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Valphine
10-07-2008, 05:41 AM
Gameplay and the choice of loot. Some players realy need to take a second thought about Need items, had a not so very nice "steal" in chelsith a few days back. For manny month back Ive been farming Chelsith for Armguards of the Elite Yha-lei Shock Troops & Prime Clasp of Sustenance. Atlast Prime Clasp of Sustenance droped! Cant find a better legendary necklace for a paladin then that. Had a 79 Chanter in the group the did a need & of course won it. My point is, some players realy should think before the act. Btw the stats on that necklace +15str + 42 sta +25wis + 25int 125health 125 power 1,079 divine 581 posion 4 defense 4 aggression +2 heal crit +2 spell crit +2 melee crit

Noaani
10-07-2008, 05:49 AM
Thats actually one of the best non raid dropped necks for a melee spec'd enchanter, and I can think of 2 or 3 other non raid dropped necks that are better for a paladin.

Valphine
10-07-2008, 05:51 AM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats actually one of the best non raid dropped necks for a melee spec'd enchanter, and I can think of 2 or 3 other non raid dropped necks that are better for a paladin.</blockquote>Becouse of the + 2 melee crit? give me a brake. And the +4 defense & 4 aggression? Every singel stat in the necklace I have use of as a paladin. Ok which ones then? so I know.

LygerT
10-07-2008, 06:07 AM
while i'd say it obviously benefits a pally the best, it still doesn't mean other classes can't use. you just got beat by the RNG on a /ran 2 roll is all.

scruffylookin
10-07-2008, 06:22 AM
Honestly, I thought that if you can equip it, and if it's better than the equipment you currently have equipped, then choosing "need" is perfectly appropriate. I don't expect anyone to evaluation whether it would be better for me or them. If they plan on using it, choose "need." If they plan on selling it, use "greed."

Valphine
10-07-2008, 06:31 AM
<cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I thought that if you can equip it, and if it's better than the equipment you currently have equipped, then choosing "need" is perfectly appropriate. I don't expect anyone to evaluation whether it would be better for me or them. If they plan on using it, choose "need." If they plan on selling it, use "greed." </blockquote>Aye but some items should be reconsider. Like shoulders in maidens can be used by a cleric... poor that tank if he need them...

Valphine
10-07-2008, 06:39 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>while i'd say it obviously benefits a pally the best, it still doesn't mean other classes can't use. you just got beat by the RNG on a /ran 2 roll is all. </blockquote>Thats not my point, might been an upgrade for him now but I bet he will replace that neck shortly, theres alot other caster items thats better. My point is some should give items another thought before do a need.

Thunderthyze
10-07-2008, 06:43 AM
I have to say that a chanter that can use the INT may well be attracted to the resists. As has been said above, just because YOU think it is a pally item other classes can use too and are perfectly entitled to roll. The only way around your issue is to come up front at the beginning of the group and say that if that item drops you want it. In return you agree not to roll on anything else. You may get agreement to that, you may not. Otherwise its you against the RNG.

Thunderthyze
10-07-2008, 06:44 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I thought that if you can equip it, and if it's better than the equipment you currently have equipped, then choosing "need" is perfectly appropriate. I don't expect anyone to evaluation whether it would be better for me or them. If they plan on using it, choose "need." If they plan on selling it, use "greed." </blockquote>Aye but some items should be reconsider. Like shoulders in maidens can be used by a cleric... poor that tank if he need them...</blockquote>Really and truly that mindset only works in guild groups (ie a for the greater good)...in pick ups you can only trust in the RNG.

M0rticia
10-07-2008, 06:49 AM
If there was something you had been looking for in that zone, you should have mentioned to the group, 'Hey everyone, if XYZ item drops, I would really like to have it. It's a huge upgrade for me. Is everyone okay with that?". Granted, some people might NOT be okay with that but at least you would have found out who needed it and who didn't before the group even got started. I tend to agree with everyone else though. Just because YOU think it's a pally item, doesn't mean other classes wouldn't benefit from it. If it was strictly meant for pallies, they would have made it pally only, right? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I tend to really look at an item when it drops to make SURE it's an upgrade for me before I hit 'need'. It's actually pretty rare for me to 'need' on an item because I look at all stats before hitting that button. If it's not a glaringly obvious upgrade for me, I'll 'greed' it instead and let the luck of the dice decide for me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Valphine
10-07-2008, 07:02 AM
Yes I guess I must blame my self to be not clear about im after in that zone. And of course I dont hand out this guy, mention names and so on.. its still just a item. Will take your coments and reconsider my self in the feature about be clear of certain things, as I contines farming chelsith for those items <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Thunderthyze
10-07-2008, 07:10 AM
Good luck mate...I'm sure you'll get it next time <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Noaani
10-07-2008, 07:11 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats actually one of the best non raid dropped necks for a melee spec'd enchanter, and I can think of 2 or 3 other non raid dropped necks that are better for a paladin.</blockquote>Becouse of the + 2 melee crit? give me a brake. And the +4 defense & 4 aggression? Every singel stat in the necklace I have use of as a paladin.Ok which ones then? so I know.</blockquote><p>If you are tanking, and need the defensive bonuses, then this is the necklace you want... aITEM -1433729429 870494300<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />anak Essence Vial Necklace/a</p><p>If you are not tanking, or your healers are able to keep you up without issue, this is the necklace you want... aITEM 717281040 -596555433:Ganak's Torque/a</p><p>The notion of getting an item that is have offensive and half defensive and calling it good enough is one of the ways in which bad players come about.</p>

Valphine
10-07-2008, 08:11 AM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats actually one of the best non raid dropped necks for a melee spec'd enchanter, and I can think of 2 or 3 other non raid dropped necks that are better for a paladin.</blockquote>Becouse of the + 2 melee crit? give me a brake. And the +4 defense & 4 aggression? Every singel stat in the necklace I have use of as a paladin.Ok which ones then? so I know.</blockquote><p>If you are tanking, and need the defensive bonuses, then this is the necklace you want... aITEM -1433729429 870494300<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />anak Essence Vial Necklace/a</p><p>If you are not tanking, or your healers are able to keep you up without issue, this is the necklace you want... aITEM 717281040 -596555433:Ganak's Torque/a</p><p>The notion of getting an item that is have offensive and half defensive and calling it good enough is one of the ways in which bad players come about.</p></blockquote>Of course im tanking.. I am a Tank. Yes I am aware of those items, still think <span class="postbody">Prime Clasp of Sustenance is better, I like the offensive & defensive ststs in it, good for aggro job with offensive stats. </span>Ganak's Torque is good, but its fabled and I didnt comepare with that.

