Distribution of Brawler loot in t8 raiding [Archive]

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Siatfallen

07-08-2008, 11:39 PM

(Text in italics is kind of boring and ramblish. Skip if you do not have the patience for me rambling. It's okay, most of the time, I don't either.)Writing here as a monk who've been clearing VP a times now. I've no experience with contested mobs, but barring Maestro, Byzola and Trak, I've helped take down every single instanced t8 raid encounter in the game so far.Seeing how I'm in VP now, this is certainly not a complaint in the sense of "hey, I'm being overlooked & stuf, buff mef" but rather a "This looks dysfunctional". The spread looks as follows:The issue is as follows: The loot for brawlers, while generally good (save for the nerfed mythical weapons which deserved a thread in its own right), is very oddly distributed over the various zones.To begin with, there really isn't a lot of loot in teirs 1 and 2 of the RoK raids designed for brawlers. Excluding the set items but including items which are arguably created with "all fighters" in mind (but in turn excluding a great many crushing fighter-useable weapons with clearly caster-specific stats and/or procs) and going by zone, I end up with the following spread. Be aware that the items have been listed as either "brawler item", meaning we should probably get these before other class types or "useful items", meaning others would likely get more out of the items, or at least just as much, but that we'd eventually want them, provided we didn't get something better from a later zone or the like.Thuuga:Nothing.Protector's Realm:Brawler items: Doomcoil's Deactivated Control BatonUseful items: Az'vile, Wymbulu's Master-at-Arms' Belt of Station Ring of the BastionThe Execution Throneroom:Brawler items: Bonecrusher Remorseless Boots of OpportunityVenril Sathir's Lair:Brawler items: Pants of Infernal EnergyTemple of Kor-Sha:Useful items: Iron-plated Utility Belt Jade Conqueror's Stud Signet of the Heir Drape of SelrackComparatively, in T3, we have:Chamber of Destiny:Brawler items: Mallet of the Crushing Depths Strip of the LeviathanIn T4, then, excluding SoH (if you consider that t4 anyway), but including trakanon (whom some call T5):Trakanon's Lair:Brawler items:Useful items: Ring of Scale General's Cloak Mark Of The DragonslayerVeeshan's Peak:Brawler items: Knuckles of Blistering Blows Supple Dogwood Staff Gi of Swirling Lava Lava-retardant Mining Cap Slavedriver Tunic Gloves of the Patient Killer Dreamslayer Slacks Nightmare Wraps Hide of TravenroUseful items: Disarming Band Protector's Links Pulse of Power Flesh-shredder Satchel Mark of Scaled Rage Wrinkled Talisman Ring of Dark Intent Dreamer's Scale Bandolier of Flowing Lava Dragonclaw Loop Hammer of Swirling Constellations Lava-Walker Utility Belt Linked Band of the Dragon LordsThis, then, between the teirs, gives us (note that brawler items are listed both as brawler items and useful items in the below listing): T1 and T2:10 useful itemsOf those, 4 brawler itemsThis is spread out over 14 named encounters (that drops exquisite chests; some nameds in Kor-Sha were left out).T3: 2 brawler items.This is on 1 named encounter.T4:24 useful items.Of those, 9 brawler items.This is on 13 named encounters.It seems to me rather obvious, given the above, that brawler items are dropping too exclusively from the higher-end zones. In other words, once you get to Leviathan, you're in for something of a lootfest. Until then, you're out of luck. Note that in t1, it seems that the most worthwhile mob to take on is Pawbuster, who can largely be ignored, because the risk vs. reward ratio of that zone is generally considered low as far as I understand.In T2, it's Venril Sathir's Lair, which has the same problem, and in Veeshan's Peak, the brawler loot only really begins dropping at insane rates on the mobs after Nexona, which is generally what's keeping people from progressing in the zone.I do not have a concrete solution on how to fix this problem at this late point in time in the expansion, but it does seem exceptionally strange. If nothing else, please keep this in mind for the gear progression in later expansions. Seeing how I play a brawler myself, this is what I do know something about. I am not aware that other classes have this kind of division in loot drop, and I really cannot see the rationale behind it.Edit: Removed a strategically speaking unfortunately placed "r" between the second and third syllable of "bonecrusher".

