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View Full Version : Why every defensive action used under attack puts in combat, except EVAC?


Elephanton
01-12-2008, 09:53 AM
<p>I can't even summon horse after being attacked without being put in PVP combat.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why EVAC does not do the same thing then? How fair is that?</span></p><p>In my opinion,  EVAC should not work if you are already being attacked by an enemy.Just like every other defensive action out there, casting EVAC in this case should put you in combat and make EVAC not work.If you spot an enemy in advance, and decide to flee before they start hitting you - fine, you can do that.But, if you are already being attacked, sorry, all defensive actions used under attack must put you in combat.</p>

Gimet
01-12-2008, 11:23 AM
<p>I agree, however every scout will simply disagree.</p><p>In fact, if this was implemented it would only make scouts further rely on track. Boo-hoo to them right?</p><p>Track- You see 3 yellows, and decide the odds are against you. Chances are they cannot see you, and even if they did you knew they were coming. Evac BEFORE they hit you. Why can I sit there hitting you, while you just wait to get into yellow life before evac'ing just to rub it it?</p><p>Scouts decide when to fight, and decide for other classes when they get to fight. As a Mage, with the exception of Wizards, we simply have to try our best to run, despite their amazing DPS and snares. If you get hit, you failed at your primary defense, track...and should not be rewarded with a second shot of Evac.</p>

Raidyen
01-12-2008, 12:21 PM
Yeah im really getting tired of the same half dozen or so people posting the same things over and over.  I have said my peice a dozen times, and never been countered on my points.  They just continue to repeat the same talking points over and over.  Man i feel like im watching a political debate on CNN.  Im done with these threads.  The dev's will do what is best for the game in the long run, no matter what is said anyway.

GrignakOw
01-12-2008, 12:25 PM
Sorry but Elephant is right on this,and for the fact scouts have track and can see if there is a group or if it's just a solo player coming.So they will have plenty of time to bail out with evac if they cant handle the situation.

Zimike
01-12-2008, 12:42 PM
<p>I fully agree with the poster on this Topic . EVAC almost seems to sit outside the combat system.  So many Scouts take the cowards way out to keep Fame/Infamy, while cloth and related classes have to take a beating. If you use a call spell when attack.... you get pulled into combat, If you call your horse, you get pulled into combat. Your only option is to run and run fast which last maybe a  couple secs because the Scout with a near 100% chance to land snares, stuns, stifes slows you down and gets the kill.  Since we can run fast and get away and the claim that EVAC is justified, then how come we cannot run away and someone magically gain immunity?</p><p>Tell me this, What classes have the highest ingame PVP Titles? What classes as a whole have the least amount of deaths? Mages? lol ............. Ya I am sure people who play Mages just suck at PVP, that must be the reason right?  </p><p>Here is my deal, you keep your EVAC., but you should not gain immunity at the EVAC point. I'll be ok with this, but truth be told..... you Scouts are a bunch of cowards and are a shame to the PVP system of this game. The only reason you have what you got is because this game was not designed for PVP. You know for a FACT that if this game was built for PVP, you would not be able to use such an ability after being attacked in PVP.</p><p> I am going to head my post with this last message; Please Scouts, help me to understand how this current system of EVAC is fare? Please help me to understand because I have only been playing this game since about RELEASE!!! *edit* you for even thinking of using the "You don't know your class" or "You don't know anything about the Scout class". Save your rants and die in a fire.</p>

Izzypop
01-12-2008, 12:48 PM
<p>Back in the day healers would do nothing but heal when engaged keeping their out of combat health and power regen as they healed until the enemy player ran oop then they would attack them.  That's why all defensive actions put you in combat</p><p>Evac puting players into combat would do nothing short of entirely removing evak from pvp combat.</p><p>This thread is nothing but another remove evak from the game thread.  It's a legit debate, but there is no reason to compare a fixed problem to the evak debate or start a new thread over it.</p>

Zimike
01-12-2008, 12:55 PM
<p>Ok,.... let me get something straight here... I do not want EVAC REMOVED FROM THE GAME!... clear enough? ok now lets be serious... I just want EVAC To ingage them into Combat... it can still EVAC them, but they do not have immunity at the EVAC point.</p><p>Anyone agree? Disagree? Discuss...</p>

Amphibia
01-12-2008, 01:06 PM
Wouldn't it be fun if trying to evac after being hit by a hostile player would result in this message? <img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/runningaway.jpg" alt="" border="0" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

MokiCh
01-12-2008, 01:34 PM
It'd be real awesome if it said that when someone shoots you with an arrow while the rest of his x4 comes stampeding down the hill towards your little duo. Oh wait..

tass
01-12-2008, 01:35 PM
well its not fair. But ur forgetting 1 thing. pvp is meant for scouts. They own you and always will in combat, abilities, and the choice to flash you, tbag your friend and then flip you the bird and they vanish.Make a scout today.

Elephanton
01-12-2008, 02:00 PM
<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wouldn't it be fun if trying to evac after being hit by a hostile player would result in this message? <img src="http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/myrtelolaf/runningaway.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="233" height="188" /><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>That would be awesome...And BTW, talking about RL analogies...I can accept when some assasin turns around the street corner 100 meter away from me, and vanishes there (meaning, when I get there, I don't see him and have no clue whether he went into some shop nearby, or jumped into the sewer system, or took a taxi). EVAC is kind of explainable and justified in this case.What I cannot accept, is when I am beating the crap out of assasin who is lying knocked down on the ground right next to me, and all of a sudden he just... vanishes?Which is why I think scouts should not be able to use EVAC under attack.

Gimet
01-12-2008, 02:31 PM
<p>You guys don't understand...maybe if you scouts would take some time and see the game form a perspective other the Burger King Scout's...you know, Have it your way.....you would understand what we're talking about....</p><p>I am a mage, I run around without track, and without evac. I find a Scout, and I jump that scout. I broke through his 1st defense....Track. Grats to me, now I have to break through his second defensewhich is common to almost all classes....Speed. I'm locked in combat, he's not. He can run far away form me. But I root him. Grats to me again, I broke through his second defense. now it's time for the final defense....which is Evac. I interrupt him the first time....but little do you scouts know interrupting isn't an every 2 second thing like it is for fighters and scouts.</p><p>Where's my pat on the back for finally jumping YOU when I don't have track?</p><p>And why do you get to evac when you fail at having th eultimate PvP resource....knowing what's coming?</p><p>THAT is th eproblem, and this is our SOlution. Rely on track more if you want, because Evac should not be used after you've been hit. Is that so much to ask or are you still wanting to keep your easy mode?</p>

keLston
01-12-2008, 02:42 PM
Two shotting full groups as a mage isn't ezmode? If scouts really are so advantaged, why don't you play one instead of the mage? Why not view it from the scout perspective that has to break through >21000 hp from someone nuking through focused casting? Apologies for making you need to use more than 2 buttons to kill everyone as a mage.I find it pretty humorous in the class specific forums that mages [email protected] for being free kills and yet in the more public ones, it's qqscout this, qqscout that. Perhaps you should visit your class forums to learn how to play from the people who understand their class rather than instantly complaining about anyone that isn't easy for you?All I see in the PvP forums is the ridiculous generalization that everyone who kills you is overpowered regardless of class.

Elephanton
01-12-2008, 02:53 PM
<p>Actually I am ranger (you can easily find hundreds of my posts against various ranger nerfs on these forums /wink), and I hate the evac so much... when some titled scout evacs from me in red health, and then stands in immunity for 15 mins recharging it.Honestly, I don't understand why casting EVAC under attack does not put in combat.When in the exact same situation, Locket of Escape does put you in combat. How it is different???</p>

keLston
01-12-2008, 02:59 PM
And clearly, I was responding to a post directly before my own, funny how threads work that way isn't it?But I can tell you why Locket puts you in combat while evac doesn't. Because Locket provides a class skill to everyone that isn't supposed to have it. Most people call that kind of thing "game balance".Whether you claim to play a ranger or not is irrelevant as in your previous threads, more experienced scouts placed into question your knowledge of the archetype.

Gimet
01-12-2008, 03:01 PM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>Two shotting full groups as a mage isn't ezmode? If scouts really are so advantaged, why don't you play one instead of the mage? Why not view it from the scout perspective that has to break through >21000 hp from someone nuking through focused casting? Apologies for making you need to use more than 2 buttons to kill everyone as a mage.I find it pretty humorous in the class specific forums that mages [email protected] for being free kills and yet in the more public ones, it's qqscout this, qqscout that. Perhaps you should visit your class forums to learn how to play from the people who understand their class rather than instantly complaining about anyone that isn't easy for you?All I see in the PvP forums is the ridiculous generalization that everyone who kills you is overpowered regardless of class.</blockquote><p>Scouts ARE easy kills if they DECIDE to stay and fight after we get the jump. And I'll think your find your views quite wrong being that EVERYONE complains about Scouts, and the mages of which you speak are Sorcerers. =)</p><p>DECIDE, a word no other classes can grasp. Scouts do the judging for everyone else.</p><p>And you, being a Scout, should be one of the last people to tell me to L2P my god damned class. Once you begin to play a class that doesn't have choice intesnely, maybe then you can judge how I deal with these things.</p><p>I don't know why you're opposing this idea. We're not aksing to take Evac away form you. You have track, use the [Removed for Content] thing to tell when people are coming after you and Evac. You should not sit there and wet my apetite to kill you and evac as soon as you're in red.</p>

Elephanton
01-12-2008, 03:02 PM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>But I can tell you why Locket puts you in combat while evac doesn't. Because Locket provides a class skill to everyone that isn't supposed to have it. Most people call that kind of thing "game balance".</blockquote>I also mentioned Locket of Escape because I am 100% percent sure than soon some smart [Removed for Content] comes here just to say that "everyone can have evac, what's your problem".

Elephanton
01-12-2008, 03:11 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't know why you're opposing this idea. We're not aksing to take Evac away form you. You have track, use the [I cannot control my vocabulary] thing to tell when people are coming after you and Evac. You should not sit there and wet my apetite to kill you and evac as soon as you're in red.</p></blockquote><p>Obviously this is because he just does not want to pay attention... even having track... he does not like the proposed change because as it stands right now, evac can correct his errors when he does not pay attention. Funny how some scouts like to tell everyone without track to "pay attention", and yet opposing this change (having the track available).Also, with evac working as it is now, you can try to get the jump (get in closer, in the good position), and evac if you fail to get the jump. In other words, it gives you ability to only engage when you are 100% sure that you will win.</p>

Csky
01-12-2008, 03:16 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You guys don't understand...maybe if you scouts would take some time and see the game form a perspective other the Burger King Scout's...you know, Have it your way.....you would understand what we're talking about....</p><p>I am a mage, I run around without track, and without evac. I find a Scout, and I jump that scout. I broke through his 1st defense....Track. Grats to me, now I have to break through his second defensewhich is common to almost all classes....Speed. I'm locked in combat, he's not. He can run far away form me. But I root him. Grats to me again, I broke through his second defense. now it's time for the final defense....which is Evac. I interrupt him the first time....but little do you scouts know interrupting isn't an every 2 second thing like it is for fighters and scouts.</p><p>Where's my pat on the back for finally jumping YOU when I don't have track?</p><p>And why do you get to evac when you fail at having th eultimate PvP resource....knowing what's coming?</p><p>THAT is th eproblem, and this is our SOlution. Rely on track more if you want, because Evac should not be used after you've been hit. Is that so much to ask or are you still wanting to keep your easy mode?</p></blockquote><p>of course its too much to ask for the easy mode scouts</p><p>i wish SoE would implement a new title called the "chicken title"</p><p>kill a green..adds to your "chicken title" instead of regular title and doesnt count as a kill for the scout OR a stats penalty for the greenie</p><p>attack people in PVE combat adds to the "chicken title" instead of regular title and doesnt count as a kill for the scout OR a stats death for the other player</p><p>run from a a fight in combat adds to thier "chicken title"</p><p>95% of the scouts out there would have the "USDA choice chicken" title on that one</p>

Gimet
01-12-2008, 03:27 PM
Speaking of which...someone just evacced form me in-game. Now let's examine this. He's running, I'm NOT invis and I'm clearly on his track. My friend and I attack him and get him to red, only for him to evac....even though he should've known we were there given track. YOu don't find that a bit much? He had the choice to live or die with evac. Other classes don't. THAT is why the game is so tilted to scouts. And THAT is why it becomes hard for othe rclasses to compete.

Ichigoo
01-12-2008, 04:02 PM
<p>You know you should just talk about whats really making you mad which is obviously not evac cause if it was then i'd be seeing nerf SKs they evac too and [Removed for Content] wizards with their evac. no heres what you think is OP which is Track+Evac=Nerf plz SOE. I play a lot of scouts and they aren't all PVP gods you make them out to be. sure the brig and assassin are probably ranked among the top pvp classes but bards are scouts too. and on a previous thread the dirge was ranked one of the worst pvp classes (higher tiers of course) honestly if your nerfing the brigs to get a fair fight then your making the dirges token machines. Also point two of what you want, is that you want to kill the [Removed for Content] scout. he's obviously not engaged as he can still evac but you want to kill him no matter what. that sounds more like ganking than actual fair fighting. not to mention you jumping the scout on your wizard. hell if you get the jump on a scout and he evacs how is that different from getting the jump on an evac enabled class thats not a scout? its the exact same scenerio. you surprise him, he sees its not in his favor, he evacs. (thats any evac enabled class) </p><p> Also why can't the community every provide ideas for SOE. its always nerf this or nerf that, etc. etc. How about buff up some of the lower classes. Clothies were dieing left and right then mana shield was introduced. The same can be fixed for Necro/conj if they get something add. why is it always the nerfing. </p>

Gimet
01-12-2008, 04:16 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You know you should just talk about whats really making you mad which is obviously not evac cause if it was then i'd be seeing nerf SKs they evac too and [I cannot control my vocabulary] wizards with their evac. no heres what you think is OP which is Track+Evac=Nerf plz SOE. I play a lot of scouts and they aren't all PVP gods you make them out to be. sure the brig and assassin are probably ranked among the top pvp classes but bards are scouts too. and on a previous thread the dirge was ranked one of the worst pvp classes (higher tiers of course) honestly if your nerfing the brigs to get a fair fight then your making the dirges token machines. Also point two of what you want, is that you want to kill the [I cannot control my vocabulary] scout. he's obviously not engaged as he can still evac but you want to kill him no matter what. that sounds more like ganking than actual fair fighting. not to mention you jumping the scout on your wizard. hell if you get the jump on a scout and he evacs how is that different from getting the jump on an evac enabled class thats not a scout? its the exact same scenerio. you surprise him, he sees its not in his favor, he evacs. (thats any evac enabled class) </p><p> Also why can't the community every provide ideas for SOE. its always nerf this or nerf that, etc. etc. How about buff up some of the lower classes. Clothies were dieing left and right then mana shield was introduced. The same can be fixed for Necro/conj if they get something add. why is it always the nerfing. </p></blockquote>That's one of their Primary lines of defense. Unlike scouts who have track to tell when they're about to get jumped, those classes don't. Evac isn't a problem unless you add it with the other benefit called Track which scouts have. If one fails they use another which is not fair being that track basiclaly tells you who, what, and WHEN people are coming.

Ichigoo
01-12-2008, 04:33 PM
well then what you really want is track nerfed or evac for scouts nerfed not for the other classes cause then they wouldn't have a first line of defense and this becomes a nerf scouts thread yet again. But alot of other classes have more than one line of defense. the three scouts have are all for running away. obviously scouts are good at running! did I design them to do that, did you? NO SOE did so i doubt they are gonna take scout specialties away cause they use them the way they are suppose to in PVP. Take the wizzy. he gets evac, then he gets mana shield. nerfing our track or evac will just result in twenty more threads about nerfing wizzy evacs or taking away their mana shield. The SK gets a HT that out of no where might just kill us at half health. just cause their classes have an "a good defense is a good offense" style doesn't make them less than a scout. If you wanna nerf track or only scout evacs, then give my dirge a nuke that rivals fission and we'll talk.

Gimet
01-12-2008, 04:41 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>well then what you really want is track nerfed or evac for scouts nerfed not for the other classes cause then they wouldn't have a first line of defense and this becomes a nerf scouts thread yet again. But alot of other classes have more than one line of defense. the three scouts have are all for running away. obviously scouts are good at running! did I design them to do that, did you? NO SOE did so i doubt they are gonna take scout specialties away cause they use them the way they are suppose to in PVP. Take the wizzy. he gets evac, then he gets mana shield. nerfing our track or evac will just result in twenty more threads about nerfing wizzy evacs or taking away their mana shield. The SK gets a HT that out of no where might just kill us at half health. just cause their classes have an "a good defense is a good offense" style doesn't make them less than a scout. If you wanna nerf track or only scout evacs, then give my dirge a nuke that rivals fission and we'll talk.</blockquote><p>Tell me, how do you have so many kills and only so little deaths?</p><p>How often did you use evac....I'll count running as a valid escape because we all can run.</p><p>How often did you use track?</p><p>See my point?</p>

Ichigoo
01-12-2008, 04:51 PM
Because I ran around in a gank grp back in the day. wanna talk about how unfair gank grps are now? did we need to evac? rarely and that reason is were a flipping grp. there was a rival grp equally twinked and that was the best fights i've had in pvp. thats when i racked up 2500+ but since that disbanded two years ago i've had what 100 kills? do i pvp that much no. the other day i saw another scout before he saw me. he evaced and taunted me. did i care? No. I play other classes with out evac and they kill scouts like they were some NPC mob. heres a trick that'll help. Scouts are not OP. when you see them Pretend not to notice and pull an npc mob. Let them get the first hit, it just guarentees no evac as well as run speed (i'm a FP so i deal with rangers and their range with np). there you have your solution plus when you do own them its that much more painful that they lost while they had the jump and you had mobs on ya. so no offense but its not L2P but L2P even smarter.

Gimet
01-12-2008, 04:56 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because I ran around in a gank grp back in the day. wanna talk about how unfair gank grps are now? did we need to evac? rarely and that reason is were a flipping grp. there was a rival grp equally twinked and that was the best fights i've had in pvp. thats when i racked up 2500+ but since that disbanded two years ago i've had what 100 kills? do i pvp that much no. the other day i saw another scout before he saw me. he evaced and taunted me. did i care? No. I play other classes with out evac and they kill scouts like they were some NPC mob. heres a trick that'll help. Scouts are not OP. when you see them Pretend not to notice and pull an npc mob. Let them get the first hit, it just guarentees no evac as well as run speed (i'm a FP so i deal with rangers and their range with np). there you have your solution plus when you do own them its that much more painful that they lost while they had the jump and you had mobs on ya. so no offense but its not L2P but L2P even smarter.</blockquote><p>Grouping is part of the game. If the other person was caught outside of a group then they weren't on point. Evac is something that not everyone can do....don't relate the two.</p><p>YOu used Evac and you used Track</p><p>And not once did I say Scouts are OP. I just said they had oppurtunities like TRack added onto Evac that allow them advantage sother people don't have.</p>

Elephanton
01-12-2008, 05:08 PM
OK, let's try to stop personal attacks here and try to get back on the proposed change discussion.I'd like to hear from those who are against, what exactly would change it from them, if they cannot cast evac any longer while being under attack (while still retaining the ability to cast it before enemy actually engages)?

HerbertWalker
01-12-2008, 06:05 PM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm against it because it defeats the purpose of having an evac and it opens the doors to mass griefing. What's to stop people from just shooting people to prevent them from escaping ever while the gank squad rolls in? That's just dumb.</blockquote><p>Evac still would serve a purpose, but Yes, it drastically limits the tactical value of evac.   Like every other class, the evac classes would be forced to try to flee via other means of out-of-combat escape tactics, such as sprinting for the zone line.</p><p>I don't see a problem with every class being on a similar footing in this regard.   That is, unless the only classes to have the superior getaway spell, were the gimpest of the [Removed for Content] in most other areas of the game.   That is my preference - to only allow the [Removed for Content] classes to have it.</p><p>Toning down evac would tone down many of the top tier solo pvp classes - predator, rogue, wizard.   It comes at the expense of weakening bards and SKs, which would be unfortunate and should be avoided if possible.</p>

-Arctura-
01-12-2008, 06:21 PM
(( If they removed the ability to evac in combat, uhhhHow about they increase track range so you can actually see people on track before they show up on top of your face <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />As is, track does nothing but tell you who is standing on top of you, or within spell/ranged-attack range. (Proven, dont argue that, you non-scouts have no idea and think track sees the entire zone, go roll a scout and see =P)

Spyderbite
01-12-2008, 06:35 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Are the remove evac threads with only scouts prtesting against not enough data for your smug- data looking needs?</p></blockquote>No they're not. Only about 10% of the entire player base frequents the forums. That's hardly a standard to determine the general population's opinion.Personally, they can yank evac from the game tomorrow and I wouldn't mind. I think the reason that most scouts are being defensive is that there are 2 other active nerfs being demanded as well.Remove evac and let us keep tracking. Remove tracking and let us keep evac. Remove both and give us our stealth back. Make a decision. All the nerf-happy folks here can't seem to agree what the trade off will be. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

HerbertWalker
01-12-2008, 06:37 PM
<p>Everyone rolling a scout is what we are trying to avoid.   That's boring.</p><p>Err... I should say, we are trying to reverse that trend.    It was far to boring for far too long.   I would like to fight a solo guardian at some point, and have him put up a good fight, possibly even kill me badly.</p>

HerbertWalker
01-12-2008, 06:56 PM
<p>If SOE believed each and every piece of dogma found in the Jungle post, then they never would have removed the ability for the enemy to bell hop around your city, ganking noobies, and running for the zone when things got bad.</p><p>Given that SOE does indeed nerf things in almost every large update, I find that the Jungle post does not represent reality perfectly.  You should admit that some nerfs are positive for the game.   Otherwise, you begin to lose credibility.</p><p>Then we can argue about whether nerfing evac would be positive or not.</p>

Shadow_Viper
01-12-2008, 07:00 PM
<p>Posts like these are pretty much just...</p><p>"X class was able to escape from me using Y abilitiy, nerf it!"</p><p>If you are having problems with players evaccing from you, I would suggest visiting your class boards and asking for advice on ways you can stop evac. That would be alot more constructive than making a thread here calling for something to be nerfed.</p>

HerbertWalker
01-12-2008, 07:12 PM
<p>Over one year ago I did the resarch you just suggested there, and I came to my own conclusion that evac, in combination with track and high dps, make for an overpowered class, and thus extremely overplayed class.   My preference is to fight against a wide variety of classes, and I don't really have that in today's game.</p><p>Hence, I call for nerfs - not of evac.   I call for nerfs to the overplayed classes in general, and buffs to the underplayed.</p><p>Given that some historic nerfs have been very overwhelmingly positive to the overall game, I think that an evac nerf as it applies to swashbucklers, brigands, and rangers.... <u>could</u> be very positive.</p>

Shadow_Viper
01-12-2008, 07:21 PM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Over one year ago I did the resarch you just suggested there, and I came to my own conclusion that evac, in combination with track and high dps, make for an overpowered class, and thus extremely overplayed class.   My preference is to fight against a wide variety of classes, and I don't really have that in today's game.</p><p>Hence, I call for nerfs - not of evac.   I call for nerfs to the overplayed classes in general, and buffs to the underplayed.</p><p>Given that some historic nerfs have been very overwhelmingly positive to the overall game, I think that an evac nerf as it applies to swashbucklers, brigands, and rangers.... <u>could</u> be very positive.</p></blockquote>Sorry, but just because you believe some classes are over-powered, doesn't make them overpowered. Doesn't work that way. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Spyderbite
01-12-2008, 07:31 PM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hence, I call for nerfs - not of evac.   I call for nerfs to the overplayed classes in general, and buffs to the underplayed.</p></blockquote>*gags* I'm having flashbacks of Les Miserables now..

