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TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 04:23 AM
Anyone else seeing this happen on their server?I am curious as over the past few months the problem seems to be getting worse and worse. What used to be hardcore raid guilds are simply folding due to the lack of players. I believe this as well as the trouble guilds are having with certain mobs is having a serious impact on the population at the top end, at least it is on my server.All of this of course is also effecting casual raiding guilds of which I am in. Previously we were able to field 4 full groups nearly all the time even though the progress on raids was slow. Recently however we simply cannot find any players who can raid even 3 times a week. I have friends in highend raid guilds who again like us simply cannot get the players and are taking 3 groups or less to zones like SOH. Of course this slows progression down even further which frustrates everyone even more. This isnt helped when you have mobs like Master P being 'fixed', so all of a sudden months after the release of SOH guilds which were killing him are now wiping to him.Recently I have seen 2 VP guilds simply disband with most of the players quiting the game because they were stuck on floor 1 of VP and also because  they simply could not find new players to replace the ones who quit.Before anyone jumps on me with the words you suck, learn how to play etc. I am not complaining about mobs being fixed, I just think SOE needs to look at the encounters and realise what exactly is happening with their game. The way i see it there are three tiers of guilds atm:Tier 1 - These guilds are stuck on Venril Satha/Overking and simply cannot progress beyond that.Tier 2 - VP Guilds wiping on the first floor, not getting their mythical updates.Tier 3 - Mythical updates complete, working on avatars etc.So whats the solution to this? The playerbase is dying and raiding is becoming more and more difficult. I would personally like to see a LOT more emphasis on 18man and 12 man raids. I have been reading about the next WOW expansion and I know they cut their raid numbers down to 24 previously and now are taking this one step further with 12man versions of raid zones. It just annoys me to see people leave the game, EQ2 is a damm good MMO but if the game keeps going as it is then you wont have anyone raiding at the top end apart from a few ultra hardcore guilds.

firza
06-17-2008, 06:11 AM
<p>If raid guilds disband because they can not pass Druushk or Nexona it has nothing to do with those mobs....and everything with the organisation and structure of the raid guilds mentioned.</p><p>Also it might be a good idea to make a definition of what you call a raid guild.</p><p>Also, the decline of players might/hopefully will stop soon when the hipe over AoC stops and people notice they pay again to beta test a game.</p>

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 07:11 AM
<cite>firza wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If raid guilds disband because they can not pass Druushk or Nexona it has nothing to do with those mobs....and everything with the organisation and structure of the raid guilds mentioned.</p><p>Also it might be a good idea to make a definition of what you call a raid guild.</p><p>Also, the decline of players might/hopefully will stop soon when the hipe over AoC stops and people notice they pay again to beta test a game.</p></blockquote>I dont agree here at all, Druushk and Nexona are a lot tougher than most of the mobs lower down in VP, where's the logic in that? Raids should get progressively more difficult, you should not have a situation where you have 2 very tough mobs near the entrance of a zone then cake walks through the rest, that to me makes no sense.Thats going off the overall topic though which was that there simply are not the players available anymore for casual guilds to even think about progressing beyond t2 imo. My definintion of a true raid guild would be a guild that has around 30 members, raids for 3/4 hrs a night say 5 times a week. I remember in T6 and even T7 there were 5/6 guilds of this type progressing on content. Atm on my server I can think of 2 actual guilds who have cleared VP with the other 4/5 basically collasping simply because as soon as they lost players they were unable to fill the slots.Of course this all has a water down effect to the casual guilds who are stuck completly with little or no chance to progress.In my opinion SOE needs to rethink the raid part of EQ2 and consider 18 and 12 man raids as if the current trend continues there will be nobody raiding.On the topic of AOC, yep I played it and it was crap. However you cant rely on people simply coming back to EQ2 when there are going to be more games like WAR coming out soon.

Illine
06-17-2008, 07:35 AM
<p>there are different reasons for that :</p><p>First, people get tired of not moving. I remember when we where struggling on venril to flag new guild members so that they could go to VP with us. just a little mistake and pouf, wipe ... you aure get tired of that and so less motivated for raiding. In VP, most people have hard time whether on Nexona or Druushk. My guild killed Druushk but we're still on nexona. sometimes motivation goes down it's true</p><p>Secound VP itself, when the raid wipe, you have to go all the way back to the dragon and some drake repop, so you need to go and kill them or have a good monk that can pass through to rez you. but you loose a lot of time. We tried to bring an alt and delog him but he relogs at the entrance, so useless. compared to leviathan or venril you can't do as many try during an evening.</p><p>Third, time period, summer approches, when sunny weather, people going out more often, exams, soon holydays, in europ there's the football/soccer euro cup, so a lot of people watch it, and not good to raid and watch tv at the same time, so people tend to log less.</p><p>Fourth, people are a bit tired of [email protected], doing the same instances, try new mmo, like AOC and so leave the game, maybe just for a while but it hurts guilds right now</p><p>the problem with VP is that you need a good raid, with the right classes and people knowing what they're doing. and those are boring fights for some, like clicking on statue for 4 people on Druushk... woot, that's fun, on Nexona, there are other funny things and if you get the drain mana right away at the beginning of the fight in the MT group you're almost screwed (not always fortunately). and when you're in a casual guild, you can't have the same raid 4 nights in a row so people don't get used to the strategy and it's harder.</p><p>It's been a weak our guild hasn't been able to try Druushk because we never have the good raid, and it starts to be annoying :s.</p><p>but that's not a pb from SOE, it's a general problem because EQ2 is becoming older and people want to try new stuff, need fresh air and guilds have a hard time because hard core guilds try to recrut of casual guilds classes they need. But those classes are also vital for the guilds they are in and so they don't want to leave their guildmates. other solution if you have enough players is to make people play alts.</p><p>but making the game easier wouldn't be a good solution to alow people to raid with only 3 groups because people would also get tired.</p>

firza
06-17-2008, 07:45 AM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>firza wrote:</cite>I dont agree here at all, Druushk and Nexona are a lot tougher than most of the mobs lower down in VP, where's the logic in that? Raids should get progressively more difficult, you should not have a situation where you have 2 very tough mobs near the entrance of a zone then cake walks through the rest, that to me makes no sense.Thats going off the overall topic though which was that there simply are not the players available anymore for casual guilds to even think about progressing beyond t2 imo. My definintion of a true raid guild would be a guild that has around 30 members, raids for 3/4 hrs a night say 5 times a week. I remember in T6 and even T7 there were 5/6 guilds of this type progressing on content. Atm on my server I can think of 2 actual guilds who have cleared VP with the other 4/5 basically collasping simply because as soon as they lost players they were unable to fill the slots.Of course this all has a water down effect to the casual guilds who are stuck completly with little or no chance to progress.In my opinion SOE needs to rethink the raid part of EQ2 and consider 18 and 12 man raids as if the current trend continues there will be nobody raiding.On the topic of AOC, yep I played it and it was crap. However you cant rely on people simply coming back to EQ2 when there are going to be more games like WAR coming out soon.</blockquote><p>Druushk and Nexona are very killable for organised guilds who take the time and put in the effort to learn them. believe me, we have only killed Nexona last week....it was sooo great. Mythicals should be a victory to receive, not handed over on a silver platter.</p><p>The problem of the player base has nothing to do with so called road blocks, but with peaking populairty of some games, and no new content in others <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The casual guilds just have been given a big bone, they no long rerquire VS.....</p><p>18 and 12 man raids is playing with symantics.....it will not solve the problem of the dwindling population. Or will you afvocate 8 man raids after you can not get your 12 people together anymore?</p><p>No, you are correct. The future will see the release of many new MMO's. Making this one easier will not call those people back who left for new territories....new content will. </p>

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 07:51 AM
I dont think making raids require less people means making them easier, to me it makes sense if you are having population problems. I take your point about people becoming bored but honestly I dont think SOE helps the situation with how the raids are currently. The way I see it is that if you dont have 24 people online then you should have options, it brings everyone down when people login to raid only to find out people are missing or have left the game. What do you do then? You can have people switch to alts but ultimately that doesnt help, what normally happens is that it turns into a ever increasing problem.We dont have enough to do the raid today, next raid same thing happen, population is poor so there are no new recruits to be had, so more people leave which causes more problem. I've seen it happen to so many guilds over the past few months. 18/12 man raids makes sense in my opinion. Damm SOE copied half the ideas from WOW why not this?

firza
06-17-2008, 07:57 AM
<cite>Earar wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>First, people get tired of not moving. I</p><p>Secound VP itself, when the raid wipe, you have to go all the way back to the dragon and some drake repop, so</p><p>Third, time period, summer approches, when sunny weather, people going out more often, exams, soon holydays, in europ there's the football/soccer euro cup, so a lot of people watch it, and not good to raid and watch tv at the same time, so people tend to log less.</p><p>Fourth, people are a bit tired of [email protected], doing the same instances, try new mmo, like AOC and so leave the game, maybe just for a while but it hurts guilds right now</p><p>the problem with VP is that you need a good raid, with the right classes and people knowing what they're doing. and those are boring fights for some, like clicking on statue for 4 people on Druushk... woot, that's fun, on Nexona, there are other funny things and if you get the drain mana right away at the beginning of the fight in the MT group you're almost screwed (not always fortunately). and when you're in a casual guild, you can't have the same raid 4 nights in a row so people don't get used to the strategy and it's harder.</p><p>It's been a weak our guild hasn't been able to try Druushk because we never have the good raid, and it starts to be annoying :s.</p><p>but that's not a pb from SOE, it's a general problem because EQ2 is becoming older and people want to try new stuff, need fresh air and guilds have a hard time because hard core guilds try to recrut of casual guilds classes they need. But those classes are also vital for the guilds they are in and so they don't want to leave their guildmates. other solution if you have enough players is to make people play alts.</p><p>but making the game easier wouldn't be a good solution to alow people to raid with only 3 groups because people would also get tired.</p></blockquote><p>1 that is true now, and has always been true.</p><p>2 there is other ways around this. pst to firza.splitpaw  for info<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>3 as point 1  one more reason why its quite atm.</p><p>4 yup, we need new raid content, not 2 group zones.</p><p>5 clicking FTL, but I think SOE knows that by now. For nexona the power drain is easy to overcome. get the blue collection belt on all healers and spam.</p><p>6 true</p><p>7 true <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 07:58 AM
<cite>firza wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Druushk and Nexona are very killable for organised guilds who take the time and put in the effort to learn them. believe me, we have only killed Nexona last week....it was sooo great. Mythicals should be a victory to receive, not handed over on a silver platter.</blockquote><p>The problem of the player base has nothing to do with so called road blocks, but with peaking populairty of some games, and no new content in others <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p></blockquote>Sorry but I disagree, you cannot progress when the players are simply not there, and this in my opinion has a lot to do with people being bored and also to people being frustrated at not progressing which has a lot to do with SOE. When you only have 50 odd players on a server who can clear VP then you have an issue imo.

Lakland
06-17-2008, 08:04 AM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>So whats the solution to this? The playerbase is dying and raiding is becoming more and more difficult. I would personally like to see a LOT more emphasis on <b>18man and 12 man raids.</b> I have been reading about the next WOW expansion and I know they cut their raid numbers down to 24 previously and now are taking this one step further with 12man versions of raid zones. It just annoys me to see people leave the game, EQ2 is a damm good MMO but if the game keeps going as it is then you wont have anyone raiding at the top end apart from a few ultra hardcore guilds. </blockquote><p>Well, I always liked the idea of this anyway. Not to make an instance easier but simply to offer an opportunity for smaller Guilds to attempt the same content. The rewards should not be the same of course, but it would be nice to see the zone and the bosses in question. Not sure the reasoning behind it, but I always felt they should provide instance selections for 24 or 12 raid encounters. </p><p>Some great examples of what they have done in past releases is already available. They use multi-instances now for some zones with their difficulties (Poet's Palace, etc.) and they used level scaling with Splitpaw and the City Raids.</p><p>Currently, we raid with less than 12, and will hit lower tier raids with mentored players at least to see the content and have fun.</p>

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 08:07 AM
<cite>Lakland wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>So whats the solution to this? The playerbase is dying and raiding is becoming more and more difficult. I would personally like to see a LOT more emphasis on <b>18man and 12 man raids.</b> I have been reading about the next WOW expansion and I know they cut their raid numbers down to 24 previously and now are taking this one step further with 12man versions of raid zones. It just annoys me to see people leave the game, EQ2 is a damm good MMO but if the game keeps going as it is then you wont have anyone raiding at the top end apart from a few ultra hardcore guilds. </blockquote><p>Well, I always liked the idea of this anyway. Not to make an instance easier but simply to offer an opportunity for smaller Guilds to attempt the same content. The rewards should not be the same of course, but it would be nice to see the zone and the bosses in question. Not sure the reasoning behind it, but I always felt they should provide instance selections for 24 or 12 raid encounters. </p><p>Some great examples of what they have done in past releases is already available. They use multi-instances now for some zones with their difficulties (Poet's Palace, etc.) and they used level scaling with Splitpaw and the City Raids.</p><p>Currently, we raid with less than 12, and will hit lower tier raids with mentored players at least to see the content and have fun.</p></blockquote>Which is exactly what Blizzard are doing with WOWs next expansion apparently. Each raid zone will have a 24 and 12 man version tailored for each and of course with different loot. This makes perfect sense to me, not sure why people are so against it.

