells to cast - even when cycling between stances to maximise dps - so end up casting power hungry inefficient AoE's.  If we are to be a single target specialist we need some actual changes to our spells/CAs - not just to our taunts</p><p>3) There are no raids on test_copy and stuff all groups, so its hard to tell solo, but even making up a spell order biased towards tps I can't get over about 6k tps (threat per second - including about 25% dps assuming a 1:1 transfer).  Now that might be enough for groups, but is that going to be enough for raids? - dps buff synergy > threat buff synergy imo.  (note: the tps figure is for a legendary geared paladin with about half masters and epic, not mythic, with all AAs biased towards hate, it also is against mobs that can't stun/stifle)</p><p>4) The autoattack penalty on defensivie stance is just nasty - even against yellow mobs I was only on 66% hit rate until I put 8 points into WIS skills buff</p>

denmom
01-10-2009, 11:38 AM
<p>I posted this to the thread in the Test Forum and in another Pally thread here.  But after some thinking, I'm also posting it here.</p><p>------------------</p><p><span ><p><span><p>Okay, just back from Test Copy.</p><p>First off, tested fighting the charging grindhoofs around the Skleross quest tent in Jarsath Wastes near the Howling Stones post.  That's where Pheep was when I logged in.  All of these tests were of what would be normal fighting for Pheep when solo and duo'd.</p><p>Offensive stance, 15-17 secs to kill.</p><p>Defensive stance, 25-27 secs.</p><p>Not good.</p><p>I went to where the yha-lei are, and had the same results in offensive stance, worse results in defensive stance.  These were against white even and white ^.  My guildee's Wiz joined me, finally being on Test Copy as well.</p><p><strong>EDIT:</strong> Doh, forgot, the Wiz is raid spec'd.  My Paladin isn't.</p><p>We tested first with Pheep in offensive stance.</p><p>I pulled as usual, used my usual cycle, and promptly lost all aggro to the Wiz's first shot.</p><p>After we stopped laughing at how close the death was for the Wiz, we tried it with defensive mode.</p><p>Didn't lose aggro at all.  Even when I did a deliberate social pull, firing an arrow at a patroller who brought over his nearby friend.  Used the blue ae with the new threat component once, and maintained aggro on the 2nd mob, even tho the Wiz unloaded on it while I worked on the first.</p><p>We did a deliberate testing of regaining hate/threat by doing what would be a usual stripping of the mob off Pheep by the Wiz: a body pull with the Wiz fast on the casting.  The mob ran by Pheep right to the Wiz, but one taunt of the new Amends yanked it right off, but before I could solidify it the mob turned around again, but the dotting taunt yanked it back and when I followed with the threat laden Kick and shield bash, it stuck to me solid.</p><p>Now all that happened in seconds.</p><p>In our testing, the Wiz couldn't strip aggro off me.  I didn't have to use the Amends line at all save for when we went for a deliberate try of my losing aggro.  And even then it was hard to lose it.</p><p>What I really do not like is the extreme loss of dps.</p><p>Offensive: average of 1500-1600</p><p>Defensive: average of 500-800</p><p>No stance: average of 950</p><p>I duo with a Warden.  With the above numbers, this means the Warden will have to do more attacks to make up for the lack of dps in defensive stance, or we wait until we can trio with our guildees and friends or we PUG.</p><p>When the Wiz ran ACT to check my dps, she didn't attack at all while I was in offensive mode so didn't get any aggro at all.  This tells me that the Warden would have to do the same thing in our duos if I go offensive but I'm willing to bet the first heal and there goes the mob to eat the healer.</p><p>Overall, defensive mode is great, a wonderful thing when in a group.  It's offensive mode that's the real problem, imho.</p><p>Suggestion: please remove the dethreats when in offensive mode.  This is a detriment for us Paladins who run in duos and are the main damage dealers.  It can be a possible group enforcing element, and a bad one for those of us who duo out of preference or time constraints due to RL (work, family, school etc.).</p></span></p></span></p>

denmom
01-10-2009, 12:05 PM
<p>It just feels, to me, that my Paladin is being forced to change in gameplay.  That I can no longer duo but must find a third or more for grouping, preferably a full six man group.</p><p>I don't want my gameplay forcibly changed.  I want the <em><strong>choice</strong></em> to duo, to trio, to solo, to group.</p><p>Please...remove the dethreat to taunts and the threat-added attacks (kick, shield, blue aoe).</p><p>/sigh   I brought my Paladin out of retirement July 5th, 2007...that's when my husband made his Warden to run with Pheep.  I retired her after LU13.  I really don't want to retire her again.</p><p>/hugs her mouse</p>

Mrdi
01-10-2009, 09:43 PM
<p>Paladin's are single target tanks corrcet? Explain, don't AoE taunts work against single targets as well?We are the most defensive after Guards? How is that? Sk's, and zerkers have better abilities to deal with spike damage.</p><p>We are trying to make all Plate tanks balanced correct? Then lets do that.Fact is no player likes their class nerfed, so that being said lets get to work and bring them all in line.</p><p>Don't take away and give,or give and take away the community does not like that. I'm sure you are all aware of that. So why do we continue I ask.</p><p>Mord.</p>

Boli32
01-10-2009, 11:06 PM
<p>Just give up... they don't listen either on these forums or /feedback; unless its a class they play. and quite frankly they have no idea what to do with this class; their contining decisions prove that.</p>

betatester7
01-10-2009, 11:56 PM
<p><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> yeah, we can't do anything, just to adapt or quit from game <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

denmom
01-11-2009, 12:03 AM
<p>I just can't give up, not yet.</p><p>I love my mouse too much....</p>

denmom
01-11-2009, 01:13 AM
<p>Just got off Test Copy.  Some good news...in offensive mode the Amends line doesn't change to dethreat anymore.</p><p>I'm glad of that, but would still love to see the whole dethreat taken off offensive stance.</p>

Antryg Mistrose
01-11-2009, 02:00 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just got off Test Copy.  Some good news...in offensive mode the Amends line doesn't change to dethreat anymore.</p><p>I'm glad of that, but would still love to see the whole dethreat taken off offensive stance.</p></blockquote><p>There is a 23% hate penalty and a 25% surviability penalty in offensive stance - who cares if they've messed up one spell</p>

Mayerling
01-11-2009, 04:39 AM
<p>Ok... the major issue here for me is that IMO Amends was the defining ability of a modern Pally...</p><p>we all had the cute little macros saying who we put it on...</p><p>we all had the high DPSs sending us tells fighting to get it...</p><p>everyone knew what it did and how great it could be...</p><p>it was what made a Pally feel special, as apposed to being a Temp with a few Taunts...</p><p>If Amends go's completely away or gets changed into just another Taunt where will that put us when it comes to defining the character of our class? as I see it our aggro generation (at least in DEF stance) is getting a huge kick upwards, and it looks like it will be a bit easier to actualy hold a Mob but it still takes away one of the things that made a Pally special. Personaly if these changes go through I will no longer be playing my pally (and thus the entire account he's on) not because it will be harder or that I will have no job, but because I loved the way I played before. I will not spend another 3 years learning a Toon that I grew to love because he was unique and different from all the other classes. If I have to be just another meat shield then its not worth it.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Please SOE don't just make Pallys a cookie cutter tank...</p>

denmom
01-11-2009, 05:17 AM
<p><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just got off Test Copy.  Some good news...in offensive mode the Amends line doesn't change to dethreat anymore.</p><p>I'm glad of that, but would still love to see the whole dethreat taken off offensive stance.</p></blockquote><p>There is a 23% hate penalty and a 25% surviability penalty in offensive stance - who cares if they've messed up one spell</p></blockquote><p>For now...maybe they'll adjust it.</p><p>Maybe if we keep voicing concerns and worries more changes will be added.</p><p>No, I'm not a fanboi, not in the least.  I'll argue with devs and throw bricks...but changes can be done.</p><p>/sigh   I guess I'm trying to find any shred of positive in all of this.  I'm as unhappy as you and others.  I just saw the change as we're not being discarded, that we are being listened to.  Maybe, just maybe, we can get other changes put in.  /shrug</p>

Kiljoi
01-11-2009, 02:07 PM
<p><cite>Mayerling wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok... the major issue here for me is that IMO Amends was the defining ability of a modern Pally...</p><p>we all had the cute little macros saying who we put it on...</p><p>we all had the high DPSs sending us tells fighting to get it...</p><p>everyone knew what it did and how great it could be...</p><p>it was what made a Pally feel special, as apposed to being a Temp with a few Taunts...</p><p>If Amends go's completely away or gets changed into just another Taunt where will that put us when it comes to defining the character of our class? as I see it our aggro generation (at least in DEF stance) is getting a huge kick upwards, and it looks like it will be a bit easier to actualy hold a Mob but it still takes away one of the things that made a Pally special. Personaly if these changes go through I will no longer be playing my pally (and thus the entire account he's on) not because it will be harder or that I will have no job, but because I loved the way I played before. I will not spend another 3 years learning a Toon that I grew to love because he was unique and different from all the other classes. If I have to be just another meat shield then its not worth it.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p><p>Please SOE don't just make Pallys a cookie cutter tank...</p></blockquote><p>QFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p><p>I'm gonna miss it (the pally way of life NOT JUST AMENDS) for sure. I'm gonna make the most of it until they put this horrid disastrous mess live and hope that some sense will fill their heads and at the last minute do away with all this foolishness and keep things as they are. <strong>Aerilik says he wants agro to be more transparent and everyone to be responsible for their own hate. I have no problem with that statement whatsoever, infact I like it. HOWEVER, this is certainly NOT the way to do it.</strong></p>

Boli32
01-11-2009, 06:27 PM
<p>FYI last night I sent about 20-25 feedbacks or so detailing the problems possible solutions to the changes and went through EVERYTHING I could think of... in total I /feedbacked about 3,000 words or so.. I know how much because I did it in WORD to avoid spelling errors.</p><p>ps. you realise the /feedback function has a character limit on it... neither did I <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Whatever happens if this goes live as it stands I can say without a doubt I /feedbacked the changes; tested ran numbers and proved we're screwed in comparrison to every other plate tank out there... and if nothign changes at all... then either their calculator needs repairing or they simply do not listen.</p>

Anurra
01-11-2009, 06:46 PM
<p>Well, I got on test finally and found out my character was in the depths of Seb. I was spammed with a bunch of windows indicating my spells were consolidated. A bunch of mobs aggroed me right when I logged in and I got plastered. When I revived, I found I had like 3 buffs to click before I was "rebuffed". Not sure what my point here is, but I guess just a FYI lol.</p><p>So I went to Jarsath Wastes and fought a couple monsters after I redid my character traits. My stances are now Master I, thats cool. Saved me a lot of plat for the upgrades. Then I killed a couple of monsters. Both in defensive and offensive stance. Its doable, <em>solo</em>. I pulled a group of mobs and killed them in offensive stance. But this isn't the worry or issue with these changes for the class.</p><p>Then I did a /who all and saw only 20 people on and several of them were not even close to level 80. So I really have no way to test the changes in a group setting. I guess I will ask my guild to do test copy and maybe I can do a group test there. Or maybe there'll be more people on later, who knows. But it'll be hard to test these changes for group and just about impossible for raid. So basically, I know little more than I previously did than playing on test so far.</p>

Hamervelder
01-13-2009, 12:09 AM
<p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate and should have the tools to do that.</p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary you go play one on test copy and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for giving me an additional reason to be happy that my account expires this week, Aeralik.  I'm tired of paying you to continually screw up the game.</p>