Path
01-12-2008, 07:39 PM
<p>Okay, So Evac is a defensive thing.  I concur.</p><p>So Is healing, is it not?</p><p>If I strike a healer, why dont they go into combat?</p><p>we can all complain about how one side is uneven, but there's always going to be a rebuttle.Good Evening to you all, Happy Hunting.</p>

Darkor
01-12-2008, 08:09 PM
<p>Evac on a 45-60 minut recast and recast not counting down untill you leave the immunity OR evac on a 45-60 minut timer with 30 second immunity but random evac spots (a chocie of all the revive spots)</p><p>Problem solved.</p>

Elephanton
01-12-2008, 10:36 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Okay, So Evac is a defensive thing.  I concur.</p><p>So Is healing, is it not?</p><p>If I strike a healer, why dont they go into combat?</p></blockquote>Actually, they do... for at least half-year now... thank you.

-Arctura-
01-12-2008, 10:43 PM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Evac on a 45-60 minut recast and recast not counting down untill you leave the immunity OR evac on a 45-60 minut timer with 30 second immunity but random evac spots (a chocie of all the revive spots)</p><p>Problem solved.</p></blockquote>(( i hate to say i like some of these ideas <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> esp. the random destination one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Darkor
01-12-2008, 11:01 PM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Evac on a 45-60 minut recast and recast not counting down untill you leave the immunity OR evac on a 45-60 minut timer with 30 second immunity but random evac spots (a chocie of all the revive spots)</p><p>Problem solved.</p></blockquote>(( i hate to say i like some of these ideas <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> esp. the random destination one <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Make it random, or give the player 5 seconds time to pick it up like the revive window, if he doesnt pick a special point up he gets it randomed/or to the default one. So much potential has this game... but its wasted.

Morninglord21
01-13-2008, 01:34 AM
One of the combination of abilities does need to go in pvp. I see no problem with evac not working if you get hit, for all classes with evac, and the locket. This gives scouts an advantage since tracking lets them get the jump an d also use evac if they see large numbers of peopl e coming and a disadvantage in that if they are not alert and get jumped they die like every other class. Having a class with an evac, I wouldn't find a problem with it. I'm always trying to be alert and watching 360 around me when I'm trying to pvp, so I can hit the evac before I get hit if the odds are against me, as I'm unlikely to get it off while being hit since it's not a combat art like a scouts.The not giving immunity and the not starting the recast timer until you leave immunity are also good suggestions I think.I would not be in favour of track also being tweaked at the same time. That is too much. One or the other.I do hope nobody here agrees that neither need to go and the class should remain as is. There are limits to selfishness.I also think there needs to be a cap on runspeed and snare. Root no, snare yes. Should be capped, as should runspeed once you have been hit it should drop. Not all the way, so don't panick little panicky people who love to panick. Just a global cap so that nobody can get past it that is less than 100%. What should it be? I don't know, that's for another debate. I have a warden and a brig, so I just suggested a nerf to my run speed (currently a ridiculous 60% for free with my racial) and my snare (godlike 1s cast 40% debuff needs no money to upgrade and levels with me and can be upgraded to be very hard to resist and faster to reuse) as well as my wardens evac alongside the scouts. Not that this will stop people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about or am biased, I'm sure. Argument ad hominem is always a handy logical fallacy used to sidestep the concept being discussed.All these things wont happen I don't think. They don't have many devs working on pvp do they? One man can't think of everything and the chaos that is these forums will not be giving him good information. It would take a lot of effort to code and balance all that for only three pvp servers. Most likely they'll just nerf the most whined about ability harshly and be done with it.10% of a population is a perfectly valid sample space though. Most surveys use a lot less than that to decide national policy on a government level. I don't see why a game should be immune. People are not different enough that 10% can't encompass the normal distribution curve of human behaviour. If you must be hell bent on denying it's validity, you could say it is less useful because 10% is too large of a sample. Most surveys try to use a lower sample space because the statistical formulas employed can sometimes cause results to appear significant when they are not (because they are not replicable by another survey). The ideal sample space is not a hard number, but it's a lot smaller than you would think.However, arguing it is not valid because it's too small is a misinformed stance to be taking.

Ichigoo
01-13-2008, 01:53 AM
<p>What are you guys talking about? if the scout engages evac is disabled! It doesn't kill you in any way or form, it just helps the scout run away. But hey "everyone" thinks its unfair. ok how about this, make the casting time longer, like 3-4 secs. it's still cast on the run but if you get interrupted in any way, shape, or form then gameover, you are put into combat and evac becomes DISABLED. BUT if there are still complaints about scouts I will refuse to give any grounds in the future and just post L2P after any argument because if you can't interrupt a scout on a 3-4 sec cast then you really do need to L2P. </p><p>Also I already provided an arguement of killing scouts. On my wizard with Mana shield (now thats overpowered) i just let the scout get the jump. even with the jump and all fabled gear, a wizzy in treasured with adepts and mana shield will still win! I've seen other classes do the same thing because with them they know how to beat a scout. the only reason scouts have big KvD ratios is because they can run away easier not cause they can kill any other class coming at them. so let the [Removed for Content] scout get the jump, pretend to be afk or something and boom no evac; much more of drawback then this minor nerf.</p>

Gimet
01-13-2008, 02:05 AM
<p>I want you to promelgate your data whenever you get a chance as to why you are defending evac so much and constantly telling me L2P....here, let me explain to you fully in the simplest of ways.</p><p>At my level, and being a Conjuror....I have 2 things to stop evac. My Stun, and my Knockback. I was quick enough to get a jump on some scout because they obviously weren't paying attention to Track. As with almost every scout I happen to fight, I'll say about 6-7/10, they immediately freak when they're jumped and Evac. I cast my Stun, he presses Evac again. I use my Knockback, he presses Evac yet again. My stun can hit for 400 damage and my knockback maybe 500. Do you expect them to be dead before they press evac yet again and me not being able to do anything? From this point they'll either stalk and kill me from the location in which they evac'd from, or being that ever evac point in the earlier teirs is near the docks, they'll go wait on the docks for evac to recharge to ensure they live getting jumped yet again.</p><p>I don't like being ganked, and as you said nobody does. But Scouts have two, TWO (2), ways to avoid getting jumped. Track to foresee as I've said....and Evac. They basicaly do the same things...they let you escape from your enemy. So why is it your first way to realize you're about to be hit only leads to your second chance to get away? Let's examine classes for defense....or ways to escape rather....</p><p>Druids- Wardens get Evac (1 Defense), Furies get runspeed if attacked (1 Defense)</p><p>Summoners- Does anyone else hear those crickets chirping?</p><p>Sorcerers- Wizards get Evac and mana-shield (2 Defenses) though mana-shield is tough it has been proven time and time again to be stopped in later tiers...And doesn't it force you in combat or was that never implemented? Warlocks get Manashield (1 Defense).</p><p>Shamans- There goes those [I cannot control my vocabulary] crickets again.</p><p>Brawlers- Anyone have bug spray? The chirping is killing me.</p><p>Clerics- /stomp I got one! One less cricket. =)</p><p>Rogues (Not including Assassin)- Track, Run-speed, evac. (3 Defenses)</p><p>Predators of old (Meaning Assassin and Ranger)- Ranger=Rediculous AA'd runspeed, Track, and an enhanced casting Evac. (3 Defenses)</p><p>Must I go further? Why are scouts exclusive to getting away while fighters and mages...and even priests are forced to fight use-less battles when outnumbered and die? </p><p>And you guys wonder why you can Solo so well.</p><p>Once again, all I'm saying is that Evacuate should not be used after being hit. You snooze on tracking, you lose. Would that really be so detrimental being that you watch track anyway?! All it will do is make it a tad bit harder for you to get away.</p><p>Edit: Is this post bad? As soon as I posted this I saw Echgar's after mine. Sorry.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

Echgar
01-13-2008, 02:07 AM
While I see some of you posting about how tired you are seeing the same subjects and discussions coming up again and again, I feel the same although not for the same reasons.Having a discussion about EverQuest II is why you're all here.  Being passionate about it is something I hope everyone is!  Do not let your passion, however, drive yourself into circular arguments with other posters -- this just leads to personal attacks, insults, namecalling, and other bad behavior prohibited by the forum rules.Disagreeing with each other is fine, but keep your disagreement on-topic, constructive, and courteous.  Some of you, in posts no longer with us, have been taking things a tad too far and really need to cease the back and forth bickering.  Or don't and see what happens (hint: it involves the Ban Stick™) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

-Arctura-
01-13-2008, 02:50 AM
(( While we are at it, why dont we remove every classes passive non agressive defense or self-salvation abilities.....dont forgetbards get super fast runspeeddruids get Pact of cheetah sk get evac tooWheres the equality? ^_^and to the person who said make it 3-4 second cast time, its already 3 seconds.

Amphibia
01-13-2008, 06:44 AM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( While we are at it, why dont we remove every classes passive non agressive defense or self-salvation abilities.....dont forgetbards get super fast runspeeddruids get Pact of cheetah sk get evac tooWheres the equality? ^_^and to the person who said make it 3-4 second cast time, its already 3 seconds.</blockquote>Did you even bother to read the OP? Attempting to use Pact of Cheetah to get away from someone after being hit provides no defense at all, because it actually will <b>put you into PvP combat</b>. Using a potion to get rid of a snare does the same thing, and so does popping anti stun/snare/fear pots, or use any kind of means to slow down your attackers so you may get away. I guess the devs didn't want players to have a too easy time escaping death on a PvP server, just too bad they forgot about evac...As for bards, they kept in combat runspeed to be able to kite people. I guess furies lost their PoC for the same reason, but that change also made the skill useless as a defense against ganking.

-Arctura-
01-13-2008, 08:01 AM
<cite></cite><blockquote>Attempting to use Pact of Cheetah to get away from someone after being hit provides no defense at all, because it actually will <b>put you into PvP combat</b>. </blockquote>(( Doh! I made a mistake, I was wrong about the PoC. Thanks for the correction! /nods

Roald
01-13-2008, 08:28 AM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>Two shotting full groups as a <span style="font-size: x-small;"><b>mage</b></span> isn't ezmode? If scouts really are so advantaged, why don't you play one instead of the <span style="font-size: x-small;"><b>mage</b></span>? Why not view it from the scout perspective that has to break through >21000 hp from someone nuking through focused casting? Apologies for making you need to use more than 2 buttons to kill everyone as a <span style="font-size: x-small;"><b>mage</b></span>.I find it pretty humorous in the class specific forums that <span style="font-size: x-small;"><b>mages</b></span> [email protected] for being free kills and yet in the more public ones, it's qqscout this, qqscout that. Perhaps you should visit your class forums to learn how to play from the people who understand their class rather than instantly complaining about anyone that isn't easy for you?<span style="font-size: x-small;">All I see in the PvP forums is the ridiculous generalization that everyone who kills you is overpowered regardless of class.</span></blockquote><p>Mage = Sorcerers, Summoners and Enchanters</p><p>Sorcerer = Wizard and Warlock</p><p>Enchanter = Coercer and Illusionist</p><p>Summoner = Necromancer and Conjurer</p><p>Only sorcerers get manashield <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Krakelkr
01-13-2008, 11:02 AM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't even summon horse after being attacked without being put in PVP combat.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why EVAC does not do the same thing then? How fair is that?</span></p><p>In my opinion,  EVAC should not work if you are already being attacked by an enemy.Just like every other defensive action out there, casting EVAC in this case should put you in combat and make EVAC not work.If you spot an enemy in advance, and decide to flee before they start hitting you - fine, you can do that.But, if you are already being attacked, sorry, all defensive actions used under attack must put you in combat.</p></blockquote>Many of of the actions that put you in combat aren't intended to. The situation has been awaiting a fix for the last half a year or so.

Oneira
01-13-2008, 11:58 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I want you to promelgate your data whenever you get a chance as to why you are defending evac so much and constantly telling me L2P....here, let me explain to you fully in the simplest of ways.</p><p>At my level, and being a Conjuror....I have 2 things to stop evac. My Stun, and my Knockback. I was quick enough to get a jump on some scout because they obviously weren't paying attention to Track. As with almost every scout I happen to fight, I'll say about 6-7/10, they immediately freak when they're jumped and Evac. I cast my Stun, he presses Evac again. I use my Knockback, he presses Evac yet again. My stun can hit for 400 damage and my knockback maybe 500. Do you expect them to be dead before they press evac yet again and me not being able to do anything? From this point they'll either stalk and kill me from the location in which they evac'd from, or being that ever evac point in the earlier teirs is near the docks, they'll go wait on the docks for evac to recharge to ensure they live getting jumped yet again.</p><p>I don't like being ganked, and as you said nobody does. But Scouts have two, TWO (2), ways to avoid getting jumped. Track to foresee as I've said....and Evac. They basicaly do the same things...they let you escape from your enemy. So why is it your first way to realize you're about to be hit only leads to your second chance to get away? Let's examine classes for defense....or ways to escape rather....</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Druids- Wardens get Evac (1 Defense), Furies get runspeed if attacked (1 Defense)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Summoners- Does anyone else hear those crickets chirping?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Sorcerers- Wizards get Evac and mana-shield (2 Defenses) though mana-shield is tough it has been proven time and time again to be stopped in later tiers...And doesn't it force you in combat or was that never implemented? Warlocks get Manashield (1 Defense).</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Shamans- There goes those [I cannot control my vocabulary] crickets again.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Brawlers- Anyone have bug spray? The chirping is killing me.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Clerics- /stomp I got one! One less cricket. =)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Rogues (Not including Assassin)- Track, Run-speed, evac. (3 Defenses)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Predators of old (Meaning Assassin and Ranger)- Ranger=Rediculous AA'd runspeed, Track, and an enhanced casting Evac. (3 Defenses)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">Must I go further? Why are scouts exclusive to getting away while fighters and mages...and even priests are forced to fight use-less battles when outnumbered and die? </span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0033;">And you guys wonder why you can Solo so well.</span></b></p><p>Once again, all I'm saying is that Evacuate should not be used after being hit. You snooze on tracking, you lose. Would that really be so detrimental being that you watch track anyway?! All it will do is make it a tad bit harder for you to get away.</p><p>Edit: Is this post bad? As soon as I posted this I saw Echgar's after mine. Sorry.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>WaitI! What about us Illlusionists and Coercers?!?  We get, umm, evac?? no.... teleport??? no....manashield??? no.... Illusion, Barbarian with wings on him if you're a Fae??   Yes!!!  It's awesome!!

Elephanton
01-13-2008, 12:41 PM
<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Many of of the actions that put you in combat aren't intended to. The situation has been awaiting a fix for the last half a year or so.</blockquote><p>Actually, when this change was made, Aeralik posted and said that these changes were <b>intended</b>.He also said what exactly was not intended to put in combat (stealth, food/drinks etc.) and that was fixed shortly.</p><p>I only wonder why they missed evac...</p>

Dh
01-13-2008, 02:14 PM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( While we are at it, why dont we remove every classes passive non agressive defense or self-salvation abilities.....dont forgetbards get super fast runspeeddruids get Pact of cheetah sk get evac tooWheres the equality? ^_^and to the person who said make it 3-4 second cast time, its already 3 seconds.</blockquote><p>PoC puts you in combat if you are attacked first.</p><p>Sk has the perfect evac. It's interruptable and you cannot run while casting it. Scout evac should be this way. <b><span style="font-size: medium;">"Wheres the equality? ^_^"</span></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b></b></p><p></p>

Elephanton
01-13-2008, 05:59 PM
I think most people are still missing the point of suggested change here.You still keep evac, you just need to use it before your enemy starts hitting you.If they got you, sorry - you are lying knocked down on the ground, so no more pooff - disappeared.You have your Track, use it to choose your fights, evac from x2, engage weak target etc.But no longer dancing around the target, going into red health, and then evacing.<span style="font-size: medium;">Again, you do keep ability to choose your fights... but not after the fight has already <u>started</u>, sorry that's just does not make any sense.</span>

Krakelkr
01-13-2008, 07:15 PM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Many of of the actions that put you in combat aren't intended to. The situation has been awaiting a fix for the last half a year or so.</blockquote><p>Actually, when this change was made, Aeralik posted and said that these changes were <b>intended</b>.He also said what exactly was not intended to put in combat (stealth, food/drinks etc.) and that was fixed shortly.</p><p>I only wonder why they missed evac...</p></blockquote><p>Nothing was fixed. And I certainly won't presume to know what was intended and what wasn't as long as the fixes aren't in.This was the post:<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=165&topic_id=382325�" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...382325�</a></p>

Kru
01-13-2008, 08:24 PM
This change happened a couple LU's ago.  It was NOT posted in the patch notes.  It was just ninja changed one day.  You can't sneak, you can't use see invis totem, you can't mount your horse...you can't do anything if you were attacked in the past 30 seconds or so.It's STUPID.  I know.  Everybody at the time this happened thought for sure it was a bug and that it would just be a matter of days before it was hotfixed.  Low and behold, it was never hotfixed, and we still have these issues today.People have asked the developers time and time again if this was an intended change or if this was an accidental bug.  To my knowledge, we have yet to receive one response from a developer indicating whether this was intended or not.I think the reason is pretty clear.  If they say it's a bug, they look dumb for letting it exist for SO LONG.  If they say it was intended, they STILL look dumb to anybody who is experienced in PVP and knows how ludicrous an idea it is to be put into PVP combat when you try to stealth away from somebody attacking you.  They are stuck in a catch 22.  So my prediction is they will ignore anybody and everybody who ever brings up this topic in the future.  It's the only "safe" way of handling the situation for them.

Elephanton
01-14-2008, 08:04 AM
<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Nothing was fixed. And I certainly won't presume to know what was intended and what wasn't as long as the fixes aren't in.This was the post:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=165&topic_id=382325�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...382325?</a></p></blockquote>I dunno what you are talking about when you say nothing was fixed, but everything Aeralik stated in that post is fixed for me - stealth, food, drinks etc. do not put me in combat.

Bozidar
01-14-2008, 11:13 AM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't even summon horse after being attacked without being put in PVP combat.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why EVAC does not do the same thing then? How fair is that?</span></p><p>In my opinion,  EVAC should not work if you are already being attacked by an enemy.Just like every other defensive action out there, casting EVAC in this case should put you in combat and make EVAC not work.If you spot an enemy in advance, and decide to flee before they start hitting you - fine, you can do that.But, if you are already being attacked, sorry, all defensive actions used under attack must put you in combat.</p></blockquote><p>the racial sprints don't put ya into combat.</p><p>evac isn't a defensive measure.</p><p>should your call put you into combat?</p><p>how about zoning, should zoning put you into combat?</p><p>I think the answer here is to fix the buggy crap that puts you into combat, not ask that more things put us into combat.</p>

-Arctura-
01-14-2008, 10:34 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't even summon horse after being attacked without being put in PVP combat.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why EVAC does not do the same thing then? How fair is that?</span></p><p>In my opinion,  EVAC should not work if you are already being attacked by an enemy.Just like every other defensive action out there, casting EVAC in this case should put you in combat and make EVAC not work.If you spot an enemy in advance, and decide to flee before they start hitting you - fine, you can do that.But, if you are already being attacked, sorry, all defensive actions used under attack must put you in combat.</p></blockquote><p>the racial sprints don't put ya into combat.</p><p>evac isn't a defensive measure.</p><p>should your call put you into combat?</p><p>how about zoning, should zoning put you into combat?</p><p>I think the answer here is to fix the buggy crap that puts you into combat, not ask that more things put us into combat.</p></blockquote>(( Bodizar you are my new public PR rep <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I <3 you

HerbertWalker
01-14-2008, 10:47 PM
Explain how evac, or Call, or zoning away from an attacker is <u>not</u> a defensive measure  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Aerlyn
01-14-2008, 10:58 PM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>... If scouts really are so advantaged, why don't you play one instead of the mage? ...</blockquote>I'm tired of seeing this argument.  It's ridiculous.

