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Odys
06-13-2008, 03:07 PM
Eq2 dev decided that ranged attack will tricker social agro with a larger range than <div>proximity agro. </div><div></div><div>So we all body pull.</div><div></div><div>When i started to play i was really surprised of this feature. </div><div>It does not make any sense (from a rp point of view .. but i agree most of the game does not make any sense there <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</div><div>and it prevent a lot of alternative way of playing. </div><div></div><div>It's not hard to body pull, it's very simple (once you got the game  rules that enforce it).</div><div></div><div>According to me it narrows the game. </div><div></div><div>So why is this feature there? Prevents soloers to do things? Make the game harder ? It does not and you may make the game harder in 100 other ways ..</div><div></div><div>I don't remember it in Eq1, indeed i remember almost the opposite since ranged pull</div><div>was the rule.</div><div></div>

Jesdyr
06-13-2008, 03:15 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>So why is this feature there? Prevents soloers to do things? </div><div></div></blockquote>Really .. this is the only reason that makes some sense ... Root and Nuke is a common way to solo in most games. Since the classes that do this are lightly armored, they cannot let anything get to close to them. So, ranged pulls are made more dangerous by making BAF only happen if a character engages a MOB in combat. This means that if a solo character wants to solo pull a mob from an area, they will need to put them self in danger by getting close to the mob.

Norrsken
06-13-2008, 03:21 PM
its there because people used to just toss a long range skill after the named mob in a room the devs so carefully filled up with trash mobs, thus circumventing stuff the devs didnt want them to.ergo, social aggro.

Ravaan
06-13-2008, 03:26 PM
<p>body pulling = stupidest mechanic ever </p><p>*group is hiding off in the distance from an Orc camp*</p><p>ranger says "hmmm theres too many of them for us to take we need to draw a few of them too us to lessen thier numbers ... but how?"wizard "i can distract one with a blinding flash of light maybe that will draw a few over to check it out so we can kill them"brigand "how about we throw a rock hitting the guard in the head and he will come over and investigate where the rock came fromSShadowknight "no way those will draw the whole camp ... ll just run over to him jump up and down in his face and run back to the group"</p><p>whoever thought Body pulling was a good mechanic needs to be fired seriously</p>

Aurumn
06-13-2008, 03:26 PM
<p>I just assume the puller is creeping up out of the shadows, going "neener, neener!" at the mob and back pedaling to his friends. Assuming it's done well it's logical to think it's possible for just the one mob to get pulled and the others to not notice why their companion randomly wandered off. </p><p>By contrast I should think that the surrounding mobs would notice if one of their friends gets thunked with an arrow or starts glowing/crackling from a spell getting winged at em... unless of course it's a one-shot-kill sort of thing. </p><p>For an illustration... picture a crowd of kids. A random kid (the Puller) outside the group approaches and throws, let's say, a nerf ball at one of the kids on the outer edge of the crowd. What is the likely result? The kid that got hit hollers "Hey!!! Who did that?!" and everyone near him either snickers (cause they saw it) or starts looking around for the source.  (Ranged pull with large social radius) God help the Puller if he gets seen!</p><p>Next scenario: the Puller creeps up to the edge of the group carefully. He gets as close as he can to a kid on the outermost edge of the group, more or less by himself and goes "Psst!!". He carefully gets the attention of just the one kid he wants to talk to. Once he has that kid's attention he starts walking back away from the group motioning for his target to follow him and leads his target away from the group where their conversation cannot be overheard. (Body pull) </p><p>Works for me. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

Savanja
06-13-2008, 03:58 PM
You always sneak up behind one or two bad guys that have wondered away from the heard and quietly cut their throats so that you don't alert the others.  Gawd, don't you guys ever watch movies?

Miladi
06-13-2008, 04:00 PM
<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>body pulling = stupidest mechanic ever </p><p>*group is hiding off in the distance from an Orc camp*</p><p>ranger says "hmmm theres too many of them for us to take we need to draw a few of them too us to lessen thier numbers ... but how?"wizard "i can distract one with a blinding flash of light maybe that will draw a few over to check it out so we can kill them"brigand "how about we throw a rock hitting the guard in the head and he will come over and investigate where the rock came fromSShadowknight "no way those will draw the whole camp ... ll just run over to him jump up and down in his face and run back to the group"</p><p>whoever thought Body pulling was a good mechanic needs to be fired seriously</p></blockquote><p>Body pulling was around in EQ1, and its not a stupid mechanic. It actually makes perfect sense in a roleplaying perspective. Haven't you ever seen a movie where there's a group of baddies hanging around together? If you shot one, they'd all notice that right away. But if you attract the attention of the guy in the back of the group/line they pull him away from the rest of the group without the group noticing. The fact that your scenario for how it works is a perfect example of WHY its not stupid, and you totally missed the point.</p><p>If that method is the stupid way to pull a socially aggro mob, then how would you set it up? Not be able to get just one of them at a time and have to pull the whole group every single time? That's suicide plain and simple and people would howl about it, and rightly so. Encounters can't be body pulled like this, so the mechanic has its drawbacks in some situations.</p>

interstellarmatter
06-13-2008, 04:18 PM
<p>No, I hate body pulling.   I could appreciate when they finally added social agro.  It seemed like something to spice up things.  But it was implemented horribly.  Anybody remember how we got it?  We got in an update one morning with no notice.  People were coming here...what the heck...I hit and orc and 50 more pwned me.</p><p>Which is a clear indication that it was thrown into the game as an afterthought without player feedback or proper testing. </p><p>Only person who should be able to body pull is a brawler with a tricky FD maneuver.  Otherwise, if you need something in a crowd, you can lull the others, use an enchanter to mez or find a roamer somewhere.</p>

Zehl_Ice-Fire
06-13-2008, 04:54 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>its there because people used to just toss a long range skill after the named mob in a room the devs so carefully filled up with trash mobs, thus circumventing stuff the devs didnt want them to.ergo, social aggro.</blockquote>Yep, nowdays you can just wait till the other group clears all the trash and run in for the named <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Svann
06-13-2008, 05:37 PM
I think theres nothing wrong with body pulling, except that that is the preferred method for 99% of all pulls.  Kinda dumbs down the game when there is only 1 right way to do things.

azekah
06-13-2008, 05:41 PM
In the Clefts there is that Named that stands facing 3 mobs that seem to be sparring with him. You can pull all three mobs individually and kill them and the named will not budge. He'll just stand there, sparring with himself even though he's standing 2 feet away, staring at you as you pull the adds away.I mean, I don't mind, makes it easier to solo : )Just looks funny...

