PDA

View Full Version : WTB Tank......please


Marfoir
06-02-2008, 01:44 PM
I am prefacing this post with a little background about me so hang in there and I will eventually get to the crux of the argument <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> I have played EQ2 off and on since right around release and while I am not 'hard core' I am a pretty decent player. I did the 'hard core' thing on the original core game (pre-DoF) and due to some non game related stuff (read RL) had to quit raiding and switch games. Well when I was able to come back it was during EoF, the guild i had been in was a shadow of what it used to be and I was stuck on a server that I played on with an ex and got tired of hearing 'oh how is xxxx doing? oh that is too bad sorry about that man.' So without looking back I left Permafrost (which had more than a few good tanks that would PuG at the time) and rolled a new toon on Butcherblock (yes i deleted my old ones, stop reminding me that i should have kept them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />) and didn't look back. I rolled up several toons to figure out what I would be comfortable with and joined a small guild that had a few cool people with the same type of humor as me, and settled on a warden eventually. Now enters real life again, between school work and EQ2 i had to quit something and well I needed the degree to get a better job, and i am a huge fan of food and shelter so guess what had to go, that is right EQ2 unfortunately went to the wayside again.Now enter RoK and the ability to play again. I started up my account again and had a new significant other that also played (woot lucky me, i spawned a girl gamer!!!! (ugh that was a long camp)) and her being new to eq2 we decided to roll a few different duos and settled on a Brigand/Defiler combo ( BTW if you havn't tried this duo it is everything the post say it is awesome!). I spent a good portion of time leveling up as a Mercenary tanking instances and so consequently befriended very few tanks. Around the mod 60's I decide to switch to the more respectable DPS spec of a brigand and put away my tanking, the logic being we want to get into a raiding guild and lets face it a Mercenary in a raid guild is like the red headed step child's red headed step child, and pretty useless to boot. Besides I needed to really learn how to DPS as a Brigand, here is where the problem starts. We start PuGing tanks, and WTFROFLMAO your 70 and don't know what a social mob is?!?! [I cannot control my vocabulary] what do you mean I am being lazy because you I want you to turn the mob?!?! Um your using ap2 taunts from the vendor?!?!? It went on like this more times than not, another one actually had trouble with getting agro off the defiler just from her wards (she pre warded on a group encounter one double down stayed on the tank, the rest went to her and I guess the tank then lost their taunt button, long story short she got creamed and then we did too). Occasions like this happened so much that I have a huge list of tanks that I will not group with again (some DPS too, but that  is a topic for another time, yes i mean you level 72 warlock that doesn't know what Concussive is!!!!) we figured it was our lack of being in a guild that was more interested in crafting than playing, so we went guild shopping and found a guild with some cool people and low and behold had a cool tank, and more had more that one to choose from score!!! Well then problems arise again, due to our ability to play a lot we soon out level our good tank and besides he has a job and a family that doesn't play like him so he has to balance all of those things with EQ, totally understandable. The other tanks in the guild all have their set groups ( and the guild lost a few during our trial phase ). Long story short we stopped pugging and didn't group with the guild for lack of being in the 'in' crowed and just quested our way to 80 avoiding instances and such. Now we reach 80! woot about time, first time I have had a level capped char since the original game came out. We got there and though gee now our problems will be solved, groups will appear with no problems and it will rain milk and honey! We based this on the level 70-79 chat whilst we leveled always being full of MC needs more, Chelsith sees Healer to roll and the like. We where wrong oh so very very very very wrong. We started LFM the day after we reached 80 and after the first hour without a tank turn to each other and say well this is abnormal, it is early still ( 10amish EDT ) we will get one soon, the second hour without a tank and we look at each other and sigh thinking it is just because we didn't group a lot at lower levels, the only flaw in this thinking was that our other group members acted like this was normal procedure and assured us a tank would appear and we would then stay a group and do a circuit run on all the instances (it was a Saturday) so we where like cool, third hour comes and we get a tank! woot this is the promised land here we go! assuredly here is that promised land of milk and honey, it does exist! The tank is abysmal I mean probably the worse thing we have seen in a long long time, wouldn't turn the mobs, bow pulled, was in offensive stance, randomly left the group behind and didn't care if we followed or not, didn't explain fights you name it this person probably did it. We left the group after we bowed out of the group after burning 2 repair kits and 4 hours in MC and decided to just watch a movie then play some alts later.No fear we thought this was a fluke a strange happening, it was swamp gas, or ball lighting it can't possibly happen again. I am loathe to admit this but we where wrong once again. After getting flamed in the 70's channel our first hour for rejecting a palidan for a DPS spot ( ROFLMAO!!(we won the flame BTW )) we spent another few hours looking for a tank. we get one. This one was marginally better than the last, but at least turned the mobs and didn't think he needed 2 healers ( he didn't of course, but that is another argument for another time and thread ) he was still laking in attention span and ability to body pull. I really don't want to bore you with more examples needless to say stuff like this continues always with me adding another tank to the do not touch list, and some nights just not grouping at all ( we usually only have about 4 hours a night to play tops ). Now what has happined is she rolled a tank and I rolled a Healer and while it is fun and we get stuff done (SK/Inquis duo) these are not our beloved mains. Which brings us to the crux of this topic ( told you we would get there )is this normal? Should we server transfer? and if so to where, or is Butcherblock not alone in its tank woes? Looking for some type of insight to this, anyways thanks for reading this post and your help is appreciated <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />P.S. I miss my Brigand

Ravaan
06-02-2008, 02:06 PM
<p>tanks are getting more and more rare ... i mean think about it this way why would someone roll a tank when </p><p>1) they almost get blamed for a groups performance moreso than a healer </p><ul><li>not enough dps ... tank didnt position the mob right</li><li>instances not done in less than 30 minutes ... tanks fault for pulling to slow</li><li>same group dies because of an add with no power ... tanks fault because hes pulling to fast</li><li>wizards/warlock dies ... tanks fault he can't hold agro (not the wizards that decide to bolt of ice on pull)</li></ul><p>2) when they have only 2 chances to get on a raid ... maybe 3 if the guild uses a monk/bruiser. but thats all you need on a raid is 2 tanks and many good guilds already have thier tanks settled or if thier tank left for AOC they are looked for a extremely well geared out tank. and How can someone get geared out if they can't even get in on a PR raid.</p><p>so most that rolled tanks ... rerolled DPSers</p><p>So really its not a server specific thing .. its one of the major F ups by SoE that will not change because the whiny DPSer might have to give up another spot or two to a tank.</p>

Razlath
06-02-2008, 02:13 PM
<p>Well there is certainly a lot there.  It sounds like you have had quite the journey.</p><p>First let me say that I am not flaming you with these next few comments, they are based on the impression I get from your very long post and only meant to help.  </p><p>I don't believe you will ever find a tank worthy of you.  Some people just are not happy unless they are doing the job themselves.  I play a 80 SK as my main, and often find myself mentally critiquing the tank when I play my brigand (50 now).  Often they don't turn the mob, often the group doesn't move as fast as I want.  The brusier keeps using sucker punch and making the mob face me.  They don't seem to understand what an AoE is and what good and bad it can do.  Some I have had to explain body pulling to (I actually don't mind explaining this).  All in all though, I keep my comments to myself.  I answer quetsions if asked, but don't just throw things out there.  Why?  Because I am not the tank.  I limit myself only to suggesting body pulls in really nasty areas just in case they don't realize just how bad it is.  And while there are some really bad tanks out there, chances are none will ever match up to the image you have of yourself as a tank.  This becomes more and more true as you try to tell the tank how to do their job.  Most tanks don't like the DPS telling them how to tank, and some will go out of their way to be vindictive about it.  At the very least the next time you put out looking for more the tanks go, oh geeze its that guy again.  I have a whole guild on my server that I won't group with for that exact reason.  Every single one of them I have grouped with thinks they need to tell everyone else in the group how to play their char.  Combine that with your ever growing list of tanks you won't group with and you are going to have tank troubles without a doubt.</p><p>I think you have made the right choice in building your own tank.  You obviously understand tanking very well, and I am certain you mean well when trying to help those you group with.  But in the end, no one likes a backseat tanker.  If you are unable to quell that within yourself you are much better off doing the job yourself.  Your willingness to engage (and be so proud of winning) a flame war in channels about something as silly as accepting a pally as DPS shows that you are probably incredibly outspoken.  An outspoken DPS who knows how to tank is possilby the worst combination for the tank possible.  You will quickly rattle them, and try to force them to tank your way.  By the time they get done trying to do what you want them to do, and do what they are used to doing at the same time they will probably decide it is better to go roll a DPS and let someone else deal with the headache.</p><p>If you truly miss your brigand, I would recommend one of two things.  First, try not saying anything about the tank's abilities (and that includes having your GF say things for you) during an entire run.  Do your job as a brigand, save the tanks butt when necessary and call it a day.  Keep doing so until you find that perfect tank.  It will be hard, but you can do it I am certain.  Second, if the first is not possible then get an AA mirror, and respec the brig as a tank for group instances.  I have heard from several people that a well geared brig can tank as well as a low geared tank.  I am not going to promise you it is true, but it seems to be something peeps agree on.  You might need two healers, but at least the tanking will be done the way you want it, and the group will move as quickly as you want it to.  </p><p>One of those two should get you back into the drivers seat of your brig, and kicking the snot out of the mobbies.  I really hope you don't take any of this as flames.  It seems like you are an intelligent player who knows a lot about different aspects of the game.  Unfortunately many wil interpret what you are offering as help as bossiness or arrogance.  Both of those latter qualities are killjoys and many choose not to group with people who exhibit those attitudes too much.</p><p>Good luck in your quest, whichever way it might go.</p>

interstellarmatter
06-02-2008, 02:20 PM
<p>1) Healer not paying attention - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>2) DPS launches highest nukes at start of the fight - dies - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>3) Group gets add - Chanter Mezes - DPS break mez - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>4) Tank doesn't raid - Gear only moderate - group moves a little slower than usual - Group breaks up - Tank Blamed</p><p>5) Tank is nervous because it's his first time in this particular instance - Doesn't always turn the mob because he's worried about getting adds - Scouts get mad - Tank Blamed</p><p>6) Raid spots are limited to 2 maybe 3 spots if bodies are needed to fill raid </p><p>Would you want to play a tank?</p>