Antryg Mistrose
01-13-2009, 02:21 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As the patch notes for gu51 will soon show, amends has been changed into an incredibly powerful taunt.  I realize many of you will be unhappy about it but it is something that we feel needs to change to put more emphasis on the paladin gaining hate and not a third party.  When you are siphoning 40% or more of a players hate then the hate gain is based more on the dps class than on the paladin.  This means with gu51 that the paladin will need to be more in control of their own hate <span style="font-size: small; color: #ffff00;"><em><strong>and should have the tools to do that</strong></em></span><span style="font-size: small;">.</span></p><p>Again, I realize that paladins will not be happy with this change.  I would encourage that instead of being reactionary <span style="font-size: small; color: #ffcc00;"><em><strong><span>you go play one on test copy</span></strong></em></span> and give objective feedback.  You are not alone in these changes so your feedback on the change is welcome but it needs to be objective and focused on actual gameplay instead of your immediate reaction to seeing the changes.  Also I left Sigil alone.  Its relatively short term so its nice for a burst up the hate list initially but not for sustained aggro.</p></blockquote><p>Thanks for giving me an additional reason to be happy that my account expires this week, Aeralik.  I'm tired of paying you to continually screw up the game.</p></blockquote><p>Where are they, hmm? 'cause they ain't on test copy.</p>

denmom
01-13-2009, 05:30 AM
<p><span ><p>Back from Test Copy yet again. This time was running in duo, exactly as I would be with my husband's Warden on live.</p><p>While in offensive stance, tho the damage output was there, I kept losing aggro to the Warden due to not putting into rotation the four abilities which have dethreat in offensive stance: Penitent Kick, Heroic Dash, Excoriation, Circular Smite.  Out of those four, Excoriation was the most detrimental.  That taunt has the divine mitigation debuff.  If I cannot cast it, I have to work harder to kill without the debuff.</p><p>Restitution <strong><em>must</em></strong> have its recast lowered.  It last for 20 seconds.  Due to taking the Str line, for Pheep it has a 54.5 recast. That leaves 34.5 seconds to lose threat to the Warden despite using my CAs and spells.  I'm down three attacks due to their threat being turned into dethreat while in offensive stance.</p><p>Even if I do use the four hampered abilities, and even with the use of Restitution, aggro bounces between the Warden and the Paladin, usually settling on the Warden.</p><p>In defensive stance, we killed so slow due to the amount of damage decrease of the Paladin.  The 60 int boost and 80 str boost are not enough to enable efficient killing for questing.  I realize when in a 4-6 player group, there will be others who deal the damage I cannot in defensive mode.  But I and my husband primarily duo.  The defensive stance is not at all efficient and is detrimental.</p></span></p>

shadowedwolf
01-13-2009, 09:04 AM
<p>Was it just bad luck for me... but it got resisted by blue mobs 4 outta the 10 times I used it in LP? Mind you, this is AFTER I re-spec'd it to the m2? Bad luck... or bad design?</p>

Antryg Mistrose
01-13-2009, 09:08 AM
<p>For duoing or small groups without huge DPSers you might want to try <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=440646">"</a><a href="a firedrake sentry: (01:02) | 55864.47 Croco 6190.06 Sowe 5569.87 Trixs 5397.69 Adely 5260.63 Devor 4924.92 Lasce 4110.42 Shado 3646.45 Agami 3249.92 Kella 3156.66 Caine 2991.87 Zipit 2762.97 Caeli 2750.92 Tazzm 1895.44 Barra 1641.53 Cootr 935.32 Pendr 710.77 Arila 303.68 Medic 202.71 Spyri 162.63 Sowe' 0.00 Devor 0.00 Shado 0.00 Charl 0.00 Caeli 0.00 Sowe' 0.00 Caeli 0.00 " target="_blank">stance dancing</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=440646" target="_blank">"</a> - offensive stance on incoming, bow attack and a couple of long range spells.  Double click defensive stance, cast all your tants, double click offensive again ....</p><p>RSI inducing, but seems to work for adequate dps.</p>

Anarissa
01-13-2009, 12:26 PM
<p>You would think, with all the other destructive things that they have done to the Paladin class, that they would have caught this.</p><p><a href="http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/?action=view&current=AmendsLine.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/AmendsLine.jpg" border="0" /></a></p><p>I mean, how hard is it to check a crafted version of a spell that you create, before releasing it, EVEN on Test??</p><p>P.S. - I'm amazed they finally spelled Restitution right after  a week. Way to spell check people. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p>

Antryg Mistrose
01-13-2009, 12:29 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Was it just bad luck for me... but it got resisted by blue mobs 4 outta the 10 times I used it in LP? Mind you, this is AFTER I re-spec'd it to the m2? Bad luck... or bad design?</p></blockquote><p>Loping Plains mobs are high 60's, and you are using a level 49 spell on them?  Amends now as 2 upgrades.</p>

Anarissa
01-13-2009, 12:30 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Was it just bad luck for me... but it got resisted by blue mobs 4 outta the 10 times I used it in LP? Mind you, this is AFTER I re-spec'd it to the m2? Bad luck... or <span style="font-size: x-large; font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif; color: #ff0000;">bad design</span>?</p></blockquote><p>Pretty simple thing there.</p>

denmom
01-13-2009, 01:46 PM
<p><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For duoing or small groups without huge DPSers you might want to try <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=440646">"</a><a href="a firedrake sentry: (01:02) | 55864.47 Croco 6190.06 Sowe 5569.87 Trixs 5397.69 Adely 5260.63 Devor 4924.92 Lasce 4110.42 Shado 3646.45 Agami 3249.92 Kella 3156.66 Caine 2991.87 Zipit 2762.97 Caeli 2750.92 Tazzm 1895.44 Barra 1641.53 Cootr 935.32 Pendr 710.77 Arila 303.68 Medic 202.71 Spyri 162.63 Sowe' 0.00 Devor 0.00 Shado 0.00 Charl 0.00 Caeli 0.00 Sowe' 0.00 Caeli 0.00 " target="_blank">stance dancing</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=440646" target="_blank">"</a> - offensive stance on incoming, bow attack and a couple of long range spells.  Double click defensive stance, cast all your tants, double click offensive again ....</p><p>RSI inducing, but seems to work for adequate dps.</p></blockquote><p>Looks like I'll have to get good at that.  I have been considering doing just that very thing.</p><p>I'll admit I'm set in my ways but I can adjust.  Just won't like it.  >_<</p><p>Yanno, it'd be nice if you could one click these stances, near instant cool down, instead of double click.  In the middle of a fight, I tend to become focused on the mob.  I'll probably have to move my stance hot keys further up on my stack of hotbars.  Heh, it's crowded up there already.</p><p>Thanks for the info.</p>

denmom
01-13-2009, 01:47 PM
<p><cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>For duoing or small groups without huge DPSers you might want to try <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=440646">"</a><a href="a firedrake sentry: (01:02) | 55864.47 Croco 6190.06 Sowe 5569.87 Trixs 5397.69 Adely 5260.63 Devor 4924.92 Lasce 4110.42 Shado 3646.45 Agami 3249.92 Kella 3156.66 Caine 2991.87 Zipit 2762.97 Caeli 2750.92 Tazzm 1895.44 Barra 1641.53 Cootr 935.32 Pendr 710.77 Arila 303.68 Medic 202.71 Spyri 162.63 Sowe' 0.00 Devor 0.00 Shado 0.00 Charl 0.00 Caeli 0.00 Sowe' 0.00 Caeli 0.00 " target="_blank">stance dancing</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=440646" target="_blank">"</a> - offensive stance on incoming, bow attack and a couple of long range spells.  Double click defensive stance, cast all your tants, double click offensive again ....</p><p>RSI inducing, but seems to work for adequate dps.</p></blockquote><p>Doh, went there after I posted and it's 404.  >_<</p>

Tharinor Degaulle
01-13-2009, 01:50 PM
<p><cite>Anarissa wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You would think, with all the other destructive things that they have done to the Paladin class, that they would have caught this.</p><p><a href="http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/?action=view&current=AmendsLine.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/AmendsLine.jpg" border="0" /></a></p><p>I mean, how hard is it to check a crafted version of a spell that you create, before releasing it, EVEN on Test??</p><p>P.S. - I'm amazed they finally spelled Restitution right after  a week. Way to spell check people. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Did you examine the Adept III as a different class?  The actual threat number change based on point of view, and judging from the screenshots, the left SS is usable (you're a Paladin), and the right screenshot is unusable (note the red text, either you're not a Paladin or you're not high enough level, which could both affect the actual threat value).</p><p>Can someone confirm if there's an actual problem here or not?  I'm also not sure if AA bonuses, etc., are applied to spell scrolls before you scribe them.  The SS on the left is scribed, the SS on the right is not scribed yet.</p>

denmom
01-13-2009, 02:30 PM
<p>When I was on Test Copy and looking over Pheep's recipe book, there was only one entry for Restitution.  Paladin L73, I had both apprentice and adept 3 recipes.  I know the ap 4 works, I made that for Pheep yesterday.</p>

Kordran
01-13-2009, 03:03 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Can someone confirm if there's an actual problem here or not? I'm also not sure if AA bonuses, etc., are applied to spell scrolls before you scribe them. The SS on the left is scribed, the SS on the right is not scribed yet.</p></blockquote><p>I have the Adept III scribed, and the threat is 4,579 - 5,597. That's with 8 points in Idolic Axe and 5 points in Gallantry.</p>

Antryg Mistrose
01-13-2009, 06:17 PM
<p>5 points in Gallantry and 8 in Idolic Axe.  Examining in Defensive Stance (yep that changes it too):</p><ul><li>AppII 3124-3819   (NQ Class Trainer)</li><li>AppIV 3618-4422</li><li>AdeptIII 4605-5628</li></ul><p>That is consistent, and indicates there is no problem (well no problem with progression anyway).</p>

Arkinon
01-13-2009, 09:22 PM
<p>I think first off asking for our opinion is a bold and somewhat gutsy move and in part shows a willingness to in the least listen to our input. However a lack of response in over 10 pages makes me think this was a somewhat halfhearted attempt. So in an attempt to quell the arguments could you please answer some simple straightforward questions could put a lot of us at ease. While I know most of us may not like the answer it may go a long way respect wise if you were upfront about this.</p><p>Since this seems obvious to me but the questions havent seemed to asked in this thread I am giving you the opportunity to set us right. SOOOO</p><p><span><cite>1. Aeralik What EXACTLY is the roll you expect Pallys to play (especially in a Raid environment) after these changes cansidering the overwhelming response that direct Hate gain isnt the only problem facing this class?</cite></span></p><p><span><cite>2. Aeralik What EXACTLY do you intend to do to fix the apparent problem concerning Paladins and passive Hate Gain if anything?</cite></span></p><p><span><cite>3. Aeralik What EXACTLY Have you done to ensure these changes will be effective and wont break the following: Class Balance, AA abilities, and Raid encouters when clearly there is much more at stake than just a Hate revamp. </cite></span></p><p>AND because you have said to reserve our comments until we have taken a look at your work I ask this question...</p><p><span><cite>Aeralik What EXACTLY have you done personally to ensure this would be a correct and positive course of action in the best interests of this class?</cite></span></p><p>With the top 3 questions answered I think would clean up A LOT of misconceptions about what is intended.</p><p>Thanks</p>

Conna
01-13-2009, 11:32 PM
<p>Finally got copied over to test. I can back up what Pheep is saying. So far I've tried solo and duo with a boxed troub. Hasn't been enough people on to get a full group and run an instance to see how that plays out. Once (if) I can do that I'll /feedback.</p><p>I ran some solo dps tests on the same mobs as Pheep. The 80 Rhino's and Cacti. Killed 10 mobs then cleared the parse.</p><p>Stance    DPS</p><p>Off          2200</p><p>None      1100</p><p>Def          800</p><p>Really need to run some TSO instances or even a raid to get full info. Maybe Aeralik should volunteer to put something together for some of us on the server so we can give instant feedback.</p>

denmom
01-14-2009, 12:26 AM
<p><cite>Conna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Finally got copied over to test. I can back up what Pheep is saying. So far I've tried solo and duo with a boxed troub. Hasn't been enough people on to get a full group and run an instance to see how that plays out. Once (if) I can do that I'll /feedback.</p><p>I ran some solo dps tests on the same mobs as Pheep. The 80 Rhino's and Cacti. Killed 10 mobs then cleared the parse.</p><p>Stance    DPS</p><p>Off          2200</p><p>None      1100</p><p>Def          800</p><p>Really need to run some TSO instances or even a raid to get full info. Maybe Aeralik should volunteer to put something together for some of us on the server so we can give instant feedback.</p></blockquote><p>Thank you for the back up and confirmation. /bow</p><p>Day-am...2200...but you've a Troub and that's some nice buffs there.</p><p>I've been wondering on how few there are on Test Copy.  Makes me wonder if there are more on Test than Test Copy.</p><p>I see at the most 26 then when I'm done testing it's down to 9, counting myself.  And mostly Crusaders, a few of the other fighters, and some lower than L10.</p>

Kalinmoor
01-14-2009, 02:21 AM
<p><cite>Anarissa wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You would think, with all the other destructive things that they have done to the Paladin class, that they would have caught this.</p><p><a href="http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/?action=view&current=AmendsLine.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc310/kdroman/AmendsLine.jpg" border="0" /></a></p><p>I mean, how hard is it to check a crafted version of a spell that you create, before releasing it, EVEN on Test??</p><p>P.S. - I'm amazed they finally spelled Restitution right after  a week. Way to spell check people. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>Hum, as of about an hour ago this is how it looked for me, scribed, after AA, and i think in defensive stance.</p><p><img src="http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/Kalinmoor/Restitution.png" width="280" height="374" /></p>