Valphine
10-07-2008, 08:14 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Good luck mate...I'm sure you'll get it next time <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Hehe thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Dreadpatch
10-07-2008, 08:30 AM
Yuck, melee spec'd enchanter FTL... I feel bad for any chanter with those aa lines, they should do some reading. That is a pally item all the way, it's not at all hard to get a necklace with +2 spell crit.

Noaani
10-07-2008, 08:55 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ganak's Torque is good, but its fabled and I didnt comepare with that.</blockquote>So what if its fabled, its still a fairly common drop from an easy heroic zone.

Valphine
10-07-2008, 09:08 AM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ganak's Torque is good, but its fabled and I didnt comepare with that.</blockquote>So what if its fabled, its still a fairly common drop from an easy heroic zone.</blockquote>Well the topic was Legendary items so I guess I had to stick with that hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Aye Agree its a good one, also common drop.. tho no defensive stats on it thats why I like Prime neckpiece <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Enough of that.. I just think it was a unnecisery Need of that chanter.. thats all. Have a nice day.

Finora
10-07-2008, 09:52 AM
<p>That item might have been a really good upgrade for the person in question. It happens. Maybe that person hadn't been in that level range for long & didn't have great gear. Could very well be an item that person had been looking for as well. Unless you see the item needed up on the broker later in the day, then you just have to assume the person at least thought they needed that item.</p><p>Getting peeved about this is like a scout getting peeved at a mystic rolling on the melee chain chest/legs from Chelsith. The mystic can use them just like the scout and get very good benefit from them. Guild groups or groups with just in game friends are going to be the only places where I'd ever think I'd see someone not rolling on an item that would be a good upgrade for them just so someone else can get it (particularly if the person never mentioned that they were looking for the item at the beginning of the group).</p>

DragonMaster2385
10-07-2008, 10:06 AM
While I see how the item is certainly better for a pally than an illy, it's very possible that it was an upgrade for him/her. Like another said, the 'greater good' mentality doesn't work with PUGs, so don't expect people to give up an upgrade for you if it is an upgrade for them as well.

Lethe5683
10-07-2008, 10:07 AM
This happend to me twice in maidens, when the fabled gi dropped.  The first time it got stolen by some swashy and the second time a druid needed on it.  At this point I have to set leader only looting on the last two nameds in maidens to keep people from ninja looting or declining something because they think someone else can use it when no one else needs it. 

DragonMaster2385
10-07-2008, 10:17 AM
what!? A swash needing on a gi? That's just insane and I would have instantly shouted that in level chat and put the person on my ignore list.

Lethe5683
10-07-2008, 10:21 AM
They wanted it because of the +4 melee crit I guess.  <a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/1116516438" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/1116516438</a>

Errolflynn
10-07-2008, 10:27 AM
The GI is in the top five rated pieces for Swashys, Brigs and Assasins.While I would never take it over a Brawler, I would certainly take it.

Yimway
10-07-2008, 11:15 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gameplay and the choice of loot. Some players realy need to take a second thought about Need items, had a not so very nice "steal" in chelsith a few days back. For manny month back Ive been farming Chelsith for Armguards of the Elite Yha-lei Shock Troops & Prime Clasp of Sustenance. Atlast Prime Clasp of Sustenance droped! Cant find a better legendary necklace for a paladin then that. Had a 79 Chanter in the group the did a need & of course won it. My point is, some players realy should think before the act. Btw the stats on that necklace +15str + 42 sta +25wis + 25int 125health 125 power 1,079 divine 581 posion 4 defense 4 aggression +2 heal crit +2 spell crit +2 melee crit </blockquote>And this is exactly why you form guild groups for farming runs.  The gear/masters needed most gets on the players that need it the most in the least amount of time.

Valphine
10-07-2008, 11:27 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gameplay and the choice of loot. Some players realy need to take a second thought about Need items, had a not so very nice "steal" in chelsith a few days back. For manny month back Ive been farming Chelsith for Armguards of the Elite Yha-lei Shock Troops & Prime Clasp of Sustenance. Atlast Prime Clasp of Sustenance droped! Cant find a better legendary necklace for a paladin then that. Had a 79 Chanter in the group the did a need & of course won it. My point is, some players realy should think before the act. Btw the stats on that necklace +15str + 42 sta +25wis + 25int 125health 125 power 1,079 divine 581 posion 4 defense 4 aggression +2 heal crit +2 spell crit +2 melee crit </blockquote>And this is exactly why you form guild groups for farming runs.</blockquote>Indeed.

DragonMaster2385
10-07-2008, 11:37 AM
oh, I thought the gi was only wearable by Brawlers, which is why I thought it was insane that the swash needed on it.

Errolflynn
10-07-2008, 11:48 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh, I thought the gi was only wearable by Brawlers, which is why I thought it was insane that the swash needed on it. </blockquote>Nope, anyone can wear it but cloth. Bit of a poke in the eye for Brawlers in my opinion but at least I have it on my Monk. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

interstellarmatter
10-07-2008, 11:53 AM
<p>From the looks of it, the guy did take a second look and decided the he needed it.  To be honest, if I had been him, I would of rolled on it myself.  </p><p>In a PUG especially, people are going to roll on upgrades for themselves.  You can't make judgement calls on what they should or shouldn't be rolling on.  Unless it's something obvious, like a Warlock rolling on a plate chest piece.</p>

LordPazuzu
10-07-2008, 12:05 PM
<p>It was probably an upgrade for the enchanter, even if it was a poor choice for an upgrade.  Personally, I try to evaluate the item as a whole to determine if it's good for me.  An item only has so much alotted to it based on quality and item level.  As a Monk or Guardian, rolling on an item with +heal/spell damage/etc. is wasted value on an item, and I'm short changing myself and others in the group by rolling on what would only be an interim upgrade for me.  If you discount the bonuses that would useless for the enchanter and calculate the items value solely based the useful bonuses, the item is effectively several levels lower for the enchanter than it's stated level value.  The enchanter has basically rolled on an interim upgrade as opposed to an upgrade of real value.  Thus is the nature of the PuG.</p><p>I'd have Greeded that roll, but I'm superstitious that way.  If I roll Need on an interim upgrade and win, Karma's gonna beat the crap out of me when I roll need on a real upgrade down the line.</p>