Razlath
06-02-2008, 02:21 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Healer not paying attention - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>2) DPS launches highest nukes at start of the fight - dies - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>3) Group gets add - Chanter Mezes - DPS break mez - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>4) Tank doesn't raid - Gear only moderate - group moves a little slower than usual - Group breaks up - Tank Blamed</p><p>5) Tank is nervous because it's his first time in this particular instance - Doesn't always turn the mob because he's worried about getting adds - Scouts get mad - Tank Blamed</p><p>6) Raid spots are limited to 2 maybe 3 spots if bodies are needed to fill raid </p><p>Would you want to play a tank?</p></blockquote><p>And just to prove how sick I am.  I still answer yes.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>I need help.</p>

evilgamer
06-02-2008, 02:26 PM
<cite>sdgfly wrote:</cite><blockquote> Should we server transfer? and if so to where, or is Butcherblock not alone in its tank woes? Looking for some type of insight to this, anyways thanks for reading this post and your help is appreciated <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />">P.S. I miss my Brigand</blockquote><p>No, its the same everywhere.  Because raids generally only need 2-3 tanks per raid out of 24 classes nobody rolls them and seriously plays them as mains. </p><p>You are not the first person to comment on the lack of good tanks to group with in the game.</p><p>Most good serious players of the game want to raid eventually and that means not playing a tank class for the most part.  Which leaves you with boogers who think their SK or zerker is dps.</p><p>When I am on my non-tank alts I am appauled at how horrible some of these tanks are in PUG's, bow pulling, horrible targeting, do not know the difference between north and  south, not taunting, etc.</p><p>Often I annoy them because I am constantly critisizing their game play, but the truth is that some of the are so horrible I am just stating the obvious like dont bow pull a roomfull of mobs unless you want to bring all of the mobs at once.</p><p>I am relatively new to EQ 2 and my intial class choice was a bruiser as I duoed with a fury (We duoed a SK/Shaman in EQ 1). Consequently I then found out that exactly none of the raiding guilds on my server were recruiting bruisers and that the picture was pretty much the same on other servers as well.  As a consequence I drasticallly cut back my playing time on my bruiser and pretty much just goof around on alts now.  No point in getting in a hurry to get to 80 on a toon that will only be limited to tanking group content imo.   As a consequence my fury duo partner got bored quickly and canceled his account and went back to WOW.</p><p>Everytime I tank for a group on my two tank toons, I get compliments on how well I tank for groups, given thats all I did for 3 years in EQ 1 its not that big of a suprise.  I love tanking but only occasionaly log on my tank toons as I am in no hurry to go nowhere.</p><p>So to anwer you question, yes good tanks are rare on every server and dont expect much change until SOE gives people a reason to play a tank to the end game besides tanking instances.</p>

interstellarmatter
06-02-2008, 02:33 PM
<p>Evilgamer, I knew that you would stick your head in here.  Did you really say that, "any good serious players will want to raid in EQ2"?  That's kind of funny.  </p><p>I hope that you have your flame suit on...</p>

evilgamer
06-02-2008, 02:34 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well there is certainly a lot there.  It sounds like you have had quite the journey.</p><p>First let me say that I am not flaming you with these next few comments, they are based on the impression I get from your very long post and only meant to help.  </p><p>I don't believe you will ever find a tank worthy of you.  Some people just are not happy unless they are doing the job themselves.  I play a 80 SK as my main, and often find myself mentally critiquing the tank when I play my brigand (50 now).  Often they don't turn the mob, often the group doesn't move as fast as I want.  The brusier keeps using sucker punch and making the mob face me.  They don't seem to understand what an AoE is and what good and bad it can do.  Some I have had to explain body pulling to (I actually don't mind explaining this).  All in all though, I keep my comments to myself.  I answer quetsions if asked, but don't just throw things out there.  Why?  Because I am not the tank.  I limit myself only to suggesting body pulls in really nasty areas just in case they don't realize just how bad it is.  And while there are some really bad tanks out there, chances are none will ever match up to the image you have of yourself as a tank.  This becomes more and more true as you try to tell the tank how to do their job.  Most tanks don't like the DPS telling them how to tank, and some will go out of their way to be vindictive about it.  At the very least the next time you put out looking for more the tanks go, oh geeze its that guy again.  I have a whole guild on my server that I won't group with for that exact reason.  Every single one of them I have grouped with thinks they need to tell everyone else in the group how to play their char.  Combine that with your ever growing list of tanks you won't group with and you are going to have tank troubles without a doubt.</p><p>I think you have made the right choice in building your own tank.  You obviously understand tanking very well, and I am certain you mean well when trying to help those you group with.  But in the end, no one likes a backseat tanker.  If you are unable to quell that within yourself you are much better off doing the job yourself.  Your willingness to engage (and be so proud of winning) a flame war in channels about something as silly as accepting a pally as DPS shows that you are probably incredibly outspoken.  An outspoken DPS who knows how to tank is possilby the worst combination for the tank possible.  You will quickly rattle them, and try to force them to tank your way.  By the time they get done trying to do what you want them to do, and do what they are used to doing at the same time they will probably decide it is better to go roll a DPS and let someone else deal with the headache.</p><p>If you truly miss your brigand, I would recommend one of two things.  First, try not saying anything about the tank's abilities (and that includes having your GF say things for you) during an entire run.  Do your job as a brigand, save the tanks butt when necessary and call it a day.  Keep doing so until you find that perfect tank.  It will be hard, but you can do it I am certain.  Second, if the first is not possible then get an AA mirror, and respec the brig as a tank for group instances.  I have heard from several people that a well geared brig can tank as well as a low geared tank.  I am not going to promise you it is true, but it seems to be something peeps agree on.  You might need two healers, but at least the tanking will be done the way you want it, and the group will move as quickly as you want it to.  </p><p>One of those two should get you back into the drivers seat of your brig, and kicking the snot out of the mobbies.  I really hope you don't take any of this as flames.  It seems like you are an intelligent player who knows a lot about different aspects of the game.  Unfortunately many wil interpret what you are offering as help as bossiness or arrogance.  Both of those latter qualities are killjoys and many choose not to group with people who exhibit those attitudes too much.</p><p>Good luck in your quest, whichever way it might go.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with what you say to a certain extent, I generally keep my mouth shut when I see thing I would do differently as long as the group isnt wiping and accomplishing its goals.</p><p>I can handle tanks that dont turn the mob and do other stuff that isnt "opitmal", but seriously some tanks are just flat out horrible.  Bow pulling a room full of yellow mobs with no chanter is just not acceptable no matter how you slice it.  I have seen tanks in the 40's that still dont know what body pulling is.  Not taunting, etc.  Some tanks truely are horrible.</p>

evilgamer
06-02-2008, 02:37 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Evilgamer, I knew that you would stick your head in here.  Did you really say that, "any good serious players will want to raid in EQ2"?  That's kind of funny.  </p><p>I hope that you have your flame suit on...</p></blockquote><p>I believe that is a fairly accruate statement.  Sure not every good player will want to raid, but for the most part I would say that in general most people do want to raid some, most not hardcore or anything, but I seriously doubt most peeps rolled their toons to do strictly group content.  I am sure some did, but I would reckon most did not.</p><p>Like I said the key word here is most, but not all.  I am not talking in absolutes.</p>

Marfoir
06-02-2008, 02:39 PM
oh I do hold my comments to myself, I generally dont explain how to tank to the group tank, I just don't group with them again, or on the off chance that it was a fluke more than twice. I do this because 1) I am old school and don't bite the hand that keeps mine from being chopped off, and 2) if by 80 levels of being a tank, you havn't figured it it out then who am I to tell it to you.LOL at the tank blamed for everything, I did take that into account when writing this post, it is true tanks do at times take blame that isn't theres, and I know bad pulls happen, that unfortunately is not the case here, I really wish I could just say hey I am a bad guy with unrealistic expectations and all you tanks out there that have inspired me to this post are just the bees knees and rock out with you c%$^  out! I somewhat agree with the maybe I should just stick with my GF tanking and me healing view, but what is most likly to happin is I will give up my dreams of raiding and bite the bullet and roll a tank to play with her defiler ( she loves it more that I love my brigand ) but then at least the only bad tanking will be my own <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> thanks for the time you all have taken to respond and read the post

Jesdyr
06-02-2008, 02:43 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Unfortunately many wil interpret what you are offering as help as bossiness or arrogance.  Both of those latter qualities are killjoys and many choose not to group with people who exhibit those attitudes too much.</blockquote>I have to agree ... give input only if it is absolutely needed or if it is asked for. NEVER tell a tank how to do his/her job in group chat, send him/her a tell and be as nice as possible only in the instance that he/she is doing really bad. If you can work with a bad tank, it is best to just shutup and deal with it. As far as turning mobs .. Yah .. ok .. this is not totally needed unless you have a ranger in the group. Sure it should be done anyway just to make things a little easier, but this is such a small thing that I wouldn't mention it ever.

evilgamer
06-02-2008, 02:47 PM
<cite>sdgfly wrote:</cite><blockquote>oh I do hold my comments to myself, I generally dont explain how to tank to the group tank, I just don't group with them again, or on the off chance that it was a fluke more than twice. I do this because 1) I am old school and don't bite the hand that keeps mine from being chopped off, and 2) if by 80 levels of being a tank, you havn't figured it it out then who am I to tell it to you.LOL at the tank blamed for everything, I did take that into account when writing this post, it is true tanks do at times take blame that isn't theres, and I know bad pulls happen, that unfortunately is not the case here, I really wish I could just say hey I am a bad guy with unrealistic expectations and all you tanks out there that have inspired me to this post are just the bees knees and rock out with you c%$^  out! I somewhat agree with the maybe I should just stick with my GF tanking and me healing view, but what is most likly to happin is I will give up my dreams of raiding and bite the bullet and roll a tank to play with her defiler ( she loves it more that I love my brigand ) but then at least the only bad tanking will be my own <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> thanks for the time you all have taken to respond and read the post</blockquote><p>For me here is the difference, if the tank say makes a bad pull and wipes the group (and yes every tank has done this at some point, even the best)  does he apologize or does he start blaming everyone else for his screw up.</p><p>If I make a bad pull I immediately apologize even if nobody dies.  </p><p>Does the tank recognize his mistakes and does he accept responsibilty for them and try to correct them the next time.  That to me is the difference between a well play and horribly played tank.</p><p>Most groups will tolerate small slip ups here and there, most will not tolerate arrogant attitutudes and poor performance.</p>

Jesdyr
06-02-2008, 02:53 PM
<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>For me here is the difference, if the tank say makes a bad pull and wipes the group (and yes every tank has done this at some point, even the best)  does he apologize or does he start blaming everyone else for his screw up.<p>If I make a bad pull I immediately apologize even if nobody dies.  </p><p>Does the tank recognize his mistakes and does he accept responsibilty for them and try to correct them the next time.  That to me is the difference between a well play and horribly played tank.</p><p>Most groups will tolerate small slip ups here and there, most will not tolerate arrogant attitutudes and poor performance.</p></blockquote>As a Coercer .. I love when they mess up .. It is in these cases I get to actually show off <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  .. I seen tanks apologize for things that were not their fault (like over zealous DPS unloading too soon) and while some of them were not the best tanks I have seen, I would group with them any time. But hey .. I will tolerate [Removed for Content] near anything. Death doesn't bother me all that much.. it is just a game and I can have fun even with a "bad" group as long as they aren't all complaining the whole time.