HerbertWalker
01-14-2008, 11:21 PM
<p>We play classes other than the most powerful because we are EQ2 veterans and getting a little bored of our overpowered classes.   It is fun to play sometimes on the extreme difficulty level.  However, greater class parity would make the game way more fun to us, and give us much more playability, because a variety of tactis and strategies would come into play.</p><p>I did not just arrive here on Naggy, working to get my thousands of kills in on my uber character.   I am looking for replayability, with a somewhat closer margin of success chance on each characater, regargless of class.   Otherwise, this game is very shallow and cannot hold me much longer.</p>

Bloodfa
01-14-2008, 11:42 PM
Wizards and Warlocks, with the combination of Manashield and insane DPS, are the top of the food chain.  All it takes is a stroll over to that section of the class forums.  Other classes, yeah, they'll have it rough, but honestly, nukers complaining about scouts getting away is along the lines of scouts complaining about a healer getting away.  Now, excuse me while I go level up my Wizard.

HerbertWalker
01-14-2008, 11:51 PM
The wizard hayday was 2007.   A good year.   Wizards are due for a nerf, right after swash, brig, ranger, and wardens.   For true replayability, this veteran needs guardians, summoners, enchanters, and bards boosted, along with those OP class nerfs.

Bloodfa
01-14-2008, 11:58 PM
Tell you what ... we'll disagree on a few things, but I'll back you on any thread for <i>those</i> classes to get a boost further <u>up</u> the food chain.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

HerbertWalker
01-15-2008, 12:08 AM
<p>So true that boosts to the bottom [Removed for Content] are needed before nerfs to the top.</p><p>We argue about who on top should get nerfed first, when it is entirely obvious that the [Removed for Content] are suffering (and so goes the replayability of the game.)</p>

-Arctura-
01-15-2008, 12:13 AM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote>Explain how evac, or Call, or zoning away from an attacker is <u>not</u> a defensive measure  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>(( they are evasive measures, not defensive.eg.When you put up your arms to stop someone from hitting you, its defensive. You have made the decision to stay and defend yourself.When you run away from someone hitting you, its evasive <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

HerbertWalker
01-15-2008, 12:18 AM
<p>Stands to reason then, that PoC or getting on your horse are evasive measures, much the same.</p>

Badaxe Ba
01-15-2008, 01:35 AM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Stands to reason then, that PoC or getting on your horse are evasive measures, much the same.</p></blockquote><p>Lets see, there is a tad difference here between these abilities and evac.  Before they were changed to their current state, they could be used as an advantage in speed over an opponent who did not have these abilities to 'win' in combat.  Evac could never be used to give a scout a kill or to gain an advantage resulting in a win.</p><p>Fury groups could 'pop' PoC and using the high speed outmaneuver or run down an opponent.  Same for horses.</p><p>At the same time as these were changed, scouts lost their incombat speeds for PvP.</p><p>There are several problems with attempting to change not one class, but six, that has an archetypal ability, not a combat art, as someone called it.</p><p>One, its not just one class.  Two, it doesn't result into a win for those classes either, other than avoiding combat.  Three, it would in no way help classes that need help to become more equal, and is therefore not constructive at all.  </p>

Elephanton
01-15-2008, 12:33 PM
<p><span style="font-size: small;color: #ffff00;">Guys, seriously, please stop trying to make up good explanation why EVAC is much different evasive maneuver than POC, or getting on horse, or especially casting Call. These attempts do make you look silly, honestly. Come on, you cannot be so stupid to really believe in what you say here in your arguements.</span></p>

Faenril
01-15-2008, 01:48 PM
Honnestly as a scout, I could completely understand that I can't evac once someone start beating on me, or that evac is changed to be more like SK or wiz evac. Why ? Because if I let a potential threat get that close to me, it means I did not do my scout job properly and I somehow desserve to die. That thing being said, if such a change was done I would also expect to get a working track, not the current joke that takes ages to refresh and that barely shows what's within line of sight. At the moment if someone is running/flying straight in your direction, either by intent or by accident, track will sometimes tell you once he's right in front of you (or sometimes once you are dead). On the same topic rendering distances for PCs should be improved also, because today when I am flying a sokolar I don't see the gank group waiting for me before I land, which makes it impossible to escape without a "very hard to interrupt" evac <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So in order to summerize the idea: make it possible to anticipate on the ennemy reliably, and harder to escape once the ennemy is on you. Being a good tracker takes at least little skill and attention, being a good evacer takes ... well ...

Derrickr
01-15-2008, 02:01 PM
<p>I think evac shouldn't be able to be used if someone attacking you is within a certain proximity of you.  If you manage to sprint far enough ahead to use it safely so be it; but it should be disable when someone is right on top of you.</p><p>I play a swash and I rarely ever use evac.  I'm the type of player who doesn't care about my KvD ratio.  I fight for fun and not for titles.  If a group attacks me and I'm know I'm gonna die my goal is to take down 1 or 2 before they kill me.</p><p>When I first joined the PvP server I thought this is how the environment would be.  Hoardes of players killing and being killed for the sport of it.  Instead I see more running than fighting.</p><p>I'm for any changes that will promote more fighting and less running.  If someone mangages to make it close enough to you to engage you then you're engaged; go down swinging.</p><p>.</p>

Bozidar
01-15-2008, 02:15 PM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote>Explain how evac, or Call, or zoning away from an attacker is <u>not</u> a defensive measure  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>How about walking away? Is that a defensive measure?  How about camping?  If I /camp, do I come back in combat, or does the aggro transfer to the toon i bring in next? How about a scout shows up at my house and auto-attacks me for 5K in 2 shots because i camp'd out and my home doesn't provide immunity anymore?

Bozidar
01-15-2008, 02:19 PM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Stands to reason then, that PoC or getting on your horse are evasive measures, much the same.</p></blockquote>if POC didnt' carry a cure component on it, it would be.  The horse should be.. but it's bugged.

Norrsken
01-15-2008, 02:32 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote>Explain how evac, or Call, or zoning away from an attacker is <u>not</u> a defensive measure  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>How about walking away? Is that a defensive measure?  How about camping?  If I /camp, do I come back in combat, or does the aggro transfer to the toon i bring in next? How about a scout shows up at my house and auto-attacks me for 5K in 2 shots because i camp'd out and my home doesn't provide immunity anymore?</blockquote>You stop preparing your camp when something hits you, so campingd oesnt put you in combat, but its unusable while being attacked. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bozidar
01-15-2008, 02:35 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote>Explain how evac, or Call, or zoning away from an attacker is <u>not</u> a defensive measure  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>How about walking away? Is that a defensive measure?  How about camping?  If I /camp, do I come back in combat, or does the aggro transfer to the toon i bring in next? How about a scout shows up at my house and auto-attacks me for 5K in 2 shots because i camp'd out and my home doesn't provide immunity anymore?</blockquote>You stop preparing your camp when something hits you, so campingd oesnt put you in combat, but its unusable while being attacked. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>and what if someone snares me, and THEN i /camp while they're distracted by a mob?</p><p>Dont try to out-BS the BSer. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

keLston
01-16-2008, 04:04 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>... If scouts really are so advantaged, why don't you play one instead of the mage? ...</blockquote>I'm tired of seeing this argument.  It's ridiculous.</blockquote>Why?It's one of the best suggestions because it places you in the shoes of the class you most hate. It provides you with first hand insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the class. People asking for nerfs always squeeze in the "well you should see it from my side" argument. Why can't you do the same and see it from the side of the class you're saying is too strong?Obviously, people have killed scouts before even with their evac available. Play a scout, find out how. I had problems fighting manashield classes. My first reaction wasn't to post in the forums demanding manashield be nerfed. I rolled a class with manashield.There is so much misinformation that is thrown around in nerf threads that it's just silly. This is why nerf threads rarely result in a nerf based on popularity alone. Roll the class you're weakest against or have the most problems guaranteeing a kill against and find out what more you could have done and judge it in an unbiased manner. If even after you gave it an honest attempt and still can't figure it out, ask an honest question in the class specific forums. Making a nerf thread should only be an answer when all other resources have been exhausted and that is almost never the case when a new nerf thread spawns.

-Arctura-
01-16-2008, 05:05 PM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>... If scouts really are so advantaged, why don't you play one instead of the mage? ...</blockquote>I'm tired of seeing this argument.  It's ridiculous.</blockquote>Why?It's one of the best suggestions because it places you in the shoes of the class you most hate. It provides you with first hand insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the class. People asking for nerfs always squeeze in the "well you should see it from my side" argument. Why can't you do the same and see it from the side of the class you're saying is too strong?Obviously, people have killed scouts before even with their evac available. Play a scout, find out how. I had problems fighting manashield classes. My first reaction wasn't to post in the forums demanding manashield be nerfed. I rolled a class with manashield.There is so much misinformation that is thrown around in nerf threads that it's just silly. This is why nerf threads rarely result in a nerf based on popularity alone. Roll the class you're weakest against or have the most problems guaranteeing a kill against and find out what more you could have done and judge it in an unbiased manner. If even after you gave it an honest attempt and still can't figure it out, ask an honest question in the class specific forums. Making a nerf thread should only be an answer when all other resources have been exhausted and that is almost never the case when a new nerf thread spawns.</blockquote>(( wise words keLston. In other words, play a scout and see <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It will finally put an end to peoples old-wives' tales that evac is unstoppable. *laughs*

Aerlyn
01-16-2008, 10:09 PM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>... If scouts really are so advantaged, why don't you play one instead of the mage? ...</blockquote>I'm tired of seeing this argument.  It's ridiculous.</blockquote>Why?It's one of the best suggestions because it places you in the shoes of the class you most hate. It provides you with first hand insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the class. People asking for nerfs always squeeze in the "well you should see it from my side" argument. Why can't you do the same and see it from the side of the class you're saying is too strong?Obviously, people have killed scouts before even with their evac available. Play a scout, find out how. I had problems fighting manashield classes. My first reaction wasn't to post in the forums demanding manashield be nerfed. I rolled a class with manashield.There is so much misinformation that is thrown around in nerf threads that it's just silly. This is why nerf threads rarely result in a nerf based on popularity alone. Roll the class you're weakest against or have the most problems guaranteeing a kill against and find out what more you could have done and judge it in an unbiased manner. If even after you gave it an honest attempt and still can't figure it out, ask an honest question in the class specific forums. Making a nerf thread should only be an answer when all other resources have been exhausted and that is almost never the case when a new nerf thread spawns.</blockquote>I suppose I interpreted the comment as "stop playing your mage character and play a scout instead", but I see how you may have meant it differently, so sorry about that.  I've ocassionally seen comments like that in other threads in the past, so I may have had a knee-jerk reaction to it.

Xantinya
01-16-2008, 10:25 PM
<p>I'm sorry I didnt read all the posts, but to answer your question "Why every defensive action used under attack puts in combat, except EVAC?", it is an "evasive" action, not defensive.  Running away doesnt put you in combat either and its the same type of action.</p><p>Speaking of combat mode, I may be wrong but I think its the only game I've played where you run slower if in combat (i.e. if you were fighting something/someone and then try to run away), I played EQ1 and many other games, and I don't think I have seen that before, and I never thought it was a good idea either, I don't think your run speed should change whether you are in combat or not, if there's something when you run away from something you tend to run faster lol.</p>

Aerlyn
01-16-2008, 11:04 PM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>(( wise words keLston. In other words, play a scout and see <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />  It will finally put an end to peoples old-wives' tales that evac is unstoppable. *laughs*</blockquote>I've repeatedly seen people make the claim that "scout evac isn't unstoppable".  Not being very knowledgable on all the different types of evac, I asked about it in <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=403624#4519892" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">another thread</a>:The responses to that post seem to indicate that scout evac is by far easier to successfully execute than other types of evac, and that it is very difficult to outright stop a scout from casting it.  Sure, it can be interrupted.  Everything can be interrupted.  But the opinion was that if interrupted, a scout could easily cast again successfully.I've read recently (though I don't remember which thread, sorry), where someone explained how they had perhaps 2 or 3 abilities to use that could possibly interrupt a scout casting evac, but that ultimately there was no way to really prevent a scout from eventually casting it if they are really trying to do so.I've read similar comments in several other threads in the past where people mention how difficult it is to prevent a scout from casting evac (a 3 second cast combat art).So rather than just laughing at the "old-wive's tales", does anyone have a more substantial opinion on this?  Yes, yes, evac is interruptable, just like everything else.  But what's your perspective really?  Rather than just saying "it can be interrupted", how easy/difficult do you really think it is to prevent a scout from using evac?

HerbertWalker
01-16-2008, 11:13 PM
<p>It is way easier to interrupt a wizard evac than it is to interrupt a scout evac.  But I'm sure someone will disagree and demand that I prove such a claim with empirical data.</p><p>Whatever, my only desire is to have each class be represented somewhat equally population wise, because I am bored fighting scouts constantly.    I would love for a guardian to hunt me down and kick my [Removed for Content], but it will never happen because they are weak.    I will beat them every time.   Hence, no one plays them.   The class may as well not even exist.... along with some others.</p>

keLston
01-17-2008, 01:46 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>(( wise words keLston. In other words, play a scout and see <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />  It will finally put an end to peoples old-wives' tales that evac is unstoppable. *laughs*</blockquote>I've repeatedly seen people make the claim that "scout evac isn't unstoppable".  Not being very knowledgable on all the different types of evac, I asked about it in <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=403624#4519892" target="_blank">another thread</a>:The responses to that post seem to indicate that scout evac is by far easier to successfully execute than other types of evac, and that it is very difficult to outright stop a scout from casting it.  Sure, it can be interrupted.  Everything can be interrupted.  But the opinion was that if interrupted, a scout could easily cast again successfully.I've read recently (though I don't remember which thread, sorry), where someone explained how they had perhaps 2 or 3 abilities to use that could possibly interrupt a scout casting evac, but that ultimately there was no way to really prevent a scout from eventually casting it if they are really trying to do so.I've read similar comments in several other threads in the past where people mention how difficult it is to prevent a scout from casting evac (a 3 second cast combat art).So rather than just laughing at the "old-wive's tales", does anyone have a more substantial opinion on this?  Yes, yes, evac is interruptable, just like everything else.  But what's your perspective really?  Rather than just saying "it can be interrupted", how easy/difficult do you really think it is to prevent a scout from using evac?</blockquote>I would say fairly easily.I play both a casting class and a Scout. One major mistake I see many people make, is that people blow everything instantly. I make the same mistake myself. I get in a fight, omg I have a combat art I could use that does damage and it's not on cooldown, bam I press the button. The problem is, some CAs have secondary effects that most people seemingly ignore.As a brigand, I have the following abilities as it stands: Low Blow, Cheap Shot, Maddening Throw, Distracting Blade (or whatever it's upgrade is), Retribution. That's 5 abilities to interrupt a spellcast. I've fought alongside brigands and what do I see? All 5 of those abilities are used within the first few seconds of the fight. So at any point if you would want to interrupt a spellcast, you don't have an interrupt available. How many people could say they could actually list instantly (don't mouseover your abilities) what CAs you have that can interrupt a cast? And how many times do you actually save it to use as an interrupt rather than as an additional attack to help your burst damage?That seems to be one of the problems. Everyone seems to expect a fight to end or be decided within the first 10 seconds of the fight. Why couldn't you have a fight last longer? Why wouldn't anyone plan for a fight that lasts longer? I'm sure there are skilled players that do plan for elongated fights, but most people don't seem to do it. In my evac attempts so far, i've had absolutely 0 people attempt to interrupt it. The only time it was interrupted was because I died (I was burst for more hitpoints than I had in one second, it was an orange con, I accepted that). What happened to the stuns? What happened to all the interrupts?One of my guildmates is a Shadowknight. He took me into my first Arena match and we fought each other, 20 fights. First 12 fights, I lost. It wasn't even a contest. I did what most people seem to do. Sneak up, open and lay the smack down. Didn't quite work out. So, after talking with him a bit, instead of smashing all my buttons and hope he dies once all my abilities were on cooldown, I fought him differently. Run in, 2 attacks, run away. Save stuns to interrupt spellcasts to prevent my running away to kite him. And I won the remaining 6 of the remaining 8.Perhaps this is a type of fighting style that needs to be introduced and taught. Slow and steady. Why not save your interrupts to interrupt instead of using it for damage?

Psych
01-17-2008, 02:20 AM
Telling someone to stop scout evac with an interrupt is like telling someone to try and stop any long cast time combat art with an interrupt because thats what it is, a long cast time combat art. Its ridiculous. Combat arts can only be interrupted by HARD interrupts and not a class in the game gets enough of them to stop a scout that really wants to get away unless you kill him in 8 seconds or less which few classes have the DPS to do especially since to keep him there for 8 seconds they had to hold off their hard DPS and focus on timing low damage interrupts.The reason it seems like everyone is trying to kill you in 10 seconds is because they know the odds of their interrupts killing you is slim to none unless they are deep orange to red con to you. If you cant kill that scout with interrupts alone odds are your not killing him at all because the moment your out of interrupts thats the moment he starts his last evac before POOF. Also, honestly, even with really quick interrupts like the first move of the enchanters str line its not really that easy to interrupt someone even on a spell thats 3 seconds and it becomes even harder if your not just spamming an interrupt every 3 seconds. Trying to use visual cues to spot the evac THEN interrupt it is not something that your going to do a lot, maybe ever.Here is the real question. If its so easy to interrupt by a smart player with all their interrupts in mind then scouts must never manage to evac away from you right? So if I make a scout right now, raise him to your level, run up snowball you in the face and then start my evac you will stop me every time right?

Notsovilepriest
01-17-2008, 04:00 AM
Riddle me this then, If evasive actions don't put you in combat what does using Crosstrainers, or uses Evade put you into combat once it, As well as stealthing or invising. Non do damage to another player and they are all "Evasive Moves"

Notsovilepriest
01-17-2008, 04:03 AM
<cite>Psych wrote:</cite><blockquote>Telling someone to stop scout evac with an interrupt is like telling someone to try and stop any long cast time combat art with an interrupt because thats what it is, a long cast time combat art. Its ridiculous. Combat arts can only be interrupted by HARD interrupts and not a class in the game gets enough of them to stop a scout that really wants to get away unless you kill him in 8 seconds or less which few classes have the DPS to do especially since to keep him there for 8 seconds they had to hold off their hard DPS and focus on timing low damage interrupts.The reason it seems like everyone is trying to kill you in 10 seconds is because they know the odds of their interrupts killing you is slim to none unless they are deep orange to red con to you. If you cant kill that scout with interrupts alone odds are your not killing him at all because the moment your out of interrupts thats the moment he starts his last evac before POOF. Also, honestly, even with really quick interrupts like the first move of the enchanters str line its not really that easy to interrupt someone even on a spell thats 3 seconds and it becomes even harder if your not just spamming an interrupt every 3 seconds. Trying to use visual cues to spot the evac THEN interrupt it is not something that your going to do a lot, maybe ever.Here is the real question. If its so easy to interrupt by a smart player with all their interrupts in mind then scouts must never manage to evac away from you right? So if I make a scout right now, raise him to your level, run up snowball you in the face and then start my evac you will stop me every time right?</blockquote>If a hard interupt is a skill that says "Interupts Target", Those don't stop scout evac FYI, I have tried every way of stopping it and when I get the chance will post a fraps if people don't believe.

-Arctura-
01-17-2008, 04:09 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Riddle me this then, If evasive actions don't put you in combat what does using Crosstrainers, or uses Evade put you into combat once it, As well as stealthing or invising. Non do damage to another player and they are all "Evasive Moves"</blockquote>(( Crosstrainers have a chance to heal, healing is defensive in nature. Hence, locks you in combat.the Combat art 'evade' is a misnomer, it should be called 'trick' or 'blind', because it DIRECTLY affects another player (It forces them to drop their target).Forcing a player other than yourself to do anything is no longer in the realm of Passive non-combat abilities, Items with heal procs are un-doing damage done by other players, thus are defensive.

