Interesting New Official Lore from EQ1 [Archive]

Wilin

10-16-2008, 03:47 PM

As part of the run up to the new EQ1 expansion, Seeds of Destruction, they have been releasing some lore features. The second in the series, "Seeds of Destruction, Unfolding the Lore Part 2" talks about the early days of Oceangreen and the surrounding area. I found some things to seem contrary to what we've seen in EQ2. I know that the timelines diverged at the end of PoT, but this is lore about events of the same past that is shared between the games so I found it appropriate for us.Here is the article:<a href="http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/news_article.vm?id=51130" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/n...cle.vm?id=51130</a>First, it starts immediately by inferring that Qeynos and Freeport were the result of the Combine Empire falling with the humans migrating afterwards to form villages that became Qeynos/Freeport and it mentions that Oceangreen became Qeynos.From my understanding, we have been observing the birth of humans in the Ethernaut stories. Barbarians migrated out of Everfrost and formed villages and one of those villages is Oceangreen. So, there cannot be a human empire(Combine Empire) providing displaced humans for Oceangreen if the humans are just being born/segregated from their barbarian ancestors.Second, there is mention of a plague brought to Oceangreen by Bert and his followers. Antonius Bayle was born during the plague period and grew into a great leader during that time. He lead some hunters and warriors out to fight the plague and later founded Qeynos.Does that mesh with what we already knew about the Great Unifier?

Zutan

10-16-2008, 04:08 PM

"To the west, the city of Qeynos grew from the foundations of Oceangreen village, under the noble rule of Antonius Bayle, the Great Unifier. "This doesnt, to me, contradict what we already know about the founding of Qeynos. It only adds to the story.From another site:Barbarians are the direct ancestors of humans, and thus more distant ancestors of Erudites.And this:"The Combine Empire, as this lost race of Humans is called, spread throughout the known world, but then died even more quickly than it grew, and for reasons still unknown. And while they are the ancestors of every Human on Norrath and their relics and ruins still litter the lands from Odus to Faydwer, little history of the period remains." These dont seem to contradict eachother either. It is entirely possble that the early humans formed the Combine empire well before the Antonius Bayle/Qeynos era. I dont find anything saying Barbarians founded the towns/cities in Oceangreen area just that Humans did.. perhaps the ancestors of the Combine.

valkry

10-16-2008, 04:17 PM

Maybe....So Oceangreen is founded by Barbs/proto-Humans? My question is could Oceangreen be part of the Combine Empire, and continue to exist after the Empire falls. (IE London wasn't a PERMANENT village before becoming a part of the Roman Empire. Empire falls, but Londinium is Anglized and becomes London.) With a power vacuum in Human politics, Oceangreen renamed Qeynos becomes more significant.Also Is Eathernaut "Bayle" "Antonius" or is he is he his fore-father? Many cultures take the father's given name for the child's surname. Antonius might just be one of the many children/grandchildren of Bayle's line. In that case it is quite possible that little 'Tony' might have lived through a plague (well after grnadpops was dead) and afterwards helped rebuild grampy's stomping grounds of Oceangreen into the might metropolis of Qeynos.

Wilin

10-16-2008, 04:21 PM

<cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>"To the west, the city of Qeynos grew from the foundations of Oceangreen village, under the noble rule of Antonius Bayle, the Great Unifier. "This doesnt, to me, contradict what we already know about the founding of Qeynos. It only adds to the story.From another site:Barbarians are the direct ancestors of humans, and thus more distant ancestors of Erudites.And this:"The Combine Empire, as this lost race of Humans is called, spread throughout the known world, but then died even more quickly than it grew, and for reasons still unknown. And while they are the ancestors of every Human on Norrath and their relics and ruins still litter the lands from Odus to Faydwer, little history of the period remains." These dont seem to contradict eachother either. It is entirely possble that the early humans formed the Combine empire well before the Antonius Bayle/Qeynos era. I dont find anything saying Barbarians founded the towns/cities in Oceangreen area just that Humans did.. perhaps the ancestors of the Combine.</blockquote>So how can Barbarians be the direct ancestors of humans and yet the Combine Empire is the ancestor of every human on Norrath?The only way that would be possible is if the barbarians became the humans that became the combine empire. That's technically possible.But, back to the lore story, it starts by saying that Oceangreen was formed as a result of the fall of the Combine Empire. And yet we've been told in EQ2 lore that Oceangreen was formed by barbarians who migrated out of the mountains.

valkry

10-16-2008, 04:39 PM

ProtoHumans (ie Barbs who imigrated out of Halas to get away from constant warfare) created Combine Empire. Humans come for Combine & Bards because they are the same group. Events are happening concurrently, not one after another as in your example.Oceangreen/Qeynos probably is not just one city (Qeynos) built on the remains of another village (Oceangreen), but multiple versions of each. The city Biblical archeolgists think is Jericho is about 13 cities deep. Barb village created. It's a good site, so they keep rebuilding Oceangreen version 2.0 etc on top. Sometime after the Empire falls & newest version of QG is build, the Bayle kid comes along, rebuilds it even bigger & better then ever & decides to name it Qeynos (instead of OG 16.299). Post EQ1 moon falls out of the sky, wars happen, Halas falls, Humans re-re-re-rebuild Qeynos again. The orignial village is still formed by barbs/proto-humans.

Zutan

10-16-2008, 05:01 PM

Barbarians -> Combine Humans -> Current HumansThe 'direct ancestor' statement doesnt say 'except combine'... they are ALL humans so the statement is true.Also, I dont think Oceangreen is a village/town.. I think its a region where several villages formed.

