Why SK epic missing permanent dmg reduction?

[MirageKnight]

I just want to ask developer this very much.Along with all  of added effect to SK epic are bad as junk from design, why SK epic is only tank epic without any defensive stat?

[Kaarim]

I think the weapon was just built to DPS, basically giving us damage of a 2hander but wielding it with one hand. So maybe that was the idea and approach? SK's are offensive tanks. Why the pally weapon has like 20% absorbtion it's cause they are defensive tanks. Guess the weapons are suppose to reflect the intended design of the classes. If the weapon is built for offensive placing a defensive stat will seem to unbalance it and give the best of both worlds. I'm not a developer so I have no clue just assuming based on the class and how the weapon is built.

[Arech Sallazar]

<p>It has an awful hate proc which only makes any difference when the SK is actually taking damage, and the difference is very marginal too</p><p> Splurt is eugh, necro's hate it, dps from it is minor - idea behind the effect is good but the damage increased each tick needs to be a lot higher</p><p>the +CA damage is useless, as will be the new +100spell damage to be added to it. crusaders have said enough how useless this is with the huge amounts of +ca/+spell on VP set gear and other bits and pieces aimed at crusaders</p><p> the new damage proc on the weapon is small and procs less than the paladins mythical damage proc</p><p> SK have the worst avoidance of any tank and cannot hold agro without being in offensive stance (so many posts about the current state of Shadowknights). The DPS a shadowknight can put out is certainly not making up for the lack of tanking survivability, and adding the same "upgrades" to pally and SK mythical wont make any difference to the huge disparity between the two classes.</p>

[MirageKnight]

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the weapon was just built to DPS, basically giving us damage of a 2hander but wielding it with one hand. So maybe that was the idea and approach? SK's are offensive tanks. Why the pally weapon has like 20% absorbtion it's cause they are defensive tanks. Guess the weapons are suppose to reflect the intended design of the classes. If the weapon is built for offensive placing a defensive stat will seem to unbalance it and give the best of both worlds. I'm not a developer so I have no clue just assuming based on the class and how the weapon is built. </blockquote>Well, from your point view, SK epic should have far superior DPS than any other epic as missing 20% absorbtion.Obviously SK doiesn't have any effect that really give better DPS (spur and hate proc is nothing).Also developer just gave proc to both crusader that really confuse me even worse.If both crusader was meant to builld be about same place, then SK should have 20% absorbtion as well.

[Kaarim]

<cite>MirageKnight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the weapon was just built to DPS, basically giving us damage of a 2hander but wielding it with one hand. So maybe that was the idea and approach? SK's are offensive tanks. Why the pally weapon has like 20% absorbtion it's cause they are defensive tanks. Guess the weapons are suppose to reflect the intended design of the classes. If the weapon is built for offensive placing a defensive stat will seem to unbalance it and give the best of both worlds. I'm not a developer so I have no clue just assuming based on the class and how the weapon is built. </blockquote>Well, from your point view, SK epic should have far superior DPS than any other epic as missing 20% absorbtion.Obviously SK doiesn't have any effect that really give better DPS (spur and hate proc is nothing).Also developer just gave proc to both crusader that really confuse me even worse.If both crusader was meant to builld be about same place, then SK should have 20% absorbtion as well.</blockquote>The crusader weapons are the hardest hitting epics no if ands or buts (the weapon is just based off RAW melee damage not class dps or implementing spells). We do have some kind of back up/defensive stat and that's our clicky Touch of Death. I know people will probably call me out saying that it's not plausable enough to be a defensive stat or technique of some sort but it is. Immunity for 8 seconds is a long time specially if you combo it with Divine aura which is 10 seconds and on top of that our Bloodletter and if an SK has 6 VP pieces 2 triggers of Bloodletter. Those are forms of defense it's just not the typical block, parry stuff. It's kinda like defense for the offensive player I would like to think. Paladins can't heal like us, they cannot out heal us if they are dpsing, and they cannot out dps us while they are healing they can only swing one way. We can do both. Realistically the sk out heals the pally now due to reaver, and can dps as equal or more than our counter part at the same time. That's probably why they have 20% absorbtion to make up for the loss of them unable to heal while trying to hold hate or dps since dps goes down once they stop attacking to heal. The hate proc does trigger frequently I currently have the fabled version and have ran many tests on the training wall seething hatred procs for me regularly 5-7 times in one minute, and the damage proc of of it was 3-4% of my overall DPS. It's probably players aren't letting their auto attacks land enough to trigger the proc. As a side note the mit/avoidance mechanics are not working intentionally so I bet as soon as that is fixed and IF they do put a "tank" stat on our weapon it would probably be not as effective anymore and would be better off with the dps stat. Yeah 100Ca/Spell might seem trivial to some people, but for the shadowknights who are some what shaping stat wise to guardians, the increase to +spell will accomidate for the lack of int they have, there is a benefit from it. If your int is "too" high then u can lower it and get more defensive gear but still have the equal DPS since the 100spell still balances it out.