Meinen
06-13-2008, 05:57 PM
<p>there are other methods of pulling. scouts or peeps with invis can pull in certain zones. warlocks have a spell (concussive, i believe) that only pulls one. templars have pacify that is great for pulling. pacify is something i think templars don't use enough and is really cool to see. </p><p>Body pulling isn't the only method, sometimes its just the only way you can. They have put in a lot of skills into this game, just have to be creative.</p>

Norrsken
06-13-2008, 06:05 PM
<cite>Meinen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>there are other methods of pulling. scouts or peeps with invis can pull in certain zones. warlocks have a spell (concussive, i believe) that only pulls one. templars have pacify that is great for pulling. pacify is something i think templars don't use enough and is really cool to see. </p><p>Body pulling isn't the only method, sometimes its just the only way you can. They have put in a lot of skills into this game, just have to be creative.</p></blockquote>actually, assassins used to have that trick to, but it got fixed, so if you keep posting about warlo9cks being able to do that, the devs will fix them too.

Razlath
06-13-2008, 06:05 PM
<cite>Meinen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>there are other methods of pulling. scouts or peeps with invis can pull in certain zones. warlocks have a spell (concussive, i believe) that only pulls one. templars have pacify that is great for pulling. pacify is something i think templars don't use enough and is really cool to see. </p><p>Body pulling isn't the only method, sometimes its just the only way you can. They have put in a lot of skills into this game, just have to be creative.</p></blockquote><p>I personally have never seen Pacify work.  I have met people who say they have, but never and I seriously mean never, have I seen it work in my presence.</p><p>I have seen it attempted maybe 15 times by myself (on my inquis) and others.  LOL the other day some inquis actually tried to use it in Chelsith (that ended poorly).  Maybe I just have a anti-pacify bubble or something, but it has never worked for me.</p><p>My wife said it worked for her once when she wanted to sneak past a mob.  But it has never worked as a pull technique for her either.</p><p>Maybe I am doing something wrong, but it seems like it should be straight forward.  You have two mobs near enough to add, you pacify the farther one, and nuke the closer one right?  This is what I have done, and every time I get both mobs (and I am not counting times it has been resisted in this either).</p>

Norrsken
06-13-2008, 06:09 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meinen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>there are other methods of pulling. scouts or peeps with invis can pull in certain zones. warlocks have a spell (concussive, i believe) that only pulls one. templars have pacify that is great for pulling. pacify is something i think templars don't use enough and is really cool to see. </p><p>Body pulling isn't the only method, sometimes its just the only way you can. They have put in a lot of skills into this game, just have to be creative.</p></blockquote><p>I personally have never seen Pacify work.  I have met people who say they have, but never and I seriously mean never, have I seen it work in my presence.</p><p>I have seen it attempted maybe 15 times by myself (on my inquis) and others.  LOL the other day some inquis actually tried to use it in Chelsith (that ended poorly).  Maybe I just have a anti-pacify bubble or something, but it has never worked for me.</p><p>My wife said it worked for her once when she wanted to sneak past a mob.  But it has never worked as a pull technique for her either.</p><p>Maybe I am doing something wrong, but it seems like it should be straight forward.  You have two mobs near enough to add, you pacify the farther one, and nuke the closer one right?  This is what I have done, and every time I get both mobs (and I am not counting times it has been resisted in this either).</p></blockquote>it works, but it doesnt turn off social aggro. It just reduces aggro ranges. If that applies to social ranges too I dont know, but I guess I could try it to find out. It is however very nice for making tricky body pulls very easy.

Razlath
06-13-2008, 06:10 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>it works, but it doesnt turn off social aggro. It just reduces aggro ranges. If that applies to social ranges too I dont know, but I guess I could try it to find out. It is however very nice for making tricky body pulls very easy.</blockquote>Oh, well that would explains it then.  ;}  I will stick with my own body pulls then and not risk casting a spell that if resisted acts like I just nuked their grandmother.  ;}

Meinen
06-13-2008, 06:25 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meinen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>there are other methods of pulling. scouts or peeps with invis can pull in certain zones. warlocks have a spell (concussive, i believe) that only pulls one. templars have pacify that is great for pulling. pacify is something i think templars don't use enough and is really cool to see. </p><p>Body pulling isn't the only method, sometimes its just the only way you can. They have put in a lot of skills into this game, just have to be creative.</p></blockquote>actually, assassins used to have that trick to, but it got fixed, so if you keep posting about warlo9cks being able to do that, the devs will fix them too.</blockquote><p>rangers did too and it was tied to a dmg CA, so maybe thats why it got nerfed...concussive doesn't do any dmg and its mentioned in several places on the warlock boards (have an lock alt, so i read there) so don't go tryin to make me look like i am trying to hurt the warlock community. </p><p>I have seen pacify work a few times ( i used to run around with 2 templars that used it a lot). I have no idea if its upgradeable or what, but they never had a problem with it sticking. /shrug</p>

Razlath
06-13-2008, 06:29 PM
<cite>Meinen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Meinen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>there are other methods of pulling. scouts or peeps with invis can pull in certain zones. warlocks have a spell (concussive, i believe) that only pulls one. templars have pacify that is great for pulling. pacify is something i think templars don't use enough and is really cool to see. </p><p>Body pulling isn't the only method, sometimes its just the only way you can. They have put in a lot of skills into this game, just have to be creative.</p></blockquote>actually, assassins used to have that trick to, but it got fixed, so if you keep posting about warlo9cks being able to do that, the devs will fix them too.</blockquote><p>rangers did too and it was tied to a dmg CA, so maybe thats why it got nerfed...concussive doesn't do any dmg and its mentioned in several places on the warlock boards (have an lock alt, so i read there) so don't go tryin to make me look like i am trying to hurt the warlock community. </p><p>I have seen pacify work a few times ( i used to run around with 2 templars that used it a lot). I have no idea if its upgradeable or what, but they never had a problem with it sticking. /shrug</p></blockquote><p>Problem isn't necesarily with it sticking.  It is with it doing nothing when it does stick.  Unless the spell is going to let me nuke pull the non-pacified mob without getting the pacified one it is simply not worth any chance at a resist, even if that chance is .000000001%.</p><p>When I have observed it doing nothing, it isn't resisted, and the spell emotes confirm this.  But then you nuke pull and bam you get both.  If as the other poster said it doesn't decrease social aggro then it is not worthwhile to me.  I have never had a problem splitting mobs through body pulls, and wouldn't risk grabbing way more than I wanted just to make what is a fairly easy task easier (no matter how slight the risk).</p>