Rezikai

10-16-2008, 05:13 PM

<cite>valkry wrote:</cite><blockquote>ProtoHumans (ie Barbs who imigrated out of Halas to get away from constant warfare) created Combine Empire. Humans come for Combine & Bards because they are the same group. Events are happening concurrently, not one after another as in your example.Oceangreen/Qeynos probably is not just one city (Qeynos) built on the remains of another village (Oceangreen), but multiple versions of each. The city Biblical archeolgists think is Jericho is about 13 cities deep. Barb village created. It's a good site, so they keep rebuilding Oceangreen version 2.0 etc on top. Sometime after the Empire falls & newest version of QG is build, the Bayle kid comes along, rebuilds it even bigger & better then ever & decides to name it Qeynos (instead of OG 16.299). Post EQ1 moon falls out of the sky, wars happen, Halas falls, Humans re-re-re-rebuild Qeynos again. The orignial village is still formed by barbs/proto-humans.</blockquote>I agree, Oceangreen was a tiny village in the Ethernaught tale, i think the "build up" to call it a city after the Combine empire rose and fell isnt too far of a stretch, even most of rome burned if you remember at one point in history. Another thing that caught my eye while reading it was the talk Antonius Bayle leading his men into the Karanas to fight off the plague, which was spoken about to a small extent while questing in EQoA. EQoA started during the 2nd year of Antonius Bayle thw 2nds reign and continued from there. What i find more interesting is the way they are implementing this into EQ1.. are these time portals that adventurers are entering to go back in Norraths history and play out events? (ala the tunare/Innoruuk diety quest events pre-EoF?) if so i'd love to see such things come here to EQ2.

Sharakari

10-16-2008, 05:25 PM

You people amaze me. I never played EQ1 and I got into EQ2 around the KoS expansion. Your knowledge of Lore is just amazing. I don't understand a darn thing being posted in the History and Lore forums yet I still read them. Is there some kind of book on this stuff or did you just learn it from the game?

Rezikai

10-16-2008, 05:29 PM

<cite>Sharakari@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>You people amaze me. I never played EQ1 and I got into EQ2 around the KoS expansion. Your knowledge of Lore is just amazing. I don't understand a darn thing being posted in the History and Lore forums yet I still read them. Is there some kind of book on this stuff or did you just learn it from the game?</blockquote>if only..... if only.... I'd have 2 copies.. one for home use and one travel edition.

Wilin

10-16-2008, 05:30 PM

Ok, we're backtracking too much on other threads here. It was already stated by missdoomcookie that there is a timeline discrepancy between EQ1 and EQ2 concerning the Combine Empire.In case you missed it, here it is:"I can't comment on what is going on with EQ1's conflicting reports about the Combine Empire, but to verify things on our end, on our official timeline, as far as I have always seen, the Age of Blood does come before the Lost Age, but the Combine Empire occurred during the Lost Age. The Ethernaut storyline takes place at the very, very beginning of the Lost Age. So shortly into it, in fact, that all of the characters would have been born in the Age of Blood. " -missdoomcookieSo, now that we've reviewed what's already been verified, I'll go back to my original point.If the Lost Age began after the Ethernauts were born, and the Combine Empire occurred during the Lost Age and the fall of the Combine Empire lead to the humans forming villages on the Karanas. And the youngest member of the Ethernauts is probably Bayle in his 20s. So, then the Combine Empire appeared and disappeared within about 15 years?Is that correct or is this another case of the lores not meshing?

Wilin

10-16-2008, 05:32 PM

<cite>Sharakari@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>You people amaze me. I never played EQ1 and I got into EQ2 around the KoS expansion. Your knowledge of Lore is just amazing. I don't understand a darn thing being posted in the History and Lore forums yet I still read them. Is there some kind of book on this stuff or did you just learn it from the game?</blockquote>Learned from the game and from the boards. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But I did play EQ1 from launch until EQ2 launched.

Apocroph

10-16-2008, 05:33 PM

<cite>Sharakari@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>You people amaze me. I never played EQ1 and I got into EQ2 around the KoS expansion. Your knowledge of Lore is just amazing. I don't understand a darn thing being posted in the History and Lore forums yet I still read them. Is there some kind of book on this stuff or did you just learn it from the game?</blockquote><a href="http://www.lorelibrary.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.lorelibrary.com</a>That'll get you started.

Zutan

10-16-2008, 05:52 PM

The 'human race' was created about 2555 years before the rise of the Combine Empire. (The Mar Twins did something to a small number of barbarians to create humans)Combine Empire was around for approximately 200 years. Antonius Bayle I was borm about 105 years after the fall of the Combine empire.He was about 25 years old when Qeynos was founded.How this fits in with the ethernaughts? I'm not entirely sure.. but thats the timeline we have had for quite a while now.

Wilin

10-16-2008, 06:29 PM

<cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>The 'human race' was created about 2555 years before the rise of the Combine Empire. (The Mar Twins did something to a small number of barbarians to create humans)Combine Empire was around for approximately 200 years. Antonius Bayle I was borm about 105 years after the fall of the Combine empire.He was about 25 years old when Qeynos was founded.How this fits in with the ethernaughts? I'm not entirely sure.. but thats the timeline we have had for quite a while now.</blockquote>Yep, that sounds right. And that's what I'm saying. You don't know how it fits and I'm saying that it absolutely does not fit with what's in that new EQ1 lore article unless the Combine Empire lasted for about 15 years.

Apocroph

10-16-2008, 06:34 PM

I'm inclined to think that EQlive's lore is in conflict here. Not much of an empire if it only lasted 15 years.

Zutan

10-16-2008, 06:40 PM

There is a conflict someplace.. the Combine empire began and fell in the Age of Blood not the Lost Age. So whatever reference to it being in the Lost Age is where the conflict is. If you put that where it should be, the timeline seems ok.

Arianah

10-16-2008, 07:09 PM

I'm not sure how true this is - but I remember reading that EQ1 doesn't currently have any dedicated lore devs, they all kind of work on it together now... that could be playing a part in this. /shrug

Cusashorn

10-16-2008, 07:21 PM

<cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a conflict someplace.. the Combine empire began and fell in the Age of Blood not the Lost Age. So whatever reference to it being in the Lost Age is where the conflict is. If you put that where it should be, the timeline seems ok.</blockquote>Actually, it did take place in the Lost Age. This is what has been written in the History of Norrath since the very start of the game.To quote myself from another recent thread...<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paraphrasing the important parts of the story, just for clarification:<hr />"...Slowly the forest gave way to desert, and eventually even great Takish-Hiz crumbled and the elves were forced to flee Antonica, leaving much of thier greatness behind. Thus began the Lost Age. This next period of the Norrathean history as it relates to many of the races is the least known. It is surmised by the more knowledgable historians that while the elder races regrouped and reestablished themselves, a small group of Barbarians were suddenly transformed both physically and intellectually. Most believe this to be the last major and direct act of divine intervention, and perhaps the reason so little is known about this period is that the gods wish it to be so, deciding afterwards that they would have less to do with thier creations. In any case, this small and enlightened group were the fathers of the Human race, and they rapidly gained a foothold throughout the lands, studying the lost art of geomancy. The Combine Empire, as this lost race of Humans is called, spread throughout the known world, but then died even more quickly than it grew, and for reasons still unknown..." <hr />Of course, we do know what the cause of it's fall is, but that's not important right here.</blockquote>As for there not being any dedicated lore devs on the EQlive team anymore... Well this new development in thier lore is part of the reason why I'm glad that Vhalen wrote most of the lore in EQ up until EQ2 came out, and then continued it into this game right up through The Shadow Odyssey next month. Even though we know that he didn't write all of it, and that the other developers have contributed thier own ideas and such, he did head everything for the most part. What we know he told us about EQlive still stands despite anything that changes in the game at this point in time.

