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View Full Version : Overpowered stoneskin items need changing in PVP - BADLY


Kru
01-13-2008, 08:17 PM
I urge anybody interested in PVP balance to read the following thread at EQ2 Flames.  At the very least, if we can't convince the developers that this is overpowered and needs changing, than maybe we can get enough transparency on the issue, that every mage in the game starts stacking 4 pieces of stoneskin gear and we start seeing mages kill everybody.  At that point, it would be harder to ignore the extreme overpowered nature of stacking 4 stoneskin items, and then combining manashield on top of that.<a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-player-issues/18366-overpowered-stoneskin-needs-changing-badly.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-...ging-badly.html</a>

Dh
01-14-2008, 12:42 AM
<p>Remove outright resists and Rogue offense stance interrupt proc which goes off 5.9 times per minute (every swing) first.  Or just make it so mages cant be interrupted and rogues miss with 80% their attacks to.</p>

Kru
01-14-2008, 05:07 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Remove outright resists and Rogue offense stance interrupt proc which goes off 5.9 times per minute (every swing) first.  Or just make it so mages cant be interrupted and rogues miss with 80% their attacks to.</p></blockquote>There's a slight problem with your comparison.  Actually, a huge problem.  We're talking about an effect on an item, which is basically a permanent buff that stays on your character 100% of the time.  You can't compare apples to oranges, which is exactly what you're doing.  There's a huge difference between effects on items and class abilities.

G1Joe
01-14-2008, 05:33 AM
<p>There are all sorts of other things Id love the devs to balance first before they worry about dispersion</p><p>Defilers being one of em! fixing stoneskin items wont help me tbh.</p>

Kru
01-14-2008, 06:53 AM
<cite>G1Joe wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are all sorts of other things Id love the devs to balance first before they worry about dispersion</p><p>Defilers being one of em! fixing stoneskin items wont help me tbh.</p></blockquote>As much as everybody would like the whole world to be about "me, me me!!", it cannot be so.  It's important to recognize that this overpowered dispersion effect affects a lot of people.  Just because it doesn't affect you directly or just because there's other things that need fixing, does not mean that this is not a problem.

Shadow_Viper
01-14-2008, 07:32 AM
<p>I highly suggest that everyone read carefully through the first post in this thread. It is very helpful with alot of good advice.</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Helpful Thread</a></p>

Elephanton
01-14-2008, 07:37 AM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I highly suggest that everyone read carefully through the first post in this thread. It is very helpful with alot of good advice.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Helpful Thread</a></p></blockquote>Dude, you do sound like a broken record on these forums.If you don't have anything to say on topic, better just don't reply at all.

Elephanton
01-14-2008, 07:39 AM
Stoneskin items for clothies are fine IMO.Manashield is not.

Shadow_Viper
01-14-2008, 07:53 AM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I highly suggest that everyone read carefully through the first post in this thread. It is very helpful with alot of good advice.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Helpful Thread</a></p></blockquote>Dude, you do sound like a broken record on these forums.If you don't have anything to say on topic, better just don't reply at all.</blockquote><p>Hmm someone's complaining about how something is "overpowered" and needs nerfed. Seems on topic to me. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>The thread holds very useful information and some rather wise insight. </p><p>If you're having a problem with something, rather than ask that it be changed/nerfed/removed, learn how you can adapt and overcome the situation. The class boards are a great place to start. Overall it'll increase your skill as a player.</p>

Elephanton
01-14-2008, 08:27 AM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I highly suggest that everyone read carefully through the first post in this thread. It is very helpful with alot of good advice.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Helpful Thread</a></p></blockquote>Dude, you do sound like a broken record on these forums.If you don't have anything to say on topic, better just don't reply at all.</blockquote><p>Hmm someone's complaining about how something is "overpowered" and needs nerfed. Seems on topic to me. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>The thread holds very useful information and some rather wise insight. </p><p>If you're having a problem with something, rather than ask that it be changed/nerfed/removed, learn how you can adapt and overcome the situation. The class boards are a great place to start. Overall it'll increase your skill as a player.</p></blockquote><p>There are TONS of things which you could not possibly adapt to that were already addressed by nerfs.There are TONS of things which you cannot possibly adapt to, which are not addressed yet, but soon will be.</p><p>You can't argue these facts. So please stop sound like a broken record, telling other to adapt to broken mechanics.Go to any class board yourself, and try to find at least one plausible way for a clothy to survive rushing CC immune scout in T8 with 1000 autoattack damage. You won't find it.</p>

Necodem
01-14-2008, 09:36 AM
Or at least disable it for sorcerers. Stoneskin items for summoners and enchanters is ok.

Oneira
01-14-2008, 09:43 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Or at least disable it for sorcerers. Stoneskin items for <strike>summoners and enchanters</strike> mage classes without manashield is ok.</blockquote>fixed.

Kru
01-14-2008, 10:56 AM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I highly suggest that everyone read carefully through the first post in this thread. It is very helpful with alot of good advice.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Helpful Thread</a></p></blockquote>And I do suggest you read my reply to that thread.  Posted before you even posted this post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kru
01-14-2008, 10:58 AM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I highly suggest that everyone read carefully through the first post in this thread. It is very helpful with alot of good advice.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Helpful Thread</a></p></blockquote>Dude, you do sound like a broken record on these forums.If you don't have anything to say on topic, better just don't reply at all.</blockquote><p>Hmm someone's complaining about how something is "overpowered" and needs nerfed. Seems on topic to me. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>The thread holds very useful information and some rather wise insight. </p><p>If you're having a problem with something, rather than ask that it be changed/nerfed/removed, learn how you can adapt and overcome the situation. The class boards are a great place to start. Overall it'll increase your skill as a player.</p></blockquote>If I were some noob that started playing 6 weeks ago and was level 36, you might be right on the dot...However, seeing as I'm a very experienced level 80 pvp'er, this thought goes out the window.  There is no way to "cope" with stoneskin, or "adapt" to it.  You can't strip it, it's there 100% of the time, you just have to deal with it.  Do yourself a favor and read my reply to that thread.  I already explained in depth how rule #3 is complete garbage.

Heleptra
01-14-2008, 11:19 AM
Same time take a way the swasys long range,

Quinath
01-14-2008, 12:24 PM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Remove outright resists and Rogue offense stance interrupt proc which goes off 5.9 times per minute (every swing) first.  Or just make it so mages cant be interrupted and rogues miss with 80% their attacks to.</p></blockquote>There's a slight problem with your comparison.  Actually, a huge problem.  We're talking about an effect on an item, which is basically a permanent buff that stays on your character 100% of the time.  You can't compare apples to oranges, which is exactly what you're doing.  There's a huge difference between effects on items and class abilities.</blockquote><p>I'm willing to bet that you couldn't care less about a few stoneskin procs while burst-killing an enchanter or summoner. Your problem is with stoneskin + manashield, which also happens to be a class ability.</p><p>We're talking about short-duration buffs (well, 30 sec could be considered long depending on the situation) that can absorb and/or prevent a very large amount of damage. I could name a few others...  cleric and crusader divine aura, monk tsunami, pvp belt, etc.  The defense against these is no different: distract, disengage, wait for the effect to wear off.</p>

Dh
01-14-2008, 12:48 PM
<p>Khrul - If you cannot beat a sorcerer with manashield with their long cast times and every one of your attacks being an interrupt, then maybe you should use your uninterruptable evac when one of them pops on your track window.</p><p>I fought you on my wizard. You didn't even cure my root but you resisted my stifles/snare/stun when my 1st nuke finally landed and broke my root on the first shot. You then killed me because of resists and interupting me 20 times in a row. IMO you were not a very skilled brigand but still won. Grats. I think you just play a very simple class and don't really have any business asking for a nerf.</p>

Marcula
01-14-2008, 04:43 PM
<p><span style="color: #00ccff;">Fought two Brigs yesterday (Yes I am a mostly solo Warlock) and one was 3 levels below, the other 4 levels and the only difference in the fights was one killed me in 4 seconds and the other in 5. I managed to get one spell off in both cases and they were both resisted. I tried to get off manashield and ended up pressing the revive button both times instead. I am fine with this as I rolled a mage knowing some scouts can eat me......... </span></p><p><span style="color: #00ccff;">But stop [Removed for Content] about my class........</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ccff;">Bloodsplatter ~ Warlock</span></p>

Necromance
01-14-2008, 05:34 PM
<p>link this stoneskin items please <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Kru
01-14-2008, 08:31 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Khrul - If you cannot beat a sorcerer with manashield with their long cast times and every one of your attacks being an interrupt, then maybe you should use your uninterruptable evac when one of them pops on your track window.</p><p>I fought you on my wizard. You didn't even cure my root but you resisted my stifles/snare/stun when my 1st nuke finally landed and broke my root on the first shot. You then killed me because of resists and interupting me 20 times in a row. IMO you were not a very skilled brigand but still won. Grats. I think you just play a very simple class and don't really have any business asking for a nerf.</p></blockquote>You obviously didn't even read my post.  Grats on responding without reading first.It wasn't me having a hard time killing a warlock...it was me and two friends that couldn't kill a warlock for nearly 3 minutes.  THAT'S a problem.  Had he lasted that long vs. ONLY me...there wouldn't be too much of an issue..but considering there were 3 different people beating on him at the same time, I think that's the ridiculous part.  Best estimate is he absorbed 25,000-30,000 damage from stoneskin alone from 3 seperate players.  You want to tell me that's balanced, and there's nothing wrong with that?  Than go right ahead and keep kidding yourself.Your opinion is your opinion.  I have many others on this board and on EQ2 Flames which would disagree with you and tell you that I'm one of the most skilled brigs in the game.Secondly, your justification for me not being able to ask the developers to look into a nerf is I play a very simple class?  What type of argument is that?  Seriously.  I play a simple class, so my opinion means nothing?  Give me a break.  If you want to disagree with me, at least come up with something substantive.

Kru
01-14-2008, 08:31 PM
<cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Remove outright resists and Rogue offense stance interrupt proc which goes off 5.9 times per minute (every swing) first.  Or just make it so mages cant be interrupted and rogues miss with 80% their attacks to.</p></blockquote>There's a slight problem with your comparison.  Actually, a huge problem.  We're talking about an effect on an item, which is basically a permanent buff that stays on your character 100% of the time.  You can't compare apples to oranges, which is exactly what you're doing.  There's a huge difference between effects on items and class abilities.</blockquote><p>I'm willing to bet that you couldn't care less about a few stoneskin procs while burst-killing an enchanter or summoner. Your problem is with stoneskin + manashield, which also happens to be a class ability.</p><p>We're talking about short-duration buffs (well, 30 sec could be considered long depending on the situation) that can absorb and/or prevent a very large amount of damage. I could name a few others...  cleric and crusader divine aura, monk tsunami, pvp belt, etc.  The defense against these is no different: distract, disengage, wait for the effect to wear off.</p></blockquote>My issue is with the stoneskin items Fyreflyte implemented.  Manashield is stupid in pvp, yes, but I'm not trying to argue that point right now.  I just want the stoneskin items looked at, as I think it's pretty ridiculous in its current form.