Windowlicker
06-17-2008, 08:17 AM
VS is far too difficult for a T2 encounter.  Even if everyone in the raid is doing exactly what they should be, the buggy mob and bad programming wipes the raid over and over.

zormik
06-17-2008, 08:19 AM
<p>Unless you're a top end guild like Confirmed, Validus, Strike, Xanadu, it's harder to find new recruits.  On the other hand it also depends on the nature of the guild.  Validus is a high end avatar killing guild but the atmosphere is so friendly that we hardly loose any members.</p><p>Create a good atmosphere with people who know their game and you'll still be going strong.  If you get frustrated about having to keep on trying to beat an encounter, well these topguilds have to do the same, you don't want to know how many houres we spent on trakanon and tangrin before we killed them.</p>

Noaani
06-17-2008, 08:29 AM
<p>Nexona is perfectly killable, for an organised guild of dedicated players who all know what they are doing, and have no people in their membership that are below par in anything from hand eye co-ordernation to general intelligance.</p><p>If you have even one of those people in your guild, however, this mob become a major headache.</p><p>I have said it may times to many people, Nexona and Phara Dar should have their script swapped, and all mythical updates should be put on Phara Dar. If it was done like this in the beginning, the game would be in a much healthier state now, at least in terms of player population.</p><p>Reguardless of whether a mob is killable or not, if it is causing people to leave the game (as Nexona undeniably is) it is a design flaw in some form.</p><p>Some would say it is a design flaw in that it forces 1/6th of your raid to essentially sit out (a guildie of mine was in oakmyst forrest one day, when I asked her what she was doing, she replied Practising harvesting shinys for Nexona! I can push the "f" button really really fast now!... :-/  ), some would say it is a design flaw to have the second hardest instanced mob in the game at the point that it is, some would say it is a design flaw to have some classes get their mythical without killing it. I say they are all correct, and Nexona is a major screwup that has cost this game far too much.</p>

Noaani
06-17-2008, 08:51 AM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lakland wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>So whats the solution to this? The playerbase is dying and raiding is becoming more and more difficult. I would personally like to see a LOT more emphasis on <b>18man and 12 man raids.</b> I have been reading about the next WOW expansion and I know they cut their raid numbers down to 24 previously and now are taking this one step further with 12man versions of raid zones. It just annoys me to see people leave the game, EQ2 is a damm good MMO but if the game keeps going as it is then you wont have anyone raiding at the top end apart from a few ultra hardcore guilds. </blockquote><p>Well, I always liked the idea of this anyway. Not to make an instance easier but simply to offer an opportunity for smaller Guilds to attempt the same content. The rewards should not be the same of course, but it would be nice to see the zone and the bosses in question. Not sure the reasoning behind it, but I always felt they should provide instance selections for 24 or 12 raid encounters. </p><p>Some great examples of what they have done in past releases is already available. They use multi-instances now for some zones with their difficulties (Poet's Palace, etc.) and they used level scaling with Splitpaw and the City Raids.</p><p>Currently, we raid with less than 12, and will hit lower tier raids with mentored players at least to see the content and have fun.</p></blockquote>Which is exactly what Blizzard are doing with WOWs next expansion apparently. Each raid zone will have a 24 and 12 man version tailored for each and of course with different loot. This makes perfect sense to me, not sure why people are so against it.</blockquote><p>The only issue I see with it is the limitations it would put on scripting.</p><p>In a 4 group raid, it is perfectly viable to have a mob that would require one of each tank to tank parts of a scripted encounter, and each of these tanks needing 2 healers and also requiring 2 chanters to mezz adds. now, if this was a 12 man raid, that would leave 1 spot for DPS. Things would die slowly.</p><p>There are 2 ways around this, either limit the instances script or have a different script for the 12 and 24 man versions.</p><p>If the former, people doing the full version would suffer, as they are essentially against a mob desinged to be fought with 12 people, just with added DPS and HP. This would be fine for entry level raids, but thats about it.</p><p>If the latter, then why use the resourses to script one zone twice, when instead you could script 2 different zones and call them seperate content. Why make a 12 and a 24 man instance of say Protectors Realm when instead they could have made a 24 man instance of it, and used, say, Chelsith as the base of a 12 man raid. Then you have what would be considered 'different' content, as opposed to 2 versions of the same content, nad it cost SoE the same amount of resources.</p><p>Put short, this would be fine for entry level zones (incidently, a zone like protectors Realm would fit nicely with it), but if they made every zone with a 12 and 24 person version, either they spent a LOT of time on scripts that are only getting half used, or they gave those doing the full versions of the raids a half experiance. which is not what the game needs now.</p><p>BTW, I am all for some 12 man raids being put in the game, but would rather see them pushed as 12 man instances rather than raid zones. Its a small but significant difference.</p>

Kizee
06-17-2008, 09:15 AM
5 decent sized guilds that raid folded on Befallen because of these problems. Some of those guilds were around for a long long time./puts on rose colored glassesOh wait I don't see a problem anymore. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Illine
06-17-2008, 09:43 AM
<p>imagine Druushk, you need 4 people clicking on statue.</p><p>in a 24 people raid, it's 17% of your raid which cannot fight</p><p>in a 12 people raid, it's 33% of you raid which cannot fight</p><p>then you have epic X2 adds who pop, they'll become heroic mobs you can mez stun and stiffle?</p><p>some raids where you only have to hit the mob can be made X2, but nexo and Druushk have a script made for 24 people, or at least enough to check everything and 12 is not enough.</p><p>in a 4 group raid you have an MT group, an OT group and 2 dps groups</p><p>in a 2 group raid, there, since there are adds, you need a MT and OT groups, where's the dps group?</p><p>some raids where designed at the begining to exists as X2 or X3 or X4 and some no. plus having your mythical on a X2 raid ... not great ...</p>

Banditman
06-17-2008, 10:04 AM
It's a pretty well documented fact that VP mob difficulty is not properly distributed within the zone, with (arguably) two of the three most difficult mobs coming so early in the zone.  Is this a problem?  Yes, it's a huge problem.  Unfortunately, the only solution is a pretty significant restructuring of the zone.  This is a problem that should have been diagnosed in beta, but was not.  I think testing methodology is the failure here.However, the guilds that fall apart at this point are probably ones that simply aren't willing to do what's necessary to kill those mobs anyway, regardless of whether they are at the beginning of VP or the end.  It definitely takes a very focused, aware and talented raid force to defeat encounters like that.Population is definitely a concern.  I don't think we're quite ready for a server consolidation yet.  A more effective solution would be to close one or two servers and distribute those players across the other servers.  Unfortunately, that's just not an appropriate solution.  Thus, we'll just have to limp along as best we can until a better solution presents itself or until the population on individual servers falls much closer to critical mass.

Odys
06-17-2008, 10:20 AM
On storm raiding guilds are spamming all the time the 70-79 channel to recruit<div>(weird if you consider that a guild search tool exists and that most pople are guilded at 70). </div><div>They break the unspoken agreement between guids saying that you should not try to attract people already guilded. </div><div></div><div>I don't blame them too much since they probably can't play the way they like. </div><div></div><div></div><div>In my opinion they should simply organise alliance raid or disband their guilds and redo one</div><div>larger that would gather the few raiders left.</div>

firza
06-17-2008, 10:38 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite> <blockquote><div></div><div>In my opinion they should simply organise alliance raid or disband their guilds and redo one</div><div>larger that would gather the few raiders left.</div></blockquote><p>its either that or natural selection <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

simpwrx02
06-17-2008, 11:06 AM
<p>Maybee Blackburrow is just this shizznit, but we have 5 or 6 guilds that have cleared VP.  My guild has 0 issues with players being in the guild normally when 1 person leaves we get a replacement within 1 day we never spam and have no recruiment threads that i know of.  </p><p>Drussk and Nex are hard because they are the gatekeepers for mythicals, it just takes a bit of time learnign the encounter then figureing out how your guild can counter the script to win.</p>

Rijacki
06-17-2008, 11:13 AM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont think making raids require less people means making them easier, to me it makes sense if you are having population problems. I take your point about people becoming bored but honestly I dont think SOE helps the situation with how the raids are currently. The way I see it is that if you dont have 24 people online then you should have options, it brings everyone down when people login to raid only to find out people are missing or have left the game. What do you do then? You can have people switch to alts but ultimately that doesnt help, what normally happens is that it turns into a ever increasing problem.We dont have enough to do the raid today, next raid same thing happen, population is poor so there are no new recruits to be had, so more people leave which causes more problem. I've seen it happen to so many guilds over the past few months. 18/12 man raids makes sense in my opinion. Damm SOE copied half the ideas from WOW why not this?</blockquote>You do realise that EQ2 had 2x and 3x raid targets in the game from day 1?  You do realise that EQ2 revamped their 2x City Raids two expansions ago and they were hardly ever used by anyone? The reason they haven't added in more is because of how incredibly under-utilised the previous 2x and 3x encounters have been from day 1 and how under-utilised the specicially created City ones were (even ones which were so easy to get to all you had to do was enter from your city).Oh yeah... SOE would be "copying" from WoW if they added in 2x and 3x content *rolls her eyes*But, I, too, would like to see more 2x and 3x content.. but the rewards would have to be better than the group instances but not as good as the 4x raid targets which really doesn't leave a lot of room for reward value currently.

Yimway
06-17-2008, 11:20 AM
I know on unrest no less than 7 raid guilds no longer exist.  We seem to lose them at a rate of one/month.The key here is, they aren't dissolving and forming new ones, they're just disapearing, and a few members show up in other already existing guilds.   This to me is a clear indication of raid players just vanishing from the game.Looking at the server progression threads at flames, its pretty clear Venril Sathir is the primary guild killer, though some do break on OK as well.What is really lopsided to me, is SoE listed Venril being easier than Overking in their raid progression chart back in beta.  Also looking at how rapid CoD and the first 2 kills in VP come after a guild finailly beats venril, to me is further proof the encounter isn't scaled / positioned well in raid progression path.I'm curious how many guilds call themselves 'casual raid guilds' that have managed to vp flag?  I know when RoK released, there were about 7:1 ration of casual:hardcore guilds on Unrest.  We're down to about 2:1 these days.I certainly agree not every casual guild will or should be able to complete VP before the next expansion, however I believe something is broken when the majority of them will not zone into VP this expansion.  This doesn't reflect well on the game itself, and I think is at the minimum a significant factor of population drops, if not the primary reason.On the flip side, I have to say, some of the mid tier raid guilds folded cause of exoduses of bored end game raid guilds.  Were they had to fill 12+ slots and basically killed a mid tier guild cherry picking replacements.  This is a factor of natural selection, and is always going to happen to some degree.  What i found troubling is new guilds haven't formed out of those that didn't move up, instead we're just slowly dwindling down.

Freliant
06-17-2008, 11:21 AM
<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Drussk and Nex are hard because they are the gatekeepers for mythicals, it just takes a bit of time learnign the encounter then figureing out how your guild can counter the script to win.</p></blockquote><p>This my friend, is grade A mulch. Why not just put Drussk and Nex near the end of the zones and have them be the main updates for the mythicals? You still have to kill them for the mythical, but now, the other mobs are made available to those that can kill them.</p><p>I agree with all the others that have posted that the difficulty of VP is very much inverted, with some of the arguably hardest mobs in the begining and the cake mobs behind them.</p><p>How would you feel if to clear Deathtoll, you had to fight cruor alluvium and the amorphous drake first, and then go through the rest? That is right, for the most part, you would be [Removed for Content] because those 2 mobs are harder than almost all other mobs in deathtoll. That is what is happening in VP...</p>

Spyderbite
06-17-2008, 11:24 AM
Business as usual for the larger raid guilds on my server. Haven't heard a peep about such issues. When things slow down during the summer, we just go out and kill each other till things pick up again. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Jesdyr
06-17-2008, 11:33 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know on unrest no less than 7 raid guilds no longer exist.  We seem to lose them at a rate of one/month.The key here is, they aren't dissolving and forming new ones, they're just disapearing, and a few members show up in other already existing guilds.   This to me is a clear indication of raid players just vanishing from the game.</blockquote>I dont think it is just raids either.. There seems to be less and less calls for RoK instance PUGs lately. I would raid but I cannot raid 3 nights a week during the "normal" times for the server, so I am content with running instances and playing alts. The good news is there is a constant igroup of new players.

interstellarmatter
06-17-2008, 11:33 AM
<p>The cycle of raid guilds collapsing happens just about every year between expansions.  They run out of content and quickly get bored running the same thing over and over.  RoK did a horrible job at the raid zones this time.  So, you see it now at a much faster rate and sooner than previous years.  If they don't get it right in the next expansion, raiding will greatly dimish from the casual part of the game.</p><p>No, x2, x3 isn't the answer.  WoW didn't dream this up.  These size raids have been in EQ2 since the beginning.  They have alway been underutilized and just sat there.  Maybe it was the loot, who knows, but how can you come up with loot that fits between what full size raids and groups want?</p>

Yimway
06-17-2008, 11:37 AM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The cycle of raid guilds collapsing happens just about every year between expansions.  They run out of content and quickly get bored running the same thing over and over.  RoK did a horrible job at the raid zones this time.  So, you see it now at a much faster rate and sooner than previous years.  If they don't get it right in the next expansion, raiding will greatly dimish from the casual part of the game.</p><p>No, x2, x3 isn't the answer.  WoW didn't dream this up.  These size raids have been in EQ2 since the beginning.  They have alway been underutilized and just sat there.  Maybe it was the loot, who knows, but how can you come up with loot that fits between what full size raids and groups want?</p></blockquote>The x2 content was always broken.  Take the city raids an an example.These take 20-70mins to complete and offer at best 2 legendary rewards for 12 people, and 0% chance at a master.Those same 12 people can go run 2 instances in the same time and get 12 chances at legendary and 10% chance at a master.What do you think they'll do?As far as raid guilds collapsing being a normal cycle.  I agree for the top end guilds.  The old axiom, the flame which burns brightest burns the fastest, applies well to them.  However, until RoK there was a fairly normal patern.  They would splinter, disolve, and 2 new guilds would take their place.  One would be top, the other would dwindle down to a mid tier guild.  However, the mid-tier guilds were pretty constant and consistent.   Having been in a casual raid guild since launch, I've watched this happen over and over again, but there USED to be a fair number of mid-tier casual raid guilds that were very consistent and didn't fold with the winds.  To my knowledge, there are 2 maybe 3 of us left.  When there were 3x that number for EoF, KoS, DoF, and orriginal release.  The top 3 guilds repeatedly folded and reformed to new names, etc, but thier were a far greater number of raid players in the casual guilds.   My point was, this isn't the case anymore, a large segment of players has evaporated.