RaphaNissi

10-16-2008, 07:21 PM

Zutan

10-16-2008, 08:15 PM

See, this is where the conflict is...Here is an excerpt from Eqplayers website..The Age of BloodAs the dust settled, the last of the gods came to Norrath. Mithaniel Marr, god of Valor, and Erollisi Marr,her twin sister, the goddess of Love, created the Barbarians, a hardy race who settled the cold and rugged northlands, near the ruins of the Giant empire.Being the youngest race, they were generally unwashed and rugged, possessing very few social graces. And while they too had a warlike culture, there were those amongst them who began to believe in something more.By this time the other civilizations of Norrath had either long since declined, or were well on their way, and this small minority of Barbarians saw an opportunity to triumph where the others had failed.Perhaps this was a seed of wisdom planted by the Marr Twins, or perhaps it was only by chance, but as the Barbarians spread out across the lands, warring with both each other and any other race encountered, this tiny movement continued to grow. And so even amidst desolation and war, there was hope.This small and enlightened group of Barbarians were the fathers of the Human race, and they rapidly gained a foothold throughout the lands, studying the lost art of geomancy.The Combine Empire, as this lost race of Humans is called, spread throughout the known world, but then died even more quickly than it grew, and for reasons still unknown. And while they are the ancestors of every Human on Norrath and their relics and ruins still litter the lands from Odus to Faydwer, little history of this period remains.

Zutan

10-16-2008, 08:19 PM

I should also note: that when 'we' found out about the Combine Empire back in EQ1 I was also under the impression they came before Lost Age.

Cusashorn

10-16-2008, 08:39 PM

<cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, this is where the conflict is...Here is an excerpt from Eqplayers website..The Age of BloodAs the dust settled, the last of the gods came to Norrath. Mithaniel Marr, god of Valor, and Erollisi Marr,her twin sister, the goddess of Love, created the Barbarians, a hardy race who settled the cold and rugged northlands, near the ruins of the Giant empire. Being the youngest race, they were generally unwashed and rugged, possessing very few social graces. And while they too had a warlike culture, there were those amongst them who began to believe in something more.By this time the other civilizations of Norrath had either long since declined, or were well on their way, and this small minority of Barbarians saw an opportunity to triumph where the others had failed.Perhaps this was a seed of wisdom planted by the Marr Twins, or perhaps it was only by chance, but as the Barbarians spread out across the lands, warring with both each other and any other race encountered, this tiny movement continued to grow. And so even amidst desolation and war, there was hope.This small and enlightened group of Barbarians were the fathers of the Human race, and they rapidly gained a foothold throughout the lands, studying the lost art of geomancy.The Combine Empire, as this lost race of Humans is called, spread throughout the known world, but then died even more quickly than it grew, and for reasons still unknown. And while they are the ancestors of every Human on Norrath and their relics and ruins still litter the lands from Odus to Faydwer, little history of this period remains.</blockquote>That whole story was retconned only very recently in EQlive within the last few months. The true lore is stated in The History of Norrath. Remember, Vhalen wrote most of EQlive's lore. He left the dev team for that game when EQ2 started, and with him gone, the EQlive lore has diverted heavily since then.

Jindrack

10-16-2008, 08:55 PM

<cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, this is where the conflict is...Here is an excerpt from Eqplayers website..The Age of BloodAs the dust settled, the last of the gods came to Norrath. Mithaniel Marr, god of Valor, and Erollisi Marr,her twin sister, the goddess of Love, created the Barbarians, a hardy race who settled the cold and rugged northlands, near the ruins of the Giant empire.Being the youngest race, they were generally unwashed and rugged, possessing very few social graces. And while they too had a warlike culture, there were those amongst them who began to believe in something more.By this time the other civilizations of Norrath had either long since declined, or were well on their way, and this small minority of Barbarians saw an opportunity to triumph where the others had failed.Perhaps this was a seed of wisdom planted by the Marr Twins, or perhaps it was only by chance, but as the Barbarians spread out across the lands, warring with both each other and any other race encountered, this tiny movement continued to grow. And so even amidst desolation and war, there was hope.This small and enlightened group of Barbarians were the fathers of the Human race, and they rapidly gained a foothold throughout the lands, studying the lost art of geomancy.The Combine Empire, as this lost race of Humans is called, spread throughout the known world, but then died even more quickly than it grew, and for reasons still unknown. And while they are the ancestors of every Human on Norrath and their relics and ruins still litter the lands from Odus to Faydwer, little history of this period remains.</blockquote>I'm really not in aggreement with that last couple of lines. The Combine Empire came about later in the Lost Age when the Humans were clearly established in their villages and cities, descended from the Barbarians. Putting the Combine Empire in the Age of Blood really doesn't work and goes against most everything written. The rise and fall of the Combine Empire is one of the major events that defines and names the Lost Age.

Zutan

10-16-2008, 09:07 PM

If thats the case they definitely need to sync up. If both teams are changing 'history' on their own its gonna make a mess.

