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View Full Version : Down with the HO


Elro
05-27-2008, 03:57 AM
<p>This is a matter of taste after all: </p><p>Im new I posted a few other posts and this will be one of my last. </p><p>I just think that these HOs are confusing and very awkward. I can understand how they work although it took me a few days on how they work in groups and so on.</p><p>I dont think it fits a warrior to have his dmg coming from a spell like effect. Im doing little dmg when I dont use the HO and that spell it creates ,like an electrical fountain, might be funky but I think it gets ridiculous.</p><p>Well we cant all like this game. I hope you dont feel the same as me coz then you wouldnt wanna play for long.</p><p>Im sure there are some new players who really havent got a clue what to do in group after a while they might stop use them but I strongly got the impression that this is THE KEY element in this game -the combat game.</p><p>Im too conservative anyway . I know that, its terrible.</p><p>I searched this forum and I can see Im not alone. There where some others who had a hard time with it before.</p>

Wilyum
05-27-2008, 05:04 AM
<cite>Elro wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I strongly got the impression that this is THE KEY element in this game -the combat game.</p></blockquote><p>Actually it is not.  I myself rarely use HOs.  In some groups where the pulls are coming left and right the action is to quick to pay attention to HOs.  They are a part of the game that was implemented to help encourage grouping and team work but I honestly disregard it the majority of the time.  It is my impression that alot of others feel the same way.  Otherwise you would hear more chatter about it in the PUG / Raid Chat channel.</p><p>Everyone has their own opinion.  But I hope that you have not decided to give up on the game just because you see spell effects emanating from your Tank.</p>

Daedalus Raistlin
05-27-2008, 05:04 AM
HO's are far from being the main focus. The main focus is on spells/abilities (ie, getting Adept or Master versions), how well you understand your class, and gear (not nessasarily in that order.)HO's simply provide boosts - it may be some extra damage, power regen, health regen, etc. In solo this can help you out a bit, but I mainly just use them so that it removes some of the monoteny of taking down those NPC's.In groups, HO's are worthwile when they are combined (one person starts a HO, another class continues it, and then the blanks are filled in. These group HO's can provide substantial benefits, but they're very rarely the main focus (and if a group relied on them to get through an encounter, they're obviously outclassed.)Try just ignoring the HO popup - not many people bother with them these days, even though it's easier (back at launch, if someone used a different CA/Spell than what was showing, it broke the HO.)If you're looking for some tips on HOs, just remember that when the HO popup is waiting for a spell/CA that you have (and it's your turn or not a turn-based HO), the corresponding spell/CA will flash.It's really not a hard system, it provides a number of benefits if you choose to use it, but those benefits are hardly ground breaking.

DwarvesR
05-27-2008, 07:20 AM
<p>Add in that even if a group is sometimes completing them, it's still quite rare to find a priest that uses their "eye" spells (these tend to be debuffs, so when the HO pops up, they're already cast and don't "flash" on the toolbar), or a fighter that uses their "arm" spell (these are primarily their stances, so again, they're already in one so it doesn't "flash" to show it should be clicked for the HO, in spite of being a toggle and VERY easily double-clicked), or scouts that use their "mask" abilities.</p><p>The 10 second time limit also makes a lot of them unfeasible, especially the ones that have to be completed in order.  It's rare that even a "3 way" HO is completed, much less a full 4-way.  And they're really not a big deal.  Some slight bonuses, but that's it.  No biggie at all.</p>

roces9
05-27-2008, 08:29 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> It's rare that even a "3 way" HO is completed, much less a full 4-way. </p></blockquote>This is completely false. If you get a group with all four archetypes and people that are halfway awake, HOs can be very easy. Some people seem to think that HOs require a lot of skill and coordination, but they just require people that have some vague understanding of the system.IMO, the amount of people that understand/care about HOs has greatly dropped in this expansion. I had a much easier time coordinating them in Unrest runs than I do in Maiden's runs now.