Dh
01-14-2008, 08:53 PM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Khrul - If you cannot beat a sorcerer with manashield with their long cast times and every one of your attacks being an interrupt, then maybe you should use your uninterruptable evac when one of them pops on your track window.</p><p>I fought you on my wizard. You didn't even cure my root but you resisted my stifles/snare/stun when my 1st nuke finally landed and broke my root on the first shot. You then killed me because of resists and interupting me 20 times in a row. IMO you were not a very skilled brigand but still won. Grats. I think you just play a very simple class and don't really have any business asking for a nerf.</p></blockquote>You obviously didn't even read my post.  Grats on responding without reading first.It wasn't me having a hard time killing a warlock...it was me and two friends that couldn't kill a warlock for nearly 3 minutes.  THAT'S a problem.  Had he lasted that long vs. ONLY me...there wouldn't be too much of an issue..but considering there were 3 different people beating on him at the same time, I think that's the ridiculous part.  Best estimate is he absorbed 25,000-30,000 damage from stoneskin alone from 3 seperate players.  You want to tell me that's balanced, and there's nothing wrong with that?  Than go right ahead and keep kidding yourself.Your opinion is your opinion.  I have many others on this board and on EQ2 Flames which would disagree with you and tell you that I'm one of the most skilled brigs in the game.Secondly, your justification for me not being able to ask the developers to look into a nerf is I play a very simple class?  What type of argument is that?  Seriously.  I play a simple class, so my opinion means nothing?  Give me a break.  If you want to disagree with me, at least come up with something substantive.</blockquote>I don't believe a warlock couldnt kill all 3 of you in 3 minutes.

Kru
01-14-2008, 08:59 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Khrul - If you cannot beat a sorcerer with manashield with their long cast times and every one of your attacks being an interrupt, then maybe you should use your uninterruptable evac when one of them pops on your track window.</p><p>I fought you on my wizard. You didn't even cure my root but you resisted my stifles/snare/stun when my 1st nuke finally landed and broke my root on the first shot. You then killed me because of resists and interupting me 20 times in a row. IMO you were not a very skilled brigand but still won. Grats. I think you just play a very simple class and don't really have any business asking for a nerf.</p></blockquote>You obviously didn't even read my post.  Grats on responding without reading first.It wasn't me having a hard time killing a warlock...it was me and two friends that couldn't kill a warlock for nearly 3 minutes.  THAT'S a problem.  Had he lasted that long vs. ONLY me...there wouldn't be too much of an issue..but considering there were 3 different people beating on him at the same time, I think that's the ridiculous part.  Best estimate is he absorbed 25,000-30,000 damage from stoneskin alone from 3 seperate players.  You want to tell me that's balanced, and there's nothing wrong with that?  Than go right ahead and keep kidding yourself.Your opinion is your opinion.  I have many others on this board and on EQ2 Flames which would disagree with you and tell you that I'm one of the most skilled brigs in the game.Secondly, your justification for me not being able to ask the developers to look into a nerf is I play a very simple class?  What type of argument is that?  Seriously.  I play a simple class, so my opinion means nothing?  Give me a break.  If you want to disagree with me, at least come up with something substantive.</blockquote>I don't believe a warlock couldnt kill all 3 of you in 3 minutes.</blockquote>Wow so you're kind of proving my point.  You're saying one warlock should be able to take on 3 people at once, and win?That's a pretty absurd statement if you ask me.  I think the fact that we were interrupting him every second or two had something to do with us not dying.  Stoneskin absorbing 10,000 damage per person, against 3 players..for nearly 30,000 damage absorption?  That's pretty absurd as well.

Kiintac
01-14-2008, 10:24 PM
Is anyone else seeing how ironic this is that an overpowered Brig is complaining he can't kill someone in 5 secs or less anymore.  I guess, if you are used to beating any class but now you can't; I can see why you would want a nerf to these items.....How dare casters get items to stop scouts from killing them before they can react !!!   Such an outrage !!The PvP in this game is so messed up it is ridiculous.....the bad part is the devs don't care.One shot pets...Scouts that can kill EVERY class (even plate) with ease. Insane spell resists for the low health casters.Almost everyone can evac.Where will it end or what new MMO will take us from this misery....

Kru
01-15-2008, 12:07 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone else seeing how ironic this is that an overpowered Brig is complaining he can't kill someone in 5 secs or less anymore.  I guess, if you are used to beating any class but now you can't; I can see why you would want a nerf to these items.....How dare casters get items to stop scouts from killing them before they can react !!!   Such an outrage !!The PvP in this game is so messed up it is ridiculous.....the bad part is the devs don't care.One shot pets...Scouts that can kill EVERY class (even plate) with ease. Insane spell resists for the low health casters.Almost everyone can evac.Where will it end or what new MMO will take us from this misery....</blockquote>I agree there a lot of things wrong with PVP..things which will most likely never get ironed out by the devs.  However, you, like many others who have replied, failed to even read my entire post.I urge you to read it, and then come back with informed replies.  You indicate I'm complaining I can't kill someone in 5 seconds or less?  Wrong...it wasn't just me fighting this Warlock, there were 3 of us total.  And it wasn't 5 seconds, or even 60 seconds.  We're talking close to 180 seconds of combat, 3v1, without him dying.  There's a huge difference.In addition, like I've said before, this isn't a complaint against any particular class, it's a complaint against an overpowered effect on an item.  An effect which you can stack 4 different times, and then add buffs on top of that to make it proc even MORE.Also, when stoneskin is proccing, not only is it absorbing thousands of damage (in this case, close to 30,000 hitpoints of damage), it's also giving them back mana at the same time.  The proc needs to be looked at, end of story.

Kiintac
01-15-2008, 03:23 AM
...and once again, Kruhl I've seen scouts (Brigs/Swash) take out groups of three and live.   You are very frustrated that this kinda of crap happens as well as I am frustrated that scouts/bruisers can kill me before I can have a chance to react or able to do so.   The frustration is the same.....and both is crap.  Everyday I can't believe I pay money for this, when it is so clear the devs did not test the PvP implications of the gear and damage they placed in the game.Don't take my comments personally Kruhl, you didn't make the game nor the mechanics thereof.  However,  I have come to hate/laugh/gasp at all cries from scouts, who for the most part,  don't know how hard PvP actually is and what us casters put up with everyday.  

Biaxil
01-15-2008, 03:42 AM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stoneskin items for clothies are fine IMO.Manashield is not.</blockquote><p>whats your problem with manashield?  Are you kidding.  If mages didn't have it, we wouldn't live.  Zerkers have something similar in their stamina line too.</p>

Sightless
01-15-2008, 03:53 AM
<p>Kruhl</p><p>They should remove stoneskin items from cloth casters when they remove the parry belt, and stoneskin items from your class.</p>

Kru
01-15-2008, 04:34 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>...and once again, Kruhl I've seen scouts (Brigs/Swash) take out groups of three and live.   You are very frustrated that this kinda of crap happens as well as I am frustrated that scouts/bruisers can kill me before I can have a chance to react or able to do so.   The frustration is the same.....and both is crap.  Everyday I can't believe I pay money for this, when it is so clear the devs did not test the PvP implications of the gear and damage they placed in the game.Don't take my comments personally Kruhl, you didn't make the game nor the mechanics thereof.  However,  I have come to hate/laugh/gasp at all cries from scouts, who for the most part,  don't know how hard PvP actually is and what us casters put up with everyday.   </blockquote>I have high level alts, so I'm quite aware of how it is on the other end.  I'm not your average every day noob who is clueless about PVP and its implications.  I have never seen a level 80 scout take on 3 other level 80's and win.  I've never even done that myself.  I've killed groups of 4 and 5 before, but they were a mixture of lower level green cons.

Kru
01-15-2008, 04:38 AM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Kruhl</p><p>They should remove stoneskin items from cloth casters when they remove the parry belt, and stoneskin items from your class.</p></blockquote>Two things-1- I've been asking them to remove the pvp belt since it was implemented.  Amen, agreed 100%.2- Our class can't use any stoneskin items that drop to this day.  There are only a few scouts running around with pre-nerfed stoneskin items, but they aren't nearly as powerful as the stoneskin items clothies are wearing.  For example, Fyreflyte nerfed the proc chance on the dispersion proc if you're a class that isn't supposed to be wearing the item in the first place (i.e., scouts).  So if you were one of the lucky few to have a pre-nerfed stoneskin item, the proc chance is not 10%, but a mere 1% or 3% (I don't exactly remember the number.)  The point is, stoneskin items that still drop to this day that clothies can wear, are overpowered and need to be looked at.

Faenril
01-15-2008, 07:24 AM
We all have seen solo scouts wipe out little groups of same level, say duo or trios. As well as I'm sure a good zerker, brawler or warlock can do the same. It all depends on who is controlling the solo, who are controlling the opponents, gear and the odds of the encounter, who gets the jump, so this is not really an argument ... As far as the pvp belt is concerned, it's just plain dumb, as any "big cooldown" item or skill in pvp. Let's say you play a scout with pvp belt and meet 2 other scouts with pvp belt in a row, you may beat the first one thanks to your belt, and die to the second because of his belt ? That makes no sense. So are you supposed to stay immune or gate for the whole duration of the cooldown ? The funny thing is nobody can argue pvp belt was not designed for PVP, since it's a PVP reward. I *assume* the dev who designs the PVP rewards should have a clue about PVP <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

TheLastB
01-15-2008, 09:42 AM
<p>fact of the matter is that clothies NEED the stoneskin items to compete in pvp due to the absurdely overpowered t8 weapons and the amount they auto attack for..</p><p> Id be happy for the stoneskin items to be nerfed when they put a cap on pvp autoattack dmg.</p><p> its just no fun to be auto attacked for 2k with a 1h weapon.</p><p> pvp servers are still 75% scouts of the total population...........crying about the smallest number of people (casters) to have them nerfed just doesnt make sense.</p><p>maybe after a total caster domination of 2years they could see that its overpowered but the majority of the titles are still held by scouts and not casters.....lets face it scouts had it really very good for the longest time........could even rename the game to EverScout2.....maybe theres incentive to start changing the mix.</p>

Kru
01-15-2008, 10:51 AM
<cite>TheLastBoy wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>fact of the matter is that clothies NEED the stoneskin items to compete in pvp due to the absurdely overpowered t8 weapons and the amount they auto attack for..</p><p> Id be happy for the stoneskin items to be nerfed when they put a cap on pvp autoattack dmg.</p><p> its just no fun to be auto attacked for 2k with a 1h weapon.</p><p> pvp servers are still 75% scouts of the total population...........crying about the smallest number of people (casters) to have them nerfed just doesnt make sense.</p><p>maybe after a total caster domination of 2years they could see that its overpowered but the majority of the titles are still held by scouts and not casters.....lets face it scouts had it really very good for the longest time........could even rename the game to EverScout2.....maybe theres incentive to start changing the mix.</p></blockquote>And the solution is to allow overpowered item effects to exist, to offset this balance you speak of?  I don't think so.  There are much more direct and efficient ways of accomplishing this goal. 

