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View Full Version : Buggest fun killer - "you did not find any quest items"


Guy De Alsace
05-23-2008, 10:37 PM
<p>I have played this game since around may 2005 and have yet to find one greater reason for hate, lack of fun and frustration than "you did not find any quest items". When these quests are combined with a rare mob that is heroic and shares a placement with other mobs you are looking at the very solidification of "lack of fun".</p><p>Even the simplest quests with this message are teeth grindingly annoying. Quests of this nature share the "feature" of not knowing when (if ever) the quest will finally end. I'd rather do a quest with 20 updates than one with 2 or 3 that arent guaranteed.</p><p>There has to be a better way! </p><p>I'd recommend replacing all these with a larger but guaranteed number of updates...to save hours of intense frustration!</p>

Snowdonia
05-24-2008, 12:13 AM
Amen to that! Random updates are the pits and whoever came up with 'em needs a good pie in the face. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Odys
05-24-2008, 01:12 AM
I would prefer 10 times to be ordered to bring 20 pelts that drp all the time than to bring one that has 5% of chance to drop.Keeping here and there questx in which you need ONE bu only ONErare item is possible. But the quest should mention it and such quests should be a minority.

Blakkmantis
05-24-2008, 01:29 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Amen to that! Random updates are the pits and whoever came up with 'em needs a good pie in the face. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Oooo PIE.....I luv PIE!And on a side note along with Camping Named, random updates are the pits.  But I don't let it bother me much.  And now after playing about 4 years, and how they have dumbed the game down so much.  I can't let it bother me anymore.

Ozymundas
05-24-2008, 01:45 AM
I agree.  I definately prefer quests that have me get a large number of guaranteed drops over a few random ones.  The random updates seem to really screw over some people who cannot find the luck to get them in a reasonable amount of time.

Zarador
05-24-2008, 02:10 AM
Then there are the mixed quests...yes...I'm referring to the Lore and Legend's!Kill the 1st mob and Ding...Ding...Ding....wow!  Oh my gosh, it even dropped 4 of the 5 parts I need (exaggerating of course). This is gonna go smooth, not like them old days when you spent days on it.Three hours later you killed 10,000 mobs looking for a "Bixie Thorax"  Enough of this, let me check the broker.  What the heck? 3 Plat!?!?!(sighs) Let me go out and do the Nightblood L&L, at least I have all the body parts for that one!  Pull a set and Ding...Ding....  Come on...do it...come on...one more!  Three hours later and your still shooting for that 3rd Ding!Well...Naga looks easy..... The Saga Begins....

Qandor
05-24-2008, 02:19 AM
If they make this any easier they just might as well give you the quest reward and a hearty handshake for just saying hello to the quest giver. We've come from week long camps in EQlive to 10 minutes of "you didn't find any quest items" and its still not easy enough?

Xrool
05-24-2008, 02:22 AM
I couldn't agree more with the OP.  In 3 1/2 years of playing EQ2 I can't think of anything more consistently annoying than "You did not find any quest items".  And like Oustafiak said I would rather a quest require more items that always drop than less items that sometimes drop.  I don't mind working for a quest, but like the OP said it really is a "fun killer".

orchard54
05-24-2008, 02:40 AM
90% of the quests that are like this have logic behind them if you read entirely what the quest is about. I don't mind the game being like this for a few reasons.1: I like killing things in general, I'm getting exp while doing a quest, not to mention exp for the quest itself once it is complete. (and AA exp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )2: Ok, so not everyone role plays, but this is a role playing game. If an NPC wants a certain quality of fur from an animal (as an example) then you may need to kill more than a few of that particular enemy to find the quality the quest giver is looking for.3: You do have the option to delete quests from your journal and find the types you like to do... nobody makes you do anything. Crafting/Harvesting isn't my "cup of tea" so to speak, so I pay a little more to get the rare, and have someone else make it. It's no big deal, just trading off one thing for another.4: The majority of the time, if a quest tends to take longer, the reward is more satisfying. I haven't done any testing on this but who knows, maybe quests that have updates that you get 100% on kill don't give as much exp % wise than the ones that may take longer. (speaking about quest reward exp %, not the amount gained from killing enemy's while doing the quest.)If you do find a quest that has an update that is ridiculously rare for the reward given, send a /feedback and /bug in game. Maybe SOE didn't mean for that particular update to actually be so rare. Hey, it works sometimes <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />just my 2cp. take it or leave it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

DeadRingMast
05-24-2008, 03:24 AM
My biggest fun killer is grinding for a hour and earning a measly 5 percent xp. Just makes me ask myself if any of this is even worth it, cause it sure ain't fun at that point.

Mojohobo1
05-24-2008, 03:40 AM
I think it kills the fun too.  If you like quests where you have to kill mobs a hundred times just to get a few drops...so be it, to each his own.  But whether you call it roleplay or not, it's just not fun to see that message.  This is a game and games should be fun.  Time to remove this silly game mechanic.  Content is fun, not arbitrary time sinks.

orchard54
05-24-2008, 05:04 AM
<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they make this any easier they just might as well give you the quest reward and a hearty handshake for just saying hello to the quest giver. We've come from week long camps in EQlive to 10 minutes of "you didn't find any quest items" and its still not easy enough? </blockquote>So true <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ozymundas
05-24-2008, 06:21 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote>If they make this any easier they just might as well give you the quest reward and a hearty handshake for just saying hello to the quest giver. We've come from week long camps in EQlive to 10 minutes of "you didn't find any quest items" and its still not easy enough? </blockquote>So true <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I would see your point if you had one.  Noone is asking to make it easier, just make it consistent.  Kill 1000 mobs isn't easier than Kill 5 mobs that may or may not update your quest.  And as far as lore and legend quests go, at least those scale with your level so you can work on them for a long time.  Other quests like this, do not.  Sure grey quests give exp and aa now, but it's still not "fun" to do random updates.

Zarador
05-24-2008, 11:08 AM
I can see both sides to this topic.  I've had a few very frustrating quests that never seem to update to a point where you wonder if your bugged.  Just as bad are some of the quests like the ones in Mara where you need to stand in just the right place, which no matter how many times you have done the quest on your other characters, never seems to be in the right place.On the flip side, the challenge of not knowing which mob will give you the update is also fun at times.  Imagine if they applied the same concept of guaranteed updates to harvesting.  Have a counter that displays showing the amount of harvests you made knowing every 100th (insert number) will yield a rare.Sometimes it can be fun playing with the luck of the draw.