Rezikai

10-16-2008, 09:08 PM

<cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, this is where the conflict is...Here is an excerpt from Eqplayers website..The Age of BloodAs the dust settled, the last of the gods came to Norrath. Mithaniel Marr, god of Valor, and Erollisi Marr,her twin sister, the goddess of Love, created the Barbarians, a hardy race who settled the cold and rugged northlands, near the ruins of the Giant empire.Being the youngest race, they were generally unwashed and rugged, possessing very few social graces. And while they too had a warlike culture, there were those amongst them who began to believe in something more.By this time the other civilizations of Norrath had either long since declined, or were well on their way, and this small minority of Barbarians saw an opportunity to triumph where the others had failed.Perhaps this was a seed of wisdom planted by the Marr Twins, or perhaps it was only by chance, but as the Barbarians spread out across the lands, warring with both each other and any other race encountered, this tiny movement continued to grow. And so even amidst desolation and war, there was hope.This small and enlightened group of Barbarians were the fathers of the Human race, and they rapidly gained a foothold throughout the lands, studying the lost art of geomancy.The Combine Empire, as this lost race of Humans is called, spread throughout the known world, but then died even more quickly than it grew, and for reasons still unknown. And while they are the ancestors of every Human on Norrath and their relics and ruins still litter the lands from Odus to Faydwer, little history of this period remains.</blockquote>I'm really not in aggreement with that last couple of lines. The Combine Empire came about later in the Lost Age when the Humans were clearly established in their villages and cities, descended from the Barbarians. Putting the Combine Empire in the Age of Blood really doesn't work and goes against most everything written. The rise and fall of the Combine Empire is one of the major events that defines and names the Lost Age.</blockquote>Hmmm I'm thinking more is that the Age of Blood text above is 1/2 correct and 1/2 a continuation, to somewhat correlate to what missdoomcookie said that the Ethernaughts were born at the enmd of the Age of Blood but lived during the begining of the Lost Age.So the Combined empires people may have been born during the Age of Blood but the actual forming of the Empire in the Lost Age.

Zutan

10-16-2008, 09:45 PM

The 24 barbarians where 'turned' humans in Age of Blood but nothing I found says exactly how long that age lasted... However there is a known timeline of 'years' listed someplace gathered from stories and in game info and dev info. It doesnt mark which age starts when, but it does show the # of years between.The statement that Qeynos was formed close enough to the beginning of Lost Age for the people (Humans) to have been born in Age of Blood seems like it HAS to be wrong. Other parts of this could fit together ok if not for that.

RaphaNissi

10-16-2008, 10:08 PM

<cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>The 24 barbarians where 'turned' humans in Age of Blood but nothing I found says exactly how long that age lasted... However there is a known timeline of 'years' listed someplace gathered from stories and in game info and dev info. It doesnt mark which age starts when, but it does show the # of years between.The statement that Qeynos was formed close enough to the beginning of Lost Age for the people (Humans) to have been born in Age of Blood seems like it HAS to be wrong. Other parts of this could fit together ok if not for that.</blockquote>I think most all would agree that Qeynos itself was formed much later than the Lost Age. Oceangreen and surrounding villages were formed in the beginning and those enlightened barbarians who became the humans were most likely born in the Age of Blood. But Qeynos itself came a while after the Lost Age and the Combine Empire.Official EQ2 info on OceangreenVhalenAs for Qeynos of yore, here is a bit taken from one of my tomes: ... A band of humans made its way through the gnoll infested hills and founded a small fishing village alongside the northern Coldwind Coast shoreline. The shores of the new coastal village were teeming with fish and the land could be easily defended from attack. If most of the resources were put towards the defense, this large village could provide for the scattered human settlements of the plains. This new village must be more than a mere village, it must be a stronghold. The village settlers would send word to the clans of the plains. Most of the human chieftains of the plains voted to migrate to the coast and begin work on reinforcing the construction efforts there. The new sprawling stronghold city was named Oceangreen, after the beauty that nestled it. The defense of Oceangreen and the remaining settlements of the plains demanded the training of a human army. There was no loss of volunteers and the new clan militias of Oceangreen swelled. Each of the nine warrior clans of the militia specialized in their own art of war; each thinking their way was superior to all others. Weekly duels occurred with the winner retaining the ceremonial Qeynos Claymore, an ancient sword returned to the human settlements by an adventuring spirit named Vallius Bayle. These duels eventually grew into large bloody battles. Jealousy erupted and the warrior clans began to war with one another. Villagers were forced to choose sides or be beaten. Walls between the clans soon were erected. The new city of Oceangreen was beginning to look as barbaric as the Northland clans that the humans left so long ago. ...and also VhalenThere are multiple myths about when and how these two great cities were founded. Most of the confusion is centered around the small communites that existed before the founding of these cities. These communties were located on the same location we find these cities now. So... so many stories, many false. Instead of debunking these tales, (maybe later), I will tell you some basics. Freeport and Qeynos were both founded during the Age of Enlightenment. They were human strongholds and trade cities made to defy the harsh wilds of the age. They did rise from smaller communities that struggled to exist. Behind both cities creation we can find elements of valor that defended the cities populace of the time.

Cusashorn

10-16-2008, 10:15 PM

Mary the Prophetess

10-17-2008, 12:15 AM

Isn't Vahlar the EQ Live lore developer? According to her the Combine fell 130 years prior to the founding of Qeynos, and 100 years before the birth of Antonius Bayle I.

Foolsfolly

10-17-2008, 01:01 AM

The Combine Empire was formed by many different races coming together and combining their unique talents to make an empire capable of far greater feats than any other empire at that time. Sound familiar?Maybe Bayle and his friends founded the Combine Empire, starting with their ragtag team of races from across norrath. Their friendship and leadership held the Combine Empire together, but like all mortals they eventually aged and died. Without the Ethernauts to hold them together, the various races found they could no longer tolerate eachother.While most of the citizens of the empire returned to their race's respective hometowns, some members of the more benevolent races found they could still tolerate eachother and decided to settle down in the home of CE's greatest leader and hero; Oceangreen. With it's surging population, the little village quickly grew into a town, and then a city, and eventually a castle which was named Qeynos. Likewise some of the more nefarious races congregated within freeport, which also grew with it's newfound might and became a mighty city in it's own right.As for the barbarians becoming humans, I don't recall anything suggesting that the process could not have occured gradually over the course of these events. The humans may not have come to be as we know them until well after Qeynos was built. As I read it, the changes within the Ethernaught lore was more of a change of philosophy and lifestyle choice, not yet reflected in their physical appearance.