Razlath
06-02-2008, 02:54 PM
<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can handle tanks that dont turn the mob and do other stuff that isnt "opitmal", but seriously some tanks are just flat out horrible.  Bow pulling a room full of yellow mobs with no chanter is just not acceptable no matter how you slice it.  I have seen tanks in the 40's that still dont know what body pulling is.  Not taunting, etc.  Some tanks truely are horrible.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, as noted, suggesting body pulls is one of the few times I will make a comment.  And just for clarity, "[Removed for Content] are you stupid, don't you know how to body pull, geeze what a [Removed for Content]."  Does NOT count as suggesting a body pull.</p><p>And yes there are tanks in their 40s that don't know how to body pull.  You could slap a big duh on that one.  TD gets you to 20 without ever having to touch a group, or worry too much about socialness (and in about 8 hours).  35 is a hop skip and a jump through BB, once again, insanely easy and quick.  Now you think to yourself, hmm, maybe I should group with ohters, this is getting a little old.  5 more levels fly by while you group with peeps who are usually twinked alts, and don't give a darn about proper group control and hurray your 40 with no clue how a real group works.  Blame the game not the people.</p><p>Body pulling is a counter intuitive skill, that you have no reason to develop unless someone explains it to you.  Wait, you mean if I run up to the mob and then run away he will come by himself, but if I shoot him with a nice stealthy arrow he brings his friends?  That doesn't make any sense!  It is pretty simple.  Tank pulls poorly.  You say "Hey, might want to body pull these guys, they are social."  If tank is new and you know it, you say that before the tank pulls poorly as you walk up to the scary room.  If tank still pulls with bow attack / nuke / taunt follow up with "Soandso do you know how to body pull?  If not, I can explain real quick no problem."  9 times out of 10 the person will either realize this group is serious and start body pulling, or admit that they don't know what you are talking about.  2 minutes and a demonstration later they are body pulling with the best of them.  I can't count the number of tanks I helped train while leveling up my brigand and I am sure there will be more.</p><p>I have grouped almost exclusively with my brigand as I didn't want to play the solo game one more time.  I have only met 1 tank that was truly bad.  It was a 35ish pally who didn't know how to taunt.  Mobs were going pretty much wherever and I was ending up tanking most of the time (my deaggros tended to dump the mob on the healer so I stopped using them).  We asked them several times if they needed some help on what taunts were, and when to use them.  We offered everything we could (not everyone in a nice manner), and eventually the group leader just had to boot them.  Pretty much every single one of the other ones has had something I didn't like about them and I would have done differently.  But they all got the job done.  And I get the tells afterwards from people about how well I dealt with poor positioning, aggro control, or whatever.  I firmly believe you stand out by doing your job well, not by telling others how to do theirs.</p>

Razlath
06-02-2008, 02:59 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>As a Coercer .. I love when they mess up .. It is in these cases I get to actually show off <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />  .. I seen tanks apologize for things that were not their fault (like over zealous DPS unloading too soon) and while some of them were not the best tanks I have seen, I would group with them any time. But hey .. I will tolerate [I cannot control my vocabulary] near anything. Death doesn't bother me all that much.. it is just a game and I can have fun even with a "bad" group as long as they aren't all complaining the whole time.</blockquote><p>LOL this reminds me of a dialogue between my normal coercer groupmate and myself.  Two really close together mobs in chelsith are walking down the ramp.  It was my first time there tanking.  One of the peeps helping to guide me through the zone says, you will get both of them, it is nearly impossible to get just one.</p><p>My answer?  Oh now it is a challenge, single pulls in impossible situations are what I live for!</p><p>Coercer's answer?  And when he can't pull it off is what I live for!</p><p>Never seen a coercer so happy to see me fail.  ;}</p>

evilgamer
06-02-2008, 03:01 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can handle tanks that dont turn the mob and do other stuff that isnt "opitmal", but seriously some tanks are just flat out horrible.  Bow pulling a room full of yellow mobs with no chanter is just not acceptable no matter how you slice it.  I have seen tanks in the 40's that still dont know what body pulling is.  Not taunting, etc.  Some tanks truely are horrible.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, as noted, suggesting body pulls is one of the few times I will make a comment.  And just for clarity, "[I cannot control my vocabulary] are you stupid, don't you know how to body pull, geeze what a [I cannot control my vocabulary]."  Does NOT count as suggesting a body pull.</p><p>And yes there are tanks in their 40s that don't know how to body pull.  You could slap a big duh on that one.  TD gets you to 20 without ever having to touch a group, or worry too much about socialness (and in about 8 hours).  35 is a hop skip and a jump through BB, once again, insanely easy and quick.  Now you think to yourself, hmm, maybe I should group with ohters, this is getting a little old.  5 more levels fly by while you group with peeps who are usually twinked alts, and don't give a darn about proper group control and hurray your 40 with no clue how a real group works.  Blame the game not the people.</p><p>Body pulling is a counter intuitive skill, that you have no reason to develop unless someone explains it to you.  Wait, you mean if I run up to the mob and then run away he will come by himself, but if I shoot him with a nice stealthy arrow he brings his friends?  That doesn't make any sense!  It is pretty simple.  Tank pulls poorly.  You say "Hey, might want to body pull these guys, they are social."  If tank is new and you know it, you say that before the tank pulls poorly as you walk up to the scary room.  If tank still pulls with bow attack / nuke / taunt follow up with "Soandso do you know how to body pull?  If not, I can explain real quick no problem."  9 times out of 10 the person will either realize this group is serious and start body pulling, or admit that they don't know what you are talking about.  2 minutes and a demonstration later they are body pulling with the best of them.  I can't count the number of tanks I helped train while leveling up my brigand and I am sure there will be more.</p><p>I have grouped almost exclusively with my brigand as I didn't want to play the solo game one more time.  I have only met 1 tank that was truly bad.  It was a 35ish pally who didn't know how to taunt.  Mobs were going pretty much wherever and I was ending up tanking most of the time (my deaggros tended to dump the mob on the healer so I stopped using them).  We asked them several times if they needed some help on what taunts were, and when to use them.  We offered everything we could (not everyone in a nice manner), and eventually the group leader just had to boot them.  Pretty much every single one of the other ones has had something I didn't like about them and I would have done differently.  But they all got the job done.  And I get the tells afterwards from people about how well I dealt with poor positioning, aggro control, or whatever.  I firmly believe you stand out by doing your job well, not by telling others how to do theirs.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah I grouped with a horrible SK this weekend, he refused to body pull even after the entire group explained to him that he needed to for a few rooms.  </p><p>About halfway through the instance he logs out with litle warning.  Guess I am talking with that fresh in the memory.</p>

funkmasterflex
06-02-2008, 03:01 PM
so how does one get to be considered a great tank? i actually rolled a tank and am only up to lvl 5 and have been digging it so far though ive yet to group or twink it or any of that jazz.  if someone's got a new tank what are the groups looking for? i see alot of grief in groups and around the game but there's not alot of feedback what would be good. answers and suggestions are always good instead of saying blanket 'meeeh learn to play your toon better'. what's a good tank do that makes them good?

azekah
06-02-2008, 03:05 PM
Ha!I was in a  horrible group once. The tank matched some of your descriptions exactly so I decided to bail.The funny thing was, after I mention I have to go, he says, "This is why I hate PUG's"I literally rofl, then cried, then logged off and watched TV...