DS_Wind
01-15-2008, 11:15 AM
<p>sry man, but i can see only one thing on screen u made, is that stoneskin absorbed good portion of dmg ... nothing more</p><p>it is not full combat logs so we can't make any conclusions what sort of fight it was and how long it took place ...plz man <span style="color: #00cc33;">stop tell us fairy tales </span>that it took 3 min for 3 top chars to kill robe class ... as scout u may make 10k+ dmg in several seconds...</p><p>so let's just look on statistics:u said with 4 items robe will have <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ chance to absorb dmg</span>, so i'll take u about <span style="color: #ff3300;">4</span><span style="color: #ff3300;">0%+ more time to kill robe </span>...<span style="color: #ff3300;">scout need</span><span style="color: #ff3300;"> 3-6 sec to kill robe </span>(with out manashield) ...<span style="color: #ff3300;">with 4 absorb items it'll be 2-3 more in average </span>(with manashield more 40%+)</p><p>so as i understood the only reason of ur post that u don't like that +40% time u need to kill (a bit more seconds)!</p>

Kru
01-15-2008, 11:21 AM
<cite>DS_Wind wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>sry man, but i can see only one thing on screen u made, is that stoneskin absorbed good portion of dmg ... nothing more</p><p>it is not full combat logs so we can't make any conclusions what sort of fight it was and how long it took place ...plz man <span style="color: #00cc33;">stop tell us fairy tales </span>that it took 3 min for 3 top chars to kill robe class ... as scout u may make 10k+ dmg in several seconds...</p><p>so let's just look on statistics:u said with 4 items robe will have <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ chance to absorb dmg</span>, so i'll take u about <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ more time to kill robe </span>...<span style="color: #ff3300;">scout need</span><span style="color: #ff3300;"> 3-6 sec to kill robe </span>(with out manashield) ...<span style="color: #ff3300;">with 4 absorb items it'll be 4-8 sec </span>(with manashield more+30%)</p><p>so as i understood the only reason of ur post that u don't like that +30% time u need to kill (a bit more seconds)!</p></blockquote>Wow - completely moronic post here.  First of all, no fairy tales are being told here.  Go ask Krokorouge himself.  There were 3 of us pounding on him for quite a while.  Add up the damage yourself, over 10,000 damage absorbed from me alone.In addition, your math is WAYYYYYYY off.  You either need to take some math courses, or learn about the proc before you start spouting off at the mouth.  Your math does not take into consideration the fact that stoneskin does not absorb a set amount of damage, but instead, completely deflects one attack, completely at random.  This attack could be for 4,500 damage...the attack could be for 200 damage.  So the possibility exists for this item to absorb TONS of damage.  My initial guess is the developers did with this what they do with just about everything else in the game - they implement it with PVE in mind, and then look like dumbasses when people start using it in PVP.

DS_Wind
01-15-2008, 12:08 PM
<p>man, u just trying to f*** our brains again</p><p>u writes ...hmm... whatever ... just to be "right" lol</p><p>ur <span style="color: #ff3300;">screen shows nothing</span>! <span style="color: #ff3300;">why u didn't post normal combat logs</span>, and posted that crap?? maybe u don't have combat logs? lol (ask ur friends to help u with it)and i am not going to ask ur friend A and friend B coz u made this post to prove something not me, and u still can't show and said anything smart...</p><p>Kruhl, i know how proc works very good, and <span style="color: #ff3300;">clear imagine that there won't be any exact 30% absorb in fight </span>(and all other ppl and 100% u too knows that and understood what i mean about that 30%)!</p><p>In ur style i may write ...4 items may let pass 2 hits for 5k and will absorb only 1 hit for 125 so the possibility exists for this items to absorb NOTHING! lol</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300;">If all u said true and that char absorbed 90%+ (in other way he couldn't live so long) of ur dmg in 3 min then make BUG </span><span style="color: #ff3300;">report, not post about "Overpowered".  </span></p>

Krakelkr
01-15-2008, 12:31 PM
<cite>DS_Wind wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>so let's just look on statistics:u said with 4 items robe will have <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ chance to absorb dmg</span>, so i'll take u about <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ more time to kill robe </span>...<span style="color: #ff3300;">scout need</span><span style="color: #ff3300;"> 3-6 sec to kill robe </span>(with out manashield) ...<span style="color: #ff3300;">with 4 absorb items it'll be 4-8 sec </span>(with manashield more+30%)</p><p>so as i understood the only reason of ur post that u don't like that +30% time u need to kill (a bit more seconds)!</p></blockquote><p>This type of argument needs to STOP now. They are completely wrong and it's a shame we see them so often here.</p><p>According to this logic, if I do 100% less damage it will take me 100% more time to kill someone. Like from 10 seconds to 20, right. Spot anything wrong with that?</p><p>The same argument has been made for % less dps and is wrong for the same reasons.</p><p>But even if you'd calculate the time it would take properly there are new factors entering the equation such as more time for the opponent to react to your attacks, e.g., cast heals debuff you, root, snare, mez etc. Just forget these arguments now. They're bogus.</p>

Krakelkr
01-15-2008, 12:53 PM
<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DS_Wind wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>so let's just look on statistics:u said with 4 items robe will have <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ chance to absorb dmg</span>, so i'll take u about <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ more time to kill robe </span>...<span style="color: #ff3300;">scout need</span><span style="color: #ff3300;"> 3-6 sec to kill robe </span>(with out manashield) ...<span style="color: #ff3300;">with 4 absorb items it'll be 4-8 sec </span>(with manashield more+30%)</p><p>so as i understood the only reason of ur post that u don't like that +30% time u need to kill (a bit more seconds)!</p></blockquote><p>This type of argument needs to STOP now. They are completely wrong and it's a shame we see them so often here.</p><p>According to this logic, if I do 100% less damage it will take me 100% more time to kill someone. Like from 10 seconds to 20, right. Spot anything wrong with that?</p><p>The same argument has been made for % less dps and is wrong for the same reasons.</p><p>But even if you'd calculate the time it would take properly there are new factors entering the equation such as more time for the opponent to react to your attacks, e.g., cast heals debuff you, root, snare, mez etc. Just forget these arguments now. They're bogus.</p></blockquote>I think I just fell for the tortoise and hare fallacy...

DS_Wind
01-15-2008, 12:57 PM
<p>i just don't believe that 30%+ absorb may make robe total overpowered (as majority in this topic)Kruhl u just LOLas 80% of ur last posts senseless and contains only tons of crap and affronts ... lol i understood that u just nervous noob and nothing to talk with u about..lolto Krakelkrak again...<span style="color: #ff3300;">yes that 30% random, it may proc 2 times in fight, may 1, may 3, may [Removed for Content] 5, maybe on 5k hit maybe on 100 one ... but in average overall it will be + - 30% and the more fight the nearer will be this 30% </span></p><p><i>p.s sry for linguistic mistakes, english isn't not my native language</i></p>

MaCloud1032
01-15-2008, 12:58 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stoneskin items for clothies are fine IMO.Manashield is not.</blockquote><p>whats your problem with manashield?  Are you kidding.  If mages didn't have it, we wouldn't live.  Zerkers have something similar in their stamina line too.</p></blockquote>Umm its there agi line not there sta line that is crusaders that get 10sec from the sta line.  I also belive that the warrior one stifles them so they cant cast anything.

Krakelkr
01-15-2008, 01:11 PM
<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DS_Wind wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>so let's just look on statistics:u said with 4 items robe will have <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ chance to absorb dmg</span>, so i'll take u about <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ more time to kill robe </span>...<span style="color: #ff3300;">scout need</span><span style="color: #ff3300;"> 3-6 sec to kill robe </span>(with out manashield) ...<span style="color: #ff3300;">with 4 absorb items it'll be 4-8 sec </span>(with manashield more+30%)</p><p>so as i understood the only reason of ur post that u don't like that +30% time u need to kill (a bit more seconds)!</p></blockquote><p>This type of argument needs to STOP now. They are completely wrong and it's a shame we see them so often here.</p><p>According to this logic, if I do 100% less damage it will take me 100% more time to kill someone. Like from 10 seconds to 20, right. Spot anything wrong with that?</p><p>The same argument has been made for % less dps and is wrong for the same reasons.</p><p>But even if you'd calculate the time it would take properly there are new factors entering the equation such as more time for the opponent to react to your attacks, e.g., cast heals debuff you, root, snare, mez etc. Just forget these arguments now. They're bogus.</p></blockquote>I think I just fell for the tortoise and hare fallacy...</blockquote><p>Before I confuse everyone and myself:</p><p>10% less dps amounts to 11% more time to death.30% less dps amounts to 43% more time 50% les dps, 100% more time, etc.</p>

simpwrx02
01-15-2008, 01:32 PM
So you are saying that 3 brig would normally take 1 min 30 secs to kill a robe.  I mean if the proc was up every time possibel the robe would still get hit every other attack as procs like that do not stack.

Amphibia
01-15-2008, 02:14 PM
All I know is that these stoneskin items don't do <i>that </i>much for me as a chanter. I can't let a brigand get near me at all, or I'll die in 3 seconds no matter what. I've seen those things proc, though it rarely happens more than once or maybe twice during a fight. But whatever. Mages without manashield are just annoying to play now anyways because of the insane resist rate and no innate defense, so why not get the stoneskin items nerfed too? Go for it.