Gwarsh
06-17-2008, 11:56 AM
<p>i like the idea of x2 and x3 raids.  keep the loot legendary but take treasured boxes out of the loot tables.  now you have a decent place to go to get gear that does not outclass x4 raids.  the city raids were underutilized because the loot was rare and when you did get it... was pathetic.  an alternative to having x2 and x3 raids drop real loot would be to have the drops be adornments, not better than what is available from tradeskillers but different, (ie Str adorns for ears)</p><p>some kind of alternative to the meager instances that are out there would be nice.</p>

Odys
06-17-2008, 12:38 PM
Tell me why a 24 people raid should get better items than a 12 people one?<div></div><div>Indeed you could easily make 6 people encounter as hard as raids.</div><div>But in doing so the encounter would be only doable with a specific group setting</div><div>and this would exclude most groups. Wow more or less managed to do challenging</div><div>6 man instances (challenging till raid or faction gear made them easy).</div><div></div><div>That's may be why we don't get hard 6 or 12  man encounters with good rewards. </div><div>I.e there is more flexibility in a 2 man raid setting than in a 6 or 12 one.</div><div></div><div>The other reason is much less honorable, a 24 man raid is more complicated </div><div>to set up. When  was raiding in Wow i was scheduled on all the raids </div><div>but most dps classes were taking turns. I gave up very quickly since i coud not stand </div><div>the idea that a game would constraint my life. </div><div></div><div>From that it follows that a 24 raid is more likely to break and to progress slowly.</div><div></div><div>I did karazhan and grull and the next raiding thing in Wow and i never found it more difficult</div><div>than doing an heroic. But raiding was taking much more time, gather the raid people, sort out which dps</div><div>are going to come (trying to be fair with all) , find in a hurry a pick up reliable healer</div><div>since one healer is not logged on we are 30mn after the raid gathering time ...</div><div></div><div>Add to this the LAG (the complexity of a fight is quadratic in the number of actors) and the fact that i was sometimes not even seing the fight (screen haf taken with 20 health bars) ..</div><div></div><div>I don't get why people should get better reward because they log at precise time </div><div> and follow a military organisation.  You should be rewarded for playing well our character</div><div>and taking risk, it's quite different. </div><div></div><div>The idea that large raids implying a full dedication to the game were the way to keep players </div><div>busy between expansions is to be traced back to eq1 and it's a wrong idea. Very few people can play at regular time</div><div>and even if they can they ma simply don't feel like playing at some raid time. </div><div></div><div></div><div>Any MMO should aim at the following goal, when a plaer log in if he finds some guildmates around they should be able to do something. </div><div></div><div>You can here and there have historical encounters that require a large force</div><div>or even several guilds but it should be exeptionnal. </div><div></div><div></div><div><div></div><div></div></div>

Illine
06-17-2008, 12:47 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The cycle of raid guilds collapsing happens just about every year between expansions.  They run out of content and quickly get bored running the same thing over and over.  RoK did a horrible job at the raid zones this time.  So, you see it now at a much faster rate and sooner than previous years.  If they don't get it right in the next expansion, raiding will greatly dimish from the casual part of the game.</p></blockquote><p>on storms, 2 big raiding guild just disappeared after they finished their mythicals.</p><p>Pandemonium who was THE biggest since launch and then leviathan who was a short living guild but they managed to get good players and did rize quickly.</p><p>so yeah, guilds and people are always leaving, but here it's at a faster rate.</p><p>And true, placing 2 of the 4 hardest dragons at the beginning of VP isn't very wise. many guilds are stuck there trying to kill them, and when it will be done, having no problem finishing VP and getting their mythicals. At some point we'll kill them but yeah for motivation, usually you have a difficulty progression.</p><p>plus when old good members leave, it's hard to find someone as good, usually, on smaller guilds, you find some casual, solo players that don't really know all the potential and usefullness of their class. don't know the use of their spells and what to do in raids. so quality of high lvl guild is decreasing too. because hard core gamers, the one who usually play their charater very well leave the game for others. that's another reason who even by recruting, you can have a hard time.</p>

Yimway
06-17-2008, 12:49 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>I don't get why people should get better reward because they log at precise time </div><div> and follow a military organisation.  You should be rewarded for playing well our character</div><div>and taking risk, it's quite different. </div><div></div><div></div><div><div></div><div></div></div></blockquote>kk, thx, move along please.Your off topic post isn't really useful in this discussion.  Considering this is a raiding concern being raised by raiders about raiding encounters, I don't see how your post has any bearing on the conversation but to troll.I encourage you to make another thread requesting harder heroic content with fabled rewards.  However, I might also urge you to complete RE2 released today before making such suggestion, as perhaps it is already there?

Zehl_Ice-Fire
06-17-2008, 12:55 PM
<cite>firza wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also, the decline of players might/hopefully will stop soon when the hipe over AoC stops and people notice they pay again to beta test a game.</p></blockquote>So you didn't notice the decline in players and raid guilds already collapsing left and right and having trouble getting new people was going on WAY before AoC? I did.  AoC was a bigger hit, population has been steadily going down since RoK. The learn to play argument people always start spouting is ridiculous. I know how to play (I raided as an inquis the last year+, originally an SK), I was in a guild with mostly very good players who also knew how to play, we should not have been stuck for 5 months on VS & Overking spending 5 nights 8-12pm raiding.  I don't raid anymore mostly because that period burned me out. Some of the people I was with went to another guild and we got in VP a few times, we had good people, then a few quit for RL, and it was back for another 2 weeks to try for a VS kill, which we had done flawlessly in the past at times, in fact, the first kill I had on VS was with 3 groups and no bards.

graciaso
06-17-2008, 06:25 PM
<cite>firza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>firza wrote:</cite>I dont agree here at all, Druushk and Nexona are a lot tougher than most of the mobs lower down in VP, where's the logic in that? Raids should get progressively more difficult, you should not have a situation where you have 2 very tough mobs near the entrance of a zone then cake walks through the rest, that to me makes no sense.Thats going off the overall topic though which was that there simply are not the players available anymore for casual guilds to even think about progressing beyond t2 imo. My definintion of a true raid guild would be a guild that has around 30 members, raids for 3/4 hrs a night say 5 times a week. I remember in T6 and even T7 there were 5/6 guilds of this type progressing on content. Atm on my server I can think of 2 actual guilds who have cleared VP with the other 4/5 basically collasping simply because as soon as they lost players they were unable to fill the slots.Of course this all has a water down effect to the casual guilds who are stuck completly with little or no chance to progress.In my opinion SOE needs to rethink the raid part of EQ2 and consider 18 and 12 man raids as if the current trend continues there will be nobody raiding.On the topic of AOC, yep I played it and it was crap. However you cant rely on people simply coming back to EQ2 when there are going to be more games like WAR coming out soon.</blockquote><p>Druushk and Nexona are very killable for organised guilds who take the time and put in the effort to learn them. believe me, we have only killed Nexona last week....it was sooo great. Mythicals should be a victory to receive, not handed over on a silver platter.</p><p>The problem of the player base has nothing to do with so called road blocks, but with peaking populairty of some games, and no new content in others <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>The casual guilds just have been given a big bone, they no long rerquire VS.....</p><p><b><u>18 and 12 man raids is playing with symantics</u></b>.....it will not solve the problem of the dwindling population. Or will you afvocate 8 man raids after you can not get your 12 people together anymore?</p><p>No, you are correct. The future will see the release of many new MMO's. Making this one easier will not call those people back who left for new territories....new content will. </p></blockquote><p> Symantics = Semantics ? It must because Symantics is viral protection .. I think. Either way.. its a complete misuse of the word.  The difference bettween 12 and 18 is value, not contemporary definition. I encourage you to find a dictionary as well as a review of you logic. As reducing the # of people required for a raid would help to ease the difficulty of recruiting from a dwidling population. I don't think the OP offered the idea as a solution to the population issues, because that would make little sense. </p><p>WoW, for better or worse, has found a formula that works. Obviously .. the core game doesn't appeal to most of us (or we'd not be here), but its idiotic to ignore Bizzards remarkable ability to retain playters.  It would be a failure not to borrow from them. Einstien said, the secret of creativity is keeping your sources a secret (or something like).  That doesn't mean we should dumb down EQ2, it means we should adapt as the population necesitates.  Ofcourse .. with the release of AoC (which I tried and totally disliked), we could simply be in a trough of a wave.</p><p>Whether or not this is a solution .. I don't know, but at least the OP's argument is reasonable and objective.   </p>

Oh
06-17-2008, 06:46 PM
<p>There are alot of folks complaining about raid size now, the complaints are more along the line of my class is usless in a raid and they always pick up <insert class> ahead of me. This is primarly because there are currently 24 raid slots and 24 classes. TO ME this is a HUGE MISTAKE on SOE's part. The reason wow can get away with cutting the raid force is because they don't have near as many different classes, so while yes guilds will min/max a raid they can still fit in atleast one of each class so you have alot less whineing. Now as the theory goes having a smaller raid force means it's easier to build a raid for that content. Well this definatly was the case from the old 72 man raids from eq1 to 40 man raids in wow, now 25man raids for wow and 24 for eq2.</p>

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 06:55 PM
Thanks for all the replies, its interesting to read everyones thoughts and opinions.Whilst I agree that balancing 12/24 or 18 man raids would be tough with the scripts needing to be different for each instance, to me it still seems like a logical solution to what seems to me to be a ever increasing problem with the population. I'll be curious how blizzard go about doing two different versions of the same zone.X2 zones in general in EQ2 have been poorly done, silent city for example is completly ppointless. Also why in gods name does that X2 zone in the monk adventure pack continue to have a access quest, thats the reason nobody ever went there.SoE needs to make sure that the raiding in the expansion has a consistent progression. I've never known a expansion which has caused so many people simply to quit the game. My guild were never first to clear zones in previous exapansions, we never got to Wooshi in T7 but still there was progression for us. In t8 it seems to me between the population problems and the actual problems with mobs being way too tough too early is simply frustrating way too many people and causing people to simply quit. What I cannot understand is how SOE cannot see this happening, anyone who logs in on a decent amount can see the problems.

Yimway
06-17-2008, 06:59 PM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote> What I cannot understand is how SOE cannot see this happening, anyone who logs in on a decent amount can see the problems. </blockquote>I'm pretty sure they see it.   The question really is, why have they done so little to address it?

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 07:01 PM
<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are alot of folks complaining about raid size now, the complaints are more along the line of my class is usless in a raid and they always pick up <insert class> ahead of me. This is primarly because there are currently 24 raid slots and 24 classes. TO ME this is a HUGE MISTAKE on SOE's part. The reason wow can get away with cutting the raid force is because they don't have near as many different classes, so while yes guilds will min/max a raid they can still fit in atleast one of each class so you have alot less whineing. Now as the theory goes having a smaller raid force means it's easier to build a raid for that content. Well this definatly was the case from the old 72 man raids from eq1 to 40 man raids in wow, now 25man raids for wow and 24 for eq2.</p></blockquote>Does anyone know the actual reason why blizzard are reducing raid sizes, I have never played WOW so I am in the drak regarding this.

evilgamer
06-17-2008, 07:09 PM
Hey look at the bright side, with so few people to recruit from maybee these raid guild will become less picky about classes and the Sk mythical might actually be discovered on the 4 servers it has yet to be discovered on lol.

simpwrx02
06-17-2008, 07:11 PM
<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Drussk and Nex are hard because they are the gatekeepers for mythicals, it just takes a bit of time learnign the encounter then figureing out how your guild can counter the script to win.</p></blockquote><p>This my friend, is grade A mulch. Why not just put Drussk and Nex near the end of the zones and have them be the main updates for the mythicals? You still have to kill them for the mythical, but now, the other mobs are made available to those that can kill them.</p><p>I agree with all the others that have posted that the difficulty of VP is very much inverted, with some of the arguably hardest mobs in the begining and the cake mobs behind them.</p><p>How would you feel if to clear Deathtoll, you had to fight cruor alluvium and the amorphous drake first, and then go through the rest? That is right, for the most part, you would be [Removed for Content] because those 2 mobs are harder than almost all other mobs in deathtoll. That is what is happening in VP...</p></blockquote><p>I agree it is crap they are so hard and so early on, but seriously the fact they drop the first round of mythicals is why the yare hard, the final mob of VP should hae been the update needed for all mythicals.  I woudl totally support that, however that is not how it was setup and as such I think that with how mythicals are distributed currently that Drussk and Nexona need to remain the current difficulty because, a lto fo guilds have killed them no mythicals probably 40-50 guilds world wide if not more.</p><p>As far as Cruor and the drake in DT when my guild first killed those mobs they were a joke compared to T-nax, and the drake was way easier than Fitz as he constantly bugged, also you coudl avoid the names in DT if you wanted to , not sure how this relates to the current VP.  SOE learned that being able to avoid encounters because they are a bit more difficult was a bad thing and from EoF on each raid zone is structured so you can't just skip names.  However you needed T-nax to finish the Claymore if they made it so you needed the final mob in VP for every class to get mythicals then sure I would agree, however the fact that if you changed it now it woudl trivialize the only 2 semi hard fights in VP when you first learn and beat them.</p>

interstellarmatter
06-17-2008, 07:16 PM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are alot of folks complaining about raid size now, the complaints are more along the line of my class is usless in a raid and they always pick up <insert class> ahead of me. This is primarly because there are currently 24 raid slots and 24 classes. TO ME this is a HUGE MISTAKE on SOE's part. The reason wow can get away with cutting the raid force is because they don't have near as many different classes, so while yes guilds will min/max a raid they can still fit in atleast one of each class so you have alot less whineing. Now as the theory goes having a smaller raid force means it's easier to build a raid for that content. Well this definatly was the case from the old 72 man raids from eq1 to 40 man raids in wow, now 25man raids for wow and 24 for eq2.</p></blockquote>Does anyone know the actual reason why blizzard are reducing raid sizes, I have never played WOW so I am in the drak regarding this.</blockquote><p>They didn't reduce their raid size.  Some of their raid zones have normal and heroic versions.  The normal is a 10 man raid zone - 2 groups.  The heroic is the normal 25 man raid zone.  </p><p>Basically,  it allows you to experience all the raid content with only two groups.  But the gear drops aren't as nice.  Plus, with only 10 people, it's a min/max raid.  You pretty much have to go strictly with certain classes spec'd a certain way.  Where 25 raid zones have more flexability.</p>

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 07:25 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are alot of folks complaining about raid size now, the complaints are more along the line of my class is usless in a raid and they always pick up <insert class> ahead of me. This is primarly because there are currently 24 raid slots and 24 classes. TO ME this is a HUGE MISTAKE on SOE's part. The reason wow can get away with cutting the raid force is because they don't have near as many different classes, so while yes guilds will min/max a raid they can still fit in atleast one of each class so you have alot less whineing. Now as the theory goes having a smaller raid force means it's easier to build a raid for that content. Well this definatly was the case from the old 72 man raids from eq1 to 40 man raids in wow, now 25man raids for wow and 24 for eq2.</p></blockquote>Does anyone know the actual reason why blizzard are reducing raid sizes, I have never played WOW so I am in the drak regarding this.</blockquote><p>They didn't reduce their raid size.  Some of their raid zones have normal and heroic versions.  The normal is a 10 man raid zone - 2 groups.  The heroic is the normal 25 man raid zone.  </p><p>Basically,  it allows you to experience all the raid content with only two groups.  But the gear drops aren't as nice.  Plus, with only 10 people, it's a min/max raid.  You pretty much have to go strictly with certain classes spec'd a certain way.  Where 25 raid zones have more flexability.</p></blockquote>That actually sounds like a good plan, you are forever hearing people talking about content they dont get to see at leats this way people in non hardcore guilds would have a chance to see these zones.It's somewhat crazy in my opinion that you only have 40/50 people on a server who have been past the first few mobs in VP, is that what SOE creates the content for? I am totally for the best players having the best items but at some point you have to look at your player base and make changes accordingly.