Jesdyr
06-02-2008, 03:08 PM
<cite>funkmasterflex wrote:</cite><blockquote>so how does one get to be considered a great tank? i actually rolled a tank and am only up to lvl 5 and have been digging it so far though ive yet to group or twink it or any of that jazz.  if someone's got a new tank what are the groups looking for? i see alot of grief in groups and around the game but there's not alot of feedback what would be good. answers and suggestions are always good instead of saying blanket 'meeeh learn to play your toon better'. what's a good tank do that makes them good?</blockquote>Most of the class forums for tanks have some type of newbie tanking guide ... EQ2flames would be a good spot to look as well. Really you need to know how to pull and hold aggro. You need to always be aware of what your group is doing and how to deal with their mistakes. Since this game puts little focus on CC, it is up to you to control the fight. Really, to be a great tank, you need to know what every class should be doing at any given time. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

StormCinder
06-02-2008, 03:08 PM
<p>Why not just roll a tank alt to keep in your back pocket for just such an occasion?</p><p>SC</p>

Razlath
06-02-2008, 03:11 PM
<cite>sdgfly wrote:</cite><blockquote> I somewhat agree with the maybe I should just stick with my GF tanking and me healing view, but what is most likly to happin is I will give up my dreams of raiding and bite the bullet and roll a tank to play with her defiler ( she loves it more that I love my brigand ) but then at least the only bad tanking will be my own <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> thanks for the time you all have taken to respond and read the post</blockquote><p>The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  You can always find a good raid guild with the brig, and play him when your raid guild is running groups.  Then when no raid guild action is happening run your tank and healer combo with your GF.  Yes it means working up two chars, but it would let you fulfill both goals.  If nothing else, keep up the search.  I have met some great tanks while playing my brig, and I have met some mediocre tanks.  I have even met one really horrible tank.  They are out there I am sure.  But as many pointed out, getting them to play with you might be diff.  A lot of the really good tanks are snapped up by guilds and have a lot of guild commitments to fulfill.  Good players of any archtype are hard to find, and guilds tend to grab them up and hold onto them as tight as they can.</p><p>You could also start your own raid guild.  If the thoughts put forth by many here are correct there are probably other tanks who would be willing to join you in your endeavours and take up some of those limited tank raid spots.  I don't have plate tanks beating down my door for raid slots, but that is a good thing to me.  I hate turning people away, and we already have a guard and 2 SKs.  ;}</p>

Razlath
06-02-2008, 03:28 PM
<cite>funkmasterflex wrote:</cite><blockquote>so how does one get to be considered a great tank? i actually rolled a tank and am only up to lvl 5 and have been digging it so far though ive yet to group or twink it or any of that jazz.  if someone's got a new tank what are the groups looking for? i see alot of grief in groups and around the game but there's not alot of feedback what would be good. answers and suggestions are always good instead of saying blanket 'meeeh learn to play your toon better'. what's a good tank do that makes them good?</blockquote><p>Holding aggro, pulling, and positioning seem to be the most important from what I have seen others say (and based on what seems to get the most feedback).</p><p>Holding aggro can usually be accomplished by keeping your gear up to date, and using your taunts as quickly as possilbe followed by whatever big attacks you have for snap aggro (this is diff per class).  If you are having trouble with a particular DPSer, ask them to give you a second or two before they engage, this is usually enough.</p><p>Pulling is a whole other topic, but basically if you are in a dungeon you should be body pulling.  If people are hitting the mob before you get back, explain that you are body pulling and they need to wait until you get the mob back and positioned.  If they don't listen be vocal about using your rescues.  If they still don't listen, well you can only rescue so much before they are all down and someone is taking a dirt nap.  Never burn your last rescue on a bad DPSer, save it for someone who isn't just going to take aggro right back and deserves saving.</p><p>Positioning is not just spinning the mob, it is where you set up the party, keeping an eye out for wanderers, hitting said wanderers with AoEs before they eat someone they shouldn't be.  If possible spin the mob.  It helps everyone in the party (including you), and is usually viewed as a great thing by many.  If the party won't give you time to spin the mob before engaging (yes this inludes debuffing) then don't spin it.  Set your group up relatively near where you are pulling.  Obviously not close enough to pick up wanderers or aggro, but close enough that you aren't in yellow by the time you get to them.  A yellow tank freaks people out and they will NOT give you the time you need to plant the mob where you want it.  Wanderer's are a particularly sticky pickle.  If you have crowd control do NOT use an AoE to pick them up that has a DoT in it.  Your CC will shoot you dirty looks that you can feel even though you can't see them (honestly I can feel my normal Coercer's and he is in another country).  Try not to switch targets as some people target through you and they will switch with you and cast spells that then hit and break the CC.  Others use assist buttons and they won't know you switched back.  Don't burn your AoEs unless there is a wanderer and try to always keep at least one in reserve.  Call your target with an assist button if you do switch targets permanently for whatever reason.  When more than 2 mobs are present after one dies use your assist button so everyone knows which one you are going to.</p><p>Last but not least, don't worry about the parse.  You are tanking not DPSing.  While the two do go together to an extent, when you start neglecting taunts to parse better, when you start dropping every AoE just to parse better you are asking for trouble.  All that matters is that the mob stays on you and that you don't die.  Whatever it takes to get that done is what you should do.</p>

Slapfish
06-02-2008, 03:28 PM
<p>It's a sad day indeed when the meat and potatoes of MMORPG's is now a utility class, but that's what has happened.  I was joking with a friend the other day that we should level up a healer/tank combo and hire them out. When I saw the title of the thread WTB Tank well....I thought maybe someone else had the same idea. </p>

Marfoir
06-02-2008, 03:29 PM
Any raid guilds on Butcherblock need a Brig and Defiler <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> we are eastern time and do not care about learning the raids, all we ask is that you raid T8 content, raid at least 3 times a week, raid start time around 7ish EDT and generally are pretty friendly

therodge
06-02-2008, 03:36 PM
<p>well heres the problem looking at server stats tanks are not nessicarily lower then any other archetype population, their are 3 contirbuting factors.</p><p>1. most tanks in any type of raid guild will only do guild groups (which sucks up 80% of anyone who is better then just an ok tank)</p><p>2. as a tank you have a literal crap ton of pressure, if a dps sucks, group can pick up the slack, if healer sucks group can pick up the slack, if tank, sucks they are compleatly aware of the fact the tank sucks. if you cant dps most people wont notice if not parseing, if healer sucks, wont matter as long as dps is crazy and you got a decent tank, and if you dont have crazy dps, you now suck becuase your mit isnt high enough for the healer to keep you up.</p><p>3. to be a tank probobly takes more multitasking then anyother class to be conicdered an acceptable tank, you have to keep your dps up,( for agro) hold agro (which isnt just dps anymore with groupies doing 3k+ parses) turn the mob, pull the mob make sure the mob is in the right spot,  if an add comes you have to get agro on THAT mob and turn it without messing up the others location. oh and genrally know every encounter and every twist and turn in every zone in game BEFORE you get their. cant do any of the above, gratz you are now concidered a [Removed for Content] tank</p><p>i am an 80 paladin, i am a good tank, i am not a supra awesome pwn everything ever tank, but i can hold my own, with that being said, i hit 80 and about a week later i got asked to tank maidens, i had the mit and avoidance but have never been their, didnt know the zone or strats, well we fought are way through tooth and nail, we died 4 times (i agroed first named in room, the mouth thing with teeth) once, sandstorm twice and drusella twice, we cleared zone, i called back and 15 min later, i got two mails, both saying i was on their ignore list and should learn to tank. why? becuase it was my first time in zone didnt know the strats didnt know the zone, am i acually a bad tank. no, but becuase of the circustances i was perceived as one, its alot of pressure, problem is most groups through maidens or chelsith wont allow two tanks so you have to learn those tougher zones your first time through often with very little help.</p><p>tanking is a pain, i acually dislike it, and have been a paladin since almost day one, expecially in teir 8 were the whole group has to pay attention or your screwed. that being said, im acually rolling a brig my paladin will always be my main, but the brig is a nice excape. </p>

Jesdyr
06-02-2008, 03:36 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Wanderer's are a particularly sticky pickle.  If you have crowd control do NOT use an AoE to pick them up that has a DoT in it.  Your CC will shoot you dirty looks that you can feel even though you can't see them (honestly I can feel my normal Coercer's and he is in another country). </blockquote>LOL ... I always figured there was an unspoken deal between enchanters and tanks. We will mez as we feel is needed and you can wake them when you want, if you AE and Dot them, that must mean you want to tank them <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Razlath
06-02-2008, 03:42 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Wanderer's are a particularly sticky pickle.  If you have crowd control do NOT use an AoE to pick them up that has a DoT in it.  Your CC will shoot you dirty looks that you can feel even though you can't see them (honestly I can feel my normal Coercer's and he is in another country). </blockquote>LOL ... I always figured there was an unspoken deal between enchanters and tanks. We will mez as we feel is needed and you can wake them when you want, if you AE and Dot them, that must mean you want to tank them <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> </blockquote>LOL too true!  I did it so much at first, I think my coercer just learned how long my dots last.  No he just waits and casts a different mez after 10 seconds I guess.  ;}  I never seemed to wake them up twice, and they always went back to sleep just as my dot ended.  ;}  Of course we have been playing together since pretty much lvl 1 so I think we have learned.  Now I just do my best to not hit those AoE dots anymore, but every now and then they slip out.  ;}

Arkinon
06-02-2008, 04:03 PM
<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>well heres the problem looking at server stats tanks are not nessicarily lower then any other archetype population, their are 3 contirbuting factors.</p><p>1. most tanks in any type of raid guild will only do guild groups (which sucks up 80% of anyone who is better then just an ok tank)</p><p>2. as a tank you have a literal crap ton of pressure, if a dps sucks, group can pick up the slack, if healer sucks group can pick up the slack, if tank, sucks they are compleatly aware of the fact the tank sucks. if you cant dps most people wont notice if not parseing, if healer sucks, wont matter as long as dps is crazy and you got a decent tank, and if you dont have crazy dps, you now suck becuase your mit isnt high enough for the healer to keep you up.</p><p>3. to be a tank probobly takes more multitasking then anyother class to be conicdered an acceptable tank, you have to keep your dps up,( for agro) hold agro (which isnt just dps anymore with groupies doing 3k+ parses) turn the mob, pull the mob make sure the mob is in the right spot,  if an add comes you have to get agro on THAT mob and turn it without messing up the others location. oh and genrally know every encounter and every twist and turn in every zone in game BEFORE you get their. cant do any of the above, gratz you are now concidered a [I cannot control my vocabulary] tank</p><p>i am an 80 paladin, i am a good tank, i am not a supra awesome pwn everything ever tank, but i can hold my own, with that being said, i hit 80 and about a week later i got asked to tank maidens, i had the mit and avoidance but have never been their, didnt know the zone or strats, well we fought are way through tooth and nail, we died 4 times (i agroed first named in room, the mouth thing with teeth) once, sandstorm twice and drusella twice, we cleared zone, i called back and 15 min later, i got two mails, both saying i was on their ignore list and should learn to tank. why? becuase it was my first time in zone didnt know the strats didnt know the zone, am i acually a bad tank. no, but becuase of the circustances i was perceived as one, its alot of pressure, problem is most groups through maidens or chelsith wont allow two tanks so you have to learn those tougher zones your first time through often with very little help.</p><p>tanking is a pain, i acually dislike it, and have been a paladin since almost day one, expecially in teir 8 were the whole group has to pay attention or your screwed. that being said, im acually rolling a brig my paladin will always be my main, but the brig is a nice excape. </p></blockquote>Nearly the same situation. Now a days I know all the instances and have done them so many times I could do them in my sleep. But I still have bad days and screw up a pull or hit a mezzed mob. it happens. But as long as people want someone to blame ... the tank will be it.