Quinath
01-15-2008, 02:18 PM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I urge you to read it, and then come back with informed replies.  You indicate I'm complaining I can't kill someone in 5 seconds or less?  Wrong...it wasn't just me fighting this Warlock, there were 3 of us total.  And it wasn't 5 seconds, or even 60 seconds.  We're talking close to 180 seconds of combat, 3v1, without him dying.  There's a huge difference.</blockquote><p>This is absolute rubbish.  If any of you knew where any of your buttons are that controlls your toon, this situation is impossible.</p><p> Manashiled lasts 30 seconds with a 90 second cooldown. Figure the mage has 6k hitpoints.  The most he could possibly stoneskin is 1/2 of the attacks, but that is also not possible since they do not stack.  You're saying that during a 90 second period of no manashield, the 3 of you could not inflict at least 12k in damage (worst case scenario.)?  That's like, 44 dps per person.  You're full of [Removed for Content].</p>

Kru
01-15-2008, 02:57 PM
<cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I urge you to read it, and then come back with informed replies.  You indicate I'm complaining I can't kill someone in 5 seconds or less?  Wrong...it wasn't just me fighting this Warlock, there were 3 of us total.  And it wasn't 5 seconds, or even 60 seconds.  We're talking close to 180 seconds of combat, 3v1, without him dying.  There's a huge difference.</blockquote><p>This is absolute rubbish.  If any of you knew where any of your buttons are that controlls your toon, this situation is impossible.</p><p> Manashiled lasts 30 seconds with a 90 second cooldown. Figure the mage has 6k hitpoints.  The most he could possibly stoneskin is 1/2 of the attacks, but that is also not possible since they do not stack.  You're saying that during a 90 second period of no manashield, the 3 of you could not inflict at least 12k in damage (worst case scenario.)?  That's like, 44 dps per person.  You're full of [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p></blockquote>Believe it my friend, it happened.  I wouldn't be posting here if it hadn't.  That's what happens when you have stoneskin items absorbing nearly 30,000 damage.If you're having a hard time wrapping your mind around this one, let me put it to you in simpler terms.  He absorbed around 11,000 hitpoints of damage from ME ALONE.  If he had 6k hitpoints like you believe, that's almost twice his hitpoints.Show me ANY OTHER ITEMS in the game that are on your character 100% of the time that give you a damage ward vs. all damage for nearly twice the amount of your max hitpoints.  Then add that up for every single person attacking you.I can't think of anything.  If you can, please link it.

DS_Wind
01-15-2008, 03:59 PM
<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DS_Wind wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>so let's just look on statistics:u said with 4 items robe will have <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ chance to absorb dmg</span>, so i'll take u about <span style="color: #ff3300;">30%+ more time to kill robe </span>...<span style="color: #ff3300;">scout need</span><span style="color: #ff3300;"> 3-6 sec to kill robe </span>(with out manashield) ...<span style="color: #ff3300;">with 4 absorb items it'll be 4-8 sec </span>(with manashield more+30%)</p><p>so as i understood the only reason of ur post that u don't like that +30% time u need to kill (a bit more seconds)!</p></blockquote><p>This type of argument needs to STOP now. They are completely wrong and it's a shame we see them so often here.</p><p>According to this logic, if I do 100% less damage it will take me 100% more time to kill someone. Like from 10 seconds to 20, right. Spot anything wrong with that?</p><p>The same argument has been made for % less dps and is wrong for the same reasons.</p><p>But even if you'd calculate the time it would take properly there are new factors entering the equation such as more time for the opponent to react to your attacks, e.g., cast heals debuff you, root, snare, mez etc. Just forget these arguments now. They're bogus.</p></blockquote>I think I just fell for the tortoise and hare fallacy...</blockquote><p>Before I confuse everyone and myself:</p><p>10% less dps amounts to 11% more time to death.30% less dps amounts to 43% more time 50% les dps, 100% more time, etc.</p></blockquote><p>agree man 30%+ of absorb will count as 40%+ time average (corrected previous post)but u have to agree too that it will be only a bit more seconds for robe...+ top normal equip scouts under freedom potion have no problems to burn robe class with manashield up;+ not all robe class have manashield;</p><p>about that long fight:- maybe be it was bug with procs, then it sure have to be fix;- maybe be it was uber luck and char will absorb 10 times less next time;but in both variants i don't see reason to completely remove or nerf  item for robe class;</p><p>imho total overpowered with such items can be raid tanks (in PvM) and healers (in PvP) but both inaccessible atm (0,001% not count) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p><i>p.s sry for linguistic mistakes</i></p>

Sightless
01-15-2008, 05:22 PM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I urge you to read it, and then come back with informed replies.  You indicate I'm complaining I can't kill someone in 5 seconds or less?  Wrong...it wasn't just me fighting this Warlock, there were 3 of us total.  And it wasn't 5 seconds, or even 60 seconds.  We're talking close to 180 seconds of combat, 3v1, without him dying.  There's a huge difference.</blockquote><p>This is absolute rubbish.  If any of you knew where any of your buttons are that controlls your toon, this situation is impossible.</p><p> Manashiled lasts 30 seconds with a 90 second cooldown. Figure the mage has 6k hitpoints.  The most he could possibly stoneskin is 1/2 of the attacks, but that is also not possible since they do not stack.  You're saying that during a 90 second period of no manashield, the 3 of you could not inflict at least 12k in damage (worst case scenario.)?  That's like, 44 dps per person.  You're full of [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p></blockquote>Believe it my friend, it happened.  I wouldn't be posting here if it hadn't.  That's what happens when you have stoneskin items absorbing nearly 30,000 damage.If you're having a hard time wrapping your mind around this one, let me put it to you in simpler terms.  He absorbed around 11,000 hitpoints of damage from ME ALONE.  If he had 6k hitpoints like you believe, that's almost twice his hitpoints.Show me ANY OTHER ITEMS in the game that are on your character 100% of the time that give you a damage ward vs. all damage for nearly twice the amount of your max hitpoints.  Then add that up for every single person attacking you.I can't think of anything.  If you can, please link it.</blockquote><p>Khrul you do realize you're helping out people who say Brigands are overpowered right? You're showing the high amount of damage you can do in a very, very short amount of time. Many believe you shouldn't be able to do the damage you do, and that a Brigand is overpowered.</p><p>There is one simple method to drop a ward that the three of you could have done. Being level 80 with 11k kills and not using it means either these people are right and Brigands are overpowered, and easy to play, or you just havn't learned everything there is in the game. That item would be PUMICE STONE! Three of you using a PUMICE STONE would have made that caster useless.</p>

Echgar
01-15-2008, 05:22 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I highly suggest that everyone read carefully through the first post in this thread. It is very helpful with alot of good advice.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Helpful Thread</a></p></blockquote>Dude, you do sound like a broken record on these forums.If you don't have anything to say on topic, better just don't reply at all.</blockquote><p>Hmm someone's complaining about how something is "overpowered" and needs nerfed. Seems on topic to me. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>The thread holds very useful information and some rather wise insight. </p><p>If you're having a problem with something, rather than ask that it be changed/nerfed/removed, learn how you can adapt and overcome the situation. The class boards are a great place to start. Overall it'll increase your skill as a player.</p></blockquote>While this linked thread may be helpful, it is also stickied and there is no need to go posting a link to it in so many threads.  The information in the thread linked will not stop some of these discussions from beginning and while I agree some of them are sometimes a bit over the top, if one does not have something constructive to add to a discussion it is better to not bother participating in the thread at all.EverQuest II players, PvP players in particular are passionate and this is not a bad thing at all.  I do urge everyone that chooses to participate in discussions here, however, to check some of your emotion and desire to quickly beat others that disagree with you into submission.  There are some great discussions here with valuable insights that the developers do appreciate, but the bickering back and forth that so often accompanies these threads just adds a ton of noise.  Avoid making it personal, take an educational approach (as opposed to confrontational) with those you disagree with, and try to include data where possible so the developers can reproduce the issue and see what you're seeing.  Save the PvP for in-game. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Kru
01-15-2008, 10:52 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I urge you to read it, and then come back with informed replies.  You indicate I'm complaining I can't kill someone in 5 seconds or less?  Wrong...it wasn't just me fighting this Warlock, there were 3 of us total.  And it wasn't 5 seconds, or even 60 seconds.  We're talking close to 180 seconds of combat, 3v1, without him dying.  There's a huge difference.</blockquote><p>This is absolute rubbish.  If any of you knew where any of your buttons are that controlls your toon, this situation is impossible.</p><p> Manashiled lasts 30 seconds with a 90 second cooldown. Figure the mage has 6k hitpoints.  The most he could possibly stoneskin is 1/2 of the attacks, but that is also not possible since they do not stack.  You're saying that during a 90 second period of no manashield, the 3 of you could not inflict at least 12k in damage (worst case scenario.)?  That's like, 44 dps per person.  You're full of [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p></blockquote>Believe it my friend, it happened.  I wouldn't be posting here if it hadn't.  That's what happens when you have stoneskin items absorbing nearly 30,000 damage.If you're having a hard time wrapping your mind around this one, let me put it to you in simpler terms.  He absorbed around 11,000 hitpoints of damage from ME ALONE.  If he had 6k hitpoints like you believe, that's almost twice his hitpoints.Show me ANY OTHER ITEMS in the game that are on your character 100% of the time that give you a damage ward vs. all damage for nearly twice the amount of your max hitpoints.  Then add that up for every single person attacking you.I can't think of anything.  If you can, please link it.</blockquote><p>Khrul you do realize you're helping out people who say Brigands are overpowered right? You're showing the high amount of damage you can do in a very, very short amount of time. Many believe you shouldn't be able to do the damage you do, and that a Brigand is overpowered.</p><p>There is one simple method to drop a ward that the three of you could have done. Being level 80 with 11k kills and not using it means either these people are right and Brigands are overpowered, and easy to play, or you just havn't learned everything there is in the game. That item would be PUMICE STONE! Three of you using a PUMICE STONE would have made that caster useless.</p></blockquote>I likely knew about the pumice stone before you even knew what EQ2 PVP was.  But in all seriousness, please re-read my thread and stay on topic.  We're talking about the dispersion proc, NOT manashield.  Admittedly, manashield contributes to the problem, but the main issue at hand is an overpowered proc on an item that needs to be looked at.I'm not trying to turn this into an argument about manashield, that was never my intention.

Dh
01-15-2008, 10:59 PM
Please list all of the stoneskin items and where they come from so we can all investigate these items further.