Mariss
05-24-2008, 11:40 AM
I too see the merit from both sides of the coin on this.However I've got to admit that I began to get a bit peeved my 4th time clearing the entire Halls of Fate and still not getting a quest update for Hoo'Loh's quest.  And the same quest not updating clearing PoA.

Calris
05-24-2008, 12:29 PM
In general... If every mob dropped the "quest items", then it may as well be a "kill x" quest. However, the drop rates are a bit stupidly low sometimes. I'd never suggest doing away with the random quest drops, but upping the rate a bit would be a definite plus.

Calris
05-24-2008, 12:34 PM
<cite>Mojohobo1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it kills the fun too.  If you like quests where you have to kill mobs a hundred times just to get a few drops...so be it, to each his own.  But whether you call it roleplay or not, it's just not fun to see that message.  This is a game and games should be fun.  Time to remove this silly game mechanic.  Content is fun, not arbitrary time sinks. </blockquote>Either way, you're killing mobs. I don't see how killing them and getting a quest update every time, but needing 10x more quest updates, is any more fun than killing them and not getting quest updates every time. Either way you're doing the same [Removed for Content] thing, only difference is it goes "ding" after every kill. Whoo! That's SO MUCH MORE FUN!

Illmarr
05-24-2008, 12:42 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would prefer 10 times to be ordered to bring 20 pelts that drp all the time than to bring one that has 5% of chance to drop.Keeping here and there questx in which you need ONE bu only ONErare item is possible. But the quest should mention it and such quests should be a minority.</blockquote><p>Now I am just the opposite. Nothing pisses me off more than to go do something, and be sent right back out to do the same thing again. This is where all those [Removed for Content] book quests from release lost me. "Kill 10 soandso... read a page...kill 10 more soandso...read another page...kill 10 more soandso...read a page. Do this 3 times and you have finished your book /yawn</p>

Wingrider01
05-24-2008, 01:09 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>In general... If every mob dropped the "quest items", then it may as well be a "kill x" quest. However, the drop rates are a bit stupidly low sometimes. I'd never suggest doing away with the random quest drops, but upping the rate a bit would be a definite plus.</blockquote>Thing is, this no different in any other game of the same genre. EQ1 has it, Wow has it, matter of discussion have seen much worse drop rates for quest required items in WoW then here.

Nimeesha
05-24-2008, 01:31 PM
Call me a sadist, but I don't mind low drop rates for quests.  Sure, it can get very frustrating at times.  But when that happens to me, I just quit that quest for the day, move on to another, and try again tomorrow.  There's more than enough to do here to keep you busy till you feel like trying again. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Dasein
05-24-2008, 01:35 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mojohobo1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it kills the fun too.  If you like quests where you have to kill mobs a hundred times just to get a few drops...so be it, to each his own.  But whether you call it roleplay or not, it's just not fun to see that message.  This is a game and games should be fun.  Time to remove this silly game mechanic.  Content is fun, not arbitrary time sinks. </blockquote>Either way, you're killing mobs. I don't see how killing them and getting a quest update every time, but needing 10x more quest updates, is any more fun than killing them and not getting quest updates every time. Either way you're doing the same [I cannot control my vocabulary] thing, only difference is it goes "ding" after every kill. Whoo! That's SO MUCH MORE FUN!</blockquote>It's about control. The use of variable ratio reward systems is a well-known behaviorist method of making people continue certain types of behavior, so when confronted with it, it makes the player feel manipulated, which in turn causes resentment and displeasure at being so manipulated.

Calris
05-24-2008, 01:58 PM
<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mojohobo1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it kills the fun too.  If you like quests where you have to kill mobs a hundred times just to get a few drops...so be it, to each his own.  But whether you call it roleplay or not, it's just not fun to see that message.  This is a game and games should be fun.  Time to remove this silly game mechanic.  Content is fun, not arbitrary time sinks. </blockquote>Either way, you're killing mobs. I don't see how killing them and getting a quest update every time, but needing 10x more quest updates, is any more fun than killing them and not getting quest updates every time. Either way you're doing the same [I cannot control my vocabulary] thing, only difference is it goes "ding" after every kill. Whoo! That's SO MUCH MORE FUN!</blockquote>It's about control. The use of variable ratio reward systems is a well-known behaviorist method of making people continue certain types of behavior, so when confronted with it, it makes the player feel manipulated, which in turn causes resentment and displeasure at being so manipulated.</blockquote>Some players. A lot of players actually -like- playing the odds game. Why else is Vegas so popular? (Aside from the fact that you might win lots of money even though almost no one even breaks even )

Mojohobo1
05-24-2008, 02:06 PM
Well, first of all, this isn't Vegas.  As I stated, it's a game, not gambling.  Besides, even Vegas knows there has to be a reward sometime to keep you at the slots/tables before you walk away.  But that's all besides the point because this is nothing like gambling.  And to answer Calris, when it goes "ding" as you say, yes, it is more FUN.  Sorry you don't agree, but that's just the way I see it.  I think your preference is boring.

Calris
05-24-2008, 02:12 PM
I'm sorry, I just don't see how it makes the slightest bit of difference. You're doing absolutely nothing different. The only thing different that's happening is the game is making a sound and a counter is going up. If it takes you the same amount of time and same amount of kills, big whup. Perfect predictability is more boring, to be honest.Oh, and whether or not this is Vegas is irrelevant. It was an example. But, truth is, few people go to Vegas honestly thinking they're going to win. They go to gamble. Which is playing the odds. Most go knowing full well that they'll lose. But, hell, people have fun playing virtual poker for imaginary money and that game is nothing BUT random chance.

Mojohobo1
05-24-2008, 02:16 PM
It's no big deal that you don't see it.  No one is going to make you.  Myself and a few other do see it, however.  That is why this topic is here.  This topic isn't here to convince you that we're not "flat-out insane".