azekah
06-02-2008, 04:21 PM
I dual box mostly (brig/ward) and have MT and MH groups a few times. It's not easy, but it's doable.The other day we had a fury in our group... So the brig is a pretty good tank, but aoe is not his specialty (Only 1 aoe which I reduced to 20s recast). The stupid fury casted an aoe at the beginning of every pull and would get at least 1 or 2 mobs on him. Honestly it didn't bother me that much because I refused to heal him, I just let him take care of that, but other than that, it's not too bad.Tanking is can be demanding, but cmon, this game as a whole isn't really that hard. The "difficult" part is gaining the correct "knowledge" on how to play.EQII was my first MMO, and of course I for my first character I rolled a tank :0 (I didn't even know what that meant) It was hard at first, but the more I played the more I learned. I learned the most from other helpful players who gave me guidance and instruction along the way. Eventually I became, at least what I think, a pretty good tank, because for the most part I know what I'm doin.If you find a "bad tank" at least try and give him some advice. If he is unwilling to take constructive critisizm then just add him to your ingore list. If you find yourself unable to find a good tank you have a few choices. Solo, roll a tank, 2 box (my fav <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> ), try and find a guild with lots of tanks, play Counter-Strike, or whatever else you think might help you.This is an MMO, which means you get stuck with other people, some are good and some are bad, but hopefully you find a good balance there somewhere...

Arinwulf
06-02-2008, 07:00 PM
<p>The current tank situation is partially the blame of SOE devs. In both EQ1 and EQ2, SOE devs have shown utter contempt for the plate wearing melee.  The ONLY role they see a plate wearing melee is at meat shield. And if you want to raid or even group in some places, and if you are not the tank, there is NO role for you.  (Of course it didn't start out that way in EQ2, but the scout and caster classes whined pitifully that they should be at the top of the DPS list and plate melee got nerfed to the stone age.)  </p><p>The other people to blame for this situation is you, dear player of non plate wearers.  You have made tanking for you a bloody nightmare. You blame the tank for everything but in reality its you not waiting for the call-in, not even waiting for the tank to hit the mob after a proxi pull, whining about positioning as if there is a hard and fast rule about it. (really, I read the thread on mob positioning and if anyone thinks one rule will work for all situations, then they are noobs in the brain)</p><p>SO people are not playing their plate melee anymore or nowhere near as much. And all you finger wagglers and arrow chuckers are finding it hard to find someone that wants the job of meat shield. Gee, what a surprise.</p><p>For all you people that like to play heavily armored melee classes, you should know there a lot of games out there where you can do that.  Unfortunately until SOE devs pull their heads out, EQ2 is NOT that game.</p>

Windowlicker
06-02-2008, 07:23 PM
Why would I run instances on my tank when there's no real reason to once I've picked up the drops?  There's only a couple instance level drops worthwhile to a tank, and it's not like masters drop or anything.Now maybe if there was a snowballs chance in hell of a master dropping I might, but why bother as things sit now?  I only log him on to tank the odd raid or help a friend.

Jesdyr
06-03-2008, 02:39 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now maybe if there was a snowballs chance in hell of a master dropping I might, </blockquote>Umm .. I have had masters drop in every RoK zone aside from Kunzar and fens. (yah I got lucky and had trash masters in overland zones). I have been on runs in MC that had 3 masters in one run. So yes they do drop in the instance zones.

Ravaan
06-03-2008, 04:53 PM
<cite>Arinwulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For all you people that like to play heavily armored melee classes, you should know there a lot of games out there where you can do that.  Unfortunately until SOE devs pull their heads out, EQ2 is NOT that game.</p></blockquote><p>amen to that, if you want to have fun playing a tank ... EQ2 is not the game for you. I have a level 80 paladin that i ONLY bring out for specific people IN MY GUILD ... or friends. I flat out refuse to tank unless its for them because I have seen what others in my guild say in guild chat about tanks and PUGs?!?! lol I wouldn't even take my tank near one. All i need is for one uber finger wiggler to throw out a parse and then my job goes to hell.</p><p>assassins will be using Decap on incoming, wizards will be throwing out Fission as i set up and healers will go into DPS mode ....</p><p>and then as soon as they die the next message is "OMG [Removed for Content] TAUNT!". So now i just do what everyone else has done ... rolled a DPSer. my playtime is much more carefree where the only thing i have to worry about is if the mob dies (and watching my agro .. hell it was funny i was told by a tank that i was the first scout to apologize to him for drawing agro).</p><p>its amazing that people who complain about the lack of tanks don't have a tank of thier own ... gee i wonder why? </p><p>This is by far the worst game i have ever played in the way of tanking I tanked in DAOC and even somewhat in WoW and never had as much crap thrown at me as i do here.</p>

Sheridan-Guk
06-03-2008, 06:04 PM
<p>You are all right about giving advice. It falls on deaf ears. I had a tank last week who was in HoF for the first time. A couple of us in group told her that the mobs knock back. When that didn't seem to register, we asked her to plant her back on a wall. That didn't sink in either. We spent half the zone chasing the backsides of mobs as the tank bounced around. Eventually she asked, "Why didn't you tell me these knock me in the air?" ...</p><p>Now, the good tanks... they find the best healers and pair up. They get to know the best dps and they send tells to make groups. If I ask for people in channel, it is because my friends list didn't fill the group that day.</p>

Windowlicker
06-03-2008, 06:15 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now maybe if there was a snowballs chance in hell of a master dropping I might, </blockquote>Umm .. I have had masters drop in every RoK zone aside from Kunzar and fens. (yah I got lucky and had trash masters in overland zones). I have been on runs in MC that had 3 masters in one run. So yes they do drop in the instance zones.</blockquote>I think maybe your playing another game that you THINK is EQ2.  Are you sure you aren't in EQ1, and you just think it's this game?By all means, give me a comprehensive list of all your 70 to 75 masters.  You'll really be lucky if it's 1 or 2 long.  Just because you've had *a* master drop since RoK release is no indication the drop rate is fine.Masters are *still* being discovered, It's June.  That's absolutely broken and stupid that the developers of this game haven't addressed it yet.

RingleToo
06-03-2008, 06:30 PM
<p>Tanks do carry the bulk of the responsibility for how successful a group is, and they do get unfairly blamed when things go belly up. But not by, I think, anyone who knows how to play their toon and understands group dynamics. If a group wipes, most of the time you know why, and you know whether or not it was because of the tank. And if a group is consistently wiping, it becomes even more obvious what the problem is. You know if it's a dps issue or bad healing or someone not able to control aggro. </p><p>So, for all you good tanks who get unfairly blamed, know that you're being blamed by someone who doesn't know what's what anyway.</p>

SisterTheresa
06-03-2008, 06:42 PM
<cite>funkmasterflex wrote:</cite><blockquote>so how does one get to be considered a great tank? i actually rolled a tank and am only up to lvl 5 and have been digging it so far though ive yet to group or twink it or any of that jazz.  if someone's got a new tank what are the groups looking for? i see alot of grief in groups and around the game but there's not alot of feedback what would be good. answers and suggestions are always good instead of saying blanket 'meeeh learn to play your toon better'. what's a good tank do that makes them good?</blockquote><p>And gear, which I am suprised no one stated.  Especially if you are a plate tank, either become an armorer and make that MC armors or get a friend.  Also AD3s are needed especially with your taunts.  I go the same route with my Templar and her heals.</p><p>I do agree that it is simple to hit 30 quickly.  All solo, I think many who are bad tanks or any class just don't know how to work in a social setting as a group.  Practice!</p>

liveja
06-03-2008, 07:07 PM
<cite>Ravaan wrote:</cite><blockquote>if you want to have fun playing a tank ... EQ2 is not the game for you. </blockquote><p>I'd say that if you want to have fun playing a tank in EQ2, then do it with friends &/or guildies. My guildie Zerker loves tanking for us, & frankly, even as a non-tanking Swashy, I enjoy tanking for my guildies, & none of us ever givee any other grief for a bad pull or a party wipe.</p><p>Frankly, I think it's low-class & a waste of time to berate other players when things go wrong. It's just a freekin' game.</p>

Margen
06-03-2008, 07:53 PM
<p>As someone that plays a tank and a dps class, I can say with total honesty that tanking is MUCH more difficult, I am not saying its like splitting the atom, but it sure is more difficult then dpsing.</p><p>We have to pull intelligently, try maintain agro against dps classes that seem to want to go nuts all the time.  Try pulling in a consistant manor, keeping the pace fast but also keeping an eye on healers power.  Try postioning mobs, whatching for adds and etc...!!!!</p><p>If you make a mistake, and your not tanking for guildies, you will get hammered half the time by the people in your group.  Heck you get hammered even if it isn't your fault.  One reason I avoid PUGs like the plauge!</p><p>Many people keep talking about bad tanks, yeah they are out there.   But there is just as many if not more bad dps and healers!</p><p>Plus tanking is a dead end job, unless you play a guardian or monk your not going to raid much.  If too many show up for the raid, the first people told to sit are going to be the tanks in most guilds. Reson I leveled a Swashy.</p><p>So people either only tank for guildies due to not having the headackes of trying to tank a pug group, have retired their tanks for other classes, or moved on to other games.</p><p>Sony is to blame for alot of these problems, but alot of the non-tanking player base shares the blame also.  </p>

LordPazuzu
06-03-2008, 08:41 PM
I wouldn't say tanking is hard, but out of the various group roles, it's definitely the most work.

denmom
06-03-2008, 09:05 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now maybe if there was a snowballs chance in hell of a master dropping I might, </blockquote>Umm .. I have had masters drop in every RoK zone aside from Kunzar and fens. (yah I got lucky and had trash masters in overland zones). I have been on runs in MC that had 3 masters in one run. So yes they do drop in the instance zones.</blockquote>I think maybe your playing another game that you THINK is EQ2.  Are you sure you aren't in EQ1, and you just think it's this game?By all means, give me a comprehensive list of all your 70 to 75 masters.  You'll really be lucky if it's 1 or 2 long.  Just because you've had *a* master drop since RoK release is no indication the drop rate is fine.Masters are *still* being discovered, It's June.  That's absolutely broken and stupid that the developers of this game haven't addressed it yet.</blockquote>Actually, there's a new instance where masters are part of the loot table, Runny Eye: The Gathering releases in GU 46 this month.The dev Kander actually has given a little info about it in this thread:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=419270" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=419270</a>He has stated that 71-79 masters will drop in RE: TG.So yes, it's a start, and a dev is addressing the problem.

magistar
06-04-2008, 12:17 AM
I have an 80 Guardian, and I have mostly stopped playing it because raid nights rolled around and our guild has a MT. Grouping is fun, but even in groups, theres no spot for Guard #2. So now I am playing my Coercer who is up to 54. I played an ench in EQ1 for 8 years but held off in EQ2. Its been a BLAST and I havent played the guardian much in the last month. If guildies need a tank and I'm not doing a group already I'll log in but I dont bother to log in and go LFG anymore.