evilgamer
06-17-2008, 07:25 PM
<p>I find it a bit funny that some of you in this thread who have argued in favor of the current class balance in reguards to raids are now being forced to choose between taking a "less optimal" class or no one at all.</p><p>To bad all the classes are not balanced in reguards to raids so there is more flexiblity as to its class make up.</p><p>Just a thought.</p>

evilgamer
06-17-2008, 07:28 PM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's somewhat crazy in my opinion that you only have 40/50 people on a server who have been past the first few mobs in VP, is that what SOE creates the content for? I am totally for the <b><u>best players having the best items</u></b> but at some point you have to look at your player base and make changes accordingly.</blockquote><p>They are not necessarily the best players, just the players who are relatively competant, willing to play a desired class and follow a rigid inflexible raiding schedule.</p><p>Just becaue you are in a raiding guild that does end content does not automatically make you the best player.</p>

Sorano
06-17-2008, 09:09 PM
<p>It's motivation more than anything. People are bored running the same zones week in and week out. It always happens eventually, but due to the easier leveling curve in RoK, people reached the end game much sooner, meaning the attrition due to boredom has also set in much earlier.</p><p>We were discussing it last night, and it boils down to not enough diversity in content and lack of community engagement. RoK provided little incentive to group and that has had an effect all the way through. Bring back something like the spire event that engaged the entire server. The watered down event we got with the current LU just does not cut it. I can go through and totally ignore it and won't miss out on much. There is not enough incentive to get involved. SOE should really take a leaf out of the old EQ1 special events. Events like spawning an old T5 mob and making it T8 for a day, with unique T8 loot only available for that one time. Imagine turning Vox into a T8 mob. Put a unique item on her that will only drop the one time she is killed while a T8 mob. It doesn't have to be huge amounts of loot. Something more ambitious would be making Splitpaw T8 again for a week, and upgrading the loot to reflect it. You can guarantee you will have players log in to try it out. You could even make the entire Splitpaw instance T8, from solo, to group, to raid. Content for everyone.</p><p>It's about changing things up and SOE just don't do enough of it. Unfortunately I think it points to a chronically under resourced development team more than anything.</p>

wolfIII
06-17-2008, 09:22 PM
<p>The major problem since KoS is that there is too much time between expansions.  When you have reached the level cap, have all your AA's and are sick of the instances there is no reason to play except to raid.</p><p>If you want to play more than that, you either roll an alt, kill the same 50,000 mobs, do the same 1000 quests and then be bored again or you can just quit and start a toon in a different game and get a different experience.</p><p>SOE needs to either break new expansions sooner or provide meaningful quest lines, like the epic weapon line, that will give players an incentive to play above and beyond the current boring content.  RE is cool but in a cpl weeks it wont keep much interest.  As the expansion drags out more players will leave, especially the high end players, because they will get bored and burned out first.</p>

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 09:22 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It's motivation more than anything. People are bored running the same zones week in and week out. It always happens eventually, but due to the easier leveling curve in RoK, people reached the end game much sooner, meaning the attrition due to boredom has also set in much earlier.</p></blockquote>I dont quite agree its down to people leveling too fast, I think the actual raid structures have completly compounded the whole boredom factor, so SOE has brought this on themselves to an extent. I would LOVE to hear the developer in charge of raiding gives his comments regarding this whole issue.As for diversity I agree there completly. There needs to be far far far more progression paths for people so you are not bored once you hit the cap. I am very curious to see what SOE do with the next expansion, if it doesnt have any level cap then both item and character progression best be good, either through a huge amount of AAs or something else.

TwistedFaith
06-17-2008, 09:25 PM
<cite>wolfIII wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you want to play more than that, you either roll an alt, kill the same 50,000 mobs, do the same 1000 quests and then be bored again or you can just quit and start a toon in a different game and get a different experience.</p></blockquote>This is what scares me when I read people asking for yet another new race or new starter city. It boggles the mind, so much effort to create content that is blown through in a few days max, then its back to the same quests as before. Great for SOE as they get people running through old content again which means they play/pay longer but so bad for people who have been playing the game since release.

Illine
06-18-2008, 03:43 AM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It's motivation more than anything. People are bored running the same zones week in and week out. It always happens eventually, but due to the easier leveling curve in RoK, people reached the end game much sooner, meaning the attrition due to boredom has also set in much earlier.</p></blockquote>I dont quite agree its down to people leveling too fast, I think the actual raid structures have completly compounded the whole boredom factor, so SOE has brought this on themselves to an extent. I would LOVE to hear the developer in charge of raiding gives his comments regarding this whole issue.As for diversity I agree there completly. There needs to be far far far more progression paths for people so you are not bored once you hit the cap. I am very curious to see what SOE do with the next expansion, if it doesnt have any level cap then both item and character progression best be good, either through a huge amount of AAs or something else. </blockquote>the fast levelling coupled with low high end content with not many dongeons/instances and not as many high level epic quests, I don't know make people bored faster.I came back i january and it's been a while I finnished the quest now I only raid with my main. The only things I haven't done are quests is sebillis because I can't find a group to go there.raid is the same thing, except for PR, Kor Sha and VP you don't have big instances with many named.Thuuga is boring, 45 min raid for 1 drop, same for the droag, only one mob, Venril same, one mob, CoD one moband Venril has been a BIG problem for motivation, same for Druushk and Nexona, they are the keeper of mythicals but the slayers of motivation. First expension I've spend so much time on each mobs ... 1 month on Druushk, certainly one or more on Nexona ... it kills you. but SOE wanted that, hope they enjoy it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

firza
06-18-2008, 04:22 AM
<cite>Earar wrote:</cite><blockquote>and Venril has been a BIG problem for motivation, same for Druushk and Nexona, they are the keeper of mythicals but the slayers of motivation. First expension I've spend so much time on each mobs ... 1 month on Druushk, certainly one or more on Nexona ... it kills you. but SOE wanted that, hope they enjoy it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Actually, many people wanted that. We hope you enjoy it as much as we do<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>My guild has killed Nexona for the first time last week.....was one of the better MMO moments i assure you. Pitty that the rest of VP (except for last 2 nameds) does not offer the same challange.</p><p>My epic came from a waaaay to easy mob. Felt like steeling mine, instead of earning it like those that came from Nexona.</p>

Illine
06-18-2008, 07:45 AM
<p>I agree with you. when we killed Druushk it was a great moment and I guess it will be the same for Nexona.</p><p>because when you're stuck for a month on a mob, it's a release when you kill it.</p><p>for me the problem is not the mob difficulty, the problem is its place in VP and that you have 2 really hard mobs who keep the mythicals and then crappy dragons. they should have done another way, a difficulty progression and mythical given a bit farther in VP. or just make the first dragons only validate ONE class mythical weapon. I don't know, but the loss of players is really hard and not being able to progress because of the lack of people and the difficulty of those mobs ... it demotivates the middle guilds.</p><p>I'm not in a HC guild but we raid 5 nights per week but you need at least to be there for 2 raids a week so we just can't make a whole week on nexona, because at least 2 days we'll have a crappy raid compo and people are getting tired that's all.</p><p>I don't want them to be nerfed, and I don't really care about my mythical, it's crappy :p I'm a coercer, but I want to progress before my motivation is so low that I will just stop </p><p>and summer won't help</p>

Belaythien
06-18-2008, 09:08 AM
My experience is exactly the same as that of the OP. On my server raid communities/guilds are dissolving left and right. The vast majority is around T2. There are at most 2 raids capable of getting the mythical weapons on my server.Many players are quitting because of the frustration caused by raid progress or the lack thereof. Whenever you slowly progress, SOE destroys all progress by adjusting difficulty for hardcore raiders or by "fixing" mobs. Of course people will leave if there is no progress. It's no fun to fight the same mob ever again.Sure the situation is great for those few raids that can actually get to VP and beat it, as they always get new challenges. However this means that hordes of casual and semi-hardcore players, that don't have time to raid 5-7 days a week, are leaving. SOE does not see this or does not want to acknowledge it. To some extent they've made the same mistakes as they had done in EoF.In the last few months one T2 raidcom after the other is breaking apart due to frustration that comes with lack of progress and the following lack of players. This is what is killing EQ2 together with the lack of new innovative content, in my opionion.

Levatino
06-18-2008, 10:41 AM
evilgamer said it already it might open up doors for classes which weren't frequently picked for raids..

Morgane
06-18-2008, 10:55 AM
I always notice a decline in server population (at least on Everfrost) during the summer months. Add to that the release of AoC in May and that might be making a dent in EQII's population for a few months. It's a good MMO, one of the best out there IMHO, and most everyone comes back at some point. Let the newness of AoC wear off and the busy, family-oriented summer season go by and I imagine things will improve.

Yimway
06-18-2008, 11:04 AM
Honestly, we're bashing our heads in on Venril largely due to factors we can not control.Clicking statues sometimes bugs and we get the adds.  Its rare, but when you try 20 times in a night, seems about one of those tries it happens.The real issue is lag and/or someone going LD.  I'm not a big fan of encounters that can't have enough margin for latency.  Take a raid in there with 3 people on satelite, and one of those 3 being a group nox cure class.  The results are not pretty.  The fight takes us roughly 16-20 mins to complete, and if one person lags or ld's, all 24 pay the price.  And man do I feel bad for the poor soul that gets stuck clicking statues for 3 hours straight as we deal with these other issues.I suppose I could just kick anyone from raid with a ping timer over 300, but thats not really what I'm about.Oh, and just on a side, fix the OK fight.  About 1 in 15 pulls, we'll get a blob that spawns that can not be engaged, and thats a scripted wipe. Its not every pull, but I can't begin to describe how frustrating it is to get everything else going right, to then fail to a script bug.

Morgane
06-18-2008, 11:11 AM
<cite>Lakland wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, I always liked the idea of this anyway. Not to make an instance easier but simply to offer an opportunity for smaller Guilds to attempt the same content. The rewards should not be the same of course, but it would be nice to see the zone and the bosses in question. Not sure the reasoning behind it, but I always felt they should provide instance selections for 24 or 12 raid encounters. </p></blockquote><p>Agree. I was in a guild that had to finally give up on doing any raids because we could not muster up enough people. Getting 24 people together for a raid in a small mom & pop guild is like herding cats... it's virtually impossible.  Our higher level toons eventually found an awesome, larger raiding guild and we've been progressing our mains that way. In the end, our goal of experiencing end-game content is happening but to make it happen we had to leave the smaller guild and be absorbed by a larger one. This (IMO) leaves most smaller guilds with few options as far as raiding goes, which kinda sucks. </p>

jadsded
06-18-2008, 11:27 AM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It's motivation more than anything. People are bored running the same zones week in and week out. It always happens eventually, but due to the easier leveling curve in RoK, people reached the end game much sooner, meaning the attrition due to boredom has also set in much earlier.</p></blockquote><span style="color: #990000;"><i><b>I dont quite agree its down to people leveling too fast,</b></i></span> I think the actual raid structures have completly compounded the whole boredom factor, so SOE has brought this on themselves to an extent. I would LOVE to hear the developer in charge of raiding gives his comments regarding this whole issue.As for diversity I agree there completly. There needs to be far far far more progression paths for people so you are not bored once you hit the cap. I am very curious to see what SOE do with the next expansion, if it doesnt have any level cap then both item and character progression best be good, either through a huge amount of AAs or something else. </blockquote>I'm not a raider, the character that is now my main wasn't even 70 when RoK came out, but I have to say that I am bored, and have been for a while.  While I'm sure much of what you mentioned is true, the fact that I as someone who logs in 2-3 times per week, is bored with the game this early into an expansion is a HUGE problem.  In every previous expansion I was never able to "catch up."  This one I had everything I wanted (except a CC) by May?  Leveling was way too faxt.

RanmaBoyType
06-18-2008, 12:55 PM
<p>I dont like druushk and nexona.  Our raid force has still to get either of these mobs past the 95% marker <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />  For everyone who says "once you beat it, its much easier" you are correct, because once you beat them, a good portion of your raid gets mythicals, and you begin to get the VP armor sets, but UNTIL you beat them you are left with the craptastic gear you were awarded from t1-t3 and if you are lucky some good drops from SoH (big f-you to dsomni and master p for your lack of dropping my bard loot..........)</p><p>Sure, "other raid guilds had to do it, and did" yup, and alot of them did it when druushk and nexona were not such a pita.  i can only imagine how much easier it is to kill those mobs with a full raid of mythicals and VP armor.  i would venture the number of guild who have since the change been able to kill druushk and nexona to be extremely small (who have not already been past them).</p><p>Our raid force isnt hard core. we dont have a strict raiding schedule, and i dont think we ever have the same raid set up whenever we do raids, and that is what I see our downfall is on these encounters.  If you do not have your mythicals you NEED the perfect raid force, you need the players on top of the ball game.  There is no picking up the slack, one person fails the raid force fails.  Once you pass these and start getting the better gear/weapons recovering from slack is MUCH easier.</p><p>Now onto a different topic - the boredom factor.  My favorite expansion in eq1 was the Lost Dungeons of Norrath.  Yup, pretty monotonous, i mean you did one dungeon you did them all, BUT i never once got bored.  I think the reason for that is you had something to strive for.  you were awarded the faction/points (i honestly dont remember what it was called that you were awarded) and you needed to reach so many to be able to purchase the adornments for your items.  i loved it.  It gave you something to shoot for, and after every finish you were ALWAYS awarded this faction/point system.  Compare it to now where i can put a group together, run COA and get wood from every mob, or the same [Removed for Content] legendary that gets nothing but transmuted, and then have to random to the group to see who was awarded the "powder"</p><p>Awarding people "something to shoot for" for their time, IMO will keep them interested.  Dropping the same lame wood chests will not.</p>

