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View Full Version : SoE show some love for casters!


caliburns
01-08-2008, 10:27 AM
<p><i>For awhile now all casters have been put to the side while melee classes have been buffed given new and better high resist gear while the casters have been given nothing but lower damage and Insane resist rate, This is utterly unfair, While the scouts can easily do out dps we struggle to even get a hit to land(pvp) our casts are so slow that we cant even cast them once we are pounded on(perma interrupted), and root is worthless, if they are not immune it resists if it isn't resisted it lasts 2 sec or is cured by a potion making them immune for 30 secs.  </i></p><p><i>Caster DPS isn't all that now days any way, what we cast for 5 sec to achieve scouts can do in 2 sec flat, heck even level 80 furies can do near to out damage now, they can even heal snare and buff.</i></p><p><i>It feels like SoE is trying to phase out all casters or make them so worthless that they Have to group to even think about pvp, Casters have next to No defence, manna shield(sorcerers) at level 80 keeps you alive for less then 3 secs.</i></p><p><i> Some thing needs to be done.</i></p><p><i>Give us better gear, give us, and I mean all casters better defence, take a note from Wow, give us a blink. its already in the game, why not give it to us as a spell that can be used more often.</i></p><p><i>Give us any thing!</i></p>

MaCloud1032
01-08-2008, 11:38 AM
<p>You are aware that in T8 most wizzy/locks have about 10k power and 6k health.  Toss in mana shield and they are sitting at around 21k health. More than double my HP as a tank. An x4 couldnt chew thru that in 3 sec.Currently the only casters that realy need help are summoners and croud control with the summoners needing the most.  Yes i know how the resists are borked iam a SK all i do is cast.  My group taunt alone has 3 checks before it hits.  Disruption/ordination/aggression thats before it hits there magic/mental/diesese resists.  i also have a taunt shield that doesnt taunt.  My medium nuke hits harder than my Death touch on average in pvp.</p><p>I can talk broke game all day with the casters because iam right there with them.  But don't give casters with mana shield another boost.  They dont need it stick with necros, conj, illy, and coer.</p><p>edited for wrong numbers.</p>

Dh
01-08-2008, 12:42 PM
<p>My Wizard has 9k Power and 6.5k Health</p><p>(9k X 1.5manashield)=13.5k + 6.5k = 20k HPs if you don't cast any spells to waste power (resisted spells still waste power). If you do cast any spells, they will be resisted 80% of the time in t8 so this number will go down. A tank has less than 20k HP but he has combat arts to stun/stifle/knockback that land almost everytime and prolong his life. The tank will live much longer with less hitpoints. A melee class beating / knocking back a sorcerer with long cast times and rediculous resists rarely gets anything off and when they do, it is almost guaranteed resist right now. </p><p>Outright resists in t8 PVP needs to be fixed asap.</p>

Roald
01-08-2008, 01:04 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You are aware that in T8 most wizzy/locks have about 10k power and 6k health.  Toss in mana shield and they are sitting at around 26k health. More than double my HP as a tank. An x4 couldnt chew thru that in 3 sec.Currently the only casters that realy need help are summoners and croud control with the summoners needing the most.  Yes i know how the resists are borked iam a SK all i do is cast.  My group taunt alone has 3 checks before it hits.  Disruption/ordination/aggression thats before it hits there magic/mental/diesese resists.  i also have a taunt shield that doesnt taunt.  My medium nuke hits harder than my Death touch on average in pvp.</p><p>I can talk broke game all day with the casters because iam right there with them.  But don't give casters with mana shield another boost.  They dont need it stick with necros, conj, illy, and coer.</p></blockquote>10+5+6=26??!?

MaCloud1032
01-08-2008, 01:09 PM
sorry used the pve mana shield at 2x your power pool should be 21k still double what i got.  And i clip just as my resists as any mage.