Oisin
06-04-2008, 01:08 AM
Tanks do have it bad in this game, but healers have it just as bad.  That's why nobody plays either anymore.  Here's something else to consider too...  There is almost nowhere to group at all anymore prior to ROK instances.  So, where is anyone with a tank alt going to get some practice tanking before getting near the max lvl?

Rahatmattata
06-04-2008, 02:22 AM
I have a few ideas why good tanks are rare...Tanking is hard. It requires superb gear, in-depth knowledge of zones and encounters, and the tank is pretty much the leader of the group. (ever been with a tank that doesn't know where to go and just stands there 30 seconds after each pull? ugh). You must also have enough threat to hold aggro while maintaining enough survivability to not die. Ever tanked for a raid equipped group buffed with illy and no transfer/threat gen for tank... then get told you suck.. fun times.If the group sucks and just doesn't go well, the tank better be able to take some angry glares.For many people, at level 80/140 once you have run all the group zones and gotten the best you can get for every slot, there is nothing left but raiding. If you are a tank and lucky enough to get a raid spot most likely you won't be the MT. Playing a tank in a raid if you aren't tanking is pretty boring.Then you also have guild drama. This doesn't just include tanks really, but as a tank it is much harder to just drop your guild and app elsewhere... if you are a tank and get a spot in a raid guild that can kill stuff, you don't leave unless really pushed. Many guilds roll with very few tanks. Guildies will "use" you for everything they could possibly need because well, they only have a couple tanks available to them. When they are done with you they are often "too busy atm" to help with things you need. Ever been a MT in a guild and get demoted to OT because random guild officer B decided to power level a guardian and be the MT? Ever help half your guild with Chardok/Sebilis/Chelsith and other amazingly boring T7 zones for epic updates only to get pure silence in guildchat/vent when you ask for a little help to camp the queen for incarnadine earring?So what do some of the good tanks do? Quit, re-roll, or play with guildies only. Personally, I play a tank and am in a guild that raids. I tank a lot of stuff for my guild and help out when asked, but I also put up my /lfg flag and will join pugs. I will mentor for fallen gate groups and general drull bsv groups because I have nothing better to do outside of raid time. There have been a few times I wanted to quit but I like tanking more than anything else in eq2, so I've stuck it out. I consider myself a good tank (def not the best), and have gotten over the snide remarks and angry glares in random pugs. Yes, sometimes I still to this day wipe groups, even my whole raid by a boneheaded move. It doesn't happen often but I've had my days.Even though I will join pugs, I refuse to start them. I feel bad enough if the group is a failure without also being the guy that put the group together. There are 2 or 3 people I have joined a few of their groups and every time, it just doesn't go well. Don't know why that is... group setup seems decent, noone is doing anything blatently stupid, but every time the group just sucks. So I don't ask to join their groups anymore, and politely decline when invited. Anyway, tanking isn't for everyone and it is IMO the most challenging thing you can do in eq2. Grouping is a teamwork thing, but a lot of it does rely on your tank. As a tank you have 5-23 other people watching your every move. Everything you do, every button you push is going to sway their decision from this tank rocks to this tank is on /ignore. And with such a small community, word spreads fast either way. Thankfully I have a pretty decent rep thus far.

SugarGirl
06-04-2008, 02:25 AM
<p>For all the reasons stated previously, I shelved my tank at 74 and went with a Dirge. I think you won't see many plate tanks LFPUG anymore. The ones that stayed are the ones that got the MT or OT spots with their guilds. The rest of us got sick of waiting.</p><p> Maybe someday if things get evened out and there isn't such a need for 4 healers, 19 DPSers, and one Guard in raids, then you might see more tanks coming back to the game.. for now, I don't expect too much.</p>

Rahatmattata
06-04-2008, 02:46 AM
<cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe someday if things get evened out and there isn't such a need for 4 healers, 19 DPSers, and one Guard in raids, then you might see more tanks coming back to the game.. for now, I don't expect too much.</p></blockquote>Won't be killing much in RoK with that setup. You need a good bit of split tanking. I think the best bet for tanks trying to get in raid guilds is to work on building a good reputation. Be a good tank and join lots of pugs. It takes time but people start to know you and a spot opens up in a guild and voila there you go.

DwarvesR
06-04-2008, 02:56 AM
<p>Dang.  Just typed out a long post and the forum ate it.  Gist of it was:</p><p>I have a 74 SK and have been told I do really well with it in groups.  But even so, I prefer to simply solo on it and only bring it out if someone in guild needs help with something and needs a tank.</p><p>Something that I do with my tank is that I macro all my hate tools to include an announcement in to group and/or an /emote so that the group has some sort of feedback to let them know I am actively using my hate increasers.  I think half the dps's cries of "OMG!  TAUNT!" come from not really having any way to know that you're trying to get aggro back off them, so with the /emotes and /gsay announcements I can point out that I was doing my darndest and there's a record right there that anyone can scroll back through.</p><p>And now for the anecdote:</p><p>Ran CoA today on my 75 coercer.  We had an 80 zerk for tank.  Also had a swashie in group so the tank had some good buffage and transfer on him.  The tank was good with his pacing, quite good with his pulls, and we cleared the zone in good time with no deaths.</p><p>But he kept losing aggro left and right.  Even with 18% of the swashie's hate.  Even with 15% of mine.  And a 15% buff on his hate generation.  Scarily enough, it was usually the healer or me that got aggro.  The healer was pre-warding, so on pull sometimes the ward would go off and the mob would peel for the healer, but the tnak usually managed to get that right back.  But about every 3rd or 4th fight it seemed that the mob would peel to me after I cast a debuff and 1 damage spell when the mob was already down to about 85%.  No biggie, I'd just stun it and the dps would burn it down before the stun wore off.  He was obviously frustrated by it as he spoke in guild chat about us verifying our buffs on him (which we did and they were all there).  But even so, I still seemed to get the mobs rather easily, in spite of not doing much to them.</p><p>And so, even though it was a highly successful run with no deaths, and lots of decent loot and even a level 76 mystic master dropping, I still came away from it feeling like I'd been with a bad tank.</p><p>And that's sad, because I know he wasn't a bad one.  But I still felt like he was anyway due to the aggro issues we were having.</p><p>He was "good" but he wasn't "perfect" so that made him "bad."  Evne though I know from my own experience as a tank as to what he's dealing with.  If I can feel like that, then I can easily imagine "everyone else" feeling like that too.</p><p>Is the "perfect" the enemy of the "good" in this game and thus all the pressure on tanks to be "perfect?"</p>

therodge
06-04-2008, 03:09 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dang.  Just typed out a long post and the forum ate it.  Gist of it was:</p><p>I have a 74 SK and have been told I do really well with it in groups.  But even so, I prefer to simply solo on it and only bring it out if someone in guild needs help with something and needs a tank.</p><p>Something that I do with my tank is that I macro all my hate tools to include an announcement in to group and/or an /emote so that the group has some sort of feedback to let them know I am actively using my hate increasers.  I think half the dps's cries of "OMG!  TAUNT!" come from not really having any way to know that you're trying to get aggro back off them, so with the /emotes and /gsay announcements I can point out that I was doing my darndest and there's a record right there that anyone can scroll back through.</p><p>And now for the anecdote:</p><p>Ran CoA today on my 75 coercer.  We had an 80 zerk for tank.  Also had a swashie in group so the tank had some good buffage and transfer on him.  The tank was good with his pacing, quite good with his pulls, and we cleared the zone in good time with no deaths.</p><p>But he kept losing aggro left and right.  Even with 18% of the swashie's hate.  Even with 15% of mine.  And a 15% buff on his hate generation.  Scarily enough, it was usually the healer or me that got aggro.  The healer was pre-warding, so on pull sometimes the ward would go off and the mob would peel for the healer, but the tnak usually managed to get that right back.  But about every 3rd or 4th fight it seemed that the mob would peel to me after I cast a debuff and 1 damage spell when the mob was already down to about 85%.  No biggie, I'd just stun it and the dps would burn it down before the stun wore off.  He was obviously frustrated by it as he spoke in guild chat about us verifying our buffs on him (which we did and they were all there).  But even so, I still seemed to get the mobs rather easily, in spite of not doing much to them.</p><p>And so, even though it was a highly successful run with no deaths, and lots of decent loot and even a level 76 mystic master dropping, I still came away from it feeling like I'd been with a bad tank.</p><p>And that's sad, because I know he wasn't a bad one.  But I still felt like he was anyway due to the aggro issues we were having.</p><p>He was "good" but he wasn't "perfect" so that made him "bad."  Evne though I know from my own experience as a tank as to what he's dealing with.  If I can feel like that, then I can easily imagine "everyone else" feeling like that too.</p><p>Is the "perfect" the enemy of the "good" in this game and thus all the pressure on tanks to be "perfect?"</p></blockquote>sounds about right, but funny thing is as a tank i find myself to be my own worst critic, and pone of the worst critics of other tanks

liveja
06-04-2008, 10:17 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ran CoA today on my 75 coercer. We had an 80 zerk for tank. Also had a swashie in group so the tank had some good buffage and transfer on him. The tank was good with his pacing, quite good with his pulls, and we cleared the zone in good time with no deaths.</p><p>But he kept losing aggro left and right. </p></blockquote><p>That's interesting, because just a few days ago my little guild ran COA with an 80 Zerker tanking. Group was (I think) Zerker, Swashy (me), Fury, Warden, Monk, Conjie. The Zerker never lost aggro, even with just my 19% hate transfer -- if your Swashy only has 18% something is wrong, it should be 19% at M2 -- & no other hate transfer on her.</p>

Jesdyr
06-04-2008, 12:50 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> But even so, I still seemed to get the mobs rather easily, in spite of not doing much to them.</p></blockquote>If your casting order is anything like mine ... You will buff/debuff/stack reactives/nukenukenuke ... The problem is that while your DPS over the fight will be xxxx, most of that damage is burst in a small part of the fight. I have had some 80 guards I could pull aggro from every pull if I was using my "best" casting order. Which is ok because I just weave a stun in there and there is no danger. The reason for this difference is tanks is that the better ones have more masters and better gear. They have also put much more effort into figuring out how to generate the most hate they can.