Meinen
06-13-2008, 06:33 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Problem isn't necesarily with it sticking.  It is with it doing nothing when it does stick.  Unless the spell is going to let me nuke pull the non-pacified mob without getting the pacified one it is simply not worth any chance at a resist, even if that chance is .000000001%.</p><p>When I have observed it doing nothing, it isn't resisted, and the spell emotes confirm this.  But then you nuke pull and bam you get both.  If as the other poster said it doesn't decrease social aggro then it is not worthwhile to me.  I have never had a problem splitting mobs through body pulls, and wouldn't risk grabbing way more than I wanted just to make what is a fairly easy task easier (no matter how slight the risk).</p></blockquote><p>ahhh i see what you are saying..when its been used with me, it was always a body pull that followed so you are probably right about it not reducing social aggro and not as useful in some situations.</p><p>really, was just trying to point out that there is other ways of pulling. you don't have to be limited to body pulling, tho it is the method most used. I still find it amazing that some people at lvl 80 have not mastered this...and i don't mean just a flub here and there. </p>

TaleraRis
06-13-2008, 08:01 PM
I hate body pulling, but I don't think body pulling is the real issue. It's the illogical way that social aggro was implemented in this game. There are very few abilities that can counteract the effects of not body pulling on a pull, so body pulling has become the "right" way to do things. My eyes just about bugged out of my head when I saw the bit about the new RE zone *requiring* you to body pull. Artificial limitations like this where you aren't even given the choice to be creative about where you pull from and what tactics you use just don't sit well with me at all. But back to the illogical social aggro system. They should have taken a feather from EQ1 and patterned things around how it is there. There is social aggro, but it makes sense. You don't want to pull a mob in front of another, because even when you pacify them to reduce their aggro radius, pulling one right past another will make them notice. But if you're smart about where you pull from, use the spells like pacify and soothe that some classes, like enchanter and cleric for those respectively, to reduce the likelihood that you'll get buddies, and watch which ones you pull, you aren't a victim to social aggro there. I hate the social aggro system here because it hurts me as a solo ranger. Even with good tactics and paying attention to my environment, I'm still limited by the fact that I have no way to combat the social aggro my ranged pulls will give me. And so I start out fights at a disadvantage if I fight in an area with social aggro, since I am a predominantly ranged combatant by nature of the class that I play and how my CAs behave, and beginning a fight in melee range severely handicaps my abilities.

Rahatmattata
06-13-2008, 08:10 PM
I like body pulling. Shoot a gnoll in the face with an arrow and his friends come to [Removed for Content] you up.

Kaash
06-13-2008, 08:13 PM
<cite>Miladian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Body pulling was around in EQ1,</blockquote>That's funny I remember crafters making items in EQ1 for monks that had extreme range that were basicall used for pulling.Later bards start pulling with their songs.Prox agro  (what it was called back then) was hardly ever used.

Esmunin
06-13-2008, 08:17 PM
<cite>Miladian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>body pulling = stupidest mechanic ever </p><p>*group is hiding off in the distance from an Orc camp*</p><p>ranger says "hmmm theres too many of them for us to take we need to draw a few of them too us to lessen thier numbers ... but how?"wizard "i can distract one with a blinding flash of light maybe that will draw a few over to check it out so we can kill them"brigand "how about we throw a rock hitting the guard in the head and he will come over and investigate where the rock came fromSShadowknight "no way those will draw the whole camp ... ll just run over to him jump up and down in his face and run back to the group"</p><p>whoever thought Body pulling was a good mechanic needs to be fired seriously</p></blockquote><p>Body pulling was around in EQ1, and its not a stupid mechanic. It actually makes perfect sense in a roleplaying perspective. Haven't you ever seen a movie where there's a group of baddies hanging around together? If you shot one, they'd all notice that right away. But if you attract the attention of the guy in the back of the group/line they pull him away from the rest of the group without the group noticing. The fact that your scenario for how it works is a perfect example of WHY its not stupid, and you totally missed the point.</p><p>If that method is the stupid way to pull a socially aggro mob, then how would you set it up? Not be able to get just one of them at a time and have to pull the whole group every single time? That's suicide plain and simple and people would howl about it, and rightly so. Encounters can't be body pulled like this, so the mechanic has its drawbacks in some situations.</p></blockquote>Body pulling IS a stupid mechanic. And it was NOT around in EQ1. Unless you are trying to call physically running into a room and aggroing it all onto you at once body pulling lol. Pac and range pull was the norm there. Or multiple people splitting with FD. The only way "body pulling" could have possibly split up a room in EQ1, would be if the mobs were out of assist range to begin with, when you ran up to one of them. Back before Kunark, we would split up a fully popped Raider Room in HK with FD if we could, since the whole room was coming otherwise. Later on with LDoN, there was no room (or time) for FD pulling, so we learned to pac pull.Having said that, I don't think any alternative makes any sense either, for splitting up a camp. Any way you look at it, the mobs are just idiots if they don't notice all of their friends rushing off for no apparent reason, never to return hehe. Imagine if that happened in the real world. Wouldn't you be curious if your office or classroom slowly emptied out, and if you were left there mysteriously alone? Wouldn't it occur to you to alert someone else? The mind boggles.They need to have SOME way to split up a group of mobs, or encounters will be too hard for some people. It's just a shame they chose such a clumsy and unoriginal mechanic to do it.

orchard54
06-13-2008, 08:32 PM
screw body pulling, pull entire rooms at a time on purpose, it makes healers actually work, and the game more exciting! (i'm saying this from having played a tank, a healer, and a DPS class to 70+)besides, trying to say "that isn't realistic!" or "that's not very logical" is a pretty mute point. After all, how can you debate something like that when you're casting spells and taking multiple swords to the body/face in a Fantasy game where you have hitpoints <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> hehe, its a video game, its supposed to be unrealistic. Besides, EQ2 says it themselves, EQ2 isn't about realism, its about High Detail Fantasy.my 2 copper, and I usually find this mindset keeps you more interested in playing any game, rather than nit picking about what isn't "realistic" or "logical". I get in guild groups that pull 2, 3, sometimes 5 mobs at a time in Chelsith and other high Kunark zones, and it keeps everyone on their toes ^_^

