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glim3mer
01-07-2008, 03:59 PM
<p>If you remove Track, take it out of the equation and assume for one minute it doesn't exist. What classes are then really strong/overpowered/hard to beat in PvP and in what tiers and why?</p><p> Im curious, because a lot of people are saying Track is what makes things unbalanced, but Im wondering beyond that ability, what classes shine in PvP.</p>

Bloodfa
01-07-2008, 04:40 PM
<p>Some folks will say "Tracking is overpowered" because certain classes beat them more often than not.  It leads them to their target unfailingly.  It can track across the entire map.  It always lets you know where the enemy is.  If those players rolled a scout, they'd realize it doesn't work that way, but then who wants to play a scout for 50 or 60 levels just to learn something for themselves.</p><p>Rogues are top for scout class.  Ranger & Assassin for massive burst damage but a harder fight if they don't drop their opponent right off.  They're semi-squishy.  Rogues get chain, and are all about the up-close & in-your-face fight.  Bards ... man, I don't know how you guys do it.  I've seen a few very well played ones out there that will win 9 out of 10, and that's a tough class to play.</p><p>Druids are tops for the healer class, as they can lay down a lot of damage while healing.  Other healers can shine, but they need to actually know what they're doing.  Druids are much easier to play right out of the box, which is why my Templar stays in town making jewelry.</p><p>Shadowknight for Evil tank types, Berzerker for Good tanks.  SK's have their **** Touch line, which I believe has a range of 35 and lays down a lot in 1 shot.  Berzerkers for the good side, because ... well, I don't see a lot of end-game Paladins out there, but I do see more than a few Zerkers.  Monks and Bruisers are monsters in PvP, but harder to play, so again, there aren't too many of them.</p><p>Warlock then Wizard for mage class.  Charmers and Summoners don't hold a candle to them.  When the game first came out, everybody (not everybody, really, it just seemed like it was) on the Freeport side was an Assassin or Bruiser.  Very early on, there was a bug with Necromancer pets, where one pet would summon more pets, and those pets would tear through an entire group of <b><u>reds</u></b> in 2 seconds flat.  Suddenly there was a massive flood of Necro's on the server.  The result?  When it got fixed, they got nerfed.  They've never gotten fixed back, I think.  Warlocks and Wizards level up fast (there's a reason farmers have them as the class of choice), and can 1 or 2 shot most NPC's.  Throw in Manashield, even if it only buys them a couple of seconds, it's usually all that's needed to nuke the bejezus out of anyone.  There are bot's out there with PvP gear, go figure that out.  If all magic users were given a one-time class respec, regardless of starting tree, you'd see half of the non-nuke types jump over to nukers, and the tracking issue would cease to be. </p><p>Every Archetype has an Alpha.  It's not usually somebody who's playing one of the Alpha's complaining about the other classes.  It's the Beta or Omega classes.</p>

Csky
01-08-2008, 11:44 PM
tracking is retardedly OP in PVP

HerbertWalker
01-09-2008, 12:24 AM
It wouldn't be OP if you let only bards have it.   Or only guardians.

Taldier
01-09-2008, 01:21 AM
<cite>glim3mer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you remove Track, take it out of the equation and assume for one minute it doesn't exist. What classes are then really strong/overpowered/hard to beat in PvP and in what tiers and why?</p><p> Im curious, because a lot of people are saying Track is what makes things unbalanced, but Im wondering beyond that ability, what classes shine in PvP.</p></blockquote><p>If you want an honest answer.</p><p>Not much would change....even without track scouts are up near the top of the ladder in pvp.  Thats not saying they are overpowered they are simply an archtype that tends to do very well in pvp.  If track were removed the ones who would really get hurt are the bards.  It would probably knock them down pretty close to the bottem in terms of solo pvp.</p><p>That aside.....before this thread turns into another argument I'll reiterate what I tried to say in another thread.  Removing track is a very bad idea.  Nerfing track is a very bad idea.  Track needs fixed.</p><p>Make it so that it isnt so inconsistant and scouts can rely on it to tell them when someone enters a certain range.  Then remove the ability to track people cross-zone with the mapview.  </p><p>As it is track is hit or miss, scouts complain that it often doesnt update fast enough, meanwhile it can be ridiculously used to follow someone for hours from across a zone.</p><p>It doesnt need to be removed or nerfed, the basic mechanic of it just needs to be fixed so that it does what it is intended to do: tell scouts what direction any nearby enemies are in.</p>

Csky
01-09-2008, 02:25 AM
<p>it shouldnt work on players</p><p>eq was a PVE game to start and PVP was put in later tracking is a PVE designed ability that is grossly abused and OP in PVP</p>

Amphibia
01-09-2008, 02:30 AM
Track is very powerful in PvP, but overpowered? Only when combined with evac. I actually hope they leave tracking alone, because someone should have it. Without tracking, it will be horribly difficult for <u>anyone</u> to find PvP. The upcoming writ system will hopefully make grouping worthwhile even for scouts, so maybe that will balance things out a little. Now if they could only get rid of that [Removed for Content] fame system that makes everyone run like chickens all the time, too.....

Sightless
01-09-2008, 02:57 AM
<p>Each time I kill someone who doesn't use both See Stealth and See Invisibility it pains me. Because I know it's these people who will be here crying nerf. I used to spend as much as two platinum, sometimes five platinum a day on clickables: Potions, Poisons, Totems, Arrows, looted items, (treasured gear to get) miracles/blessings , and Tinkered items. Now I use goggles that give me permanent See Stealth + See Invis, which minimizes the money I have to spend.</p><p>Scouts go out of their way to ensure they have a wide variety of gear, and items to use in order to gain the upperhand on anyone they encounter solo. Yet other classes refuse to use all the stuff available in the game to compete, instead they want Sony to beat the other players for them, by making the game as easy as possible for them.</p><p>I just don't get it. I don't even use half the stuff on my Warlock I do on my Ranger, and I feel near invincible on my Warlock. But, at 65 I'm going to start carrying everything on my Warlock I do my Ranger. And I don't feel like I need track on my Warlock, but I feel very vulnerable without it on my Ranger.</p>

Sightless
01-09-2008, 02:59 AM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>it shouldnt work on players</p><p>eq was a PVE game to start and PVP was put in later tracking is a PVE designed ability that is grossly abused and OP in PVP</p></blockquote>Take track out of the game, and you'll be here crying that you can't find, or stop scouts from dogging your group and whiping it while you're fighting mobs. At least now you can put a tracker in your group to give you a warning if enemies are near. Please take out track and I assure you my Ranger will jump for joy as full groups pull tough mobs, and I'm killing them.

Vydar
01-09-2008, 05:13 AM
Gotta have a topic to whine about every update.  This is the flavor of the month whine.  Pass the cheese everyone.