VALKOR
01-14-2009, 06:20 PM
<p>I posted elsewhere but missed this thread.  I would like to see Amends dressed up as well, preferably as a taunt we activate that then steals X hate from friend Y for Z seconds so that the total amount of hate gained on average is comparable to what our new glorified rescue gives.  High DPS class would give the top end while a slacker would give us the low end of the range.  Why this approach? It retains the flavor of the current amends ability by still relying on a friend but decreases Amends to the level intended by development.</p><p>As for paladins on raids, I have been the MT for a casual raiding guild both before and after earning our mythicals.  I share MT duties with a Guardian and frankly I have had no trouble tanking the same content just as effectively as a guard.  I was pleased to be the MT when we first killed Druushk.  With the right gear, AA, and group make-up, I'm now running around 68% mitigation and 75% avoidance (35% block) in raids (no Trak shield).  I am obviously able to tank VP and we've taken down varying mobs in Shadow Odyssey though still a lot to do.  I often end up in the top 10 on the parse, and when all out DPSing with hot red pants, chain gloves and the like, I can get lucky and make top 5 when our raid is slanted toward melee DPS, which is fine by me.  As for being the MT, raid setup and the classes in your group make a big difference - you have to gear the raid to a paladin MT which means changing the conventional wisdom about who goes where in which group.  If you get rail-roaded into a guardian devised raid setup, then it will make you look bad just as the reverse does for a guardian.  So take heart - a paladin can certainly MT all the way through VP and earn mythicals with time and effort, and I've got the screenshots to prove it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p><p>As for being an offtank, we have Holy Ground which is a wonderful ability and Sigil of Heroism was left in place which I really appreciate as it keeps some of our unique flavor in place.  When I'm being the OT, I simply fight in offensive mode and hit Holy Ground if in melee range or else use regular rescue / shadow odyssey rescue when I need to pick the mob up.  I can then switch to defensive stance and build my aggro up before Holy Ground expires, using Sigil as necessary.  It looks like most tanks are going to be able to use at least one "snap" aggro ability even in offensive (Peel, Divide and Conquer, etc. but don't quote me on that), though I think Paladins will have the best and so will make good raid OTs if not being the MT.</p><p>On test, a monk and I were able to duo the front heroics in Obelisk (both groups and solo).  We swapped tanking roles and were both able to keep aggro on the group and the solo and not pull it off one another.  Obviously. scouts and mages are going to make it a lot trickier but it was nice to see that as tanks we could actually swap roles and be effective, even without an upgraded Amends.</p><p>My biggest complaint is that we have been reduced to Rescue I, Rescue II, and Rescue III.  I would much rather see Amends continue to transfer at a greatly reduced rate so that it matches the intended replacement ability under the hood but helps differentiate us.  I'm glad the +parry was added, and I don't disagree with a number of the comments made about suggested changes, but I do have to counter that in my experience I have been able to MT or DPS pretty well.</p>

Garnaf
01-14-2009, 11:45 PM
<p>I'm not reading through 14 pages of topic to see if this has been posted.  I know that the new Hate proc on our Defense stance is melee only.  I have 2 thoughts here.</p><p>1: Why not expand it to Melee and spell (same for the SK stance, and both Offense stances).</p><p>2: I know the drawback to the defense stance is supposed to be lessened Melee ability.  Well I think the melee damage reduction should sufficently cover that, and it's been pointed out that accuracy is a HUGE issue in Defensive (the main reason it's never used).  Why not remove the loss of Slashing, Crushing, and Piercing skills on ALL the defense stances (maybe having to lower the amount of Defense / Parry to compensate), since a reduction in melee damage delt seems enough to me.  (The same can be true of the Offense stance with the hate reduction and the increased damage taken now.  Remove the loss of Defense on that stance)</p><p>Just a thought, dunno if it's been suggested, but it seems like it'd work...</p>

Cyrdemac
01-15-2009, 06:23 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>2: I know the drawback to the defense stance is supposed to be lessened Melee ability.  Well I think the melee damage reduction should sufficently cover that, and it's been pointed out that accuracy is a HUGE issue in Defensive (the main reason it's never used).  Why not remove the loss of Slashing, Crushing, and Piercing skills on ALL the defense stances (maybe having to lower the amount of Defense / Parry to compensate), since a reduction in melee damage delt seems enough to me.  (The same can be true of the Offense stance with the hate reduction and the increased damage taken now.  Remove the loss of Defense on that stance)</p><p>Just a thought, dunno if it's been suggested, but it seems like it'd work...</p></blockquote><p>As far as I have read the previous statements, they would argue, that in a group or raid situation, the tank gets buffed and has to look for weaponskill enhancing buffs and equipment to fulfill its role even with this drawback.</p><p>But I would agree with you, that a penalizing lesser chance to hit shouldn`t be on our def stance where Paladins even have to hit the mob to get the hate proc trigger, therefore reducing there build-in hate with the same stance where it is on.</p><p>Its like giving somebody the job to throw a ball at a car but in the same moment blinding his eyes and saying "I'am helping you!".</p>

Kordran
01-15-2009, 04:47 PM
<p><cite>Cyrdemac wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>As far as I have read the previous statements, they would argue, that in a group or raid situation, the tank gets buffed and has to look for weaponskill enhancing buffs and equipment to fulfill its role even with this drawback.</p></blockquote><p>This ties back to the issue that things like weapon skill are less of a problem in full groups (and shouldn't be a problem at all in raids, really -- if the tank isn't buffed to the gills and/or the mob doesn't have 3 rows of debuffs on it, then something is wrong) but it can present a real obstacle to those who prefer to duo or trio, and they don't have the "right" combination of classes to buff the Paladin and/or debuff the mob in the ways that need to be done to mitigate this deficiency.</p><p>But, to be fair, this isn't just an issue for Paladins. It's a broad problem that affects most fighters; duos are basically being forced into the mold of having the fighter in defensive to hold the mob, and the healer be the damage dealer and there are few healers that are really capable of that (at least in any kind of tolerable fashion).</p><p>Should the game be balanced around duo/trio groups? No, I'd agree that it shouldn't. But there should be <em>some</em> consideration for that playstyle. It's something people have been literally doing for years now; to suddenly tell them that their preferred method of playing the game is no longer valid isn't a particularly smart move. The "no stance" option really isn't an option simply because so many buffs are now tied to those stances; it's clear the intent of the developers is to "force" fighters to pick a stance -- but in doing that, there's also some unintended consequences that I feel they need to address somehow. A "balanced stance" might be viable, but I'm sure they'd also want to make sure that it doesn't become the de facto stance for tanking, effectively short-circuiting thier Vision(tm) of how fighters should work in the post GU51 game.</p>

Prestissimo
01-17-2009, 11:10 PM
<p>From what I understand, paladins have been kept at a low dps, low utility, and low surviveability point purely to compensate for the fact that we have spot heals (which are thank god finally decent heals rather than putting a bandaid on a severed limb), and because we have the oh so godly amends that passively gives us all of our hate and likewise will allow us better hate control than any other tank in the game.</p><p>Seeing as amends is now nothing more than an over glorified rescue on a shorter timer (which will NOT give us enough hate to fully function in high dps groups) that makes me inclined to believe that you'll take the [Removed for Content] stick out of the paladin's rear end since we are now essencially guardians minus the reactive hate and minus the defensive abilities.  Without our "over powered" threat transfer, we're nothing more than a regular tank, and thus, should be given similar stats/defensive abilities/dps/utility/mitigation/avoidance/taunt values purely so that we are balanced.  Amends is why paladins was sub-par in all the other categories purely due to the fact that the paladin could actually focus on everything else besides hate, which is no longer the case, and thus means that we should be given proper consideration to reflect this.</p>

Irgun
01-18-2009, 08:58 AM
<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>From what I understand, paladins have been kept at a low dps, low utility, and low surviveability point purely to compensate for the fact that we have spot heals (which are thank god finally decent heals rather than putting a bandaid on a severed limb), and because we have the oh so godly amends that passively gives us all of our hate and likewise will allow us better hate control than any other tank in the game.</p><p>Seeing as amends is now nothing more than an over glorified rescue on a shorter timer (which will NOT give us enough hate to fully function in high dps groups) that makes me inclined to believe that you'll take the [Removed for Content] stick out of the paladin's rear end since we are now essencially guardians minus the reactive hate and minus the defensive abilities.  Without our "over powered" threat transfer, we're nothing more than a regular tank, and thus, should be given similar stats/defensive abilities/dps/utility/mitigation/avoidance/taunt values purely so that we are balanced.  Amends is why paladins was sub-par in all the other categories purely due to the fact that the paladin could actually focus on everything else besides hate, which is no longer the case, and thus means that we should be given proper consideration to reflect this.</p></blockquote><p>Very well explained.</p><p>So, change amends back to how it is right now on live, and maybe reduce the transfer to 25% in order to balance it out since most amends-targets parse over 10k dps, thx.</p>