Grumble69
05-24-2008, 02:22 PM
Most of them are ok.  They have a high enough chance where you're not going to be killing for hours.  Some of them though are insane.  For example, the L20s gear quest guy in Nek by the commonlands ent.  I eventually just cancelled that series.The other one I hate is the Fireknight books for the HQ CoF.  I've got a L80 necro that's trying to squeek out the last few AA points and I'd figure I would knock that one out.  lol.  I've been rounding up mobs by the truckload and mowing them over.  Spent about 1-1.5hr nite for 3 nites now and haven't got it to drop yet.  That's just stupid.

Dasein
05-24-2008, 02:27 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mojohobo1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it kills the fun too.  If you like quests where you have to kill mobs a hundred times just to get a few drops...so be it, to each his own.  But whether you call it roleplay or not, it's just not fun to see that message.  This is a game and games should be fun.  Time to remove this silly game mechanic.  Content is fun, not arbitrary time sinks. </blockquote>Either way, you're killing mobs. I don't see how killing them and getting a quest update every time, but needing 10x more quest updates, is any more fun than killing them and not getting quest updates every time. Either way you're doing the same [I cannot control my vocabulary] thing, only difference is it goes "ding" after every kill. Whoo! That's SO MUCH MORE FUN!</blockquote>It's about control. The use of variable ratio reward systems is a well-known behaviorist method of making people continue certain types of behavior, so when confronted with it, it makes the player feel manipulated, which in turn causes resentment and displeasure at being so manipulated.</blockquote>Some players. A lot of players actually -like- playing the odds game. Why else is Vegas so popular? (Aside from the fact that you might win lots of money even though almost no one even breaks even )</blockquote>My point exactly. It's a very powerful means of manipulating people. However, would you say a rat enjoys pressing a button more because it gets him a food pellet 10% of the time than if pressing the button 5 times always gave him a food pellet? Why does 'enjoyment' excuse manipulation? After all, feelings of joy are simply the result of certain chemicals being introduced into the nervous system, and not indicative of any particularly virtuous or socially desirable behavior. Also, I wonder what the regular casino patrons really enjoy - is it the casino experience, where the gambling is only a part, or is it that they feel compelled to gamble by the prospect of the momentary high that comes with the occasional win?Gambling preys on two common behavioral trends: the vulnerability to variable ratio schedules and the tendency of people to fall for the sunken cost fallacy. These same forces are used heavily in many MMO designs, because ultimately the objective is to keep people playing and thus paying money. Granted, casino gambling in the form of slots and other games of pure chance is far more exploitive, but this is not to say that these same methods are not employed to a lesser extent in other mediums. I wonder how many people have played longer than they intended because they wanted to get a random update? Does the use of random updates actually encourage this behavior, as all the effort is wasted if one does not get the update? For example, if I need an update that as a 1% chance of dropping, and I kill 99 of the mobs which may drop it without it dropping, I've gained nothing towards my goal. If I quit, all that time goes to waste (sunken cost fallacy) thus I am encouraged to keep killing in hopes of getting the reward (operant conditioning via variable ratio schedule to prevent extinction of behavior). Clearly, you can see how this will lead to long-term negative consequences, along with feelings of resentment and dissatisfaction with the game. Ultimately, this can have the unintended effect of  making people quit the game entirely.Conversly, a quest where the requirement is to kill 100 of mob x does not lead to anything close to these negatives, as one is rewarded with each kill, and there is no wasted work, in that if I kill 99 of the mobs, then I only need 1 more, even if I end my current session and resume hours or days later.

TaleraRis
05-24-2008, 03:29 PM
Steelhoof....prophets.... >.<Over a week playing every single day for at least 5 hours a day trying to get all the updates for that Requsition in TS. Just as bad when I originally did the treat L&L. There's nothing wrong with a ding every 5, 10, even 20 if you want make it more "rare", but no updates for hour after after, day after day is extremely discouraging and unsatisfying. And when the sacrifice of your time finally does pay off for you, you don't feel a sense of accomplishment. You feel a sense of relief that it's over. That's not the way finishing a quest should feel like.

Calris
05-24-2008, 04:48 PM
<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>My point exactly. It's a very powerful means of manipulating people. However, would you say a rat enjoys pressing a button more because it gets him a food pellet 10% of the time than if pressing the button 5 times always gave him a food pellet? Why does 'enjoyment' excuse manipulation? After all, feelings of joy are simply the result of certain chemicals being introduced into the nervous system, and not indicative of any particularly virtuous or socially desirable behavior. Also, I wonder what the regular casino patrons really enjoy - is it the casino experience, where the gambling is only a part, or is it that they feel compelled to gamble by the prospect of the momentary high that comes with the occasional win?Gambling preys on two common behavioral trends: the vulnerability to variable ratio schedules and the tendency of people to fall for the sunken cost fallacy. These same forces are used heavily in many MMO designs, because ultimately the objective is to keep people playing and thus paying money. Granted, casino gambling in the form of slots and other games of pure chance is far more exploitive, but this is not to say that these same methods are not employed to a lesser extent in other mediums. I wonder how many people have played longer than they intended because they wanted to get a random update? Does the use of random updates actually encourage this behavior, as all the effort is wasted if one does not get the update? For example, if I need an update that as a 1% chance of dropping, and I kill 99 of the mobs which may drop it without it dropping, I've gained nothing towards my goal. If I quit, all that time goes to waste (sunken cost fallacy) thus I am encouraged to keep killing in hopes of getting the reward (operant conditioning via variable ratio schedule to prevent extinction of behavior). Clearly, you can see how this will lead to long-term negative consequences, along with feelings of resentment and dissatisfaction with the game. Ultimately, this can have the unintended effect of  making people quit the game entirely.Conversly, a quest where the requirement is to kill 100 of mob x does not lead to anything close to these negatives, as one is rewarded with each kill, and there is no wasted work, in that if I kill 99 of the mobs, then I only need 1 more, even if I end my current session and resume hours or days later. </blockquote>Actually, it doesn't seem what I said was your point at all. Some people like playing the odds. Not because they're manipulated, but because they LIKE it. Many people prefer the uncertainty. If I roll a die and know it'll always come up 6, what's the point of rolling it in the first place? To me, the random odds on the drops are no different from the random odds on whether my attacks hit or miss. This entire genre of games relies heavily on random odds. To me, complaining about them is like complaining that you don't know when you'll draw the ace in a game of poker. It's all about chance. And, really, there are very few games that don't rely on random variables to some degree. Most forms of entertainment are only entertaining because of uncertain outcomes.Back to the gambling example, people get a thrill out of winning, yeah. But that thrill would not be there if it were a sure thing. I resent the concept of blaming the casinos for the addictions. People make their own choices, their own priorities. Not the casinos.