Spyderbite
01-09-2008, 05:38 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pass the cheese everyone.</blockquote>I resent that! *tosses a wedge of cheddar at  Vydar*Here's my thing with the whole "Oh no! He found me! I must lay down and die cause I wasn't paying attention and didn't see him come running for the last 30 seconds across my screen" fiasco.So what?! I've browsed through the past posts of many of the advocates of "remove tracking" and noticed that a lot of them also have griped about "not enough PvP" too.So.. you're [Removed for Content] because you can't find enough PvP. But, when PvP comes looking for you, then it's not fair? How much easier do you want it short of dropping tokens in your Inventories while you're logged out?!Its not like you can't see a scout coming. Everyone over the level 8 can see a stealthed player. Sheesh. There is no difference between somebody who tracked you and somebody who just happened to roll in to the same vicinity as you and hit their closest target hot key.As for those who say "well they get more tokens cause they can pick their fights!"... Roll a scout or stop hanging out in the most remote part of a zone where nobody will find you. I can hide in my closet all day long and claim that nobody will hire me for a job I'm qualified for. If you want more tokens.. go where the PvP is.. don't hide yourself away and then come and cry cause a scout tracked you down. At that point, you're just asking for a nerf so that you have the option of going AFK. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Knock it off with the "unfair advantage" crap.

glim3mer
01-09-2008, 07:26 AM
<p>Please dont highjack my thread. I dont know why some of you are attacking tracking or defending it or arguing about it, this was not what I was asking when I posted. I dont care what you think about tracking, I was asking, if tracking did not exist, then what class(es) would be great at pvp or perhaps even stronger then others. Its a hypothetical question and the reason I ask it, is because a lot of people when they are asked what class is good for PvP, they simply say scouts/rouges cause of tracking. So I want to see what people say about pvp classes if tracking dint exist.</p><p> I hope this clears up the confusion that some of you might have in regards to my original post.</p><p> Now, someone said that rogues are still at the top even if tracking dint exist. Im wondering why that is so, since I would think that a healer class or maybe even a burst dps class like ranger/sorcerers would be better. What do you think?</p>

Dalwar
01-09-2008, 08:22 AM
Which one overpowered ? The that have : 1) Track 2) Evac 3) Can do high dmg in short time Ahh... swashy/brigand <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Scan area find opponent be sure that no one alse will involve in fight invis stelath now wait for best moment ... ahh poor noob involve in fight with mobs gank him now ... loot token track find another one ... When you asking about the overpowered class you cant think about clear fights where / when you got time to get ready for it... think about multiple times you get ganked by scouts when you was in fight with other freep or mobs ... why because easy mode abbility allowed them to find you ...

Urgol
01-09-2008, 09:56 AM
If track gets the nerf bat bruisers will move from #2 to #1

Amphibia
01-09-2008, 10:13 AM
<cite>Urgol wrote:</cite><blockquote>If track gets the nerf bat bruisers will move from #2 to #1</blockquote>It won't get nerfed. Why? Because without any kind of track, finding PvP will become so difficult and time consuming that most people probably wouldn't bother at all. Nobody likes to roam around for hours without finding anything. I'd much rather prefer that track is kept the way it is now - even if it is unfair, and instead try to encourage scouts to group more. We'll see soon how this whole writ thing pans out.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Csky
01-09-2008, 03:26 PM
<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Urgol wrote:</cite><blockquote>If track gets the nerf bat bruisers will move from #2 to #1</blockquote>It won't get nerfed. Why? Because without any kind of track, finding PvP will become so difficult and time consuming that most people probably wouldn't bother at all. Nobody likes to roam around for hours without finding anything. I'd much rather prefer that track is kept the way it is now - even if it is unfair, and instead try to encourage scouts to group more. We'll see soon how this whole writ thing pans out.... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>thats simply not true and heres why</p><p>the only PVP that tracking promotes ATM is scouts griefing lower levels that cannot fight back or escape them for astronomical amounts of tokens in comparison to visibles and very nice kill/death ratio stats </p><p>if scouts were forced to fight people thier own level that theory might fly but they hide from people thier own level because they dont want to take any risks for thier epeeen titles/stats</p><p>the majority of scouts are nothing more than title/stats chasers who are rewarded for griefing lower levels in fights they cant possibly lose at the expense of other customers and putting tracking in groups more would do nothing more than make the server unplayable to people who arent grouped and questing because they would be griefed by numbers everywhere they went</p><p>tracking is a mistake on a pvp server and without track PC scouts would be just fine they are FAR from [Removed for Content] chars and have NP killing people</p><p>without tracking i believe scouts would still be on top but by a less margin  because they have the ability to pick and choose thier targets and they have speed and the ability to escape any unwanted PVP which most other classes do NOT have</p><p>of course the scout zerg is gonna come in and zerg the thread defending the stupid ability and say "blah blah blah my guardian/warlock or whatever has never been killed by a scout " but whatever..everyone non scout knows the ability is a BS ability that is OP in PVP and scouts would be fine without track PC and still on top..which is a joke to begin with ..a  game ruled by scout classes</p><p>im still waiting for them to zerg the thread with "law of the jungle" which was written by not only a player but a SCOUT lol</p>

Bloodfa
01-09-2008, 04:53 PM
<p>I'll explain why Rogues are still formidable, even when tracking is countered by <u>someone who can be bothered to take any sort of action to do so</u>.  We have good damage.  I know there are some out there saying that Scouts are averaging 1500 to 2000 on autoattack, but that's far from the norm (I'm usually too busy hitting all my debuffs and CA's to autoattack, but that's me).  The fact is that we are a class that compliments physical damage.  We can Stun.  We can make you "Walk the Plank", rooting you in an exposed position.  We can throw debuffs against mitigation.  We can use poisons, at end-game a few of them are stacked.  When we time it right, we can be formidable.  If we're alone, and we come upon some no0b who doesn't see us (if you're at or near endgame, and somebody catches you off-guard, admit it, it's a no0b mistake and I'm guilty of it too) we can debuff them and rush in for some nice burst damage.  This is what we're designed to do.  Get in, hit fast, hit hard, and get out before backup arrives or they regain their senses.  We use a couple of Achievement lines to do that.  Walk the Plank, end-line AP.  Sailwind, another end-line AP.  These things do not come free.  They cost us the same as a Mage getting Manashield.  Or a Warden getting Nature Walk.  Or a Monk getting Mantis Leap.  Our poisons are expensive.  As in restocking costs a couple of plat.  A Brawler, or just about any fighter class (Guardians that are out there PvPing, now <u>that's</u> hardcore) should mow down a Rogue, and up here they usually do.  A Mage should own a Rogue.  Up here, again, they usually do, and Warlocks can take down whole groups at a clip, if they've got 1 or 2 other players backing them just in case.  A well-specced and well played Healer, if they know what they're doing and it's a 1-on-1, they can win the long fight.  The main reasons people lose to a Rogue are because we are opportunists by nature, and some classes are in need of a fix.  Why face somebody toe-to-toe if you know they're probably going to beat you (Summoners and Charmers exempted), when you can get the drop on them while already engaged, probably not paying much attention, and let the NPC help you?  Nobody likes losing in an unfair fight, and that's what we specialize in; perhaps that's what ticks people off so much.  You can take my word for it, or you can spend the time to find out for yourself.  Anyone who hasn't rolled a Scout and finds them unbeatable should spend the time to play one.  And not just to T2.  You'll discover that there are plenty of ways to beat one.  And the same goes for every other class.</p><p>If you want a stand-up fight, mano a mano, chances are we will aren't going to give it to you.  Look for a plate tank for that.  We're the guys that use "questionable tactics" in a fight.  In the dojo, I 'tap' my partners/opponents with an open hand unless I'm up against the bigger guys, and I'd never hit below the belt or in the face.  On the street ... all bets are off.  </p><p>Now, even if tracking were removed, or nerfed, a decent video card and a processor less than 2 years old can let you see <u>beyond</u> the range of tracking <i>as it is today</i>, even with rendering set on Max Distance.  </p><p>By the way, most of the guides telling people how to gear up, and level up, were also written by Scouts.  They happen to apply to all of the classes.  Many of the requests for fixes to PvP also came from Scouts.  Not to mention the changing of perma-immunity to something along a 2 minute timer.  Please stop derailing every topic that includes the words "scout", "rogue", "tracking" or "stealth".  </p>