Meinen
06-18-2008, 01:51 PM
<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>*snip*</p><p>Now onto a different topic - the boredom factor.  My favorite expansion in eq1 was the Lost Dungeons of Norrath.  Yup, pretty monotonous, i mean you did one dungeon you did them all, BUT i never once got bored.  I think the reason for that is you had something to strive for.  you were awarded the faction/points (i honestly dont remember what it was called that you were awarded) and you needed to reach so many to be able to purchase the adornments for your items.  i loved it.  It gave you something to shoot for, and after every finish you were ALWAYS awarded this faction/point system.  Compare it to now where i can put a group together, run COA and get wood from every mob, or the same [Removed for Content] legendary that gets nothing but transmuted, and then have to random to the group to see who was awarded the "powder"</p><p>Awarding people "something to shoot for" for their time, IMO will keep them interested.  Dropping the same lame wood chests will not.</p></blockquote><p>The recruiting pool for raid guilds is horrible, but its been this way for a bit now. It should recover some, since AoC isn't that great and i think a lot of the raiders playing it will get bored pretty fast. </p><p>LDoN's were awesome, not only did it give you some really nice augmentations, but certain classes could buy a unique spell only available through LDoN's. Also, you could start doing them at lvl 20. That would alleviate so much of the boredom for lvling alts.</p>

bryldan
06-18-2008, 02:16 PM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>firza wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If raid guilds disband because they can not pass Druushk or Nexona it has nothing to do with those mobs....and everything with the organisation and structure of the raid guilds mentioned.</p><p>Also it might be a good idea to make a definition of what you call a raid guild.</p><p>Also, the decline of players might/hopefully will stop soon when the hipe over AoC stops and people notice they pay again to beta test a game.</p></blockquote>I dont agree here at all, Druushk and Nexona are a lot tougher than most of the mobs lower down in VP, where's the logic in that? Raids should get progressively more difficult, you should not have a situation where you have 2 very tough mobs near the entrance of a zone then cake walks through the rest, that to me makes no sense.Thats going off the overall topic though which was that there simply are not the players available anymore for casual guilds to even think about progressing beyond t2 imo. My definintion of a true raid guild would be a guild that has around 30 members, raids for 3/4 hrs a night say 5 times a week. I remember in T6 and even T7 there were 5/6 guilds of this type progressing on content. Atm on my server I can think of 2 actual guilds who have cleared VP with the other 4/5 basically collasping simply because as soon as they lost players they were unable to fill the slots.Of course this all has a water down effect to the casual guilds who are stuck completly with little or no chance to progress.In my opinion SOE needs to rethink the raid part of EQ2 and consider 18 and 12 man raids as if the current trend continues there will be nobody raiding.On the topic of AOC, yep I played it and it was crap. However you cant rely on people simply coming back to EQ2 when there are going to be more games like WAR coming out soon. </blockquote>Honestly I do NOT see why ppl have such a problem on druushk. IMHO he was easier than VS the guild i am in did him on the 17th pull which it took vs a lot more than that. We are currently on Nex I think we have 25ish pulls on her maybe a few more but we are getting very close to beating her. We are a guild like you described that only raids 4-5 hrs a night 4 nights a week. (we tried sat raids for a few weeks but they did not quite pan out with ppl)As for the op topic. A lot of guilds lost ppl due to AoC at least from what I gathered. I am sure some of them left because of the frustration of road blocks and stuff not really sure since it really did not happen to the guild that I am in. We personally only lost 3 or 4 ppl due to AoC and gained a few from the disbanding guilds on our server. We were sorta short when AoC hit on certain classes so we filled those roles. We are even seeing a couple of those that left for AoC coming back because the game is not really panning out. WaR does not come out until the end of the year around that time eq2 will be having there next expansion and if it is good they will most likely stay due to friends and all that. A lot hinges on this next expansion of soe's. Myself included because I too am starting to get bored with the whole game myself and if it does not improve I will be playing WaR. It is not due to the road blocks but just a lot of the structure the game took with RoK that I did not like one bit. I personally HATE soloing especially since my main is a troub and rok made me solo. If the put in another lvl increase i think I will be trying WAR I just simply do not have the stomach to lvl again especially if it is solo lvling.

Soldancer
06-18-2008, 02:26 PM
Easy solution without nerfing encounters: Remove the doors so that players can clear the wings in any order.

bryldan
06-18-2008, 02:32 PM
<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Easy solution without nerfing encounters: Remove the doors from the second and third wing so that players can clear the wings in any order. </blockquote>Honesty that defeats the purpose of both Nex and druushk. They guard the upper floor (mythicals). I wouldnt mind as much if they moved ALL mythical updates to those two mobs then and most of the patterns. And this is coming from someone who is NOT past the 1st floor.

Kizee
06-18-2008, 02:40 PM
<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Easy solution without nerfing encounters: Remove the doors so that players can clear the wings in any order.</blockquote><p>If SoE did that then they would need to put ALL mythical updates on the hardest dragon in zone which would probally be Dru or Nex.</p><p>Yes, the second and third wings of VP are that much of a joke.</p>

Leovinus
06-18-2008, 03:55 PM
Honestly, I don't understand the mentality that went into the raiding this expansion.  Granted, I didn't get to raid EoF much, as I wasn't playing in that time period, but I did raid every other expansion fairly heavily.It just seems that SoE went overboard with the adding of complications to encounters this tier, in addition to keeping the mobs hitting really hard and being much higher level.  I don't mind some new stuff, but seriously.  I'm all for difficulty, but the ramp doesn't need to keep getting steeper.  As far as I know (aka, possibly outside of some EH encounters, DMP, TNT, and what's his face at the end of FTH) there haven't been any encounters with even remotely this level of overcomplexity.  Much of the hardcore crowd looks back to the days of T5 raiding as the glory days (which, by the way, were pretty straightforward, maybe some adds on a timer, maybe an aoe), and they also laud the complexity of some new encounters while complaining it's not hard enough...I dunno, I think the suggestion of removing the door locks in VP is a damned good one.  Would at least give some of the guilds who are banging their heads on the Nex and Dru encounters something else to look forward to in that zone.  Also give access to some set pieces, which would be nice.  Seriously, you didn't have to beat the hardest encounters in the top tier zone in EoF or KoS to get (some of) those set pieces, why did they change it here?  And those of you who really want to be all up on your elitist pedestals can call us all carebears or put notes in your paperdolls that you got em before the change go right ahead, it's no skin off my nose(though many of you got them with set pieces and other vp gear that ended up upgraded, seeing as nex and druushk haven't always been like this, there's a very small percentage of the raid guild population that has beaten nex and dru for the first time since the changes).  Not exactly sure how the rest of us peons getting our mythicals in a different order is really going to affect you anyway.I'm getting a little hotheaded now, so I'll just end it there.

Soldancer
06-18-2008, 03:58 PM
<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Easy solution without nerfing encounters: Remove the doors so that players can clear the wings in any order.</blockquote><p>If SoE did that then they would need to put ALL mythical updates on the hardest dragon in zone which would probally be Dru or Nex.</p><p>Yes, the second and third wings of VP are that much of a joke.</p></blockquote> True, they are mostly joke easy. Wouldn't it be better to make all the other mobs tougher and Nex/Druushk a bit easier? Mythical update could be moved to Trak. Anything is better than the current situation which brings so much players to quit.

le Rêveur
06-19-2008, 12:33 PM
Just to add few informations about the raid guilds collapsing due to Nexona, on storms, Leviathan, the guild GMs one week ago defined as the top 1 raiding guild of the server (which they werent but nevermind ^^) disbanded because of a Nexona fight. Even with full mythical guilds this encounter is not trivial. Same applies for Druushk even if i think he is a way more easier fight (we killed him 5 times already, but still wiping on Nexona), if you dont have a monk or bruiser in your raid, he is way harder, aint it stupid to have a mob OS a 20k hp MT when the only person you can have getting mob back is a swash who gets destroyed very fast, since offtank is busy elsewhere. That's not difficulty here, that's randomness... and poor encounter design... the only difficulty here is autoattack dps of the mob... reminds me of aow back in eq1 + adds and ae fear.

drasklin
06-19-2008, 02:35 PM
<p>My guild is not "hard core" by any means.  We have a lot of couples playing and don't have strict attendence policies.  Honestly, I haven't seen the difficulty in Druushk or nexana.  We always 1 pull Druushk and usually 1 pull Nexana.  Nex is challenging but not overly difficult.</p><p>I love the raiding in this expansion and think SOE put a lot of thought into it.  i firmly believe tho that a guild needs to learn to deal with VS tho and learn to work as a team to make VP easier.</p>

Noaani
06-19-2008, 04:01 PM
<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Easy solution without nerfing encounters: Remove the doors so that players can clear the wings in any order.</blockquote><p>If SoE did that then they would need to put ALL mythical updates on the hardest dragon in zone which would probally be Dru or Nex.</p><p>Yes, the second and third wings of VP are that much of a joke.</p></blockquote><p>I still say switch the scripts of Nexona and Phara Dar, then put all epic updates on Phara Dar.</p><p>That way, a guild that has yet to totally claer VP has no mythicals, but they have access to all VP set pieces except for BP and pants, as well as 90% of the VP loot table.</p><p>What this would do is give these guilds a means of getting better gear while working towards beating the new Phara Dar, as the worst thing is a raid guild is banging your head against a mob 3 times a week for 3 hours, knowing the strat but simply having bad luck each pull, not getting any worthwhile gear as the mob you are fighting is the third in a zone of 11, and every zone below it drops loot that everyone already has or has better.</p><p>Thats how it is for guilds that are unable to kill Nexona or Druushk. They have nothing else to do on raid nights, and no other real means of getting better equipped other than beating these mobs and running SoH.</p>

Noaani
06-19-2008, 04:06 PM
<cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>evilgamer said it already it might open up doors for classes which weren't frequently picked for raids..</blockquote><p>Even if this was true, why would it be a good thing?</p><p>Lets say for a minute that there are classes that the majority of raid guilds will not take (this is not true, there are classes that the majority of top end raid guilds will not take, but they are not the only ones clearing VP).</p><p>So, you play an SK, and finally get an invite to a raiding guild. Great, problem is, the guild is now sucking because they lost a lot of players. Woot! you got a spot in a collapsing raid!</p><p>This is more likely to turn people away from raiding even faster than they already are, as when your a new player to an existing guild, if you find yourself dieing 15+ times a night, 4 nights a week, you don't tend to enjoy it much.</p><p>Chances are, if there is a guild out there that goes from strictly not recruiting specific classes to all of a sudden accepting them, they are in a stat of panic, and they are not a guild you would want to be in anyway.</p><p>Incidently, I have been in 2 top end raid guilds, and 5 almost top end raid guild, and in that time I have not seen any player turned away because of their class. I have seen SKs, wardens, monks, bruisers, wizards, warlock, swashbucklers and several other classes turned away because the player sucked, I have also seen every class get accepted to guilds.</p><p>I have, however, been in 1 guild that absolutly refused to allow frogloks in, reguardless of the player or class.</p>

Slapfish
06-20-2008, 01:52 PM
<p>I don't know. From my experiences we've lost a lot more people to other games. Maybe they are leaving for other games because they are frustrated with raid content, but it seems to be that people just like trying out new things.  The last two guilds I've been in both fell apart when new games were released, the first to Vanguard and the second to Age of Conan. The guild I'm in right now is still managing to fill a raid, but they have lost some key classes to AoC and we are having some trouble with some content. Also, some of the new members are not as experienced at raiding (like me) and not as well equipped as some of the people they lost.  It's been tough. </p><p>Guilds in general seems to be going in a new direction with many people forming guild groups outside the game and moving en mass from game to game.  I know that's been around for a while, but I think it's happening more and more.  </p>

evilgamer
06-20-2008, 02:15 PM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>evilgamer said it already it might open up doors for classes which weren't frequently picked for raids..</blockquote><p>Even if this was true, why would it be a good thing?</p><p>Lets say for a minute that there are classes that the majority of raid guilds will not take (this is not true, there are classes that the majority of top end raid guilds will not take, but they are not the only ones clearing VP).</p><p>So, you play an SK, and finally get an invite to a raiding guild. Great, problem is, the guild is now sucking because they lost a lot of players. Woot! you got a spot in a collapsing raid!</p><p>This is more likely to turn people away from raiding even faster than they already are, as when your a new player to an existing guild, if you find yourself dieing 15+ times a night, 4 nights a week, you don't tend to enjoy it much.</p><p>Chances are, if there is a guild out there that goes from strictly not recruiting specific classes to all of a sudden accepting them, they are in a stat of panic, and they are not a guild you would want to be in anyway.</p><p>Incidently, I have been in 2 top end raid guilds, and 5 almost top end raid guild, and in that time I have not seen any player turned away because of their class. I have seen SKs, wardens, monks, bruisers, wizards, warlock, swashbucklers and several other classes turned away because the player sucked, I have also seen every class get accepted to guilds.</p><p>I have, however, been in 1 guild that absolutly refused to allow frogloks in, reguardless of the player or class</p></blockquote><p>So let me get this straight.  You claim that the classes are balanced in reguards to raiding but you freely admit alot of guilds completely exclude certain classes.</p><p>Which can only mean 2 things:</p><p>1) The class really does not offer enough to justify giving it a slot on a raid.  </p><p>2) People in that guild are just prejudiced against that particular class.  But that leads one to ask why are they prejudiced against any particular class at all.  Which leads us back to point number 1, the class doesnt offer anything to a raid that another class cant do better.</p><p>I see this as a good thing.  If a guild that previously would never look at a SK applicant, but now would because of a lack of guardians and paladins, I think this is good development for the game.</p><p>This may actually force the raiding community to look at class raid balance instead of just arguing for improvments to the holy trinity of guardian, bard and enchanter.</p>

Thunderthyze
06-20-2008, 02:58 PM
<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight.  You claim that the classes are balanced in reguards to raiding but you freely admit alot of guilds completely exclude certain classes. <p>Which can only mean 2 things:</p><p>1) The class really does not offer enough to justify giving it a slot on a raid.  </p><p>2) People in that guild are just prejudiced against that particular class.  But that leads one to ask why are they prejudiced against any particular class at all.  Which leads us back to point number 1, the class doesnt offer anything to a raid that another class cant do better.</p><p>I see this as a good thing.  If a guild that previously would never look at a SK applicant, but now would because of a lack of guardians and paladins, I think this is good development for the game.</p><p>This may actually force the raiding community to look at class raid balance instead of just arguing for improvments to the holy trinity of guardian, bard and enchanter.</p></blockquote>Actually you are wrong. There are 24 slots in a raid and 24 classes. HOWEVER you may need more than one of a particular class (eg high dps or extra healing). Therefore there will HAVE to be some classes omitted. It just so happens that nine times out of ten the first class to be dropped tends to be the same one each time. Having said that, I've NEVER seen a raid go with fewer than 24 members when there were still players waiting for a slot. Insofar as your comment is concerned about prejudice I would tend to agree. More often than not however that prejudice is not bred from experience but rather reading forum threads like these.