RaphaNissi

10-17-2008, 01:17 AM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Combine Empire was formed by many different races coming together and combining their unique talents to make an empire capable of far greater feats than any other empire at that time. Sound familiar?Maybe Bayle and his friends founded the Combine Empire, starting with their ragtag team of races from across norrath. Their friendship and leadership held the Combine Empire together, but like all mortals they eventually aged and died. Without the Ethernauts to hold them together, the various races found they could no longer tolerate eachother.While most of the citizens of the empire returned to their race's respective hometowns, some members of the more benevolent races found they could still tolerate eachother and decided to settle down in the home of CE's greatest leader and hero; Oceangreen. With it's surging population, the little village quickly grew into a town, and then a city, and eventually a castle which was named Qeynos. Likewise some of the more nefarious races congregated within freeport, which also grew with it's newfound might and became a mighty city in it's own right.As for the barbarians becoming humans, I don't recall anything suggesting that the process could not have occured gradually over the course of these events. The humans may not have come to be as we know them until well after Qeynos was built. As I read it, the changes within the Ethernaught lore was more of a change of philosophy and lifestyle choice, not yet reflected in their physical appearance. </blockquote>Except that the Combine began to crumble with the killing of their leader, Katta which happened to be on Luclin (someone correct me if I have that fact wrong). As for the barbarians becoming humans, it is something the clans from Halas began calling themselves right away. Bayle is considered a human and not barbarian. From A Storm of Sorrow Part II -Finally, he was called in. On piles of furs, a group of men sat and appraised him. They had all once been chieftains of their respective clans, but here they worked together to establish a new kind of community. All had left behind their clan names and adopted new monikers. Bayle himself had once been known as Bayle Shiverfist, but he had left behind his surname in the mountains. Though the plainsmen might have made for a different life in Karana, even going so far as to call themselves by a new name, human...

Foolsfolly

10-17-2008, 01:39 AM

Human could easily have been a title they used to describe their chosen way of life at that time, and only later came to refer to a unique race.As for the killing of Katta, that's also easily explained. After Bayle died Katta became his successor. However he simply did not have the same influence that Bayle had, and the different races quickly started fighting. The violence continued escalating until Katta was forced to take militant action in an attempt to quell the fighting, but he was struck down on the battlefield and that was the final straw. With Katta down, the individuals who still believed in working together returned to norrath and formed their new intermixed societies. Meanwhile the forces, mainly human, who wanted to keep fighting over their existing empire remained on Luclin and split into their two new empires.

Wilin

10-17-2008, 01:48 AM

<cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm really not in aggreement with that last couple of lines. The Combine Empire came about later in the Lost Age when the Humans were clearly established in their villages and cities, descended from the Barbarians. Putting the Combine Empire in the Age of Blood really doesn't work and goes against most everything written. The rise and fall of the Combine Empire is one of the major events that defines and names the Lost Age.</blockquote>Right, that's exactly why I brought this up. And thank you for clarifying our official stance. This was talked about in another thread not too long ago and missdoomcookie provided the clarification which I quoted earlier. I thought *maybe* this would get sorted out behind the scenes but then this new official lore is released for the next EQ1 expansion and it's still going with the idea that the combine empire preceeded the early human villages at oceangreen and it's in direct conflict with what we've been told in EQ2.

troodon

10-17-2008, 04:08 AM

<cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, this is where the conflict is...Here is an excerpt from Eqplayers website..**snip**</blockquote>This was posted in another thread a while ago, it also claims that Solusek Ro raised the Serpent's Spine during the Lost Age. It's wrong, it contradicts not only EQ2 lore but also old EQ1 lore. EQ1 devs haven't got any idea what's going on.

Meirril

10-17-2008, 04:43 AM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>Human could easily have been a title they used to describe their chosen way of life at that time, and only later came to refer to a unique race.As for the killing of Katta, that's also easily explained. After Bayle died Katta became his successor. However he simply did not have the same influence that Bayle had, and the different races quickly started fighting. The violence continued escalating until Katta was forced to take militant action in an attempt to quell the fighting, but he was struck down on the battlefield and that was the final straw. With Katta down, the individuals who still believed in working together returned to norrath and formed their new intermixed societies. Meanwhile the forces, mainly human, who wanted to keep fighting over their existing empire remained on Luclin and split into their two new empires.</blockquote>How much do you know about combine history? I'm not exactly an expert, but I do know that Katta was struck down by an assassation plot conveived by Seru. Also that Emperor Katta was struck down on Norrath. The royal family flead to Luclin because it was believed to be the only part of the empire that Seru didn't have agents he could use against them. Seru followed them to Luclin to finish the revolt he planned. After they made it to the moon, Luclin (the goddess) made the spires cease functioning. Thus the combine lost all of its most valued leadership and this probably lead to its rapid decline as the remaining forces loyal to both sides continued to fight amongst themselves.Also, one would have to ask the question, if Bayle was responsable for the formation of the Combine Empire...why isn't the royal lineage named Bayle? Katta is the last name of the family, not the first.There is also more combine lore created after EQ2 split away from EQ1, but it isn't valid here. I don't think we need to know about an entire combine city underwater where Emperor Katta remains in a near-death state maintained by magic and some of his most loyal servants since it probably doesn't exist in EQ2!

Cusashorn

10-17-2008, 08:33 AM

<cite>RaphaNissi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Combine Empire was formed by many different races coming together and combining their unique talents to make an empire capable of far greater feats than any other empire at that time. Sound familiar?Maybe Bayle and his friends founded the Combine Empire, starting with their ragtag team of races from across norrath. Their friendship and leadership held the Combine Empire together, but like all mortals they eventually aged and died. Without the Ethernauts to hold them together, the various races found they could no longer tolerate eachother.While most of the citizens of the empire returned to their race's respective hometowns, some members of the more benevolent races found they could still tolerate eachother and decided to settle down in the home of CE's greatest leader and hero; Oceangreen. With it's surging population, the little village quickly grew into a town, and then a city, and eventually a castle which was named Qeynos. Likewise some of the more nefarious races congregated within freeport, which also grew with it's newfound might and became a mighty city in it's own right.As for the barbarians becoming humans, I don't recall anything suggesting that the process could not have occured gradually over the course of these events. The humans may not have come to be as we know them until well after Qeynos was built. As I read it, the changes within the Ethernaught lore was more of a change of philosophy and lifestyle choice, not yet reflected in their physical appearance. </blockquote>Except that the Combine began to crumble with the killing of their leader, Katta which happened to be on Luclin (someone correct me if I have that fact wrong). As for the barbarians becoming humans, it is something the clans from Halas began calling themselves right away. Bayle is considered a human and not barbarian. From A Storm of Sorrow Part II -Finally, he was called in. On piles of furs, a group of men sat and appraised him. They had all once been chieftains of their respective clans, but here they worked together to establish a new kind of community. All had left behind their clan names and adopted new monikers. Bayle himself had once been known as Bayle Shiverfist, but he had left behind his surname in the mountains. Though the plainsmen might have made for a different life in Karana, even going so far as to call themselves by a new name, human...</blockquote>Actually, they traveled to Luclin BECAUSE of Tsaph Katta's assassination.<cite>Mary the Prophetess wrote:</cite><blockquote>Isn't Vahlar the EQ Live lore developer? According to her the Combine fell 130 years prior to the founding of Qeynos, and 100 years before the birth of Antonius Bayle I.</blockquote>Yes. She's the developer who took over something like a year after Vhalen left for EQ2. Remember, Vhalen set the standard. So she was the first to deviate from what he had set.

