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Paragone
12-09-2008, 01:40 PM
<p>So we know why the Gods originally left Norrath but do we know why they are returning? The Gods we know are very far from perfect and often have acted as overpowered versions of thier subjects.</p><p>Thier departure was very self oriented. Could it be possible they haved returned hoping to recieve aid / benefit from it somehow?</p>

Cusashorn
12-09-2008, 03:06 PM
<p>It has been stated that Norrath NEEDS the Gods in order to maintain balance across the world. I think The rending probably could have been avoided if the gods were powerful enough to stay and look over Norrath in the last 500 years.</p>

Sylaz
12-09-2008, 05:35 PM
<p>Yes, the gods fell silent in order to teach the mortal races of Norrath a lesson: You're nothing without us.</p><p>I don't think they intended for things to get as out of hand as they did, but once we all learned the lesson and were begging for their help, I suppose they felt it time to make a return.</p>

troodon
12-09-2008, 06:09 PM
<p>I would imagine that they also saw the Void coming and decided it was best to protect their investments on Norrath.</p>

Meirril
12-09-2008, 07:59 PM
<p>Actually, I belive the gods withdrew their influence from Norrath to protect themselves from being attacked directly by mortals. They needed to take drastic actions that actually diminished their influence to do so. Apparently the attacks were reaching such a high crisis level that loosing some of their power base was deemed worth it by the entire pathanon.</p><p>There is a very good likelyhood that either the rending or the shattering was caused by the gods directly. There is also a very good possibility the other could of been prevented if the gods had not withdrawn.</p><p>From the story of the Necromancer Epic it seems the gods suffered quite a bit in severing their connection to Norrath. Enough to take some fairly drastic actions with dire concequences for their demi-planes and associated demi-gods.</p>

Cusashorn
12-09-2008, 08:06 PM
<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually, I belive the gods withdrew their influence from Norrath to protect themselves from being attacked directly by mortals. They needed to take drastic actions that actually diminished their influence to do so. Apparently the attacks were reaching such a high crisis level that loosing some of their power base was deemed worth it by the entire pathanon.</p><p>There is a very good likelyhood that either the rending or the shattering was caused by the gods directly. There is also a very good possibility the other could of been prevented if the gods had not withdrawn.</p><p>From the story of the Necromancer Epic it seems the gods suffered quite a bit in severing their connection to Norrath. Enough to take some fairly drastic actions with dire concequences for their demi-planes and associated demi-gods.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, we know why they left us. The topic poster wants to know why they returned. They have thier strength back and they have to protect Norrath from extra-dimensional forces. Go look at EQlive. The Withdrawal of the Gods due to the events of PoP (they were just ****ed off at the mortals, but didn't need to protect themselves from us) led to the Legion of Mata Muram being able to enter our realm. It's the gods duty to make sure stuff like that can't and doesn't happen.</p><p>Fortunately, that series of events didn't happen here in EQ2, so we don't have to worry about dealing with that crappy Gates of Discord expansion.</p>

krrr
12-09-2008, 08:41 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite></cite></p><p>Yes, we know why they left us. The topic poster wants to know why they returned.</p></blockquote><p>Isn't it obvious? Gods are nothing without mortal worshipers.</p>

Illine
12-10-2008, 06:39 AM
<p>I don't know if the gods are like that :</p><p>they get their power from their believers and so the more worshippers they get, the more powerfull they are. If no more worshippers, they die.</p><p>so their return is also a bit selfish. they need us in order to stay alive and staying away for too long might make norrathian wonder if gods trully existed.</p><p>And if mortals start to wonder if god exists, they will stop worshipping them and them gods will loose their power. and the whole universe might collapse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. they came back to show us they are still here are that we need them ^^.</p><p>still I'm wondering, Anashti came back from her banishing, what will the gods do?</p>