Killerbee3000
06-20-2008, 03:26 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight.  You claim that the classes are balanced in reguards to raiding but you freely admit alot of guilds completely exclude certain classes. <p>Which can only mean 2 things:</p><p>1) The class really does not offer enough to justify giving it a slot on a raid.  </p><p>2) People in that guild are just prejudiced against that particular class.  But that leads one to ask why are they prejudiced against any particular class at all.  Which leads us back to point number 1, the class doesnt offer anything to a raid that another class cant do better.</p><p>I see this as a good thing.  If a guild that previously would never look at a SK applicant, but now would because of a lack of guardians and paladins, I think this is good development for the game.</p><p>This may actually force the raiding community to look at class raid balance instead of just arguing for improvments to the holy trinity of guardian, bard and enchanter.</p></blockquote>Actually you are wrong. There are 24 slots in a raid and 24 classes. HOWEVER you may need more than one of a particular class (eg high dps or extra healing). Therefore there will HAVE to be some classes omitted. It just so happens that nine times out of ten the first class to be dropped tends to be the same one each time. Having said that, I've NEVER seen a raid go with fewer than 24 members when there were still players waiting for a slot. Insofar as your comment is concerned about prejudice I would tend to agree. More often than not however that prejudice is not bred from experience but rather reading forum threads like these.</blockquote>its the good old min / maxing, you need a certain number and type of tanks, healers and utility, the rest of the spots are not handed out to any class, but to the ones doing the most dps, the faster the mob dies the better. nothing to do with prejudice, just with wanting to go to bed earlier because 2nd wing of vp is so boring.

evilgamer
06-20-2008, 03:44 PM
<cite>Killerbee3000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight.  You claim that the classes are balanced in reguards to raiding but you freely admit alot of guilds completely exclude certain classes. <p>Which can only mean 2 things:</p><p>1) The class really does not offer enough to justify giving it a slot on a raid.  </p><p>2) People in that guild are just prejudiced against that particular class.  But that leads one to ask why are they prejudiced against any particular class at all.  Which leads us back to point number 1, the class doesnt offer anything to a raid that another class cant do better.</p><p>I see this as a good thing.  If a guild that previously would never look at a SK applicant, but now would because of a lack of guardians and paladins, I think this is good development for the game.</p><p>This may actually force the raiding community to look at class raid balance instead of just arguing for improvments to the holy trinity of guardian, bard and enchanter.</p></blockquote>Actually you are wrong. There are 24 slots in a raid and 24 classes. HOWEVER you may need more than one of a particular class (eg high dps or extra healing). Therefore there will HAVE to be some classes omitted. It just so happens that nine times out of ten the first class to be dropped tends to be the same one each time. Having said that, I've NEVER seen a raid go with fewer than 24 members when there were still players waiting for a slot. Insofar as your comment is concerned about prejudice I would tend to agree. More often than not however that prejudice is not bred from experience but rather reading forum threads like these.</blockquote>its the good old min / maxing, you need a certain number and type of tanks, healers and utility, the rest of the spots are not handed out to any class, but to the ones doing the most dps, the faster the mob dies the better. nothing to do with prejudice, just with wanting to go to bed earlier because 2nd wing of vp is so boring.</blockquote><p>Thanks for making my point for me.  You basicaly just re-affirmed what I said.  If you min-max, some classes just do not offer enough to a raid to justify giving them a raid slot.  The classes are not balance in reguards to raids.</p>

evilgamer
06-20-2008, 03:46 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight.  You claim that the classes are balanced in reguards to raiding but you freely admit alot of guilds completely exclude certain classes. <p>Which can only mean 2 things:</p><p>1) The class really does not offer enough to justify giving it a slot on a raid.  </p><p>2) People in that guild are just prejudiced against that particular class.  But that leads one to ask why are they prejudiced against any particular class at all.  Which leads us back to point number 1, the class doesnt offer anything to a raid that another class cant do better.</p><p>I see this as a good thing.  If a guild that previously would never look at a SK applicant, but now would because of a lack of guardians and paladins, I think this is good development for the game.</p><p>This may actually force the raiding community to look at class raid balance instead of just arguing for improvments to the holy trinity of guardian, bard and enchanter.</p></blockquote>Actually you are wrong. There are 24 slots in a raid and 24 classes. HOWEVER you may need more than one of a particular class (eg high dps or extra healing). Therefore there will HAVE to be some classes omitted. <b><u>It just so happens that nine times out of ten the first class to be dropped tends to be the same one each time.</u></b> Having said that, I've NEVER seen a raid go with fewer than 24 members when there were still players waiting for a slot. Insofar as your comment is concerned about prejudice I would tend to agree. More often than not however that prejudice is not bred from experience but rather reading forum threads like these.</blockquote><p> 9 out of 10 times isnt a numerical co-incidence.</p><p>It happens for a reason.</p><p>That class does not offer much to a raid.</p>

Banditman
06-20-2008, 04:01 PM
As the raid leader for my guild, I'm the one responsible for saying who plays and who sits.  We have anywhere from 1 to 5 people on any given night who simply are not going to get to raid.Let me ASSURE you that my choices are based almost entirely on the ability of the person sitting behind the keys than the class they chose to play.Yes, I have to consider the encounter.  Do I need an extra poison cure?  A lot of off tanking?  More power regen?  These are important questions to consider.  However, in the end, the person behind the keyboard makes a HUGE, MASSIVE difference.I just laugh when the so called "top end" guilds refuse to guild certain classes.  It just means that the best players in that particular class will be available to my guild.  I love that.

Yimway
06-20-2008, 04:17 PM
<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>As the raid leader for my guild, I'm the one responsible for saying who plays and who sits.  We have anywhere from 1 to 5 people on any given night who simply are not going to get to raid.Let me ASSURE you that my choices are based almost entirely on the ability of the person sitting behind the keys than the class they chose to play.Yes, I have to consider the encounter.  Do I need an extra poison cure?  A lot of off tanking?  More power regen?  These are important questions to consider.  However, in the end, the person behind the keyboard makes a HUGE, MASSIVE difference.I just laugh when the so called "top end" guilds refuse to guild certain classes.  It just means that the best players in that particular class will be available to my guild.  I love that.</blockquote>And when you have 30 nearly equally awesome players?Don't you find a pattern in what classes are asked to sit?I have stated this dozens of times, but situational classes need aa spec's that they can come as a massive buffing classes so that a crusader or a brawler could come offering as good as a buff build as a dirge or troub offers your dps groups.  Allows them to remain being a mirror spec away from a tanking config.  I don't feel anything short of this will change the opinion on the class.  Atleast when you have the luxury of picking the classes you want knowing every players is great.

eqaddict101
06-20-2008, 04:24 PM
I'm in a smallish guild with couples mostly and only one full group of lvl 80s .. Although we do that guildies who will be lvling to 80 in the next few months the most we could muster up atm is X2 or X3 with another guild .. I would LOVE to see some Instanced X2 and X3 content.. lol Even if ya went and made EoF into X2 and X3 that would be awesome since the top raid guilds are mostly done with that ( insert laughter from high end raiders who say they can already X2 a EoF raid) Well as very very casual players we can't X2 a EoF raid but I know we would love to do them and see the places we have  not been...  Also ( insert more laughter here from people with no clue) I'm playing on Dial-up, because  where I live thats the only option. So when I do get into a X4 raid (pick up raid) I lag something awefull I'm talking going from 400 up to 6000 ping every time the mobs were pulled with the very lowest settings and all names and particle effects off.. I have tried and tried to find out why this happins but I'm thinking its just the nature of tuns of info trying to go thru itty bitty phone lines LOL!!  But we did some KoS raids with X2 and my lag was not bad at all it was fun !!! Any way Please if any one is reading this lol who has any thing to do with content of the game consider X2 and X3 raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> .

ZachSpastic
06-20-2008, 04:27 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have stated this dozens of times, but situational classes need aa spec's that they can come as a massive buffing classes so that a crusader or a brawler could come offering as good as a buff build as a dirge or troub offers your dps groups.  Allows them to remain being a mirror spec away from a tanking config.  I don't feel anything short of this will change the opinion on the class.  Atleast when you have the luxury of picking the classes you want knowing every players is great.</blockquote><p>If you want to play a bard, then level one up. Do not ask for AAs to be changed so that other classes can choose to spec as a bard when it's convenient, and then spec as a tank otherwise. </p><p>The problem is raid encounters are badly designed. Oh, and they created too many classes at the start and now the game suffers because of that very, very bad decision.</p>

Yimway
06-20-2008, 05:02 PM
<cite>Post retracted.  Way too Off topic and pointless discussion.</cite>

Thunderthyze
06-20-2008, 06:04 PM
<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let me get this straight.  You claim that the classes are balanced in reguards to raiding but you freely admit alot of guilds completely exclude certain classes. <p>Which can only mean 2 things:</p><p>1) The class really does not offer enough to justify giving it a slot on a raid.  </p><p>2) People in that guild are just prejudiced against that particular class.  But that leads one to ask why are they prejudiced against any particular class at all.  Which leads us back to point number 1, the class doesnt offer anything to a raid that another class cant do better.</p><p>I see this as a good thing.  If a guild that previously would never look at a SK applicant, but now would because of a lack of guardians and paladins, I think this is good development for the game.</p><p>This may actually force the raiding community to look at class raid balance instead of just arguing for improvments to the holy trinity of guardian, bard and enchanter.</p></blockquote>Actually you are wrong. There are 24 slots in a raid and 24 classes. HOWEVER you may need more than one of a particular class (eg high dps or extra healing). Therefore there will HAVE to be some classes omitted. <b><u>It just so happens that nine times out of ten the first class to be dropped tends to be the same one each time.</u></b> Having said that, I've NEVER seen a raid go with fewer than 24 members when there were still players waiting for a slot. Insofar as your comment is concerned about prejudice I would tend to agree. More often than not however that prejudice is not bred from experience but rather reading forum threads like these.</blockquote><p> 9 out of 10 times isnt a numerical co-incidence.</p><p>It happens for a reason.</p><p>That class does not offer much to a raid.</p></blockquote>As I said....it DOES happen for a reason. And usually that reason is that people don't know their arses from their elbows and drop the SK because thats all they read about on the forums. If people actually thought about it and came to their own conclusions maybe there would be a bit less disenfranchisement. Those raid leaders who won't start a raid until they get the "perfect" groups are usually idiots who couldn't find their [Removed for Content] with both hands unless there was a walkthrough somewhere on the 'net.

Yimway
06-20-2008, 06:37 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite></blockquote>As I said....it DOES happen for a reason. And usually that reason is that people don't know their arses from their elbows and drop the SK because thats all they read about on the forums. If people actually thought about it and came to their own conclusions maybe there would be a bit less disenfranchisement. Those raid leaders who won't start a raid until they get the "perfect" groups are usually idiots who couldn't find their [I cannot control my vocabulary] with both hands unless there was a walkthrough somewhere on the 'net.</blockquote>We're not idiots.  When we have a less then 50% chance of defeating the target with a min/maxed class setup, choosing to bring non-optimal classes instead isn't going to raise that 50% chance, its going to lower it, and swap too many and you've lowered it to the point of guaranteed failure.Its not that we're dumb, we're just realists. Now, I can grab any 24 classes, and as long as 2 are tanks, and 5 are healers, we can go kill any t1 zone, but progression zones on the other hand require near optimal raid build for us to beat atm.  

Tehom
06-20-2008, 10:58 PM
<p>First off, it's the time of the year.</p><p>Between EQ1 and EQ2, I've led raidforces for the better part of a decade now. Spring is always rough - you see dramatically reduced playtimes in a lot of people. I always saw recruitment go up universally during this time of the year. But there's other factors as well. AoC is a new game. Even if people don't quit entirely, a lot will play less to try it out, and that'll contribute to being short-handed.</p><p>And there's the roadblock problem. The nature of EQ2's design, both in mechanics and in encounter design, can harshly penalize you for trying encounters with weak forces. You'll see compounding double penalties with any number of timed mechanics if you have low dps, lose a higher proportion of your raid force to required tasks, whatever.</p><p>The problem with that design is most people are not very patient. The number of players who are willing to endure failing to something for months is extremely small, and most players are very willing to hop guilds when they hit a rough patch or just stop playing until things clear up without them. While they can't solve human nature, I feel that itemization is partly to blame in the creation of roadblocks - there isn't nearly enough granularity in terms of upgrades in low tiers to allow for farming to significantly increase a raidforce's abilities on tougher encounters versus playing ability or class composition. The lower tier class sets should have been far, far stronger, itemization ignores the realities of what's important for given classes (+avoidance trumping nearly any other factor for fighters/clerics), whatever. It's far from a difficult problem to solve, but I doubt they'll ever bother.</p>

liveja
06-21-2008, 08:21 AM
<cite>ZachSpastic wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do not ask for AAs to be changed <span style="color: #ff3300;"><b>so that other classes can choose to spec as a bard when it's convenient, and then spec as a tank otherwise.</b></span></blockquote><p>Well, as a Rogue, I don't have an AA line that makes me an uber-buffer, so this analogy isn't perfect, but ... I can choose to go from dps-monkey to mini-tank, simply by re-speccing. With the new AA mirror, it's even more convenient for me to do so.</p><p>IOW, to a certain extent, some classes can already do what you're saying shouldn't be doable.</p>

Odys
06-21-2008, 06:45 PM
Very valid point, when i played wow you could find instance  guides on the net with specific group setting i probably never did a single instance with the proper good settingand the described strategy.It's probably worst for raids. When i raided i was several times  tempted to raise strategies  & group making issues but i prefered to order like a nice little soldier bot (or  worker) since i did not want to bring anarchy or misstrust in our raid leader. BTW get a mirror of reflected achivement if wow had provided one i would probably had player some monthes more.

erin
06-23-2008, 11:28 AM
Its summer.  This same post comes up every summer.