Zarador
10-07-2008, 12:19 PM
Since were talking a pickup group and not a group of friends, family or a guild:<ul><li>Did the Enchanter view it as an upgrade to them?</li><li>Was the item usable by the Enchanter?</li></ul>If the answer is yes, then they qualify for the roll, plain and simple. If I'm in a pickup group, quite frankly, I don't know you.  Maybe this is your alternate, maybe it's your main (shrugs); I do know I'm there to progress my character as well. The OP is viewing the upgrade from their perspective and values.  The Enchanter, with full rights to roll viewed it from theirs.  Explaining how valuable "X" is to your class does not diminish the other persons view as to how valuable "Y" is to their own class. When you set the rules upfront and make no exceptions, then you live by those rules while in that group and accept the chance factor that you may not get an item you want. If, as others had stated, the OP had "reserved" that item in the chance that it drops AND te others agreed with that stipulation, then there would be a valid argumnetThe other factor, unless I missed it, is that the OP mentions the value of the item and how many times they tried to get that item, but no where is it mentioned if that was expressed to the group.  Your in a pickup group and assuming that another class, not even in the same branch (Fighter ~vs~ Mage) and expecting that the Mage will know that this is an awesome item for your class, not theirs.  I'm sorry, perhaps I'm greedy, but the first thing I look at is "Can I use the item?"; then "Is it an Upgrade to me?"  <shrugs> for me, that determines if I roll.  I may understand other casters, as well as healers (since living and dieing has often depended on what they can/can't do), but I may (as I do) lack a full appreciation as to what defines "Oh my Gosh" and "That's alright I guess..." fighter gear. What I fail to comprehend in all this, since the OP mentions how many times they tried for this item is why they were not simply upfront with the reserving of the item in the first place.

Trellium
10-07-2008, 12:28 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>while i'd say it obviously benefits a pally the best, it still doesn't mean other classes can't use. you just got beat by the RNG on a /ran 2 roll is all. </blockquote>Thats not my point, might been an upgrade for him now but I bet he will replace that neck shortly, theres alot other caster items thats better. My point is some should give items another thought before do a need.</blockquote>Sounds like you are saying your need is more than his need. It's really not your place to decide how much someone else wants a particular item. He wanted it, you wanted it, he won it fair and square via the random number generator. Get over it, go for a walk, get some fresh air.

Dareena
10-07-2008, 12:44 PM
<p>Just as a general commentary, I'm amazed what some people will Need on these days.  The last time I ran Chelsith, the melee scout chest piece dropped.  I sort of understand the Troubador rolling against me (even though they needed to level twice to wear it), but the Defiler!!??  What the heck?  Since when do defiler's need a melee chest piece?</p><p>I know that there's an AA line that shaman's share for getting some melee bonuses.  But where do you draw the line?  It's not like a melee defiler is a very viable build at 80th level.</p>

Oh
10-07-2008, 12:57 PM
<cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just as a general commentary, I'm amazed what some people will Need on these days.  The last time I ran Chelsith, the melee scout chest piece dropped.  I sort of understand the Troubador rolling against me (even though they needed to level twice to wear it), but the Defiler!!??  What the heck?  Since when do defiler's need a melee chest piece?</p><p>I know that there's an AA line that shaman's share for getting some melee bonuses.  But where do you draw the line?  It's not like a melee defiler is a very viable build at 80th level.</p></blockquote><p>Really this whole thread just stinks of folks opinions of how others should play their class and based on that "assumption" then what they should need or not need. Seriously I have seen good players and bad players, educated and clueless players play this game. There are lot's of types, and frankly if there is something that you are "looking for" then you should state it up front when forming the group, and again repeate it when everyone is in the zone and before you start pulling, and heck make sure and tell them just before you do that boss because you know there is someone who isn't paying attention at all. Although even if you do state this up front be prepaired for folks not likeing that you want to do this and maybe getting droped from the group. Just as you want to be unwilling to bend others might be the same.</p><p>The best suggestion was one made earlier, form guild/friends groups. Problem solved.</p>

Kendricke
10-07-2008, 01:03 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>scruffylookin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I thought that if you can equip it, and if it's better than the equipment you currently have equipped, then choosing "need" is perfectly appropriate. I don't expect anyone to evaluation whether it would be better for me or them. If they plan on using it, choose "need." If they plan on selling it, use "greed." </blockquote>Aye but some items should be reconsider. Like shoulders in maidens can be used by a cleric... poor that tank if he need them...</blockquote><p>Two words:  guild group.</p>

DragonMaster2385
10-07-2008, 01:07 PM
I do not take level into consideration. If they need to level twice to wear it, they should still roll on it. Maybe if I knew they would run into a quested item that was better before then, I would say something. But a couple of levels away from wearing it should not stop a roll.

Zarador
10-07-2008, 01:22 PM
If your in a PuG, then your working with strangers in the chance that you <b><i>might</i></b> gain something in a group that you obviously were unable to put together with friends/family or guild. There is no way that you can be "hosed over" by anyone one since that chance would not even exist were it not for that PuG.This is but one of the reasons that people avoid Pick Up Groups in the first place.  It's the assumption that you know that you deserve something that obviously is more useful to you, than it could ever be to me.   You assumed that a stranger, seeing what they deemed to be an upgrade to them, should have deferred that roll while guessing that someone else may need that item more.

Azekah1
10-07-2008, 02:26 PM
This is always a problem with PUG's...it can even be a problem in a guild group...They might THINK they actually do need it, or your opinions might just disagree...In those cases the RNG is the blind judge...(gotta love it when people need rares or status items)

DragonMaster2385
10-07-2008, 02:30 PM
lol, I have never been in a group with someone that needed on a rare, but I would sure as hell say something if they did.