Saroc_Luclin

10-17-2008, 11:03 AM

Vahlar left a few years ago (and is greatly missed <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). More recently Zatozia and Elidroth have been trying to straighten things out, but they're mainly working off the expansion lore and haven't really worked out all the links. Some of the inconsistancies can, and probably should be dismissed as mutations in the oral record; ie the events described changed throuhg the telling until they got to our point. Others are harder to work around, and should probably just be ignored. In EQ itself though, we've got 2 major monkey wrenches in play too though. First, we have actual travel to past periods, not just in the upcoming SoD expansion (which takes us back to the founding period of Qeynos, Bloody Kithicor, The Second Zek War on Earth, the invasion of Kuua, and the Iksar-Dragon war), but we've also been back to the fall of Takish-hiz as well. So right off the bat, we the players are intentionally/unintentionally affecting the past. Second, we have the forces of Discord in play as well (the entire story behind SoD), doing their best to change events in Norrath's past (Stop the founding of Qeynos, corrupt the gnolls of that era, change how Bloody Kithicor turned out, help the Zek forces thoroughly defeat the Plane of Earth, help the Iksar defeat the dragons and put the Iksar in Discord's control/debt, destroy Dranik so thoroughly its resistance won't be around to help us beat Mata Muram, etc....). Stopping the Discordlings from influencing the past will mostly restore EQLive's past, but there will continue to be ripples I'm sure. Recently, we had a free preview of three of the Ocean Green Hills zones (Hills, Village, and the Bertox temple). So we saw some of the original founders of the city, we saw the fort (destroyed in EQLive's time) where Antonyus Bayle and his forces are trying to protect the people in that region, and other areas as well. (The start of the construction of the guard towers; in the Village the first(?) Clockwork Clock was already there, Blackburrow was there as well, but inaccessable, both due to the preview and because you need to quest to unlock it). Surefall Glade was there, but uninhabited and filled with angry treants and bushants. Finally, on a slightly different note, about the fall of the Combine empire: Tsaph was attacked on Norrath by Seru's forces and spirited away by loyalists to try and cure him, but they were unable to. Originally, it was thought the Loyalists had inspiration (from Grieg) to run to Luclin with Tsaph's comatose body to escape Seru and try to find a cure in peace; so Grieg used the giant spires in Dreadlands to take a large fraction of the Combine Loyalists faction to Luclin only to discover they were trapped there. (The combine had never previously been to Luclin). Seru and his forces eventually figured out how to follow them, and were similarly trapped. Later in EQLive's storyline, we discover that the bulk of the Loyalists were acting as a distraction; Tsaph didn't go to Luclin, but instead was secretly spirited away to a Combine city off of Odus in the Buried Sea, where he was put in suspension and the Combine loyalists there worked to cure him (experimenting on among other things, a colony of Sphynx, a colony of Kedge and a colony of Shissar, all of which the Combine had discovered and kept secret from general knowledge while offering sancutary to those colonys). Prexus grew angry at the experiments done on the Kedge, so he sunk Katta Castrum to the bottom of the sea, only the quick thinking of the Combine managed to dome the city and some of its suburbs to save them from destruction. We also discover that the secret Shissar colony was also the source of the Combine's teleporter knowledge; the Shissar shared it in exchange for sanctuary and protection from the Greenmist (and from the Iksar and just to get them away from Kunark in general). It was probably partly where Grieg got the idea/knowledge for getting to Luclin in the first place. Remember: The Combine did NOT actually create the spires around the continents; they simply repurposed them from what was preexisting and used them and claimed credit. The Shissar and the intelligent Ogres were both major teleporters; exploring the planes and such, long before the Combine came around and are more likely to have made, or at least discovered the purpose of the spires before the Combine. Okay, one final thing: There are some live events going on in EQLive at the moment in advance of SoD's launch. First we had time rifts opening up in old world zones, letting time lost beings pop out in the current EQLive era. We had dragons from Field of Scale (now Field of Bone), ancient gnolls in Qeynos Hills, divisions of Lanys's army from Kithicor showing up in Commonlands, and the intelligent ogres showing up in Rathe Mountains and wondering why their slave races were running around free. That event ended a week or so ago. Currently, we have the forces of Discord doing an all out invasion of the Plane of Time, trying to take control of it so they can create their rifts into the past. Bertox, Cazic Thule, Saryn, Terris, and the Three Zek's are all out in PoTime (the non-instanced version), with their army generals, trying to fight off wave after wave of Discord forces, and even with our help they are not doing well. (Druzzil Ro is there too, and she's having trouble maintaining her form through the fight). If you have an EQLive account and want to see those gods and NOT have them smite you down immediately, now's your chance. They're too busy fighting Muramites to smite you, and PoTimeA is in such flux that its level restrictions have been removed. (Guild Hall ports and a scrykin in the Plane of Knowledge can both get you to PoTime. Another scrykin in PoTime can flux you up to the top of the central pillar in PoTimeA (With the 4 Grandfather Clocks around it) to see Bertox, Saryn and Druzil, as well as the Time Machine at the heart of the zone.). For some reason, the TSS Rune turnin guy (A Drakkin) is also in there but I haven't figured out why he's there, and he doesn't seem to know either. If you explore PoTime further, you can see the Stargate arches where the Riftseekers have made portals into PoTime and are sending their forces through to attack the Gods. (No muramites see invis that I saw so if you're invis you should be safe, though Cazic AE's his spells indiscriminantly)