Lasai
05-27-2008, 08:35 AM
<p>People don't stress over HO's like the old days, they are purely situational and really optional now.</p><p>I use them a lot on my Assassin and Brig, Swindler's is worth it and the rare Bravo's even better.</p><p>I don't use them at all on my SK, don't even have the starter up.. Ill hit an art if someone else triggers one, but I don't care for them on her, they interfere with my swing/CA timing, and I burn my taunts as they come up, even solo because of the small dot on the single target and the disease debuff on the multiple.</p>

Pogopuschel
05-27-2008, 08:52 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>IMO, the amount of people that understand/care about HOs has greatly dropped in this expansion. I had a much easier time coordinating them in Unrest runs than I do in Maiden's runs now.</blockquote>The reason for this is simply how insignificant they are.Yes, there's nice effects from HOs, no doubt, but since it's mostly random what you get, losing out on other more reliable things just for an HO would not be wise.

azekah
05-27-2008, 12:17 PM
This topic boggles my mind...Why would anyone NOT use HO's?Especially if your the tank or healer in a group?!? Why would you not want extra aggro/damage/heals or buffs for you and your groupmates?It's not really that hard to click on flashing icons is it?When I'm the MT, I always start a pull with a HO. In fact, I have HO's macrod on all my characters. You know, they made them to be your primary attacks anyway, so it's not like your using some random spell, its one you would be using anyway! (Except of course like every once in a while you get a weird [I cannot control my vocabulary] HO that makes you click on spells that make no sense)And if your soloing, HO's are very usefulOne time we had a bruiser as our MT. I noticed that he never used HO's and I asked him why. He said he didn't have time??? I literally almost fell out of my chair. Forget that bruisers can use all their attacks in about 3 secs and then sit there for 5-10 waiting for refresh (this was around the 30's), but properly implented, HO's should not throw off your rhythm or timing at all, in fact they should be part of your rhythm and timing.And of course, how can we forget the most important reason to use them? The cool animations! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />

Kizee
05-27-2008, 12:27 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> It's rare that even a "3 way" HO is completed, much less a full 4-way. </p></blockquote>This is completely false. If you get a group with all four archetypes and people that are halfway awake, HOs can be very easy. Some people seem to think that HOs require a lot of skill and coordination, but they just require people that have some vague understanding of the system.IMO, the amount of people that understand/care about HOs has greatly dropped in this expansion. I had a much easier time coordinating them in Unrest runs than I do in Maiden's runs now.</blockquote>They used to require skill and coordination when they would cancel if someone hit the wrong icon. SoE was suppose to revamp them a long long time ago but I guess they forgot about them.

Galithdor
05-27-2008, 12:45 PM
I wouldnt say down with HOs since they are optional...and not many people use them, i do but thats me, hah they rarely get completed when i do unless im raiding anyways.

Bloodfa
05-27-2008, 12:54 PM
<p>Hmmm, I always thought HO's were about as easy to grasp as targeting.  You get a blinking CA, Taunt, Heal, whatever, so you click it and get a free buff or extra damage.  Doesn't get any easier than that.  Helps when soloing.  And useful when in a group.  Getting a triple off is ... well, easy.  And the little extra's add up.  To each his own, I guess.</p>

Karlen
05-27-2008, 01:10 PM
I don't see any reason to remove HOs.  I don't think there are any possible results that will make your situation worse, so there is no harm in their existence. If you don't want to use HOs, there is certainly no requirement to do so.  Just remove the HO key from your hotbar, and ignore it when others activate it.

Rahatmattata
05-27-2008, 01:17 PM
I like groups that know how to do HO. I'll take any power regen and mitigation I can get. Scouts should always try and have the bravdo's dance or whatever the one is that increases weapon skills if they are fighting deep yellow - orange.

feldon30
05-27-2008, 01:54 PM
The problem is HOs really only affect the archetypical groups.  I was surprised at how useful the HOs were that I startedw ith my Guardian. A ranger and a conjurer together cannot complete each other's HOs. Several classes have illogical starters/finishers, or simply none at all.

orchard54
05-28-2008, 09:11 PM
HO's are awesome.They aren't required for anything, but if you get a group (or even solo) and fire off HO's as quickly as you can, and figure out the order for the more classes you have can really change the tide of a battle. Or at the least, make your battles much quicker <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and who doesn't want that?I've seen a few HO's that give you 100% power, health, stats/skill increase, regen and so forth... there are so many.Use em or not, its your choice. In group situations you probably finish a bunch of HO's without even realizing it.my 2cp.

Odys
05-28-2008, 09:57 PM
I use HO while soloing all the time. So basically i pull , startit and use to direct damage spells. Sometimes i get the rare ho and i may toss a heal to complete it. 90% of the time completing my HO means pressing 1 2 3.I don't loose anything since anyway i would use my 2 combat arts. In groups i often complete my own HO using two comabt arts in like 2 seconds.I rememberwell a paladin asking me to let him do his agro HO so i let him open. When a longer group HO on i simply try to toss what is needed if i can.I do't know the effect of group HO, my solo ones are nice little buff + some direct damage.