Prestissimo
01-19-2009, 03:44 AM
<p>I'd like to ahead of time appologize for this massive wall of text, but seriously, a developer NEEDs to read this.  Its quite apparent that they have no idea just how big of a concern this is to most paladins, and if nothing else, I seriously hope that it becomes very clear how much we care just by seeing how much time and effort I have put into this giant 2 piece post explaining why myself and probably many others as a paladin feel so shafted.  I have spent literally months straight pulling apart numbers and testing things, reading up on forums, asking veteran players as well as testing different group make ups and abilities, as well as testing tricks on different mobs.  I've commited approximately a minimum of 6 hours every day on work days, and between 12-20 hours on non-work days towards my paladin and being the best I can be with him.  I'm most definately not the best paladin by any means, but I meticulously work every day on improving him and my abilities to be as good as I can possibly be, and when I tank for a group, it shows very quickly that I know what I'm doing.  Hopefully all of those thousands of hours of work and effort were not in vain and someone actually pays attention to this.  If not, then it will be obvious that SOE does not want to have tanks anymore and are playing their "Effective immediately kill EQ2" card and I for one will cancel my subscription and permanently quit this game if people like Aeralik are allowed to continue to behave like a young child in an unmonitored candy shop.  It may seem like a good idea at the time, but you are doing alot more harm than you think you are and you need to have a proper grasp on the situation before acting.I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm not in the slightest married to my amends and would have no issue dumping it on the side of the road like an old worn out couch, nor am I uncapable of generating my own hate through other methods.  I am not in the slightest upset because amends is going away, but rather I am flaming furious at the fact that it is going away and is being replaced by a significantly inferior ability.  The other reason I'm upset is because not only is amends being replaced by a much weaker ability, but hate generated towards other npcs by hostile/beneficial actions is disappearing as well.  Believe it or not, that is a second gigantic kick in the paladin's pants because that is the other half of most paladin's hate gain.For example:  When I'm in an instance fighting against a mob that aoes my group like the named tentacles in Chelsith, I'll throw in my group heal, which hits everyone for about 1,200 health.  For example if you assume that one heal = 1/2 point threat, thats a heal of 7,200 non-crit and likewise basically a taunt for 3,600.  Even if it was 1/4 point of threat per point of heal, it would still be higher than the high end of my encounter taunt (which is the paladins biggest taunt spare AA taunts and rescue).  It is a VERY effective tool at immediately snapping agro off of whom ever has it at that moment and allowing me to lock down agro.  The reason why is because even assuming one quarter of a point of hate per point of heal, it is STILL more than what our encounter taunt was prior to GU51, and holy crap, the best part about it is that it never gets resisted!  Very much UNlike my master excoriation which is running about a 45-50% resist rate even considering my 450 aggression and the fact that it's master I is a level 76 spell and 41% harder to resist.  This fact in itself leaves me very uneasy about Restitution being 37% harder and level 73.  When I drop consecration durring a fight with books in scion of ice, say 2 groups of the books, say 10 mobs (I don't remember how many books are normally in the group) that I'm continuously hitting with about a 500-550 damage, thats not only hitting for the 500-550 damage worth of hate on the mob, but on the others as well, and the hate generated due to the fact that other npcs are getting hate due to the damage done to the other npcs.  Consecration ends up being MUCH MUCH larger than just the 500-550 damage.  If you count in the Smite Evil hitting for approximately 5k on each, and the circle of conviction that also hits for about 2.3k on each, and my castigation that dispells probably 2 dots and hits for a total of about 6-7k on each, and the doom aura that hits for about 3.5k on each, and circular smite which hits for about 1k on each, and count what my 41% amends is doing from say a warlock and sigil of heroism on the group while that warlock drops acid rain, appocalypse, rift, and all of their gigantic spells at the start of the fight, thats easily over 1.5 million hate burst out in the first 15-20 seconds of the fight.  Of course by the time that all of this has occured, I've hit my Divine aura after having used my pathetic ONE attack blocked from my oh so amazing end line ability in the TSO tree, and the other ability purely for the heals, I've burned my Sacrement, and my Celestial touch, and am straight spamming heals until the fight is done but more than likely we all usually die unless we can burn down half of those books before divine aura wears off.  So although I generated way more hate in that period of time than ANY tank other than a paladin could have ever come close to, I still spend almost all of the remaining 1 minute fight healing after that initial about 7 seconds.  The main form of hate in that situation would be aoes and hate generated due to action against the mob or benefical action on my allies/myself and hardly any taunts if any even at all.Against single target mobs, I practically never taunt because for one, they never hit at any form of a reliable rate, and secondly because the paladins pathetic 1.5k taunts are nothing in comparison to the hate I can generate from well timed healing or warding on myself or others, or even from keeping the mob stunned so that it can't do anything while I cure myself and heal the group or hit it with refusal of attonement/break will.  The reason paladins don't taunt much is because you guys made the paladins taunts... well frankly, outright suck to the point that we can't even use them without lowering our potential and not playing to the best of our abilities.  When you are playing with top of the line players that are good at what they do, you need to be at the top of your game as well.  Even if your other group members are not playing at their best, it also doesn't mean that you can't play your best either.  Doing anything other than the best that you are capable of would be illogical and you couldn't in good concience say that you were doing your best and living up to being the tank that you could be if you strictly tried to play only by the way that the developers wanted you to play.  If the developers want a specific ability or trait to be the better way to go, then they should make it not only viable but also reasonable, obtainable within reason, and make a it so that there is a definate advantage towards using it.  If you force people to do it purely because the big bad developers are going to spank everyone and take away their toys if they don't use the method that is inferior but is the way they want you to do it, then no one is going to like it, and your going to make many people very mad as well as have problems with no one doing it.  I assume some of the developers are parents, so use the example of trying to get a child to do something that you want them to do.  If you basically threaten them with time out or punish them and take away their toys purely because they don't want to read a bibliography when they're 5, it's just going to backfire and get worse and harder to get what you want that child to do.  You're not going to make that child do something that they don't want to do without fighting them tooth and nail the entire way, most likely because what you want them to do is either not fun, they are not interested, or they are not capable of it.  The difference between the players and the child is that the child wont reason with you.  Most players are reasonable and are willing to accept change as long as you keep in mind that it is a game and the goal is to have fun, not to sit there and let someone force a bad change down their throat with no regards to just how badly you are destroying their character's ability to function, especially when that character is their pride and joy in the game.  They will not just sit there and get violated and screwed out of all the effort and time and energy they put into gearring up their character and learning their class just so that you can force them to do something completely different and something that physically does not function properly yet purely and simply because you think thats the way it should be done regardless of wether it works or not.Now, consider for a moment that you, Aeralik, have determined that the paladins are single target tanks contrary to the fact that up until your decision to change us, we were the BEST aoe tanks but it was not only because of amends even though it was a very good percentage of the contribution, but it was equally because of how the player controlled the paladin and the amends target knowing how to play with a paladin.  Now you are arbitrarily flipping our role, and are taking away our main tool for generating hate, and as if that wasn't enough already, you are additionally taking away our only other real tool for generating hate and what the paladins have focused on and spent alot of time perfecting for so long on top of all that.  What should the paladins not be upset about?  You didn't take away assassins Execute, nor did you take away the inquisitor's Verdict, nor did you take away the shadowknights Harm Touch, nor anyone elses big spells, nor have you ever completely taken away anything even close to as significant as the paladin's amends, and yet here is the paladins once again getting nerfed.  Seriously, why do you hate the paladin so much?  I will admit that amends in itself had potential to be extremely overpowered, but up until characters were doing WAY too much dps, it was never a problem.  The problem is that now every character is on dps crack, and amends is happily sitting there doing it's job, and because of extremely poor balancing issues that were implimented into the game, it broke Amends, not the other way around, and now the paladins are being stripped of their class defining ability because of other classes issues, and by absolutely no fault of the paladin.  How on earth would you not understand why the paladins are upset?Amends for an example with numbers to show just how much it really did, generated 41% of a 6k dpsing toons hate (approximately 2,500dps worth of hate or 150,000 damage worth of hate per minute) or generated 41% of a 2k dpsing toons hate (approximately 800dps worth of hate or 48,000 damage worth of hate per minute) at their base values not counting modifiers or blame arrow or anything like that.  Back before amends was pushed to the point of overpowered, that 2k dps amends target really wasn't the end all tank all no matter what happened, it just allowed paladins to control hate much easier.  Now that people are doing absolutely rediculous amounts of dps, it's pushed amends to the point where it is now a godly spell, because it is functioning as intended.  Looking at the amends replacement screen shots posted above it shows generating a total of about 20k threat each minute that it's reuseable (approximately 333 hate per second).  The ONLY way that this replacement will even match what amends did for us on that 6k dps amends target is if that hate counts for the SAME amount of hate as 8 damage per point of threat.  I'm pretty sure that you have not altered the value of threat to be 8 times greater than one point of damage.  Are you really going to tell us that it is a fair trade off?  I've amended healers that give more hate than this pathetic excuse of a replacement spell gives us.  For our entire class to be completely gimped to balance out one of the most powerful spells in the game, and then to replace it with a cheap piece of crap and not retroactively boost the paladin to where it SHOULD be now that we will no longer have that spell that was the only reason that we were kept lower than everyone else is a gigantic slap in the face.  Assuming that 1 point of threat equals one point of damage, you either need to really pump up that replacement spell to compensate for how much really is being lost, approximately 8 times more hate output than what it is doing right now JUST to break even with what amends did and thats not even including the ability to generate hate from other mobs via aoe and actions taken against other npcs, or you really need to pump up the paladin so that they are no longer gimped because we no longer will have that one spell that was the entire reason and source of why the paladin was kept gimped when everyone else was pumped way up.</p>

Prestissimo
01-19-2009, 03:44 AM
<p><strong>Part 2</strong></p><p>A VERY simple solution to the problem would be to pump up the paladin so that they are on par with other tanks seeing as they'll never be the agro kings again after those 2 changes that you've made, and make threats worth 10 times the amount of hate that they currently are worth as of GU50.  Either that, or increase the amount that the taunts are hitting for and make the threat from taunts worth a few times more hate than the amount of hate damage/heals/buffs creates.  I saw that you have increased the amount of threat on taunts significantly and added it to a couple things in GU51 on the test server last night when I was on it so it is apparent that you are aware that the taunts are no where near strong enough on the paladin prior GU51 to compensate for the amount of hate that the paladins are losing with the removal of amends.  Something you should do in addition, after modifying threat so that it really is worth using, put aggression onto gear that is actually considered tank gear so that the average instance running tank can obtain a *MINIMUM* of 60% hit rate on taunts assuming that they obtain a reasonable level of tank gear.  Fully geared out raiders should have tanks that will hit their taunts about 95% of the time on an even level heroic 1^ or 2^ non-named mob.  I would assume that a fully raid buffed and top of the line raid geared tank would hit about 90% of the time even on yellow epic names, and maybe 75-80% on orange con epic mobs.  That way, it really IS tanking via threat, not praying that it hits and watching for the healers to splat.  In raids, the tanks still rely very strongly on hate transfers and hate gained by dps.  If you cold turkey them and expect their taunts to hold up to a raid doing 150k-200k dps, you are very mistaken.  Say that 520 is the hard cap, and it will give you 75% hit rate on an orange con epic 4x named mob.  In order to do that, you would have to make it so that by the time a guild had access to a mastered out toon of every class, they also should have had access to the gear that would fill in the gaps to give them 520 aggression maybe more in case mobs debuff that skill, maybe even 520 if theres none that do or if there are but you want to leave a reason for the healers to be more diligent on cures or an uncureable that would mean that the dps would have to watch their damage rates.  Wouldn't that be sweet if for every *different* class of player in a raid, you gained another so much aggression and have it built into the defensive stance?  That would mean that raids would actually WANT to use all of the classes rather than just carry a dirge, healers, brigand, monk/bruiser, main tank, and the rest assassins/wizards/coercers/illusionists.  An ideal addition to this would also be to remove the penalty to offensive abilities on the defensive stance, and replace it with an overall reduction in damage output while in defensive stance, and modify the hate on the offensive stance so that it decreases hate gain by 10% and all taunts effectively do nothing.  This would discourage tanks from abusing their "deagro" threat possitions while still allowing them to be tanks.  If you leave it where the sneering assault and the like do - threat possitions, whats to stop a tank from putting on straight scout dps gear and just becoming a new breed of auto-attacking scout?  Then they can really abuse the whole bringing every class into the raid for more effectiveness and buffs without losing the dps slot to another tank that never actually tanks.  Also with that change, instead of punishing the threat on attack proc 5 times more than the auto attack's damage due to the decreased hit rate from lack of skill bonuses, it instead actually punishes the damage and allows you to still hit your melee proc to generate hate.  That would make defensive stance definitively from there on out the only way that you could have effective taunts, and would prevent tanks from pretending to be scouts, and between both of those options, it would also allow you the option if you so desired to make an off tank stance with something inbetween for the classes that have more than one definitive defense and offense stance, such as the brawlers.  That way everyone wins.It should be reasonable for a tank to be able to obtain 425 aggression in legendary semi-easy to obtain gear and/or quest end line gear and tier 2 shard armor might have say 440 total aggression on it as an entry level raiding set of gear.  Add to that the defensive stance gives another 2 points of aggression per unique member in the group/raid, and 3 points of aggression for each point in the defensive stance bonus in the TSO fighter tree.  Fabled tank gear could have more so that you could have a little buffer room or have it equivilant to the tier 2 shard armor, because at that point, you'll be approaching 520.  At what ever you determine to be the "normal" rate for a legendary tank, they should be able to hit most easier heroic mobs in the instances at about a 60-70% rate at minimum since dps is no longer supposed to be the crutch for keeping agro, so that really only leaves tanks with taunts and thats about it.  As it *currently* stands, if you added even a little aggression to some tank gear, it would reach this desired amount, then all you'd have to do is alter the resist rates of taunts, OR alter the amount of difference that aggression would normally do based on the mob's stregnth.  For example, say that a tank with 450 aggression has a 5k threat, and at 500 aggression it is at 7k threat.  That would increase the taunts in line with the increase of stregnth that the raid gear gives all classes.  Currently, the ONLY thing that does not get stronger as you progress and gear up is taunt stregnth, and that above all things is the one thing now that taunts are supposed to do all the hate that should be the first thing to increase, otherwise you're going to be doing nothing more than punishing the raiders for getting higher dps.  Being a dps toon as a main, I would assume that you understand how bad of an idea that would be.  Once you figure out the whole progressively increasing stegnth of taunts, it will make taunting the only way to go, assuming it remains strong enough to keep hate off of the really high dpsing/utility toons (I.E. those that do 10-11k damage per second and spike alot such as assassins that in groups "spike" a constantly steady 6k dps over 2 minutes if their worth their salt, or 10-12k for 2 minutes on raids, and wizards that spike randomly from 6k dps up to 15k dps because of random 72k ice bolts or something like that).  Enchanter's buffs pull lots of agro, healing pulls lots of agro, dps doesn't pull as much anymore because it is getting enough alternative ways to decrease agro on it, where as nothing else is getting hardly any attention.  A good and easy way to fix this would be to make one point of buff effect, one point of healing, and one point of damage all equal the same amount of hate, and make threat significantly more than either of those three.  If you do that though, everything will become basically easy mode tank and spank, so you would have to modify the rates so that eventually if the tank is slacking it will allow even a healer or a utility to pull agro.Then the only problem remaining is the fact that in tank gear and defensive stance or even offensive stance, a tank will not be able to solo anything at all.  Therefore, make a set of dps gear with a penalty towards aggression/taunts and damage proc or increased damage, and a set of tank gear with increases to taunts/aggression and decreases to damage output.  The tank gear could have a much stronger focus on defensive attributes and maybe a set or item effect for tanking items that decrease the amount of power taunts take and decrease damage output so that when it procs or is active, it makes them more efficient tanks and less efficient dpsers.  It will also allow for more than one tank to be in a raid and still be able to contribute something worth while.  These types of things would allow the tank to focus on being a tank while in tank mode such as taunting and what not, while also preventing them from being the top of the parses at the same time, or if a tank wants to come along on the raid but theres already a main tank, they can use their dps mode and gear to be a part of the dps groups.  Or you could possibly chose to wear a hybrid of the gear if you're main assisting so you can switch stances at will and have some tank items at the sacrifice of dps when you're not tanking, and sacrifice of tanking ability when in tank mode.  You could really be gung-ho and allow people to change gear in fights one piece at a time with the cost of a so many second removal of half their stats, attributes, and defensive abilities so that if people need to adjust, they actually CAN, especially seeing as this game is all about different scenarios and how you handle each one.In closing, my suggestion to you, as politely and civil as I can muster through my still intense anger at Aeralik right now is that you quickly learn just how big of an epic nerf you have hit the paladin with by removing amends and compensate either in hate or in everything else that was lacking because amends was so strong, and do the math to figure out just how much of a difference it will make to the multimob tanks now that you are removing almost all of the aoe hate gain.  Especially since you JUST gave the berzerker and shadowknights their cake, and right as they are starting to enjoy it, you are about to take it away.  Again.  Or, if you can't do those things like a developer should be doing prior to completely overhauling the frail balance that kept things semi-functioning, please do us all a favor and don't mess with what you don't yet understand.  Arbitrary flipping of roles this late in the game is bad enough considering we are no longer what we initially signed up for, and personally I feel that an option to betray over to the other side with equivilant spells/epic weapons granted would be very appreciated since you turned the shadowknight into a paladin and the paladin into the shadowknight which is effectively the same thing as if you logged into your assassin one day and found him to be a ranger.  But its not like arbitrary class changes are the worst of it.  You are in addition taking away the ONE thing that this class has that seperates it from others.  That is completely unjust and then to replace it with something far inferior is just adding extreme insult to the injury.  Then if we weren't already crippled enough by this, you then decide that you're also going to take away yet another primary form of agro gain that the paladins have come to rely on equally as much as amends.  You have successfully slaped us in the face as hard as you can physically achieve short of going in and ninja deleting every paladin without warning.  In terms that you can understand, take away the assassins hate transfer, take away decapitate, take away their poisons, all of their back stab abilities, take away all the damage bonuses from their mythical, take away their stealth abilities, take away double attack, and turn them into ranged only, while only allowing them to use a symbol, and you have approximately what you have done to us in this expansion.  If it wasn't a big enough hint for you, we DON'T like the way things are currently in test.  We tank for a living, and we would very much appreciate being left able to do so when the dust clears, wether it be through amends, or through another means, but please do NOT pretend that this one pathetic taunt is going to magically band-aid replace a hate transfer that is several dozen times more powerfull than any other taunt currently in this game, or that by doing one or two tiny little adjustments is going to replace what many people have built their ENTIRE character around for many years purely because up until this moment it was the only thing that we actually had.  Soon, if you continue down this path, the paladin will have absolutely nothing going for them other than a very large amount of time wasted and a very strong hatred for you beyond anything that you've seen before, and there will be folks out there that will see this as the absolute last straw and will try to do something drastic about it.  As it stands, I know of at least 1 major raiding paladin that has permanently quit this game and you are very much able to be blamed for that because of what you are doing and how much time paladins will have to spend re-learning their class just to be inferior to any other class in existance and those many months worth of time and trial and error and testing and refining the class will have to be completely respent all over again, and not all of us have that kind of time.  If you look at how many paladins have betrayed to shadowknight since the shadowknight overhaul, you should be able to imagine what will happen when you take away the only thing that allows paladins to be goodat that one and only thing that they've ever and always been good at.If the paladin is not supposed to be the end all best aggro controlling tank, then you had better give them something else to be awsome at to replace what you took away, or make them even in all aspects to the other tanks, in which case you honestly should give every paladin an option to betray to any tank class that they want to with equivilant gear and spells if you decide to make them the same as every one else.  Amends made them the niche toon for the last 4 years at controlling agro.  Revoking what made them who they are now this late in the game is very not funny and without it, the paladin is now dead last on EVERYTHING.  Not just everything minus one.</p>