Bloodfa
01-08-2008, 01:13 PM
Charmers & Summoners need some love.  Nukers are just fine.  When a Druid and 2 Warlocks can wtfpwn a full group including 2 Druids and stay standing afterwards, they are doing just fine in PvP.  The token vendors are their cousins. 

zorros
01-08-2008, 03:54 PM
My illusionist is a free token machine atm. We soley rely on either spell shield procing (which atm doesnt seem to be very often at least for me) or mez sticking which also doesnt seem to happen much. Resists are very much out of whack imo

Vydar
01-08-2008, 08:03 PM
Resist stats need to boost your mitigation, not your outright resist rate.Mitigation is all borked atm, and needs a re tweak as well.  Fix mitigation, and make resist stats mitigation based, not outright resist based.

Quinath
01-08-2008, 10:33 PM
<p>I can't speak for the other caster classes, but Warlocks are doing just fine in T8.</p><p> <a href="http://files.filefront.com/verdellwmv/;9399182;/fileinfo.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/verdellw...;/fileinfo.html</a></p>

BWLeeEllison
01-08-2008, 11:38 PM
<cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't speak for the other caster classes, but Warlocks are doing just fine in T8.</p><p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/verdellwmv/;9399182;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/verdellw...;/fileinfo.html</a></p></blockquote><b><i><span style="font-size: large;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH <span style="font-size: small;">That has to be the best pvp vid I have ever seen <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</span></span></i></b>

Quinath
01-09-2008, 12:04 AM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't speak for the other caster classes, but Warlocks are doing just fine in T8.</p><p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/verdellwmv/;9399182;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/verdellw...;/fileinfo.html</a></p></blockquote><b><i><span style="font-size: large;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH <span style="font-size: small;">That has to be the best pvp vid I have ever seen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />.</span></span></i></b></blockquote>Thanks! I should make more then!  That was all at level 75, you can see my tiny exp bar in the lower right, all those fights happened in the same 24-hour period iirc.  I need to remember to fraps more often. =)

Dh
01-09-2008, 12:27 PM
<p>Double post</p>

Dh
01-09-2008, 12:27 PM
<p> <cite>Quinath wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can't speak for the other caster classes, but Warlocks are doing just fine in T8.</p><p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/verdellwmv/;9399182;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/verdellw...;/fileinfo.html</a></p></blockquote><p>Grats beating bots 11 levels lower than you in Sinking Sands and a melee'n Ranger in defense stance in Rilis? Skills =P</p>

Roald
01-09-2008, 12:50 PM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't speak for the other caster classes, but Warlocks are doing just fine in T8.</p><p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/verdellwmv/;9399182;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/verdellw...;/fileinfo.html</a></p></blockquote><b><i><span style="font-size: large;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH <span style="font-size: small;">That has to be the best pvp vid I have ever seen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />.</span></span></i></b></blockquote>I could make a video of me killing bots and orange noobs (if i had fraps that is) and it wouldn't make coercers OP, or mean that resists are fine.

BWLeeEllison
01-09-2008, 12:57 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't speak for the other caster classes, but Warlocks are doing just fine in T8.</p><p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/verdellwmv/;9399182;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/verdellw...;/fileinfo.html</a></p></blockquote><b><i><span style="font-size: large;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH <span style="font-size: small;">That has to be the best pvp vid I have ever seen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">.</span></span></i></b></blockquote>I could make a video of me killing bots and orange noobs (if i had fraps that is) and it wouldn't make coercers OP, or mean that resists are fine.</blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I love how people automatically call anyone that gets killed in a video a bot or a newb.  Prove it, I say.  Unless the target in the video is 100% clearly afk, the kill is good.  That and the hosing he gave em was cool <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b>

Roald
01-09-2008, 04:00 PM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't speak for the other caster classes, but Warlocks are doing just fine in T8.</p><p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/verdellwmv/;9399182;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/verdellw...;/fileinfo.html</a></p></blockquote><b><i><span style="font-size: large;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH <span style="font-size: small;">That has to be the best pvp vid I have ever seen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">.</span></span></i></b></blockquote>I could make a video of me killing bots and orange noobs (if i had fraps that is) and it wouldn't make coercers OP, or mean that resists are fine.</blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I love how people automatically call anyone that gets killed in a video a bot or a newb.  Prove it, I say.  Unless the target in the video is 100% clearly afk, the kill is good.  That and the hosing he gave em was cool <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></span></b></blockquote><p>I don't doubt the guy is a very skilled warlock, but when a ranger fights a mage in defensive stance, something is going wrong.</p><p>I would like to see another video when the guy is 80, and is fighting with all his gear/spells and against good white cons</p>