Meirril
12-10-2008, 07:10 AM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually, I belive the gods withdrew their influence from Norrath to protect themselves from being attacked directly by mortals. They needed to take drastic actions that actually diminished their influence to do so. Apparently the attacks were reaching such a high crisis level that loosing some of their power base was deemed worth it by the entire pathanon.</p><p>There is a very good likelyhood that either the rending or the shattering was caused by the gods directly. There is also a very good possibility the other could of been prevented if the gods had not withdrawn.</p><p>From the story of the Necromancer Epic it seems the gods suffered quite a bit in severing their connection to Norrath. Enough to take some fairly drastic actions with dire concequences for their demi-planes and associated demi-gods.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, we know why they left us. The topic poster wants to know why they returned. They have thier strength back and they have to protect Norrath from extra-dimensional forces. Go look at EQlive. The Withdrawal of the Gods due to the events of PoP (they were just ****ed off at the mortals, but didn't need to protect themselves from us) led to the Legion of Mata Muram being able to enter our realm. It's the gods duty to make sure stuff like that can't and doesn't happen.</p><p>Fortunately, that series of events didn't happen here in EQ2, so we don't have to worry about dealing with that crappy Gates of Discord expansion.</p></blockquote><p>Actually, I wouldn't be so certain about having their full strenght back. I think a good portion of their strength comes from the departed souls of their worshipers. I'll point to the destruction of the demi-planes to preserve energy as an example of what it cost the gods to withdraw their influence and sever ties with Norrath.</p><p>One thing the gods could be very afraid of is new dieties rising to replace them and denying them the worshipers they need to continue as the powers of Norrath as they once were. Anashashti could of seen their long absence as an opportunity for her to renew her own worship and restablish herself as not only the Prime Healer, but also as the only diety on Norrath. Venril, Queen Thex, and Lucan all tried to set themselves up as dieties. Who knows, maybe it could work?</p><p>Well, Mayong and Zebrox would know. But they arn't too forthcomming with the information.</p>

Cusashorn
12-10-2008, 09:30 AM
<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't know if the gods are like that :</p><p>they get their power from their believers and so the more worshippers they get, the more powerfull they are. If no more worshippers, they die.</p><p>so their return is also a bit selfish. they need us in order to stay alive and staying away for too long might make norrathian wonder if gods trully existed.</p><p>And if mortals start to wonder if god exists, they will stop worshipping them and them gods will loose their power. and the whole universe might collapse <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />. they came back to show us they are still here are that we need them ^^.</p><p>still I'm wondering, Anashti came back from her banishing, what will the gods do?</p></blockquote><p>There's nothing stated anywhere in the universe that the gods HAVE to have worshippers to exist. Since The Nameless is a god itself (or rather just the creator of the universe), then it's a paradox to state that he can exist if he was created and sustained by the existance of life within it's own universe.</p>

Zabjade
12-10-2008, 01:04 PM
<p><span style="color: #00cc00;">I don't think that the godlings would cease to exist but without worshipers they would loose influence and power, possibly become displaced as some other entity comes in and tries to take their place. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">Look at Lucan and Chrissi in Neriak as well as Venni, all were trying to become gods to one extent or another.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;">If you think about it, these might be the very reasons Zeb and Mistmore decided to stay knocked down or step down from godhood...</span></p>

Garlin1
12-10-2008, 01:05 PM
<p>Actually, it does state that about them being worshipped.  EQ2 was set up during the PoP expansion and the whole imprisoment of Zeb.  Here is a portion taken right from the script after releasing him.</p><p>Zebuxoruk says, 'I am surprised at the gods for taking such drastic measures, though I suppose all of the creations of the Nameless are capable of displaying poor judgment and irrational behavior. These gods are burdened with powers and responsibilities beyond our comprehension, yet at times even they do not understand the eventual effect of their actions. I am compelled to share the knowledge of the gods with the populace of Norrath, so that I might save their creations. They do not realize that if mortality ceases to exist... if they are not worshipped and held aloft by the beliefs of those that they now have grown to fear... they will fall from power and a new age of darkness will wash over existence as they know it. I did not seek to interfere with them or their realms, only to free them from a fate that awaits all of us. It is this fate that now stands ready, greedily gathered on the edge of the void, ready to test the will of all mortals.'</p><p>I personally think they returned because that was happening.  They had been gone so long that people were forgetting about the gods.  They were losing their powers and thus thought they had to regain their followers.</p>