Aerlyn
01-17-2008, 10:55 AM
I think it's a pointless argument to attempt to take arbitrary words, such as "offensive", "defensive", "evasive", or "passive", and force all abilities to be classified by one of these.  We could all argue as much as we want about how each ability should be classified, according to how we feel it should be classified.  However, not all abilities will actually fit nicely into these arbitrary categories that we've picked.Healing is a good example.  Let's suppose we start off saying that healing is defensive.  Ok, but if we're trying to categorize these based on a vague feeling that we all have about what these words mean, then we might feel that healing doesn't quite fit.  To be defensive means to resist an attack.  A heal doesn't do anything to prevent an attack from happening.  A heal can only deal with the aftermath of an attack.  I think a better word to describe a heal would be "restorative".  Ok, so now we have 5 words: "offensive", "defensive", "evasive", "passive", and "restorative".  Oh wait, but what about wards?  Those actually do prevent damage.  But they don't stop the attack from occurring either.  Ok, maaaaybe wards go under the "defensive" category (oh please, let's not get into wards that end with a heal).  Then again, that's all just my opinion, and it's way too easy for everyone to disagree on details with there being no clear correct answer.I think it might be more useful to try to classify abilities by their in-game aspects (i.e. do they require casting, can they be used on an enemy, what character attributes do they affect).That being said, evac is one of the more quirky abilities, in that there aren't really a lot of similar abilities in the game to compare it with.Evac is an ability that requires casting.Evac is an ability that can only be used on yourself (or perhaps a group, depending on the type).It changes a character's position in the world.I'll try to list several abilities that seem similar to me:Evac (combat art)Evac (spell)Evac (item use)Call of [city]ZoneDruid TeleportWizard TeleportUlterean SpireUse Griffon, Carpet, Horse Station, Cloud, etc./campSummoning a mountRun speed buffsI realize that some of these are very similar, while some of these are very different.  Some of these, such as summoning a mount or run speed buffs, maybe shouldn't be considered in the same category as evac.I'm certainly not saying that all the abilities that I've listed here are the same or should be treated the same.  They're just all the abilities that I can think of that have an effect somewhat similar to evac.  Feel free to suggest adding or removing from this list.  (or completely ignore everything I'm saying because I'm full of it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />)

Aerlyn
01-17-2008, 11:13 AM
Here's my quick analysis of the list I posted previously:<span class="postbody">1. Evac (combat art)2. Evac (spell)3. Evac (item use)4. Call of [city]5. Zone6. Druid Teleport7. Wizard Teleport8. Ulterean Spire9. Use Griffon, Carpet, Horse Station, Cloud, etc.10. /camp</span><span class="postbody">11. Summoning a mount12. Run speed buffs</span><span class="postbody">1, 2, and 3 are the abilities in question here.4.  Call of [city]:  I don't really know whether this puts you in combat if you try to cast it while under attack5.  Zone:  You can zone out while under attack if you haven't engaged in combat6.  Druid Teleport:  I don't know for sure, but I'll guess that casting a druid portal spell might put you in combat.  However, I'll guess that using a druid portal that has already been created probably works just like zoning (#5), which would mean that it can be used while under attack, if you haven't already engaged.  (I'm speculating, as I don't think I've tried either of these).7.  Wizard Teleport:  I don't know how this works in regards to pvp8.  Ulterean Spire:  Unless it's been changed, I'm pretty sure that you can teleport up to KoS while under attack, if you're lucky enough to have the 5 minute counter reach zero while you're still alive.  I imagine that using the spire from inside a KoS zone will work just like #5.9.  Use Griffon, etc.:  You can use a griffon while under attack if you haven't engaged in combat.  Didn't this use to be different a long time ago?10.  /camp:  Your camp will be interrupted if you are attack, but that applies to pve as well as pvp.  This may not be a good comparison to evac.11.  Summoning a mount:  Last I knew, summoning a mount will puts you in combat.  Note: some mounts have resistance bonuses, giving them a combat advantage.12.  Run speed buff:  I believe casting these will put you in combat.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.</span>

Bozidar
01-17-2008, 11:32 AM
<p>It's way more simple than that.</p><p>If i am performing an action that will increase my chances of winning a fight:</p><p>removing an effect off of someone</p><p>heal/ward someone</p><p>debuff someone</p><p>buff an IN COMBAT attribute/skill/resistance of some kind (note that out-of-combat speed shouldnt apply)</p><p>In some other way shift the balance of hit points vs hit points (stabbing someone in the face, for example)</p><p>These things should put me into combat.  Only these things.  If i'm not trying to increase my chances of winning a fight, then i'm not really entering into combat now am I?</p><p>Evac sure as hell isn't engaging in combat.  Horses aren't engaging in combat.  Sow isn't engaging in combat.  Using a flipping INSIGNIA TOKEN isn't engaging in combat.</p>

Elephanton
01-17-2008, 12:05 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Horses aren't engaging in combat.  Sow isn't engaging in combat.</blockquote>Summoning horse or using SOW while under attack does put you in combat.

Lordrex
01-17-2008, 12:11 PM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't even summon horse after being attacked without being put in PVP combat.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why EVAC does not do the same thing then? How fair is that?</span></p><p>In my opinion,  EVAC should not work if you are already being attacked by an enemy.Just like every other defensive action out there, casting EVAC in this case should put you in combat and make EVAC not work.If you spot an enemy in advance, and decide to flee before they start hitting you - fine, you can do that.But, if you are already being attacked, sorry, all defensive actions used under attack must put you in combat.</p></blockquote><p>This thread is trash, your arguments are trash , point blank and done.</p><p>EVAC simply takes the scout and his party to a safe area,, It does no damage, it causes no harm to anyone.. If my armor procs,i enter combat, if i </p><p>attack you I enter combat, if i heal, get healed or fart loudly and it offends you im in combat.. </p><p>Why should being hit automaticly put both players in combat?  How many times have you as a pvp're got a shot in on a player and they ran, out </p><p>running you because you attacked and were put in combat and they didnt attack so they can still run full speed?</p><p>Now hows evac any difrent from that?  No player should be put into combat just cause someone hits them,, they should only be put into combat </p><p>if they heal, buff , debuff, attack ,,not decide to get the hell out of dodge.</p>

Aerlyn
01-17-2008, 12:20 PM
<cite>Lordrex wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>EVAC simply takes the scout and his party to a safe area,, It does no damage, it causes no harm to anyone.. If my armor procs,i enter combat, if i <p>attack you I enter combat, if i heal, get healed or fart loudly and it offends you im in combat.. </p><p>Why should being hit automaticly put both players in combat?  How many times have you as a pvp're got a shot in on a player and they ran, out </p><p>running you because you attacked and were put in combat and they didnt attack so they can still run full speed?</p><p>Now hows evac any difrent from that?  No player should be put into combat just cause someone hits them,, they should only be put into combat </p><p>if they heal, buff , debuff, attack ,,not decide to get the hell out of dodge.</p></blockquote>Eh, but I could say that a lot of other viable tactics for escaping a fight were taken away from people when the changes went in to make virtually everything cause you to be in combat.I talked about using a heal as a tactic for escaping a fight in this <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=403624#4520666" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">insane thread</a>.  The jist of it is that if a heal didn't put me in combat, then it would be a viable tactic for me to cast a heal  (or ward) on myself and run away.  That's my escape tactic.  However, that tactic isn't really useful anymore now that a heal or ward will put me in combat.  And that's fine...I'm not arguing that it shouldn't put me in combat.  And I could still try to run away, but I'd be in combat, running at in-combat speed.  What I'm saying here is that it's not always as clear cut as you make it sound.  It's not really that easy to decide whether an action is taken in order to enter combat or to get away from it.

BWLeeEllison
01-17-2008, 12:21 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( While we are at it, why dont we remove every classes passive non agressive defense or self-salvation abilities.....dont forgetbards get super fast runspeeddruids get Pact of cheetah sk get evac tooWheres the equality? ^_^and to the person who said make it 3-4 second cast time, its already 3 seconds.</blockquote><p>PoC puts you in combat if you are attacked first.</p><p>Sk has the perfect evac. It's interruptable and you cannot run while casting it. Scout evac should be this way. <b><span style="font-size: medium;">"Wheres the equality? ^_^"</span></b></p><p></p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">A shadow knight is not a scout.</span></b></p><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #0066ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed: </span>This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance.</b></span></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Not to be a spoil sport, but the same thing can be said in regards to other class evacs and to those using evac items.</span></b></p>

Aerlyn
01-17-2008, 12:31 PM
This idea occurred to me, so I'm just suggesting it in the spirit of brainstorming.  I'm certainly not attached to it:What if evac was only usable while stealthed?  Obviously this would mean that it would have to be changed so that it's usable after engaging in combat, since stealth currently causes you to engage.So as a scout you would kind of gain a little bit on what you have now.  You'd have a chance to cast evac while in combat even after engaging, whereas right now you cannot.As someone attacking a scout, you have maybe a better chance to interrupt them.  If you can take them out of stealth, then you basically disrupt their ability to evac.I would be concerned about how that might impact the pve use of evac.

Amphibia
01-17-2008, 12:35 PM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;color: #0066ff;"><b><span style="font-size: medium;">Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed: </span>This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance.</b></span></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: #0099ff;">Not to be a spoil sport, but the same thing can be said in regards to other class evacs and to those using evac items.</span></b></p></blockquote>Oh, stop quoting that worthless crap. This is a MMO game, things change. Classes gets balanced all the time to make the game overall better and more enjoyable for <i>as many players as possible.</i> If you can't understand why, just ask an economist ok? If you really want to play something that is static and unchanging, just buy an Xbox or something.

Bozidar
01-17-2008, 12:36 PM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Horses aren't engaging in combat.  Sow isn't engaging in combat.</blockquote>Summoning horse or using SOW while under attack does put you in combat.</blockquote>I get that.  My point is that it's not actually ENGAGING IN COMBAT.  It shouldn't put you into pvp combat.

Bozidar
01-17-2008, 12:39 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eh, but I could say that a lot of other viable tactics for escaping a fight were taken away from people when the changes went in to make virtually everything cause you to be in combat.I talked about using a heal as a tactic for escaping a fight in this <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=403624#4520666" target="_blank">insane thread</a>.  The jist of it is that if a heal didn't put me in combat, then it would be a viable tactic for me to cast a heal  (or ward) on myself and run away.  That's my escape tactic.  However, that tactic isn't really useful anymore now that a heal or ward will put me in combat.  And that's fine...I'm not arguing that it shouldn't put me in combat.  And I could still try to run away, but I'd be in combat, running at in-combat speed.  What I'm saying here is that it's not always as clear cut as you make it sound.  It's not really that easy to decide whether an action is taken in order to enter combat or to get away from it.</blockquote><p>A heal alters the fight, it shifts the HP balance in your direction.  It <i>should</i> engage you in pvp.</p><p>Evac does not alter the fight at all.  It's simply zoning out.  </p><p>Sow doesn't alter the fight at all, it allows you to run away faster (out of combat).  Same for a horse.</p><p>A heal or a cure is dramatically different than a zone out, or an alteration to your out-of-combat speed</p>

Drao
01-17-2008, 01:09 PM
<span class="postbody">Here is how it is EVAC DOES GET POEPLE KILLED! I am a conjuror so if i see the scout first which is rare. Im going to hit my planeshift throw up all of my pet buffs then fly well as soon as scouty sees me coming and sees hes not gonna get the first shot on me he evacs.........planeshift is down pet buffs are down communion is down. So now im [Removed for Content] as hell and he just runs from the evac spot to the general area of where i was finds me on track and kills me. Why, Becuase i blew everything i had to burn the scout down and he got a free evac off. You can say l2p or whatever you want but fact is i have THE MOST TOKENS on venekor of any other conjuror and its alllllllllllll solo. So i do know my class and know it very well. </span>

Amphibia
01-17-2008, 01:19 PM
<cite>Draoha wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">Here is how it is EVAC DOES GET POEPLE KILLED! I am a conjuror so if i see the scout first which is rare. Im going to hit my planeshift throw up all of my pet buffs then fly well as soon as scouty sees me coming and sees hes not gonna get the first shot on me he evacs.........planeshift is down pet buffs are down communion is down. So now im [Removed for Content] as hell and he just runs from the evac spot to the general area of where i was finds me on track and kills me. Why, Becuase i blew everything i had to burn the scout down and he got a free evac off. You can say l2p or whatever you want but fact is i have THE MOST TOKENS on venekor of any other conjuror and its alllllllllllll solo. So i do know my class and know it very well. </span> </blockquote>Yup, that is basically how it works. They have all odds in their favor to find you and get the jump. If they somehow fail at that, they'll just press evac and find you again. Since their version of that ability is pretty close to uninterruptable <b>and</b> can be cast after getting hit, they can just get you to you burn your best spells for nothing, or allow you to bring them down to yellow before they evac just to rub it in. Then they'll come back to get you. But of course, everything is perfectly balanced and nobody needs to get nerfed. The scouts say so... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Aerlyn
01-17-2008, 01:55 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Eh, but I could say that a lot of other viable tactics for escaping a fight were taken away from people when the changes went in to make virtually everything cause you to be in combat.I talked about using a heal as a tactic for escaping a fight in this <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=403624#4520666" target="_blank">insane thread</a>.  The jist of it is that if a heal didn't put me in combat, then it would be a viable tactic for me to cast a heal  (or ward) on myself and run away.  That's my escape tactic.  However, that tactic isn't really useful anymore now that a heal or ward will put me in combat.  And that's fine...I'm not arguing that it shouldn't put me in combat.  And I could still try to run away, but I'd be in combat, running at in-combat speed.  What I'm saying here is that it's not always as clear cut as you make it sound.  It's not really that easy to decide whether an action is taken in order to enter combat or to get away from it.</blockquote><p>A heal alters the fight, it shifts the HP balance in your direction.  It <i>should</i> engage you in pvp.</p><p>Evac does not alter the fight at all.  It's simply zoning out.  </p><p>Sow doesn't alter the fight at all, it allows you to run away faster (out of combat).  Same for a horse.</p><p>A heal or a cure is dramatically different than a zone out, or an alteration to your out-of-combat speed</p></blockquote>I don't see it officially stated anywhere that because I use something that alters my hit points that I <i>should</i> then be engaged in pvp.I don't see it officially stated anywhere that because something only affects my movement speed that I <i>shouldn't</i> be engaged in pvp.Edited to expand on my argument.You're not saying anything new here.  All you're doing is making a statement, so I don't really have anything to say.  I guess we disagree.  I could just repeat my statement again, but there's no point.  Instead I'll just make the above comments, meaning that nothing is set in stone.

Elephanton
01-17-2008, 01:59 PM
<p><span style="font-size: small;">Draoha, Amphibia - I agree with you.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">This is yet another OP benefit EVAC provides, have your opponent use all long-recast spells and items on you, EVAC, then come back and pwn him ez-mode.And this is exactly why casting EVAC while being attacked should make EVAC not work, and put caster in combat.</span></p>

Bozidar
01-17-2008, 04:29 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see it officially stated anywhere that because I use something that alters my hit points that I <i>should</i> then be engaged in pvp.I don't see it officially stated anywhere that because something only affects my movement speed that I <i>shouldn't</i> be engaged in pvp.Edited to expand on my argument.You're not saying anything new here.  All you're doing is making a statement, so I don't really have anything to say.  I guess we disagree.  I could just repeat my statement again, but there's no point.  Instead I'll just make the above comments, meaning that nothing is set in stone.</blockquote><p>I'm not talking about anything official.  I'm talking about logic and reason here.  The official statement is for all intents and purposes "This is how evac works.  We get it, some of you like to whine about it.  We're willing to accept that, because now that you can no longer evac once you've engaged in pvp we think it's working well enough".  That's not on any press release, but that's what their actions say.</p><p>Obviously nothing is set in stone, but that's kind of why we debate these issues, isn't it?  That's why my argument is that things that dont affect the outcome of a fight where both parties are engaged, shouldn't put you into combat.</p>

Bozidar
01-17-2008, 04:33 PM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;">Draoha, Amphibia - I agree with you.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;">This is yet another OP benefit EVAC provides, have your opponent use all long-recast spells and items on you, EVAC, then come back and pwn him ez-mode.And this is exactly why casting EVAC while being attacked should make EVAC not work, and put caster in combat.</span></p></blockquote><p>It's no different than zoning.  You can use all your stuff on a guy, and he just zones or carpet/cloud/horse/griffs away.  Then he comes down and yer HT or something else is down.  You made a tactical error, your bad.</p><p>Last night we jumped 2 red scouts, chased one away from the other and forced both to use their evac.  We ran to their evac point and caught one of them trying to get to the zone.  Killed him, and used our important stuff in that fight when we knew he didnt have an easy zone-out in his pocket.</p><p>Tactics.. </p><p>For the record, i've suggested before that we give the summoner and/or chanter classes a new professional skill called Dimensional Anchor, which for at least a short duration will prevent zoning.  We can debate the recast, casting time, castontherun, and all the other bull till we're blue in the face, but this would be a pvp only ability which will be a good balance for the evac classes AND FOR ZONE HUGGERS.</p>

-Arctura-
01-17-2008, 04:43 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>It's no different than zoning.  You can use all your stuff on a guy, and he just zones or carpet/cloud/horse/griffs away.  Then he comes down and yer HT or something else is down.  You made a tactical error, your bad.</p><p>Last night we jumped 2 red scouts, chased one away from the other and forced both to use their evac.  We ran to their evac point and caught one of them trying to get to the zone.  Killed him, and used our important stuff in that fight when we knew he didnt have an easy zone-out in his pocket.</p><p>Tactics.. </p><p>For the record, i've suggested before that we give the summoner and/or chanter classes a new professional skill called Dimensional Anchor, which for at least a short duration will prevent zoning.  We can debate the recast, casting time, castontherun, and all the other bull till we're blue in the face, but this would be a pvp only ability which will be a good balance for the evac classes AND FOR ZONE HUGGERS.</p></blockquote>(( He is wise.See, i evac like a mad man, but that Dimensional Anchor bit sounds COOL!WHY? because its ADDING to the game ----> Adding more dynamics and/or elements of tactics.YES.

MokiCh
01-17-2008, 09:53 PM
<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Draoha wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">Here is how it is EVAC DOES GET POEPLE KILLED! I am a conjuror so if i see the scout first which is rare. Im going to hit my planeshift throw up all of my pet buffs then fly well as soon as scouty sees me coming and sees hes not gonna get the first shot on me he evacs.........planeshift is down pet buffs are down communion is down. So now im [Removed for Content] as hell and he just runs from the evac spot to the general area of where i was finds me on track and kills me. Why, Becuase i blew everything i had to burn the scout down and he got a free evac off. You can say l2p or whatever you want but fact is i have THE MOST TOKENS on venekor of any other conjuror and its alllllllllllll solo. So i do know my class and know it very well. </span> </blockquote>Yup, that is basically how it works. They have all odds in their favor to find you and get the jump. If they somehow fail at that, they'll just press evac and find you again. Since their version of that ability is pretty close to uninterruptable <b>and</b> can be cast after getting hit, they can just get you to you burn your best spells for nothing, or allow you to bring them down to yellow before they evac just to rub it in. Then they'll come back to get you. But of course, everything is perfectly balanced and nobody needs to get nerfed. The scouts say so... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>So it's the fault of the evac ability that someone frontloaded all of his big hitters and pet buffs and then got his face put in when all his timers are still counting down? I'm sorry, I feel for summoners, and I feel for chanters because I play one, but nobody should get nerfed just because some genius goes ahead and frontloads all of his big hitters. That's like an Assassin complaining about how he tried to kill someone with decapitate, but they evaced so now decap is down. Something tells me you wouldn't be half as sympathetic to his plight though. In all of these multi-page multi-thread discussions, all the people crying about evac have yet to bring up a reasonable, credible argument for disabling evac as soon as you get hit, beyond "it's not fair". Well, no, it isn't. I'm sorry. Have a tissue. It's not fair the same way it's not fair that healers can heal through all sorts of crazy burst dps and then just melee a scout to death when his timers are down. It's not fair the same way tanks mitigate or just flat out dodge a large amount of your burst dps and, again, kick your butt once your timers are down. We have different classes that are good at different things in this game, and it's not always going to be a fair fight. If my guardian goes and attacks your warden 1 on 1, chances are I'll loose. Is it fair? No, but you deal with it because that's what makes the game work on a scale beyond a 1 on 1 pvp situation. The reason we have classes is so that the game can be more dynamic, and the reason it becomes more dynamic is that some classes get things, or are better at certain things, that other classes don't get or don't do as well. Tracking is already next to useless in PvP, so take away evac and you go and kill off that dynamic element. A warlock can put out several times the dps of a single scout in a group pvp fight, so why would anyone want a scout anymore if the two main reasons they were desirable are gone? Track is already gone for all intents and purposes, so if evac goes along with it, why would I as a group leader want a scout in my group when I could have a warlock instead?

Notsovilepriest
01-17-2008, 11:57 PM
Alright, So the 2 defense for evac are 1. Stop it (Can Only be Done by Mez)2. Kill them faster, but don't pop all your timers to do so? Do you see a problem with this picture yet?

Badaxe Ba
01-18-2008, 02:14 AM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>It's no different than zoning.  You can use all your stuff on a guy, and he just zones or carpet/cloud/horse/griffs away.  Then he comes down and yer HT or something else is down.  You made a tactical error, your bad.</p><p>Last night we jumped 2 red scouts, chased one away from the other and forced both to use their evac.  We ran to their evac point and caught one of them trying to get to the zone.  Killed him, and used our important stuff in that fight when we knew he didnt have an easy zone-out in his pocket.</p><p>Tactics.. </p><p>For the record, i've suggested before that we give the summoner and/or chanter classes a new professional skill called Dimensional Anchor, which for at least a short duration will prevent zoning.  We can debate the recast, casting time, castontherun, and all the other bull till we're blue in the face, but this would be a pvp only ability which will be a good balance for the evac classes AND FOR ZONE HUGGERS.</p></blockquote>(( He is wise.See, i evac like a mad man, but that Dimensional Anchor bit sounds COOL!WHY? because its ADDING to the game ----> Adding more dynamics and/or elements of tactics.YES.</blockquote><p>I was considering several ideas that would bring improvement and balance without being a nerf, while giving non-evac classes a similar chance to escape like evac classes can.  Is it unfair?  Hard to say, when everyone who has played any length of time whatsoever, knows well what each class can do, yet chose the non-evac class to play.</p><p>Adding a new pvp only skill while not a bad idea would probably result in the other classes screaming for something special too, sadly.</p><p>Something simple, with an easy to implement design for Devs to put in.</p><p>The best I could come up with is the idea to redo the timer on Call to Home.  </p><p>I've always felt even from my PvE days that this spell really had no reason to take so long to cast.  Heck, give it the same in every way possible as a scout class' Evac.  Cast time, renew time, everything.  You just can't take your whole group with you though.  This will at least leave the scout class one benefit for having the ability to Evac.  It (evac) keeps you in zone, and can tranport your group.</p><p>Call to home with a 3 second cast time for everyone, on a 15 minute timer.  What do you think?</p>

keLston
01-18-2008, 02:48 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright, So the 2 defense for evac are 1. Stop it (Can Only be Done by Mez)2. Kill them faster, but don't pop all your timers to do so? Do you see a problem with this picture yet?</blockquote>Why is this a problem? You could do that with every other ability in the game?For healing:1. Stop it2. Kill them faster.For manashield:1. Dispel it.2. Kill them faster.For running:1. Stop it2. Kill them fasterI fail to see what you're trying to say about evac. Are you saying you shouldn't have to counter other class abilities in PvP?