Wauke
06-13-2008, 08:44 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>...mute point.</blockquote>

liveja
06-13-2008, 08:49 PM
<p>Not only does "body pulling" not "inhibit" soloing, in some cases it makes it easier. For example, when doing writs for Yah-Lei Patrollers in JW, they roam in pairs, & pulling them aggressively causes both to come, but if you body pull one you can almost always split them up. As a result, body pulling actually makes that writ a lot easier for a soloist.</p><p>In other cases, I'll happily use more aggressive options, like when I spot Watch Sergeant Grolj & want to kill him before anyone else can get to him, but don't want to weave my way through all the rhinos & birds & what-not, so I use ranged attacks.</p><p>Other methods of pulling work in other contexts -- pet pulling, for example, or even Brawler FD in some circumstances, or mezzing one mob to pull the other, something I enjoy doing with my Troubie.</p>

Jai1
06-13-2008, 09:44 PM
<p>I like body pulling with my tank because it's easy to maneuver.  Unfortunately, all these  MMO's are silly from a realist point of view.  The game nobody would play, because most couldn't do it effectively, would be one were social agro kicks in from senses like sight or sound.  I like AoC with the 'back turned' non-agro but unrealistically sounds don't kick in or just the feeling you get when someone's coming up to kill you.   </p><p>I think the problem in games is the potential to overwhelm players and just cause death thus making the experience less fun.  Maybe the safety of virtual 'closets' is what appeals to some people with games.  Entertainment is escapism for RL crap.  We don't want to not be able to solo or, goodness no, to die a lot.  I don't want to either a) not be able to do it or b) make the approach universal.  Games should mix it up.</p><p>Why not put the RNG in based on data.  If I pull up to a camp of pirates and start body pulling them, the other pirates are going to watch each other die until there are all gone or bum rush me because it's in their best interest for survival.  I would think just about any agro NPC in sight and then sound would be 'sneaking up, to all join in.  There is the oddity of people watching others get their butt kicked in front of them with no intervention.  Save that for GTA cause pirates and Dark Elves have each others backs.  I'd say let people play mobs but my experience on that was piranhas at the EQ newb log. /shiver</p><p>Edit: GTA IV actually has people fighting back.  So MMO's are more fantasy.</p>

Odys
06-14-2008, 01:56 AM
In eq1 i remember pacify spells, clerics bard enchanter go it. <div>Another way yo pull was Fd and tag.</div><div>It was quite more tricky than sending the tank do the belly dance to the closest monster. </div><div></div><div>If you see body pulling as attracting a monster attention you should</div><div>have tons of way to do that, throwing a stone, making a noise etc ... </div><div></div><div>It is so weird that i need to explain it to all the newbie i cross.</div><div></div><div>Ps : loved the post about about the ranger and the mage getting ready for a nice pull </div><div>and owned due to the body pull rule. </div>

Odys
06-14-2008, 02:09 AM
Also in Eq1 you could no pull a Boss across trash since social agro worked more or less as follow.<div>Each monster had a radius ball of agro and he will join the fight if a monster </div><div>under attack was entering this ball. </div><div></div><div>So you had to care about the pathing ... You could get in deep trouble (ie cleric rez stick) </div><div>if th monster you pulled decided to come at you making a length detour.</div><div></div><div>But globally i much prefered the Eq1 social agro. Porbably because pulling was more a group </div><div>coodinnated task than the tank duty.</div>

TaleraRis
06-14-2008, 02:14 AM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Miladian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>body pulling = stupidest mechanic ever </p><p>*group is hiding off in the distance from an Orc camp*</p><p>ranger says "hmmm theres too many of them for us to take we need to draw a few of them too us to lessen thier numbers ... but how?"wizard "i can distract one with a blinding flash of light maybe that will draw a few over to check it out so we can kill them"brigand "how about we throw a rock hitting the guard in the head and he will come over and investigate where the rock came fromSShadowknight "no way those will draw the whole camp ... ll just run over to him jump up and down in his face and run back to the group"</p><p>whoever thought Body pulling was a good mechanic needs to be fired seriously</p></blockquote><p>Body pulling was around in EQ1, and its not a stupid mechanic. It actually makes perfect sense in a roleplaying perspective. Haven't you ever seen a movie where there's a group of baddies hanging around together? If you shot one, they'd all notice that right away. But if you attract the attention of the guy in the back of the group/line they pull him away from the rest of the group without the group noticing. The fact that your scenario for how it works is a perfect example of WHY its not stupid, and you totally missed the point.</p><p>If that method is the stupid way to pull a socially aggro mob, then how would you set it up? Not be able to get just one of them at a time and have to pull the whole group every single time? That's suicide plain and simple and people would howl about it, and rightly so. Encounters can't be body pulled like this, so the mechanic has its drawbacks in some situations.</p></blockquote>Body pulling IS a stupid mechanic. And it was NOT around in EQ1. </blockquote>Yes it was. How do you think monks gained the attention of the mobs in the first place in order to split? They got close enough for proximity aggro, which is what body pulling is in EQ1 terms as another poster mentioned, and used the tools at their disposal, in their case FD, to mitigate the effects of that proximity aggro. Sometimes they would use a shuriken or such to set things off, but more often the monks I grouped with would just get close enough for proximity aggro then flop and let the tank tag one.

LordPazuzu
06-14-2008, 02:50 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eq2 dev decided that ranged attack will tricker social agro with a larger range than <div>proximity agro. </div><div></div><div>So we all body pull.</div><div></div><div>When i started to play i was really surprised of this feature. </div><div>It does not make any sense (from a rp point of view .. but i agree most of the game does not make any sense there <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></div><div>and it prevent a lot of alternative way of playing. </div><div></div><div>It's not hard to body pull, it's very simple (once you got the game  rules that enforce it).</div><div></div><div>According to me it narrows the game. </div><div></div><div>So why is this feature there? Prevents soloers to do things? Make the game harder ? It does not and you may make the game harder in 100 other ways ..</div><div></div><div>I don't remember it in Eq1, indeed i remember almost the opposite since ranged pull</div><div>was the rule.</div><div></div></blockquote>So what exactly is it that you want?1) Ranged Pulling also triggering no social aggroor2) Body Pulling to start triggering social aggroOption 1 would be about as nonsensical as the way body pulling works with no aggro.  If someone gets hit with an arrow, he's gonna cry out and his friends will notice.  More so if he gets hit with a fireball.  Ranged pulling should trigger social aggro. THis makes logical sense.  Option 2 would be more realistic.  If this change were made, it would increase the emphasis on Crowd Control which was something I remember people [I cannot control my vocabulary] an unholy hellstorm about in EQ1, so they virtually removed the need for it here.  If they add social aggro to passive aggro pulling techniques then they need to increase the number of tools available for Crowd Control so you don't need an enchanter to survive.  I don't consider this to be a bad thing as long as more than just enchanters and bards get crowd control techniques.  I'd consider this to be a good thing.In EQ1, ranged pulling wasn't the rule, it was just convenient.  Casting harmony on possible adds to prevent social aggro or rooting/mezzing the adds was the rule.