tequiero
01-09-2008, 06:59 PM
<p>Tracking is not Overpowered but its a great advantage to any class that has that much dmg and has evac, And yeas i have play ranger and assasy, Reason:</p><p>1. when you hav esomeon eon target (track) all you need to do is press M then you can see the X on the map and just follow it.</p><p>2. have rack open   follow your target see more than one person and avoid that area</p><p>3. If you are brave enough  and  follow the group  kill the mage evac away cause  it dosent take you into comabt with the group if you only   kill that person.</p><p>add all of those componest and there you go  over power class, High Dmg, Evac and track down your target  what more can you ask for. shrug</p>

tequiero
01-09-2008, 07:05 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll explain why Rogues are still formidable, even when tracking is countered by <u>someone who can be bothered to take any sort of action to do so</u>.  We have good damage.  I know there are some out there saying that Scouts are averaging 1500 to 2000 on autoattack, but that's far from the norm (I'm usually too busy hitting all my debuffs and CA's to autoattack, but that's me).  The fact is that we are a class that compliments physical damage.  We can Stun.  We can make you "Walk the Plank", rooting you in an exposed position.  We can throw debuffs against mitigation.  We can use poisons, at end-game a few of them are stacked.  When we time it right, we can be formidable.  If we're alone, and we come upon some no0b who doesn't see us (if you're at or near endgame, and somebody catches you off-guard, admit it, it's a no0b mistake and I'm guilty of it too) we can debuff them and rush in for some nice burst damage.  This is what we're designed to do.  Get in, hit fast, hit hard, and get out before backup arrives or they regain their senses.  We use a couple of Achievement lines to do that.  Walk the Plank, end-line AP.  Sailwind, another end-line AP.  These things do not come free.  They cost us the same as a Mage getting Manashield.  Or a Warden getting Nature Walk.  Or a Monk getting Mantis Leap.  Our poisons are expensive.  As in restocking costs a couple of plat.  A Brawler, or just about any fighter class (Guardians that are out there PvPing, now <u>that's</u> hardcore) should mow down a Rogue, and up here they usually do.  A Mage should own a Rogue.  Up here, again, they usually do, and Warlocks can take down whole groups at a clip, if they've got 1 or 2 other players backing them just in case.  A well-specced and well played Healer, if they know what they're doing and it's a 1-on-1, they can win the long fight.  The main reasons people lose to a Rogue are because we are opportunists by nature, and some classes are in need of a fix.  Why face somebody toe-to-toe if you know they're probably going to beat you (Summoners and Charmers exempted), when you can get the drop on them while already engaged, probably not paying much attention, and let the NPC help you?  Nobody likes losing in an unfair fight, and that's what we specialize in; perhaps that's what ticks people off so much.  You can take my word for it, or you can spend the time to find out for yourself.  Anyone who hasn't rolled a Scout and finds them unbeatable should spend the time to play one.  And not just to T2.  You'll discover that there are plenty of ways to beat one.  And the same goes for every other class.</p><p>If you want a stand-up fight, mano a mano, chances are we will aren't going to give it to you.  Look for a plate tank for that.  We're the guys that use "questionable tactics" in a fight.  In the dojo, I 'tap' my partners/opponents with an open hand unless I'm up against the bigger guys, and I'd never hit below the belt or in the face.  On the street ... all bets are off.  </p><p>Now, even if tracking were removed, or nerfed, a decent video card and a processor less than 2 years old can let you see <u>beyond</u> the range of tracking <i>as it is today</i>, even with rendering set on Max Distance.  </p><p>By the way, most of the guides telling people how to gear up, and level up, were also written by Scouts.  They happen to apply to all of the classes.  Many of the requests for fixes to PvP also came from Scouts.  Not to mention the changing of perma-immunity to something along a 2 minute timer.  Please stop derailing every topic that includes the words "scout", "rogue", "tracking" or "stealth".  </p></blockquote>very i agree but when a brig can keep you lock  for 10-15 seconds and WARDS can be strip away ( bad enough that takes us 3-5 seconds to can a medicore  ward that your auto  can take away) and then lower the mitigation of the player to nothing ( not like  mit matters in pvp anyways). then yeah that where i see my problem i do fairly well as a mystic  figthing  Brigs and  i win  about 50% of my figths with them. but its isance that SOE Added that much dmg for all scouit ( and mages)  and for got to raise the amout of heal we can do   its also prety sad when my adp 3 lvl 78 wards is only 32 more points high  than my lvl 67 ward  Thank you SOE for showing love to Mystic/ Defiler