[MirageKnight]

Not sure where to touch about your corrupted logic on paladin tanking vs sk tanking with why paladin to have 20% more absorbtion if you know paladin has higher block rate than SK with AA and can out heal easily with dpsing. Using 6 set piece as SK is too rudicurous for raiding SK as well. Also, you should check what "touch of death" actually does compared to devine aura then make post. Seems you don't know some of basic of how 100 ca/spell works as well.For SK who can get mythical version of epic weapoin, spell+ is way too easy to maxed out because of restriction of spell/ca can't exceed 50% over base dmg. (and SK spell base dmg is too low for this restriction to apply). You cannot balance out dps by spell+ item and lowering INT period. SK would need both INT to raise base dmg to make more spell+ to be effective.Even worse, you have compared with guardian that this 100 ca/spell then I will give you the fact and truth as you don't know anything about them.

[lavasoul]

<cite>Arech Sallazar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It has an awful hate proc which only makes any difference when the SK is actually taking damage, and the difference is very marginal too</p><p> Splurt is eugh, necro's hate it, dps from it is minor - idea behind the effect is good but the damage increased each tick needs to be a lot higher</p><p>the +CA damage is useless, as will be the new +100spell damage to be added to it. crusaders have said enough how useless this is with the huge amounts of +ca/+spell on VP set gear and other bits and pieces aimed at crusaders</p><p> the new damage proc on the weapon is small and procs less than the paladins mythical damage proc</p><p> SK have the worst avoidance of any tank and cannot hold agro without being in offensive stance (so many posts about the current state of Shadowknights). The DPS a shadowknight can put out is certainly not making up for the lack of tanking survivability, and adding the same "upgrades" to pally and SK mythical wont make any difference to the huge disparity between the two classes.</p></blockquote><p>Regarding the dmg proc rate read this thread that I posted and you probably understand why one has a higher rate than the other one. </p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=424458" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=424458</a></p>

[Arech Sallazar]

<p>+CA and +Spell should go from the epic, and be replaced by avoidance, very simple change to make and really needed by SKs especially who are the lowest avoidance tanks in game (yet dont have the dps to make up for it). If not avoidance then gogo more dps, +base dmg would be a proper change</p><p>Splurt (and the necro's will agree) needs to have its damage bonus increased by a lot to make it worthwhile. It could be a good dps increase, atm its just incredibly underpowered</p><p>Seething hatred should just be rewritten to be a reactive damage shield on the SK or something, "for all damage inflicted on the shadowknight, 15% is returned to the enemy"</p><p>Very simple and hardly overpowered changes to make.</p><p>Things like this should be discussed, not whether someone can "outheal with reaver" omg lol - its a totally useless measure of anything lol</p>

[Callim]