Elro
05-28-2008, 10:24 PM
<p>Oh hello again guess what?</p><p>Yea I guess you are right .After letting EQ2 rest for a couple of days , Im finding myself return. The reason could be the fact there are more positvie things than just this negative one. Like I said being old fashioned dont help my self alot so I guess its round 2 now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Noaani
05-28-2008, 10:38 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> It's rare that even a "3 way" HO is completed, much less a full 4-way. </p></blockquote>This is completely false. If you get a group with all four archetypes and people that are halfway awake, HOs can be very easy. Some people seem to think that HOs require a lot of skill and coordination, but they just require people that have some vague understanding of the system.IMO, the amount of people that understand/care about HOs has greatly dropped in this expansion. I had a much easier time coordinating them in Unrest runs than I do in Maiden's runs now.</blockquote><p>There is no way I will interrupt my casting order so that a group HO can be competed.</p><p>Why should I lower my DPS (and hence, the groups DPS) by several hundred, maybe several thousand, simply toget a small useless buff, or a nuke that is smaller than the spell I don't cast because its too small?</p><p>Often times, groups are better off simply not using HOs, especiallyif the players themselves know how to get the most out of their class. Sometimes someone will start an HO up, presumably by accident. When this happens, sometimes it gets finished, sometimes it doesn't. No one that knows their class well actually cares when in a group setting.</p><p>Whats odd though, is this aspect of the game that was desinged and implemented pre launch as a bonus for gropuing is at its best while solo. There are a few classes that would have far too hard a time soloing if it wern't for HOs.</p>

Noaani
05-28-2008, 10:49 PM
<cite>Elro wrote:</cite> <blockquote>I dont think it fits a warrior to have his dmg coming from a spell like effect. Im doing little dmg when I dont use the HO and that spell it creates ,like an electrical fountain, might be funky but I think it gets ridiculous.</blockquote><p>Something to be aware of, even though they may look like spells when the trigger, fighter HOs deal melee damage, and thus are melee attacks.</p>

Gilasil
05-28-2008, 11:48 PM
<p>Oh HOs are certainly easy to do.  My biggest problem with HOs has been that they require I use a CA at a time when I would not otherwise use it.  After trying them for awhile, I decided that the slight benefit of using the HO was not worth using a CA when it wasn't the best time to use it.</p><p> At launch they were considered pretty important and were given a lot of attention.  I don't know if they've been watered down or what, but they sure seem less important now.</p><p> I think this is another example of an experiment they tried to spice up combat which didn't pan out.</p>

Calris
05-29-2008, 01:54 AM
<cite>Daedalus Raistlin wrote:</cite><blockquote>(back at launch, if someone used a different CA/Spell than what was showing, it broke the HO.)</blockquote>As I recall, HO's also showed up randomly rather than being actively triggered AND they were more powerful. My memory could be off, though.

Calris
05-29-2008, 01:57 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>HO's are awesome.They aren't required for anything, but if you get a group (or even solo) and fire off HO's as quickly as you can, and figure out the order for the more classes you have can really change the tide of a battle. Or at the least, make your battles much quicker <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> and who doesn't want that?</blockquote>When I solo, I'm always spamming HOs whenever the trigger pops. They're a bit frustrating on Scouts, though. Swindler's Luck, while a nice buff, pops up WAY too often and does absolutely nothing if you already have the buff active. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Even being able to "reroll" HOs, it tends to pop right back up on the reroll.

Goob
05-29-2008, 10:18 AM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Daedalus Raistlin wrote:</cite><blockquote>(back at launch, if someone used a different CA/Spell than what was showing, it broke the HO.)</blockquote>As I recall, HO's also showed up randomly rather than being actively triggered AND they were more powerful. My memory could be off, though.</blockquote><p>At launch Ho's still needed to be triggered by the button, it has always been that way. The Ho's Werent any more powerful now then they were back at launch. What has changed significantly since launch is the Power of the players them selves. HO's were a nessesity back then, because gear sucked, and we were lucky to have a couple adept spells, much less any master or add 3 spells.  I didnt even see a master chest drop till my paladin was a lvl 32 and dropped off a random mob in RoV,  oh and money didnt drop off of [Removed for Content] till you actually got to EF. </p><p>If you dont care for HO's then take it off your hotbar and dont worry about it. But even these days I still use HO's on raid mobs and Named mobs in groups. And soloin g it is basically buff or damage. For a caster a DD HO can do almost as much damage as your second best nuke. I keep my HO button right next to my attack buttons, just to make it easier. </p><p>HO's in groups and raids have died significantly as i previous stated because of PLAYER power, there not needed when mastercrafters and add 3 or better gear. But i still consider HO's a MUST in solo play, though scouts can be tougher as sometimes the trigger is a back attack, but just let it stay there blinking until the ability required is ready. You got a total of 1 minute to complete a HO once you press the button, so what are you REALLY losing my using them...nothing. Some of the Buffs arent that bad themselves, some offer incombat regen of health and power, heals, int and wisdom buffs that turn into mana and spell power, group heals, wards, DPS increases, and quite honestly i have seen HO's in raids that do significant damage to the mobs, up to 25k damage. But HO's are alsop random to a point, there are common ones, uncommon ones, rare ones, and super rare ones. </p><p>HO's are optional, you are not required to use it, but if you dont you are only missing out on free stuff. Also For the person that responded on losing DPS in raids is actually rubbish.. mainly because if you initiate the HO the damage done from it is actually ADDED to your DPS, it counts as damage done my YOU. So Hit your Ho button even if you dont want to press any buttons for it.</p>