Amphibia
01-18-2008, 03:39 AM
<cite>MokiChan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Draoha wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">Here is how it is EVAC DOES GET POEPLE KILLED! I am a conjuror so if i see the scout first which is rare. Im going to hit my planeshift throw up all of my pet buffs then fly well as soon as scouty sees me coming and sees hes not gonna get the first shot on me he evacs.........planeshift is down pet buffs are down communion is down. So now im [Removed for Content] as hell and he just runs from the evac spot to the general area of where i was finds me on track and kills me. Why, Becuase i blew everything i had to burn the scout down and he got a free evac off. You can say l2p or whatever you want but fact is i have THE MOST TOKENS on venekor of any other conjuror and its alllllllllllll solo. So i do know my class and know it very well. </span> </blockquote>Yup, that is basically how it works. They have all odds in their favor to find you and get the jump. If they somehow fail at that, they'll just press evac and find you again. Since their version of that ability is pretty close to uninterruptable <b>and</b> can be cast after getting hit, they can just get you to you burn your best spells for nothing, or allow you to bring them down to yellow before they evac just to rub it in. Then they'll come back to get you. But of course, everything is perfectly balanced and nobody needs to get nerfed. The scouts say so... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>So it's the fault of the evac ability that someone frontloaded all of his big hitters and pet buffs and then got his face put in when all his timers are still counting down? I'm sorry, I feel for summoners, and I feel for chanters because I play one, but nobody should get nerfed just because some genius goes ahead and frontloads all of his big hitters. That's like an Assassin complaining about how he tried to kill someone with decapitate, but they evaced so now decap is down. Something tells me you wouldn't be half as sympathetic to his plight though. <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b><span style="color: #3366ff;">The guy in this example plays a c</span></b><span style="color: #3366ff;"><b>onjurer.</b></span><b><span style="color: #3366ff;"> How much choice do you really think he has when he's up against a scout? They'll knock him over in less than 3 seconds! His only hope is to launch everything he's got. Summoners have nice DPS when they get the ball rolling, but the scout will just evac if he sees there is a chance he might lose. And with track he can always find that person again a little later. You guys get so many chances it's just ridiculous. A summoner hardly gets any. Let's be completely honest here for a minute, aren't most active PvP'ers scouts right now? Don't you think there is a reason for that?</span></b></span>In all of these multi-page multi-thread discussions, all the people crying about evac have yet to bring up a reasonable, credible argument for disabling evac as soon as you get hit, beyond "it's not fair". <span style="color: #9900ff;"><b><span style="color: #3366ff;">I couldn't disagree more strongly. I think many reasonable and credible arguments has been brought up - by many of the posters here. I tried to sum it up, but one that I didn't mention is that it also leads to less actual PvP, because everyone (this includes groups) just evacs these days if there is any slight chance of losing or they felt they got jumped. This is nothing but a gank & run game right now, and that is only fun for the gank & run classes. Maybe the title system is a bigger problem than uninterruptable evacs, though...</span></b></span>Well, no, it isn't. I'm sorry. Have a tissue. It's not fair the same way it's not fair that healers can heal through all sorts of crazy burst dps and then just melee a scout to death when his timers are down. It's not fair the same way tanks mitigate or just flat out dodge a large amount of your burst dps and, again, kick your butt once your timers are down. We have different classes that are good at different things in this game, and it's not always going to be a fair fight. If my guardian goes and attacks your warden 1 on 1, chances are I'll loose. Is it fair? No, but you deal with it because that's what makes the game work on a scale beyond a 1 on 1 pvp situation. <span style="color: #3366ff;"></span><span style="color: #9900ff;"><b><span style="color: #3366ff;">A lot of classes get no choice in the matter. That is partly the problem. Those classes have no choice but to fight because running is usually futile. You can't cure a snare off without being locked into combat. You can't pop PoC or use any other measures to help yourself or slow them down without being locked into combat. Your evac should be no different. If you stand around and wait to get hit, evac should be greyed out and you should have to attempt running away like the rest of us. ORThey could make the lockets more useful of course... make them difficult to interrupt, take away the lore tag and instead sell as stack of 5 or 10, make it teleport only within the zone, lower the recast time to 15 minutes (to match your recast timer) and lower the status cost substantially. Either that, or just give all classes this ability already and get it over with.But that would only lead to <i>even more</i> evac'ing and less fighting. So it would probably be a really bad idea. Why does everyone think they have some kind of right to get away every time they don't feel like fighting? Why are we even talking about all these stupid, ridiculous escape abilites when we should have been talking about combat abilities? But the evac threads fill up the boards, there are 3 running right now... I think that in itself is a very strong signal that something is wrong with it. </span></b></span>The reason we have classes is so that the game can be more dynamic, and the reason it becomes more dynamic is that some classes get things, or are better at certain things, that other classes don't get or don't do as well. Tracking is already next to useless in PvP, so take away evac and you go and kill off that dynamic element. <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b><span style="color: #3366ff;">So track is useless, yeah? I took your post seriously up to this point. You got to be kidding. It is hands down the best PvP tool in the entire game. Why do you need both<i> that</i> and uninterrupable evac? The truth is, you don't. You can always keep an eye on the tracking list and evac before they get to you if you really, really don't feel like sticking around. The rest of us will still fight or try to run, and probably die in the attempt. </span></b></span>A warlock can put out several times the dps of a single scout in a group pvp fight, so why would anyone want a scout anymore if the two main reasons they were desirable are gone? Track is already gone for all intents and purposes, so if evac goes along with it, why would I as a group leader want a scout in my group when I could have a warlock instead?<span style="color: #3366ff;"><b><span>We would want scouts for tracking. A group is never complete without at least one scout, but more is also nice because you put out very, very nice DPS. A ranger can do this outside taunt range too, which makes them very useful in group vs group situations. Tracking is not gone, and you know it. Please don't lie about, ok? We both know it isn't true, and so does everyone else. But if you really think it is just not good enough, feel free to start a new thread about it. I'll actually back you up, because I agree that you should have this ability and it should be very useful. I don't care if it is unfair, because it generally leads to more PvP and gives scouts a very defined and necessary role in groups. If it was up to me, I'd add PvP rewards to boost it even. Or just use the /feedback command in the game. They might listen. But this thread is about evac, not track. </span></b></span></blockquote><span style="color: #cc0000;"><b><span style="color: #3366ff;">Replies are in blue. </span></b></span>

Sorffats
01-18-2008, 04:24 AM
I don't know if I'd agree with completely removing evac if you haven't engaged in combat.  But I will say that I agree that if you evac while having a dot, control effect (root, snare, etc.), debuff, etc. on you, it should put you into combat and give you the "no zoning" timer.   The others were correct in that even casting a mount while having a pvp combat effect on you will throw you into combat.

KannaWhoopass
01-18-2008, 04:29 AM
<p>I can tell you why the zones are empty , and solo PvP is in a pathetic state , and why these posts are as long as they are. </p><p>1) A new expansion was just released , with a blazingly stupid volume of solo content, which made in almost impossible for groups to stay on the same parts , and so small duo and trios would make up alot of the groups. (This favored scouts)</p><p>2)The zones are large , with bird paths which run zig zag across them , this allows a scout , to fly with track window open and in a short time sweep the whole zone while flying on the bird . 90% of a zone can be covered by scouts from total safety while on a bird. </p><p>3)With the large zones it was easy to find people sooo far from a zone line that , a runing escape is almost impossible , most zones lines would be beyond a full power sprint.(favors scouts)</p><p>So what you end up with , are a mass of angry players , who have spent the better part of 2 months being ganked , by scouts , while questing. </p><p>Most of these players had little chance of escape because of what was mentioned above, and no chance of revenge because of the evac , and tracking of the scout class. </p><p>This Expansion is so far slanted in a scouts favor , that the non scout PvP population has had enough . </p><p>That is why with the current zone design , and almost forced solo questing .. flying tracking , gps tracking , being able to be soo small that even with totems , you cant see a stealthed scout anyhow . But tracking can see everything regardless of size. </p><p>Players want balance, the latest complaints about evac and tracking , are in the current game totally justified. This isnt KoS where a jump from a cliff 10 feet away might save a PvP death . There are not portal zones or cloud pads every 40 feet away , or Raid instance zone lines everywhere.  </p><p>In those places if a 65% runspeed scout were to start comming at you , you could run away .. or at least try. Here there is no run , there is no place to go , you are a sitting duck in the middle of massive zones.   Even if you make it to a post to fly the 2 or 3 second wait to fly is easy to interupt by scouts with 1 second or .5 second attacks . but near impossible for the 2 and 3 or more attack speed classes . </p><p>But the kicker as mentioned in the post is .. even with all of these things in favor of scouts , if you do find one ,  catch one , root or snare one , poof scout gone.</p><p>But you are rewarded 8 min later with a death at the hands of that same player , who track locked you , waited out of vision range while shrunk down to the size of an ant, for you to engage a mob , and because most other classes while fighting ,, have heals , or wards , or defensive buffs on while attacking,, only need to stoot 1 arrow to lock their target into a fight .. </p><p>Is there really any scout who is surprised that these posts exist , in the current game environment?</p><p>Im not surprised at all , and im not surprised you dont see much solo pvp , and im not surprised that from a PvP server perspective this expansion is seen as a flop .. </p><p>The overwhelming scout PvP advantage is part of it .. and should be addressed </p>

Sorffats
01-18-2008, 05:05 AM
I do agree about the fly by tracking on sokokar, griffons, clouds, etc.   Maybe pvp tracking should be completely disabled if you are on a game directed travel mount (sokokar, griffon, cloud, etc.).    However, that would come with some bad as well.  Knowing that tracking is disabled on a game directed travel mount, groups will pile up at start/end flight paths to gank anyone coming in.   If it were possible, maybe the track window should just show as blank unless they are within a specific distance from a start/end flight path.   That way, trackers wouldn't be able to see entire zones simply by flying all over the zone, but would be able to be warned if a x4 is standing guard over a sokokar post, cloud platform, carpet, or griffon tower.

keLston
01-18-2008, 05:10 AM
Then maybe you should be complaining about zone design rather than a Scout ability no? Because clearly, you're stating Scouts were not so advantaged pre-expansion. And maybe you should be complaining about the exploitation of the shrink mechanic (which I totally agree with and refuse to use despite having the option to do so) rather than Scout abilities. After all, an invisible mage could do the same, no? Shrink to the size of an ant and cast fission, and they don't even have to run up to melee range to do it! Or maybe you should complain about the title and PvP reward system favoring solo ganking.Sounds like a game problem, not a Scout problem.Why not ask for fixes to the game or weak classes rather than demanding that everyone be made equally miserable? If you need a hammer and don't have one but all your neighbors do, you buy a hammer, you don't break off everyone's arms so they can't use hammers.

Amphibia
01-18-2008, 05:17 AM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sounds like a game problem, not a Scout problem.Why not ask for fixes to the game or weak classes rather than demanding that everyone be made equally miserable? If you need a hammer and don't have one but all your neighbors do, you buy a hammer, you don't break off everyone's arms so they can't use hammers.</blockquote>Translation:Everyone should just dump that stupid mage, fighter, priest or whatever it is they're playing and roll a scout today.

Notsovilepriest
01-18-2008, 05:26 AM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then maybe you should be complaining about zone design rather than a Scout ability no? Because clearly, you're stating Scouts were not so advantaged pre-expansion. And maybe you should be complaining about the exploitation of the shrink mechanic (which I totally agree with and refuse to use despite having the option to do so) rather than Scout abilities. After all, an invisible mage could do the same, no? Shrink to the size of an ant and cast fission, and they don't even have to run up to melee range to do it! Or maybe you should complain about the title and PvP reward system favoring solo ganking.Sounds like a game problem, not a Scout problem.Why not ask for fixes to the game or weak classes rather than demanding that everyone be made equally miserable? If you need a hammer and don't have one but all your neighbors do, you buy a hammer, you don't break off everyone's arms so they can't use hammers.</blockquote>Alright I'll give it a try!Dear SOE,Here is a list of things I would like you to do1. Fix the shaman and Summoner Classes in PvP2. Fix Resist Rates.3. Make Scout Evac Interuptable4. Reduce Duration of Warden RootsThere is probally more, that is what I can think of off the top of my head,Your friend,

Sorffats
01-18-2008, 05:27 AM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then maybe you should be complaining about zone design rather than a Scout ability no? Because clearly, you're stating Scouts were not so advantaged pre-expansion. And maybe you should be complaining about the exploitation of the shrink mechanic (which I totally agree with and refuse to use despite having the option to do so) rather than Scout abilities. After all, an invisible mage could do the same, no? Shrink to the size of an ant and cast fission, and they don't even have to run up to melee range to do it! Or maybe you should complain about the title and PvP reward system favoring solo ganking.Sounds like a game problem, not a Scout problem.Why not ask for fixes to the game or weak classes rather than demanding that everyone be made equally miserable? If you need a hammer and don't have one but all your neighbors do, you buy a hammer, you don't break off everyone's arms so they can't use hammers.</blockquote><p>Spoken like a true scout.  ;p</p><p>Seriously though, I don't think zone design is really the problem.  I just think that some things, whether intentional or not, make scout classes too over powered in pvp.  I mean, all you have to do is think about the daily routine for pvping.   What class type is best for solo pvp?  Answer:  Scout.   What classes does every pvp group look for to include in their group?  Answer(s):  1st, tracker; 2nd, healer; 3rd dps (scout can fill this spot too).  What class type has the most pvp complaints about?  Answer: Scout.   What class type outshines any other class in pvp?  Answer:  Scout.   The Q & A can keep going on, and the answer will almost always be the same.</p><p>Personally, I'm not one of those "take evac out of pvp" persons.  I do think that it should be changed to where if you have some kind of combat effect on you (dot, debuff, root, snare, etc.) that it should put the scout in combat and give them the "no zoning" timer once they have evac'd.   I also think that tracking should be done more in a way that is consistent with actual tracking.  It shouldn't put a big X on your map showing you exactly where a target is, rather it just give you directional information.   The scout will still be able to see people in track range in the track window, but won't be able to just pop open their map and see exactly where they are.   Instead, they should just receive the message spam, "the target you are tracking is somewhere to the north east and above you" etc.   As a scout, you are a tracker, not a crystal ball seer.</p><p>**edited for spelling (it is nearly 3am, ;p)</p>

-Arctura-
01-18-2008, 05:38 AM
<i><b>Mokichan wrote</b></i>:<span style="color: #cc0000;"><i><span style="color: #ff0000;"><b><span class="postbody"> all the people crying about evac have yet to bring up a reasonable, credible argument for disabling evac as soon as you get hit, beyond "it's not fair". Well, no, it isn't. I'm sorry. Have a tissue. It's not fair the same way it's not fair that healers can heal through all sorts of crazy burst dps and then just melee a scout to death when his timers are down. It's not fair the same way tanks mitigate or just flat out dodge a large amount of your burst dps and, again, kick your butt once your timers are down. We have different classes that are good at different things in this game, and it's not always going to be a fair fight.</span></b></span></i></span>Well said. Dont forget how unfair wards are... just completely unfair *winks*<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><span style="color: #9900ff;"><b><span style="color: #3366ff;"> But the evac threads fill up the boards, there are 3 running right now... I think that in itself is a very strong signal that something is wrong with it. </span></b></span></blockquote><span style="color: #cc0000;"><b></b></span></blockquote>((<u> its a strong signal that the same 3-4 people keep starting threads about evac</u> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />  (And the same 6-7 people keep replying to them, making them multi-page discussions.<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> (some assumedly logged in on multiple accounts they own to make the arguments seem more prevalent a topic than they really are) (or on the only accounts they have left after being suspended on others hehe)</span>Seriously, go count the individual login names of the people for and against it in each thread. Its actually a very small number on both sides, and every other post argues the previous, so we can see its quite a split. (else the threads would be short and succinct with 1-2 pages of 'yeah thats right', instead of 8-9 of debating <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />A strong signal that the vocal minority in the forums is passionate about a hot topic is all that indicates, on both sides.

Amphibia
01-18-2008, 06:31 AM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><blockquote><span style="color: #9900ff;"><b><span style="color: #3366ff;"> But the evac threads fill up the boards, there are 3 running right now... I think that in itself is a very strong signal that something is wrong with it. </span></b></span></blockquote><span style="color: #cc0000;"><b></b></span></blockquote>((<u> its a strong signal that the same 3-4 people keep starting threads about evac</u> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />  (And the same 6-7 people keep replying to them, making them multi-page discussions.<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> (some assumedly logged in on multiple accounts they own to make the arguments seem more prevalent a topic than they really are) (or on the only accounts they have left after being suspended on others hehe)<span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>Even if you're right and someone did in fact do it, it is quite ridiculous to use that in an attempt to invalidate the discussion by making it sound like it is a common thing in here. Most people have only one account. </b></span></span>Seriously, go count the individual login names of the people for and against it in each thread. Its actually a very small number on both sides, and every other post argues the previous, so we can see its quite a split. (else the threads would be short and succinct with 1-2 pages of 'yeah thats right', instead of 8-9 of debating <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />A strong signal that the vocal minority in the forums is passionate about a hot topic is all that indicates, on both sides.</blockquote>Everyone knows that the majority of players don't post on the forums, but it is <i>possible</i> that the opinions you see here reflect the general opinions in the player base to some degree. I can't prove that, of course. But these forums and the /feedback command in game are the tools players have to provide feedback to the developers, and they are used as such. Whether or not opinions and discussions that take place here should be taken into consideration or not is up to the developers, not us. You are one of those 3-4 people who start threads, btw. But I think all the threads about evac issues have different authors. And since you so adamantly claim that only 8-9 people post in these threads, I took you on your word and counted them. I found that 51 different people have participated in these 3 evac threads, not 8-9. Oops... was that yet another "mistake", Arctura?

keLston
01-18-2008, 06:36 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then maybe you should be complaining about zone design rather than a Scout ability no? Because clearly, you're stating Scouts were not so advantaged pre-expansion. And maybe you should be complaining about the exploitation of the shrink mechanic (which I totally agree with and refuse to use despite having the option to do so) rather than Scout abilities. After all, an invisible mage could do the same, no? Shrink to the size of an ant and cast fission, and they don't even have to run up to melee range to do it! Or maybe you should complain about the title and PvP reward system favoring solo ganking.Sounds like a game problem, not a Scout problem.Why not ask for fixes to the game or weak classes rather than demanding that everyone be made equally miserable? If you need a hammer and don't have one but all your neighbors do, you buy a hammer, you don't break off everyone's arms so they can't use hammers.</blockquote><p>Spoken like a true scout.  ;p</p><p>Seriously though, I don't think zone design is really the problem.  I just think that some things, whether intentional or not, make scout classes too over powered in pvp.  I mean, all you have to do is think about the daily routine for pvping.   What class type is best for solo pvp?  Answer:  Scout.   What classes does every pvp group look for to include in their group?  Answer(s):  1st, tracker; 2nd, healer; 3rd dps (scout can fill this spot too).  What class type has the most pvp complaints about?  Answer: Scout.   What class type outshines any other class in pvp?  Answer:  Scout.   The Q & A can keep going on, and the answer will almost always be the same.</p><p>Personally, I'm not one of those "take evac out of pvp" persons.  I do think that it should be changed to where if you have some kind of combat effect on you (dot, debuff, root, snare, etc.) that it should put the scout in combat and give them the "no zoning" timer once they have evac'd.   I also think that tracking should be done more in a way that is consistent with actual tracking.  It shouldn't put a big X on your map showing you exactly where a target is, rather it just give you directional information.   The scout will still be able to see people in track range in the track window, but won't be able to just pop open their map and see exactly where they are.   Instead, they should just receive the message spam, "the target you are tracking is somewhere to the north east and above you" etc.   As a scout, you are a tracker, not a crystal ball seer.</p><p>**edited for spelling (it is nearly 3am, ;p)</p></blockquote>But this is untrue.Why does a group forming require tracking? Because they want to be able to find people to kill. That's a zone design problem. Too large a zone with key areas too spread out and you're faced with the need to be able to find a way to cover more area. Fix zone design and why would you need a tracker unless you're a gank squad that evacs at the first sign of competition. A game shouldn't be balanced around grief squads.So you have healer, a Scout can't. And then you have DPS. A warlock provides better group v group DPS than a Scout would. People have conceded that fact. The only reason you take a Scout DPS is because you need tracking. If zones were designed better, you wouldn't need tracking and then you'd get the better DPSer, maybe even two!Why are Scouts getting so many complaints lodged against them? Because of the title system. As it stands, solo ganking is infinitely more rewarding than grouping because of the amount of killing you would need to do as a group to equal a ganking Scout. So what if you fixed that? Suddenly you would have incentive to group and a scout vs group is not a fight the scout wins.So again, sounds like a game problem, not a scout problem.<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>And since you so adamantly claim that only 8-9 people post in these threads, I took you on your word and counted them. I found that 51 different people have participated in these 3 evac threads, not 8-9. Oops... was that yet another "mistake", Arctura? </blockquote>And how many of each sided with which side? Are you here to troll as you normally do or actually particpate? As it stands, you seem to merely be trolling. But if you're not, then I suppose you believe 51 people actually represent the whole playerbase.

Amphibia
01-18-2008, 07:00 AM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>And since you so adamantly claim that only 8-9 people post in these threads, I took you on your word and counted them. I found that 51 different people have participated in these 3 evac threads, not 8-9. Oops... was that yet another "mistake", Arctura? </blockquote>And how many of each sided with which side? Are you here to troll as you normally do or actually particpate? As it stands, you seem to merely be trolling. But if you're not, then I suppose you believe 51 people actually represent the whole playerbase.</blockquote>Call it whatever you like, I don't care. I didn't check closely how many were for, against or indifferent... just the number of people who have participated in the 3 active threads regarding evac. As I also stated in previous post, I am perfectly aware that the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but I suggested the possibility that the opinions expressed here, on EQ2 Flames and via /feedback may reflect popular opinions among the players to some degree. I guess you missed that.... Anyway - when presenting an argument that involves numbers or facts, one should at least<i> try</i> to make it right. Unless, of course, it is ones <i>intention</i> to present false numbers or facts<i>.</i>...