Mojohobo1
05-24-2008, 05:27 PM
Dasein hit the nail on the head.  It doesn't matter how many mobs are required to complete a quest (make it a thousand for all I care because it's not about the amount of effort), but when you're paying for entertainment you want to at least make sure that you make progress toward that goal.  Simply hoping to make progress isn't fun, and that is how the current system works on many quests.  That is the point that some people fail to see.  These excessively random updates more often than not equal wasted playing time if your session isn't longer than an hour or two.  This game is all about character development and those wasted sessions equal no character development.  It creates frustration, and ultimately less subscribers.  I agree with Gwyneth's statement also that there is no sense of accomplishment when these quests are completed...just relief.  Bowel movements provide relief too, but I wouldn't call it "fun".  An example would be back in the old betray system.  I did it from Qeynos to Freeport.  One of the requirements was to kill 500 orcs.  Because there was a set number I was able to log in a little bit each day and work toward that goal.  I wasn't hoping that logging in that day wouldn't end up being a waste.  I worked it at a pace that meshed with real life duties.  It took me a while because those were mostly heroic mobs and I was level 17, but when I was done I did feel a sense of accomplishment, not relief.  The point is I would rather a quest have a high requirement that I could actually work toward, rather than a low requirement that I can only hope to get lucky on.  I pay to play, not gamble and waste time.  There is no "winning" this game hence no "thrill out of winning".  If you want to win then go see the goblins on the docks.  The rest of the game is about character development.  If one can't see the difference then I don't know what else could be said. As for the rest of the game, I love it, which is why I'm still here and still questing away.

Calris
05-24-2008, 06:08 PM
Well, as I say, there are people who find the randomness more entertaining and predictability boring. *Shrug* Can't really please everyone with everything. I suppose that would by why there are some quests that are simply "Kill x number of y mob" and some that are "Collect x number of y item that some of the z mobs carry".

Zarador
05-25-2008, 04:31 AM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, as I say, there are people who find the randomness more entertaining and predictability boring. *Shrug* Can't really please everyone with everything. I suppose that would by why there are some quests that are simply "Kill x number of y mob" and some that are "Collect x number of y item that some of the z mobs carry".</blockquote>Brings up a real interesting idea though.  What if the quest guy offered you some choice?  Would you like to kill say 300 of "Mob X" to complete this quest, or randomly take your chances? Choose wisely as this choice will be locked into this character. How about something to the effect of an alternate quest?  Imagine a crafter version?  Our village is hungry, you may kill 400 mobs for the meat ~or~ make 100 meat pies which would also be tasty? Explorer version:  We would like to study these mobs further, either kill 100 of them and bring back the findings or visit the following places (like the Bootstrader Quests) and catalog these species. Just some quirks to spice up the quests just a little.

liveja
05-25-2008, 03:08 PM
<cite>Xrool wrote:</cite><blockquote>In 3 1/2 years of playing EQ2 I can't think of anything more consistently annoying than "You did not find any quest items".</blockquote><p>I can: doing three T8 instances, & seeing only 1 exquisite chest drop the whole time.</p>

liveja
05-25-2008, 03:10 PM
<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just some quirks to spice up the quests just a little. </blockquote>Those are all very interesting ideas, Zar.

Odys
05-25-2008, 09:42 PM
Maths prove that this is bad. I you need 1  pelts droping with rate 1/n you need on average to kill n monsters. But the probability to fail after killing n monsters in (1-1/n)^n ~ 1/e e being a number like 2.71 ... So your chance to fail after n mob is more than 1/3. Assume n is 100. Your chance to fail after 500 monsters is still more than 1/3^5  so more than 1/243 So on a serveur with 10 000 players 50 of them will need to kill more than 500 monsters. Large deviation from the mean cannot be tolerated in a MMO.

Brockwurst
05-25-2008, 11:44 PM
<p><span style="font-size: x-large;color: #990000;font-family: times new roman,times;">The frustration, for me, is the lack of creativity in the story line.  Someone tells me they'll give me something if I go out and gather 10 rhino horns.  I spot a rhino!  Forsooth, it has a horn!  I kill it and, lo and behold, I get a message I didn't find a quest item!  By all that's right and holy, I can SEE the ding dang horn right there!  Do they think I'm so stupid that I'll go and hunt a [Removed for Content]' rhino for its horn, yet choose one that DIDN'T have one?  Or tigers... gather tiger skins.  Really, who the HECK would hunt a tiger that didn't have a skin???</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large;color: #990000;font-family: times new roman,times;"> At the very least, put a BIT more creativity into the quest.  If it has to be random, something like "gather 5 tiger pets that have spots on the underbelly."  With THAT, I'd have to kill the dang tiger just to see <i>IF </i>it had spots on its underbelly.</span></p>

Calris
05-26-2008, 12:06 AM
<cite>Brockwurst wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-large;font-family: times new roman,times;color: #990000;">The frustration, for me, is the lack of creativity in the story line.  Someone tells me they'll give me something if I go out and gather 10 rhino horns.  I spot a rhino!  Forsooth, it has a horn!  I kill it and, lo and behold, I get a message I didn't find a quest item!  By all that's right and holy, I can SEE the ding dang horn right there!  Do they think I'm so stupid that I'll go and hunt a [Removed for Content]' rhino for its horn, yet choose one that DIDN'T have one?  Or tigers... gather tiger skins.  Really, who the HECK would hunt a tiger that didn't have a skin???</span></p></blockquote>First off, lose that gaudy huge font, please. It's a bit of an eyesore.Now, the logic here is that either the part you were trying to collect was damaged during the fight ( Fighting a Rhino would be a pretty violent thing ) or it's simply not the quality that the quest giver was looking for. A mangy, tattered tiger pelt probably isn't going to be much good for whatever purpose you were sent to gather them.Of course, on the "I can see the horn" note, the model for all rhinos is identical ( other than size and coloring ). Keeps the resources from getting out of hand. IRL, you can run across a rhino that's broken its horn. Same thing could happen in game, but the game engine simply doesn't show it.A little thought explains all this pretty easily.