SnowKnight
01-19-2009, 09:25 AM
<p>Mind putting in paragraphs? That is quite an impressive wall of text.</p>

Boli32
01-19-2009, 10:21 AM
<p>Pictures would be nice also... popup if ya can with nice sounds and chewable corners <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I got to the second paragraph and I think I just regressed back into childhood <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Arastir
01-19-2009, 11:39 AM
<p>I will applaud your effort ReverendPago, but those two walls of text are simply not conducive to getting anybody to read them.  I did read it, as I have every other post in these 14 pages so far.  Problem is, with all that text, you didn't really say anything that hasn't already been mentioned previously.</p>

Full_Metal_Mage
01-19-2009, 01:45 PM
<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>{{wall of text}}</blockquote><p>Aerlik is never going to read this for two reasons. 1) You posted this in the Paladin forum. 2) You used big words that are beyond Aerlik's comprehension. Words like 'tank' and 'aggression'</p>

Prestissimo
01-19-2009, 07:06 PM
<p>He does however understand really large numbers and only pays attention to how many digits it is.  So I figured that although it's all been said already, and although he'd never read it, he may look at it and think "that must have taken some time.  and thats almost as big as assassins dps is... these guys might just be able to understand my bigger dps = everythings better system and might not be as worthless as i thought."  and hopefully the size would similarly attract another developers attention.  Or if we insult his intelligence enough, he just might feel compelled to prove us wrong and actually read it to spite us, and in doing so, get the entire thread in one go.  Either way, it's all in vain, so might as well make it visually impressive.</p><p>Besides, if all of us go into test and feedback the same things, it will be the same as if we all post it in the forums, so might as well make my submission additionally in a form that will be seen by more than just aeralik that looks at it and disregards it once he sees the word paladin in it.</p><p>Edit: seperated into paragraphs :p  I'm really bad about paragraphs because I'm normally a speaker rather than writer.</p>

Tharinor Degaulle
01-19-2009, 09:22 PM
<p>1)  Nobody will ever read that.  First thing they teach you in business communications is that the more concise and less you write, the more likely it is to be read.  You failed miserably and I doubt anyone at SOE even if they saw it would read more than the first couple of sentences.  It just looks like a bunch of rambling.</p><p>2)  Sign of the times:  I retired from Ascendant, and immediately they opened apps to Guardians, leaving Paladin slot closed.  They had no other Paladins, and already had a Guardian (one of the advisors) and also an SK recruit (he's likely to pass vote unless someone is stupid with their vote).</p><p>Nobody in their right mind will take a well played Paladin over a well played Guardian going forward.  SOE should just give Paladins a free reroll to 80 Guardian, and Zerkers a free reroll to 80 SK, and eliminate the completely unnecessary and counter-productive sub-classes since they are completely unconcerned with making it where they will all have a spot on raids and viable/competative at what they are supposed to be able to do.</p>

Prestissimo
01-19-2009, 11:51 PM
<p>The only problem with what you said Tharinor is that you have already admited defeat and have chosen to do nothing rather than do something.  Even if my doing something is completely for nothing or makes no impact at all, at least I can say that I'm trying everything that I can think of.  You are doing nothing other than /quit and posting around in different places how you've already quit and are done trying all the while passively trying to get others to give into the same hopelessness that you feel over all of this.</p><p>Have you seen someone take that much time to try to defend their class?  Since nothing else up to this point seems to have worked, I'm trying any and everything that I can in a desperate attempt to hopefully save the class that I love to play.  I am not content to sit back and accept that all of what I've worked for and enjoyed building will go down in a flaming failure, especially before it actually fails and still has time to change for the better.</p><p>Business communications doesn't fully apply when your talking about a conceted arogant developer that has the forethought capabilities of a child, and thus is prone only to his own shallow thought process and behaviors without any form of reasoning or compassion from outside influences.  Business communication requires that the person you are talking to be reasonable.  Therefore, nothing we will do will convince Aeralik to change what he's already done, even if we do 100 million in-test feed backs. </p><p>If I'm wrong, then lets see Aeralik post in this thread about how he is actually reading things and actually does care that most of us actually doing something HAVE tried it in test, and are definately not happy with it.  He said he's open to feedback, but only from those that have tried it.  Well, I tried it, and it sucks.  Try again.  Wheres your feedback Tharinor?</p><p>What *could* actually make a difference is if the developers see that the paladins aren't content to just roll over and take it in the back side again, and not only care about their class, but are willing to put time and effort into it.  You have already shown that you are not about to be one that will contribute towards that end.</p><p>I'm sure that all of this will be a complete waste of time, and that no one will care in the slightest, but when this is all over and done with, I will have at least exhausted all of the ideas and methods that I could come up with rather than sitting on my hands whining about "the times".  As I recall, this is not the only time paladins have been hated on by the developers, and it most certainly wont be the last time.  But if people keep taking the type of attitude that you have taken, then why SHOULD the developers care?</p><p>I'm going to keep fighting my fight until the changes have occured.  If it ends up staying as bad as it is now, then I'll be quitting as well AFTER the change has occured.  In the mean time though, please do not belittle the few of us that still carry enough pride in our class to fight with an ignorant hope that it can actually make a change, because for all you know, it just might.</p>

deathtoyou5
01-21-2009, 08:02 PM
<p>well if these changes go threw i 6 box  a group with a pally being my main tank, so if this goes threw say goodbye to my $90 a month.</p>

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM
01-21-2009, 08:35 PM
<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only problem with what you said Tharinor is that you have already admited defeat and have chosen to do nothing rather than do something.  Even if my doing something is completely for nothing or makes no impact at all, at least I can say that I'm trying everything that I can think of.  You are doing nothing other than /quit and posting around in different places how you've already quit and are done trying all the while passively trying to get others to give into the same hopelessness that you feel over all of this.</p><p>Have you seen someone take that much time to try to defend their class?  Since nothing else up to this point seems to have worked, I'm trying any and everything that I can in a desperate attempt to hopefully save the class that I love to play.  I am not content to sit back and accept that all of what I've worked for and enjoyed building will go down in a flaming failure, especially before it actually fails and still has time to change for the better.</p><p>Business communications doesn't fully apply when your talking about a conceted arogant developer that has the forethought capabilities of a child, and thus is prone only to his own shallow thought process and behaviors without any form of reasoning or compassion from outside influences.  Business communication requires that the person you are talking to be reasonable.  Therefore, nothing we will do will convince Aeralik to change what he's already done, even if we do 100 million in-test feed backs. </p><p>If I'm wrong, then lets see Aeralik post in this thread about how he is actually reading things and actually does care that most of us actually doing something HAVE tried it in test, and are definately not happy with it.  He said he's open to feedback, but only from those that have tried it.  Well, I tried it, and it sucks.  Try again.  Wheres your feedback Tharinor?</p><p>What *could* actually make a difference is if the developers see that the paladins aren't content to just roll over and take it in the back side again, and not only care about their class, but are willing to put time and effort into it.  You have already shown that you are not about to be one that will contribute towards that end.</p><p>I'm sure that all of this will be a complete waste of time, and that no one will care in the slightest, but when this is all over and done with, I will have at least exhausted all of the ideas and methods that I could come up with rather than sitting on my hands whining about "the times".  As I recall, this is not the only time paladins have been hated on by the developers, and it most certainly wont be the last time.  But if people keep taking the type of attitude that you have taken, then why SHOULD the developers care?</p><p>I'm going to keep fighting my fight until the changes have occured.  If it ends up staying as bad as it is now, then I'll be quitting as well AFTER the change has occured.  In the mean time though, please do not belittle the few of us that still carry enough pride in our class to fight with an ignorant hope that it can actually make a change, because for all you know, it just might.</p></blockquote><p>You can't blame Aeralik for the changes, and you can't call him "arrogant" or whatever else. I'm pretty sure he's not solely responsible for it. While I strongly disagree with the direction they have chosen for the paladin (and has pretty much ensured I don't play EQ2 in any regular capacity anymore), at least show some sort of respect when voicing your opinions.</p><p>This last xpac imo wasn't very good, around the same realms of Desert of Flames in how "good" it was. This game is dying, and it's because they lost focus on what worked and what didn't when Scott Hartsman left. What you are seeing now with the changes to Paladins (and the changes to come to the rest of the tanks) are merely EQ2 entering it's death throws, eventually to be put right up there with Vanguard and Conan as the best failed MMOs on the market.</p><p>It sux, because I really did love this game, for almost 5 years I really did love this game.</p><p>Don't hate on the devs, they do what they're told, hate on the people above them if you have to focus your anger on anyone. The devs are just doing their jobs the way they're told and trying to enjoy doing something kinda kewl for work. All of them put a lot of effort, love and pride in the work they do, albeit not every agrees with the direction they are given on where to take the game. Contrary to popular belief, the devs aren't some evil scheming force finding new and interesting ways to [Removed for Content] off their player base...that's the job of the people entrusted with making the game make money, and most of the time, they don't even know how to turn on a computer...</p><p>If you want to give some feedback, great, go ahead, I won't be, I give up at this point, good luck to the rest of you...what has already been decided upon will happen, the only thing you can do now is try to mold the upcoming changes into something everyone can at least live with, but I guarentee you there will be no going back to how Paladins were...that wasn't the directions given to the grunts from on high...the law of the land has been laid down, now you will have to find a compromise you are comfortable with or just give up.</p>