zorros
01-11-2008, 01:09 PM
<cite>tequiero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll explain why Rogues are still formidable, even when tracking is countered by <u>someone who can be bothered to take any sort of action to do so</u>.  We have good damage.  I know there are some out there saying that Scouts are averaging 1500 to 2000 on autoattack, but that's far from the norm (I'm usually too busy hitting all my debuffs and CA's to autoattack, but that's me).  The fact is that we are a class that compliments physical damage.  We can Stun.  We can make you "Walk the Plank", rooting you in an exposed position.  We can throw debuffs against mitigation.  We can use poisons, at end-game a few of them are stacked.  When we time it right, we can be formidable.  If we're alone, and we come upon some no0b who doesn't see us (if you're at or near endgame, and somebody catches you off-guard, admit it, it's a no0b mistake and I'm guilty of it too) we can debuff them and rush in for some nice burst damage.  This is what we're designed to do.  Get in, hit fast, hit hard, and get out before backup arrives or they regain their senses.  We use a couple of Achievement lines to do that.  Walk the Plank, end-line AP.  Sailwind, another end-line AP.  These things do not come free.  They cost us the same as a Mage getting Manashield.  Or a Warden getting Nature Walk.  Or a Monk getting Mantis Leap.  Our poisons are expensive.  As in restocking costs a couple of plat.  A Brawler, or just about any fighter class (Guardians that are out there PvPing, now <u>that's</u> hardcore) should mow down a Rogue, and up here they usually do.  A Mage should own a Rogue.  Up here, again, they usually do, and Warlocks can take down whole groups at a clip, if they've got 1 or 2 other players backing them just in case.  A well-specced and well played Healer, if they know what they're doing and it's a 1-on-1, they can win the long fight.  The main reasons people lose to a Rogue are because we are opportunists by nature, and some classes are in need of a fix.  Why face somebody toe-to-toe if you know they're probably going to beat you (Summoners and Charmers exempted), when you can get the drop on them while already engaged, probably not paying much attention, and let the NPC help you?  Nobody likes losing in an unfair fight, and that's what we specialize in; perhaps that's what ticks people off so much.  You can take my word for it, or you can spend the time to find out for yourself.  Anyone who hasn't rolled a Scout and finds them unbeatable should spend the time to play one.  And not just to T2.  You'll discover that there are plenty of ways to beat one.  And the same goes for every other class.</p><p>If you want a stand-up fight, mano a mano, chances are we will aren't going to give it to you.  Look for a plate tank for that.  We're the guys that use "questionable tactics" in a fight.  In the dojo, I 'tap' my partners/opponents with an open hand unless I'm up against the bigger guys, and I'd never hit below the belt or in the face.  On the street ... all bets are off.  </p><p>Now, even if tracking were removed, or nerfed, a decent video card and a processor less than 2 years old can let you see <u>beyond</u> the range of tracking <i>as it is today</i>, even with rendering set on Max Distance.  </p><p>By the way, most of the guides telling people how to gear up, and level up, were also written by Scouts.  They happen to apply to all of the classes.  Many of the requests for fixes to PvP also came from Scouts.  Not to mention the changing of perma-immunity to something along a 2 minute timer.  Please stop derailing every topic that includes the words "scout", "rogue", "tracking" or "stealth".  </p></blockquote>very i agree but when a brig can keep you lock  for 10-15 seconds and WARDS can be strip away ( bad enough that takes us 3-5 seconds to can a medicore  ward that your auto  can take away) and then lower the mitigation of the player to nothing ( not like  mit matters in pvp anyways). then yeah that where i see my problem i do fairly well as a mystic  figthing  Brigs and  i win  about 50% of my figths with them. but its isance that SOE Added that much dmg for all scouit ( and mages)  and for got to raise the amout of heal we can do   its also prety sad when my adp 3 lvl 78 wards is only 32 more points high  than my lvl 67 ward  Thank you SOE for showing love to Mystic/ Defiler</blockquote>The dot amount on my master 77 spell is also around the 40 mark for more dps on the last master. You arnt the only class that was screwed in this expansion. I have 2 forms of defence Mez and spell reflect (which works on a %) im normally dead to a brig in under 2 secs as any half decent player will pop and anti stun/stifle potion and im dead.

tequiero
01-11-2008, 04:02 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tequiero wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll explain why Rogues are still formidable, even when tracking is countered by <u>someone who can be bothered to take any sort of action to do so</u>.  We have good damage.  I know there are some out there saying that Scouts are averaging 1500 to 2000 on autoattack, but that's far from the norm (I'm usually too busy hitting all my debuffs and CA's to autoattack, but that's me).  The fact is that we are a class that compliments physical damage.  We can Stun.  We can make you "Walk the Plank", rooting you in an exposed position.  We can throw debuffs against mitigation.  We can use poisons, at end-game a few of them are stacked.  When we time it right, we can be formidable.  If we're alone, and we come upon some no0b who doesn't see us (if you're at or near endgame, and somebody catches you off-guard, admit it, it's a no0b mistake and I'm guilty of it too) we can debuff them and rush in for some nice burst damage.  This is what we're designed to do.  Get in, hit fast, hit hard, and get out before backup arrives or they regain their senses.  We use a couple of Achievement lines to do that.  Walk the Plank, end-line AP.  Sailwind, another end-line AP.  These things do not come free.  They cost us the same as a Mage getting Manashield.  Or a Warden getting Nature Walk.  Or a Monk getting Mantis Leap.  Our poisons are expensive.  As in restocking costs a couple of plat.  A Brawler, or just about any fighter class (Guardians that are out there PvPing, now <u>that's</u> hardcore) should mow down a Rogue, and up here they usually do.  A Mage should own a Rogue.  Up here, again, they usually do, and Warlocks can take down whole groups at a clip, if they've got 1 or 2 other players backing them just in case.  A well-specced and well played Healer, if they know what they're doing and it's a 1-on-1, they can win the long fight.  The main reasons people lose to a Rogue are because we are opportunists by nature, and some classes are in need of a fix.  Why face somebody toe-to-toe if you know they're probably going to beat you (Summoners and Charmers exempted), when you can get the drop on them while already engaged, probably not paying much attention, and let the NPC help you?  Nobody likes losing in an unfair fight, and that's what we specialize in; perhaps that's what ticks people off so much.  You can take my word for it, or you can spend the time to find out for yourself.  Anyone who hasn't rolled a Scout and finds them unbeatable should spend the time to play one.  And not just to T2.  You'll discover that there are plenty of ways to beat one.  And the same goes for every other class.</p><p>If you want a stand-up fight, mano a mano, chances are we will aren't going to give it to you.  Look for a plate tank for that.  We're the guys that use "questionable tactics" in a fight.  In the dojo, I 'tap' my partners/opponents with an open hand unless I'm up against the bigger guys, and I'd never hit below the belt or in the face.  On the street ... all bets are off.  </p><p>Now, even if tracking were removed, or nerfed, a decent video card and a processor less than 2 years old can let you see <u>beyond</u> the range of tracking <i>as it is today</i>, even with rendering set on Max Distance.  </p><p>By the way, most of the guides telling people how to gear up, and level up, were also written by Scouts.  They happen to apply to all of the classes.  Many of the requests for fixes to PvP also came from Scouts.  Not to mention the changing of perma-immunity to something along a 2 minute timer.  Please stop derailing every topic that includes the words "scout", "rogue", "tracking" or "stealth".  </p></blockquote>very i agree but when a brig can keep you lock  for 10-15 seconds and WARDS can be strip away ( bad enough that takes us 3-5 seconds to can a medicore  ward that your auto  can take away) and then lower the mitigation of the player to nothing ( not like  mit matters in pvp anyways). then yeah that where i see my problem i do fairly well as a mystic  figthing  Brigs and  i win  about 50% of my figths with them. but its isance that SOE Added that much dmg for all scouit ( and mages)  and for got to raise the amout of heal we can do   its also prety sad when my adp 3 lvl 78 wards is only 32 more points high  than my lvl 67 ward  Thank you SOE for showing love to Mystic/ Defiler</blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">The dot amount on my master 77 spell is also around the 40 mark for more dps on the last master. You arnt the only class that was screwed in this expansion. I have 2 forms of defence Mez and spell reflect (which works on a %) im normally dead to a brig in under 2 secs as any half decent player will pop and anti stun/stifle potion and im dead.</span></blockquote><p>ok sure add the spell dmg plus 75 here plus 150 there plus spell crit here?????</p><p>then  lets see how much chain  healign armor out htere or plate  healing armor then we can talk</p>