Bloodfa
01-18-2008, 03:50 PM
<p>May I make a suggestion to everybody involved in every single anti-scout thread?  There are a couple of common topics that are brought up ad nauseum.  Scouts have Tracking.  Scouts have Evac.  Scouts are the best soloers (although not as good as Wardens).  Whether it is believed or not doesn't matter, the odds of changing the opinion of someone diametrically opposed to your point of view via an online discussion are pretty much as good as Jessica Alba walking up to my wife and telling her I'm the father of her baby.  So I propose that everybody simmer down for a few weeks.  Specifically, until the PvP writs are out and given a shot.  No more gripes about Scouts after that, I'm willing to bet, unless it's the typical " ... and then they evacced away from us" ones.  The writs are going to give out tokens to <b>the entire group, evenly</b>.  And no more tokens for body drops.  Don't you think that's going to make it a little more difficult for <i>anybody</i> to solo?  Group PvP isn't going to be an abberation, or just a freak thing when one side has had enough of the other and groups up, it'll be planned on a broader scale.</p>

BWLeeEllison
01-18-2008, 04:08 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>May I make a suggestion to everybody involved in every single anti-scout thread?  There are a couple of common topics that are brought up ad nauseum.  Scouts have Tracking.  Scouts have Evac.  Scouts are the best soloers (although not as good as Wardens).  Whether it is believed or not doesn't matter, the odds of changing the opinion of someone diametrically opposed to your point of view via an online discussion are pretty much as good as Jessica Alba walking up to my wife and telling her I'm the father of her baby.  So I propose that everybody simmer down for a few weeks.  Specifically, until the PvP writs are out and given a shot.  No more gripes about Scouts after that, I'm willing to bet, unless it's the typical " ... and then they evacced away from us" ones.  The writs are going to give out tokens to <b>the entire group, evenly</b>.  And no more tokens for body drops.  Don't you think that's going to make it a little more difficult for <i>anybody</i> to solo?  Group PvP isn't going to be an abberation, or just a freak thing when one side has had enough of the other and groups up, it'll be planned on a broader scale.</p></blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Amen.  Why be an anti-scout activist on the forums when you can be an anti-scout insurgent in the game.</span></b>

Bozidar
01-18-2008, 05:02 PM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Amen.  Why be an anti-scout activist on the forums when you can be an anti-scout insurgent in the game.</span></b></blockquote>not that i support them in their forum warfare, but many of us can frequent the forum from work, but can not smash faces in game, from work.

Notsovilepriest
01-18-2008, 05:08 PM
I am in no way an Anti-Scout. I have a scout that is a bard, but back when rangers were "OP" before the removal of focus aim I was for buffing assassins instead of making rangers [Removed for Content] like they are now. I also think that scouts quite honestly now are like spoiled kids that mommy and dad say they may not get them something they want so they throw a grand old fit. I wish people would honestly work on reading what the others say instead of automatically tearing it apart since it will affect them negitively.

Aerlyn
01-18-2008, 08:46 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't see it officially stated anywhere that because I use something that alters my hit points that I <i>should</i> then be engaged in pvp.I don't see it officially stated anywhere that because something only affects my movement speed that I <i>shouldn't</i> be engaged in pvp.Edited to expand on my argument.You're not saying anything new here.  All you're doing is making a statement, so I don't really have anything to say.  I guess we disagree.  I could just repeat my statement again, but there's no point.  Instead I'll just make the above comments, meaning that nothing is set in stone.</blockquote><p>I'm not talking about anything official.  I'm talking about logic and reason here.  The official statement is for all intents and purposes "This is how evac works.  We get it, some of you like to whine about it.  We're willing to accept that, because now that you can no longer evac once you've engaged in pvp we think it's working well enough".  That's not on any press release, but that's what their actions say.</p><p>Obviously nothing is set in stone, but that's kind of why we debate these issues, isn't it?  That's why my argument is that things that dont affect the outcome of a fight where both parties are engaged, shouldn't put you into combat.</p></blockquote>Ok.  My apologies for being a little blunt there.However, I'll argue that evac does affect the outcome of a fight.  It ends the fight in a draw, where otherwise a player might win or lose.  Running away can also end the fight in a draw, but no one is complaining about that because everyone can do it equally.

Shadow_Viper
01-18-2008, 09:07 PM
<p>Having evac put you in PVP combat when used....would pretty much defeat the purpose of evac, now wouldn't it? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>There is nothing wrong with evac, there is nothing wrong with scouts. Just because someone might be having problems "countering" a certain ability does not make it over-powered. Adapt and overcome.</p><p>And yes, scout evac is interruptable, despite what some people would like us to believe.</p>

Aerlyn
01-18-2008, 09:19 PM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><i><b>Mokichan wrote</b></i>:<span style="color: #cc0000;"><i><span style="color: #ff0000;"><b><span class="postbody"> all the people crying about evac have yet to bring up a reasonable, credible argument for disabling evac as soon as you get hit, beyond "it's not fair". Well, no, it isn't. I'm sorry. Have a tissue. It's not fair the same way it's not fair that healers can heal through all sorts of crazy burst dps and then just melee a scout to death when his timers are down. It's not fair the same way tanks mitigate or just flat out dodge a large amount of your burst dps and, again, kick your butt once your timers are down. We have different classes that are good at different things in this game, and it's not always going to be a fair fight.</span></b></span></i></span>Well said. Dont forget how unfair wards are... just completely unfair *winks*</blockquote>I know you're just joking here, but if a person feels that wards are unfair then they should make a case for it.<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>((<u> its a strong signal that the same 3-4 people keep starting threads about evac</u> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />  (And the same 6-7 people keep replying to them, making them multi-page discussions.<span style="font-size: xx-small;">(some assumedly logged in on multiple accounts they own to make the arguments seem more prevalent a topic than they really are) (or on the only accounts they have left after being suspended on others hehe)</span></blockquote>Wow, let's not jump to conclusions.

Aerlyn
01-18-2008, 09:30 PM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>And since you so adamantly claim that only 8-9 people post in these threads, I took you on your word and counted them. I found that 51 different people have participated in these 3 evac threads, not 8-9. Oops... was that yet another "mistake", Arctura? </blockquote>And how many of each sided with which side? Are you here to troll as you normally do or actually particpate? As it stands, you seem to merely be trolling. But if you're not, then I suppose you believe 51 people actually represent the whole playerbase.</blockquote>It's kind of a large step to accuse someone of trolling when they are just responding to someone's previous request to count the number of people involved in the discussion.And 51 is certainly a larger number than 8-9 or 9-11 (3-4 people + 6-7 people).  If 51 is not enough, then at what point do you feel that we have adequately represented the player base?  We can't force people to participate in the discussion, so we just have to accept what we have.Also, counting the number of distinct posters is one thing.  Determining which side they're one is a lot more work, and potentially impossible.  I myself am actually fairly in the middle on the topic, even though I feel that I'm being very vocal.  My interest is in keeping the discussion logical and trying to promote <b>good</b> changes to the game, if any.  I'm hoping that these discussions will come to a conclusion of whether or not the suggested changes are good.  Maybe they're not.  Maybe along the way someone will come up with a better suggestion, possibly not involving a change to evac at all.

Artaguss
01-18-2008, 09:37 PM
<cite>Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>((<i> I personally hate it when im JUST about to get a kill then they use their cheap walk or run maneuvers and get away.How far is that? I DESERVE to kill them because... well just because!!!  /pounds fist on tablePeople should just be torsos, sitting immobile with no chance of moving... that way I can get my well deserved kills!. Sheesh! Legs, whoever thought LEGS would ADD to pvp... it only allows people to stay out of it!</i>In all honesty, this thread is a sobering look at how silly people are getting these days with nerf calls.It was fine before, because people were being destroyed by One-shotting rangers or whatever.... thats all fixed, fine and dandy. People were being levelled by charmed pets in the jungle, well, that seems to be resolved too.Those were legit issues involving players having the edge over others in OFFENSIVE combat, eg. they are seeking to kill folks, and did, with unfair advantages.But JUST BECAUSE YOU CANT GET A KILL, doesnt Mean they should CHANGE THE GAME to suit you better!!!The problem with pvp isnt a scout evacing, or tracking things...its the odd vocal forum goer every now and again who assume they are speaking out on 'behalf of the voice of reason and the silent public majority'starting threads that snowball into something bigger than they really are, and getting the game dynamics drastically changed, punishing everyone.Legitimate issues that plague people and cause them to die should and always take priority. (does someone evacing make players die?)Not being able to kill someone because they lack the skills to adapt to their methods of escape, be they evacing or sprinting, leaping off cliffs, etc. ... please... go get a mez potion... or a snare bauble, or a volatile fluid... or a trinket that casts stun/snare and locks them downIts not like those items dont exist for a reason.PS. please go ahead and tell me im a ganking title hugging evacing running coward... get that out of the way so we can move on to discussing more relevant matters.PPS. Yes, im making this thread speaking out against nerf calls on scouts, because yes, im concerned that my class is threatened by all these posts asking for it to be reduced to a mere warrior.If MEZ's were in danger of being removed, and there would be multiple 4-page threads arguing their validity on pvp servers, all the Enchanters and Bards would be up in arms defending it.If Harm Touch was in danger of being removed, there would be tons of SKs here raging about how it has a purpose in pvp.If Root spells were removed.... well, you get the point.So please spare me the 'waaa waaa you are just crying because your evac is gonna be removed and you'll have to pvp like everyone else!'Well, you know what, I picked a class with track and evac on purpose.I didnt make a sorry decision to roll a blind class with a big can helmet on their heads and no way to see people coming (tank class), or a class with no offensive skills and only the ability to heal others... I made a scout, with track, evac, high damage, and the slipperyness to have the edge in pvp, IF PLAYED well. (which i choose to do)Not all scouts have the edge in pvp, ive seen TONS of NO-TITLED t8 rangers, assassins, troubs, dirges, brigs, swashies, etc (that werent bots).You non-scouts feel you made the wrong choice apparently when picking your class and dont want to re-roll, and want to punish us for that? Please. Make one for yourself and it will all become clear <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Have a good day! *waves*<i><b>Oops!  sorry wrong thread</b></i> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><i><b>    still thought this was funny  </b></i><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>

Aerlyn
01-18-2008, 11:03 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having evac put you in PVP combat when used....would pretty much defeat the purpose of evac, now wouldn't it? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>True, but I think what most people mean when they say "have evac put you in combat" is essentially "don't allow a person to cast evac after someone has engaged them in combat".<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And yes, scout evac is interruptable, despite what some people would like us to believe.</p></blockquote>This has been covered over and over, and I think most people by this point aren't arguing that it's not interruptable.  What most people are saying is that it's an unreasonably hard ability to interrupt, especially considering that when it is successfully cast <b>it ultimately and definitively decides the outcome of a fight; a draw</b>.  No one is arguing for any other combat arts to be easier to interrupt because I don't think any other combat arts has such an ultimate and definitive effect on the outcome of a fight.Again, the argument is not <b>whether or not evac is interruptable</b>.  The argument is over <b>how difficult it is to interrupt</b>.<cite></cite>

Tatate
01-19-2008, 05:18 AM
I play a scout. Honestly I could care less if they kept or removed evac. I know if they do, I wouldn't really care, because for every 7 people that evac from me, I might die because of not having access to evac. Remove it for all I care.

Tatate
01-19-2008, 05:20 AM
I've never been interrupted while casting evac. Might be because I rarely evac, but in any case if you ARE able to interrupt it, please, tell me how. Considering how many interrupt abilities that I cast when I see someone evac'ing and them not being interrupted, I would really like to know what DOES interrupt it.

-Arctura-
01-19-2008, 08:57 AM
<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players..<span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>Aware that the active forum population = small minority, yet claim it reflects popular opinions? *scratches head*</i></span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps the anti-evac campaigners should seek out assistance? Ive seen an illusionist MASTER on Nagafen... perhaps the illusionists who are struggling with pvp can seek this person out for some advice?  Perhaps also the Shaman MASTER from Nagafen can shed some light on pvp tactics to the shamans here who are struggling, or one of the Troubador MASTERs can give some tips to the troubadors here who would much rather call for nerfs than learn what it takes to succeed.There is nothing holding any particular class back in pvp except their will to succeed (or lack thereof).</span></blockquote>

Morninglord21
01-19-2008, 09:03 AM
Every survey that has ever been used to formulate government policy has used a small slice of the population to determine the trend of the population of a whole. The argument is, simply and factually, that people in general are not radically dissimilar from each other, and the number of people required to get an accurate cross-section of the population is less than a hundred. Any introductory psychology course will explain this to you. Hell, even a textbook. Go find one and look up the statistics section.But of course, reality doesn't affect this circumstance does it Arc. Cos this is a game, or some other nonsense. And people can be massively radically different from each other, so ten percent or less of a population are obviously freaks of nature if they disagree with you. Your logic is shocking for someone claiming to espouse it mate.

-Arctura-
01-19-2008, 09:21 AM
<cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every survey that has ever been used to formulate government policy has used a small slice of the population to determine the trend of the population of a whole. The argument is, simply and factually, that people in general are not radically dissimilar from each other, and the number of people required to get an accurate cross-section of the population is less than a hundred. Any introductory psychology course will explain this to you. Hell, even a textbook. Go find one and look up the statistics section.<span style="color: #ff0000;">This sounds true to me, however you are overlooking the fact that the forums is a place where people voice their opinions on an issue when they have a problem with something. Those not posting could be grouped into either 'they dont care' or 'they are content'.  Those in the 'they dont care' might as well be 'content' because they arent voicing their opinions. As a third possibility, we can assume there is a sizeable population that 'doesnt know about the forums'. This group can be bunched into the 'they dont care' group, because if they really cared enough to make a complaint, they would seek out the venues of doing so.P.S. in regards to the collection of statistics for surveys and polls, its also common belief that rarely are any polls publicized an accurate representation of the majority. Just follow any news service and listen to their claims about 'recent polls show...'. I would be cautious when using a textbook survey model to describe the model of the forums, but it is a good start. There was a time when starting Everquest pushed a 'survey' screen into the users face, I would guess this would be the only true way to gather accurate data from the masses, assuming not everyone would simply click a random response to close the screen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></span>But of course, reality doesn't affect this circumstance does it Arc. Cos this is a game, or some other nonsense. <span style="color: #ff0000;">I would say it absolutely does affect this circumstance. I have never hid behind the 'this is a game' excuse to defend against a nicely phrased, well thought out sensible statement in one of the forum discussions. Unlike many, I dont 'pull the wool over my own eyes' on the issues. If undeniable proof of something is given, ill submit to it, and recognize the error of my stance. I have been corrected on several issues in the past, to deny such would be to deny that I'm human.People dont like to be corrected or found to be siding with false facts. I have done it before, because I was mis-informed. *shrugs* Its the process of learning <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></span>And people can be massively radically different from each other, so ten perent or less of a population are obviously freaks of nature if they disagree with you.<span style="color: #ff0000;">On the contrary, i don't see where the hostility is coming from towards me, but ill just *shrug*. I never said anyone disagreeing with me is in any way a 'freak of nature'. I<i> try </i>to side with facts and evidence. (when i have time to gather them. sometimes ill give rough estimations or guesses until proof or numbers can be provided, such as with the 'number of participants in the evac threads' estimate. It honestly just seemed like the same few people replying, but then, i suppose one tends to get tunnel vision upon those who hold opinions that are in immediate contradiction to our own, ah my bad?)To me, first hand experience weighs more heavily than the text-based claims of others, as should anyone else's first hand experience. So to me, the issue about evac being interruptible is already resolved in my head, until solid video proof showing each and every situational proc, buff, attack, control spell, item and/or adornment is shown and each of their relative effects on Evac is fairly represented as proof in a (hopefully somewhat) neutral environment with few variables. In my experience, ive had evac fail Numerous times, against more enemies than just those with Mez spells at their disposal. So, understandably you can see why I am poised to dispute the claims of Evac being 'unstoppable' and 'un-interruptible'.</span> Your logic is shocking for someone claiming to espouse it mate.<span style="color: #ff0000;">*shrugs* logic is often relative to those interpreting it, and will only be logical to them if they are willing to grasp it. If you hear me saying the word 'logic' again in the forums when arguing something, please cut and paste the above quote of mine and shove it in my face incase i forget that fact <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />Its like the mods often say, 'the word "fact" is often used to substitute ones own opinions'.  If you see someone making claims that are in direct opposition to your first hand experiences and not backing them up with proof (with sources cited, if applicable), I would question those claims.I usually TRY to produce proof for my arguments, if i have time. If i dont, meh. Take my opinion as lightly as anyone elses i suppose.Im not the <i>'undeniable voice of truth and reason'</i> and am definately not the <i>'uberest forum-goer ever'</i>. I dont see why people feel I THINK that about myself. Im human, i make mistakes, so do we all.</span></blockquote>

Aerlyn
01-19-2008, 12:23 PM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players..<span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>Aware that the active forum population = small minority, yet claim it reflects popular opinions? *scratches head*</i></span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps the anti-evac campaigners should seek out assistance? Ive seen an illusionist MASTER on Nagafen... perhaps the illusionists who are struggling with pvp can seek this person out for some advice?  Perhaps also the Shaman MASTER from Nagafen can shed some light on pvp tactics to the shamans here who are struggling, or one of the Troubador MASTERs can give some tips to the troubadors here who would much rather call for nerfs than learn what it takes to succeed.There is nothing holding any particular class back in pvp except their will to succeed (or lack thereof).</span></blockquote></blockquote>Just because the forum population is small doesn't mean that it <b>doesn't</b> reflect popular opinions.  It also doesn't mean that it <b>does</b> reflect popular opinions.  However, since we have no mechanism to determine whether or not our forum population accurately reflects popular opinion, it's pointless to argue about it.  We simply have to make due with what we have.  It's better than nothing.It's the same concept for how surveys and focus groups work.  No one wants to go solicit an opinion from every person in the world, so instead you just try to get an accurate cross-section of the population and make your decision based on that.Any by the way, I personally don't feel that I'm struggling, but what I find irritating is the lack of logic and the numerous half-truths that I'm reading in these arguments.  I don't want to see poor and unnecessary changes put into the game, but at the same time, I don't want discussion to be stifled on a topic if there is adequate reason for it to be discussed.  However, maybe I don't fit into the category of people that you're talking about, because I don't consider myself to be anti-evac.  I'm just pro-logic.

Aerlyn
01-19-2008, 01:22 PM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every survey that has ever been used to formulate government policy has used a small slice of the population to determine the trend of the population of a whole. The argument is, simply and factually, that people in general are not radically dissimilar from each other, and the number of people required to get an accurate cross-section of the population is less than a hundred. Any introductory psychology course will explain this to you. Hell, even a textbook. Go find one and look up the statistics section.<span style="color: #ff0000;">This sounds true to me, however you are overlooking the fact that the forums is a place where people voice their opinions on an issue when they have a problem with something. Those not posting could be grouped into either 'they dont care' or 'they are content'.  Those in the 'they dont care' might as well be 'content' because they arent voicing their opinions. As a third possibility, we can assume there is a sizeable population that 'doesnt know about the forums'. This group can be bunched into the 'they dont care' group, because if they really cared enough to make a complaint, they would seek out the venues of doing so.</span></blockquote></blockquote>By the way, I consider myself to be in the "I don't care" category on this issue, despite the fact that I feel like I've been very vocal in this topic.  I usually play a mystic, and I solo probably 95% of the time.  I don't think anyone sees a solo mystic and immediately evacs in a panic.  So this issue doesn't really affect me, personally.  However, I'm choosing to be very vocal here because I feel like there is a lot of instances of people not listening to each other or refusing to even consider another's perspective.  Regardless of my reason, I feel motivated enough to post.Additionally, I don't think you should assume that just because a sizeable population "doesn't know about the forums" they can be grouped into the "the don't care" group.  Just because someone chooses not to find out about the forums, doesn't have an interest in reading hundreds of posts, but instead would rather spend what free time they do have playing the game doesn't mean that they don't care about this issue.  We simply don't know.Your argument is that people who "really care" would seek out the forum and would be posting here.  I just don't think that's the case.  I think a lot of people will get irritated, complain on in-game chat channels, then move on.  I think the natural tendency for most people is to not complain, so I wouldn't expect most people to specifically seek out the forum to vent their frustration on any issue.  Some people may simply feel that posting on the forum is a waste of time.  I can see how someone might think that after reading the forums, considering the constant back and forth bickering that sometimes occurs with neither side appearing to really listen to what anyone else is saying.Edit...I see your point, that if people do not seek out the forum and actively post, then they don't care enough about the issue.  However, I just don't think that's necessarily the case.  I wouldn't group the "I don't care" or the "I don't care enough to take the time to read and post in the forum" group into the "I'm content" group.