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MirageKnight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the weapon was just built to DPS, basically giving us damage of a 2hander but wielding it with one hand. So maybe that was the idea and approach? SK's are offensive tanks. Why the pally weapon has like 20% absorbtion it's cause they are defensive tanks. Guess the weapons are suppose to reflect the intended design of the classes. If the weapon is built for offensive placing a defensive stat will seem to unbalance it and give the best of both worlds. I'm not a developer so I have no clue just assuming based on the class and how the weapon is built. </blockquote>Well, from your point view, SK epic should have far superior DPS than any other epic as missing 20% absorbtion.Obviously SK doiesn't have any effect that really give better DPS (spur and hate proc is nothing).Also developer just gave proc to both crusader that really confuse me even worse.If both crusader was meant to builld be about same place, then SK should have 20% absorbtion as well.</blockquote>The crusader weapons are the hardest hitting epics no if ands or buts (the weapon is just based off RAW melee damage not class dps or implementing spells). We do have some kind of back up/defensive stat and that's our clicky Touch of Death. I know people will probably call me out saying that it's not plausable enough to be a defensive stat or technique of some sort but it is. Immunity for 8 seconds is a long time specially if you combo it with Divine aura which is 10 seconds and on top of that our Bloodletter and if an SK has 6 VP pieces 2 triggers of Bloodletter. Those are forms of defense it's just not the typical block, parry stuff. It's kinda like defense for the offensive player I would like to think. Paladins can't heal like us, they cannot out heal us if they are dpsing, and they cannot out dps us while they are healing they can only swing one way. We can do both. Realistically the sk out heals the pally now due to reaver, and can dps as equal or more than our counter part at the same time. That's probably why they have 20% absorbtion to make up for the loss of them unable to heal while trying to hold hate or dps since dps goes down once they stop attacking to heal. The hate proc does trigger frequently I currently have the fabled version and have ran many tests on the training wall seething hatred procs for me regularly 5-7 times in one minute, and the damage proc of of it was 3-4% of my overall DPS. It's probably players aren't letting their auto attacks land enough to trigger the proc. As a side note the mit/avoidance mechanics are not working intentionally so I bet as soon as that is fixed and IF they do put a "tank" stat on our weapon it would probably be not as effective anymore and would be better off with the dps stat. Yeah 100Ca/Spell might seem trivial to some people, but for the shadowknights who are some what shaping stat wise to guardians, the increase to +spell will accomidate for the lack of int they have, there is a benefit from it. If your int is "too" high then u can lower it and get more defensive gear but still have the equal DPS since the 100spell still balances it out. </blockquote><p>Words can barely describe how off you are Darkwarrior.  </p><p>Crusader weapons are not the hardest hitting weapons, and regardless the value of each hit is useless in determining their offensive or dps values.  </p><p>Guardian epic grants 68 percent or so double attack off the bat which owns SK/Pally epic offensively.</p><p>Zerker epic grants 100 percent aoe attack (granted not much aoe in RoK), and their proc adds something like 10 percent double attack and 15 percent melee crit + damage, which owns SK/Pally epic offensively.</p><p>If you think SK reaver outheals palladins using their mythical, well than I assume you believe that epic mobs only hit for 1k-1500 a hit right? Because 10 percent absorbtion then would be 100-150, and 10 percent reversed heal would double that, so 200-300 heal every time they get hit.  Reaver with 15k+ hp pool will heal roughly that much per spell, so yes, reaver = paladin epic.....</p><p>....in the fairytale world where RoK epics hit for as much as Kylong Plains solo mobs *laugh*.  Every time a teir 1, let alone a VP mob hits a mythical paladin its the equivelent of them self healing for 1000-2000 hp.  Since epics hit for roughly 5-10k a pop.  VP mobs it just goes up.</p><p>Now I don't have any issue with the paladin mythical doing this, but for heavens sake don't say deathtouch come within even so much as a whisper defensively.  SK mythical ought to share the 10 percent absorb, and maybe put on a 5 percent reflect or something to even it out.  Then just take Touch of Death and put it in the closet with Deathtouch where it can gather dust.</p><p>And lastly divine aura is 99 percent USELESS (paladins suffer here too) in RoK raiding, because unless you are sitting at 20k+ hp as a SK its not going to block anything you might want to use it on.  Warrior AA short term avoid endline owns DA so hard it makes crusaders cry, and its 1/3 the reuse time to boot.</p><p>Sheesh...</p><p>  </p>

[Kaarim]

wow..lol i got burned pretty bad. K well the guard thing, I know they don't use spell...if u reread it i said an sk using a guard stat build the 100spell will accomidate for the lack of int. anyways u all have ur views I have mine some will agree some will disagree. I understand why the pally weapon is the way it is and I understand why the shadowknight weapon is the way it is.It works well I like it, it is an improvement and I can't wait for the LU to release and I know im not the only one that feels this way. I am very knowledgeable with this class.And it is yes the hardest hitting melee epic....don't think about stats, dont think about double attack, dont think about crit. Think of it as if u were naked with no gear on period just with the weapon in hand in u take one sinlge swing.If u were to take one swing with each epic, which one will hit the hardest?the ones with a 4sec delay or the ones with the 6second delay?  I was simply talking about RAW dps nothing more.