ZachSpastic
06-23-2008, 02:07 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZachSpastic wrote:</cite><blockquote>Do not ask for AAs to be changed <span style="color: #ff3300;"><b>so that other classes can choose to spec as a bard when it's convenient, and then spec as a tank otherwise.</b></span></blockquote><p>Well, as a Rogue, I don't have an AA line that makes me an uber-buffer, so this analogy isn't perfect, but ... I can choose to go from dps-monkey to mini-tank, simply by re-speccing. With the new AA mirror, it's even more convenient for me to do so.</p><p>IOW, to a certain extent, some classes can already do what you're saying shouldn't be doable.</p></blockquote><p>Failed reading comprehension?</p><p>What Atan stated was "situational classes need aa spec's that they can come as a massive buffing classes so that a crusader or a brawler could come offering as good as a buff build as a dirge or troub offers your dps groups."</p><p>Your analogy is not only not perfect, it's completely pointless. BTW, any guild that uses a rogue for MT or MA = epic failure.</p>

Kigneer
06-23-2008, 05:27 PM
<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey look at the bright side, with so few people to recruit from maybee these raid guild will become less picky about classes and the Sk mythical might actually be discovered on the 4 servers it has yet to be discovered on lol.</blockquote><p>Hmmmm...for new players, this maybe a good chance to learn raiding, too. Since big guilds tend to be so busy shopping for established players and feel it's "below us" to train newbies in the raiding arts (which, ironically can only be learned via raiding!).</p>

liveja
06-24-2008, 09:54 AM
<cite></cite><p><b><i>***</i></b></p>

Kizee
06-24-2008, 09:58 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm in a smallish guild with couples mostly and only one full group of lvl 80s .. Although we do that guildies who will be lvling to 80 in the next few months the most we could muster up atm is X2 or X3 with another guild .. I would LOVE to see some Instanced X2 and X3 content.. lol Even if ya went and made EoF into X2 and X3 that would be awesome since the top raid guilds are mostly done with that ( insert laughter from high end raiders who say they can already X2 a EoF raid) Well as very very casual players we can't X2 a EoF raid but I know we would love to do them and see the places we have  not been...  Also ( insert more laughter here from people with no clue) I'm playing on Dial-up, because  where I live thats the only option. So when I do get into a X4 raid (pick up raid) I lag something awefull I'm talking going from 400 up to 6000 ping every time the mobs were pulled with the very lowest settings and all names and particle effects off.. I have tried and tried to find out why this happins but I'm thinking its just the nature of tuns of info trying to go thru itty bitty phone lines LOL!!  But we did some KoS raids with X2 and my lag was not bad at all it was fun !!! Any way Please if any one is reading this lol who has any thing to do with content of the game consider X2 and X3 raids <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> .</blockquote>SoE said they won't be adding any more x2 raids because the ones they added were rarely used.

Kizee
06-24-2008, 10:00 AM
<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its summer.  This same post comes up every summer.</blockquote>Except summer has nothing to do with people being roadblocked at the beginning of a zone for a year. Wiping to a mob over and over and over for 5 hours a night for months doesn't really up morale.

simpwrx02
06-24-2008, 10:10 AM
<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its summer.  This same post comes up every summer.</blockquote>Except summer has nothing to do with people being roadblocked at the beginning of a zone for a year. Wiping to a mob over and over and over for 5 hours a night for months doesn't really up morale. </blockquote><p>Not sure why it takes you a year to figure out and kill Drussk/Nexona  click, kill adds, kill dragon, yup that is the basic Drussk fight.  Nexona kill specimans to prevent heals, click shineys asap( they heal a lot) kill adds, dont dps to high on named, but if you havent kill Nexona yet I doubt you will have this issue, drake adds need to be mezzed and killed later.</p><p>Not being able to kill these names mean your raid force isnt performing, you may need to have your people learn more detail on the class they play, or if unwilling then get new players.</p><p>I think 8 guilds on my server have cleared VP or are very close.</p>

Kizee
06-24-2008, 10:25 AM
<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its summer.  This same post comes up every summer.</blockquote>Except summer has nothing to do with people being roadblocked at the beginning of a zone for a year. Wiping to a mob over and over and over for 5 hours a night for months doesn't really up morale. </blockquote><p>Not sure why it takes you a year to figure out and kill Drussk/Nexona  click, kill adds, kill dragon, yup that is the basic Drussk fight.  Nexona kill specimans to prevent heals, click shineys asap( they heal a lot) kill adds, dont dps to high on named, but if you havent kill Nexona yet I doubt you will have this issue, drake adds need to be mezzed and killed later.</p><p>Not being able to kill these names mean your raid force isnt performing, you may need to have your people learn more detail on the class they play, or if unwilling then get new players.</p><p>I think 8 guilds on my server have cleared VP or are very close.</p></blockquote>I have my mythical.I spent the time and killed them but quite a few guilds folded because they couldn't get past those 2 mobs. It wouldn't be so bad if they were stuck on the last mob of the zone but being blocked on 3rd and 4th mob on first floor sucks and is demoralizing .

Noaani
06-24-2008, 10:26 AM
<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Levatino wrote:</cite><blockquote>evilgamer said it already it might open up doors for classes which weren't frequently picked for raids..</blockquote><p><b><i><u>Even if this was true</u></i></b>, why would it be a good thing?</p><p><b><i><u>Lets say for a minute that there are classes that the majority of raid guilds will not take</u></i></b> (this is not true, there are classes that the majority of top end raid guilds will not take, but they are not the only ones clearing VP).</p></blockquote><p>So let me get this straight.  You claim that the classes are balanced in reguards to raiding but you freely admit alot of guilds completely exclude certain classes.</p><p>Which can only mean 2 things:</p><p>1) The class really does not offer enough to justify giving it a slot on a raid.  </p><p>2) People in that guild are just prejudiced against that particular class.  But that leads one to ask why are they prejudiced against any particular class at all.  Which leads us back to point number 1, the class doesnt offer anything to a raid that another class cant do better.</p><p>I see this as a good thing.  If a guild that previously would never look at a SK applicant, but now would because of a lack of guardians and paladins, I think this is good development for the game.</p><p>This may actually force the raiding community to look at class raid balance instead of just arguing for improvments to the holy trinity of guardian, bard and enchanter.</p></blockquote><p>Didn't think I would have to actually spell out that I was talking hypothetically.</p>

Thunderthyze
06-24-2008, 12:08 PM
<p>Fortunately, raiding is not the be all and end all of the game.</p><p>Fortunately, no-one is forcing anyone else to play the game against their will.</p><p>If you don't enjoy it leave.</p><p>To be honest I think the reason people are leaving the game is not because of difficult raid content, rather it is because of a general drift away after all sociable content was nerfed by RoK. Guilds became loose collections of soloers. Maybe the raid guilds that are throwing in the towel just forgot how to talk to each other?</p>

Yimway
06-24-2008, 12:13 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Fortunately, raiding is not the be all and end all of the game.</p><p>Fortunately, no-one is forcing anyone else to play the game against their will.</p><p>If you don't enjoy it leave.</p><p>To be honest I think the reason people are leaving the game is not because of difficult raid content, rather it is because of a general drift away after all sociable content was nerfed by RoK. Guilds became loose collections of soloers. Maybe the raid guilds that are throwing in the towel just forgot how to talk to each other?</p></blockquote>Nope, we're as sociable people as you or anyone else is.Those that have left, left cause their sick of dieing to the same encounters over and over and over and over again for months on end.

Kizee
06-24-2008, 12:15 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Fortunately, raiding is not the be all and end all of the game.</p><p>Fortunately, no-one is forcing anyone else to play the game against their will.</p><p>If you don't enjoy it leave.</p><p>To be honest I think the reason people are leaving the game is not because of difficult raid content, rather it is because of a general drift away after all sociable content was nerfed by RoK. Guilds became loose collections of soloers. Maybe the raid guilds that are throwing in the towel just forgot how to talk to each other?</p></blockquote>You would think the people saying "If you don't like it leave" would hold their tongues since that is exactally what people are doing....leaving.No, people are leaving because this expansion has no resemblance of progression in loot or raid zones. When loot that is dropping out of heroic instances is better than alot of raid loot something is wrong....When 2 mobs block guilds from a whole zone and prevent them from gearing up for those harder mobs then something is wrong....

Thunndar316
06-24-2008, 12:31 PM
<p>The morons put raid flags back in the game?</p><p>Good god they will NEVER LEARN!</p><p>Raid flags in PoP is what KILLED EQ1. </p><p>It's really simple folks.  Stop catering to the hardcore and make raids a max of 18 people.  This would enable small guilds to raid and end the JOB of belonging to a huge raid guild.</p><p>It's so [Removed for Content] simple.</p>

Mr. Dawki
06-24-2008, 01:04 PM
<p>Um if you think about it raid flags have been there since T5, you had to kill all the drakes to get to Darather in T5, you had to get all the eyes to raid godking in T6. You had to be flagged for DT in T7, You have to kill levaiathin in T8.</p><p>Since when was there no raid flagging in this game?</p><p>So they made some of the mobs require 100% raid focus. Good and bad at the same time, it weeds out the slackers but at the same time leaves no casual element at all. I have witnessed casual family guilds reach endgame content every expansion except RoK, most are stuck now somewhere between T2 and T3, some on Nexona and Drushk.</p><p>Back in my old family guild it took us a month of trying before we killed Tarinax (back in KoS). Granted this was a family guild but we still got to end game content well before EoF came out and had time to enjoy it. That same family guild, which I am no longer a part of, is still very active and can still put together a good 24 man raid has never seen VP yet, and the next expansion is not far off.</p><p>RoK has vastly widened the gap between hardcore raiding and casual raiding. Unfortunately those who can reach endgame content are happy but the other 90% of the raiding population is not too happy.</p>

Kizee
06-24-2008, 01:16 PM
<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The morons put raid flags back in the game?</p><p>Good god they will NEVER LEARN!</p><p>Raid flags in PoP is what KILLED EQ1. </p><p>It's really simple folks.  Stop catering to the hardcore and make raids a max of 18 people.  This would enable small guilds to raid and end the JOB of belonging to a huge raid guild.</p><p>It's so [I cannot control my vocabulary] simple.</p></blockquote>LOLHow is being able to field 24 people = hardcore?If you want to raid with 18 people then do the previous tier.

simpwrx02
06-24-2008, 01:23 PM
<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its summer.  This same post comes up every summer.</blockquote>Except summer has nothing to do with people being roadblocked at the beginning of a zone for a year. Wiping to a mob over and over and over for 5 hours a night for months doesn't really up morale. </blockquote><p>Not sure why it takes you a year to figure out and kill Drussk/Nexona  click, kill adds, kill dragon, yup that is the basic Drussk fight.  Nexona kill specimans to prevent heals, click shineys asap( they heal a lot) kill adds, dont dps to high on named, but if you havent kill Nexona yet I doubt you will have this issue, drake adds need to be mezzed and killed later.</p><p>Not being able to kill these names mean your raid force isnt performing, you may need to have your people learn more detail on the class they play, or if unwilling then get new players.</p><p>I think 8 guilds on my server have cleared VP or are very close.</p></blockquote>I have my mythical.I spent the time and killed them but quite a few guilds folded because they couldn't get past those 2 mobs. It wouldn't be so bad if they were stuck on the last mob of the zone but being blocked on 3rd and 4th mob on first floor sucks and is demoralizing .</blockquote><p>Funny thing is I never saw threads liek this during EoF about how hard the Tender was in EH, that was a first floor mob and it took many guilds months to kill it. Yet i dont remember seeing posts about how Tender was destroying guilds because they couldnt kill him, or in KoS how many guilds killed Tarinax to finish Claymore?  It is the fact that RoK gave so many easy quests with awesome rewards that required almost no ability to complete, causing a preception that any quest should be able to be completed with no effort.</p><p>In comes mythicals and the requirement to kill dragons in the top tier raid zone, just like every other expansion, well not really EoF, but they messed up the intended difficulty of MMiS and EH.  People are so use to getting top notch quest rewards with ease, that the effort to kill a hard mob causes such "distress that they fold guilds".  People are just greeedy and want the shiney toys now and people that leave guilds solo based on being stuck on Drussk/Nexona, simply tells me they have no desire to actually be part of killing a hard mob, they just want the loot to feel UBER.  I personally do not want those selfish people in my guild it is just too bad the leaders couldnt find them earlier and kick them.</p><p><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The morons put raid flags back in the game?</p><p>Good god they will NEVER LEARN!</p><p>Raid flags in PoP is what KILLED EQ1. </p><p>It's really simple folks.  Stop catering to the hardcore and make raids a max of 18 people.  This would enable small guilds to raid and end the JOB of belonging to a huge raid guild.</p><p>It's so [I cannot control my vocabulary] simple.</p></blockquote><p>So how is 24 a huge raid guild, but 18 is a small one.  It is 6 people an increase of 33%.  My deffination of a huge raid force when compared to an 18 man raid force woudl be at the very minimuim 36 man raids, and 50+ is what i woudl consider huge when compared to 18.  </p><p>You clearly havent played in a long while so curious how you have become an expert, when you havent realized as already pointed out that raid flagging has been involved in every tier raiding in EQ2, it was just required for 2 raid zones this time instead of only 1.</p>

Kizee
06-24-2008, 01:40 PM
<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its summer.  This same post comes up every summer.</blockquote>Except summer has nothing to do with people being roadblocked at the beginning of a zone for a year. Wiping to a mob over and over and over for 5 hours a night for months doesn't really up morale. </blockquote><p>Not sure why it takes you a year to figure out and kill Drussk/Nexona  click, kill adds, kill dragon, yup that is the basic Drussk fight.  Nexona kill specimans to prevent heals, click shineys asap( they heal a lot) kill adds, dont dps to high on named, but if you havent kill Nexona yet I doubt you will have this issue, drake adds need to be mezzed and killed later.</p><p>Not being able to kill these names mean your raid force isnt performing, you may need to have your people learn more detail on the class they play, or if unwilling then get new players.</p><p>I think 8 guilds on my server have cleared VP or are very close.</p></blockquote>I have my mythical.I spent the time and killed them but quite a few guilds folded because they couldn't get past those 2 mobs. It wouldn't be so bad if they were stuck on the last mob of the zone but being blocked on 3rd and 4th mob on first floor sucks and is demoralizing .</blockquote><p>Funny thing is I never saw threads liek this during EoF about how hard the Tender was in EH, that was a first floor mob and it took many guilds months to kill it. Yet i dont remember seeing posts about how Tender was destroying guilds because they couldnt kill him, or in KoS how many guilds killed Tarinax to finish Claymore?  It is the fact that RoK gave so many easy quests with awesome rewards that required almost no ability to complete, causing a preception that any quest should be able to be completed with no effort.</p><p>In comes mythicals and the requirement to kill dragons in the top tier raid zone, just like every other expansion, well not really EoF, but they messed up the intended difficulty of MMiS and EH.  People are so use to getting top notch quest rewards with ease, that the effort to kill a hard mob causes such "distress that they fold guilds".  People are just greeedy and want the shiney toys now and people that leave guilds solo based on being stuck on Drussk/Nexona, simply tells me they have no desire to actually be part of killing a hard mob, they just want the loot to feel UBER.  I personally do not want those selfish people in my guild it is just too bad the leaders couldnt find them earlier and kick them.</p><p><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The morons put raid flags back in the game?</p><p>Good god they will NEVER LEARN!</p><p>Raid flags in PoP is what KILLED EQ1. </p><p>It's really simple folks.  Stop catering to the hardcore and make raids a max of 18 people.  This would enable small guilds to raid and end the JOB of belonging to a huge raid guild.</p><p>It's so [I cannot control my vocabulary] simple.</p></blockquote><p>So how is 24 a huge raid guild, but 18 is a small one.  It is 6 people an increase of 33%.  My deffination of a huge raid force when compared to an 18 man raid force woudl be at the very minimuim 36 man raids, and 50+ is what i woudl consider huge when compared to 18.  </p><p>You clearly havent played in a long while so curious how you have become an expert, when you havent realized as already pointed out that raid flagging has been involved in every tier raiding in EQ2, it was just required for 2 raid zones this time instead of only 1.</p></blockquote>Tender was hard? The rumbler was more of a roadblock to first floor than tender was but the rumbler wasn't always up. Even then it only took us like a day to kill rumbler.I'm not saying make it a cake walk for people to get their mythicals but put the updates on the boss of the zone and make him the hard one to kill....not the 3rd mob into a new zone.