BWLeeEllison
01-19-2008, 02:45 PM
<cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every survey that has ever been used to formulate government policy has used a small slice of the population to determine the trend of the population of a whole. The argument is, simply and factually, that people in general are not radically dissimilar from each other, and the number of people required to get an accurate cross-section of the population is less than a hundred. Any introductory psychology course will explain this to you. Hell, even a textbook. Go find one and look up the statistics section.But of course, reality doesn't affect this circumstance does it Arc. Cos this is a game, or some other nonsense. And people can be massively radically different from each other, so ten percent or less of a population are obviously freaks of nature if they disagree with you. Your logic is shocking for someone claiming to espouse it mate.</blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Yes, but the problem is that the "small slice of the population" used in a true and proper statistical representation of public opinion is typically selected from the populace.  If you ask a question "in game" on ooc, you get a sampling of opinion from your zone only.  If you ask in your affiliation chat channel, you get a sampling of opinion from your team only.  If you ask in your guild channel, you will only get opinion from the people in your guild.  In all these cases, you will have a good deal of people, in all likelihood, who do not care, in general, enough to discuss whatever you are asking for an opinion of because they are merely trying to play the game and enjoy themselves, and will either ignore the question, or are not paying attention to chat enough to answer the question, or even have the given chat channel turned off or have that channel sent to another chat tab, and miss the question entirely.  I am quite possibly the only person in my entire guild who ever comes to the forums.  Why?  Because they are playing.  Most people just play.  That is my personal experience.  I am not trying to laud this fact as the statistical reality for everyone else, it is just what I see from where I am.</span></b></p><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;"><b>That being said,...<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite></b><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><b><b>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players..</b></b><b><span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>Aware that the active forum population = small minority, yet claim it reflects popular opinions? *scratches head*</i>Perhaps the anti-evac campaigners should seek out assistance? Ive seen an illusionist MASTER on Nagafen... perhaps the illusionists who are struggling with pvp can seek this person out for some advice?  Perhaps also the Shaman MASTER from Nagafen can shed some light on pvp tactics to the shamans here who are struggling, or one of the Troubador MASTERs can give some tips to the troubadors here who would much rather call for nerfs than learn what it takes to succeed.There is nothing holding any particular class back in pvp except their will to succeed (or lack thereof).</span></b></blockquote></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">the claim that <b>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players.. is incorrect, from a statistical standpoint especially.  A true and more accurate statement would be to say "reflect popular opinions among the players "who use and read the forums".  One cannot assess popular opinion among the players unless Sony did what they used to do in EQ Classic and start throwing opinion polls up from time to time at the log in screen, and even this, a great deal of people tend to ignore or simply click any button so they can get back to their digital crack.</b></span></p></span><p><span><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Asking what people think about evac on these forums is akin to going into a Democrat party office and asking what people think about Bush.</span></b></span></p><p><span><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">The plain and simple truth here is that people who are disgruntled over losing to a scout, or losing a scout kill, come here to complain about, and campaign about the removal of, the scout abilities that chafe them so.  The plain and simple truth is statistics are always skewed in the favor of one side or the other in a debate, and what we have here is apples arguing with oranges, with both sides trying to skew statistics in their favor.  Don't claim majority opinion please.   Simply state your opinions and let everyone else state theirs, and then let everyone else make, form, or state their own opinions as well.  Sony will filter through it all in the long run.</span></b></span></p><p><span><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">And in the long run, it is my opinion that scout do not need, and will not receive, a nerf on "the big three"</span></b><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;"> </span></b></span></p>

Morninglord21
01-19-2008, 03:28 PM
There will be people on this forum who do not care. There will be people who read it who do not post. There will be all the categories other than "I don't know about the forums" represented on the boards. It's big enough and varied enough to represent the normal distribution curve. I came here initially to find out information about pvp, news in the fut ure, etc etc. Most surveys don't take a good statistical representation to be honest. The ones who do generally survey too many people. Most survey a small section of a public institution. Like a university. It's considered enough. I can't take any claim that the forums don't represent a valid slice seriously, because we are not different enough for it to be true. You might think you are very different from me, but we all think very similarly when we consider the entire spectrum of possible behaviours a human being could exhibit. We fall into quite a narrow band of behaviours. So enough of this nonsense about it not being big enough or varied enough. It's not true and it really gets my goat up. How about you all talk about exactly why it's not necessary to nerf it objectively instead.The issue is this: Evac is the only defens ive action that doesn't put you in combat. Why sho uld this be allowed. I haven't heard a good reason yet that doesn't amount to waaaa because its <i>mine</i> don't take away my toy just because you got yours taken away. It's bloody silly to act like that if you ask me. I think it shouldn't work, and I have evac. I love evac. Evacced from a group of freeps just the other day. I don't think it's fair though, that it works and other things don't. I'd be fine with it if other classes defens es worked still, but they don't. Even the pvp lock et poofs. So. There's two sides here. Either bring evac on all classes, not just scouts, all, in line, or fix some of the other defensive abilities. But of course, these other abilities have potential offensive applications, making it problematic. Evac is clearly defensive, but unfortuantly, it has to fall by the way side for the sake of fairness. It's a tough cookie, but you have track to hit evac while running away from people. I don't, and I still want it gone.In the nature of a game, rules have to appear fair. Nonsense about it's a pvp jungle or whatever are elitist childishness and not something Soe should be thinking about. They need to think about making pvp fair, so people want to play it, they get subscriptions, and we all get more people to kill. If that means hitting scouts, wardens and mages evac (who else has it?)into line with every other pvp defensive ability in the game, so be it. Wether its offensive or not is meaningless. It  falls into the defensive category just like these  other abilities could potentially do, so it gets  taken out because they got taken out. It's a victi m, but that's how you make a good game by making it a level playing field for both defensive AND offensive actions. then we are all on a wonderful level play ing field and hey, you can still use track (yes ye s I know it has a limited radius, I've tried it out. It's enough to get off a three second cast  timer if you see more than one enemy) Arc, you are reasonable when called on it but your words appear very hostile when people aren't doing so. Most of your points consist of telling other people they don't have any facts, yet you offer none of your own (although you do offer this nothingness wrapped up in oh so many words). I don't think it's unreasonable to find this annoying mate. Man up and be simple.Incidentally telling me that the facts of the matter are that everybody coming to the forum are doing so because they can't figure out a way to beat it is not going to make me regard you as having a clear indication of what facts are. Here's a hint. Ad hominem, or attacking the arguer rather than his argument, is not, in itself, a valid argument. How's that for an interesting fact?(Incidentally, I don't post often, and I'm getting an issue where a line break is appearing that snaps off my sentence and I can't get rid of it. What causes that?)

-Arctura-
01-19-2008, 09:40 PM
<cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is this: Evac is the only <span style="font-size: small;"><b><strike><u>defensive</u></strike></b></span> action that doesn't put you in combat. </blockquote>(( <span style="font-size: medium;"><b><span><u>Evac is an <i>Evasive</i> action, <i>not</i> a defensive action</u></span></b>. </span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b><i>This</i> is why it does not put you in combat.</b></span>The dictionary is agreeably a trusted source for definitions..Ive looked up the words Evasion, Escape and Defend earlier, so I reposted them here.<span style="color: #cc99ff;"><span style="color: #cc99ff;"><span class="postbody"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><i><u><b>EVASION</b></u>:-  an act or instance of <b>escaping, avoiding</b> something (random house dictionary)-  the act of <b>physically escaping</b> from something (an opponent or a pursuer or an unpleasant situation) by some adroit maneuver (princeton University Dictionary)</i><i><u><b>ESCAPE</b></u>:  (websters online dictionary)<span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1 a</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to<b> get away</b> </span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">2</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>avoid</b> a threatening evil<b></b></span></span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>get free</b> of <b>:</b> <b>break away</b> from </span></span></span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">2</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>get or stay out</b> of the way of </span></span></span></span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"></span></span></i>Now, lets look at 'Defensive'!<u><b><i>DEFEND:</i></b></u><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>take action against attack</b> or challenge (Websters online dictionary)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span>1.<b>resistance against attack</b>; protection: (Random house dictionary)1.to ward off attack from; <b>guard against assault </b>or injury (random house dictionary)2.made or carried on for the purpose of <b>resisting attack </b>(Random house dictionary)3. <b>protect against </b>a challenge or attack (Princeton University Dictionary)3.Intended to <b>withstand</b> or deter aggression or attack: (American Heritage dictionary)<span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_content">Clearly, we can see that Evasive / Evade / Escape implies 'non-aggressive' actions (avoiding an attack), whereasDefense / Defend / Defensive implies the efforts to Withstand and Resist an attack.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>

Morninglord21
01-20-2008, 01:28 AM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is this: Evac is the only <span style="font-size: small;"><b><strike><u>defensive</u></strike></b></span> action that doesn't put you in combat. </blockquote>(( <span style="font-size: medium;"><b><span><u>Evac is an <i>Evasive</i> action, <i>not</i> a defensive action</u></span></b>. </span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b><i>This</i> is why it does not put you in combat.</b></span>The dictionary is agreeably a trusted source for definitions..Ive looked up the words Evasion, Escape and Defend earlier, so I reposted them here.<span style="color: #cc99ff;"><span style="color: #cc99ff;"><span class="postbody"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><i><u><b>EVASION</b></u>:-  an act or instance of <b>escaping, avoiding</b> something (random house dictionary)-  the act of <b>physically escaping</b> from something (an opponent or a pursuer or an unpleasant situation) by some adroit maneuver (princeton University Dictionary)</i><i><u><b>ESCAPE</b></u>:  (websters online dictionary)<span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1 a</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to<b> get away</b> </span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">2</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>avoid</b> a threatening evil<b></b></span></span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>get free</b> of <b>:</b> <b>break away</b> from </span></span></span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">2</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>get or stay out</b> of the way of </span></span></span></span></span></i>Now, lets look at 'Defensive'!<u><b><i>DEFEND:</i></b></u><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>take action against attack</b> or challenge (Websters online dictionary)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span>1.<b>resistance against attack</b>; protection: (Random house dictionary)1.to ward off attack from; <b>guard against assault </b>or injury (random house dictionary)2.made or carried on for the purpose of <b>resisting attack </b>(Random house dictionary)3. <b>protect against </b>a challenge or attack (Princeton University Dictionary)3.Intended to <b>withstand</b> or deter aggression or attack: (American Heritage dictionary)<span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_content">Clearly, we can see that Evasive / Evade / Escape implies 'non-aggressive' actions (avoiding an attack), whereasDefense / Defend / Defensive implies the efforts to Withstand and Resist an attack.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>Oooooh words. I like words. Let's play with these words.To take action against attack. Well, you can avoid an attack, that's an action. The idea of breaking away from an attack is an action on your part.So. They're synonyms.And yes, they ARE synonyms, my good Arc. Here's some more words for you.40 results for: avoidMain Entry: avoidPart of Speech: verbDefinition: stay awaySynonyms: abstain, <b><i>avert</i></b>, bypass, circumlocute, circumvent, deflect, desist, ditch, divert, dodge, duck, elude, escape, eschew, evade, fake out*, <b><i>fend off</i></b>, flee, hide, hold off, jump, keep clear, lay low*, obviate, recoil, shake, shake off, shirk, shrink from, shuffle off, shun, shy, sidestep, skip*, skip town*, skirt*, stay away, stay out, stutter step, turn aside, <i><b>ward off</b></i>, weave, withdrawAntonyms: confront, embrace, face, invite, meet head on, seekNotes: avert means 'prevent, turn away' and avoid means 'stay clear of, shun'44 results for: defendMain Entry: defendPart of Speech: verb 1Definition: protectSynonyms: <i><b>avert</b></i>, battle, beat off, bulwark, care for, cherish, conserve, contend, cover, entrench, espouse, <i><b>fend off</b></i>, fight, fight for, fortify, foster, garrison, guard, guard against, hedge, hold, house, insure, keep safe, look after, maintain, mine, nourish, oppose, panoply, preserve, prevent, protect, provide sanctuary, repel danger, resist, retain, safeguard, save, screen, secure, shelter, shield, stave off, sustain, take in, uphold, war, <i><b>ward off</b></i>, watch, watch over, withstandAntonyms: abandon, attack, surrender52 results for: preventMain Entry: preventPart of Speech: verbDefinition: stopSynonyms: anticipate, arrest, <i><b>avert</b></i>, <i><b>avoid</b></i>, baffle, balk, bar, block, check, chill*, cool, cork, counter, counteract, dam, debar, <i><b>defend against</b></i>, foil, forbid, forestall, forfend, frustrate, halt, hamper, head off, hinder, hold back, hold off, impede, inhibit, intercept, interdict, interrupt, limit, obstruct, obviate, preclude, prohibit, repress, restrain, restrict, [I cannot control my vocabulary], rule out, shut out, stave off, stop, storm-stay, thwart, turn aside, <i><b>ward off</b></i>Antonyms: allow, cause, encourage6 results for: defensiveMain Entry: defensivePart of Speech: adjectiveDefinition: protectiveSynonyms: arresting, <i><b>averting</b></i>, balking, checking, conservative, coping with, defending, foiling, forestalling, frustrating, guarding, in opposition, interrupting, opposing, preservative, preventive, protecting, resistive, safeguarding, thwarting, uptight*, watchful, withstandingAntonyms: offensive, unprotectiveNotes: defendable means capable of being protected or justified; defensible means capable of being defended or justified; defensive means attempting to justify or defend22 results for: avertMain Entry: avertPart of Speech: verbDefinition: thwartSynonyms: <i><b>avoid</b></i>, deflect, deter, <i><b>fend off</b></i>, foil, forestall, frustrate, halt, look away, preclude, prevent, rule out, shove aside, shunt, stave off, turn, turn aside, turn away, <i><b>ward off</b></i>Antonyms: cause, exacerbate, helpNotes: 1. avert means 'prevent, turn away' and avoid means 'stay clear of, shun'2. overt means apparent or open to view or plain or public; avert means to prevent or turn awayEnough mate. I could go on indefinitely. You can't run around me with words. If it makes you feel better, how about I define it as the only averting action that is still in the game, since you have difficulty with the synergistic nature of the english language.And now, let's address that concept, and not sidestep the issue. It's tricky isn't it. You actually have to justify the ability now. You actually have to directly address the concept. Hop to it.

BWLeeEllison
01-20-2008, 04:29 AM
<cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The issue is this: Evac is the only <span style="font-size: small;"><b><strike><u>defensive</u></strike></b></span> action that doesn't put you in combat. </blockquote>(( <span style="font-size: medium;"><b><span><u>Evac is an <i>Evasive</i> action, <i>not</i> a defensive action</u></span></b>. </span><span style="font-size: medium;"><b><i>This</i> is why it does not put you in combat.</b></span>The dictionary is agreeably a trusted source for definitions..Ive looked up the words Evasion, Escape and Defend earlier, so I reposted them here.<span style="color: #cc99ff;"><span style="color: #cc99ff;"><span class="postbody"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><i><u><b>EVASION</b></u>:-  an act or instance of <b>escaping, avoiding</b> something (random house dictionary)-  the act of <b>physically escaping</b> from something (an opponent or a pursuer or an unpleasant situation) by some adroit maneuver (princeton University Dictionary)</i><i><u><b>ESCAPE</b></u>:  (websters online dictionary)<span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1 a</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to<b> get away</b> </span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">2</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>avoid</b> a threatening evil<b></b></span></span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>get free</b> of <b>:</b> <b>break away</b> from </span></span></span></span><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">2</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>get or stay out</b> of the way of </span></span></span></span></span></i>Now, lets look at 'Defensive'!<u><b><i>DEFEND:</i></b></u><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_label start">1</span><span class="sense_content"><b>:</b> to <b>take action against attack</b> or challenge (Websters online dictionary)</span></span></span></span></span></span></span>1.<b>resistance against attack</b>; protection: (Random house dictionary)1.to ward off attack from; <b>guard against assault </b>or injury (random house dictionary)2.made or carried on for the purpose of <b>resisting attack </b>(Random house dictionary)3. <b>protect against </b>a challenge or attack (Princeton University Dictionary)3.Intended to <b>withstand</b> or deter aggression or attack: (American Heritage dictionary)<span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_break"><span class="sense_content">Clearly, we can see that Evasive / Evade / Escape implies 'non-aggressive' actions (avoiding an attack), whereasDefense / Defend / Defensive implies the efforts to Withstand and Resist an attack.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></blockquote>Oooooh words. I like words. Let's play with these words.To take action against attack. Well, you can avoid an attack, that's an action. The idea of breaking away from an attack is an action on your part.So. They're synonyms.And yes, they ARE synonyms, my good Arc. Here's some more words for you.40 results for: avoidMain Entry: avoidPart of Speech: verbDefinition: stay awaySynonyms: abstain, <b><i>avert</i></b>, bypass, circumlocute, circumvent, deflect, desist, ditch, divert, dodge, duck, elude, escape, eschew, evade, fake out*, <b><i>fend off</i></b>, flee, hide, hold off, jump, keep clear, lay low*, obviate, recoil, shake, shake off, shirk, shrink from, shuffle off, shun, shy, sidestep, skip*, skip town*, skirt*, stay away, stay out, stutter step, turn aside, <i><b>ward off</b></i>, weave, withdrawAntonyms: confront, embrace, face, invite, meet head on, seekNotes: avert means 'prevent, turn away' and avoid means 'stay clear of, shun'44 results for: defendMain Entry: defendPart of Speech: verb 1Definition: protectSynonyms: <i><b>avert</b></i>, battle, beat off, bulwark, care for, cherish, conserve, contend, cover, entrench, espouse, <i><b>fend off</b></i>, fight, fight for, fortify, foster, garrison, guard, guard against, hedge, hold, house, insure, keep safe, look after, maintain, mine, nourish, oppose, panoply, preserve, prevent, protect, provide sanctuary, repel danger, resist, retain, safeguard, save, screen, secure, shelter, shield, stave off, sustain, take in, uphold, war, <i><b>ward off</b></i>, watch, watch over, withstandAntonyms: abandon, attack, surrender52 results for: preventMain Entry: preventPart of Speech: verbDefinition: stopSynonyms: anticipate, arrest, <i><b>avert</b></i>, <i><b>avoid</b></i>, baffle, balk, bar, block, check, chill*, cool, cork, counter, counteract, dam, debar, <i><b>defend against</b></i>, foil, forbid, forestall, forfend, frustrate, halt, hamper, head off, hinder, hold back, hold off, impede, inhibit, intercept, interdict, interrupt, limit, obstruct, obviate, preclude, prohibit, repress, restrain, restrict, [I cannot control my vocabulary], rule out, shut out, stave off, stop, storm-stay, thwart, turn aside, <i><b>ward off</b></i>Antonyms: allow, cause, encourage6 results for: defensiveMain Entry: defensivePart of Speech: adjectiveDefinition: protectiveSynonyms: arresting, <i><b>averting</b></i>, balking, checking, conservative, coping with, defending, foiling, forestalling, frustrating, guarding, in opposition, interrupting, opposing, preservative, preventive, protecting, resistive, safeguarding, thwarting, uptight*, watchful, withstandingAntonyms: offensive, unprotectiveNotes: defendable means capable of being protected or justified; defensible means capable of being defended or justified; defensive means attempting to justify or defend22 results for: avertMain Entry: avertPart of Speech: verbDefinition: thwartSynonyms: <i><b>avoid</b></i>, deflect, deter, <i><b>fend off</b></i>, foil, forestall, frustrate, halt, look away, preclude, prevent, rule out, shove aside, shunt, stave off, turn, turn aside, turn away, <i><b>ward off</b></i>Antonyms: cause, exacerbate, helpNotes: 1. avert means 'prevent, turn away' and avoid means 'stay clear of, shun'2. overt means apparent or open to view or plain or public; avert means to prevent or turn awayEnough mate. I could go on indefinitely. You can't run around me with words. If it makes you feel better, how about I define it as the only averting action that is still in the game, since you have difficulty with the synergistic nature of the english language.And now, let's address that concept, and not sidestep the issue. It's tricky isn't it. You actually have to justify the ability now. You actually have to directly address the concept. Hop to it.</blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">And yet, amazingly enough, no where in the synonyms for "avoid" do we find the word "defend", nor in the synonyms for "defend" do we find the word "avoid".  This is likely due to the fact that defend means something vastly different from avoid.  All this demonstrates is that semantics can produce common synonyms for two words with different definitions.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Example:  The valiant knight rushes into the cave as the dragon is about do chew the princess into bits.  If he wants to try to save the princess, he will have to "defend" her from the dragon.  If he "avoids" the dragon and goes to have a beer at the local pub, the dragon gets fed.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Basically Arctura is trying to explain, presumably for the benefit of the OP (as an attempt to answer his question) the difference between other commonly accepted "defensive" actions and evac, namely to emphasize the fact that it is not in anyway an attempt to defend one's self, but rather an escape mechanism in order to avoid combat all together.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Sarcasm is fine in my book, but there is also a difference between sarcasm and just being negative (something I am trying very hard to refrain from doing).  If you are angry at something you read here, seriously, count to 10 before you start posting.  Anger is such a bad thing, really.</span></b></p>

keLston
01-20-2008, 04:42 PM
<cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Enough mate. I could go on indefinitely. You can't run around me with words. If it makes you feel better, how about I define it as the only averting action that is still in the game, since you have difficulty with the synergistic nature of the english language.And now, let's address that concept, and not sidestep the issue. It's tricky isn't it. You actually have to justify the ability now. You actually have to directly address the concept. Hop to it.</blockquote>Selective arguing is a logical fallacy, my friend.But if you prefer it that way, Merriam Webster does not include averting in the list of synonyms for defensive. Nor does Encarta. Or Wordsmyth. You chose Roget's. Now which is more correct?I mean, you could, theoretically, continue to spam through synonyms until you find one that is remotely related in some obscure fashion, but that doesn't help your argument. Humans are related to dinosaurs if you went back far enough in the evolutionary chain. This doesn't make it viable for me to claim that I am a velociraptor on official documents asking for my race/nationality.You also decided to ignore context. In the context of the game, offensive and defensive actions are both direct or indirect actions against your opponent. Evasive actions are not.

Badaxe Ba
01-20-2008, 06:55 PM
I think I will 'avoid' from posting in this thread again, because when I 'defend' evac, I get attacked for being a scout class.  Because I want to 'avert' a nerf that would affect six subclasses, when others want to 'prevent' targets from having any escape whatsoever.  Its hard not to get 'defensive' over this subject.

-Arctura-
01-20-2008, 09:07 PM
<cite>(( <3 Harry funny <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></cite>

-Arctura-
01-20-2008, 09:17 PM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Morninglord21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Enough mate. I could go on indefinitely. You can't run around me with words. If it makes you feel better, how about I define it as the only averting action that is still in the game, since you have difficulty with the synergistic nature of the english language.And now, let's address that concept, and not sidestep the issue. It's tricky isn't it. You actually have to justify the ability now. You actually have to directly address the concept. Hop to it.</blockquote>Selective arguing is a logical fallacy, my friend.But if you prefer it that way, Merriam Webster does not include averting in the list of synonyms for defensive. Nor does Encarta. Or Wordsmyth. You chose Roget's. Now which is more correct?I mean, you could, theoretically, continue to spam through synonyms until you find one that is remotely related in some obscure fashion, but that doesn't help your argument. Humans are related to dinosaurs if you went back far enough in the evolutionary chain. This doesn't make it viable for me to claim that I am a velociraptor on official documents asking for my race/nationality.You also decided to ignore context. In the context of the game, offensive and defensive actions are both direct or indirect actions against your opponent. Evasive actions are not.</blockquote>(( I was going to write out a very similar post to what KeLston said here, but since they said it best......What KeLston said <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />P.S. For future reference it helps ones case when listing words from the dictionary / thesaurus etc if the words actually coincide with the point or message the poster is trying to get across. In all the words posted, only Once does Avert ever have a synonym of 'Defend Against', and that is but one of many, many synonyms. (Additionally, I believe the words we were dealing with were Defend and Evade. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Xisi
01-23-2008, 03:38 PM
wow, so now evac has its own category, called "evasive" spell? What others spells are considered evasive spells or is evac the only "evasive" spell that has its own special rules?That's hilarious. I just find the whole argument funny but at the same time, hollow, and desperate. Disclaimer, I don't care about PvP or scouts but I want to get fair treatment. If scouts have "evasive" spells with its special rules, I want every class have their own categories with special rule sets. Thanks. Oh, those colorful words wont boost your argument, only getting really annoying to my eyes.