Esmunin
06-04-2008, 02:55 PM
<p><i>Body pulling is a counter intuitive skill, that you have no reason to develop unless someone explains it to you.  Wait, you mean if I run up to the mob and then run away he will come by himself, but if I shoot him with a nice stealthy arrow he brings his friends?  That doesn't make any sense!  It is pretty simple.  Tank pulls poorly.</i> </p><p>Amen.  I came from EQ, and body pulling is the exact wrong thing to do in that game. Unless you were a monk fd pulling, you would always prefer to plink an arrow into a mob rather than run right up to it. Occasionally you needed a Soothe, but just running up to the group of mobs was suicide.</p><p>The first time I went to pull from a group, the partner I was with told me to body pull, and I thought he was nuts <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p> Taking the time to explain things like this politely to new people is the way you make them better tanks. Screaming at them or refusing to group with them with no explanation isn't going to help anybody, including you. A few minutes today could secure a good tank for you a few months from now.</p>

zormik
06-05-2008, 06:47 AM
<p>It's an issue pretty easy to answer too.  Tanks like  to roll with people they know and therefor prefer to roll with people from their guild.  Hell, i have a zerk that used to be my main and is T8 raidequiped with mythical and all that.  not a hair on my head that would consider rolling with a pug.  Cause well, it's rare to find good players that know how to play the game.  If i'd do a pug with a not geared tank on my illusionist i'd be [Removed for Content] the tank off cause i'd be pulling aggro non stop.  So to conclude.  Most players that know how to play will avoid pug's and will tank/play with guildgroups.</p><p>Espescially as a tank i'd hate to tank for a pug (you always feel more responsable as a tank).  As an illu you can go more in easy mode and just tag aslong trying  to hold back.</p>

Dwergux
06-05-2008, 08:21 AM
<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ha!I was in a  horrible group once. The tank matched some of your descriptions exactly so I decided to bail.The funny thing was, after I mention I have to go, he says, "This is why I hate PUG's"I literally rofl, then cried, then logged off and watched TV...</blockquote>At least you had fun and laughed <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

erin
06-05-2008, 09:12 AM
<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Evilgamer, I knew that you would stick your head in here.  Did you really say that, "any good serious players will want to raid in EQ2"?  That's kind of funny.  </p><p>I hope that you have your flame suit on...</p></blockquote><p>I believe that is a fairly accruate statement.  Sure not every good player will want to raid, but for the most part I would say that in general most people do want to raid some, most not hardcore or anything, but I seriously doubt most peeps rolled their toons to do strictly group content.  I am sure some did, but I would reckon most did not.</p><p>Like I said the key word here is most, but not all.  I am not talking in absolutes.</p></blockquote>What do you base this on?  I know a ton of people that did in fact roll a toon to NOT raid.  Raiding holds no interest for them.  In your eyes, apparently that automatically makes them bad players.  Raiding takes time and dedication that many of us would rather not put into a hobby.  Whether you say you talk in absolutes or not, it sure still sounds like you are.

erin
06-05-2008, 09:16 AM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Healer not paying attention - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>2) DPS launches highest nukes at start of the fight - dies - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>3) Group gets add - Chanter Mezes - DPS break mez - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>4) Tank doesn't raid - Gear only moderate - group moves a little slower than usual - Group breaks up - Tank Blamed</p><p>5) Tank is nervous because it's his first time in this particular instance - Doesn't always turn the mob because he's worried about getting adds - Scouts get mad - Tank Blamed</p><p>6) Raid spots are limited to 2 maybe 3 spots if bodies are needed to fill raid </p><p>Would you want to play a tank?</p></blockquote>Funny.  I play a healer when I do PUGs.1) Healer gets blamed.  Tank gets [Removed for Content]2) Healer gets blamed "why didn't you heal me" says the DPS.3)healer gets blamed "why didn't you heal me" says the tank.4) yeah ok, here the tank gets the blame, sometimes.  Most times the healer though "man you suck, with my buddy healing we do this place in half the time"5) tank gets blamed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

evilgamer
06-05-2008, 10:06 AM
<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Evilgamer, I knew that you would stick your head in here.  Did you really say that, "any good serious players will want to raid in EQ2"?  That's kind of funny.  </p><p>I hope that you have your flame suit on...</p></blockquote><p>I believe that is a fairly accruate statement.  Sure not every good player will want to raid, but for the most part I would say that in general most people do want to raid some, most not hardcore or anything, but I seriously doubt most peeps rolled their toons to do strictly group content.  I am sure some did, but I would reckon most did not.</p><p>Like I said the key word here is most, but not all.  I am not talking in absolutes.</p></blockquote>What do you base this on?  I know a ton of people that did in fact roll a toon to NOT raid.  Raiding holds no interest for them.  In your eyes, apparently that automatically makes them bad players.  Raiding takes time and dedication that many of us would rather not put into a hobby.  Whether you say you talk in absolutes or not, it sure still sounds like you are.</blockquote><p>OMG can you make any larger strawman arguement?</p><p>Please show me where I once said "not raiding = bad player".</p><p>Are you purposely trying to derail this thread?</p>

erin
06-05-2008, 10:13 AM
<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Evilgamer, I knew that you would stick your head in here.  Did you really say that, "any good serious players will want to raid in EQ2"?  That's kind of funny.  </p><p>I hope that you have your flame suit on...</p></blockquote><p>I believe that is a fairly accruate statement.  Sure not every good player will want to raid, but for the most part I would say that in general most people do want to raid some, most not hardcore or anything, but I seriously doubt most peeps rolled their toons to do strictly group content.  I am sure some did, but I would reckon most did not.</p><p>Like I said the key word here is most, but not all.  I am not talking in absolutes.</p></blockquote>What do you base this on?  I know a ton of people that did in fact roll a toon to NOT raid.  Raiding holds no interest for them.  In your eyes, apparently that automatically makes them bad players.  Raiding takes time and dedication that many of us would rather not put into a hobby.  Whether you say you talk in absolutes or not, it sure still sounds like you are.</blockquote><p>OMG can you make any larger strawman arguement?</p><p>Please show me where I once said "not raiding = bad player".</p><p>Are you purposely trying to derail this thread?</p></blockquote>Ummm maybe the part where you basically said "good player = raider"?

liveja
06-05-2008, 10:27 AM
<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ummm maybe the part where you basically said "good player = raider"?</blockquote><p>Actually, he didn't say that. He said that not every good player will want to -- meaning there are good players who don't want to raid at all -- but that most players probably do, whether they are good players or not. That is not the same as saying that good players are raiders & that non-raiders, by implication, are not good players.</p><p>FWIW, I think he's wrong, but that's beside the point. I think most players want to see all of the game world, but not necessarily in raids.</p><p>As for the thread: every raid I've ever been on was as "back fill" for a guild that needed a few more warm bodies to fill the slots. Every one of those raids had at least 3 fighters in it, & usually more like 5-6. What people are mostly talking about is the uber-raiders that min/max their raid forces to squeeze every last bit of efficiency from each player. But I'd wager that those raids are a minority, & that while they may be more "successful", they're not the only way to raid, & they're not, IMHO, the standard to which the rest of the game should be balanced.</p>

evilgamer
06-05-2008, 10:28 AM
<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ummm maybe the part where you basically said "good player = raider"?</blockquote><p>I never once said good player = raider.</p><p>I think I know better myself about what I did and did not say then you.</p><p>Can you please show me where I said good player = raider?</p><p>The only thing I said was that <b><u>in general</u></b> your better players will want to raid at some point in there in EQ career.</p><p>I then went on to say that pretty much includes everyone and that I was not talking in abosolutes.  Yes I do believe there are great players who do not raid and will never want to raid.</p><p>Please stop trying to create a controversy when there was none.  Thanks</p>

evilgamer
06-05-2008, 10:30 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>FWIW, I think he's wrong, but that's beside the point. I think most players want to see all of the game world, but not necessarily in raids.</blockquote>Which is what I meant, I just worded it poorly.

Jrral
06-05-2008, 11:47 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It's an issue pretty easy to answer too.  Tanks like  to roll with people they know and therefor prefer to roll with people from their guild.  Hell, i have a zerk that used to be my main and is T8 raidequiped with mythical and all that.  not a hair on my head that would consider rolling with a pug.  Cause well, it's rare to find good players that know how to play the game.  If i'd do a pug with a not geared tank on my illusionist i'd be [Removed for Content] the tank off cause i'd be pulling aggro non stop.  So to conclude.  Most players that know how to play will avoid pug's and will tank/play with guildgroups.</p><p>Espescially as a tank i'd hate to tank for a pug (you always feel more responsable as a tank).  As an illu you can go more in easy mode and just tag aslong trying  to hold back.</p></blockquote>Second this. I play a 'zerker, wizard and warden. When tanking I stick to running with people I know, or people who've come with a recommendation from people I know. I've had too many headaches from PUGs, and since I'm rarely in a position where I can't find something to do that doesn't involve a PUG I save myself the cost of the Advil. The exception is short-term stuff, eg. when there's two or three of us who need the same mob or something or a lowbie who needs a quick hand with one specific thing. The tank also usually also has to act as group leader, and there's nothing more aggravating than trying to ride herd on and keep control of people you don't know well. It's much easier with the wizard or warden. I'm sure a lot of tanks think the same way, and in that case there can be plenty of tanks out there but they won't be visible to most of the population.