Kru
01-15-2008, 11:08 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please list all of the stoneskin items and where they come from so we can all investigate these items further.</blockquote>I'll kindly ask you to read the entire original thread on EQ2 Flames before asking this question again.  Maybe you will answer your own question <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sightless
01-15-2008, 11:42 PM
<p>Kruhl</p><p>That's just it.. Pumice Stone removes the stoneskin "buff". If three of you would have timed your Pumice Stone uses one second after the other, that sorceror would be dead in three seconds. What probably happened is you thought your damage lone was sufficient enough, and paid no attention to anything else. Even one use of Pumice Stone probably would have caused the sorceror to die.</p>

Psych
01-16-2008, 01:37 AM
Kruhl i went and read that entire thread you link in your OP....I decided that 2 bad screenshots are not enough information.I think the devs will agree with me because they already nerfed these items once very recently.I know you will want a reason so here goes...Lets say you are fighting a mage class using these items and that means that he is going to negate literally 35-55 percent of your melee attacks all the while gaining back mana for the damage you deal.Thats a big deal right? Now lets assume it isnt a sorcerer. Now its nothing but an extra 4 seconds. Even less considerable than mana shield alone.Its very obvious what you have an issue with and it isnt these items. But you must realize ofcourse that getting sorcerers most powerful AA ability and indeed the most powerful AA amongst all the mage classes and easily among the top 10 most powerful single abilities in the game....well the chance of you getting that changed are very slim compared to getting a few items/proc changed.I'm completely against these items getting nerfed or changed in any way because the truth is that an illusionist with all of them doesnt last much longer. I know you say that the warlock you fought tanked you guys for much more than 30 seconds but even assuming he had all the stoneskin procs and a 60% proc chance it would take an incredible amount of luck for just those procs to prevent his life from easily being depleted by any 3 other classes especially an opposing spell caster as I'm assuming this stoneskin only works for melee?Go ahead and do the math. Take illusionist HP at level 80 and then take your attacks...add them up in the order you would use them until you reach around the amount of damage total that it would take to kill the average illusionist. Then randomly strike out 35 to 55 percent of them...then subtract those and keep going until you reach that average health again.  Whats that? Subtracting 35-55 percent of your attacks randomly from the fight just makes it last 6 seconds longer? Exactly.See pal your problem is mana shield. and it isnt getting changed either.The wizard is the single most played tier8 class on the PVP server I play. Maybe the bots are onto something...Or maybe players realize it too...and thats why warlocks are 4th most popular with only the 2 druids and wizzys above it.Get used to this. Somebody has to be number one. Oh, and I dont play a sorc so there isnt any bias here. I just think your completely wrong and purposely orchestrating a attempt at rally a nerf mob for your own personal desires.

Kru
01-16-2008, 04:08 AM
<cite>Psych wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kruhl i went and read that entire thread you link in your OP....I decided that 2 bad screenshots are not enough information.I think the devs will agree with me because they already nerfed these items once very recently.I know you will want a reason so here goes...Lets say you are fighting a mage class using these items and that means that he is going to negate literally 35-55 percent of your melee attacks all the while gaining back mana for the damage you deal.Thats a big deal right? Now lets assume it isnt a sorcerer. Now its nothing but an extra 4 seconds. Even less considerable than mana shield alone.Its very obvious what you have an issue with and it isnt these items. But you must realize ofcourse that getting sorcerers most powerful AA ability and indeed the most powerful AA amongst all the mage classes and easily among the top 10 most powerful single abilities in the game....well the chance of you getting that changed are very slim compared to getting a few items/proc changed.I'm completely against these items getting nerfed or changed in any way because the truth is that an illusionist with all of them doesnt last much longer. I know you say that the warlock you fought tanked you guys for much more than 30 seconds but even assuming he had all the stoneskin procs and a 60% proc chance it would take an incredible amount of luck for just those procs to prevent his life from easily being depleted by any 3 other classes especially an opposing spell caster as I'm assuming this stoneskin only works for melee?Go ahead and do the math. Take illusionist HP at level 80 and then take your attacks...add them up in the order you would use them until you reach around the amount of damage total that it would take to kill the average illusionist. Then randomly strike out 35 to 55 percent of them...then subtract those and keep going until you reach that average health again.  Whats that? Subtracting 35-55 percent of your attacks randomly from the fight just makes it last 6 seconds longer? Exactly.See pal your problem is mana shield. and it isnt getting changed either.The wizard is the single most played tier8 class on the PVP server I play. Maybe the bots are onto something...Or maybe players realize it too...and thats why warlocks are 4th most popular with only the 2 druids and wizzys above it.Get used to this. Somebody has to be number one. Oh, and I dont play a sorc so there isnt any bias here. I just think your completely wrong and purposely orchestrating a attempt at rally a nerf mob for your own personal desires.</blockquote>Well I can tell you your argument right off the bat is based on false premise.  Stoneskin is not just melee based.  It procs on any damage, and will absorb any type of damage, whether it be melee, magic, disease, etc.  The fact is, this Warlock lasted much longer than he should have, and at least half of the problem was the stacked stoneskin items.  I don't really care whether the developers lower the proc rate on stoneskin, or just make it so it's not as effective with manashield, but the situation I'm talking about should never even be possible in the first place.

Kru
01-16-2008, 04:12 AM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Kruhl</p><p>That's just it.. Pumice Stone removes the stoneskin "buff". If three of you would have timed your Pumice Stone uses one second after the other, that sorceror would be dead in three seconds. What probably happened is you thought your damage lone was sufficient enough, and paid no attention to anything else. Even one use of Pumice Stone probably would have caused the sorceror to die.</p></blockquote>This is an absolutely silly notion.  If you were at all familiar with the dispersion proc, you would know that it's impossible to time pumice stone and have it be effective in any way, shape, or form.  Especially with 3 people attacking, and his dispersion proc probably being right around 48%, that means it would have been proccing almost every other hit.  Even assuming everybody stopped attacking him, and we all used pumice stone, how would that have helped in any way vs. the dispersion proc?  Let's say you did debuff the dispersion proc?  So what, in all likelihood, your very next hit on him will proc it again and he'll absorb another entire CA or spell.Maybe you're not very experienced in PVP, but I can tell you this right now.  Pumice stone might work like a charm vs. manashield, but anybody who thinks you should use it to debuff dispersion proc is not very knowledgeable in the mechanics of pvp.

Izzypop
01-16-2008, 07:46 AM
<p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Let me see if I understand this correctly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Brigands are calling for a nerf on Necromancers, Conjurers, Illusionists, and Coercers because clothies are just too rock solid of a tank for them to kill anymore?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Is cloth is the new plate?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Have stoneskin items turned the tables so summoners and enchanters can take the full brunt of a brigand's dps?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">What's that you say? Stoneskin items + Manashield=overpowered?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Maybe the problem isn't the stoneskin items.  I think maybe somewhere on these forums on another thread...someone might have said manashield is overpowered.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">If your debate to nerfherd stoneskin items revolves around sorceres with stoneskin and manashield being too hard to kill your entire arguement is compeletly flawed if you can still tear up a Necromancer or Conjurer with full stoneskin gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Rippy the Razor says:  Crying about the stoneskin items when trying to pound through mana shield is like crying about lead poisoning after your [Removed for Content] got shot.  At least that's what my cartoon sig would say if he wasn't a Conjurer who got dropped in 3 seconds by a brigand even with all his stoneskin items.</span></p>

Siphar
01-16-2008, 08:01 AM
<p>I agree with the people that say it's only the wizards and warlocks with Manashield.. that are OP with these items.</p><p>The procs even regenerate the manashield which is wrong imo.</p><p>The other clothies need love and these items help a ton. MS mages on the other hand already have good defence and do not need the same proc or number of dispersion items that are available to the other mages if ANY!</p>

Sightless
01-16-2008, 11:53 AM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Kruhl</p><p>That's just it.. Pumice Stone removes the stoneskin "buff". If three of you would have timed your Pumice Stone uses one second after the other, that sorceror would be dead in three seconds. What probably happened is you thought your damage lone was sufficient enough, and paid no attention to anything else. Even one use of Pumice Stone probably would have caused the sorceror to die.</p></blockquote>This is an absolutely silly notion.  If you were at all familiar with the dispersion proc, you would know that it's impossible to time pumice stone and have it be effective in any way, shape, or form.  Especially with 3 people attacking, and his dispersion proc probably being right around 48%, that means it would have been proccing almost every other hit.  Even assuming everybody stopped attacking him, and we all used pumice stone, how would that have helped in any way vs. the dispersion proc?  Let's say you did debuff the dispersion proc?  So what, in all likelihood, your very next hit on him will proc it again and he'll absorb another entire CA or spell.Maybe you're not very experienced in PVP, but I can tell you this right now.  Pumice stone might work like a charm vs. manashield, but anybody who thinks you should use it to debuff dispersion proc is not very knowledgeable in the mechanics of pvp.</blockquote><p>lol.. Getting rid of Manashield with Pumice Stone, or countering it makes this dispersion proc work no better, or worse than on other cloth casters. If you had used Pumice stone, and striped Dispersion once, your next few swings could have done as much as 4k or more damage to him. But I'll be more reasonable than you, and say you do 2k damage. There are three of you, that's 6k damage right there, or 4k damage if one of you trigger dispersion. THAT'S JUST ONE USE OF PUMICE STONE! Rinse, repeat.</p><p>I'm almost betting you put thugs up on him, all three of you which hit for minimal damage, but swing often. That alone probably did you in.</p>

Quinath
01-16-2008, 12:25 PM
<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Let me see if I understand this correctly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Brigands are calling for a nerf on Necromancers, Conjurers, Illusionists, and Coercers because clothies are just too rock solid of a tank for them to kill anymore?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Is cloth is the new plate?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Have stoneskin items turned the tables so summoners and enchanters can take the full brunt of a brigand's dps?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">What's that you say? Stoneskin items + Manashield=overpowered?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Maybe the problem isn't the stoneskin items.  I think maybe somewhere on these forums on another thread...someone might have said manashield is overpowered.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">If your debate to nerfherd stoneskin items revolves around sorceres with stoneskin and manashield being too hard to kill your entire arguement is compeletly flawed if you can still tear up a Necromancer or Conjurer with full stoneskin gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Rippy the Razor says:  Crying about the stoneskin items when trying to pound through mana shield is like crying about lead poisoning after your [I cannot control my vocabulary] got shot.  At least that's what my cartoon sig would say if he wasn't a Conjurer who got dropped in 3 seconds by a brigand even with all his stoneskin items.</span></p></blockquote>For anyone just tuning into this thread, this is the most accurate summary of what is being discussed here.

Dh
01-16-2008, 02:16 PM
<p>Anyone just tuning in: A BRIGAND is saying it took him THREE MINUTES for him and 2 other people to kill a warlock. FACT- Manashield only last 30 seconds. Manashield is not the problem... there is no problem because this just cannot happen. This is completely untrue. It just doesn't add up.</p><p>BTW:</p><p>3 pumice stones on a Warlock = guaranteed removal of EVERY buff that warlock had up including manashield/focused casting. The warlock is stuck back in the stone age casting every spell 3-5 seconds and getting resisted 80% of the time.</p><p>3 pumice stones on Brigand = brigand that still has his offense stance that procs an interrupt 5.9 times per minute and all 3 poisons up. Brigand can still cast 5 times faster than the warlock while moving and will hit every time.</p>

Dh
01-16-2008, 02:56 PM
Propagation clearly states it DOES NOT affect trigger chances on equiped items. Warlock's DO NOT get increased proc chance on these items.