07-09-2008, 08:20 AM

take out brawler loot entirely, it just ends up being xmute fodder, make all brawler loot the same as druid loot i.e. use leather, every item will read useable by druids and brawlers and have special effects, like i.e.1. 200+ ca if brawler2. 200+ heals if druidthat solves the problem on stupid brawler only loot dropping every other chest that only gets xmuted.

Faelgalad

07-09-2008, 08:31 AM

An kotau for Siatfallen, even more comprehend Listing of the Problem as in my Posting. If you like, add SoH in two parts, first four Nameds, as they are T1-T2 and Rest of SoH. @Epyx Were do you Raid??? T7? "every other chest" we find nothing for our Brawler Team!

Siatfallen

07-09-2008, 02:07 PM

Faelgalad:Epyx is referring to some of the VP mobs. Roughly half of Xygoz's loot table it brawler loot, and Travenro the Skygazer isn't much better in that regard. Taskmaster Nichok used to have 6 pieces of loot he could drop, whereof 2 were leather armour with melee stats, and two others were melee DPS jewelry - now, he's slightly less strange, in that he has 9 drops (they added, afaik, three charm drops to his table later on?), 2 brawler drops, 3 melee DPS items, and the rest not really interesting for us.Seriously, though, and I've not mentioned it above because it could just be a really strange streak of luck, after clearing VP a few times, we seem to get brawler loot over and over and over. In fact, I have just about every drop in the zone I could possibly use at this point, bar the set items and the ranged slot things. I can't complain, but it seems extremely strange, and it is this discrepancy that I'm trying to address in my original post. A lot of the brawler loot that drops in VP is on par with scout or other tank drops from earlier tiers, posts have been made about this previously on this very forum, and in these lower-tier zones, we are very short on good brawler loot.Epyx:As for removing brawler loot from the game entirely and sticking it with druid items, that would not work out for the best. Yes there is a problem with the loot distribution in VP, but not over the expansion taken as a whole. In fact, if it wasn't because VP is something you're likely to keep running, I'd consider it just payback for all the zones we've been stuck with nonexistant or sub-par loot, it's not that there's too much of it, it's that far and away most of it are located in the one zone guilds who do get to it will keep grinding away at.If the source of your annoyance is that you do not have a brawler on your raid force, then I feel your pain; it must be hard making do without our awesomeness, and seeing further potential awesomeness go to waste by being transmuted. The easy solution? Recruit a brawler. And have an alt or two lying around to take up double drops.On a more serious note, to show you the other side of the coin of your own argument, it would also be possible to allow brawlers to use chain armour in the next expansion. We're bad enough tanks as is and could really use the mit - And it would solve the "special brawler loot" problem without making loot vary wildly depending on the class equipping it. Yes yes, sweeping game mechanics changes with the wave of a hand, I know. But if you want to pursue a reduction in drop-types, something I'm not really that eager to prusue in the first place, this seems like a more logical way to do it. Remember when Fireflyte announced that all healers should just use the leather drops in t8, though? Can't say I'm looking forward to a replay of that situation.

07-09-2008, 03:05 PM

1 monk main, 2 brawler alts, still xmute all this brawler loot that becomes mana's if we're lucky. we dont' even go in vp all that often, we just plan it according to the trak timer, if we could bypass vp and goto trak we would, but you have to zone in to vp once a week to get trak 2x a week and everytime we're in there not even gear some mains can use, just all this brawler crap. Brawlers are the worst class ever in terms of raiding for loot, they take up valuable itemization of loot on mobs.

Valanthe

07-09-2008, 07:45 PM

Don't forget the 2 sets as well (which makes... another 14 pieces of loot)

Faelgalad

07-10-2008, 07:07 AM

Mathematic, every Class has access to 14 Set pieces, so you don't have to count them in. And guess, we can agree that from the T1-T3 Set only a couple of each set are good additions. The qualitiy of the first set is rather crap. From a pure view of stats, a majority of legendary equipment is nicer.