Jesdyr
06-05-2008, 01:12 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I've had too many headaches from PUGs, and since I'm rarely in a position where I can't find something to do that doesn't involve a PUG I save myself the cost of the Advil. </blockquote>I would say the ratio of good to bad  PUG groups I have been in is like 5:1. Some of the worst runs I have done were when I was the odd man out of a guild group that needed an enchanter. I cannot really fault these groups because more often than not they are just starting that content. However .. I though guild groups were better? ... Sure I have been in the same situation with guilds where everything went perfect, the point is even guild groups can have the same issues as PUGs. Sometimes you join a PUG and get a really bad feeling when you look at the "tank" and he is a 75 Guard that wants to tank VoES and you only have 1 healer ... I figured I might as well give the guy a chance .. Turns out he tanked the place better than some 80s I have been with (I made sure to tell the healer good work<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)  Just play a little more relaxed and it wont be so bad. So the group just wiped because someone made a mistake.. Oh well. I like PUGs .. it can add a little more to running an instance. Now .. the one PAIN is when you get an overly greedy person who rolls on things he/she doesnt need. I have been in a group with anyone who intentionally did something like this so maybe I have been lucky .. or maybe Unrest server just has a low amount of lootwhores.

Trynnus1
06-05-2008, 02:26 PM
<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>SugarGirl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe someday if things get evened out and there isn't such a need for 4 healers, 19 DPSers, and one Guard in raids, then you might see more tanks coming back to the game.. for now, I don't expect too much.</p></blockquote>Won't be killing much in RoK with that setup. You need a good bit of split tanking. I think the best bet for tanks trying to get in raid guilds is to work on building a good reputation. Be a good tank and join lots of pugs. It takes time but people start to know you and a spot opens up in a guild and voila there you go.</blockquote><p>Sorry to say this is not ususally how it works. My Sub runs out shortly and I have said goodbye to my guild. I was the MT as a zerker for over a year. Up until 3 months ago I solo Tanked raids. Why? not that we did not bring several tanks on raids - at least 3 or 4 each raid. But because I was the only one with the gear to do it. This means the best possible gear I could get - pots, adornments, food/drink, etc.  My interest in the game has been waning for a few months and a tank in the guild was interested in tanking raids so I taught. I talk about all the things she now needed to consider that as a group tank really are not necessary.</p><p>As I read through this thread people have commented on the most important thing - Tanks are responsible for the group (or Raid) not matter what - this means pulls, strats, zone knowledge - EVERYTHING. These are what makes a great tank. We burn-out. In the last few months I have been over-joyed to not tank an instance - I get aggro anyways and maybe die, but I dont care as long as I dont wipe the group.</p><p>Raid spots is a major issue as to why there are less great tanks out there. To replace a MT in a guild it will most likely be an alt or someone from a casual raid guild that already has some RoK T1 gear. Otherwise the guild is back in PR for a couple of months to get the gear to progress.</p><p>There is a huge difference between tanking a group zone and a raid zone. I know a fair number of the tanks on my server that I would roll into an instance with in a heart beat with them as the group MT. The list gets VERY short for who I would let MT a raid.</p><p>Good bye and GL to my tank brothers and sisters. Hopefully there are some changes for you all soon. I am out.</p><p>PS - no you cant have my stuff/plat/waht not.</p>

Yarginis
06-06-2008, 06:54 AM
Really it's just a general lack of truly good players, it's just <b>so</b> much more obvious when it's the tank. Normally we have 3-4 of us whom consistently group together for instances, then fill in the last spots with whomever we can find. Luckily with us we have a great tank so we can deal with others being sub-par, but I assure you it is in no way just good tanks that are lacking.We run our groups with great buffs (Troub + Illy) & you would be amazed at the number of dps that can't even keep up with the Troub in dps, even with stacked buffs. (Often the DPS order is Illy, Guard, Troub, other random people with me on the Illy being double or more the others) You just get to the point where you put up with it because well, it's that or grab a healer and 4 man the instances.Just for the hell of it we swapped players around the other night, the Guard played the Troub, and the Troub played a healer. We ended up picking up an SK to tank, & also picked up a Monk as well as a friend came on a Brig. The tank was decent in that they pulled quickly and all, but aggro for the most part was completely bouncing around. Basically how we ended up playing out the night was the tank would pull & hold aggro while he could, while the Brig and I just burned like crazy and stunned the mob when it went on one of us. The healer knew to just heal through the mob, and overall the run was actually quite smooth. (Not record times, but about 20 minutes per instance so not too shabby)Basically the point there is that it seems like more and more lately picking up random people, espesially tanks, is usually a matter or just figuring out what they are good at (in his case he kept the pulls prompt and minimized downtimes) and working around what they aren't (his lack of holding aggro by just stunning and burning the mobs before they caused any harm). It would be wonderful if we could randomly find players that are good at everything their class does, but they are so rare these days that they are for the most part well known already, so if you don't know the person chances are the won't fit into this catagory.Really the best advice for any new tanks that would like to break into this catagory is something like;Assuming you don't have access to raid fabled that is both good for dps and surviveability, get 2 sets of gear. 1 to wear in crappy groups to stay alive & therefore bolster your rep as being able to tank even with a subpar group. The 2nd geared for high dps/aggro to wear in good groups where the mobs will likely die before you could be kill anyways, but it'll take everything you have to hold aggro off the dps, giving yourself a good reputation of being able to hold aggro well off players who can really put out some numbers on the parse.Also, if you are trying to build a rep, and you don't know a zone. Run it on a non-tank alt before you tank it. Getting a good reputation with the better players on your server (which is the key to getting frequent spots in groups, and possibly even a raid if one of their tanks leaves) is going to require you to know the zone layout, mob scripting, and so forth down to a T. Established tanks can afford to learn this on the fly, but a new tank trying to build a rep really needs to know what to do before they ever tank the zone.- For example, going back to body pulling. Knowing when you need to, and when you don't. Also experianced dps will usually have learned the mobs social ranges & be ready to land their 1st attack the moment the mob the mob is outside of social aggro range. As a tank if you want to look good and hold aggro, you need to be able to also. (This means if your 1st attack has a 2 second casting time that you start casting it at least 1.75 seconds before the mob leave social range, because as a DPS I have my attacks timed to this, and if you don't I'll rip)In RoK really judging a players skill comes down to a few basic things depending on thier class;For Tanks; Can you hold aggro? Do you know the zone? Do you move through the zone quickly with little downtime? Do you have at least enough surviveability that the healer can get a heal off before you die? For DPS; Can you parse? (For those that aren't aware the delayed aggro buildup time given to tanks is outdated, in this day it's dps from the word go, and the ultimate test of a tank is can they hold aggro off a Necro pre-casting lifeburn so it starts ticking right on the pull - This 1 is courtesy of a Necro friend who said Lifeburn casting because Jesters Cap is almost out, better pull it fast! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)For Healers; Do you keep the tank alive? Can you also keep a group full of dps wearing Bloodthirsty Chokers alive at the same time?If you can meet these Criteria then chances are you'll be highly prized for groups. If not, then you'll likely fall into a friend of mines so elloquently stated catagory: "Looking for more dps for instances, you'll most likely suck but you can blame it on gear or whatever. Feel free to prove us wrong!" (Btw this was quickly answered by 2 dps whom even with both of their parses added together were still at least 1k behind me)

Sougad
06-06-2008, 09:09 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Healer not paying attention - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>2) DPS launches highest nukes at start of the fight - dies - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>3) Group gets add - Chanter Mezes - DPS break mez - Group Wipes - Tank Blamed</p><p>4) Tank doesn't raid - Gear only moderate - group moves a little slower than usual - Group breaks up - Tank Blamed</p><p>5) Tank is nervous because it's his first time in this particular instance - Doesn't always turn the mob because he's worried about getting adds - Scouts get mad - Tank Blamed</p><p>6) Raid spots are limited to 2 maybe 3 spots if bodies are needed to fill raid </p><p>Would you want to play a tank?</p></blockquote><p>And just to prove how sick I am.  I still answer yes.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />  </p><p>I need help.</p></blockquote>Hehe, Show how sick I am I still am playing a ShadowKnight.

Baratuk
06-06-2008, 09:15 AM
Shadowknight here as well lol.

orchard54
06-06-2008, 10:13 AM
I have a 74 Guardian, I hardly play him much because I rolled a Conj, now its 80 and much better being a guardian. Being able to solo, and dps well in groups and raids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Even I realize playing my Conj at 80, I try to get groups together but there just aren't any tanks. There are a few at some points in time, but its hours and hours and no tanks. Either that or no healers. Maybe I should dust him off and level the slow way in dungeons. Since soloing in kunark would kill me (downtime wise) compared to what I did with my conj.

evilgamer
06-06-2008, 10:15 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Assuming you don't have access to raid fabled that is both good for dps and surviveability, get 2 sets of gear. 1 to wear in crappy groups to stay alive & therefore bolster your rep as being able to tank even with a subpar group. The 2nd geared for high dps/aggro to wear in good groups where the mobs will likely die before you could be kill anyways, but it'll take everything you have to hold aggro off the dps, giving yourself a good reputation of being able to hold aggro well off players who can really put out some numbers on the parse.</blockquote><p>Sorry but screw that.  That is part of the problem alot of dps toon think they can just get a group and then go ballistic on nukes/CA and expect the tank to always hold aggro.</p><p>It just does not work like that.  Even if the tank is well geared and with AD 3 taunts or better dps toons will always be able to snatch aggro if they go ballasitic since 1 point of damage = 1 point of hate, thats just the way the game was designed.</p><p>I think the best taunts in the game only give like 1k ish of hate, wizards can nuke for 10k.</p><p>You do the math.</p><p>Their might be a few uber guardians who are very hard to snatch aggro from, but they are the exception more then the rule.</p>