Rahatmattata
10-07-2008, 02:39 PM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If you are tanking, and need the defensive bonuses, then this is the necklace you want... aITEM -1433729429 870494300<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />anak Essence Vial Necklace/a<p>If you are not tanking, or your healers are able to keep you up without issue, this is the necklace you want... aITEM 717281040 -596555433:Ganak's Torque/a</p><p>The notion of getting an item that is have offensive and half defensive and calling it good enough is one of the ways in which bad players come about.</p></blockquote>I have all kinds of gear I swap in and out that is a mix of survivability and dps, from encounter to encounter depending on what I want. Tanking is finding a balance between survivability and threat control. That is definately a paladin (crusader?) neck, but that being said, in a pug if it's an upgrade roll on it. If it's a guild group then yea, whoever it would benefit the most should get it.

Rahatmattata
10-07-2008, 02:41 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh, I thought the gi was only wearable by Brawlers, which is why I thought it was insane that the swash needed on it. </blockquote>Nope, anyone can wear it but cloth. Bit of a poke in the eye for Brawlers in my opinion but at least I have it on my Monk. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>The only reason brawlers cry about it is because the model looks like a gi. If they had just made the graphic look like some regular leather BP, they'd still cry about it bur probably less.

Zarador
10-07-2008, 03:41 PM
Maybe a sequel thread will arise out of all this "<i><b>How much did I really want that item</b></i>?" <ul><li>Did I announce upfront what I wanted out of the PuG?</li><li>Did I still bid on all the other loots knowing that I wanted a specific item?</li><li>Did I check to see what classes could use the item and if it would be an upgrade to anyone else in the group? </li><li>(See above) If so, did I ask them if they could pass on that upgrade so I could win the item on the roll?</li></ul>I would be interested actually in knowing what was said prior to that drop.  If it's a specific item that drops off a specific mob, then there should have been some knowledge of the potentiality for that item to drop off that mob.  Was it just assumed that everyone would know it's "almost the best item for his class" so they would pass on the bid?  Maybe we will get to that mob, maybe it will drop that item, maybe everyone will know I need it more than them.  That's a lot of maybes there!

pandemonium73
10-07-2008, 04:16 PM
I understand the frustration that some may feel when they don't get an item they really wanted, but let me speak up for the "item oblivious".When I group, I go for the fun of it, or to hang out with someone cool I've met, and if I happen to get lucky enough to get an upgrade, that's just gravy.  I don't know what drops in which zone off which mob. I don't even know about gear that I haven't stumbled upon, because I don't go around inspecting people, and I don't hunt the info online, so if I don't encounter it on the broker, an npc, or in a drop, I'm clueless as to its very existence. If I don't even bother to look up gear for my own toon, there's no way in hell I know what will be an upgrade for YOUR toon.  If you don't tell me ahead of time, why the hell should I know?  It bears absolutely no relevance to how I play the game.  Now if you let me know ahead of time that it's what you are really craving, THEN it becomes relevant to me, because I'm generally a nice person that is happy to see folks get what they want.Otherwise, however, the one time out of 20 that I inspect something that is actually an upgrade for me, I click need and would be really [Removed for Content] if someone then had the chutzpah to get mad at me for it, since I am like the LEAST loot greedy person you're likely to meet (that's just hyperbole, I actually think there are plenty of others just like me out there).But I don't understand what the fuss over gear is personally. At level 80, my items are a mix of what I could get on solo quests, legendary from drops and off the broker (I like looking for and selling shiny's, so can always afford what I need off the broker), and a couple last pieces of Master crafted. My spells are a few Mastered and the rest Adept 3. I have everything adorned.  I'm not dressed in rags, but I'm nowhere near "maxed" and have no problem solo healing almost any zone if my group is at least as skilled and as equipped as I am (Don't know about RE2 since I haven't tried that since coming back to the game, but I bet I could with a couple practice runs... skill is still more important than gear now that they've made reasonably good gear easier to get for a player like myself).  Cripes, I can hardly get motivated to camp for my fabled, since the big perk on it is a power proc and I never have a problem keeping power up anyway. If you want to raid I get it, but for anyone else I just think of gear as fun extras, not as life and death essentials.Hmmm, now that I think about it, I guess I can see how gear also might be more important for different classes that it is for me as a Warden. But either way, the point is, don't automatically assume the person clicked need because they were selfish, they may have been the exact opposite, a person who cares very little about gear and simply clicks need when they see a true upgrade because that's what they assume the mechanic is THERE for, unless informed otherwise.

CrazyMoogle
10-07-2008, 04:20 PM
<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yuck, melee spec'd enchanter FTL... I feel bad for any chanter with those aa lines, they should do some reading.</blockquote>Let's hear it, champ.

Dreadpatch
10-07-2008, 04:34 PM
While I understand the mechanics of a PuG and the risks you take putting one together/ joining one when it comes to loot, I'm simply amazed by the stupidity of many players at end game who should be experts on their class. I, by some miracle, have been extremely lucky in PuG's with the NBG set up. I don't typically run into these problems in PuG's so I'm not sure if that's server related or what. I fear that it's only going to get worse with the easy button leveling that is being put into the game from 20-70. While I'm glad I can level some of my alts easier, I'm afraid we are going to be dealing with a lot more noobs and immaturity in the top tier of the game. Regardless of whether or not the OP should group with guild or what not, that piece of jewelry is clearly a crusader piece based on the stats, and the chanter shouldn't have rolled on it unless no one else in the group needed it, period. Now I know technically they had every right to, but that is not a mage piece, sorry. Put that person on ignore and never play with them again, not because they did something terribly wrong, but because they are a noob and have no idea how to play their class (or are selfish a holes). Either way, not someone you want to play with again. Eventually you will weed out who to play with and who not to play with. I like to do PuG's too, as well as guild group, so just not grouping in PuG's is not realistic in a MMORPG. Sometimes my guild isn't available to group.