Quinath
01-13-2008, 08:37 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Quinath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I can't speak for the other caster classes, but Warlocks are doing just fine in T8.</p><p> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/verdellwmv/;9399182;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">http://files.filefront.com/verdellw...;/fileinfo.html</a></p></blockquote><b><i><span style="font-size: large;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH <span style="font-size: small;">That has to be the best pvp vid I have ever seen <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">.</span></span></i></b></blockquote>I could make a video of me killing bots and orange noobs (if i had fraps that is) and it wouldn't make coercers OP, or mean that resists are fine.</blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I love how people automatically call anyone that gets killed in a video a bot or a newb.  Prove it, I say.  Unless the target in the video is 100% clearly afk, the kill is good.  That and the hosing he gave em was cool <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></span></b></blockquote><p>I don't doubt the guy is a very skilled warlock, but when a ranger fights a mage in defensive stance, something is going wrong.</p><p>I would like to see another video when the guy is 80, and is fighting with all his gear/spells and against good white cons</p></blockquote>Fwiw, the ranger was not in defensive stance. It's hard to see in the compressed quality of the video, but i just checked the raw footage and his arrow flurry buff is on the whole fight, just to the left of the sprint icon.

Magic8Ba
01-13-2008, 08:55 PM
<cite>caliburns wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>For awhile now all casters have been put to the side while melee classes have been buffed given new and better high resist gear while the casters have been given nothing but lower damage and Insane resist rate, This is utterly unfair, While the scouts can easily do out dps we struggle to even get a hit to land(pvp) our casts are so slow that we cant even cast them once we are pounded on(perma interrupted), and root is worthless, if they are not immune it resists if it isn't resisted it lasts 2 sec or is cured by a potion making them immune for 30 secs.  </i></p><p><i>Caster DPS isn't all that now days any way, what we cast for 5 sec to achieve scouts can do in 2 sec flat, heck even level 80 furies can do near to out damage now, they can even heal snare and buff.</i></p><p><i>It feels like SoE is trying to phase out all casters or make them so worthless that they Have to group to even think about pvp, Casters have next to No defence, manna shield(sorcerers) at level 80 keeps you alive for less then 3 secs.</i></p><p><i> Some thing needs to be done.</i></p><p><i>Give us better gear, give us, and I mean all casters better defence, take a note from Wow, give us a blink. its already in the game, why not give it to us as a spell that can be used more often.</i></p><p><i>Give us any thing!</i></p></blockquote>Some one say give em Blink?I had to respec to the wis line just so I can land my mezz in pvp... naw - not broken...Every spell I cast has a potion that can cure it... naw - not broken ...My L80 'special' spell? I can't cast on myself or even my pet - hell, at least i could do that with Time Compression and Illusonary Arm - naw - not broken...The next time you think you're all that in pvp - just remember it's the game mechanic that makes it so... If we were to use the arena rule set it would be a whole different ball game... we all know who's at the top of the food chain in there....- Blink

Oneira
01-14-2008, 04:02 AM
<cite>Magic8Ball wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>caliburns wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>For awhile now all casters have been put to the side while melee classes have been buffed given new and better high resist gear while the casters have been given nothing but lower damage and Insane resist rate, This is utterly unfair, While the scouts can easily do out dps we struggle to even get a hit to land(pvp) our casts are so slow that we cant even cast them once we are pounded on(perma interrupted), and root is worthless, if they are not immune it resists if it isn't resisted it lasts 2 sec or is cured by a potion making them immune for 30 secs.  </i></p><p><i>Caster DPS isn't all that now days any way, what we cast for 5 sec to achieve scouts can do in 2 sec flat, heck even level 80 furies can do near to out damage now, they can even heal snare and buff.</i></p><p><i>It feels like SoE is trying to phase out all casters or make them so worthless that they Have to group to even think about pvp, Casters have next to No defence, manna shield(sorcerers) at level 80 keeps you alive for less then 3 secs.</i></p><p><i> Some thing needs to be done.</i></p><p><i>Give us better gear, give us, and I mean all casters better defence, take a note from Wow, give us a blink. its already in the game, why not give it to us as a spell that can be used more often.</i></p><p><i>Give us any thing!</i></p></blockquote>Some one say give em Blink?I had to respec to the wis line just so I can land my mezz in pvp... naw - not broken...Every spell I cast has a potion that can cure it... naw - not broken ...My L80 'special' spell? I can't cast on myself or even my pet - hell, at least i could do that with Time Compression and Illusonary Arm - naw - not broken...The next time you think you're all that in pvp - just remember it's the game mechanic that makes it so... If we were to use the arena rule set it would be a whole different ball game... we all know who's at the top of the food chain in there....- Blink</blockquote>Hear hear.  I've realized that it requires consummate skill to have even a chance at winning with an illy in pvp.  Meanwhile, no matter how good I play it, that bozo wizard, warlock or fury just needs about 5 or 7 seconds of opportunity to hit 2 buttons, their 2 biggest nukes and guess what?  I'm pretty much dead.  Maybe when I get spell reflection things will change.  I'm somewhat sceptical. 