Bloodfa
01-11-2008, 04:28 PM
<p>See, there's a couple of the problems.  Some of the classes are broken, or near-broken.  Those that are ... everybody knows them.  There are sooooo many others <u>not</u> playing a busted class that are more than willing to jump on the "nerf" bandwagon, because rather than make another class more viable, and thereby create another potential threat to them, they would prefer to see remaining classes knocked down a peg or three.  I've PvPed with you, Mice, on both sides of the fence, and I know you're no slacker.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Hell, the first time I ran with you and saw you take the lead and charge into a full group, I thought "[Removed for Content], she's freakin' nuts!"  But yeah, up here it's a different story than T7, and it does seem that the Shaman class doesn't hold up as well as it did 10 levels prior.  Fix issues with class strength and discussions like this would become a thing of the past.</p>

Taldier
01-11-2008, 05:04 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Seeing as you mentioned the problems with autoattack...</span> </p><p>I'll explain why Rogues are still formidable, even when tracking is countered by <u>someone who can be bothered to take any sort of action to do so</u>.  We have good damage.  I know there are some out there saying that Scouts are averaging 1500 to 2000 on autoattack, but that's far from the norm<span style="color: #ff0000;"> can you do a simple quest? can you get a group to kill a named mob?  it IS the norm.  Any regular pvper who can use a sword can easily autoattack for more then m2 ca's.  Add in crit and haste gear (which is everywhere now)and you can double your dps.</span></p><p> (I'm usually too busy hitting all my debuffs and CA's to autoattack, but that's me).<span style="color: #ff0000;">You do realize that autoattack goes off in between your attacks yes?  Anyone whos remotely competant can time autoattacks in between ca's.</span></p><p>  The fact is that we are a class that compliments physical damage.  We can Stun.  We can make you "Walk the Plank", rooting you in an exposed position.  We can throw debuffs against mitigation.  We can use poisons, at end-game a few of them are stacked.  When we time it right, we can be formidable.  If we're alone, and we come upon some no0b who doesn't see us (if you're at or near endgame, and somebody catches you off-guard, admit it, it's a no0b mistake and I'm guilty of it too) we can debuff them and rush in for some nice burst damage.  This is what we're designed to do.  Get in, hit fast, hit hard, and get out before backup arrives or they regain their senses.  We use a couple of Achievement lines to do that.  Walk the Plank, end-line AP.  Sailwind, another end-line AP.  These things do not come free.  They cost us the same as a Mage getting Manashield.  Or a Warden getting Nature Walk.  Or a Monk getting Mantis Leap.  Our poisons are expensive.  As in restocking costs a couple of plat.</p><p>  A Brawler, or just about any fighter class (Guardians that are out there PvPing, now <u>that's</u> hardcore) should mow down a Rogue, and up here they usually do.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">If you lose to a brawler you clearly havent gotten the easily aquired 6s and 4.5s delay weapons, if you lose to a guardian clearly he did and thats why he can autoattack you for over 1k.  </span></p><p>A Mage should own a Rogue.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Only if said rouge has absolutely no concept of how manashield works.  You cant keep a mage from hitting you for 30s? come on.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span>Up here, again, they usually do, and Warlocks can take down whole groups at a clip, if they've got 1 or 2 other players backing them just in case.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Is the entire group in handcrafted gear?  They have no resists?  When is the last time a single warlock killed a whole group of something other then bots?</span></p></blockquote><p>Making up ridiculous scenarios really doesnt help you make an argument.....a warlock killing a group?  a mage killing a rogue?</p><p>This is not to say that scouts are unbeatable, merely pointing out a clear problem with t8 melee classes.  We took away rangers ability to bow autoattack for 2-3k and instead gave nearly every melee class the ability to autoattack for the same ridiculous amounts.  If you can use a sword this is your time to shine.</p><p>This may have given plate tanks like guardians the boost they've been needing for a long time but in the hands of a class that could already do well in pvp its insane.  Perhaps the solution is to make these high delay weapons warrior/crusader only.  Or simply remove autoattack crits from pvp.</p><p>T8 seems to be far more gear based then T7 was.  Personally I see that as a problem, I always thought it was a good thing that everyone could easily compete in T7 pvp.  With T8 all I see is new imbalances and problems.  Hopefully it wont take soe long to adjust some of the things that are a bit out of line.  </p><p>Sry to derail the thread, but seeing pretty much no one has bothered to answer the op, I figured it was pretty well derailed already.</p>