Psych
01-16-2008, 03:36 PM
Mm, cool! It works on every attack not just melee.Doesnt change the fact that clothies are the only ones getting a real return from it. My enchanter lasts 4 spells against a wizard so its not a big deal if it took him 6 or 7 or even 8 spells imo.Also, yeah to the people who are pointing out how its all a lie...I know...I'm just trying to show how even as a lie the theory that these items need changed is total poppycockery.We all know a 45% chance to block an attack wouldnt even let my paladin going all out on heals/wards last 3 minutes against a brig and any 2 other classes even with 45% stoneskin proc ontop of his already moderate tanking ability.Whatever happend if a warlock lasted 3 minutes against you...well ok, once I jumped from a cliff and should have died taking hundreds of thousands of damage...but I didnt...I kinda jumped right at the end of the fall and somethin happend and it didnt deal any damage...My point is just that sometimes stuff happens that shouldnt. Heck recently that whole shared bank bug tossed a bunch of my stuff onto a level 1 toon I created just to look at that classes AA and then deleted...so the items it tossed on the toon are deleted and I dont know if I'll ever get them back (trying to tho /petitioning and whatnnot) but again I am just pointing out that there really are only 2 options here...A) You are completely fabricating most of this story.B) You and your 2 friends were the unfortunate witnesses of a sploit/bug.I know you will argue with both of those options but it doesnt really matter because as you can see most already just dissagree with you on the grounds that your asking for a overall mage item nerf (a ridiculous request as anyone with pvp experience knows 4 of them are the easiest tokens around) and you play a brig. A class thats agreed upon as a favorite amongst players requiring very little skill if any at all to play.I honestly feel I am being incredibly kind just giving you the benefit of the doubt in suggesting it could have been a rare bug/sploit. Especially since most others clearly arent entertaining that possibility and are disregarding your claim outright.I didnt know that the stoneskin proc blocked spells as well...your knowledge of the game in that area surpasses my own. I think perhaps though that it will take a lot more than just knowing more than me about stoneskin to convince all these other people and instead of responding to random posts here 1 by 1 (sometimes with 2 posts in a row? dude just read all at once or open the thread in a seperate window or something) you should try duplicating this event in game because as it stands I've heard not a single claim as extravagant as your own.To be specific, I'd like to see any mage class tank even a lone brig of equal level and equipment for 3 minutes.Please, do frap.

Kru
01-17-2008, 06:50 AM
Yes, everything I said here was a complete lie.  I fabricated screenshots and then paid Become to agree with me, so it would appear that I had legitimacy in my claims on the dispersion proc items.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sorffats
01-18-2008, 05:13 AM
<cite>Heleptra wrote:</cite><blockquote>Same time take a way the swasys long range,</blockquote>Can I get an "AMEN"?!

Notsovilepriest
01-18-2008, 05:49 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Heleptra wrote:</cite><blockquote>Same time take a way the swasys long range,</blockquote>Can I get an "AMEN"?!</blockquote>Don't you get a teleport that negates the range anyways? /boggle

sprogn
01-18-2008, 08:35 AM
<p>The irony of this, finally some items are given to mages to let them not have a 5s death to all scouts, and a Brigand is here screaming nerf because of it!</p><p>I try and avoid L2P statements, but honestly, this one takes the biscuit.  3 minutes to kill a warlock?  I've spent 15 minutes CHASING running brigands around who don't want to stay and die.  Usually though they just run till they break combat then evac or safehouse.</p><p>Honestly, quit the crying and use some imagination rather than coming here and whining like a baby who threw his rattle out the pram.  If you're recharging his power when manashield is up due to dispersion items - then stop hitting him!  Duh!  Move out of range of autoattack and just rely on BIG damage CA's that won't proc it all the time.  Mental breach him down to no power.</p><p>There's a ton of ways to beat this, but rather than think about it, you come here screaming nerf.  All this from a class that can take any front end dps, safehouse to out of range, regen back up, then come in when your enemies attacks are all down....  Oh and if it goes wrong, just run for 30s and evac...</p><p>Cry more tbh...</p>

GrignakOw
01-18-2008, 09:25 AM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, everything I said here was a complete lie.  I fabricated screenshots and then paid Become to agree with me, so it would appear that I had legitimacy in my claims on the dispersion proc items.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>The Dispersion procs are fine I just fought you in Fens a lil over an hour ago and i have the shoulders,bracers and belt and it never went off once but you did happen to resist a few of my spells before you killed me.And another thing there all of what maybe 20 mages that hardcore pvp compared to how many scouts?Asking for Dispersion on mage gear to be nerfed is rediculous and you know it.

LionWilled
01-18-2008, 11:07 AM
One half [Removed for Content] screenshot of one fight against one person and you consider it cut and dried? Maybe I'm missing it but do you even list what classes were the other two people in your group? Trying to keep it as simple as possible to lend veracity to your claims?Are you the only person who knows about EQ2 Flames and this forum?Why aren't there alot more people going crazy?If I were to take everything you said at face value I'd be inclined to agree with you, but your evidence is lacking.What are they going to do, make it so only Illusionist,Coercer,Necromancer,Conjuror can equip it? You know how many PVE Wiz/Lock players will be furious?This isn't WoW, this game isn't supposed to have a large amount of focus on pvp, which is evidenced by how unbalanced it is. PVE in this game should NEVER suffer to try an d make PVP balanced. If you are so concerned about balance, why don't I see your name more often on posts like this? You aren't that righteous.  No, you post because this is something that affects you, and apparently not too many other people care, as evidenced by the responses to this post and the one on EQ2 flames.These items are easy enough to get, and the expansion has been out more than long enough, why is there not more of an outcry? Not enough Sorcs at high end pvp (how is it that bad then)? I doubt that many people will want to eat dirt like an earthworm for 72 levels to get a shot at glory with these items at high end, not enough to permanently explode the Sorc/Mage population.If it were possible, I think that people would agree to it being fair if the devs made the effect not happen when Manashield was up, that is fair, but I doubt SOE will take the time to do it.One person with half [Removed for Content] evidence is not sufficient of an inquisition to get this nerfed, maybe in the long run, but not now I don't think.

LionWilled
01-18-2008, 11:08 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, everything I said here was a complete lie.  I fabricated screenshots and then paid Become to agree with me, so it would appear that I had legitimacy in my claims on the dispersion proc items.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>The Dispersion procs are fine I just fought you in Fens a lil over an hour ago and i have the shoulders,bracers and belt and it never went off once but you did happen to resist a few of my spells before you killed me.And another thing there all of what maybe 20 mages that hardcore pvp compared to how many scouts?Asking for Dispersion on mage gear to be nerfed is rediculous and you know it.</blockquote>If this is indeed true......Think about it, he claims 3 people couldn't kill a Warlock for 3 minutes, and yet he alone killed this guy?If this is true it is very revealing.

Psych
01-18-2008, 11:16 AM
You didnt seem to entertain my other suggestion....that your the victims of a sick twist of fate, a previously unheard of rare happening, a 79 trillion to one chance where some bug made what you claim happend actually happen.That or yes your making it all up.No no, dont sarcastically joke. These are the only 2 options. We all know that what you claim is not only impossible currently in game according to all working mechanics but also just theoretically unlikely to a degree that its laughable to consider. A joke infact. Even if he had 50% stoneskin chance he would never have survived more than 20 seconds without manashield up.Its honestly no different from anyone else claiming that one of their procs fired off a ridiculously larger number of times than they normally do. Your weapon proc thats supposed to fire 1.8 times a minute going off on every single blow would be great but it just doesnt happen with weapon procs or any other proc.I mean this is as if you claimed someones mastercrafted armors heal over time proc was set off each and every time you struck them. Thats why I say its laughable. This is something I would jokingly talk about knowing I'll win the lottery first.you claim he took how much total DPS while you 3 trashed on him? 30k? Even assuming 20k of that was after manashield wore off your telling me stoneshield blocked 20,000 dps worth of attacks and not even 1 warlocks worth of HP made it through? Hmm...actually lets do some math here because even with a stoneskin chance of 60% I'm willing to bet that 90 seconds of auto attack damage from 3 classes can deal more than 200% of a mages HP bar at level 80.Now add actual use of combat arts and spells? Ok, now they can easily kill the mage 10 times. Yes, 3 scouts can kill a mage in 9 seconds without manshield no problem. So, now were assuming that this mages stoneskin procs went off enough to block all that damage for 90 seconds+ and blocked enough of the high damage CA's (the ones that tear off a 5th or 4th of a mages bar all at once) and still even somehow blocked the low damage plain old auto attacks enough to not die?Whats you auto attack damage and attack speed? I also want the same 2 numbers for your friends because I think these numbers can settle the whole argument. I mean we can simply add up what your auto attack dps would have been for the whole fight then take the stoneskin items, add up the MAX % of stoneskin they can give a mage...and we simply subtract that exact % of auto attacks from the entire list. If the math doesnt even come remotely close then END OF STORY.So, if you would kindly please supply the facts...your auto attack damage and attack speed please....we can just use yours and multiply it by 3 if your friends cant be bothered. Then please list the exact % stoneskin chance of each stoneskin item.If you refuse to do this in an attempt to keep yourself from being proven wrong I can assure you it wont be too difficult to get a level 80 swashes auto attack damage and use it for the math. I can just ask other players for the numbers on the stoneskin items. I ask you because I dont want to hear any ifs, ands, or butts when the facts are laid out.So, please get those up here and I'll do the math for ya...I has a calculator. =/

zorros
01-18-2008, 11:27 AM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I urge anybody interested in PVP balance to read the following thread at EQ2 Flames.  At the very least, if we can't convince the developers that this is overpowered and needs changing, than maybe we can get enough transparency on the issue, that every mage in the game starts stacking 4 pieces of stoneskin gear and we start seeing mages kill everybody.  At that point, it would be harder to ignore the extreme overpowered nature of stacking 4 stoneskin items, and then combining manashield on top of that.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-player-issues/18366-overpowered-stoneskin-needs-changing-badly.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-...ging-badly.html</a></blockquote>I would like to see stoneskin stay ingame but i would however like safehouse removed. Just having lame people hanging around posts using no skill and safehouse is way overpowered.