TaleraRis
06-14-2008, 03:01 AM
The flipside is also nonsensical. Someone walks into the middle of a camp of mobs, and they're only going to gain the attention of a single mob? And you can do this right now with body pulling. I don't mean you inch up close to one on the edge. I've gone into the middle of camps of mobs with my shadowknight and so long as I controlled my aggro range from the majority of them, I could pull just one away from the camp by hitting that magic area where I was close enough to aggro him, but not everyone else.

Shackleton1
06-16-2008, 08:02 AM
If the pull is really tricky you use a pet...My opinion, both body pull and pet pull should be nerfed. Either you watch the mobs (scouting! how novel!), watch where they walk and choose your moment to shoot an arrow... or you fight them all at once like the hero you are!

TheMightyTaco
06-16-2008, 10:11 AM
It seems to me that the mechanic is broken because it is set in stone.Range pull = 100% social aggroBody pull = 0% social aggroThere should be a check rolled for each mob in the area of the pull. It could even be a different check for different types of mobs or scales down based on range.When any mob near another is aggroed:0m - 5m: 90% chance to aggro5m - 10m: 60% chance to aggro10m - 15m: 30% chance to aggroetc.And there should be some sort of modifier that can allow certain classes to pull better or worse. Oddly, it makes sense that a bulky tank in heavy, loud armor would probably be the worst choice for performing the pull and need good snap-aggro to get the mob after the pull.Of course, it's too much to wish for since mobs don't even try to run away when they are about to die.

Yimway
06-16-2008, 10:59 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>It seems to me that the mechanic is broken because it is set in stone.Range pull = 100% social aggroBody pull = 0% social aggroThere should be a check rolled for each mob in the area of the pull. It could even be a different check for different types of mobs or scales down based on range.When any mob near another is aggroed:0m - 5m: 90% chance to aggro5m - 10m: 60% chance to aggro10m - 15m: 30% chance to aggroetc.And there should be some sort of modifier that can allow certain classes to pull better or worse. Oddly, it makes sense that a bulky tank in heavy, loud armor would probably be the worst choice for performing the pull and need good snap-aggro to get the mob after the pull.Of course, it's too much to wish for since mobs don't even try to run away when they are about to die.</blockquote>100% agree with the changes to social aggro.  Also, increase the leash ranges as well.If you take a hostile action, at least triple the current leash range.  For social aggro mobs, make them lock on a social hostile action as well.  So that you can no longer tag the named in a room, and run him sufficiently far back that the rest of the room breaks.  Remove the ability to trivialize encounters by exploiting leash ranges.  I would also be in favor of the eq1 style of pet faction.  That being your pet has the same faction as the caster, and can not walk by hostile encounters without even a 2nd glance from the mobs.

firza
06-16-2008, 11:18 AM
<p>and give me a short time speed burst, a mezz, and fading memories...</p><p>= EQ2 fix <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

Svann
06-16-2008, 12:06 PM
Pulling was 10x more varied in eq1 and I dont remember anyone complaining about it.  I think body pulling in eq2 is overpowered.

Odys
06-16-2008, 12:15 PM
Indeed in Eq1 or i Wow pulling was way more interesting, and as someone mentionned<div>monster would run away.</div><div></div><div>Eq1 pull was based on 3 "sad" spell lines (cleric, bards, enchanters), wow used </div><div>the following concept : each class was able to control some type of monster and the best puller was by far the hunter</div><div>(mix of ranger and beastlord) .</div><div></div><div>In both games pulling was quite more interesting. So the mecanisms for a better social aggro are known. </div>

Zliks
06-16-2008, 12:52 PM
<p>Body pulling was most definitely around in EQ1.</p><p>I was a Warrior in EQ1 and I used to 2 methods to pull all the time 1) prox aggro (or, as you call it "body pulling&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and 2) shooting non-magical arrows at mobs that could only be hurt by magic. Both of these methods avoided social aggro.</p><p>Body pulling can actually be quite tricky, especially with wandering mobs. You have to get close enough that the mob you want notices you, but not so close that anything else does. Tricky, but certainly doable with patience. And I'm not really sure why you think it would prevent soloers from doing things.</p><p>As someone has already mentioned, body pulling isnt about roleplaying or realism.. it's about game balance. They don't want to encourage people to just pick out the named and leave the trash. Besides, that wouldn't be very realistic anyways.</p><p>I personally never had an issue with body pulling. I always saw it as - you got the mob's attention but you haven't hurt him, so he doesn't really consider you a threat.. so he doesn't call his buddies because he figures he can handle it on his own. </p><p>I've already accepted the fact that mobs have a very limited range of awareness/reaction. The game would be unplayable if it were otherwise. That, or they would have to spread mobs out so far that it would be boring. If you want things to make "sense" then any mob that would be inclined to attack you should come charging after you the moment they have line of sight on you. If you can see them.. then they can see you.</p><p>Too much realism ruins games. Every developer has to decide where to draw the line and people will never agree on where that line should be.</p>

LordPazuzu
06-16-2008, 02:16 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>It seems to me that the mechanic is broken because it is set in stone.Range pull = 100% social aggroBody pull = 0% social aggroThere should be a check rolled for each mob in the area of the pull. It could even be a different check for different types of mobs or scales down based on range.When any mob near another is aggroed:0m - 5m: 90% chance to aggro5m - 10m: 60% chance to aggro10m - 15m: 30% chance to aggroetc.And there should be some sort of modifier that can allow certain classes to pull better or worse. Oddly, it makes sense that a bulky tank in heavy, loud armor would probably be the worst choice for performing the pull and need good snap-aggro to get the mob after the pull.Of course, it's too much to wish for since mobs don't even try to run away when they are about to die.</blockquote><p>I think it should be 100% on both if there are other mobs in line of sight.  But then again, I also think mobs should call for help when in danger and run away when losing a fight and no help is nearby.  In other words, show some sort of intelligence and survival instinct.</p><p>I'd like to see an increased importance on mezzes, lulls, harmonies, stuns, roots, and snares.  Make sure one class type from each archtype has effective crowd control.  i.e. Enchanters, Bards, Shamans, Brawlers could all have equally effective methods of crowd control making it easier to form a full group without having to hold out for a specific class.</p>