Dreadpatch
10-07-2008, 04:44 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yuck, melee spec'd enchanter FTL... I feel bad for any chanter with those aa lines, they should do some reading.</blockquote>Let's hear it, champ.</blockquote>What do you want to hear?  : )  I'll be more than happy to assist...

interstellarmatter
10-07-2008, 04:53 PM
<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I understand the mechanics of a PuG and the risks you take putting one together/ joining one when it comes to loot, I'm simply amazed by the stupidity of many players at end game who should be experts on their class. I, by some miracle, have been extremely lucky in PuG's with the NBG set up. I don't typically run into these problems in PuG's so I'm not sure if that's server related or what.I fear that it's only going to get worse with the easy button leveling that is being put into the game from 20-70. While I'm glad I can level some of my alts easier, I'm afraid we are going to be dealing with a lot more noobs and immaturity in the top tier of the game.Regardless of whether or not the OP should group with guild or what not, that piece of jewelry is clearly a crusader piece based on the stats, and the chanter shouldn't have rolled on it unless no one else in the group needed it, period. Now I know technically they had every right to, but that is not a mage piece, sorry. Put that person on ignore and never play with them again, not because they did something terribly wrong, but because they are a noob and have no idea how to play their class (or are selfish a holes).Either way, not someone you want to play with again. Eventually you will weed out who to play with and who not to play with. I like to do PuG's too, as well as guild group, so just not grouping in PuG's is not realistic in a MMORPG. Sometimes my guild isn't available to group.</blockquote>Actually, it's people like you that keep me away from PUGs.  You know, the know it all on who should be rolling on what gear.

Dreadpatch
10-07-2008, 05:05 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I understand the mechanics of a PuG and the risks you take putting one together/ joining one when it comes to loot, I'm simply amazed by the stupidity of many players at end game who should be experts on their class. I, by some miracle, have been extremely lucky in PuG's with the NBG set up. I don't typically run into these problems in PuG's so I'm not sure if that's server related or what.I fear that it's only going to get worse with the easy button leveling that is being put into the game from 20-70. While I'm glad I can level some of my alts easier, I'm afraid we are going to be dealing with a lot more noobs and immaturity in the top tier of the game.Regardless of whether or not the OP should group with guild or what not, that piece of jewelry is clearly a crusader piece based on the stats, and the chanter shouldn't have rolled on it unless no one else in the group needed it, period. Now I know technically they had every right to, but that is not a mage piece, sorry. Put that person on ignore and never play with them again, not because they did something terribly wrong, but because they are a noob and have no idea how to play their class (or are selfish a holes).Either way, not someone you want to play with again. Eventually you will weed out who to play with and who not to play with. I like to do PuG's too, as well as guild group, so just not grouping in PuG's is not realistic in a MMORPG. Sometimes my guild isn't available to group.</blockquote>Actually, it's people like you that keep me away from PUGs.  You know, the know it all on who should be rolling on what gear.</blockquote><p>You mean people who know there class and expect other people to as well at end game?  If you don't know what kind of gear you need at level 80 I'm pretty much all set with grouping with you anyways!! You'll be missed!!</p><p> When I play with noobs at early levels who just started the game, I'm never hard on them at all, I understand that they need to learn the game.  If you played for years and you still don't know how to, that's just sad.  BTW, I have no problem EVER finding a PuG.  Reason being I actually "contribute" to the groups success and let people have their class appropriate gear when it drops.  It's called being knowledgeable and polite.</p>

woolf2k
10-07-2008, 05:10 PM
make your intensions clear when you join a group. The results of your example are perfectly fine.

acctlc
10-07-2008, 05:58 PM
Stupid people absolutely abound in this world and definitely in this game. People powerlvl up these toons and reach 80 without even a clear understanding of what their own spells do, I see this all the time. Is that chanter stupid for rolling against you in a PuG? IMHO nope not really. If you are farming for an item my suggestion is get a group of friends that know you're after that item. Otherwise be prepared to take it up the ...well ya know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

pandemonium73
10-08-2008, 02:32 AM
<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I understand the mechanics of a PuG and the risks you take putting one together/ joining one when it comes to loot, I'm simply amazed by the stupidity of many players at end game who should be experts on their class. I, by some miracle, have been extremely lucky in PuG's with the NBG set up. I don't typically run into these problems in PuG's so I'm not sure if that's server related or what.I fear that it's only going to get worse with the easy button leveling that is being put into the game from 20-70. While I'm glad I can level some of my alts easier, I'm afraid we are going to be dealing with a lot more noobs and immaturity in the top tier of the game.Regardless of whether or not the OP should group with guild or what not, that piece of jewelry is clearly a crusader piece based on the stats, and the chanter shouldn't have rolled on it unless no one else in the group needed it, period. Now I know technically they had every right to, but that is not a mage piece, sorry. Put that person on ignore and never play with them again, not because they did something terribly wrong, but because they are a noob and have no idea how to play their class (or are selfish a holes).Either way, not someone you want to play with again. Eventually you will weed out who to play with and who not to play with. I like to do PuG's too, as well as guild group, so just not grouping in PuG's is not realistic in a MMORPG. Sometimes my guild isn't available to group.</blockquote>Actually, it's people like you that keep me away from PUGs.  You know, the know it all on who should be rolling on what gear.</blockquote><p>You mean people who know there class and expect other people to as well at end game?  <b>If you don't know what kind of gear you need at level 80 I'm pretty much all set with grouping with you anyways!! You'll be missed!!</b></p><p> When I play with noobs at early levels who just started the game, I'm never hard on them at all, I understand that they need to learn the game.  If you played for years and you still don't know how to, that's just sad.  BTW, I have no problem EVER finding a PuG.  Reason being I actually "contribute" to the groups success and let people have their class appropriate gear when it drops.  It's called being knowledgeable and polite.</p></blockquote>Your pomposity is highly amusing.  Who the hell are you to decide what kind of gear other people should need at level 80, considering how many different kinds of play styles this game supports? For the game I've been playing, simply having the best gear I can get from soloing, group drops, and broker is all I've needed, plus a strong knowledge of what my spells do and when to use them.  I guess I'm just that good. Maybe you are so stupid that you can't be effective without pouring over every class board and website to find the exact gear your class needs to be maxed out, but I don't.  And if you DO indeed need to do this for valid reasons such as raiding, or to make up for having a class that has gotten the shaft by the Dev's, then do what you need to do and stop being a pompous rear who assumes that people who don't play the way you do are stupid people who don't know their toon.  Yes, EQ2 has stupidity, probably in about equal proportion to what one would find in the general population, but I would include the kind of dimwits that make half thought out assumptions about people when they have so little information to go on among that number.  There was nothing in the op's post to indicate that this player sucked as a player, just that he questioned why they would roll need on this item.  Maybe to play the way you play, one needs to be 100% up on gear, but it is by no means a necessity for the average player. I write for a living, and I play this game for fun and relaxation, not for "the challenge".  In fact, I don't find the game "challenging" at all.  It's so freakin' easy.  Top tier raiding is a challenge, and I respect the raiders who choose a hobby that they find challenging, as long as they don't act like idiots who look down on those who don't approach the game that way.  I happen to have challenging hobbies myself, they just aren't EQ2, that's MY relaxing fun.  If you have any toons on AB, put Indii on your ignore list fool.