pikeymoose
05-29-2008, 11:55 AM
HO's were tried and really didn't take off per say.  They are in game, because they do no harm and to remove them would be pointless and a waste of time.  They are not the focus.  Use em if you want.  Sony won't be going down the HO upgrade path anytime soon.  (i use them soloing, and the odd group that has control over button mashing). 

azekah
05-29-2008, 12:29 PM
<cite>.</cite>

Levatino
05-29-2008, 12:33 PM
I always use the HO, I mean i press the buttons anyway <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It's a nice damage and yes for soloplay very usefull

evilgamer
05-29-2008, 12:36 PM
<p>I always use HO when soloing, helps up dps, especially on tank toons you can turn your taunt into a damage ability.  May not be much damage but every little bit helps when soloing.</p>

DragonMaster2385
05-29-2008, 01:07 PM
I think it would be pretty simple to increase the effectiveness of group HOs.  The solo ones shouldn't be touched, but they should provide more than they do for groups.  Doing a HO shouldn't lower dps; the fact that it does is a concern that SOE should look into.  I agree that they were much more useful at launch, but all of the combat and equipment changes have made it obsolete.

Duluvian
05-30-2008, 09:35 AM
My HO starter is my first or second icon on my taskbar on each and every one of my toons.  (only being second to root for the squishies)  If you want some tough loving for HOs then try FFXI.  They had something called chains, which were in essence like HOs.  The problem was that you had to do them at an exact time or they would not work.  A second off here or there and you were up a creek without a paddle.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

simpwrx02
05-30-2008, 10:17 AM
<p>At higher levels HOs are a complete joke imho the solo one for mages haha, woot I did an additional 600 damage at level 80, it is nice, but rerally not needed.  I have my HO starter macroed into one of my main used spells so i start HOs often, but if i finish them cool if not cool, it is bonus damage that is it.  There are some nice buffs indeed but you can't plan any encounter based on HOs.  However i do have the HO macroed on all my toons no reason to ignore free damage, and my scouts all use it to ensure swindlers luck is always up, and the healer common HO is nice as it actually increases focus, hurray for less interupts.  </p><p>I will only change up my casting order on a long HO that requires an order to finish as those ones are normally the ones actually worth completing, but since this happens about once every 5 minutes of fighting it is really unnoticeable on my ZW dps, oh and i only care about even that in raids, groups what ever, not going to alter my 30k nuke to do a 1200 nuke to finish an HO.  In raids you have much longer fights so it isnt as vital to maximize everything 100% of the time to be effective, you can alter order a bit and only drop a small amount of dps depending on how fast the mobs die.</p>

Elro
05-30-2008, 10:19 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it would be pretty simple to increase the effectiveness of group HOs.  The solo ones shouldn't be touched, but they should provide more than they do for groups.  Doing a HO shouldn't lower dps; the fact that it does is a concern that SOE should look into.<span style="font-size: medium;">  <i>I agree that they were much more useful at launch, but all of the combat and equipment changes have made it obsolete.</i></span></blockquote><p>I see there are classes who can make them go in faster rounds like the bards with their AAs maybe Im wrong. I still ahev the impression it is/was a key element to the combat system . So yes they should make it more usefull.</p><p>And <span style="font-size: medium;">Duluvian</span> btw, I have played FF8 and completet it 2 times and FF7 until the last disk which I accidentally broke<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yes I had the HO system in comparison to The FF series like you have a limit break or something but Its been years ago I played them so I couldnt remeber exactly how it was. I have many times considered playing the FF11 mmo but its kinda infamous.</p>