Wilin
12-10-2008, 01:22 PM
<p><cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Zebuxoruk says, '...It is this fate that now stands ready, greedily gathered on the edge of the <strong>void</strong>, ready to test the will of all mortals.'</p></blockquote><p>The bolded word is not a coincidence. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p>

Cusashorn
12-10-2008, 03:08 PM
<p><cite>Wilin wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Zebuxoruk says, '...It is this fate that now stands ready, greedily gathered on the edge of the <strong>void</strong>, ready to test the will of all mortals.'</p></blockquote><p>The bolded word is not a coincidence. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>What?</p><p>I admit that prophecy easily seems to be talking about TSO, but the gods returned 2 years ago. What does this have to do with them?</p><p>As for Garlin: Even Zeb's words there says nothing about them needing worshippers to EXIST.</p>

troodon
12-10-2008, 04:23 PM
<p><cite>Meirril wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>There is a very good likelyhood that either the rending or the shattering was caused by the gods directly.</p></blockquote><p>I wouldn't agree with this statement.  I think that the evidence suggests that the Rending was absolutely not caused deliberately by the gods, and we have no idea what caused the Shattering.</p>

KniteShayd
12-10-2008, 07:04 PM
<p><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I don't know if the gods are like that :</p><p>they get their power from their believers and so the more worshippers they get, the more powerfull they are. If no more worshippers, they die.</p><p>so their return is also a bit selfish. they need us in order to stay alive and staying away for too long might make norrathian wonder if gods trully existed.</p><p>And if mortals start to wonder if god exists, they will stop worshipping them and them gods will loose their power. and the whole universe might collapse <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />. they came back to show us they are still here are that we need them ^^.</p><p>still I'm wondering, Anashti came back from her banishing, what will the gods do?</p></blockquote><p>There's nothing stated anywhere in the universe that the gods HAVE to have worshippers to exist. Since The Nameless is a god itself (or rather just the creator of the universe), then it's a paradox to state that he can exist if he was created and sustained by the existance of life within it's own universe.</p></blockquote><p>Exactly.  And what if people stopped worshipping, then years later, people started again.  Would that god be ressurected if it died?  Did it truely die, or just lose power until it started getting followers again?</p><p>Hmmm...  Starting to get philosophical.</p>

Garlin1
12-11-2008, 12:55 AM
<p>I personally think they cease to be.  Not die or anything like that.  As in the lore of EQ1 we fought "projections" of them in their planes.  They hid in the Plane of Time because they became weak.  They formed Quarm with their powers to try and keep us out.  Though, who is to say after Druzzil Ro split the time line.  It has been said (I forget where) that EQ1 split into  a different path where things did not happen in the EQ2 timeline. </p><p>I think the story arc in the EQ1 expansion that just came out sorta explains that.  It said that when Druzzil restored time to before you destroyed quarm and rescued zeb she was unable to just UNDO it.  She split time into two paths.  One where you contiuned on with having learned that knowledge (which I believe to be the EQ2 timeline) and one where you never did confront the gods in PoTime.  This is what caused the God of Despair to abuse the Plane of Time to destroy norrath. </p><p>Sure this is all speculation on my part.  Why do I think this?  Well, its known zeb was free.  There are books in the game that talk about him.  Even a book that talks about the split in the time lines.  Why do I think that the gods are directly linked by their worshippers?  Besides the fact Zeb said it, I want to say the "Shards of Fear and Hate" are directly part of their conscience being awoke more and their old planes of existance trying to reshape itself.</p>