Prestissimo
01-21-2009, 08:48 PM
<p>The reason I hate on Aeralik is because the assassin is the only one that keeps getting new sets of golden underwear while everyone else gets nerfed.</p><p>Any developer worth their beans would also have remembered and considered the spiders in tomb of thuuga before taking away everything spare taunts to hold agro with.</p>

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM
01-22-2009, 12:17 AM
<p>I found that fear immunity was more important when dealing with Thuuga, I usually MT'd and just had someone else run around dealing with spiders on the mistress. I would pick up a lot of them towards the end with AEs to help the OT out, but usually let the OT handle most of them. The trash mobs were more dependant on having fear immunity to really keep things under control than amends. The spiders the mistress seem to ignore everything but damage anyways, I never found amends or sigil very helpful on the widow mistress except to tank the named itself.</p><p>The biggest problems I see from the change in amends is encounters like Pawbuster, where amends was key to a paladin keeping him facing the right direction. I've always done me and a guard or another pally tanking pawbuster to keep him where he needs to be.</p><p>The other issue is with stifles. Guardians have an ability that basically is an auto taunt (I forget the name, it's been a long time since I played my guard). Each time they get hit it either procs a taunt on that mob or has a chance to proc a taunt. (again, it used to be on always, but I think it changed to a chance to proc at some point, but I could be wrong). There's some nice AE hate generation right there in situations where you may be stifled or stunned. Where where would we still be able to do such a thing? Amends was basically our equivalent to that ability. Sigil doesn't do anything for you if you are stifled or stunned before using it.</p><p>From what I understand AE damage when not direct will no longer generate hate on the other targets. That's all fine and dandy for mages and such, but what about the mechanics of paladin tanking? That's one thing that helped us be a good tank. You see an add, or whatever, you get close and AE like mad to stick it on you. What will happen now? I really hope I'm wrong that our ability to pick up groups or adds hasn't been diminished from this addition. Otherwise instead of the squishies getting smacked down, you get the healers dying because they've generated too much hate while you aren't generating any on the rest of the mobs. I hope I'm misunderstanding the AE changes.</p>

AziBam
01-22-2009, 01:29 PM
<p>Couple things:</p><p>1) AE damage still causes hate.  You hit 4 mobs with 1000 points of damage each and each one hates your for 1000 pts worth of threat.  It used to be that you ALSO gained a small amount of hate spread amongst the 4.  You hit mob A for 1000 and the other three also hate you a bit extra just because you hit their buddy.  That "extra" hate is now gone but the main damage still remains.</p><p>2) Assassins no longer have a hate transfer.  It's a proc dethreat.</p><p>3)  <strong>Main point I wanted to mention.  How about making the new amends castable while under control effects such as stun, stifle etc.?  Not precisely passive hate but accomplishes the same thing (in a much stronger fashion than what the basic threat procs off of the other fighter stances would generate.) It also might be a compromise between what amends was and what they seem to want it to be.  </strong></p>

Anurra
01-22-2009, 02:50 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>3) <strong>Main point I wanted to mention. How about making the new amends castable while under control effects such as stun, stifle etc.? Not precisely passive hate but accomplishes the same thing (in a much stronger fashion than what the basic threat procs off of the other fighter stances would generate.) It also might be a compromise between what amends was and what they seem to want it to be. </strong></p></blockquote><p>I agree. I mentioned this in my other post. It'd be an easy way to fix the passive aggro generation and still make the flavor of the class somewhat similiar. It will also help when and if we have to heal ourselves.</p>

Eueadan
01-23-2009, 11:37 PM
<p>I didn't want to cross-post, but wanted the devs to consider responding to the question in this thread.  Just a question that I think would help frame the discussion:</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=441712">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=441712</a></p>

Kordran
01-25-2009, 01:53 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The biggest problems I see from the change in amends is encounters like Pawbuster, where amends was key to a paladin keeping him facing the right direction. I've always done me and a guard or another pally tanking pawbuster to keep him where he needs to be.</p></blockquote><p>Just to point out, with GU51 the single-target taunt has a faster recast, lower power cost and can be cast while stunned or stifled. Hopefully that, along with Restitution, Faithful Cry, Sigil, etc. will be enough to allow the Paladin to control him. That said, Amends made it easier for Paladins to tank him, but it certainly wasn't a requirement. A lot of raids do him with a Guardian as MT, Berserker as the OT. It just requires more coordination, and is admittedly more of a pain, but it is perfectly doable.</p>

Kodros
01-26-2009, 03:21 PM
<p>I wouldn't mind seeing a threat increase when using heals in defensive stance.   </p>

Kordran
01-26-2009, 03:39 PM
<p><cite>Kodros wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I wouldn't mind seeing a threat increase when using heals in defensive stance.</p></blockquote><p>The Paladin's heals and ward have had their threat generation increased by 300%, according to Aeralik. Unfortunately, it's not parseable, so there's no concrete way to measure it as part of the Paladin's overall threat-per-second.</p>

Eueadan
01-26-2009, 05:23 PM
<p>Since Kiara wants everything in this thread, I will post here:<span ><span style="color: #ffffff;"> </span></span></p><p>Aeralik, in reading through all the Amends discussion, I see several trends in the various posts that lead to a question.  The answer to the question might help everyone to understand what is going on, and how to best give feedback.</p><p>The question:</p><p>What, exactly, is the paladin's role:</p><p>(a) Solo (i.e. what can they do better than other classes);</p><p>(b) In groups (i.e. why/when would a group want to choose a Paladin over other tanks);</p><p>and</p><p>(c) In raids (i.e. why/when is a Paladin essential to have in your raid force, and in what capacity)?</p><p>It seems like everyone is freaking out about amends not because they are overreacting, but because they fear losing any and all roles and advantages that give paladins a reason to exist.</p><p>Put simply, we don't understand how the changes preserve a role for Paladin that is anything other than an inferior form of Guardian.</p><p>If nerfing one "overpowered" ability causes this type of outcry, perhaps the problem is not that people are being childish, perhaps we just don't understand what your vision of our role is, and need some guidance to help you fix it.</p><p>Obviously, many paladins previously thought paladins were supposed to excel in hate control, and saw amends as essential to that role.</p><p>Perhaps we could give you better, legimate feedback regarding how to balance paladin if we understood your vision...i.e. the reason that taking away amends in its present form makes sense.</p><p>I have read your "hate changes" post numerous times, and still cannot figure out what it means for Paladins, and how Paladins are supposed to compare to other classes under the new system.</p><p>We understand that you are nerfing amends, and that you want people to have to actively work for hate control.  What does that mean for Paladins' ROLE in the future?  What are we supposed to be able to do better than other classes now?  In what way should we be useful and playable?</p><p>Instead of starting the discussion with "ok guys, now don't be jerks" (which starts the conversation like a drunken sailor throwing insults to pick a fight), perhaps you could say "we have a great vision that will make Paladin a really useful, but balanced class, please help us determine how to accomplish that."</p><p>Personally, I could care less whether we have amends or not.  I would just like to know what my job is, and how I can help ensure that I can adequately do that job.</p>

VALKOR
01-26-2009, 05:33 PM
<p>We have been directed to use this post for issues relating to the changes to Amends (my mistake for not reading the forum rules) so here are the main issues with it I see after reading a lot of different posts about it.</p><p>1) We are the only single target tank who cannot offer a permanent hate benefit to an ally.  Guardians can reduce an ally's hate gain and monks can siphon/give (9%/5%) their hate from/to an ally.  Paladins have no permanent hate mod benefit which of course is a major change from live.</p><p>2) Paladins only have a single proc once every 37.5 seconds on a successful melee attack for automatic, no power, non-interruptable, works during control effects hate gain.  Guardians have a reactive proc whenever they are damaged (which is going to be quite often as a tank mitigating damage) and monks have a 10 times per minute proc on a successful melee attack.</p><p>Possible Solutions</p><p>1) Have Restitution generate less hate but last 15 seconds and be resuable in 30 rather than more hate at 20 seconds every 60 seconds, and increase the proc rate in defensive to 4 or 5.  This would move Restitution from snap-aggro to nearly always usable ability and allow it to be timed with other abilities, though it would not address the permanent hate mod benefit.</p><p>2) Make Restitution an 11% hate siphon from a single in-group only ally.  This would retain the flavor of the previous Amends, grant the paladin a permanent hate mod, and provide a base amount of aggro on top of which active taunts will grab the mob.  The percentage could obviously be tweaked to keep it so that paladins only have a slight aggro edge over guardians and monks.</p><p>3) Make Restitution a 7% hate siphon and require the paladin to spend 1 AA point to add .5% to the siphon amount on the Crusader tree or else start with 6% and gain 1% for every AA point (max of 5) on the Paladin tree.</p>

Eueadan
01-27-2009, 04:41 AM
<p>I just noticed an aspect of these changes that I hadn't noticed before.  For the developers please read this closely, as it is not unfounded whining or complaining.</p><p>The crux of the problem:  By focusing solely on group dynamics, these changes are reducing Pallys' survivability solo, and throwing another aspect of the game out of wack.  In trying to "fix" hate transfers, the devs are going through and (1) replacing a bunch of DPS abilities with hate transfer abilities in defensive stance, and (2) adding a bunch of damage penalties to pally in offensive stance.  I will detail the changes and make some suggestions below.</p><p>I play solo a lot.  Not because I dislike grouping necessarily but because I have to AFK a lot, and don't want to leave anyone hanging.  I generally play in defensive stance, because I think it offers the best survivability.</p><p>Outside of the group context, this is what devs are doing to DEFENSIVE STANCE:</p><p> (1) They deleted Blessed Weapon (i.e. righteous weapon) and replaced ~800 to ~2400 (against undead) proc damage per minute with a hate increase in Bayle's Stance.</p><p>(2) They deleted Blessing of the Penitent (i.e. Blessing of the Paladin) and incorporated it partially into Bayle's Stance, reducing the STR offered a bit, thereby reducing power marginally and CA damage.</p><p>(3) They decreased the melee damage multiplier by .5, resulting in a 21% reduction in autoattack damage.</p><p>The rest of the stats stay roughly the same, except that parry is increased a little.  So correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like they are decreasing DPS, without drastically increasing defense.  Less solo survivability.</p><p>So, I guess we could just start using OFFENSIVE STANCE:</p><p>(1) They deleted Blessing of the Penitent (i.e. Blessing of the Paladin) and incorporated it partially into Bayle's Stance, reducing the Health bonus by ~50, but increasing the STR offered (formerly through Wrath Stance Blessing) by ~20, offering a 1%-2% increase in DPS.</p><p>(2) They added an extra 5% penalty for all physical damage taken.</p><p>(3) They deleted Blessed Weapon (i.e. righteous weapon) and replaced it with a more powerful version within Wrath Stance.</p><p>So pallys get less health and a 5% damage penalty, but (at least by my calculations) not enough extra DPS through the replacements for Blessed Weapon and Blessing of the Penitent to cover the difference.  Again, less solo survivability.</p><p>So what if we wanted to compensate by going NO STANCE:</p><p>(1) You lose ALL bonuses from Blessed Weapon, because it was removed.</p><p>(2) You lose ALL bonuses from Blessing of the Penitent, because it was removed.</p><p>(3) You lose all bonuses that you would otherwise get from either of the stances.</p><p>Again, less solo survivability.</p><p>I just want to be sure that in the context of all of the group and raid discussions, no one is ignoring the apparent solo paladin nerf.</p><p>To fix the problems, i would suggest the following:</p><p>(1) Leave Blessed Weapon and Blessing of the Penitent as separate skills, just like they are.</p><p>(2) Increase the proc rate on Blessed Weapon if in offensive stance; add a threat effect to the proc in defensive stance. </p><p>(3) Leave Blessing of the Paladin alone.</p><p>(4) Remove the physical damage penalty for offensive stance.  This has nothing to do with hate, and changing taunts so they do not work in offensive stance should be enough to discourage people from using offensive stance in tanking situations.  If the pally cannot taunt, he is not tanking and there is no reason for a damage penalty.</p><p>These changes would preserve the overall aim of focusing the defensive stance as a tank stance, without drastically killing DPS for ALL pally stances, and detrimentally effecting our soloability.  It would also continue to offer pallys no stance and offensive stance options that would be similar to what is on live.</p>

Kordran
01-27-2009, 07:15 AM
<p>I have to ask, have you actually tried copying your Paladin over and testing it? I have, and honestly, the overall effect on soloing is minimal; in fact, I'd say that it's improved somewhat in offensive stance, and it didn't feel substantially different than it is right now in defensive. In truth, the only Paladins I see this affecting negatively would be those who are poorly geared.</p><p>Seriously, while you may think it looks bad on paper, it really isn't in actual gameplay.</p>