Noaani
10-08-2008, 02:41 AM
<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If you are tanking, and need the defensive bonuses, then this is the necklace you want... aITEM -1433729429 870494300<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />anak Essence Vial Necklace/a <p>If you are not tanking, or your healers are able to keep you up without issue, this is the necklace you want... aITEM 717281040 -596555433:Ganak's Torque/a</p><p>The notion of getting an item that is have offensive and half defensive and calling it good enough is one of the ways in which bad players come about.</p></blockquote>I have all kinds of gear I swap in and out that is a mix of survivability and dps, from encounter to encounter depending on what I want. Tanking is finding a balance between survivability and threat control.</blockquote><p>I swap gear out on my tank depending on the group makeup all the time too. One thing that became imediatly apparint to me in RoK though, was the fact that you are better off having pure DPS/hate gain and pure defense gear than items with both.</p><p>If you take any 2 slots, and get the best hate gain and the best survivability item for each, and then get the best item that does 'both', you are far better off having one hate and one survival than 2 mixed. Since there are 21 slots you can do this with, you can get virtually any mix of survivability, hate and DPS using only gear that is specific to one, and you are better off for doing so.</p>

Dreadpatch
10-08-2008, 09:06 AM
<cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I understand the mechanics of a PuG and the risks you take putting one together/ joining one when it comes to loot, I'm simply amazed by the stupidity of many players at end game who should be experts on their class. I, by some miracle, have been extremely lucky in PuG's with the NBG set up. I don't typically run into these problems in PuG's so I'm not sure if that's server related or what.I fear that it's only going to get worse with the easy button leveling that is being put into the game from 20-70. While I'm glad I can level some of my alts easier, I'm afraid we are going to be dealing with a lot more noobs and immaturity in the top tier of the game.Regardless of whether or not the OP should group with guild or what not, that piece of jewelry is clearly a crusader piece based on the stats, and the chanter shouldn't have rolled on it unless no one else in the group needed it, period. Now I know technically they had every right to, but that is not a mage piece, sorry. Put that person on ignore and never play with them again, not because they did something terribly wrong, but because they are a noob and have no idea how to play their class (or are selfish a holes).Either way, not someone you want to play with again. Eventually you will weed out who to play with and who not to play with. I like to do PuG's too, as well as guild group, so just not grouping in PuG's is not realistic in a MMORPG. Sometimes my guild isn't available to group.</blockquote>Actually, it's people like you that keep me away from PUGs.  You know, the know it all on who should be rolling on what gear.</blockquote><p>You mean people who know there class and expect other people to as well at end game?  <b>If you don't know what kind of gear you need at level 80 I'm pretty much all set with grouping with you anyways!! You'll be missed!!</b></p><p> When I play with noobs at early levels who just started the game, I'm never hard on them at all, I understand that they need to learn the game.  If you played for years and you still don't know how to, that's just sad.  BTW, I have no problem EVER finding a PuG.  Reason being I actually "contribute" to the groups success and let people have their class appropriate gear when it drops.  It's called being knowledgeable and polite.</p></blockquote>Your pomposity is highly amusing.  Who the hell are you to decide what kind of gear other people should need at level 80, considering how many different kinds of play styles this game supports? For the game I've been playing, simply having the best gear I can get from soloing, group drops, and broker is all I've needed, plus a strong knowledge of what my spells do and when to use them.  I guess I'm just that good. Maybe you are so stupid that you can't be effective without pouring over every class board and website to find the exact gear your class needs to be maxed out, but I don't.  And if you DO indeed need to do this for valid reasons such as raiding, or to make up for having a class that has gotten the shaft by the Dev's, then do what you need to do and stop being a pompous rear who assumes that people who don't play the way you do are stupid people who don't know their toon.  Yes, EQ2 has stupidity, probably in about equal proportion to what one would find in the general population, but I would include the kind of dimwits that make half thought out assumptions about people when they have so little information to go on among that number.  There was nothing in the op's post to indicate that this player sucked as a player, just that he questioned why they would roll need on this item.  Maybe to play the way you play, one needs to be 100% up on gear, but it is by no means a necessity for the average player. I write for a living, and I play this game for fun and relaxation, not for "the challenge".  In fact, I don't find the game "challenging" at all.  It's so freakin' easy.  Top tier raiding is a challenge, and I respect the raiders who choose a hobby that they find challenging, as long as they don't act like idiots who look down on those who don't approach the game that way.  I happen to have challenging hobbies myself, they just aren't EQ2, that's MY relaxing fun.  If you have any toons on AB, put Indii on your ignore list fool.</blockquote><p>I think it's pompous to ruin other people's fun because you don't know what to roll on for your toon because you don't care enough about your community to understand how you fit into it. In the example of the necklace, it wasn't totally ridiculous that the illu rolled on it I guess.  So perhaps this isn't the best example, but I have seen some ridiculous rolls in the past.  Itemization in this game is class related sorry to tell you, and if you don't want to learn about the complexities of the game and your class through others OR the boards (you can glean information from both), then I don't want to play with you plain and simple.  That's all I'm saying, you can play the game however you want (probably not good), but that won't be my problem because I won't be grouping with you.</p><p> The idea of a multi player game is to work together.  Teach the noobs, and work together to defeat difficult content.  Sometimes people have jobs to do in order to be successful doing this.</p><p> In closing, and I'm not a writer (I have no clue what that has to do with anything), you can do what you want, but you're ignorance will only burn me once.</p>