simpwrx02
06-24-2008, 02:15 PM
<p>I owudl agree with having all muythicals update from the hardest mob in the zone the "boss" per say.</p><p>I highly doubt that SoE will change that much coding to have mythicals update only on Phara Dar instead of through out the zone, and honestly the main complaint imho is people want thier mythicals, the fact the mob is hard is the complaint, the reasoning behind the arguements stem from the fact the first mob to get mythicals is on the first floor.  I would venture to guess if all the updates were on the boss the title woudl be slightly different and a slightly different arguement woudl be incorperated.</p><p>Lets get serious this thread is about people wanting mythicals and failign to get them for months on end because thier guilds fail at working as a team and learning after pulling the mobs for "months on end" for 5+ hours a night, [Removed for Content] I am really sure a casual guild raids 5 hours a night multible times a week.  I was happy it took my guild a few different days to kill Drussk the first time it gave more a sense of acomplishment when we killed him, same with Drussk, the rest of the zone was a let down with the exception of Phara Dar as we had 30 minutes from first pull on him to kill him before the zone reset.  This is just someone in the instant gratification thoguth process with adhd who cant focus for 10-15 minutes.</p><p>Also this was predicted to happen as soon as VS was made bypassable in the test notes.  Most were basically sayign that since VS will no longer be a road block the next complaint threads in raiding will be abotu Drussk/Nexona and how right they were, then again human nature is easy to figure out, if complainig basically go tpart fo the raid tiers nerfed may as well complain about the next mob you can't kill so SoE will nerf it as well.</p><p>As for tender being hard well your guild already has mythicals so it means you are able to figure out scripts and implement a working strat.  Mine has mythicals and we were able to figure out a strat, yoru guild probably killed Woushi during EoF, I know mine did think we were 4th on server to kill him abotu 9 months after expansion came out, my server had maybe 6 guilds during EoF that killed Woushi when he was current content, and in RoK we have 8 guilds with near full mythicals and a couple more workign on Nexona after already killing Drussk, 7 months into expansion.  SO i see it as this expansion raid wise is much easier than EoF, but more people want stuff now.</p>

Janto
06-24-2008, 02:32 PM
<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>So whats the solution to this? The playerbase is dying and raiding is becoming more and more difficult. I would personally like to see a LOT more emphasis on 18man and 12 man raids. I have been reading about the next WOW expansion and I know they cut their raid numbers down to 24 previously and now are taking this one step further with 12man versions of raid zones. </blockquote><p>I have wished they would do this as well, there needs to be an increase in the amount of 12 man and 18 man content for guilds that just dont have the numbers to run 24 mans. </p><p>Additionally they could just add two versions of the same zone as the WoW expansion is as well where you can join the zone in a 12 man format or a 24 man and the zone can scale accordingly. I am all for there being 24 man raids that only the hardcore guilds can progress through but it sucks that there is not a supply of 12 man raids for smaller guilds that just lack the numbers or time.</p>

Yimway
06-24-2008, 02:45 PM
<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><p>Funny thing is I never saw threads liek this during EoF about how hard the Tender was in EH, that was a first floor mob and it took many guilds months to kill it. Yet i dont remember seeing posts about how Tender was destroying guilds because they couldnt kill him, or in KoS how many guilds killed Tarinax to finish Claymore?  It is the fact that RoK gave so many easy quests with awesome rewards that required almost no ability to complete, causing a preception that any quest should be able to be completed with no effort.</p><p>In comes mythicals and the requirement to kill dragons in the top tier raid zone, just like every other expansion, well not really EoF, but they messed up the intended difficulty of MMiS and EH.  People are so use to getting top notch quest rewards with ease, that the effort to kill a hard mob causes such "distress that they fold guilds".  People are just greeedy and want the shiney toys now and people that leave guilds solo based on being stuck on Drussk/Nexona, simply tells me they have no desire to actually be part of killing a hard mob, they just want the loot to feel UBER.  I personally do not want those selfish people in my guild it is just too bad the leaders couldnt find them earlier and kick them.</p></blockquote>Actually...  there was tons of chatter about the rumbler being grossly overpowered post-nerf and not belonging on the 1st floor.  He wasn't a guild killer though, cause if you found him up one week, next week he might not be and you could get to the 3rd floor easily.I wouldn't say the messed up the difficulty in EoF.   Having a single endzone with a very difficult end mob is consistent with eq2 progression with several tierd farm zones before it.  Each of the farm zones are guarded by a difficult final encounter but had significant reward to do them without completing it.My fealing in RoK, there isn't enough of this and you hit roadblock encounters too early.

Thunderthyze
06-24-2008, 06:56 PM
<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Fortunately, raiding is not the be all and end all of the game.</p><p>Fortunately, no-one is forcing anyone else to play the game against their will.</p><p>If you don't enjoy it leave.</p><p>To be honest I think the reason people are leaving the game is not because of difficult raid content, rather it is because of a general drift away after all sociable content was nerfed by RoK. Guilds became loose collections of soloers. Maybe the raid guilds that are throwing in the towel just forgot how to talk to each other?</p></blockquote>You would think the people saying "If you don't like it leave" would hold their tongues since that is exactally what people are doing....leaving.</blockquote><p>What? You'd rather force them to stay and grumble all day long in the channels depressing everyone else too? No....once people have reached the end of the road, for whatever reason, it is in everyones' interest for them to bow out gracefully. </p>

Thunndar316
06-24-2008, 07:23 PM
<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its summer.  This same post comes up every summer.</blockquote>Except summer has nothing to do with people being roadblocked at the beginning of a zone for a year. Wiping to a mob over and over and over for 5 hours a night for months doesn't really up morale. </blockquote><p>Not sure why it takes you a year to figure out and kill Drussk/Nexona  click, kill adds, kill dragon, yup that is the basic Drussk fight.  Nexona kill specimans to prevent heals, click shineys asap( they heal a lot) kill adds, dont dps to high on named, but if you havent kill Nexona yet I doubt you will have this issue, drake adds need to be mezzed and killed later.</p><p>Not being able to kill these names mean your raid force isnt performing, you may need to have your people learn more detail on the class they play, or if unwilling then get new players.</p><p>I think 8 guilds on my server have cleared VP or are very close.</p></blockquote>I have my mythical.I spent the time and killed them but quite a few guilds folded because they couldn't get past those 2 mobs. It wouldn't be so bad if they were stuck on the last mob of the zone but being blocked on 3rd and 4th mob on first floor sucks and is demoralizing .</blockquote><p>Funny thing is I never saw threads liek this during EoF about how hard the Tender was in EH, that was a first floor mob and it took many guilds months to kill it. Yet i dont remember seeing posts about how Tender was destroying guilds because they couldnt kill him, or in KoS how many guilds killed Tarinax to finish Claymore?  It is the fact that RoK gave so many easy quests with awesome rewards that required almost no ability to complete, causing a preception that any quest should be able to be completed with no effort.</p><p>In comes mythicals and the requirement to kill dragons in the top tier raid zone, just like every other expansion, well not really EoF, but they messed up the intended difficulty of MMiS and EH.  People are so use to getting top notch quest rewards with ease, that the effort to kill a hard mob causes such "distress that they fold guilds".  People are just greeedy and want the shiney toys now and people that leave guilds solo based on being stuck on Drussk/Nexona, simply tells me they have no desire to actually be part of killing a hard mob, they just want the loot to feel UBER.  I personally do not want those selfish people in my guild it is just too bad the leaders couldnt find them earlier and kick them.</p><p><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The morons put raid flags back in the game?</p><p>Good god they will NEVER LEARN!</p><p>Raid flags in PoP is what KILLED EQ1. </p><p>It's really simple folks.  Stop catering to the hardcore and make raids a max of 18 people.  This would enable small guilds to raid and end the JOB of belonging to a huge raid guild.</p><p>It's so [I cannot control my vocabulary] simple.</p></blockquote><p>So how is 24 a huge raid guild, but 18 is a small one.  It is 6 people an increase of 33%.  My deffination of a huge raid force when compared to an 18 man raid force woudl be at the very minimuim 36 man raids, and 50+ is what i woudl consider huge when compared to 18.  </p><p>You clearly havent played in a long while so curious how you have become an expert, when you havent realized as already pointed out that raid flagging has been involved in every tier raiding in EQ2, it was just required for 2 raid zones this time instead of only 1.</p><p>I left the game over a year ago.  It doesn't take another year of playing to know that casual raid forces would garner a lot more players than 24 man raids.  </p><p>If raids are maxed at 18 then that's less players required, thus making the content more playable for every guild.  </p><p>If it were up to me I would max it at 12 players.  However, this is EQ and it must cater to the top 1%.</p><p>Enjoy playing in your ghost town because im never coming back to this piece of [Removed for Content]. </p></blockquote>

Illine
06-25-2008, 01:16 PM
the last problem are the mythicals themselves.I mean, look, when you reach VP, now the only thing you think of are the mythicals. and being blocked on a mob means you won't get those mythicals and you're frustated.Darathar was for every prismaticThe god king for all peacok weaponsTarinax for all claymoreMayong for soulfire? didn't do itand for the mythical ... so get it right away (Druushk or nexona) others have to wait the last mob of vp to get it.when you killed one of them, you're like ... how he got his mythical, why not me?? I have to go to silverwing ... why am I so unlucky??? Worse, they validate alts' mythicals, and not yours .... worse, after you have the impression those guildies don't play as much as before now they reached their goal.before all classes had only ONE goal, kill ONE named, now, everybody has his own goal, kill HIS vp dragon for his mythical.on HC guilds, the mythical is not the main goal, they want to finish everything, on smaller guilds and more casual the main goal is the mythical. I have friends on smaller guilds that don't even think of killing trakanon, or the avatar, or trangrim. they only want their mythical, as they wanted the claymore and else. so making only ONE mob validate for all mythicals would keep people focus and they would less complain. I'm sure.they would but not as much.and I don't think I'm exagerating that much. people only talk about that, mythical, mythical mythical ... it's crazy. more important to them than before.and seeing you name as a spam is huge, people want that too before the new expansion. before you couldn't see your name when validating the other big quests, now people congratulate you, envy you, want to be congratulated. and this Nexona is a pain in the .... and because of her, they can't be congratulated lol

drasklin
06-26-2008, 11:09 AM
<p>I think SOE is right on with their raiding and in line with past expansions.  I would compare PR with labs, ToT and Pawbuster with Crab, ToK with Lyceum and SoH with HoS.  Death toll is comparable to VP.  If you think back there are probably more guilds that have completed VP in this expansion than there were guilds in KoS that completed DT at the same point in the expansion.</p><p>The main difference is you could go to DT if one person were flagged but need everyone flagged for VP.  The Chamber of Destiny, in my opinion, is easier than killing all the mobs for the DT access.  I would also bet that more players have their mythical weapons in this expansion than people had the claymore completed in KoS.  I honestly don't understand why players are so negative towards t8 raiding.  There are decent raid zones for every guild to participate if they are raid oriented.</p><p>I am looking foreward to the next expansion and I hope the difficulty is equivielent to the progression in EoF.  SOE isin't perfect but raiding isin't broken.</p>

isi
06-26-2008, 05:35 PM
Raid guilds are falling apart for the same reasons as they have since the early days of MMOs.First off many raid guild leaders are...to put it blunt...jerks or insert your profanity of choice. They only care about their own progress and care nothing for their members. And if you point this out they just get upset.Another is many times members who get their superior equipment grow an elitist attitude towards everyone "below" them.The last is just boredom and/or frustration. There is only so many things to experience and people do get bored doing the same things over and over. The flip-side is frustration of failure as with the new Runnyeye instance, it's very difficult except for a group of well outfitted in usually raid-won gear.

Turb
06-27-2008, 09:42 AM
<p>As someone in a casual raiding guild (3 raids a week, no compulsory attendance rates), I think this is an interesting discussion.</p><p>We have cleared VP.   It took us maybe 4 or 5 nights on each of Druushk and Nexona to figure them out and get well drilled enough to kill them.   The strats are not exactly secret, it's 'just' a matter of executing them.    The trick of course is being able to field 24 people who have decent skill, who really want to succeed, who don't moan and whine at each wipe, and having a RL (who may be an [I cannot control my vocabulary] sometimes) who drives people onwards.   There isn't room for people who have one eye on TV or who ninja afk/slack.</p><p>I've seen many guilds fail because they lack the determination to succeed.   I understand why that can be... people don't sign up for the hard fights, or moan about wiping and repair bills etc, but you have to have a leader who gets you past that.     Pretty much every T1, T2, T3 and T4 encounter up to Nexona was a block for us, and we had to put the effort in to beat them.   But they all came good and, boy, the elation at killing the challenging mobs first time was amazing.   Even if the mobs get dumbed down, they can't take that feeling away <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Whether Druushk and Nexona should be at the start (floor 1 of 3) as a passport to a hatful of mythicals is an interesting issue.   Certainly everything past Nexona is trivial compared to Nexona.     But one thing I would say, if you are struggling on Druushk and Nexona is that if you have to wade through three floors of junk to get to them, to face a real challenge, you may equally find players getting disenchanted.   Yes, they'll get some loot on the way, but floors 2 and 3 of VP are very, very boring, as we're finding now as we have to spend an age clearing them to have our runs at Trakanon each week.   Just something to consider.   There should be a LOT of challenging mobs in VP, not two 'hard' ones and a load of easymode mobs.</p><p>I think the underlying problem is general player drift .. summer... AoC... but either way guilds are going to have to have organisation and good leadership to clear VP, unless the mobs are nerfed.    Personally I have no issue with nerfs, I'm not one of those who think it 'belittles' people who then get their mythicals.    But I would say people who get them just won't have that same degree of elation if they kill Nexona the first night they try, rather than after 2-3 weeks of hard graft and pain <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>