Calris
05-26-2008, 12:10 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maths prove that this is bad. I you need 1  pelts droping with rate 1/n you need on average to kill n monsters. But the probability to fail after killing n monsters in (1-1/n)^n ~ 1/e e being a number like 2.71 ... So your chance to fail after n mob is more than 1/3. Assume n is 100. Your chance to fail after 500 monsters is still more than 1/3^5  so more than 1/243 So on a serveur with 10 000 players 50 of them will need to kill more than 500 monsters. Large deviation from the mean cannot be tolerated in a MMO. </blockquote>Not quite sure I follow what you're saying. It seems to me that you're suggesting that the odds change on each kill the more of the mob you kill. This simply isn't true. If you have a 1 in 10 chance of a piece dropping each kill, it'll be 1 in 10 on the first kill and 1 in 10 on the hundredth. It also doesn't matter how many players are killing the mob. The rolls are made individually. If I roll a D10, I'll have the same odds of it coming up 5 whether I'm rolling it alone or in a handful of a dozen D10s.

Dasein
05-26-2008, 09:53 AM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maths prove that this is bad. I you need 1  pelts droping with rate 1/n you need on average to kill n monsters. But the probability to fail after killing n monsters in (1-1/n)^n ~ 1/e e being a number like 2.71 ... So your chance to fail after n mob is more than 1/3. Assume n is 100. Your chance to fail after 500 monsters is still more than 1/3^5  so more than 1/243 So on a serveur with 10 000 players 50 of them will need to kill more than 500 monsters. Large deviation from the mean cannot be tolerated in a MMO. </blockquote>Not quite sure I follow what you're saying. It seems to me that you're suggesting that the odds change on each kill the more of the mob you kill. This simply isn't true. If you have a 1 in 10 chance of a piece dropping each kill, it'll be 1 in 10 on the first kill and 1 in 10 on the hundredth. It also doesn't matter how many players are killing the mob. The rolls are made individually. If I roll a D10, I'll have the same odds of it coming up 5 whether I'm rolling it alone or in a handful of a dozen D10s.</blockquote>No, what he's saying is that while on average, if a mob has a 1/3 chance of giving an update, it may still take substantially more kills than 3 to actually get an update.

Illmarr
05-26-2008, 11:41 AM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brockwurst wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-large;color: #990000;font-family: times new roman,times;">The frustration, for me, is the lack of creativity in the story line.  Someone tells me they'll give me something if I go out and gather 10 rhino horns.  I spot a rhino!  Forsooth, it has a horn!  I kill it and, lo and behold, I get a message I didn't find a quest item!  By all that's right and holy, I can SEE the ding dang horn right there!  Do they think I'm so stupid that I'll go and hunt a [Removed for Content]' rhino for its horn, yet choose one that DIDN'T have one?  Or tigers... gather tiger skins.  Really, who the HECK would hunt a tiger that didn't have a skin???</span></p></blockquote>First off, lose that gaudy huge font, please. It's a bit of an eyesore.Now, the logic here is that either the part you were trying to collect was damaged during the fight ( Fighting a Rhino would be a pretty violent thing ) or it's simply not the quality that the quest giver was looking for. A mangy, tattered tiger pelt probably isn't going to be much good for whatever purpose you were sent to gather them.Of course, on the "I can see the horn" note, the model for all rhinos is identical ( other than size and coloring ). Keeps the resources from getting out of hand. IRL, you can run across a rhino that's broken its horn. Same thing could happen in game, but the game engine simply doesn't show it.A little thought explains all this pretty easily.</blockquote><p><span style="font-size: large;color: #66ff33;font-family: impact,chicago;">The second paragraph that you failed to quote gave the suggestion that adding another line of text specifying the requirement of the items you're sent to collect answers the points of your response quite nicely.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: large;color: #66ff33;font-family: impact,chicago;">And if fonts and colors were not meant to be used, they shouldn't give the option to use them. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: large;color: #66ff33;font-family: impact,chicago;">Ecclectic choices FTW!</span></p>

Mariss
05-26-2008, 02:19 PM
I don't mind the randomness of finding quest items.But PUHLEAZE don't make the chance an extremely rare drop, and then require you to go into an instance to get it.  There's not much more discouraging than getting all your friends/guildies/whoever together into a group to work on a timeline, just to come to a grinding halt when you clear an instance and no quest drop.... then BOOM, lockout timer.

Tylia
05-26-2008, 03:21 PM
What bothers me more is when there is a shortage of the mob that you need to kill and you continue to fail to find any quest item when you do manage to spawn the mob you need.  For example, I recently completed These Boots Were Made For.. hq on an alt and it took me 2 days of killing mature antelopes, and killing snakes and hawks just to try and spawn the rare mature antelope, to get my quest item.  There are only 2 places in all of TS where they spawn now and they are across the zone from each other.  It was definitely frustrating.  At least SOE should make the mob needed more plentiful.