TuinalOfTheNexus
10-08-2008, 10:33 AM
<p>Hypothetical situation:</p><p>Say your Inquisitor already has every Maiden's drop except the shoulders, and you really want them for DPS gear on raids. If you join a PUG for maidens it's pretty likely the tank will want them too, because a tank who already has them has absolutely no reason to do the instance (well, maybe the Gi, but then same point applies with Tanks/Scouts).</p><p>If you defer to the tank every time, you will simply never loot the shoulders. Hence there is really no point in you joining the group in the first place. So it's effectively saying unless you can find 5 guildies who want to farm them for you, you can never get them. The same applies to lots of items that are useful in DPS setups but not best-choice from a 'who could use it the best' perspective (Usla's Bangle for Furies, Bloodthirsty choker for healers, Gahdash's Bangle for Fighters, the list goes on).</p><p>Consequently I have no problem with anyone rolling need on an item if I can see <i>any</i> legitimate use for it. There is of course just plain stupid, like a Wizard looting Grunblig's Coil, and that deserves blacklisting, but you should expect in a pickup group that people will be interested in gearing up their toon, and not in gearing up strangers they might well never group with again</p>

Dreadpatch
10-08-2008, 11:31 AM
I don't know if it's because we have a low server population or not, but I run into a lot of the same people in PuG's. I know some of it is that they look for me so I get repeat invites, and I've also seen people lfg that the group organizer leaves out because they aren't up to snuff. Don't underestimate the power of being blacklisted, it happens to people more than they want to believe. It can make it troublesome to find groups for some folks, I've seen it happen. Especially if you want to get into some of the more difficult zones. A lot of people who run the best PuG's do it on the regular and will add friends in order to make sure they are going to put together a group that will be successful in a zone like RE2. I'm sorry if I seem elitist, but knowledge is power anywhere in life or game : )

Thunndar316
10-08-2008, 11:37 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gameplay and the choice of loot. Some players realy need to take a second thought about Need items, had a not so very nice "steal" in chelsith a few days back. For manny month back Ive been farming Chelsith for Armguards of the Elite Yha-lei Shock Troops & Prime Clasp of Sustenance. Atlast Prime Clasp of Sustenance droped! Cant find a better legendary necklace for a paladin then that. Had a 79 Chanter in the group the did a need & of course won it. My point is, some players realy should think before the act.Btw the stats on that necklace+15str + 42 sta +25wis + 25int125health 125 power1,079 divine 581 posion4 defense 4 aggression+2 heal crit+2 spell crit+2 melee crit</blockquote><p>I understand your frustration but if he thinks he really needs it theres not much to say.  </p>

Killerbee3000
10-08-2008, 11:42 AM
<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote> Don't underestimate the power of being blacklisted, it happens to people more than they want to believe.</blockquote><p>or the opposite, if they know that you have a healer / tank / chanter alt, </p><p>you: easy replacable class lfg for xxxx</p><p>them: can you come with class x instead? </p><p>leads to the same result though, no groups for certain toons lol.</p>

interstellarmatter
10-08-2008, 11:44 AM
<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sorry if I seem elitist, but knowledge is power anywhere in life or game : )</blockquote>Apology accepted...because that's exactly how you came out.

Dreadpatch
10-08-2008, 02:02 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm sorry if I seem elitist, but knowledge is power anywhere in life or game : )</blockquote>Apology accepted...because that's exactly how you came out.</blockquote><p>The funny thing is that I'm a very casual player and I'm not that concerned with getting fabled out, only playing my character to the best of my ability with the gear I can attain.  I can usually hold my own even when I'm running in PuG's with uber raid geared toons.  I'm not really THAT sorry, you can choose whether or not you are going to get offended by some MMO game player that you don't know on a forum.  I didn't get offended by your comments, as everyone is entitled to their opinion including myself.  So in closing, take it easy : ) </p>

LordPazuzu
10-08-2008, 02:19 PM
<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I understand the mechanics of a PuG and the risks you take putting one together/ joining one when it comes to loot, I'm simply amazed by the stupidity of many players at end game who should be experts on their class. I, by some miracle, have been extremely lucky in PuG's with the NBG set up. I don't typically run into these problems in PuG's so I'm not sure if that's server related or what.I fear that it's only going to get worse with the easy button leveling that is being put into the game from 20-70. While I'm glad I can level some of my alts easier, I'm afraid we are going to be dealing with a lot more noobs and immaturity in the top tier of the game.Regardless of whether or not the OP should group with guild or what not, that piece of jewelry is clearly a crusader piece based on the stats, and the chanter shouldn't have rolled on it unless no one else in the group needed it, period. Now I know technically they had every right to, but that is not a mage piece, sorry. Put that person on ignore and never play with them again, not because they did something terribly wrong, but because they are a noob and have no idea how to play their class (or are selfish a holes).Either way, not someone you want to play with again. Eventually you will weed out who to play with and who not to play with. I like to do PuG's too, as well as guild group, so just not grouping in PuG's is not realistic in a MMORPG. Sometimes my guild isn't available to group.</blockquote>Actually, it's people like you that keep me away from PUGs.  You know, the know it all on who should be rolling on what gear.</blockquote><p>You mean people who know there class and expect other people to as well at end game?  If you don't know what kind of gear you need at level 80 I'm pretty much all set with grouping with you anyways!! You'll be missed!!</p><p> When I play with noobs at early levels who just started the game, I'm never hard on them at all, I understand that they need to learn the game.  If you played for years and you still don't know how to, that's just sad.  BTW, I have no problem EVER finding a PuG.  Reason being <b>I actually "contribute" to the groups success and let people have their class appropriate gear when it drops.  It's called being knowledgeable and polite.</b></p></blockquote>Thank you!