Sightless
01-23-2008, 03:46 PM
<cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote>wow, so now evac has its own category, called "evasive" spell? What others spells are considered evasive spells or is evac the only "evasive" spell that has its own special rules?That's hilarious. I just find the whole argument funny but at the same time, hollow, and desperate. Disclaimer, I don't care about PvP or scouts but I want to get fair treatment. If scouts have "evasive" spells with its special rules, I want every class have their own categories with special rule sets. Thanks. Oh, those colorful words wont boost your argument, only getting really annoying to my eyes. </blockquote>So every other class should be just like the scout, really? Where is my mesmerize, my instant cast heals, my instant cast wards, et cetera?

Xisi
01-23-2008, 03:51 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote>wow, so now evac has its own category, called "evasive" spell? What others spells are considered evasive spells or is evac the only "evasive" spell that has its own special rules?That's hilarious. I just find the whole argument funny but at the same time, hollow, and desperate. Disclaimer, I don't care about PvP or scouts but I want to get fair treatment. If scouts have "evasive" spells with its special rules, I want every class have their own categories with special rule sets. Thanks. Oh, those colorful words wont boost your argument, only getting really annoying to my eyes. </blockquote>So every other class should be just like the scout, really? Where is my mesmerize, my instant cast heals, my instant cast wards, et cetera?</blockquote>Category, hint. From reading the posts, people are generally categorizing spells either as "defensive" or "offensive," and the title of this thread says "defensive" abilities. But we have now "evasive" abilities. lol Any way, fun watching some nonsense arguments. Relax, and treat this as a game. You are not a mage or scout in real life, are you?

Sightless
01-23-2008, 03:56 PM
<cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote>wow, so now evac has its own category, called "evasive" spell? What others spells are considered evasive spells or is evac the only "evasive" spell that has its own special rules?That's hilarious. I just find the whole argument funny but at the same time, hollow, and desperate. Disclaimer, I don't care about PvP or scouts but I want to get fair treatment. If scouts have "evasive" spells with its special rules, I want every class have their own categories with special rule sets. Thanks. Oh, those colorful words wont boost your argument, only getting really annoying to my eyes. </blockquote>So every other class should be just like the scout, really? Where is my mesmerize, my instant cast heals, my instant cast wards, et cetera?</blockquote>Category, hint. From reading the posts, people are generally categorizing spells either as "defensive" or "offensive," and the title of this thread says "defensive" abilities. But we have now "evasive" abilities. lol Any way, fun watching some nonsense arguments. Relax, and treat this as a game. You are not a mage or scout in real life, are you? </blockquote>Under the Ranger achievment tree evac is listed under the survivability list. Survival Instincts which increases our defense isn't under the survivability line, but under the focusing line. So SOMEONE at Sony believes it isn't a defensive ability. Under the survivability line there is also sprint, and enhanced pathfinding.

Xisi
01-23-2008, 04:16 PM
You cannot really define what spells are defensive or offensive by looking at what trees buff those spells. They are mixed sometimes. For example, the enchanter intellect tree, what is it? It has savant's insight, which is arguably defensive, and volitile magic, which is very offensive ability. As for illusionist tree, the enchanting line has enhanced cure, which is defensive, and infamous illusory arm, which is very offensive enhancement ability.  They group them together not under "defensive" or "offensive" categories.

Sightless
01-23-2008, 04:17 PM
<cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot really define what spells are defensive or offensive by looking at what trees buff those spells. They are mixed sometimes. For example, the enchanter intellect tree, what is it? It has savant's insight, which is arguably defensive, and volitile magic, which is very offensive ability. As for illusionist tree, the enchanting line has enhanced cure, which is defensive, and infamous illusory arm, which is very offensive enhancement ability.  They group them together not under "defensive" or "offensive" categories. </blockquote>Do you really think there are ONLY defensive and offensive capabilities?

Xisi
01-23-2008, 04:29 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot really define what spells are defensive or offensive by looking at what trees buff those spells. They are mixed sometimes. For example, the enchanter intellect tree, what is it? It has savant's insight, which is arguably defensive, and volitile magic, which is very offensive ability. As for illusionist tree, the enchanting line has enhanced cure, which is defensive, and infamous illusory arm, which is very offensive enhancement ability.  They group them together not under "defensive" or "offensive" categories. </blockquote>Do you really think there are ONLY defensive and offensive capabilities?</blockquote>It's not for me to decide in a game. But in reality, when someone takes an action, it's either offensive or defensive or maybe both. Do you really think evac is so-called "evasive" ability, and if so, what other spells are evasive abilities?

Sightless
01-23-2008, 04:48 PM
<cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot really define what spells are defensive or offensive by looking at what trees buff those spells. They are mixed sometimes. For example, the enchanter intellect tree, what is it? It has savant's insight, which is arguably defensive, and volitile magic, which is very offensive ability. As for illusionist tree, the enchanting line has enhanced cure, which is defensive, and infamous illusory arm, which is very offensive enhancement ability.  They group them together not under "defensive" or "offensive" categories. </blockquote>Do you really think there are ONLY defensive and offensive capabilities?</blockquote>It's not for me to decide in a game. But in reality, when someone takes an action, it's either offensive or defensive or maybe both. Do you really think evac is so-called "evasive" ability, and if so, what other spells are evasive abilities?</blockquote>Running, sprinting, evacing, pact of cheetah (which only puts you in combat if it removes a root), Overclocked Gnome Trainers, and any other form of fleeing is evasive. Are you familiar with what "evasive maneuvers" are?

Dh
01-23-2008, 06:11 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot really define what spells are defensive or offensive by looking at what trees buff those spells. They are mixed sometimes. For example, the enchanter intellect tree, what is it? It has savant's insight, which is arguably defensive, and volitile magic, which is very offensive ability. As for illusionist tree, the enchanting line has enhanced cure, which is defensive, and infamous illusory arm, which is very offensive enhancement ability.  They group them together not under "defensive" or "offensive" categories. </blockquote>Do you really think there are ONLY defensive and offensive capabilities?</blockquote>It's not for me to decide in a game. But in reality, when someone takes an action, it's either offensive or defensive or maybe both. Do you really think evac is so-called "evasive" ability, and if so, what other spells are evasive abilities?</blockquote>Running, sprinting, evacing, pact of cheetah (which only puts you in combat if it removes a root), Overclocked Gnome Trainers, and any other form of fleeing is evasive. Are you familiar with what "evasive maneuvers" are?</blockquote><p>Under your reasoning, wouldn't scout "Evade" (deagro/clear target) abilities be evasive? Those put you in combat.</p><p>Don't remove evacs, simply make scout evacs so you have to stand still to cast like every other evac.</p>

Sightless
01-23-2008, 06:27 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lenova wrote:</cite><blockquote>You cannot really define what spells are defensive or offensive by looking at what trees buff those spells. They are mixed sometimes. For example, the enchanter intellect tree, what is it? It has savant's insight, which is arguably defensive, and volitile magic, which is very offensive ability. As for illusionist tree, the enchanting line has enhanced cure, which is defensive, and infamous illusory arm, which is very offensive enhancement ability.  They group them together not under "defensive" or "offensive" categories. </blockquote>Do you really think there are ONLY defensive and offensive capabilities?</blockquote>It's not for me to decide in a game. But in reality, when someone takes an action, it's either offensive or defensive or maybe both. Do you really think evac is so-called "evasive" ability, and if so, what other spells are evasive abilities?</blockquote>Running, sprinting, evacing, pact of cheetah (which only puts you in combat if it removes a root), Overclocked Gnome Trainers, and any other form of fleeing is evasive. Are you familiar with what "evasive maneuvers" are?</blockquote><p>Under your reasoning, wouldn't scout "Evade" (deagro/clear target) abilities be evasive? Those put you in combat.</p><p>Don't remove evacs, simply make scout evacs so you have to stand still to cast like every other evac.</p></blockquote>There are a couple evac items that can be cast on the run, and one that can be cast while you are in combat.

Shadow_Viper
01-23-2008, 06:37 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having evac put you in PVP combat when used....would pretty much defeat the purpose of evac, now wouldn't it? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>True, but I think what most people mean when they say "have evac put you in combat" is essentially "don't allow a person to cast evac after someone has engaged them in combat". <b><span style="color: #009900;">Again, doing that would defeat the purpose of evac, now wouldn't it? </span></b><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And yes, scout evac is interruptable, despite what some people would like us to believe.</p></blockquote><p>This has been covered over and over, and I think most people by this point aren't arguing that it's not interruptable.  What most people are saying is that it's an unreasonably hard ability to interrupt, especially considering that when it is successfully cast <b>it ultimately and definitively decides the outcome of a fight; a draw</b>.  No one is arguing for any other combat arts to be easier to interrupt because I don't think any other combat arts has such an ultimate and definitive effect on the outcome of a fight.Again, the argument is not <b>whether or not evac is interruptable</b>.  The argument is over <b>how difficult it is to interrupt</b>.</p><p><span style="color: #009900;"><b>I personally wouldn't have a problem if scout evac was changed to be more in line with an SK's evac(for example). But then people would just pick another of a scout's abilities and call for nerfs... </b></span><cite></cite></p></blockquote>Replies in green.

Gimet
01-23-2008, 06:43 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having evac put you in PVP combat when used....would pretty much defeat the purpose of evac, now wouldn't it? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>True, but I think what most people mean when they say "have evac put you in combat" is essentially "don't allow a person to cast evac after someone has engaged them in combat". <b><span style="color: #009900;">Again, doing that would defeat the purpose of evac, now wouldn't it? </span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">Famous scout quote, "ZOMG WATCH YOUR SURROUNDINGS". Well, watch your track. If you think track is broken take that out with the devs. Just be sure to see your enemy and cast evac fully BEFORE they hit you. So no, disabling you to be able to prance aorund your attacker and evac when you're in the red does not disable th epurpose of evac. =)</span></b><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And yes, scout evac is interruptable, despite what some people would like us to believe.</p></blockquote><p>This has been covered over and over, and I think most people by this point aren't arguing that it's not interruptable.  What most people are saying is that it's an unreasonably hard ability to interrupt, especially considering that when it is successfully cast <b>it ultimately and definitively decides the outcome of a fight; a draw</b>.  No one is arguing for any other combat arts to be easier to interrupt because I don't think any other combat arts has such an ultimate and definitive effect on the outcome of a fight.Again, the argument is not <b>whether or not evac is interruptable</b>.  The argument is over <b>how difficult it is to interrupt</b>.</p><p><span style="color: #009900;"><b>I personally wouldn't have a problem if scout evac was changed to be more in line with an SK's evac(for example). But then people would just pick another of a scout's abilities and call for nerfs... </b></span><cite></cite></p></blockquote>Replies in green.</blockquote><span style="color: #cc0000;">RED</span>

Shadow_Viper
01-23-2008, 06:49 PM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players..<span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>Aware that the active forum population = small minority, yet claim it reflects popular opinions? *scratches head*</i></span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps the anti-evac campaigners should seek out assistance? Ive seen an illusionist MASTER on Nagafen... perhaps the illusionists who are struggling with pvp can seek this person out for some advice?  Perhaps also the Shaman MASTER from Nagafen can shed some light on pvp tactics to the shamans here who are struggling, or one of the Troubador MASTERs can give some tips to the troubadors here who would much rather call for nerfs than learn what it takes to succeed.There is nothing holding any particular class back in pvp except their will to succeed (or lack thereof).</span></blockquote></blockquote>Well said. People's time would be alot better spent asking for advice on things that are giving them problems rather than trying to get something nerfed or changed just so they no longer have to deal with it.

Gimet
01-23-2008, 06:56 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players..<span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>Aware that the active forum population = small minority, yet claim it reflects popular opinions? *scratches head*</i></span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps the anti-evac campaigners should seek out assistance? Ive seen an illusionist MASTER on Nagafen... perhaps the illusionists who are struggling with pvp can seek this person out for some advice?  Perhaps also the Shaman MASTER from Nagafen can shed some light on pvp tactics to the shamans here who are struggling, or one of the Troubador MASTERs can give some tips to the troubadors here who would much rather call for nerfs than learn what it takes to succeed.There is nothing holding any particular class back in pvp except their will to succeed (or lack thereof).</span></blockquote></blockquote>Well said. People's time would be alot better spent asking for advice on things that are giving them problems rather than trying to get something nerfed or changed just so they no longer have to deal with it.</blockquote><p>Really?</p><p>So why isn't everyone in the real world a master at everything if askign for help improves what you're able to do so much.</p><p>That Master Illusionist can be a representative of what's Possible...but not what's easy or capable to the rest of the Illusionist population....you two do realize that correct?</p>

Shadow_Viper
01-23-2008, 07:15 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having evac put you in PVP combat when used....would pretty much defeat the purpose of evac, now wouldn't it? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>True, but I think what most people mean when they say "have evac put you in combat" is essentially "don't allow a person to cast evac after someone has engaged them in combat". <b><span style="color: #009900;">Again, doing that would defeat the purpose of evac, now wouldn't it? </span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">Famous scout quote, "ZOMG WATCH YOUR SURROUNDINGS". Well, watch your track. If you think track is broken take that out with the devs. Just be sure to see your enemy and cast evac fully BEFORE they hit you. So no, disabling you to be able to prance aorund your attacker and evac when you're in the red does not disable th epurpose of evac. =)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #009900;">People have an enemy escape from them, so they come to the forums and call for a nerf, basically what this thread is. These are a PVP servers everyone, you WILL NOT beable to kill someone 100% of the time. You WILL have people escape from you. Like wise there WILL be times you escape from others. You also WILL be defeated on occasion. Please accept it. Adapt and Overcome.</span></b><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>And yes, scout evac is interruptable, despite what some people would like us to believe.</p></blockquote><p>This has been covered over and over, and I think most people by this point aren't arguing that it's not interruptable.  What most people are saying is that it's an unreasonably hard ability to interrupt, especially considering that when it is successfully cast <b>it ultimately and definitively decides the outcome of a fight; a draw</b>.  No one is arguing for any other combat arts to be easier to interrupt because I don't think any other combat arts has such an ultimate and definitive effect on the outcome of a fight.Again, the argument is not <b>whether or not evac is interruptable</b>.  The argument is over <b>how difficult it is to interrupt</b>.</p><p><span style="color: #009900;"><b>I personally wouldn't have a problem if scout evac was changed to be more in line with an SK's evac(for example). But then people would just pick another of a scout's abilities and call for nerfs... </b></span><cite></cite></p></blockquote>Replies in green.</blockquote><span style="color: #cc0000;">RED</span></blockquote>

Shadow_Viper
01-23-2008, 07:16 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players..<span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>Aware that the active forum population = small minority, yet claim it reflects popular opinions? *scratches head*</i></span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps the anti-evac campaigners should seek out assistance? Ive seen an illusionist MASTER on Nagafen... perhaps the illusionists who are struggling with pvp can seek this person out for some advice?  Perhaps also the Shaman MASTER from Nagafen can shed some light on pvp tactics to the shamans here who are struggling, or one of the Troubador MASTERs can give some tips to the troubadors here who would much rather call for nerfs than learn what it takes to succeed.There is nothing holding any particular class back in pvp except their will to succeed (or lack thereof).</span></blockquote></blockquote>Well said. People's time would be alot better spent asking for advice on things that are giving them problems rather than trying to get something nerfed or changed just so they no longer have to deal with it.</blockquote><p>Really?</p><p>So why isn't everyone in the real world a master at everything if askign for help improves what you're able to do so much.</p><p>That Master Illusionist can be a representative of what's Possible...but not what's easy or capable to the rest of the Illusionist population....you two do realize that correct?</p></blockquote>And do you realize that EQ2 is a game and not real life?

bladechef
01-23-2008, 09:51 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players..<span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>Aware that the active forum population = small minority, yet claim it reflects popular opinions? *scratches head*</i></span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps the anti-evac campaigners should seek out assistance? Ive seen an illusionist MASTER on Nagafen... perhaps the illusionists who are struggling with pvp can seek this person out for some advice?  Perhaps also the Shaman MASTER from Nagafen can shed some light on pvp tactics to the shamans here who are struggling, or one of the Troubador MASTERs can give some tips to the troubadors here who would much rather call for nerfs than learn what it takes to succeed.There is nothing holding any particular class back in pvp except their will to succeed (or lack thereof).</span></blockquote></blockquote>Well said. People's time would be alot better spent asking for advice on things that are giving them problems rather than trying to get something nerfed or changed just so they no longer have to deal with it.</blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: times new roman,times;">I find it funny that this post mentions Master troub and Illusionist... Overseer now if we're thinking of the same folks.  Funny because these two are also never found solo or moreso never seen outside of a stacked, static group.   Ever.  AND to top it off they routinely evac from opposing groups who have titles that could detract from their own including the use of miracles to break combat and cast the unbreakable scout evac and get away with OH SO PRECIOUS famez intact.  </span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">Nice point though.  Players shouldn't seek balance in the game.  Just get 5 people to follow you everywhere you go and then the issue is moot... except that any scout can still evac himself/his group away from yours reguardless.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">Wizard, Warden & SK evacs get no posts on the forums... I wonder why?  /boggle  if all were the same this whole thread wouldn't exist</span></b></p>

Sightless
01-23-2008, 10:53 PM
Actually, I get Wizards, Wardens and Shadow Knights who evac on me all the time. The only difference in evacs is a scout can escape from a group. So excuse me if I don't feel bad for groups who miss out on killing a single player who's alone.

Gimet
01-23-2008, 11:26 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>...the majority of the player base don't participate in (or even read) these discussions, but ...the opinions expressed here... reflect popular opinions among the players..<span style="color: #ff0000;"><i>Aware that the active forum population = small minority, yet claim it reflects popular opinions? *scratches head*</i></span><span style="color: #ff0000;">Perhaps the anti-evac campaigners should seek out assistance? Ive seen an illusionist MASTER on Nagafen... perhaps the illusionists who are struggling with pvp can seek this person out for some advice?  Perhaps also the Shaman MASTER from Nagafen can shed some light on pvp tactics to the shamans here who are struggling, or one of the Troubador MASTERs can give some tips to the troubadors here who would much rather call for nerfs than learn what it takes to succeed.There is nothing holding any particular class back in pvp except their will to succeed (or lack thereof).</span></blockquote></blockquote>Well said. People's time would be alot better spent asking for advice on things that are giving them problems rather than trying to get something nerfed or changed just so they no longer have to deal with it.</blockquote><p>Really?</p><p>So why isn't everyone in the real world a master at everything if askign for help improves what you're able to do so much.</p><p>That Master Illusionist can be a representative of what's Possible...but not what's easy or capable to the rest of the Illusionist population....you two do realize that correct?</p></blockquote>And do you realize that EQ2 is a game and not real life?</blockquote>Yes, I do. But obviously you didn't fully understand my point.Games are easier than life. Yet every Illusionist you see running around doesn't have Master now do they? Even some of the best you may know. I wonder why.

-Arctura-
01-23-2008, 11:40 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Games are easier than life. Yet every Illusionist you see running around doesn't have Master now do they? Even some of the best you may know. I wonder why.<span style="color: #ff0000;">One could also say'Yet every <b>SCOUT </b>you see running around<b> doesn't</b> have Master now do they? I wonder why.</span></blockquote>

Gimet
01-24-2008, 12:01 AM
<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Games are easier than life. Yet every Illusionist you see running around doesn't have Master now do they? Even some of the best you may know. I wonder why.<span style="color: #ff0000;">One could also say'Yet every <b>SCOUT </b>you see running around<b> doesn't</b> have Master now do they? I wonder why.</span></blockquote></blockquote><p>I fail to understand what you are trying to prove about scouts. I was simply comenting on "Well said. People's time would be alot better spent asking for advice on things that are giving them problems rather than trying to get something nerfed or changed just so they no longer have to deal with it." and posts after that.</p><p>That statement only justifies inequality and people adapting to it. While classes will never be completely equal, implying/suggesting/advocating a L2P statement only proves that you're defending somehting that you know is grossly wrong.</p><p>Thus being Evac?</p>

-Arctura-
01-24-2008, 03:07 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Games are easier than life. Yet every Illusionist you see running around doesn't have Master now do they? Even some of the best you may know. I wonder why.<span style="color: #ff0000;">One could also say'Yet every <b>SCOUT </b>you see running around<b> doesn't</b> have Master now do they? I wonder why.</span></blockquote></blockquote><p>...implying/suggesting/advocating a L2P statement... </p><span style="color: #ffff00;">If I in any way implied an L2P statement by repeating what you said and substituting 'Scout', I was not aware of it. If youd like i can revise my post to be more acceptable.</span><p>only proves that you're defending somehting that you know is grossly wrong.</p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">how, exactly?</span></blockquote>

Shadow_Viper
01-24-2008, 07:56 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only difference in evacs is a scout can escape from a group. So excuse me if I don't feel bad for groups who miss out on killing a single player who's alone.</blockquote>Aye, well said

Shadow_Viper
01-24-2008, 08:07 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That statement only justifies inequality and people adapting to it. While classes will never be completely equal, implying/suggesting/advocating a L2P statement only proves that you're defending somehting that you know is grossly wrong.</p><p>Thus being Evac?</p></blockquote>So it seems that what you're basically saying is that if there is a class' ability that is giving a person some problems when going up against said class, rather than learning how to counter that ability and improving their playing skills in the process; that they should just come to the forums and ask that that ability be nerfed?