Healary
05-26-2008, 03:54 PM
<cite>Brockwurst wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-large;font-family: times new roman,times;color: #990000;">The frustration, for me, is the lack of creativity in the story line.  Someone tells me they'll give me something if I go out and gather 10 rhino horns.  I spot a rhino!  Forsooth, it has a horn!  I kill it and, lo and behold, I get a message I didn't find a quest item!  By all that's right and holy, I can SEE the ding dang horn right there!  Do they think I'm so stupid that I'll go and hunt a [Removed for Content]' rhino for its horn, yet choose one that DIDN'T have one?  Or tigers... gather tiger skins.  Really, who the HECK would hunt a tiger that didn't have a skin???</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-large;font-family: times new roman,times;color: #990000;"> At the very least, put a BIT more creativity into the quest.  If it has to be random, something like "gather 5 tiger pets that have spots on the underbelly."  With THAT, I'd have to kill the dang tiger just to see <i>IF </i>it had spots on its underbelly.</span></p></blockquote><span style="color: #003300;"><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand;"><span style="font-size: medium;color: #999999;">*chuckle*  I couldn't have said it better. </span>  <img src="http://ltchey.homestead.com/files/emoticons/rynose.gif" border="0" alt="" /></span></span>

Arkinon
05-26-2008, 04:52 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xrool wrote:</cite><blockquote>In 3 1/2 years of playing EQ2 I can't think of anything more consistently annoying than "You did not find any quest items".</blockquote><p>I can: doing three T8 instances, & seeing only 1 exquisite chest drop the whole time.</p></blockquote>No whats worse is doing T8 Instances (like Chelsith) and only getting 1 ornate off the last mob... AND LOOK its an item nobody in the group can use. They Really need bosses to drop ornate every time with an option for exquisite. and remove the ornate on trash option. Either that or remove the lockout timers on group instances.

Calris
05-26-2008, 05:25 PM
<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>No, what he's saying is that while on average, if a mob has a 1/3 chance of giving an update, it may still take substantially more kills than 3 to actually get an update. </blockquote>Depends on your luck. Could take 30 to get 10 drops, could take 300, could take 10. That's the unpredictability I'm referring to and I'm sure as many people like it as hate it. And there are probably many more who couldn't give a flying rat's a** either way than on either side. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Calris
05-26-2008, 05:27 PM
<cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">And if fonts and colors were not meant to be used, they shouldn't give the option to use them. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">Ecclectic choices FTW!</span></p></blockquote>That's like saying if I don't want my car stolen I shouldn't leave it unlocked. Sure, there's some accountability on me if I leave the doors unlocked and it gets stolen, but that doesn't make it okay to steal it. :p

Zarador
05-26-2008, 08:24 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">And if fonts and colors were not meant to be used, they shouldn't give the option to use them. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">Ecclectic choices FTW!</span></p></blockquote>That's like saying if I don't want my car stolen I shouldn't leave it unlocked. Sure, there's some accountability on me if I leave the doors unlocked and it gets stolen, but that doesn't make it okay to steal it. :p</blockquote>Actually, it's like going to the local pro shop and getting those plaid shorts with the stripped shirt and the bright pink cap, then wearing it off the golf course.

Calris
05-26-2008, 10:45 PM
<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">And if fonts and colors were not meant to be used, they shouldn't give the option to use them. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">Ecclectic choices FTW!</span></p></blockquote>That's like saying if I don't want my car stolen I shouldn't leave it unlocked. Sure, there's some accountability on me if I leave the doors unlocked and it gets stolen, but that doesn't make it okay to steal it. :p</blockquote>Actually, it's like going to the local pro shop and getting those plaid shorts with the stripped shirt and the bright pink cap, then wearing it off the golf course. </blockquote>Fair point. And those people need to be beaten severely, too. 'course, I feel the same about those who wear outfits like that -on- the golf course.

Oh
05-26-2008, 11:24 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>No, what he's saying is that while on average, if a mob has a 1/3 chance of giving an update, it may still take substantially more kills than 3 to actually get an update. </blockquote>Depends on your luck. Could take 30 to get 10 drops, could take 300, could take 10. That's the unpredictability I'm referring to and I'm sure as many people like it as hate it. And there are probably many more who couldn't give a flying rat's a** either way than on either side. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Yea RND at it's finist. For example I was in kaladim (sigh) trying to get my 2 pages for the cloak of flames hq starter. I was in there for hours and hours and hours just trying to get 2 stinking pages. I managed to not only get the 2 kunark rare shinies out of that zone for the expert recognization collection, I had 2 more just to finish the other collection quests that also happen to use them and then even more to put on the broker. </p><p>As to comment on one of the previous posters about Boss's and chest drops. YES YES please stop with the stupid wooden boxes on freaking bosses. At least raise the rate that they drop something worthwhile considering the lockout timers. Also something worthwhile is NOT a chromatic essense (sigh I remember the threads going right and left about how hard it would be to get these items)</p>

ShinGoku
05-27-2008, 09:32 AM
My largest in game strop came when I was running a quest in KJ and it required me to simply kill 10 mist goblin shamans.  When your only remit is to kill something, and you kill it.  How can you not get an update?

erin
05-27-2008, 10:22 AM
<cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">And if fonts and colors were not meant to be used, they shouldn't give the option to use them. </span><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">Ecclectic choices FTW!</span></p></blockquote>Your choice, but don't be surprised if people don't bother reading your messages and thus miss your point when you choose to use difficult to read font/colors.

Guy De Alsace
05-27-2008, 01:58 PM
<p>The frustrating part for me is this:</p><p>In a guaranteed ding quest your efforts are always making progress to the end of the quest.</p><p>In a random drop, the quest completion is entirely in the hands of random luck. </p><p>The first one, you are actively progressing the quest. In the second instance you arent...but the RNG is. In the case of the random ding quests I never feel I have completed them with effort, rather with luck alone. </p><p>Kind of like the difference between winning the lottery and making your money through your own dedication and efforts. While the first is nice and all, the second is infinitely more rewarding, for me anyway. </p>

Odys
05-27-2008, 02:19 PM
<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maths prove that this is bad. I you need 1  pelts droping with rate 1/n you need on average to kill n monsters. But the probability to fail after killing n monsters in (1-1/n)^n ~ 1/e e being a number like 2.71 ... So your chance to fail after n mob is more than 1/3. Assume n is 100. Your chance to fail after 500 monsters is still more than 1/3^5  so more than 1/243 So on a serveur with 10 000 players 50 of them will need to kill more than 500 monsters. Large deviation from the mean cannot be tolerated in a MMO. </blockquote>Not quite sure I follow what you're saying. It seems to me that you're suggesting that the odds change on each kill the more of the mob you kill. This simply isn't true. If you have a 1 in 10 chance of a piece dropping each kill, it'll be 1 in 10 on the first kill and 1 in 10 on the hundredth. It also doesn't matter how many players are killing the mob. The rolls are made individually. If I roll a D10, I'll have the same odds of it coming up 5 whether I'm rolling it alone or in a handful of a dozen D10s.</blockquote>No, what he's saying is that while on average, if a mob has a 1/3 chance of giving an update, it may still take substantially more kills than 3 to actually get an update. </blockquote>Yes Indeed if you toss 1000 coin you are super-extremely-very  likely to get about 500 heads.People says that the deviation from the mean is low. If you need to find a pelt that drop with rate 1%, on average you need 100 monstersbut you are still likely to have to kill 500 monsters. This is large deviation from the mean.If someone ask you 20 pelts that drop with rate 1/R the deviation from the mean will be small and most people will have to kill 20R monster. But when you ask for only ONE the deviation get strong and people are quite likelyto have to kill 5 or 10 time the average number of monster needed.