Psych
01-18-2008, 08:55 PM
Wow shocking, I suggest a simple way to end all this with a little math and all of a sudden the OP isnt posting anymore! I mean just not long ago he was tossing a response to every single negative suggestion here! Golly Gosh! Guess he is just busy!Ok, in that case I'm just gonna make an assumption. Hope I'm class to actual PVP damage.I'm gonna assume a brig of the OPs level attacks for 500 damage per hit in PVP on average and the he swings once every 5 seconds. I realize dual wielding thats kinda silly but this cant be far from the actual thing for any class so I think its a safe number to use.So, each of them attacking for 500 damage every 5 seconds for 90 seconds. I believe the OP said that the warlock tanked for 3 minutes but I am using 90 seconds because I want to only use 90 seconds so there.Ok, at 1 swing every 5 seconds for 3 players over 90 seconds.From this we get a total of 54 attacks. thats 18 attacks from each attacker.With each attack dealing 500 damage 54 attacks = a whopping 27,000 damage!But this opponent has stoneskin items! I'm gonna assume his stoneskin chance is 60% just for fun.Ok, so we need to subtract 60% of the attacks alltogether as odds say they will be blocked by the stoneskin completely. So starting with 54 attacks we now get roughly 22 attacks that are going to make it through the stoneskins 60% chance to absorb them.Now we have only 22 attacks getting through for 500 damage each. 500x22=11,000 damage.More than enough to kill a level 80 warlock I think.If anyone has an issue with my numbers being off or whatever go ahead and state the problem. Give me the real EXACT numbers and I'll plug them in. Otherwise give me better estimates for the numbers? My point is just that there is no way possible that what the OP says happend actually did indeed happen the way he says it did.Heck I only did 90 seconds, the OP claims what, 3 minutes? Manashield lasts for 30 seconds correct? and if the recast is less than 2 minutes 30 seconds then no other time during the 3 minutes could he have used it again. In that case thats 150 seconds!I think that raises us up to 30 attacks from each member of the group each for 500 damage. Thats 45,000 damage before stoneskin. Lets see how much it is after applying the 60% stoneskin chance.Alright we still have 36 attacks getting through the stoneskin proc at 60% chance. So whats 36x500?18,000 damage.Much more than any warlock can take without manashield.I know the OP is very serious in what he says...all I'm saying is he is mistaken. What he claims could not have happend. He thinks he saw bigfoot, it was a kid in a monkey costume.

MaNiaGG84
01-19-2008, 10:41 PM
<p>Yeah its totally fked up tbh</p>

xfbishop
01-21-2008, 08:40 PM
<cite>Izzypop wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Let me see if I understand this correctly.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Brigands are calling for a nerf on Necromancers, Conjurers, Illusionists, and Coercers because clothies are just too rock solid of a tank for them to kill anymore?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Is cloth is the new plate?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Have stoneskin items turned the tables so summoners and enchanters can take the full brunt of a brigand's dps?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">What's that you say? Stoneskin items + Manashield=overpowered?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Maybe the problem isn't the stoneskin items.  I think maybe somewhere on these forums on another thread...someone might have said manashield is overpowered.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">If your debate to nerfherd stoneskin items revolves around sorceres with stoneskin and manashield being too hard to kill your entire arguement is compeletly flawed if you can still tear up a Necromancer or Conjurer with full stoneskin gear.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Rippy the Razor says:  Crying about the stoneskin items when trying to pound through mana shield is like crying about lead poisoning after your [I cannot control my vocabulary] got shot.  At least that's what my cartoon sig would say if he wasn't a Conjurer who got dropped in 3 seconds by a brigand even with all his stoneskin items.</span></p></blockquote><p>qfe</p><p> well written and truth</p>

xfbishop
01-21-2008, 08:44 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Propagation clearly states it DOES NOT affect trigger chances on equiped items. Warlock's DO NOT get increased proc chance on these items.</blockquote><p>it can say it all it wants, but when i link the dispersion gear from my illusionist to my warlock the 10% procs clearly say 14, + add the book proc from jw and [I cannot control my vocabulary] can get outta hand.</p><p> as an illusionist i disagree that this proc is overpowered in any way, as a warlock however, these procs are insane, especially when you let nullmail trip before hittin ms you're dodge/stoneskin rate is rediculous.</p><p> at this point it seems to me that they cannot fix resists without making sorcerers obscenely overpowered so the rest of the mage classes have to live as token vendors because sorcerers get a op aa line, something is out of line and needs to be fixed, but imo it isnt the stoneskin procs.</p>

Dh
01-21-2008, 11:01 PM
<cite>xfbishop wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Propagation clearly states it DOES NOT affect trigger chances on equiped items. Warlock's DO NOT get increased proc chance on these items.</blockquote><p>it can say it all it wants, but when i link the dispersion gear from my illusionist to my warlock the 10% procs clearly say 14, + add the book proc from jw and [I cannot control my vocabulary] can get outta hand.</p><p> as an illusionist i disagree that this proc is overpowered in any way, as a warlock however, these procs are insane, especially when you let nullmail trip before hittin ms you're dodge/stoneskin rate is rediculous.</p><p> at this point it seems to me that they cannot fix resists without making sorcerers obscenely overpowered so the rest of the mage classes have to live as token vendors because sorcerers get a op aa line, something is out of line and needs to be fixed, but imo it isnt the stoneskin procs.</p></blockquote><p>It changes all of the descriptions because sony was lazy. The description is not coded in the game code that makes it work. </p><p>Saying sorcerers landing every spell is not overpowered. Brigands hit everytime and kill people in 2 seconds. How would a wizard casting a 4k nuke for 5 seconds that lands everytime with a chance of getting interrupted be overpowered? Think about it. Melee still > casters that land spells everytime.</p>

BWLeeEllison
01-22-2008, 12:51 AM
<p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Just to be sure we don't run into the OP's standard "You obviously didn't read..." cut off notice on the validity of any reply...I read.  Good?  Okay...  My response.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Survivability.  Scouts have evac, track, and stealth.  Priest classes have their heals/wards.  Tanks have high mit and hp.  DO NOT strip caster classes of their one bit of survivability high end.  I recently did a post on another thread quoting the statistics for the top 100 PvP KvD ratio and top 100 PvP Most Kills for those who play on Nagafen, and casters are severely pinched for survivability.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">I have run into you several times on Nagafen, Kruhl.  You got me one time, and one time only, and that was near a respawn.  You are 80 and can beat me down any time you catch me flat footed.  I know you.  I am ready for you.  I know where you patrol for free tokens, and it is where I am patrolling for my Achievement Points.  I keep an eye out so the umpteen times I have run into you, aside from that one time, I got away.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">My question to you is this...What happened?  Did you have happen to you what happens to mages all the time, except in reverse?  Mages run into scouts and get owned all the time, and then come crying to the boards about nerfing scout abilities.  Did you run into a couple of mages that actually took the cries of L2P to heart and they did to you what you have been doing to them?</span></b></p><p align="center"><b><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">GOOD!</span></b></p><p align="left"><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Maybe now mages will lighten up and I can spend more time playing and less time ensuring my class/archetype is defended vociferously and viciously.  I feel bad for you, I really do.  But Nobody Needs Nerfed.  Rule #3</span></b></p>

Kru
01-25-2008, 06:39 AM
I think the screenshot speaks for itself.And..rule #3 is completely bogus.  I've already posted about this on numerous occasions, but the only way for #3 to be true is if no classes ever got nerfed in EQ2.  As we all know, that's not true, so rule #3 is automatically false.  In addition, you're not even using it in the right context!  I'm not asking for any classes to get nerfed, I'm asking for an item that happens to be overpowered in PVP to be nerfed.  Get it right.A shame you had to end such a thoughtful post with a comment that has been proven to be patently false, not to mention completely out of context.

Sightless
01-25-2008, 07:29 AM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the screenshot speaks for itself.And..rule #3 is completely bogus.  I've already posted about this on numerous occasions, but the only way for #3 to be true is if no classes ever got nerfed in EQ2.  As we all know, that's not true, so rule #3 is automatically false.  In addition, you're not even using it in the right context!  I'm not asking for any classes to get nerfed, I'm asking for an item that happens to be overpowered in PVP to be nerfed.  Get it right.A shame you had to end such a thoughtful post with a comment that has been proven to be patently false, not to mention completely out of context.</blockquote><p>Fought a Brigand today, he was green con. Took us nearly 120 seconds to kill him, maybe longer.. I'll have to look at the parse. He had so much healing and small ward proc's, our fast melee hits were not cutting it. Wasn't until a wizard flew in did we actually kill him.</p><p>Can we say, hmmm? How much balance are you looking for?</p>

Unfeter
01-25-2008, 07:47 AM
<p>I disagree with dumbing down the stoneskin items.  In the past couple of days I have aquired 2 of said items.  The belt and the sebilis faction piece.  I encountered a bruiser who normally would take 4 seconds to kill this little old level 80 conjuror.  The items balanced things out and we had a great fight that lasted nearly a minute.  He still killed me, but by god, he had to earn that kill and was left with around about 5 % health to prove he had been in a good pvp fight.  I think he was impressed.  He /bowed me and /thanked me, and I too was feeling good for a great fight.</p><p>The items for me have balanced pvp fights considerably in alot of situations.  I feel the people who are moaning about them are upset because they are missing their 2 second ganks or one shot wonders.  Now they are finding that when they gank someone with these items and IF they proc, they have to work for their fame.</p>

Elephanton
01-25-2008, 02:37 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I disagree with dumbing down the stoneskin items.  In the past couple of days I have aquired 2 of said items.  The belt and the sebilis faction piece.  I encountered a bruiser who normally would take 4 seconds to kill this little old level 80 conjuror.  The items balanced things out and we had a great fight that lasted nearly a minute.  He still killed me, but by god, he had to earn that kill and was left with around about 5 % health to prove he had been in a good pvp fight.  I think he was impressed.  He /bowed me and /thanked me, and I too was feeling good for a great fight.</p><p>The items for me have balanced pvp fights considerably in alot of situations.  I feel the people who are moaning about them are upset because they are missing their 2 second ganks or one shot wonders.  Now they are finding that when they gank someone with these items and IF they proc, they have to work for their fame.</p></blockquote><span style="font-size: small;">This is great post, and you are absolutely right.Currently, stoneskin items are nicely balanced in this game and they DO NOT need to be nerfed.What needs to be nerfed, is stoneskins+manashield combo, now this is whole other story, this is insane... typical sorc with manashield and stoneskin items gets about 50K HP against melee, maaan this is 5 times more than guardian has... but hey, unlike guardian, they also have T1 DPS and decent CC spells... and all this together, is a bit too much.</span>

Sightless
01-25-2008, 04:39 PM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I disagree with dumbing down the stoneskin items.  In the past couple of days I have aquired 2 of said items.  The belt and the sebilis faction piece.  I encountered a bruiser who normally would take 4 seconds to kill this little old level 80 conjuror.  The items balanced things out and we had a great fight that lasted nearly a minute.  He still killed me, but by god, he had to earn that kill and was left with around about 5 % health to prove he had been in a good pvp fight.  I think he was impressed.  He /bowed me and /thanked me, and I too was feeling good for a great fight.</p><p>The items for me have balanced pvp fights considerably in alot of situations.  I feel the people who are moaning about them are upset because they are missing their 2 second ganks or one shot wonders.  Now they are finding that when they gank someone with these items and IF they proc, they have to work for their fame.</p></blockquote><span style="font-size: small;">This is great post, and you are absolutely right.Currently, stoneskin items are nicely balanced in this game and they DO NOT need to be nerfed.What needs to be nerfed, is stoneskins+manashield combo, now this is whole other story, this is insane... typical sorc with manashield and stoneskin items gets about 50K HP against melee, maaan this is 5 times more than guardian has... but hey, unlike guardian, they also have T1 DPS and decent CC spells... and all this together, is a bit too much.</span></blockquote>No it doesn't need any nerfs. If a sorceror is forced to pop manashield, they're going to be doing much less damage. It's a trade off.