Kru
01-14-2008, 05:16 AM
<cite>caliburns wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>For awhile now all casters have been put to the side while melee classes have been buffed given new and better high resist gear while the casters have been given nothing but lower damage and Insane resist rate, This is utterly unfair, While the scouts can easily do out dps we struggle to even get a hit to land(pvp) our casts are so slow that we cant even cast them once we are pounded on(perma interrupted), and root is worthless, if they are not immune it resists if it isn't resisted it lasts 2 sec or is cured by a potion making them immune for 30 secs.  </i></p><p><i>Caster DPS isn't all that now days any way, what we cast for 5 sec to achieve scouts can do in 2 sec flat, heck even level 80 furies can do near to out damage now, they can even heal snare and buff.</i></p><p><i>It feels like SoE is trying to phase out all casters or make them so worthless that they Have to group to even think about pvp, Casters have next to No defence, manna shield(sorcerers) at level 80 keeps you alive for less then 3 secs.</i></p><p><i> Some thing needs to be done.</i></p><p><i>Give us better gear, give us, and I mean all casters better defence, take a note from Wow, give us a blink. its already in the game, why not give it to us as a spell that can be used more often.</i></p><p><i>Give us any thing!</i></p></blockquote>I couldn't help but say something.  But....RoK gave so much love to healers/clothies it's not even funny.  I solo quested every single quest in Kylong, Fens, Jungle, and Jarsath.  99% of all the rewards I was given, or had to choose from, had either +spell damage, +heal, or something geared towards casters.  Not to even mention stoneskin items that have given casters such a huge advantage that they never had before RoK.  There's so much caster/healer gear compared to melee gear, it's pure ridiculousness.

BWLeeEllison
01-14-2008, 05:31 AM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote>I couldn't help but say something.  But....RoK gave so much love to healers/clothies it's not even funny.  I solo quested every single quest in Kylong, Fens, Jungle, and Jarsath.  99% of all the rewards I was given, or had to choose from, had either +spell damage, +heal, or something geared towards casters.  Not to even mention stoneskin items that have given casters such a huge advantage that they never had before RoK.  There's so much caster/healer gear compared to melee gear, it's pure ridiculousness.</blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">All true.  I was kinda [Removed for Content] off at all the caster stuff I was gettin from questing and as mob drops.  I was like "Where the hell is my gear?"  I would be willing to part with some of the caster stuff I have that is tradable just to see someone realize casters got more than lovin from SoE in this expansion.  I didn't really start getting significant gear upgrades until I was on the last of my KP quests and starting the ones in FoN</span></b>