Calris
05-27-2008, 06:35 PM
<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The frustrating part for me is this:</p><p>In a guaranteed ding quest your efforts are always making progress to the end of the quest.</p><p>In a random drop, the quest completion is entirely in the hands of random luck. </p><p>The first one, you are actively progressing the quest. In the second instance you arent...but the RNG is. In the case of the random ding quests I never feel I have completed them with effort, rather with luck alone. </p><p>Kind of like the difference between winning the lottery and making your money through your own dedication and efforts. While the first is nice and all, the second is infinitely more rewarding, for me anyway. </p></blockquote>Well, as I said before, I don't see how it's really any different from the RNG determining whether your attacks hit or miss.

Britefire
05-27-2008, 08:21 PM
has anyone here ever had to get 20 crocodile skins for the coin quest?20 skins in 1000 kills, i counted.maby the RNG just hates me <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Andok
05-27-2008, 08:31 PM
<cite>Brockwurst wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-large;font-family: times new roman,times;color: #990000;">The frustration, for me, is the lack of creativity in the story line.  Someone tells me they'll give me something if I go out and gather 10 rhino horns.  I spot a rhino!  Forsooth, it has a horn!  I kill it and, lo and behold, I get a message I didn't find a quest item!  By all that's right and holy, I can SEE the ding dang horn right there!  Do they think I'm so stupid that I'll go and hunt a [Removed for Content]' rhino for its horn, yet choose one that DIDN'T have one?  </span></p></blockquote>Haha!  It's like the quests that have you kill a creature with a <i>specific adjective</i> before the creature's name, like a "<i>charging </i>rhino" and not getting an update if you kill an "<i>aggressive </i>rhino".   "What do you mean it wasn't charging?  It sure ran at me fast after I stuck an arrow in its backside.  ...and how can you tell anyway just by looking at the rhino's ear?"

Wilde_Night
05-27-2008, 08:40 PM
<p>The Fireknight pages are the only random quest drops that really, really frustrate me.  I mean, most of the L&L drops have been 'fixed' to not be as painful.  *cough* Fix Efreeti and Naga! *cough*  So those don't bug me anymore.  And the other random ones are fine.  We like to run around and threaten the NPC's with "All we need is your softly humming crystals. Hand them over and no one else will get hurt!"  Silly, yeah.  But it keeps us entertained. </p><p>But when our group of 5, who all need the last two Fireknight pages from Kaladim and New Tunaria, have been there for a total of 15 hours each zone and can't find a single update... something is terribly wrong.</p>

TaleraRis
05-27-2008, 10:08 PM
<cite>[email protected] DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">The second paragraph that you failed to quote gave the suggestion that adding another line of text specifying the requirement of the items you're sent to collect answers the points of your response quite nicely.</span><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">And if fonts and colors were not meant to be used, they shouldn't give the option to use them. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: large;font-family: impact,chicago;color: #66ff33;">Ecclectic choices FTW!</span></p></blockquote>By Brell's beard, I've lost my sight!

Amphibia
05-28-2008, 12:26 AM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Brockwurst wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-large;font-family: times new roman,times;color: #990000;">The frustration, for me, is the lack of creativity in the story line.  Someone tells me they'll give me something if I go out and gather 10 rhino horns.  I spot a rhino!  Forsooth, it has a horn!  I kill it and, lo and behold, I get a message I didn't find a quest item!  By all that's right and holy, I can SEE the ding dang horn right there!  Do they think I'm so stupid that I'll go and hunt a [Removed for Content]' rhino for its horn, yet choose one that DIDN'T have one?  Or tigers... gather tiger skins.  Really, who the HECK would hunt a tiger that didn't have a skin???</span></p></blockquote>First off, lose that gaudy huge font, please. It's a bit of an eyesore.</blockquote>Big fonts are at least better than tiny fonts. Some people ALWAYS write their posts in the smallest fonts available, and I just cannot fathom why!!! <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Just like this. Tiny fonts, bold and colored against the black. Can anyone read this without getting a headache?</span></b></span>I just had to say that. Sorry for the derail. I guess some people like to post, but don't want others to be able to <i>read</i> what they post....  :p

Calris
05-28-2008, 01:00 AM
<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Big fonts are at least better than tiny fonts. Some people ALWAYS write their posts in the smallest fonts available, and I just cannot fathom why!!! <span style="color: #ff6600;"><b><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Just like this. Tiny fonts, bold and colored against the black. Can anyone read this without getting a headache?</span></b></span>I just had to say that. Sorry for the derail. I guess some people like to post, but don't want others to be able to <i>read</i> what they post....  :p</blockquote>That color and bolded isn't too bad. Kinda annoying... A darker color and non-bold would be a problem, though.