Elephanton
01-25-2008, 07:15 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote>No it doesn't need any nerfs. If a sorceror is forced to pop manashield, they're going to be doing much less damage. It's a trade off.</blockquote>Sorry, but your post does not make any sense at all.Having manashield up does not affect damage anyhow, there are no tradeoffs of having it up.

bladechef
01-25-2008, 11:18 PM
<p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: times new roman,times;">While we're getting rid or the things that we don't like I want to add a few things to the list:</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Safehouse</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- All Evacs</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Outright Resists</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Rogue Auto Attcks</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Titles</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Permanent Immunity</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Stacked Poisons in PvP</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">-the Word 'Avoidance' from the persona window of mages.  It is a pipe dream and doesn't exist in PvP anyway</span></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">These are just a few of the things I would like to see taken away from Kruhl and the other swash/brig easymodes out there.  The problem is this:  Were talking about permamnent buffs here.  Things you can't strip away.  Don't compare apples to oranges or any other lame sidestep.  The fact remains that with said items a mage 'MIGHT' stand a chance against the copious  amounts of dmg that was handed to scouts this expansion.  If some pussdog decided to actually engage in a fight (instead of using that precious safehouse) and then lost to a mage who stood through the alpha attack... I have no sympathy.  Buck up and L2P, nubs.  Either that or stop crying defenses on every thread that even comes close to mentioning a word that looks like 'scout'.  </span></b></p>

BWLeeEllison
01-26-2008, 05:03 AM
<cite>bladechef wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: times new roman,times;">While we're getting rid or the things that we don't like I want to add a few things to the list:</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Safehouse</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- All Evacs</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Outright Resists</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Rogue Auto Attcks</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Titles</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Permanent Immunity</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Stacked Poisons in PvP</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">-the Word 'Avoidance' from the persona window of mages.  It is a pipe dream and doesn't exist in PvP anyway</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">These are just a few of the things I would like to see taken away from Kruhl and the other swash/brig easymodes out there.  The problem is this:  Were talking about permamnent buffs here.  Things you can't strip away.  Don't compare apples to oranges or any other lame sidestep.  The fact remains that with said items a mage 'MIGHT' stand a chance against the copious  amounts of dmg that was handed to scouts this expansion.  If some pussdog decided to actually engage in a fight (instead of using that precious safehouse) and then lost to a mage who stood through the alpha attack... I have no sympathy.  Buck up and L2P, nubs.  Either that or stop crying defenses on every thread that even comes close to mentioning a word that looks like 'scout'.  </span></b></p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I seriously LOL'd at this because a scene from The Two Towers popped into my head when I read this.  Someone else brought this up when a similar list was posted elsewhere about getting rid of stuff.  It is the scene where the orcs are arguing about killing Merry and Pippin and are told in no uncertain terms to bugger off.  And the one orc chimes in, "What about their legs?  They don't need those...".  You forgot to add "Remove their legs" to your list.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">I keep saying it, there are NO EASY MODES.  Anyone with have a brain can spend some time studying their abilities, and possbily even reading various sources on the net for tactical/strategic suggestions, then formulate potentially crippling macros to simplify combat to the point of turning ANY class into an easy mode.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Simple fact of the matter is the caster classes have a very low threshhold of survivability as I see it, and I do not feel as though the one tool in the game that seems to give them some survivability should have anything done to it.  Bravo if they can take me down with it.  Bravo!</span></b></p>

Quinath
01-26-2008, 05:12 AM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote>No it doesn't need any nerfs. If a sorceror is forced to pop manashield, they're going to be doing much less damage. It's a trade off.</blockquote>Sorry, but your post does not make any sense at all.Having manashield up does not affect damage anyhow, there are no tradeoffs of having it up.</blockquote>I think what he was getting at is a sorcerer is forced to pop manashield when they're being actively targeted... with the lack of cc abilities, that means someone in your face interrupting, knocking back, etc, greatly (and sometimes completely) reducing damage output.

Elephanton
01-26-2008, 08:19 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote>No it doesn't need any nerfs. If a sorceror is forced to pop manashield, they're going to be doing much less damage. It's a trade off.</blockquote>Sorry, but your post does not make any sense at all.Having manashield up does not affect damage anyhow, there are no tradeoffs of having it up.</blockquote>I think what he was getting at is a sorcerer is forced to pop manashield when they're being actively targeted... with the lack of cc abilities, that means someone in your face interrupting, knocking back, etc, greatly (and sometimes completely) reducing damage output. </blockquote>Well, this still does not make sense, because this relates to EVERY mage class out there.Every mage's damage output is reduced with fighter or scout enemy being in melee range.And this damage reduction has nothing to deal with manashield being up.

bladechef
01-26-2008, 08:40 AM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>bladechef wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: times new roman,times;">While we're getting rid or the things that we don't like I want to add a few things to the list:</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Safehouse</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- All Evacs</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Outright Resists</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Rogue Auto Attcks</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Titles</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Permanent Immunity</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">- Stacked Poisons in PvP</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">-the Word 'Avoidance' from the persona window of mages.  It is a pipe dream and doesn't exist in PvP anyway</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">These are just a few of the things I would like to see taken away from Kruhl and the other swash/brig easymodes out there.  The problem is this:  Were talking about permamnent buffs here.  Things you can't strip away.  Don't compare apples to oranges or any other lame sidestep.  The fact remains that with said items a mage 'MIGHT' stand a chance against the copious  amounts of dmg that was handed to scouts this expansion.  If some pussdog decided to actually engage in a fight (instead of using that precious safehouse) and then lost to a mage who stood through the alpha attack... I have no sympathy.  Buck up and L2P, nubs.  Either that or stop crying defenses on every thread that even comes close to mentioning a word that looks like 'scout'.  </span></b></p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I seriously LOL'd at this because a scene from The Two Towers popped into my head when I read this.  Someone else brought this up when a similar list was posted elsewhere about getting rid of stuff.  It is the scene where the orcs are arguing about killing Merry and Pippin and are told in no uncertain terms to bugger off.  And the one orc chimes in, "What about their legs?  They don't need those...".  You forgot to add "Remove their legs" to your list.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">I keep saying it, there are NO EASY MODES.  Anyone with have a brain can spend some time studying their abilities, and possbily even reading various sources on the net for tactical/strategic suggestions, then formulate potentially crippling macros to simplify combat to the point of turning ANY class into an easy mode.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Simple fact of the matter is the caster classes have a very low threshhold of survivability as I see it, and I do not feel as though the one tool in the game that seems to give them some survivability should have anything done to it.  Bravo if they can take me down with it.  Bravo!</span></b></p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: times new roman,times;">I generally like your posts (this one included), but I disagree with that business about the macros etc.  </span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">elaborated:  The OP was made by a brig.  Brig in any hands (obviously some exceptions here) with or without macros can absolutely destroy most cloth classes.  Even with a grave 'LACK' of skill the current PvP mechanics would make it possible for a brig in only treasured gear and in unskilled hands to kill a caster wearing 4 dispersion items.  Much less probable, but still possible.  And there is also to consider that not every mage out there with these items has a wellspring of PvP prowess.  On the flip side of that coin when you put a mage into the hands of a skilled player, give said mage manashield and a 30+% stoneskin not many will be killing this person 1v1.  Some still will.  most will not.  </span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">My above post was mostly sarcasm as I find it endlessly funny what is being said and suggested considering the OP and his... reputation.  5m from a post, shrunken w/ 40% and 50% shrinks, spider illusion on, HaXxeD halfway underground and hovering over the safehouse button while watching track to gank a solo.  I hope a solo Sorcerer killing you in this fashion is what prompted This particular thread.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">That's it</span></b></p>

Pumancat
02-16-2008, 03:26 PM
<p> Where do you get these? I know of the Jillisk faction one, but is this one of them also? - Sash of the Nathsar Tribe. So what's the lowdown? </p><p>What are the names of these items, and where can we get them?</p><p>Tired of being taken out in 5 seconds by OP melee classes.</p><p>Nyarlath - 73 wizard</p><p>Venekor server</p>

Rudwick
02-18-2008, 10:30 AM
Been said many times if you researched just a tad.Sash of the nathsar tribe from any named in Fens.Forest Giant trinket quest in KP. Final Retrieval? think that was quest nameEmbroidered sebilite mantle faction merchant with outer sebilisRuned bracer of dispersion Karnors Castle drop, think was drolvarg foremanHopefully that is close enough for you to find. Can't remember exactly.

Mörk
02-18-2008, 11:23 AM
<p>Anyone know any overpowered items for my mystic?</p><p>I wonder if my class-defining ability to have my slow-casting wards 1-shotted with an autoattack are too much already to allow me any overpowered gear.</p><p>I don't mind having to do some work to get it, like, say as much work as a scout has to do to get Nathsar Shortsword (max 4-5 tours of CoA) or Anaphylaxis (1 tour of Maidens zomg). </p>

Raidyen
02-18-2008, 12:57 PM
<p>You want to call for a nerf on something?  Have them nerf Miracles/Blessing in pvp.</p>

Biaxil
02-18-2008, 05:36 PM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I urge anybody interested in PVP balance to read the following thread at EQ2 Flames.  At the very least, if we can't convince the developers that this is overpowered and needs changing, than maybe we can get enough transparency on the issue, that every mage in the game starts stacking 4 pieces of stoneskin gear and we start seeing mages kill everybody.  At that point, it would be harder to ignore the extreme overpowered nature of stacking 4 stoneskin items, and then combining manashield on top of that.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-player-issues/18366-overpowered-stoneskin-needs-changing-badly.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/player-vs-...ging-badly.html</a></blockquote>Another friendly reminder brought to you by the nerf community.  and another guy on here complained about manashield. lol, thered be no sorcs if they took away MS.