Jesdyr
06-16-2008, 02:58 PM
<cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>I'd like to see an increased importance on mezzes, lulls, harmonies, stuns, roots, and snares.  </p></blockquote>You dont need to body pull if you have a good CCer in the group. Sadly this game does not train the enchanters to CC out of reflex. Actually most of the time it is frowned on by the group because there is so much AE DPS that mezz only slows you down. Oh and .. I got to use Daydream lastnight in MC .. we had no one to Pet pull so I was using Daydream on the 1st named while the tank ran in and pulled the trash <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Spyderbite
06-16-2008, 03:08 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Which is a clear indication that it was thrown into the game as an afterthought without player feedback or proper testing. </p></blockquote>So this was never on the Test server prior to the publish? Or there was nobody testing it on the Test server prior to the publish?There's a very fine line there when it comes to which direction to point the finger. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rijacki
06-16-2008, 06:02 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Which is a clear indication that it was thrown into the game as an afterthought without player feedback or proper testing. </p></blockquote>So this was never on the Test server prior to the publish? Or there was nobody testing it on the Test server prior to the publish?There's a very fine line there when it comes to which direction to point the finger. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Honestly, I don't remember it ever not being IN the game, not since day 1 when the tank in the group was body pulling on the island to avoid getting too many goblins.Body pulling was also a part of EQ1.  You either waited until the wanderer wandered out of the agro range of your target before plunking it with an arrow or spell (I was a ranger there) or you ran by the one you wanted while avoiding the pather (and hopefully your target doesn't go pathing over toward that pather while chasing you, too).  If you were trying to get one of a standing clump (no grouped encounters), you would, just like in EQ2, edge up into the proximity agro of one that's hopefully not within the proximity agro for the others.

TaleraRis
06-16-2008, 09:30 PM
<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Which is a clear indication that it was thrown into the game as an afterthought without player feedback or proper testing. </p></blockquote>So this was never on the Test server prior to the publish? Or there was nobody testing it on the Test server prior to the publish?There's a very fine line there when it comes to which direction to point the finger. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Honestly, I don't remember it ever not being IN the game, not since day 1 when the tank in the group was body pulling on the island to avoid getting too many goblins.Body pulling was also a part of EQ1.  You either waited until the wanderer wandered out of the agro range of your target before plunking it with an arrow or spell (I was a ranger there) or you ran by the one you wanted while avoiding the pather (and hopefully your target doesn't go pathing over toward that pather while chasing you, too).  If you were trying to get one of a standing clump (no grouped encounters), you would, just like in EQ2, edge up into the proximity agro of one that's hopefully not within the proximity agro for the others.</blockquote>Not if you had a class that could harmony (which a ranger should have been able to do if you were outside) or an enchanter/cleric who could soothe the mobs around the mob you wanted. So long as you didn't pull across mobs, then you could successfully calm the others and (I can't believe that word is filtered) nab the one off the end, rinse and repeat until you'd managed to get the whole group. Or you could have a monk split them. Or if you were an insane enchanter like me, you would just have them pull the whole room <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />

Odys
06-16-2008, 09:55 PM
<cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>It seems to me that the mechanic is broken because it is set in stone.Range pull = 100% social aggroBody pull = 0% social aggroThere should be a check rolled for each mob in the area of the pull. It could even be a different check for different types of mobs or scales down based on range.When any mob near another is aggroed:0m - 5m: 90% chance to aggro5m - 10m: 60% chance to aggro10m - 15m: 30% chance to aggroetc.And there should be some sort of modifier that can allow certain classes to pull better or worse. Oddly, it makes sense that a bulky tank in heavy, loud armor would probably be the worst choice for performing the pull and need good snap-aggro to get the mob after the pull.Of course, it's too much to wish for since mobs don't even try to run away when they are about to die.</blockquote><p>I think it should be 100% on both if there are other mobs in line of sight.  But then again, I also think mobs should call for help when in danger and run away when losing a fight and no help is nearby.  In other words, show some sort of intelligence and survival instinct.</p><p>I'd like to see an increased importance on mezzes, lulls, harmonies, stuns, roots, and snares.  Make sure one class type from each archtype has effective crowd control.  i.e. Enchanters, Bards, Shamans, Brawlers could all have equally effective methods of crowd control making it easier to form a full group without having to hold out for a specific class.</p></blockquote>yes it's a bit the direction that was taken in Wow, in order to avoid the CC to be only available to enchanter<div>they distributed CC over the classes. </div><div></div><div>Indeed saying that in Eq1 CC was enchanter and bard only is a shortcut, druid cleric and mage (and rangers) </div><div>could all root. Druid harmony was a must, my priest often pulled (was a high elf with charisma mug ready) </div><div>or prepared the pull.</div><div></div><div>I would for sure love to see more rooting (it should then be given to shaman and templar like in eq1) </div><div>monster calling for help and running away.  </div><div> </div>

Beldin_
06-16-2008, 10:28 PM
<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I don't remember it ever not being IN the game, not since day 1 when the tank in the group was body pulling on the island to avoid getting too many goblins.Body pulling was also a part of EQ1.  You either waited until the wanderer wandered out of the agro range of your target before plunking it with an arrow or spell (I was a ranger there) or you ran by the one you wanted while avoiding the pather (and hopefully your target doesn't go pathing over toward that pather while chasing you, too).  If you were trying to get one of a standing clump (no grouped encounters), you would, just like in EQ2, edge up into the proximity agro of one that's hopefully not within the proximity agro for the others.</blockquote><p>At the beginning i think there was only social aggro in very few zones, Runnyeye was one i remember, however it was never a problem to pull mobs with pets over 1000 meters, or pull anything with my rangers bow in overland zones. I think it started with KoS when suddenly you've got social aggro everywhere, and even the gazers were not social at the start of KoS.</p><p>For classes like ranger this was however very annoying, because you need to pull from max distance, because your simply gimped as soon as the mob is in front of you. I especially think about clearing these tree-houses in TT with all the droags on it with my ranger <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

TaleraRis
06-16-2008, 10:43 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly, I don't remember it ever not being IN the game, not since day 1 when the tank in the group was body pulling on the island to avoid getting too many goblins.Body pulling was also a part of EQ1.  You either waited until the wanderer wandered out of the agro range of your target before plunking it with an arrow or spell (I was a ranger there) or you ran by the one you wanted while avoiding the pather (and hopefully your target doesn't go pathing over toward that pather while chasing you, too).  If you were trying to get one of a standing clump (no grouped encounters), you would, just like in EQ2, edge up into the proximity agro of one that's hopefully not within the proximity agro for the others.</blockquote><p>At the beginning i think there was only social aggro in very few zones, Runnyeye was one i remember, however it was never a problem to pull mobs with pets over 1000 meters, or pull anything with my rangers bow in overland zones. I think it started with KoS when suddenly you've got social aggro everywhere, and even the gazers were not social at the start of KoS.</p><p>For classes like ranger this was however very annoying, because you need to pull from max distance, because your simply gimped as soon as the mob is in front of you. I especially think about clearing these tree-houses in TT with all the droags on it with my ranger <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>I remember having serious issues in DoF with the goblins in PoF. But Tenebrous Tangle is just awful for it, too, and those fairies in Barren Sky. I couldn't get to Gazer Island for the longest time because while I could take one ^ yellow droag on, I couldn't take the 2 or 3 who would add to the one I pulled even though they were nowhere near that one.