Razlath
05-28-2008, 12:59 PM
<p>Something my wife and I have discussed is manipulating the mechanic a little bit under the hood.</p><p>Lets say that a mob has 1/X chance of dropping something.  Each time you fail to get the something then the game tracks a hidden ticker up by one.  Each time you kill a mob you have the same chance, but that ticker also goes up by one each time you don't find something.  At some predefined point past X you are garaunteed an update.  You could also do something similar by saying each time you fail you get a number of tries equal to the number of failures since the last success.</p><p>So under the first option if the chance was 1/3 you would get a chance for each kill, but after say 6 kills with no update you get a garaunteed update.  Once you get an update the hidden counter resets and you start over again for the next update.  You still have the random chance but you also have a garauntee that you won't be there until you are 80.  ;}  You might get it quick and it is random and a surprise (which solves the wanting surprise bit), but if you are there long enough you will eventually get the update (which solves the been here forever and still no update bit).</p><p>Under the second option if the chance was 1/3 then you would get a 1/3 chance for the first kill.  If no update then you would get a 1/3 chance twice on the second kill.  If still no update you get 3 1/3 chances on the third kill.  This one keeps things truly random and techincally if the RNG really hates you might still never get that update.  The mathematical odds will eventually stack up next to the odds of spontaenously creating life in your oven, but arguably it is still possible.   Also I can't imagine the routine needed to check for updates at that point.  ;}  5000 loops through the RNG checker might get a bit unwieldy if the RNG just hates you.</p><p>I personally kind of like option one, as it really is just a cushion to be sure that you can't get completely screwed by the RNG.  Most of the time your updates would probably be coming from the true randomness, and since you wouldn't really be able to tell the difference you would probably feel just as accomplished when you got the update.  It just helps to mitigate someone having some really bad luck with the RNG on a night.</p><p>Anyway, just a thought, I actually have not found a quest that is a pain other than L and L, and since those are body drops mostly that give me problems they wouldn't be affected by this anyway.  I like that peeps are picky about what they want back.  It makes the quest a little more interesting IMO.  I can't claim to have paid close attention, but I have not found a picky person yet who didn't explain up front that they wanted something special.</p>

Guy De Alsace
05-28-2008, 01:45 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The frustrating part for me is this:</p><p>In a guaranteed ding quest your efforts are always making progress to the end of the quest.</p><p>In a random drop, the quest completion is entirely in the hands of random luck. </p><p>The first one, you are actively progressing the quest. In the second instance you arent...but the RNG is. In the case of the random ding quests I never feel I have completed them with effort, rather with luck alone. </p><p>Kind of like the difference between winning the lottery and making your money through your own dedication and efforts. While the first is nice and all, the second is infinitely more rewarding, for me anyway. </p></blockquote>Well, as I said before, I don't see how it's really any different from the RNG determining whether your attacks hit or miss.</blockquote><p>Well your chances to hit and miss are affected by the equipment you have aquired through effort as well as all the other stuff you can increase your chances to hit. With a random update, nothing you do increases or decreases the chance....its just pure 100% proof luck.</p><p>Thats the way I see it anyway.</p>

Grumble69
05-28-2008, 02:07 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Something my wife and I have discussed is manipulating the mechanic a little bit under the hood.</p><p>Lets say that a mob has 1/X chance of dropping something.  Each time you fail to get the something then the game tracks a hidden ticker up by one.  Each time you kill a mob you have the same chance, but that ticker also goes up by one each time you don't find something.  At some predefined point past X you are garaunteed an update.  You could also do something similar by saying each time you fail you get a number of tries equal to the number of failures since the last success.</p><p>So under the first option if the chance was 1/3 you would get a chance for each kill, but after say 6 kills with no update you get a garaunteed update.  Once you get an update the hidden counter resets and you start over again for the next update.  You still have the random chance but you also have a garauntee that you won't be there until you are 80.  ;}  You might get it quick and it is random and a surprise (which solves the wanting surprise bit), but if you are there long enough you will eventually get the update (which solves the been here forever and still no update bit).</p><p>Under the second option if the chance was 1/3 then you would get a 1/3 chance for the first kill.  If no update then you would get a 1/3 chance twice on the second kill.  If still no update you get 3 1/3 chances on the third kill.  This one keeps things truly random and techincally if the RNG really hates you might still never get that update.  The mathematical odds will eventually stack up next to the odds of spontaenously creating life in your oven, but arguably it is still possible.   Also I can't imagine the routine needed to check for updates at that point.  ;}  5000 loops through the RNG checker might get a bit unwieldy if the RNG just hates you.</p><p>I personally kind of like option one, as it really is just a cushion to be sure that you can't get completely screwed by the RNG.  Most of the time your updates would probably be coming from the true randomness, and since you wouldn't really be able to tell the difference you would probably feel just as accomplished when you got the update.  It just helps to mitigate someone having some really bad luck with the RNG on a night.</p><p>Anyway, just a thought, I actually have not found a quest that is a pain other than L and L, and since those are body drops mostly that give me problems they wouldn't be affected by this anyway.  I like that peeps are picky about what they want back.  It makes the quest a little more interesting IMO.  I can't claim to have paid close attention, but I have not found a picky person yet who didn't explain up front that they wanted something special.</p></blockquote>I like that first idea.  The only real issue is the storage space to keep track of the counts.  That could really add up with all of the open quests, all of the alts, etc.  But they could allow characters to choose one quest (at any moment in time) to focus upon.  i.e. open journal, right click on a quest, choose 'focus'.  And then the game just keeps track of the kills for that one particular quest.  And if a player chooses to focus on another quest, it just erases the counts for the one he had selected.  ...that shouldn't take up a lot of additional space. 

Razlath
05-28-2008, 02:20 PM
<cite>Grumble69 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like that first idea.  The only real issue is the storage space to keep track of the counts.  That could really add up with all of the open quests, all of the alts, etc.  But they could allow characters to choose one quest (at any moment in time) to focus upon.  i.e. open journal, right click on a quest, choose 'focus'.  And then the game just keeps track of the kills for that one particular quest.  And if a player chooses to focus on another quest, it just erases the counts for the one he had selected.  ...that shouldn't take up a lot of additional space.  </blockquote><p>You could also just not store it past logout.  That would cut down on permanent storage, though temp storage would still be an issue.  I am sure there are quite a few technical problems that they would have to work out.</p><p>I would just hate to see the random updates go away as they do keep things a little more interesting and in my opinion most of the time much more realistic.  If I was told to go collect a rare pelt and it updated every time I would be like...wow that is dumb.  By the same token if the quest was changed to, bring me 50 any quality hides, I would be like...how stupid, this guy doesn't even care if the hides are useable, that is dumb.</p><p>At the same time, mobs with placeholders are already rare, and should in my opinion never be on a chance to update they should always be garaunteed.  I have personally never run into these, but I am not going to claim I have done every quest in the game either.  If these are at the end of quest lines that can't decide if they are heroic or solo I can almost garauntee I have not done them.  ;}</p>