Arianah

10-17-2008, 11:56 AM

<cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, this is where the conflict is...Here is an excerpt from Eqplayers website..**snip**</blockquote>This was posted in another thread a while ago, it also claims that Solusek Ro raised the Serpent's Spine during the Lost Age. It's wrong, it contradicts not only EQ2 lore but also old EQ1 lore. EQ1 devs haven't got any idea what's going on.</blockquote>As Saroc said, Vahlar used to be the lore dev but she's been gone for a while now.As for Solusek Ro not raising the Serpent's Spine, do you have lore stating otherwise? Because as far as I know, he's the one that destroyed Tunare's great forest and home of the elves, shriveling it up to a desert, killing many Takish`Hiz, as well as causing the Serpent's Spine to raise which leads to the storyline of Veeshan's Scale being stolen by the opportunistic Lethar when it was thrown out of the protective barrier due to this act.I've read nothing similar to say otherwise in EQ2's storyline, so how does that contradict anything? I have read almost everything except all the in-game books and dialogues.I'm not saying you're wrong, I just have not read or heard of any contradiction to this story, and up until recently was playing EQ1 mostly.Personally, I've found EQ1 lore seriously lacking for a while now, and it seems like since the timeline split, they (EQ1) haven't cared about keeping the stories straight (among other things). Note also, the lack of it being in an actual story format and not being a good read, and the many typo's alone that you can find in that 'lore'. (If anyone else has kept up with the EQ1 lore since they started playing EQ2...)I'm sooo sooo happy we have dedicated lore devs on this game <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Foolsfolly

10-17-2008, 04:39 PM

Minor details...Bayle was not the leader of the combine empire, he was one member of a group who founded it and led it as a tribunal. After their deaths Katta declared himself the new individual ruler and started giving his humans unfair advantages within the empire. This led to the dissention and fighting which kept him distracted and thus vulnerable to the assassination attempt by other human factions who wanted to rule. After the assassination attempt, the human factions of the empire fled and chased eachother to Luclin. The other races remaining on Norrath were faced with greatly diminished military strength, since the human armies made up the bulk of the empire's military. Fearing for their safety, and with no leadership to hold them together, they gradually migrated to the two most influential human cities of the time.As for why Bayle's offspring, and the offspring of the other Ethernauts, did not simply take over in their parents places. They were too young, and the empire did not have any sort off official hereditary monarchy set up, so the position was basically up for grabs.Granted all of this is speculation...but I'm just attempting to explain a few of the apparent inconsistencies.

Saroc_Luclin

10-17-2008, 05:14 PM

<cite>Rezikai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I'm really not in aggreement with that last couple of lines. The Combine Empire came about later in the Lost Age when the Humans were clearly established in their villages and cities, descended from the Barbarians. Putting the Combine Empire in the Age of Blood really doesn't work and goes against most everything written. The rise and fall of the Combine Empire is one of the major events that defines and names the Lost Age.</blockquote>Hmmm I'm thinking more is that the Age of Blood text above is 1/2 correct and 1/2 a continuation, to somewhat correlate to what missdoomcookie said that the Ethernaughts were born at the enmd of the Age of Blood but lived during the begining of the Lost Age.So the Combined empires people may have been born during the Age of Blood but the actual forming of the Empire in the Lost Age.</blockquote>I'm thinking the same thing; it looks like what is written is sort've having the Combine Empire maybe spanning the transition period or something. Given we don't have exact dates, the line between the Age of Blood and the Lost Ages is probably very blurred with Norrathan Lorists and Archaeologists debating where the line is drawn and what events belong in which Ages.What the poster I clipped out didn't include was a section on the Lost Ages that also mentions the Combine:The Lost AgeThe last of the old races to decline was the empire of the Elves.The Elddar Forest, the Elven realm of old, spread across the entire southeastern quarter of Tunaria. Tree communities and marble cities were built in the forest's clearings and meadows, their white towers and spires climbing out of the forest, higher than the tallest tree.Legends say this prosperity drew the jealousy of Solusek Ro, Lord of Flame. He arched the spine of the serpent mountains, bringing heat from the burning sun to the ancient forest.The rivers ran dry, it rained less each year, and while the great elven druids fought long and hard, using their powerful magics to combat the change, they could only delay the inevitable.Slowly the forest gave way to desert, and eventually even the fair Elven city Takish-Hiz crumbled and the elves were forced to flee Tunaria, leaving much of their greatness behind.After the fall of the Combine Empire, the remnants of mankind dwelled mostly in the center of Tunaria, inhabiting primarily the vast and fertile plains of Karana. Villages appeared and prospered, several reaching the size of towns, and two even became cities.To the west a strong and noble band of Humans, lead by Antonius Bayle the First, founded Qeynos under the lofty principles of law.When combined with the Age of Blood text, you could view the Combine Empire period as being on the cusp between the two periods, how much in each period being debateable.

Mary the Prophetess

10-17-2008, 08:33 PM

This is utterly depressing news. The EQ Live developers cavalier attitudes and callous disregard for the fragility of maintaining a coherrant and believable world is endangering the entire lore history of Norrath.Time travel, (in any form), is a dangerous plot mechanism. Because of the potential paradoxes that will occur if great care is not taken, it can destroy the whole believability of Norrath, and turn what defines this world from others, into just another video game. It should never have been used in the first instance to separate the two games (IMHO), and the irresposible way they seem to be throwing it around now, just boggles my mind.Suppose in their short-sighted vision they decide that the forces of Discord prevail in changing the past, so that players are never able to access the Planes of Power at all. What does this do to the whole premis of the Time Split?We have the EQ1/EQ2 going along nicely together, then the Plane of Time split, with divergent EQ1/EQ2 time lines, then the time travel in EQ1 post-Time Split to a time pre-Time Split, to change or prevent it from happening? How then do we find an explanation for where we are presently in EQ2?!!I wonder just how knowledgable about the lore of Norrath their developers really are. Or how they view the stewardship of that lore.Well, here's another fine mess they've gotten us into!

troodon

10-17-2008, 09:20 PM

<cite>Kairah@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, this is where the conflict is...Here is an excerpt from Eqplayers website..**snip**</blockquote>This was posted in another thread a while ago, it also claims that Solusek Ro raised the Serpent's Spine during the Lost Age. It's wrong, it contradicts not only EQ2 lore but also old EQ1 lore. EQ1 devs haven't got any idea what's going on.</blockquote>As Saroc said, Vahlar used to be the lore dev but she's been gone for a while now.As for Solusek Ro not raising the Serpent's Spine, do you have lore stating otherwise? Because as far as I know, he's the one that destroyed Tunare's great forest and home of the elves, shriveling it up to a desert, killing many Takish`Hiz, as well as causing the Serpent's Spine to raise which leads to the storyline of Veeshan's Scale being stolen by the opportunistic Lethar when it was thrown out of the protective barrier due to this act.I've read nothing similar to say otherwise in EQ2's storyline, so how does that contradict anything? I have read almost everything except all the in-game books and dialogues.I'm not saying you're wrong, I just have not read or heard of any contradiction to this story, and up until recently was playing EQ1 mostly.</blockquote>The problem is the timing, not the story. Sol Ro created the Serpent's Spine during the Age of Blood, not the Lost Age - just like the Combine Empire did exist, but it existed during the Lost Age, not the Age of Blood. The EQ1 devs switched the ages around, <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=40&topic_id=428911?" target="_blank">missdoomcookie</a> agrees but doesn't want to say it explicitly.