Luag
10-08-2008, 09:18 PM
guild group, or not, what all of get the most out of, is 5 more people you play with regularly, friends if you will"hey want that ganaks torque?" "nah I'd rather your brig get it" says the pallythe item may do more for the pally, by being equiped on the brig.in short, run friend groups

erin
10-09-2008, 09:32 AM
<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless of whether or not the OP should group with guild or what not, that piece of jewelry <b>is clearly a crusader piece</b> based on the stats, <b>and the chanter shouldn't have rolled on it</b> unless no one else in the group needed it, period. Now I know technically they had every right to, but that is not a mage piece, sorry. Put that person on ignore and never play with them again, not because they did something terribly wrong, but because they are a noob and have no idea how to play their class (or are selfish a holes).</blockquote>It is?  He shouldn't?Its a good piece for a chanter, and if he had a crap piece in that slot, then he had every right and reason to roll on it. Its a PUG, not a guild group.  Was the chanter there to help the paladin?  No.  He was there to get loot, just like the paladin, just like every other person there.I've had a few groups where someone rolled on something and was told they shouldn't have because someone else in the group "needs it more".  Its a need before greed system, not a "who needs it the most" system. If you want a particular item in that dungeon, say so up front.  I'll respect that you really really want that one item, even if its a great upgrade for me.  At least I get to make the choice, up front.

erin
10-09-2008, 09:34 AM
<cite>Lethe5683 wrote:</cite><blockquote>This happend to me twice in maidens, when the fabled gi dropped.  The first time it got stolen by some swashy and the second time a druid needed on it.  At this point I have to set leader only looting on the last two nameds in maidens to keep people from ninja looting or declining something because they think someone else can use it when no one else needs it.  </blockquote>The declining thing is annoying.  But "stolen"?  Can they wear it?  Was it an upgrade?  Then it wasn't stolen.  As soon as you set it on leader only I would be asking why, and most people would leave the PUG once you explained.  At least that's my experience.  Once again, very elitist.  Who are you to decide what is an upgrade to other people?

Dreadpatch
10-09-2008, 10:50 AM
<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless of whether or not the OP should group with guild or what not, that piece of jewelry <b>is clearly a crusader piece</b> based on the stats, <b>and the chanter shouldn't have rolled on it</b> unless no one else in the group needed it, period. Now I know technically they had every right to, but that is not a mage piece, sorry. Put that person on ignore and never play with them again, not because they did something terribly wrong, but because they are a noob and have no idea how to play their class (or are selfish a holes).</blockquote>It is?  He shouldn't?Its a good piece for a chanter, and if he had a crap piece in that slot, then he had every right and reason to roll on it. Its a PUG, not a guild group.  Was the chanter there to help the paladin?  No.  He was there to get loot, just like the paladin, just like every other person there.I've had a few groups where someone rolled on something and was told they shouldn't have because someone else in the group "needs it more".  Its a need before greed system, not a "who needs it the most" system. If you want a particular item in that dungeon, say so up front.  I'll respect that you really really want that one item, even if its a great upgrade for me.  At least I get to make the choice, up front.</blockquote><p>if you actually took the time to read the rest of the discussion, you would see that I conceded it wasn't the most ridiculous role ever for the illu.  Of course you didn't bother before responding to something posted far earlier in the dicussion early on, but then that doesn't surprise me.</p><p>The piece is still far more helpful to a crusader than it is for an illu.  I probably would have passed as there is two equivalent mage pieces that are extremely easy to obtain in Veksar and CoA that are more appropriate. </p><p>The elitist comments are cracking me up too, there nothing elite about rolling on class appropriate gear in heroic content.  Elitist is raiders stating that there should be absolutely no fabled drops in heroic content.  </p><p> For the record (as the devs have said), Fabled, Legendary, Treasured etc. is a relation so rarity not content.</p><p> In any case, stop being elitist in believing your opinion is the only one that matters  All I said was I don't want to group with people that don't know how to play there class and roll on appropriate gear for aforementioned class.  That is my perogative, people can continue to suck if they so choose because they don't want to learn their class at end game.  That doesn't bother me one bit, to each their own.</p>

Lleren
10-09-2008, 09:43 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>what!? A swash needing on a gi? That's just insane and I would have instantly shouted that in level chat and put the person on my ignore list.</blockquote>pretty much anyone that hits things and doesn't tank wants and can use that Gi, its alos probobly the best chest they can get out of group instances, only tanks that want it are Bruisers/Monks

Zarador
10-10-2008, 12:11 AM
Lets focus on the mechanics of the situation instead of the gear for a minute and put things into a clearer perspective:<ol><li>The OP sets up a group, hoping to get an item that they have previously tried to get in the past.</li><li>The group is a PuG set to Need before Greed.</li><li>The OP does not declare their intentions, if the item drops, their obviously the one to get the item. I'm making that assumption because if I really was after an item that eluded me many times in the past, I would be informing my group that I'm there for that item, is that alright?</li><li>The item drops and the OP looses to an Illusionist who views it as an upgrade also, thus they rolled.</li><li>The OP is outraged, how dare they not know my class! Clearly this was made only for fighters (pencils in FIGHTER ONLY).</li></ol>Now we have had all kinds of explanations as to who knows what class better and who was obviously wrong, but the bottom line still remains that someone who really wanted the item, tried for it in the past several times by their admission, never let that be known to the PuG they were in.  The wrongfully assumed that someone would know that even if it's an upgrade for them, it's a better upgrade for the person next to them.  All this, in a PuG where you have no way of really judging what knowledge any of your group members have.In my many years of playing I have been in situations where "awesome" gear drops that the group of players that frequent the zone calls garbage and laughs about passing on as well as being in groups where people upgrade off of common gear. Explain this off anyway you wish, but Need before Greed usually means that if it's actually an upgrade to you, you can roll.  When I raided in the early days of Everquest Live we would shun players that would claim a marginal upgrade to them while someone who would have received a major upgrade lost out (DKP Bidding).  For the sake of example, the guy who wins gets a 450 Mitigation BP, has a 425 Mitigation BP when the guy who lost had a 300 Mitigation BP.  However, if you don't speak up before the bids are all in, no harm, no foul. I believe the same would apply here.   The Illusionist may have no knowledge of the Fighter Class or that Fighter's Gear.  They see an upgrade to them.  The Fighter is silent figuring no one will bid.  They figured wrong and lost because of THEIR miscalculation of the situation.  If it was truly an upgrade to the Illusionist and no one asked that the others defer, then had every right to bid on the item. A "Roll" is a "Bid" for the item.  Your right to "Bid" is based on your participation in the group and is it an upgrade to you.  That's why people join Need Before Greed groups, so they don't have to depend on what others <b><i>think</i></b> is fair loot distribution.  Now the Illusionist may not have understood a thing about fighters, but they did understand how Need Before Greed works and bid correctly on what they <b><i>deemed to be an upgrade to them</i></b>.

Vain
10-10-2008, 12:21 AM
Get that RoK Mastercrafted one - Danak Essence Vial or whatever. Much better for tanking. If for dps, Ganak's or The Thuuga neck piece, imo.