Vulkan_NTooki
01-27-2009, 08:49 AM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I have to ask, have you actually tried copying your Paladin over and testing it? I have, and honestly, the overall effect on soloing is minimal; in fact, I'd say that it's improved somewhat in offensive stance, and it didn't feel substantially different than it is right now in defensive. In truth, the only Paladins I see this affecting negatively would be those who are poorly geared.</p><p>Seriously, while you may think it looks bad on paper, it really isn't in actual gameplay.</p></blockquote><p>Its the ones soloing in defensive thats gonna suffer..</p><p>I still solo yellow con^^ trolls on broken skull island as easy on test as on live in offensive.</p><p>I seriously dont see why they add more detrimental effects to the stances than allready was there, but thats their perogative I guess.</p><p>Btw.. our single taunt now can be used through stuns, and they made Divine Favor pretty nice I believe.. no longer stiffled, and blocks the next 2 attacks. Re-cast might still be a tad long tho. But will for sure be up for all named once.</p>

g0thiC_iCe_cReaM
01-27-2009, 10:25 AM
<p>From what I'm hearing in the paladin channel this morning, they've made some decent improvements on everything, so I guess they are listening to us a little.... <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Eueadan
01-27-2009, 10:48 AM
<p><cite>Eueadan wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just noticed an aspect of these changes that I hadn't noticed before.  For the developers please read this closely, as it is not unfounded whining or complaining.</p><p>The crux of the problem:  By focusing solely on group dynamics, these changes are reducing Pallys' survivability solo, and throwing another aspect of the game out of wack.  In trying to "fix" hate transfers, the devs are going through and (1) replacing a bunch of DPS abilities with hate transfer abilities in defensive stance, and (2) adding a bunch of damage penalties to pally in offensive stance.  I will detail the changes and make some suggestions below.</p><p>I play solo a lot.  Not because I dislike grouping necessarily but because I have to AFK a lot, and don't want to leave anyone hanging.  I generally play in defensive stance, because I think it offers the best survivability.</p><p>Outside of the group context, this is what devs are doing to DEFENSIVE STANCE:</p><p> (1) They deleted Blessed Weapon (i.e. righteous weapon) and replaced ~800 to ~2400 (against undead) proc damage per minute with a hate increase in Bayle's Stance.</p><p>(2) They deleted Blessing of the Penitent (i.e. Blessing of the Paladin) and incorporated it partially into Bayle's Stance, reducing the STR offered a bit, thereby reducing power marginally and CA damage.</p><p>(3) They decreased the melee damage multiplier by .5, resulting in a 21% reduction in autoattack damage.</p><p>The rest of the stats stay roughly the same, except that parry is increased a little.  So correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like they are decreasing DPS, without drastically increasing defense.  Less solo survivability.</p><p>So, I guess we could just start using OFFENSIVE STANCE:</p><p>(1) They deleted Blessing of the Penitent (i.e. Blessing of the Paladin) and incorporated it partially into Bayle's Stance, reducing the Health bonus by ~50, but increasing the STR offered (formerly through Wrath Stance Blessing) by ~20, offering a 1%-2% increase in DPS.</p><p>(2) They added an extra 5% penalty for all physical damage taken.</p><p>(3) They deleted Blessed Weapon (i.e. righteous weapon) and replaced it with a more powerful version within Wrath Stance.</p><p>So pallys get less health and a 5% damage penalty, but (at least by my calculations) not enough extra DPS through the replacements for Blessed Weapon and Blessing of the Penitent to cover the difference.  Again, less solo survivability.</p><p>So what if we wanted to compensate by going NO STANCE:</p><p>(1) You lose ALL bonuses from Blessed Weapon, because it was removed.</p><p>(2) You lose ALL bonuses from Blessing of the Penitent, because it was removed.</p><p>(3) You lose all bonuses that you would otherwise get from either of the stances.</p><p>Again, less solo survivability.</p><p>I just want to be sure that in the context of all of the group and raid discussions, no one is ignoring the apparent solo paladin nerf.</p><p>To fix the problems, i would suggest the following:</p><p>(1) Leave Blessed Weapon and Blessing of the Penitent as separate skills, just like they are.</p><p>(2) Increase the proc rate on Blessed Weapon if in offensive stance; add a threat effect to the proc in defensive stance. </p><p>(3) Leave Blessing of the Paladin alone.</p><p>(4) Remove the physical damage penalty for offensive stance.  This has nothing to do with hate, and changing taunts so they do not work in offensive stance should be enough to discourage people from using offensive stance in tanking situations.  If the pally cannot taunt, he is not tanking and there is no reason for a damage penalty.</p><p>These changes would preserve the overall aim of focusing the defensive stance as a tank stance, without drastically killing DPS for ALL pally stances, and detrimentally effecting our soloability.  It would also continue to offer pallys no stance and offensive stance options that would be similar to what is on live.</p></blockquote><p>Or alternatively:</p><p>What about making the .5 auto attack multiplier for Defensive Stance, as well as the 5% damage penalty in offensive, take effect ONLY when the Pally is in a group.</p><p>There is no reason to have these outside of the group setting, so eliminating them when solo would help to alleviate the problem.</p>

VALKOR
01-27-2009, 02:47 PM
<p>Offensive stance will be the way to go for solo.  I didn't test it extensively, but I did well against mobs in offensive stance and worse in defensive stance.  Even when I tackled a heroic, offensive was better than defensive.  As a plate tank, the extra damage you take won't hinder you much at all and the additions to the offensive stance mean you'll do just as well as you do on live when soloing (if not a bit better DPS-wise I think).</p>

Boethius_Permafrost
01-28-2009, 02:19 PM
<p>Is now a good time to bring up divine aura?  It remains useless on raids due to every hit being over half your health.  I would again like to suggest that it prevent UP TO half of the paladin's health, and the excess damage should hit the paladin, but no more.  If a hit is larger than that, then it will still do significant damage, but it should not ignore the divine aura completely.</p><p>Castigate needs to be usable while stunned/stiffled, and it needs to have a much faster cast time.  In order to use it as a cure spell, it needs to be very fast, and when you have multiple effects to cure, at least one of them is going to make you unable to cast.  And it does have a long recast timer already, so it can't hurt to let us actually cast it.</p><p>On the issue of "what is our role," I do not want to be in direct competition for guardians.  Let them be the survival kings, we can be agro kings, berserkers are good all-around with dps too, and I understand that SK's are taking our old role.</p><p>I am encouraged by some of the reports of changes on test, but I regret that I can't come help test them right now.  Please make sure the heals/wards provide a significant amount of threat for the tanking paladin, and possibly give them some effect which scales to the encounter (e.g. chance to add temporary mitigation).  But sounds like you're making progress on test.</p><p>My biggest problem currently on live is interrupts.  Well, that and finding time to play, at the moment. Can I throw in the idea of adding a focus buff to defensive stance, just as a wish list?  Sorry, I got started asking for stuff, and couldn't stop!</p>

Excalibre33
01-29-2009, 10:42 PM
<p>Are you sure you want to be a single target aggro king? Give that some thought.</p><p>That means your niche in the end-game is a /benched second-string MT providing nothing to a raid until farm status is achieved. Expect to ride the pine, not get gear upgrades, and eventually get dropped as dead weight in efficient raiding guilds.</p><p>Granted, increased TPS will allow for a safer increase in raid DPS but, the risk for overall failure due to MT stability is too high, given a more reliable alternative.</p><p><strong>Slightly more aggro is not equivalent to slightly more stability for a tank.</strong> The entire player community will reject a change that made Guardians incapable of holding aggro against any single mob. If aggro is achieved, slightly more is nearly meaningless, making the Paladin's advantage a non-factor and the class' disadvantages the only decision point when forming a roster.</p><p>The only way I see the single target MT niche being actually split is with a massive skewing in TPS to the Paladin's favor that makes raid leaders actually consider taking the EXTREME risk of tanking stability for slightly faster progression.</p><p>-------------------------</p><p>Otherwise I say the Paladin community keeps fighting the clean fight for equality on the survivability front as they are competing for the Guardian's locked down niche now. The perception needs to be that Paladins are just as reliable on a first time pull vs any alternative class jockeying for the same position.</p>

Kordran
01-30-2009, 05:20 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Otherwise I say the Paladin community keeps fighting the clean fight for equality on the survivability front as they are competing for the Guardian's locked down niche now. The perception needs to be that Paladins are just as reliable on a first time pull vs any alternative class jockeying for the same position.</p></blockquote><p>The Guardian class is designed from the ground up to be the premier raiding MT class, and there is no plan to make Paladins their equal. The devs have said that the Paladin will be a "close second" to the Guardian, and any competent raid leader doesn't take second best as their MT. The most Paladins can realistically look forward to is being a backup tank. Not to mention that the relatively few Paladins out there in hardcore raiding guilds are there as OTs; that's the job they wanted. If they wanted to be MTs, well then they would have rolled a Guardian, wouldn't they?</p><p>For a while, I was on the same bandwagon that Guardians and Paladins are competing for the same "space", but cold reflection on the truth shows that they really aren't. Guardians have been, and will continue to be, the main tank class for raids. Casual raiding guilds may use a Paladin, but no serious, hardcore raiding guild who cares about progression would even consider it. It would make absolutely no sense.</p><p>So, where does that leave Paladins? Unfortunately, out in the wilderness. There's no clear role for them in raids, so they're left to tanking heroic instances. And with the majority of encounters in TSO involing muliple (or waves) of mobs, their role there is diminished by being assigned as single-target tanks. The time for the raiding Paladin has pretty much come and gone. I suspect RoK will be thought of as "the good ol' days".</p><p>Edit: On a somewhat humorous note, it's been interesting to read through all of these posts by Paladins in the various threads. They follow the "five stages of grief" almost perfectly. First, there was denial... the developers couldn't be possibly considering this, could they? Then anger... how could they do this!? Then bargaining ... well, if they've taken this away, please give us this and that. Followed by depression ... we're all doomed, this will be the end of the game. And then, finally, there's acceptance... it is what it is, and if it's not fun then I'll shelve my Paladin or leave.</p>

Tallhart
01-30-2009, 06:52 PM
<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The Guardian class is designed from the ground up to be the premier raiding MT class, and there is no plan to make Paladins their equal. The devs have said that the Paladin will be a "close second" to the Guardian, and any competent raid leader doesn't take second best as their MT. The most Paladins can realistically look forward to is being a backup tank. Not to mention that the relatively few Paladins out there in hardcore raiding guilds are there as OTs; that's the job they wanted. If they wanted to be MTs, well then they would have rolled a Guardian, wouldn't they?</p></blockquote><p>Exactly the point my friend ... if they wanted to be main tank, they would have rolled a Guardian wouldn't they? But who's choice was it to move to MT? The Paladins? Nope. That role is being forced upon them.Now I don't raid ... I'm a legendary equipped tank who runs instances with some friends and the occasional pickup group, so I really have no stake in this. But I think anyone who's being fair can see that forcing a class into a new role, then not giving them the tools to be competitive in that role is unfair at a very basic level. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Picture this: You're a Firefighter, have been for years. One day you come into work and there's a memo from the Governor of your state: "Thank you for your years of selfless public service. But due to budget cutbacks, the teacher's union will be fighting fires starting Monday morning. All current Firefighters will henceforth be Police Officers."A hue and cry rises up from all the firehouses in the sate. "Police Officers??!! But we like being Firefighters! We've been doing it for years, and we're good at it!"A response memo is issued from the Governor's office, essentially saying "Stop being whiny cry babies. Step up to your new assignment.""Ah, OK. If we have to. Where do we pick up our badges and guns?""Badges and guns? Who said anything badges and guns? Those are the tools of real, ahem, sorry, the already existing Police. You'll just have to fight crime with your existing tools. I'm sure you'll find a way.""But ... But ... our existing skills and tools are completely inappropriate for the job!!""Fine, crybabies, here's an id card and a tazer. That should be good enough.""But no major metropolitan Police Force will hire us! They already have cops, with real guns and badges, doing the job just fine!""Well, go stand outside one of the smaller local Police Stations. And try to look pathetic. Maybe they'll feel sorry for you and let you ticket jaywalkers."I can see why my raiding brethren are upset. Can't you?</p>