Dreamo
01-14-2008, 05:36 AM
<p>Though this is all true what OP mentioned in this post in the long run it doesn't really matter. Here is why I think it is so:</p><p>In previous expansions your class inherent abilities provided about 70% to your character's performance and the rest 30% came from gear. The gear in previous expansions though made your character stronger but it couldn't compare to upgrading your spells from ad3 to M1 for example.</p><p>In RoK there has been a shift towards more gear oriented system. For example for scouts upgrading ad3 to M1 doesn't really improve dps that much. But getting a better weapon can improve dps tremendously because autoattack now does way more dps than CAs.</p><p>The same applies to mages. A naked mage with good spells is still very vulnurable. But give him/her all those stoneskin items, manadrain procs, damage shields, +spell crit chance and +spell damage and this mage will become unbeatable. Yes there are resists. But it will take you a while to kill a mage with stacked stoneskin procs and finally he will land a spell on you and you are dead.</p><p>I am not making it out of nothing. I have a summoner and a scout myself. On my swash with a good weapon which hits for 1.2-1.6k in pvp I still have very little chances against a warlock or a wizard with stacked stoneskin procs. What is this damage good for if it is absorbed almost every hit.</p><p>If you are below lvl 80 grind up, farm instances for all these items. The new gear gives more benefits to mages than to melee classes.</p>

Oneira
01-14-2008, 06:13 AM
<cite>Kruhl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>caliburns wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>For awhile now all casters have been put to the side while melee classes have been buffed given new and better high resist gear while the casters have been given nothing but lower damage and Insane resist rate, This is utterly unfair, While the scouts can easily do out dps we struggle to even get a hit to land(pvp) our casts are so slow that we cant even cast them once we are pounded on(perma interrupted), and root is worthless, if they are not immune it resists if it isn't resisted it lasts 2 sec or is cured by a potion making them immune for 30 secs.  </i></p><p><i>Caster DPS isn't all that now days any way, what we cast for 5 sec to achieve scouts can do in 2 sec flat, heck even level 80 furies can do near to out damage now, they can even heal snare and buff.</i></p><p><i>It feels like SoE is trying to phase out all casters or make them so worthless that they Have to group to even think about pvp, Casters have next to No defence, manna shield(sorcerers) at level 80 keeps you alive for less then 3 secs.</i></p><p><i> Some thing needs to be done.</i></p><p><i>Give us better gear, give us, and I mean all casters better defence, take a note from Wow, give us a blink. its already in the game, why not give it to us as a spell that can be used more often.</i></p><p><i>Give us any thing!</i></p></blockquote>I couldn't help but say something.  But....RoK gave so much love to healers/clothies it's not even funny.  I solo quested every single quest in Kylong, Fens, Jungle, and Jarsath.  99% of all the rewards I was given, or had to choose from, had either +spell damage, +heal, or something geared towards casters.  Not to even mention stoneskin items that have given casters such a huge advantage that they never had before RoK.  There's so much caster/healer gear compared to melee gear, it's pure ridiculousness.</blockquote>I think we've got two trends in t8 that give us the worst of both worlds.  Casters have a legit complaint because resistances have gone through the roof.  The amount of spells getting resisted is just insane, whereas melee auto attack damage, which never misses, has gone up.  That the devs do not see any problem with the resist rates, so I am told, just makes matters worse.On the other hand, Sorceror nukes do so much freaking damage that when the +spell damage gear is added on there, and when manashield is figured in, the stoneskin procs are put on top of that, that wizzies and warlocks have the potential to be absolute beasts.  Were it not for the high resist rates, sorcerors would kill everybody.These two things have thrown the whole endgame out of whack.  That turns those of us who  play summoners and enchanters into classes that cannot hold a candle to sorcerors.  Sorcerors can destroy you, but the rest of the mage classes (minus Coercers with a certain pet that is also way out of whack) get destroyed. 

Elephanton
01-14-2008, 07:59 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My Wizard has 9k Power and 6.5k Health</p><p>(9k X 1.5manashield)=13.5k + 6.5k = 20k HPs if you don't cast any spells to waste power (resisted spells still waste power).</p></blockquote><p>You forgot to count your your 40% mitigation here.It is 33K HP with mitigation taken into account.</p>

Quinath
01-14-2008, 12:08 PM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My Wizard has 9k Power and 6.5k Health</p><p>(9k X 1.5manashield)=13.5k + 6.5k = 20k HPs if you don't cast any spells to waste power (resisted spells still waste power).</p></blockquote><p>You forgot to count your your 40% mitigation here.It is 33K HP with mitigation taken into account.</p></blockquote>Err, no. He's talking about the real hitpoints available by casting manashield. 20k is 20k, unless you want to say a guardian with 12k hitpoints REALLY has 18.5k with mitigation taken into account. :/