Bloodfa
01-11-2008, 06:47 PM
<cite>Taldier wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Seeing as you mentioned the problems with autoattack...</span> </p><p>I'll explain why Rogues are still formidable, even when tracking is countered by <u>someone who can be bothered to take any sort of action to do so</u>.  We have good damage.  I know there are some out there saying that Scouts are averaging 1500 to 2000 on autoattack, but that's far from the norm<span style="color: #ff0000;"> can you do a simple quest? can you get a group to kill a named mob?  it IS the norm.  Any regular pvper who can use a sword can easily autoattack for more then m2 ca's.  Add in crit and haste gear (which is everywhere now)and you can double your dps. </span><span style="color: #0000ff;">Why yes, I can do a simple quest, in fact I'm in the top 10 Swashies in that area, but that's not the point, is it?  I'm on Nagafen, where I don't have the option of busting out my credit card and spending 10 plat on a single adornment, and I don't raid, so I have to rely on quest rewards.  </span></p><p> (I'm usually too busy hitting all my debuffs and CA's to autoattack, but that's me).<span style="color: #ff0000;">You do realize that autoattack goes off in between your attacks yes?  Anyone whos remotely competant can time autoattacks in between ca's. </span><span style="color: #0000ff;"> Yes, I do realize that, but as you are on a different server and don't know me, I'll simplify it for you: I'm usually the highest level character in my group, and usually the primary target (or I become the primary target after 2 seconds).  To me, that means debuff the hell out of the ones we're fighting so that the survivors can take him down.  You're at 80, so you're not fighting yellow or orange cons, but those of us that are have to fight a different fight.</span></p><p>  The fact is that we are a class that compliments physical damage.  We can Stun.  We can make you "Walk the Plank", rooting you in an exposed position.  We can throw debuffs against mitigation.  We can use poisons, at end-game a few of them are stacked.  When we time it right, we can be formidable.  If we're alone, and we come upon some no0b who doesn't see us (if you're at or near endgame, and somebody catches you off-guard, admit it, it's a no0b mistake and I'm guilty of it too) we can debuff them and rush in for some nice burst damage.  This is what we're designed to do.  Get in, hit fast, hit hard, and get out before backup arrives or they regain their senses.  We use a couple of Achievement lines to do that.  Walk the Plank, end-line AP.  Sailwind, another end-line AP.  These things do not come free.  They cost us the same as a Mage getting Manashield.  Or a Warden getting Nature Walk.  Or a Monk getting Mantis Leap.  Our poisons are expensive.  As in restocking costs a couple of plat.</p><p>  A Brawler, or just about any fighter class (Guardians that are out there PvPing, now <u>that's</u> hardcore) should mow down a Rogue, and up here they usually do.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">If you lose to a brawler you clearly havent gotten the easily aquired 6s and 4.5s delay weapons, if you lose to a guardian clearly he did and thats why he can autoattack you for over 1k.<span style="color: #0000ff;">  So you're saying Brawlers are underpowered?  That's a first.  I don't see many Guardians that high, hence the nod to them as being a hard class to play.  </span>  </span></p><p>A Mage should own a Rogue.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Only if said rouge has absolutely no concept of how manashield works.  You cant keep a mage from hitting you for 30s? come on.</span><span style="color: #0000ff;">  I have a concept.  I've done it.  I've also gotten the damned mezz broken by roaming NPC's more often than not, or been rooted out of range of the mezz, or had a groupmate pop an AOE and break it because they didn't see them get mezzed in time.  It's not the 30 seconds to kill them, it's the 10 seconds they need to AOE us.  Manashield works quite nicely, thank you, and there are more than a few players working their nuker alts up rather than concentrating on the non-manashield using classes (especially Scouts, go figure), but don't let the comments of those doing so sway you.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span>Up here, again, they usually do, and Warlocks can take down whole groups at a clip, if they've got 1 or 2 other players backing them just in case.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Is the entire group in handcrafted gear?  They have no resists?  When is the last time a single warlock killed a whole group of something other then bots?</span><span style="color: #0000ff;">  Not handcrafted, thank you very much, but definitely lower level.  Maybe things are different on Vox and Venekor, but there is a large percentage of nukers up at level 80 over here, and an 80 with 1 or 2 running interference can wipe a mid-70's group in decent gear.  Happens a lot.  Maybe it doesn't happen on your server, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen over on Nagafen.   </span></p></blockquote><p>Making up ridiculous scenarios really doesnt help you make an argument.....a warlock killing a group?  a mage killing a rogue? <span style="color: #0000cc;"> The scenario's not ridiculous, see the above statement.  Notice I didn't say comment.  A comment would imply that it's my <i>opinion</i>. <i> </i>It's not just an opinion.  </span></p><p>This is not to say that scouts are unbeatable, merely pointing out a clear problem with t8 melee classes.  We took away rangers ability to bow autoattack for 2-3k and instead gave nearly every melee class the ability to autoattack for the same ridiculous amounts.  If you can use a sword this is your time to shine.</p><p>This may have given plate tanks like guardians the boost they've been needing for a long time but in the hands of a class that could already do well in pvp its insane.  Perhaps the solution is to make these high delay weapons warrior/crusader only.  Or simply remove autoattack crits from pvp.</p><p>T8 seems to be far more gear based then T7 was.  Personally I see that as a problem, I always thought it was a good thing that everyone could easily compete in T7 pvp.  With T8 all I see is new imbalances and problems.  Hopefully it wont take soe long to adjust some of the things that are a bit out of line.  </p><p>Sry to derail the thread, but seeing pretty much no one has bothered to answer the op, I figured it was pretty well derailed already.  <span style="color: #0000ff;">I actually did answer the OP's request, you just didn't like what you read.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></span></p></blockquote>Here's a little tidbit: in the top 100 in PvP deaths for Swashbuckler, the lowest is at 767 deaths.  Top 100 in PvP deaths for Bruiser, lowest is at 587.  Most PvP kills is 15,441 for Bruiser, with second coming in at 14,536.  For Swash is 18,463, with second coming in at 14,119; they even out and are comparable after the top 2.  To me, that says something interesting: Bruisers are more survivable in a fight, even without Evac and Tracking.  I'm not saying they're overpowered, but you're looking at it from your point of view, I'm looking at it from mine. 