Kordran
01-30-2009, 07:27 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can see why my raiding brethren are upset. Can't you?</p></blockquote><p>Sure I can, completely. But what is done, is done. The update is coming out next Tuesday, and it's pretty clear how things are going to work. Paladins are going to be left in no-man's land, probably at least until the next expansion this winter. Oh, I'm sure that there will be tweaks and adjustments here and there, but after this their focus is going to switch to the new content coming in GU52, and whatever comes after.</p><p>The proverbial goose has been cooked. All that's left is to serve it up.</p><p>Edit: For anyone reading this that hasn't seen the notes from the Producer, it looks like they're delaying the release of GU51, so saying that our goose has been cooked was premature on my part. I guess we just stay tuned...</p>

oldironballs
02-01-2009, 02:57 AM
<p>Ok read the first page of this forum and was too disgusted to read the rest. He is trying to have a REASONABLE discussion with everyone so that a COMPROMISE could be reached that would take into account everyone's POV as much as was practically possible. If I was him after reading all that crap I would have no motivation whatsoever to do any favours for our class. I won't post any suggestions because I'm sure he won't get down this fair in the discussion. I stopped reading these discussion boards like 2 years ago now I remember why.</p><p>P.S I know there will have been some people that tried to be reasonable and make helpful posts, thankyou for trying to save our class from this flock of noobs.</p>

Half-Rack
02-07-2009, 05:51 PM
<p>I guess it is a little late for this suggestion, seeing as the update is coming out soon, but maybe the changes on Amends in going in a different direction then it should.</p><p>The problem that comes up a lot with Paladins are "Why would a raid leader take me on a raid? what do I offer?" Amends used to be one thing that kind of made us somewhat usefull on a raid, helping deal with hate reguardless if we were tanking or not.</p><p>Maybe Amends should not be changed just into another taunt for us, but a buff line that would make us stand out in raids? Paladins are the jack of all trade class, why not have Amends turn into a buff that does something like this (not exactly what I say, but you would get the idea):If placed on a Paladin, Guard or Monk - Increases single target taunt's by x%</p><p>If placed on a SK, Zerk, or Bruser - Increases AE taunt's by x%</p><p>If placed on Bard class - Adds a % increase to the bards buff songs</p><p>If placed on an Assassin or Ranger - Adds x% crit chance or double attack etc..</p><p>If placed on a healer - increase heal crit chance by x% or base heal ammount</p><p>Etc... Etc...</p><p>Make it a con based buff, and castable across raid groups.. and woulden't that not only help in the new vision they have of hate gain, but also give us a use in Raids? Sure you could have a raid without us, but your raid would be better in anyway you wanted with a Pally or 2 there.. Missing a healer? Not only could a pally help heal, but he/she would make the healers you have better.. missing DPS? a Pally can not only do a little DPS, but he/she could make a couple of your other DPS classes that much better. Am I going to be tanking in a group or raid etc.. put it on myself to increase my ability to hold aggro. It still works with the new vision, seeing as it is still up to the tanks to cast taunts and keep hate..I might be crazy, and it does not address all the issues Pally's have atm.. but this seems like a good idea.. maybe a little late.. but it might be something that would give the Pally a reason to feel usefull.</p><p>- Jadara of Oasis</p>

Troubor
02-07-2009, 06:28 PM
<p><cite>oldironballs wrote, I reply within what was quoted in <span style="color: #ff0000;">red</span></cite></p><blockquote><p>Ok read the first page of this forum and was too disgusted to read the rest. He is trying to have a REASONABLE discussion with everyone so that a COMPROMISE could be reached that would take into account everyone's POV as much as was practically possible.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(The thing is, he isn't all that hot to compromise, IMO.  Make some tweaks, sure.  But he expects us to more or less be sycophants and praise his "vision" instead of point out where his thinking is flawed.  Maybe they are budging now on things like the single target/AOE target tank nonsense for instance (but from what I understand they aren't) but from what I see, he expected people to praise him.  Yes, people replied strongly, maybe even flamed but that is a reaction to what they except from him.  If he really wanted to make a compromise and listen, he wouldn't have done THIS drastic of a change, and THEN asked for replies).</span> If I was him after reading all that crap I would have no motivation whatsoever to do any favours for our class.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(He's already castrating it for the most part.  So he's not doing a favor to start with.  You're amazed that people replied with anger?)</span> I won't post any suggestions because I'm sure he won't get down this fair in the discussion.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(Even if he got what he wanted, sycophants, I can guarentee he'd stop reading after 3 or 4 pages anyway.  That's typical for any SOE "discussion" thread)</span> I stopped reading these discussion boards like 2 years ago now I remember why.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(Hmm, maybe you should apply to be a developer then?  Yes I am being sarcastic, but I sure do feel like they don't read most of our comments, even when we do praise them)</span></p><p>P.S I know there will have been some people that tried to be reasonable and make helpful posts, thankyou for trying to save our class from this flock of noobs.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">(Forgive me if being passionate about the class and disliking a fair amount of the changes makes me a "noob".  I guess using your logic, if someone handed you a 10 pound bag of manure and said "HERE, ENJOY THIS!" and if you complained, you'd be a "noob" then.  Many people do see these changes as a probverbial bag of manure.)</span></p></blockquote>

Coho1
02-08-2009, 07:35 AM
<p> I just returned from 10 months off to this..</p><p>  Did they increase heals?  They kinda forgot about having them keep pace with the mobs/lvls. And since I don't tank now it gives us something useful. (plus I solo ALOT and with the coming changes I don't want to die.  LOL)</p>

Troubor
02-08-2009, 05:20 PM
<p><cite>Coho1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> I just returned from 10 months off to this..</p><p>  Did they increase heals?  They kinda forgot about having them keep pace with the mobs/lvls. And since I don't tank now it gives us something useful. (plus I solo ALOT and with the coming changes I don't want to die.  LOL)</p></blockquote><p>Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but they didn't increase the amount of each heal spell, no.  Paladin heals (I think) will have a small amount of hate generation up and beyond what a heal generates (I think it still does do 1/2 point of hate for 1 point of heal), but I'm not on Test to confirm this.  To be fair my comments are based on second hand knowledge and reports from a few people of what this fiasco, pardon me changes entail.  In some ways, I can stand the changes IF they get rid of or at least lessen the divide of the whole "Single target/AOE tank" concept.</p>

Steve11418
02-09-2009, 12:47 AM
<p>I MT for a causal raid guild. The current live Paladin (for me) provides the flexability to MT in a casual guild when your raid rooster is different each nite. Sometime I have no dirge or aggro transfer, sometimes I don’t have a templar / defiler combo.</p><p>But with my pally I can still run a succsesfull raid… I can tank in def… chain heal myself and still hold aggro with amends, sigil and holyground.</p><p>That was my niche which got us to Levithan and the first 2 named in TOMC</p><p>I belive the loss of amends, and all tanks being able to hold aggro in def without the need of transfers result in my niche disapearing.</p><p>Perhapes it time to step aside for the Guardain now that his aggro issues will be no more in def stance.</p><p>DekainSouthern Cross Guild Leader and Main Tank.</p>

Kordran
02-09-2009, 12:49 AM
<p>Aeralik changed the Paladin's heals to generate 300% more hate than they used to. So, according to conventional wisdom about the healing threat ratio, if the Paladin cast a heal for 1000 points, it used to generate 500 points of threat and now (on Test) generates 1500 points. The problem is that this is "hidden threat" that is not logged, so there's no way to know the exact amount... or even that the change is working correctly as implemented.</p>

Irgun
02-09-2009, 11:09 AM
<p>300% of zero is still zero, so: as long as there are no hard numbers I dont believe that anything has changed towards threat generation of paladins heals.</p>

Kordran
02-09-2009, 02:23 PM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>300% of zero is still zero, so: as long as there are no hard numbers I dont believe that anything has changed towards threat generation of paladins heals.</p></blockquote><p>While I doubt that it's zero, you do raise the valid point that this is all completely obscured. There have been no clear statements from the developers about changes to the threat ratio for damage or heals in the last expansion. The conventional wisdom is that for damage it's 1:1, and for heals it's 1:2. But, there are people asserting that the damage/threat ratio was changed in TSO, and all that's ever been said about healing is that the ratio is "something less" than 1:1. None of the information is logged, and it's all speculation.</p><p>If they want to make threat management more transparent, then they need to log <em>all</em> threat generation, from all sources. Right now, with the fighter changes, only partial information is made available to the players. My message to the developers here is simple: if you're going to do it, do it right and go all the way.</p>

Idako
02-10-2009, 11:42 AM
<p>I am not a pally, nor have I played around on test. But I have a friend who has done both and we have talked extensively about it. IMO ammends was/is an overpowered ability, and makes tanking easy mode really. However, in light of the changes if I was a pally I would be raising hell. Both Amends and AoE tanking defined your class and from what I been told both are coming to an end... which ruins your class.</p><p>That said you all really need a boost. I'd like to throw into the pot making the new redemption line a hate increase in AoE like a castigate (or whatever its called)This would give pallys a way to tank in AoE as before, but would keep the work load on their shoulders. It would give the class a "defining" ability and wouldn't be overpowering.  4k aoe threat every 4 secs would be SWEET. Plus it would be cool to see pallys continue to AE pull. And theres nothing wrong with having 4 AoE tanks and 2 st tanks... doesn't need to be 3 and 3 to look good on paper.</p><p>My biggest issue is as of right now on test (numbers wise) pallys work like guards with less survivability,dps; there is no reason to play one. Nothing is special about them atm, every class should have a defining atribute and ,well, the paladin will be known as the "god why doesn't he betray" class of this expansion.</p><p>All that said I am in process of loading test and will /feedback to give ya'll a hand.</p><p>-Idako 80 Mystic</p><p>PS: I don't nessasarily agree with the other changes... but will try to get some group action going on test in the near future to see whats up.</p>

Full_Metal_Mage
02-11-2009, 02:02 AM
<p><cite>Idako wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am not a pally, nor have I played around on test. But I have a friend who has done both and we have talked extensively about it. IMO ammends was/is an overpowered ability, and makes tanking easy mode really.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry, but if you've never played a Paladin you're not entitled to an opinion about Amends. Amends would have been overpowered if Paladins were otherwise as effective at tanking as the other tanks without Amends.</p><p>While I would be more than glad to give up Amends and replace it with an effective means of generating and managing my own hate, we have yet to see anything from the current EQ2 devs showing us that they understand how the mechanics of hate work, how those mechanics were designed by the original devs, or how to accomplish their stated goal of removing hate transfer dependencies.</p>

Coho1
02-13-2009, 03:51 PM
<p>From the RP standpoint a paladin should generate aoe hate just for being a paladin. It' should be a standing buff or proc once combat starts.  </p>

Chia_Pet
02-13-2009, 07:46 PM
<p><cite>Coho1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>From the RP standpoint a paladin should generate aoe hate just for being a paladin. It' should be a standing buff or proc once combat starts.  </p></blockquote><p>I whole heartedly agree with this statment. the lore of Paladins in like every game and the basis for this game especially( D&D) revolves around the sheer malice of evil toward the Pally, everything Bad wants to kill Pallys...thus Id say Change amends to a  AOE Hate Buff that generates Hate all the time, making it a dfferent yet similar buff as the other tanks damage generating buffs in thier defensive stances.</p><p>Heh best Idea I've heard in a LONG time, and makes WAY more sense then I've seen lately.</p>

LilLoco
02-17-2009, 03:00 AM
<p>Does anyone know what the deal is with the combining stance and spells? Someone in my guild told me I might be out of luck cause I just bought our defensive stance master and he said something about the higher level spell is what it goes off of so if I dont have that master then the defensive stance is going to turn into adept 3? Also what happens if you havent scribed the abilitys before they go live? any info would be greatly appreciated!</p>

Kordran
02-17-2009, 03:25 AM
<p><cite>LilLoco wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Does anyone know what the deal is with the combining stance and spells? Someone in my guild told me I might be out of luck cause I just bought our defensive stance master and he said something about the higher level spell is what it goes off of so if I dont have that master then the defensive stance is going to turn into adept 3? Also what happens if you havent scribed the abilitys before they go live? any info would be greatly appreciated!</p></blockquote><p>When spells are merged, the highest version of the merged spell is the result. If one is M1 and the other is AD3, the result will be an M1 spell, regardless of which one it is (the spell being merged or being merged into). In other words, your stance will remain M1 after the merge, the AD3 will just disappear.</p>

Prestissimo
02-18-2009, 06:44 AM
<p><cite>Chia_Pet wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Coho1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>From the RP standpoint a paladin should generate aoe hate just for being a paladin. It' should be a standing buff or proc once combat starts.  </p></blockquote><p>I whole heartedly agree with this statment. the lore of Paladins in like every game and the basis for this game especially( D&D) revolves around the sheer malice of evil toward the Pally, everything Bad wants to kill Pallys...thus Id say Change amends to a  AOE Hate Buff that generates Hate all the time, making it a dfferent yet similar buff as the other tanks damage generating buffs in thier defensive stances.</p><p>Heh best Idea I've heard in a LONG time, and makes WAY more sense then I've seen lately.</p></blockquote><p>That is a great idea.  It would also serve to reinforce the statement "Everyone hates the paladin" with the inclusion of the mobs via this ability.</p>