Xanrn

07-10-2008, 11:31 AM

<cite>Auron@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>1 monk main, 2 brawler alts, still xmute all this brawler loot that becomes mana's if we're lucky. we dont' even go in vp all that often, we just plan it according to the trak timer, if we could bypass vp and goto trak we would, but you have to zone in to vp once a week to get trak 2x a week and everytime we're in there not even gear some mains can use, just all this brawler crap. Brawlers are the worst class ever in terms of raiding for loot, they take up valuable itemization of loot on mobs. </blockquote>Oh shut up.[Removed for Content] do you want, no loot for brawlers?God forbid VP drops 2 weapons(one of which isn't that good), 2 BPs (one that ain't that good), one pair of rubbish gloves, one pair of trousers, one shoulders and one hat.Wow 7 bits of loot out of what 85 or so items not counting patterns.So thats works out at something like 6% of VP loot for 8% of the classes. Yeah so most guilds only bring 1 Brawler, but thats a problem with class balance not loot.

Noaani

07-10-2008, 11:57 AM

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it would also be possible to allow brawlers to use chain armour in the next expansion. We're bad enough tanks as is and could really use the mit - And it would solve the "special brawler loot" problem without making loot vary wildly depending on the class equipping it. </blockquote>I think the only way this would happen is if there was a penalty of some kind.Allowing brawlers to wear chain, but at the cost of 25% of their DPS, would be balanced (leather has 75% of the mitigation of chain, which is why I used that number). Giving brawlers an ability to negate that penalty as their major new ability in the next expansion could be fesable as well, similar to how guardians can negate the buckler penalty of the sta achievement line.

07-10-2008, 12:58 PM

Just like it's horrible to have the tranquil stone off avatars, what a waste, at least the 2h can be used by dps priests.

Siatfallen

07-10-2008, 10:24 PM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>it would also be possible to allow brawlers to use chain armour in the next expansion. We're bad enough tanks as is and could really use the mit - And it would solve the "special brawler loot" problem without making loot vary wildly depending on the class equipping it. </blockquote>I think the only way this would happen is if there was a penalty of some kind.Allowing brawlers to wear chain, but at the cost of 25% of their DPS, would be balanced (leather has 75% of the mitigation of chain, which is why I used that number). Giving brawlers an ability to negate that penalty as their major new ability in the next expansion could be fesable as well, similar to how guardians can negate the buckler penalty of the sta achievement line.</blockquote>I was not arguing in favour of this option as such, but using it as an example to argue that if you wanted to eliminate brawler-specific loot, at least attaching us to the chain melee loot would make more sense than trying to make druid/monk gear.In all honesty, though, the difference between leather and chain amounts to a grand total of 500 mit in offensive stance. Granted, it's a difference, but not 25% effective mit. In my current gear (monk mythical makes this very easy to check) it's the difference between 39% and 43% mit, which equals taking about 5.6% less damage (from 71% to 67% of a mob's total damage).If the price is going to be 25% DPS, you've not done anything to make an otherwise not overtly desirable class wanted for raids, and you've effectively nerfed them very, very badly.As for the idea that brawler loot is a waste on raids, I'm not surprised some would think that. I personally think we should just get rid of all the plate loot in the game already. I mean, I can't use it, so why would it be there? It's such a waste of everyone that matter's time.Sarcasm aside, yes there's a problem with brawler loot distribution in t8; too much in Chamber of Destiny (arguably pawbuster) and Veeshan's Peak, too little or nothing elsewhere, that's the subject of this thread. There is also a problem with making brawlers actually wanted on a raid force that adds to the first problem here since min/maxed raids will see more brawler loot than they'd ideally want. That's a flaw in class balance, and I'm glad to hear you agree it's there. I mean, why else would the loot be a waste? Let's save that particular discussion for another thread though, as happy as I am for your support on the matter; it's usually hard to make anyone come out and so very openly admit other's classes are mechanically speaking underpowered for raiding; they'd normally be worried abotu losing raid spots.I'll be sure to make you aware of the issue next time a new thread starts about brawlers needing a boost. If the previous trends on these boards in any indication, it should not be too long at all. Oh, sorry, that was a step back into the sarcasm box there for a second.

Faelgalad

07-11-2008, 09:05 AM

I play a Troub and place my Vote into this. Spending time into something, should give a reward. The reward for our two brawlers is so sparse in T1-T2...Problem would be solved with a single Dev doing a half day work. Artwork/Graphics are more then plentiful. All that is needed are stats for the Items. Guess it doesn't take longer then 4 hours to build 12 Items ^^