Taldier
01-11-2008, 07:47 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Taldier wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Seeing as you mentioned the problems with autoattack...</span> </p><p>I'll explain why Rogues are still formidable, even when tracking is countered by <u>someone who can be bothered to take any sort of action to do so</u>.  We have good damage.  I know there are some out there saying that Scouts are averaging 1500 to 2000 on autoattack, but that's far from the norm<span style="color: #ff0000;"> can you do a simple quest? can you get a group to kill a named mob?  it IS the norm.  Any regular pvper who can use a sword can easily autoattack for more then m2 ca's.  Add in crit and haste gear (which is everywhere now)and you can double your dps. </span><span style="color: #0000ff;">Why yes, I can do a simple quest, in fact I'm in the top 10 Swashies in that area, but that's not the point, is it?  I'm on Nagafen, where I don't have the option of busting out my credit card and spending 10 plat on a single adornment, and I don't raid, so I have to rely on quest rewards.  </span><span style="color: #009933;">What are you even talking about?  Vox is SE server not Venekor, and where did I mention adornments?  I also didnt mention any raid items, the high delay swords I'm talking about are easily gotten through quest/heroic content.</span></p><p> (I'm usually too busy hitting all my debuffs and CA's to autoattack, but that's me).<span style="color: #ff0000;">You do realize that autoattack goes off in between your attacks yes?  Anyone whos remotely competant can time autoattacks in between ca's. </span><span style="color: #0000ff;"> Yes, I do realize that, but as you are on a different server and don't know me, I'll simplify it for you: I'm usually the highest level character in my group, and usually the primary target (or I become the primary target after 2 seconds).  To me, that means debuff the hell out of the ones we're fighting so that the survivors can take him down.  You're at 80, so you're not fighting yellow or orange cons, but those of us that are have to fight a different fight.</span><span style="color: #009966;">  I dont see how any of that is at all relevant to your ability to autoattack.  You cant talk about class balance when your fighting someone whos orange to you.  Any issue of balance is assumed to be between people of equal lvl.</span></p><p><span style="color: #009966;">"[Removed for Content] that red con wizzy one shot me, that must make them better then scouts" rofl</span></p><p>  The fact is that we are a class that compliments physical damage.  We can Stun.  We can make you "Walk the Plank", rooting you in an exposed position.  We can throw debuffs against mitigation.  We can use poisons, at end-game a few of them are stacked.  When we time it right, we can be formidable.  If we're alone, and we come upon some no0b who doesn't see us (if you're at or near endgame, and somebody catches you off-guard, admit it, it's a no0b mistake and I'm guilty of it too) we can debuff them and rush in for some nice burst damage.  This is what we're designed to do.  Get in, hit fast, hit hard, and get out before backup arrives or they regain their senses.  We use a couple of Achievement lines to do that.  Walk the Plank, end-line AP.  Sailwind, another end-line AP.  These things do not come free.  They cost us the same as a Mage getting Manashield.  Or a Warden getting Nature Walk.  Or a Monk getting Mantis Leap.  Our poisons are expensive.  As in restocking costs a couple of plat.</p><p>  A Brawler, or just about any fighter class (Guardians that are out there PvPing, now <u>that's</u> hardcore) should mow down a Rogue, and up here they usually do.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">If you lose to a brawler you clearly havent gotten the easily aquired 6s and 4.5s delay weapons, if you lose to a guardian clearly he did and thats why he can autoattack you for over 1k.<span style="color: #0000ff;">  So you're saying Brawlers are underpowered?  That's a first.  </span></span><span style="color: #009966;">No I certainly didnt, I merely commented on the broken t8 itemization.  You cant create a few extremely powerful weapons and then limit them to only a few classes.  Whether your willing to realize it or not autoattack crit has been broken by these high delay weapons.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="color: #0000ff;">I don't see many Guardians that high, hence the nod to them as being a hard class to play.  </span>  </span></p><p>A Mage should own a Rogue.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Only if said rouge has absolutely no concept of how manashield works.  You cant keep a mage from hitting you for 30s? come on.</span><span style="color: #0000ff;">  I have a concept.  I've done it.  I've also gotten the damned mezz broken by roaming NPC's more often than not, or been rooted out of range of the mezz, or had a groupmate pop an AOE and break it because they didn't see them get mezzed in time.  It's not the 30 seconds to kill them, it's the 10 seconds they need to AOE us.  Manashield works quite nicely, thank you, and there are more than a few players working their nuker alts up rather than concentrating on the non-manashield using classes (especially Scouts, go figure), but don't let the comments of those doing so sway you.  <span style="color: #009966;">Dont you have stuns? deagros? freedom and cure potions? the ability to move? Manashield is the balance that gives mages a fighting chance, it doesnt make them better then a scout, or any melee class for that matter.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span>Up here, again, they usually do, and Warlocks can take down whole groups at a clip, if they've got 1 or 2 other players backing them just in case.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Is the entire group in handcrafted gear?  They have no resists?  When is the last time a single warlock killed a whole group of something other then bots?</span><span style="color: #0000ff;">  Not handcrafted, thank you very much, but definitely lower level.  Maybe things are different on Vox and Venekor, but there is a large percentage of nukers up at level 80 over here, and an 80 with 1 or 2 running interference can wipe a mid-70's group in decent gear.  Happens a lot.  Maybe it doesn't happen on your server, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen over on Nagafen.  </span><span style="color: #009966;">Again youre talking about 2-3 80s killing a group of green cons... what does that have to do with anything?  Why would you consider that remotely worth mentioning when the same thing has happened in every single tier?  Get to 80 and that same warlock can watch half your group outright resist most of his encounter nukes.</span></p></blockquote><p>Making up ridiculous scenarios really doesnt help you make an argument.....a warlock killing a group?  a mage killing a rogue? <span style="color: #0000cc;"> The scenario's not ridiculous, see the above statement.  Notice I didn't say comment.  A comment would imply that it's my <i>opinion</i>. <i> </i>It's not just an opinion.  </span><span style="color: #009966;">Your right it isnt an opinion its an observation that is totally irrelvant to the point at hand.  I assumed you were talking about even cons thus my statement that they are ridiculous.</span></p><p>This is not to say that scouts are unbeatable, merely pointing out a clear problem with t8 melee classes.  We took away rangers ability to bow autoattack for 2-3k and instead gave nearly every melee class the ability to autoattack for the same ridiculous amounts.  If you can use a sword this is your time to shine.</p><p>This may have given plate tanks like guardians the boost they've been needing for a long time but in the hands of a class that could already do well in pvp its insane.  Perhaps the solution is to make these high delay weapons warrior/crusader only.  Or simply remove autoattack crits from pvp.</p><p>T8 seems to be far more gear based then T7 was.  Personally I see that as a problem, I always thought it was a good thing that everyone could easily compete in T7 pvp.  With T8 all I see is new imbalances and problems.  Hopefully it wont take soe long to adjust some of the things that are a bit out of line.  </p><p>Sry to derail the thread, but seeing pretty much no one has bothered to answer the op, I figured it was pretty well derailed already.  <span style="color: #0000ff;">I actually did answer the OP's request, you just didn't like what you read.  </span><span style="color: #009966;">I never said you didnt, nor did I disagree with everything you said, I merely pointed out several glaring factual errors.</span></p></blockquote>Here's a little tidbit: in the top 100 in PvP deaths for Swashbuckler, the lowest is at 767 deaths.  Top 100 in PvP deaths for Bruiser, lowest is at 587.  Most PvP kills is 15,441 for Bruiser, with second coming in at 14,536.  For Swash is 18,463, with second coming in at 14,119; they even out and are comparable after the top 2.  To me, that says something interesting: Bruisers are more survivable in a fight, even without Evac and Tracking.  I'm not saying they're overpowered, but you're looking at it from your point of view, I'm looking at it from mine.  <span style="color: #009966;">Aside from the numbers being poorly presented, (to do it properly you need to do an average not merely looking at outliers) it is completely irrelevant to the point I was making.</span></blockquote><p>Somehow you managed to read everything I said and not understand a word of it.  The entire post was talking about a few t8 weapons that have extremely high delay which are highly available and only useable by certain classes.  It was primarily a response to your comment that 1-2k autoattacks are not the norm, I assure you they are.</p><p>I was also trying to understand how you could think rogues are inferior to every other archtype....you answered that when you explained you were comparing class balance based on fighting yellow and orange cons.</p>

zorros
01-11-2008, 08:10 PM
<p>Micegirl</p><p>ok sure add the spell dmg plus 75 here plus 150 there plus spell crit here????? then  lets see how much chain  healign armor out htere or plate  healing armor then we can talk</p><p>Ahhh so you saying you dont get gear with +70 heal here +150 heal crit there. The only thing our mystics in guild are moaning about is the crap chain gear or lack of it. </p>

HerbertWalker
01-11-2008, 09:39 PM
<p>I am still confused as to why the idea of taking track from the predator/rogue and giving track to some of the group dependent classes is never responded to when we discuss this topic.   It makes no sense roleplay-wise, but it makes all the sense in the world from a gameplay balance perspective.</p>

Csky
01-12-2008, 01:00 AM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am still confused as to why the idea of taking track from the predator/rogue and giving track to some of the group dependent classes is never responded to when we discuss this topic.   It makes no sense roleplay-wise, but it makes all the sense in the world from a gameplay balance perspective.</p></blockquote><p>because groups running around with radar would mow down every single lesser target in the zone making the game unplayable..thats a no-brainer </p><p>people dont want to pay to play a game that they are fodder in, and thats exactly what would happen to people who were ungrouped or werent running in an ideal setup..and no one wants to be forced to stand around LFG trying to get in the perfect setup</p><p>it would destroy the game</p>