[Skar]

<cite>Darkwarrior@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>wow..lol i got burned pretty bad. K well the guard thing, I know they don't use spell...if u reread it i said an sk using a guard stat build the 100spell will accomidate for the lack of int. anyways u all have ur views I have mine some will agree some will disagree. I understand why the pally weapon is the way it is and I understand why the shadowknight weapon is the way it is.It works well I like it, it is an improvement and I can't wait for the LU to release and I know im not the only one that feels this way. I am very knowledgeable with this class.And it is yes the hardest hitting melee epic....don't think about stats, dont think about double attack, dont think about crit. Think of it as if u were naked with no gear on period just with the weapon in hand in u take one sinlge swing.If u were to take one swing with each epic, which one will hit the hardest?the ones with a 4sec delay or the ones with the 6second delay?  I was simply talking about RAW dps nothing more.</blockquote><p>Your reasoning is a bigger failure than your original post was. Yes we all have our opinions, but yours is just illogical. Do you run around naked in Crushbone 1 shotting mobs with different weapons and keeping a list of which have more DPS? Cmon... Why reason a moot point? Why have a moot point in the f'ing first place? Don't come fresh from freeport and lead the blind astray (who knows whose posts the dev's decide to read). </p><p>The amount of damage a weapon does in one hit, in NO way defines its DPS (damage per SECOND... not ooo i just hit for 6k!). Much less the full benefit of the weapon, which you are clearly blind to. While upping the delay is much needed, if you consider it against the full benefit of the other tanks epics, the damage does not really make up for it. </p><p>Pallies don't need hate, or dps [high] to do their job as a tank. So, they get other bonuses on their weapons, like 10% dmg reduction and heals for every 10% damage they take. All while still getting every bit of dps boost we do.</p><p>SK however, need the hate when defensive - because we don't have amends, and our defensive dps is lax at best. Rather than fix Siphon Hate, they put a half-a55 version of hate gain on our epic called Seething Hatred - a bonus that sometimes procs, and you can sometimes get a benefit out of it.</p><p>Its like putting a band-aid on a broken leg. Some of us are tired of kicking with broken legs.</p>

[Skar]

<cite>Arech Sallazar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>+CA and +Spell should go from the epic, and be replaced by avoidance, very simple change to make and really needed by SKs especially who are the lowest avoidance tanks in game (yet dont have the dps to make up for it). If not avoidance then gogo more dps, +base dmg would be a proper change</p><p>Splurt (and the necro's will agree) needs to have its damage bonus increased by a lot to make it worthwhile. It could be a good dps increase, atm its just incredibly underpowered</p><p>Seething hatred should just be rewritten to be a reactive damage shield on the SK or something, "for all damage inflicted on the shadowknight, 15% is returned to the enemy"</p><p>Very simple and hardly overpowered changes to make.</p><p>Things like this should be discussed, not whether someone can "outheal with reaver" omg lol - its a totally useless measure of anything lol</p></blockquote><p>1. I highly agree that we need a higher base spell damage increase. Our spells are becomming more and more useless vs all the increased melee damage being done in the game now. 45-50% of my total dps is purely autoattack. Our spells are somewhat of a joke now [with the lack of AE encounters to utilize all our spells].</p><p>2. Splurt would be better suited if they would do #1.</p><p>3. I like the Seething Hatred idea... i'd revise it though... 10% dmg reduction, and 10% of damage taken is returned to target.</p>

[Callim]

/Agree Skar

[Giral]

<p>well i have taken a break from eq2. thought i'd pop in and see if the sk epic finaly got the fine tooth comb it and the sk class deserve . but as i have said in sk forums many times i wasn't holding my breath. </p><p>all the way to test . months of posts about just the sk epic alone, posts thru out the original post about the epic redo in LU . and now we are at test and sk's still asking for somehing that should just be there from the start ? its sadly commical in a way </p><p>humm the last 2/3 rd's of my post ws cut off  /ponder.  anyway . to sum it up "i wont hold my breath"</p><p>/back to my extended break </p><p>P.s. luck gang </p>

[Seolta]

<p>WTG guys, we give you pages and pages of input during the WEEKS this update has been in the works and you've chosen to ignore us ONCE AGAIN.</p>

[Mr. Dawki]

<cite>Skar@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>3. I like the Seething Hatred idea... i'd revise it though... 10% dmg reduction, and 10% of damage taken is returned to target.</p></blockquote><p>freeking signed, but as proven time and again the devs "don't have time to fix us" </p><p>See you at fanfaire<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[MirageKnight]

Another fact developer once again ignored SK community feedback even they asked, crappy piece of junk version without any feedback taken into account went live.Not sure if we should keep paying their lunch even they are not working for us, with our earned money.

[MirageKnight]

Still missing any explaination by DEV...