Arianah

10-17-2008, 10:37 PM

<cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The problem is the timing, not the story. Sol Ro created the Serpent's Spine during the Age of Blood, not the Lost Age - just like the Combine Empire did exist, but it existed during the Lost Age, not the Age of Blood. The EQ1 devs switched the ages around, <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=40&topic_id=428911?" target="_blank">missdoomcookie</a> agrees but doesn't want to say it explicitly.</blockquote>Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~~~Because of the time split, and how the two games became different, couldn't we just disregard anything that they choose to do with EQ1's lore now? What happens there doesn't really affect what happens here now does it?

Cusashorn

10-17-2008, 10:49 PM

<cite>Kairah@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>troodon wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The problem is the timing, not the story. Sol Ro created the Serpent's Spine during the Age of Blood, not the Lost Age - just like the Combine Empire did exist, but it existed during the Lost Age, not the Age of Blood. The EQ1 devs switched the ages around, <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=40&topic_id=428911?" target="_blank">missdoomcookie</a> agrees but doesn't want to say it explicitly.</blockquote>Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up for me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~~~Because of the time split, and how the two games became different, couldn't we just disregard anything that they choose to do with EQ1's lore now? What happens there doesn't really affect what happens here now does it?</blockquote>For the largest part, no, EQlive's current lore from all expansions from Dragons of Norrath to the current time do not have any impact on EQ2. It's still far too early to tell if Gates of Discord and Omens of War happened or are acknowledge in EQ2, because the time split takes place from the moment when the Plane of Time was first defeated, which was a few months after Legacy of Ykesha came out (canonically confirming the Marr-touched Frogloks that we have as a player race in both games.) Most players hope that they don't. If Taelosia does exist, I personally hope it will be designed nothing like how it was in GoD, with no actual relationship to that expansion in any visual or lore way.However, the Words of Zebuxoruk hints that the two timestreams may or may not have interwoven with each other numerous times during the split. It has been confirmed that Mayong Mistmoore became a god for some time in EQ2's time period (the Freethinker questline, BUT IT DOES NOT directly give any details to *HOW* he became a god, or how he lost it.In Depths of Darkhollow, The players themselves turn him into a god by completing his ritual by killing his physical body. A few expansions later, the players would later force away his godhood by defeating him as such, returning him back to a vampire.In EQ2, we find out that Mayong somehow became a god, spent most of the last 500 years in the Plane of Hate, and then willingly chose to return to being an undead vampire.Of course, this particular instance is about the only and largest suggestion of the timelines crossing.And for the record, the developers have stated that the Drakkin race that was introduced in the Serpentspine Mountains expansion pack do NOT exist in EQ2, as the Drakkin was a race created as a result of a series of events that only happened in an expansion that came out after EQ2 and the time split.

RaphaNissi

10-17-2008, 10:58 PM

ke'la

10-18-2008, 05:28 AM

<cite>Rezikai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zutan wrote:</cite><blockquote>See, this is where the conflict is...Here is an excerpt from Eqplayers website..The Age of BloodAs the dust settled, the last of the gods came to Norrath. Mithaniel Marr, god of Valor, and Erollisi Marr,her twin sister, the goddess of Love, created the Barbarians, a hardy race who settled the cold and rugged northlands, near the ruins of the Giant empire.Being the youngest race, they were generally unwashed and rugged, possessing very few social graces. And while they too had a warlike culture, there were those amongst them who began to believe in something more.By this time the other civilizations of Norrath had either long since declined, or were well on their way, and this small minority of Barbarians saw an opportunity to triumph where the others had failed.Perhaps this was a seed of wisdom planted by the Marr Twins, or perhaps it was only by chance, but as the Barbarians spread out across the lands, warring with both each other and any other race encountered, this tiny movement continued to grow. And so even amidst desolation and war, there was hope.This small and enlightened group of Barbarians were the fathers of the Human race, and they rapidly gained a foothold throughout the lands, studying the lost art of geomancy.The Combine Empire, as this lost race of Humans is called, spread throughout the known world, but then died even more quickly than it grew, and for reasons still unknown. And while they are the ancestors of every Human on Norrath and their relics and ruins still litter the lands from Odus to Faydwer, little history of this period remains.</blockquote>I'm really not in aggreement with that last couple of lines. The Combine Empire came about later in the Lost Age when the Humans were clearly established in their villages and cities, descended from the Barbarians. Putting the Combine Empire in the Age of Blood really doesn't work and goes against most everything written. The rise and fall of the Combine Empire is one of the major events that defines and names the Lost Age.</blockquote>Hmmm I'm thinking more is that the Age of Blood text above is 1/2 correct and 1/2 a continuation, to somewhat correlate to what missdoomcookie said that the Ethernaughts were born at the enmd of the Age of Blood but lived during the begining of the Lost Age.So the Combined empires people may have been born during the Age of Blood but the actual forming of the Empire in the Lost Age.</blockquote>If that is true then it would lend credance to the Combine Empire rose do to the Void theory, as if it did it would explane the "fuzziness" of the time table around that period.Also I do beleive that Alexander the Great's Empire lasted only as long as he did... and that would corralate into the "Look back" text and the end of the last chapter of Planes of Karnia.... Who's to say that the "Combine Empire" is not Norath's version of Camolot? Something made far bigger and grander then it accually was do to the haziness of time... Most scholors agree that they may accually have been a "King Auther" that protected a small village just after Rome pulled out of England... this could be kinda the same thing.