Miladi
06-16-2008, 11:19 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Which is a clear indication that it was thrown into the game as an afterthought without player feedback or proper testing. </p></blockquote>So this was never on the Test server prior to the publish? Or there was nobody testing it on the Test server prior to the publish?There's a very fine line there when it comes to which direction to point the finger. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Honestly, I don't remember it ever not being IN the game, not since day 1 when the tank in the group was body pulling on the island to avoid getting too many goblins.Body pulling was also a part of EQ1.  You either waited until the wanderer wandered out of the agro range of your target before plunking it with an arrow or spell (I was a ranger there) or you ran by the one you wanted while avoiding the pather (and hopefully your target doesn't go pathing over toward that pather while chasing you, too).  If you were trying to get one of a standing clump (no grouped encounters), you would, just like in EQ2, edge up into the proximity agro of one that's hopefully not within the proximity agro for the others.</blockquote>Not if you had a class that could harmony (which a ranger should have been able to do if you were outside) or an enchanter/cleric who could soothe the mobs around the mob you wanted. So long as you didn't pull across mobs, then you could successfully calm the others and (I can't believe that word is filtered) nab the one off the end, rinse and repeat until you'd managed to get the whole group. Or you could have a monk split them. Or if you were an insane enchanter like me, you would just have them pull the whole room <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /></blockquote>I can't believe I forgot about harmony from EQ, I used to use it all the time in the giant fort in Burning Woods to pull that one guy in the back all the time. I'm glad I'm not the only one that remembers body pulling from EQ. Its a time honored, even if some think its not honorable, method of pulling just one mob at a time instead of being swarmed by all his buddies.

Rijacki
06-17-2008, 12:21 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Which is a clear indication that it was thrown into the game as an afterthought without player feedback or proper testing. </p></blockquote>So this was never on the Test server prior to the publish? Or there was nobody testing it on the Test server prior to the publish?There's a very fine line there when it comes to which direction to point the finger. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Honestly, I don't remember it ever not being IN the game, not since day 1 when the tank in the group was body pulling on the island to avoid getting too many goblins.Body pulling was also a part of EQ1.  You either waited until the wanderer wandered out of the agro range of your target before plunking it with an arrow or spell (I was a ranger there) or you ran by the one you wanted while avoiding the pather (and hopefully your target doesn't go pathing over toward that pather while chasing you, too).  If you were trying to get one of a standing clump (no grouped encounters), you would, just like in EQ2, edge up into the proximity agro of one that's hopefully not within the proximity agro for the others.</blockquote>Not if you had a class that could harmony (which a ranger should have been able to do if you were outside) or an enchanter/cleric who could soothe the mobs around the mob you wanted. So long as you didn't pull across mobs, then you could successfully calm the others and (I can't believe that word is filtered) nab the one off the end, rinse and repeat until you'd managed to get the whole group. Or you could have a monk split them. Or if you were an insane enchanter like me, you would just have them pull the whole room <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /></blockquote>And you can use harmony or soothe like spells in EQ2, too.  Just as long as you don't pull across the social mobs or cast non-calming spells on them or or shoot ranged weapons into them too close to their friends, there are a lot of options on how to pull.But.... there are those who think they should be able to plink and arrow into a mob in the centre of a pack of non-grouped social mobs and get just the one.  THAT has never been possible in EQ1 or EQ2. It wasn't even possible in SWG.  I can't say if it's possible in WoW or any other MMO, though.  But if they allow you to pull whatever you want without having the -think- about how you do it safely, then they're nothing but easy mode.

TaleraRis
06-17-2008, 04:00 AM
<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Which is a clear indication that it was thrown into the game as an afterthought without player feedback or proper testing. </p></blockquote>So this was never on the Test server prior to the publish? Or there was nobody testing it on the Test server prior to the publish?There's a very fine line there when it comes to which direction to point the finger. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Honestly, I don't remember it ever not being IN the game, not since day 1 when the tank in the group was body pulling on the island to avoid getting too many goblins.Body pulling was also a part of EQ1.  You either waited until the wanderer wandered out of the agro range of your target before plunking it with an arrow or spell (I was a ranger there) or you ran by the one you wanted while avoiding the pather (and hopefully your target doesn't go pathing over toward that pather while chasing you, too).  If you were trying to get one of a standing clump (no grouped encounters), you would, just like in EQ2, edge up into the proximity agro of one that's hopefully not within the proximity agro for the others.</blockquote>Not if you had a class that could harmony (which a ranger should have been able to do if you were outside) or an enchanter/cleric who could soothe the mobs around the mob you wanted. So long as you didn't pull across mobs, then you could successfully calm the others and (I can't believe that word is filtered) nab the one off the end, rinse and repeat until you'd managed to get the whole group. Or you could have a monk split them. Or if you were an insane enchanter like me, you would just have them pull the whole room <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" /></blockquote>And you can use harmony or soothe like spells in EQ2, too.  Just as long as you don't pull across the social mobs or cast non-calming spells on them or or shoot ranged weapons into them too close to their friends, there are a lot of options on how to pull.But.... there are those who think they should be able to plink and arrow into a mob in the centre of a pack of non-grouped social mobs and get just the one.  THAT has never been possible in EQ1 or EQ2. It wasn't even possible in SWG.  I can't say if it's possible in WoW or any other MMO, though.  But if they allow you to pull whatever you want without having the -think- about how you do it safely, then they're nothing but easy mode.</blockquote>You *should* be able to watch pathing carefully, wait until a mob is isolated from others and then be able to plink it with an arrow and get just the one, however, and that's not how the current mechanic works. I've targeted a mob at the bottom of a hill before, with any other mobs having pathed up the hill well away, and because I used a ranged attack, the social aggro kicked in even with them nowhere near the other mobs. The Barren Sky fairies on the first island are mobs I was never, ever able to single pull with a ranged attack, no matter how far apart the mobs were. KoS in general was rife with this sort of thing - the droags on the way to Gazer Island, the eyeballs when you got there, the ravasects in any KoS zone, those darn fairies, writ mobs on various islands. It's not an issue of being able to plink an arrow or sling a spell into a group and pull out one. It's the fact that because of the illogical social aggro, there isn't even a chance for a ranged combatant to pick off the edge mobs with good tactics and careful planning of their attack. I remember when patience in pulling meant something in this game, but now the attitude is just charge in blindly because any other pulling method has a serious handicap.