Meirril
12-11-2008, 07:38 PM
<p>I'm actually thinking it isn't technically possible for any true diety to die permanently in EQ. What I mean by true diety, is one that wasn't raised by another diety to administer some aspect of that diety's power/concerns/nature.</p><p>Demi gods are (mostly) Norrathians that have been granted powers by their dieties and responsability for overseeing an aspect of that diety.</p><p>The primary gods "arose". Either they were born from another diety or they just came into being. That comming into being could be spontanius or the cumulation of some event. The oldest dieties represent physical manifistations of elemetnal forces. Well, ok the Nameless is older. The Nameless is the exception, not the rule for gods. Very little is known about the Nameless, and that seems to be very intentional. After that you have the "emotion" gods. Strangely, Tunare is counted amongst these though her actual porfollio is more of a "life and growth" goddess and she should be counted as somewhere between the elemental gods and the "emotion" gods. Maybe Tunare, Brell, and Prexius, and Luclin should be counted a little differently because they are not associated with emotions, but rather a non-elemental force that occures in nature?</p><p>I'm counting Luclin in the above group because she is as much the diety of her moon and mystery as well as madness. Also there are other pure emotion dieties that lay an equal claim to the various forms of madness, while her claim on the moon is unique amongst the gods. Ok, Veeshan has a claim on all of Norrath, but its hardly as strong a claim as Luclin had on her moon. Luclin has actuall dominion over her moon and guarded it prior to the release of SoL. Veeshan did a fly by whacking of the plannet, and left some of her children there to fend for themselves. Some would call her an unfit mother for that...</p><p>Our favorite topic for TSO, Anashti should be counted amongst the same group as Tunare and Brell. Origionally, she arose as the prime healer. It would be interesting to hear her origin story. Was she placed in the position, or did she arise in it? In either case, the pathenon decided her actions were unforgivable and arranged to remove her from Norrath. With her removal, a vaccume was created in the power structure. I think if Rodcent was not available to take her place (though a long time after her removal?) that Anashti may have been able to recover her status as Prime Healer and return long before she has been able to now. Instead, she needed to accumulate power through alternative means which the shadow men were a tool to accomplish her goals.</p><p>Anashti and Zeb are our two primary examples of dieties that do not have worshipers. Anashti was usurped by Rodcent, Zeb was never known and so didn't have anyone to worship him. He also has no known powers or responsabilities and so shouldn't have accidental worshipers (like the emotive dieties who just need people to strongly feel their associated emotion to gain "worship"). Neither was "killed" even though the rest of the dieties did everything they could to cut them off from reality. Why wern't they exectued? The dieties of Norrath don't exactly play nice. Evidence would point that they can not slay a true god. While their power can be greatly diminished, they probably can not perish.</p>

Garlin1
12-11-2008, 11:13 PM
<p>Actually, Zeb had a bunch of followers.  There is a whole story (gotta find that book in my my house that has it dang it!!) about him being the "ungod" or something and a whole city of worshipers.  At one point it was thought the instance off mystic lake was such city.</p>

KniteShayd
12-14-2008, 05:42 AM
<p>Pretty sure I seen some where Zeb has followers too.</p><p>I would count Luclin among the Higher Gods as well.  She is the goddes of shadows and secrets. Not a demi-god.  She observes and stays under the radar.  She isn't really a god of action, like Rallos or Rodcet.  The only well known action she ever commited, was the saving of soon to be extinct races.  I see her kind of as a preserver of knowledge when she does that. After all, knowledge lost to time can become a secret to everyone.  Especially if know one finds out about it that lost knowledge.</p>

Cusashorn
12-14-2008, 06:39 AM
<p><cite>Garlin1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually, Zeb had a bunch of followers.  There is a whole story (gotta find that book in my my house that has it dang it!!) about him being the "ungod" or something and a whole city of worshipers.  At one point it was thought the instance off mystic lake was such city.</p></blockquote><p>He's called the Ungod because he is a mortal turned god turned mortal lather rinse repeat numerous times across history. Even he no longer know how many times he's transformed back and forth. The city in Mystic Lake is the city of Tanaan. It's residents contributed thier entire existance to learning. They sought out all things about knowledge. Zebuxoruk holds no actual title of power in the Pantheon, but if you gave him one, he'd probably be the God of Knowledge and Study.</p><p>The city of New Tanaan was created in the Plane of Knowledge as a tribute to Zeb as well.</p>