Illine
06-17-2008, 06:13 AM
<p>personnaly; I like social aggro. it adds some flavor to the game. if you don't body pull you could find yourself with too many enemies to fight at a time and die.</p><p>and it makes sense. when you hit a goblin, if his goblin friend sees that, he will help him. but if he sees his friend running somewhere he will not worry.</p><p>of course mobs line of sight is sometimes short, they should see you from afar and then aggro you, but if it was like reality you would aggro a room just by staying at the door, would be tough.</p><p>body pulling is easy when you know how to do it, it's still harder than just throwing an arrow or casting a spell. and it doesn't prevent from soloing. even a mage can body pull, it's more tactic and fun I think.</p><p>it's not logical as a mage to cast root on a goblin and killing him in the middle of a room full of goblins and none of them would care just because you where placed somewhere where you can't aggro.</p>

MrWolfie
06-17-2008, 09:44 AM
Except, and I've always said this, body pulling is a nerf on all the classes that shouldn't be taking damage when they fight.Oh, it's fine for fighters and most scouts, but casters and healers shouldn't be body pulling. Ever.Social aggro is unfair, like a tax that hits the poor harder than it does the rich. A full group just takes on whatever they pull, a small group body pulls (and rarely has a problem). The problem arises when the small group is unconventional and has no fighters. Therefore social aggro only affects unconventional small groups and soloing casters/healers. It only has negative impact on a fraction of the playerbase - and the weaker classes at that. Any change which negatively impacts a few and makes little difference to stronger classes or reinforces group stereotypes is BAD.

TaleraRis
06-17-2008, 10:37 PM
<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except, and I've always said this, body pulling is a nerf on all the classes that shouldn't be taking damage when they fight.Oh, it's fine for fighters and most scouts, but casters and healers shouldn't be body pulling. Ever.Social aggro is unfair, like a tax that hits the poor harder than it does the rich. A full group just takes on whatever they pull, a small group body pulls (and rarely has a problem). The problem arises when the small group is unconventional and has no fighters. Therefore social aggro only affects unconventional small groups and soloing casters/healers/<b>rangers</b> It only has negative impact on a fraction of the playerbase - and the weaker classes at that. Any change which negatively impacts a few and makes little difference to stronger classes or reinforces group stereotypes is BAD.</blockquote>Fixed that for you. With a repertoire mostly of ranged attacks that cannot be used in melee range, we're just as handicapped by having to start a fight in melee as soloing casters and healers are.

Odys
06-18-2008, 03:29 AM
Hu hu some fan boys here try to instill the idea <div>that i want a ranger to pull a monster from a pack with an arrow ...</div><div></div><div>i never said that. </div><div></div><div>What i would like is something like <span style="font-size: 16px;font-family: verdana;" class="Apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 11px;color: #afc2d2;" class="genmed"><b><span style="font-family: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Gwyneth</span></b></span>  wrote. </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="Apple-style-span"></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="Apple-style-span">Body pulling is really dumbing down the pulling art <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="Apple-style-span">I proudly provided my groups in eq1 with snared single monsters</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="Apple-style-span">(with my druid or my ranger) and i did pull as a cleric with my charisma muggs in hands </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 16px;" class="Apple-style-span">(sorry for the font but safari does not work well)</span></div>

MrWolfie
06-18-2008, 09:42 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Except, and I've always said this, body pulling is a nerf on all the classes that shouldn't be taking damage when they fight.Oh, it's fine for fighters and most scouts, but casters and healers shouldn't be body pulling. Ever.Social aggro is unfair, like a tax that hits the poor harder than it does the rich. A full group just takes on whatever they pull, a small group body pulls (and rarely has a problem). The problem arises when the small group is unconventional and has no fighters. Therefore social aggro only affects unconventional small groups and soloing casters/healers/<b>rangers</b> It only has negative impact on a fraction of the playerbase - and the weaker classes at that. Any change which negatively impacts a few and makes little difference to stronger classes or reinforces group stereotypes is BAD.</blockquote>Fixed that for you. With a repertoire mostly of ranged attacks that cannot be used in melee range, we're just as handicapped by having to start a fight in melee as soloing casters and healers are. </blockquote>I'm certainly not going to disagree with you. Body pulling for Rangers is unfair too. I did say <b>most</b> scouts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Yes, it's unimaginative.Yes, it goes against the original design for encounters.Yes, it hampers many classes that want to solo and players having fun with whatever classes they got to make up groups with.Yes, it adds not a even a shade of difficulty (especially for fighters).Yes, it's just as unrealistic as not having social aggro to begin with.Yes, we're stuck with it.

Daysy
06-19-2008, 01:19 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>You *should* be able to watch pathing carefully, wait until a mob is isolated from others and then be able to plink it with an arrow and get just the one, however, and that's not how the current mechanic works. I've targeted a mob at the bottom of a hill before, with any other mobs having pathed up the hill well away, and because I used a ranged attack, the social aggro kicked in even with them nowhere near the other mobs. The Barren Sky fairies on the first island are mobs I was never, ever able to single pull with a ranged attack, no matter how far apart the mobs were. KoS in general was rife with this sort of thing - the droags on the way to Gazer Island, the eyeballs when you got there, the ravasects in any KoS zone, those darn fairies, writ mobs on various islands. It's not an issue of being able to plink an arrow or sling a spell into a group and pull out one. It's the fact that because of the illogical social aggro, there isn't even a chance for a ranged combatant to pick off the edge mobs with good tactics and careful planning of their attack. I remember when patience in pulling meant something in this game, but now the attitude is just charge in blindly because any other pulling method has a serious handicap.</blockquote>Exactly. What is the point of giving rangers all those lovely skills if they end up having to body pull and have all their combat at close quarters?