Spyderbite
01-12-2008, 01:59 AM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>the only PVP that tracking promotes ATM is scouts griefing lower levels that cannot fight back or escape them for astronomical amounts of tokens in comparison to visibles and very nice kill/death ratio stats</blockquote>Before you're ever allowed to post again.. I'd like to know where you are getting your statistics excluding personal experience.The way you describe it is like the Killer Bee migration... and even as a scout.. I'm not getting an opportunity to witness these "sightings". <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Radigazt
01-12-2008, 02:54 AM
<p>Tracking is the most powerful PvP tool there is.  I don't really think anyone honestly belives otherwise.  Sure, the Scouts (well Rogues and Predators) will protest all day that it isn't, but that's really just the rabbit crying not to be thrown into the briar bush.  </p><p>Honestly, I think Bards are about where Scouts should be in general, maybe even below where they ought to be.  But let's take the other 4 classes and admit it, they're in no way balanced for a PvP server.  </p><p>Swashies are just completely overpowered to the point of being broken.  I am not going to go into depth why their laundry list of goodies makes it so, but just consider: Tankish mitigation, crazy avoidance, high hit points (not highest but high), automatic detaunts, manual detaunts, taunts that interrupt, automatic interrupts, Wizard DPS, Reach to extend mele range, huge DPS, DPS buffs, Haste buffs, poisons that do all kinds of neat things such as heal them, and Tracking and Evac.  It's not just Tracking that makes them dominant, and without Tracking I'd say Swashies would be one of the top 3 PvP classes.  Hell, if you cut a Swashy's DPS in HALF they'd still be in the top 3 PvP classes--they're that overpowered at the moment.  </p><p>Brigands--and I have one myself--are probably the 2nd most powerful class despite all the nerfs they've taken.  They may not have all the goodies that the Swashies have, but they have most of them, have great debuffs, and sick DPS.  </p><p>Rangers are very strong, and I've had my rear handed to me by Rangers more times than I can count, but they're not as OP'd as Rogues.  Rangers and Assassins are sort of all-or-nothing classes.  Either they burn you down so far that you cannot recover in time, or they run away without losing.  Something is wrong there, as the risk/reward ratio just isn't right.  </p><p>Assassins are similar to Rangers in that it's feast or famine for them too.  All four of those classes (Swashy, Brig, Ranger, and Assassin) are extremely powerful and would be near the top in PvP even without Tracking.  But, Tracking makes them dominant.  </p><p>For classes without Tracking, Wizards and Warlocks are probably tops, followed by Shadowknights, Bruisers and Monks.  After that, I'd say Inquisitors, Wardens, then Furies.  </p><p>If we were to disable PC Tracking on a PvP server, here's my list of the 15 most powerful toons in order of strength at level 80:</p><p>1.  Swashbuckler2.  Brigand3.  Warlock4.  Wizard5.  Ranger6.  Shadowknight7.  Assassin8.  Bruiser9.  Monk10. Inquisitor11. Warden12. Fury13. Berserker14. Coercer15. Illusionist</p><p>The list is obviously open for debate, but the Rogue and Predator classes would still be right up there in terms of PvP strength.  Every class can contribute in a group, but not every class can excel solo.  </p>

BWLeeEllison
01-12-2008, 04:05 AM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>it shouldnt work on players</p><p>eq was a PVE game to start and PVP was put in later tracking is a PVE designed ability that is grossly abused and OP in PVP</p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">EQ2 was a PvE game design, at launch, with an eye toward PvP.  From the get go, Sony implemented systems that would enable them to implement their PvP design without overly affecting the PvE game.  This was gone over numerous times even before the PvP went into its Beta phase.  I know, I was there.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Were we to follow your argument that tracking is a PvE ability from the start, . . . I guess we would have to remove ALL character abilities, as they were all designed for PvE.  Forget that Sony puts a little check mark on almost every ability in the game where you can check to see its effect in PvP as opposed to its effect in PvE.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">In any case, given the subject at hand, I would have to put wardens at the number one class if track were not a consideration.  They easily equal Swashbucklers and barely exceed Rangers for KvD with track in the game.  If track were not in the game, the PvP would not occur as often (but would still occur quite a bit), coming down to randomly encountering someone in the wild or as someone else put it in another thread, only the players who have played for a significant amount of time and know where all the quests, all the named mobs, all the important junk happens will have an edge that will be more potent with track gone.  The experienced players will lie in wait for people to try to get at the content that is in the game for their benefit, and will kill them off from ambush because no one can "see" how many ppl are hiding and waiting.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Druid (more specifically warden)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Ranger/Assassin (burst damage)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Wizard (burst damage)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Shadow Knight (harm touch = burst damage)</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Sans track, the classes that would dominate would be the classes with high immediate damage output (burst), typically from range.  The classes with low average DPS or DPS that could be considered paced (swash, lock, zerk, the brawler classes) would all take a back seat to the burst damage classes that can manage to get the drop on them.</span></b></p>

Spyderbite
01-12-2008, 04:10 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Tracking is the most powerful PvP tool there is.  I don't really think anyone honestly belives otherwise. </p></blockquote>I'd agree with you, but then we'd <b>both</b> be wrong.

BWLeeEllison
01-12-2008, 04:10 AM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am still confused as to why the idea of taking track from the predator/rogue and giving track to some of the group dependent classes is never responded to when we discuss this topic.   It makes no sense roleplay-wise, but it makes all the sense in the world from a gameplay balance perspective.</p></blockquote><p>because groups running around with radar would mow down every single lesser target in the zone making the game unplayable..thats a no-brainer </p><p>people dont want to pay to play a game that they are fodder in, and thats exactly what would happen to people who were ungrouped or werent running in an ideal setup..and no one wants to be forced to stand around LFG trying to get in the perfect setup</p><p>it would destroy the game</p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">You know, I am tired of hearing all this mess about track.  You want it stripped from all scout classes and given to all non scout classes apparently heheheh.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Having played Advanced Dungeons and Dragons for more than a decade before I moved on to bigger and better things, I would opt, if any change at all were made, for tracking to be removed from ALL classes EXCEPT the two classes it best suits, roelplay wise (this IS an RPG, kthx) and those two classes would be Ranger and Assassin.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">I would agree to that.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Other than a change like that, forget it please.  Have a nice day guy.</span></b></p>

Csky
01-12-2008, 05:31 AM
it doesnt belong on PVP servers on ANY class

BWLeeEllison
01-12-2008, 06:09 AM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote>it doesnt belong on PVP servers on ANY class</blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mine</a>.  No offense to you, and I am not trying to be negative in any way, form or fashion, but maybe YOU dont belong on PvP servers on any class, tbh.  Please try to stop attacking scout abilities and try to follow the discussion at hand.  It might bring enlightenment.</span></b>

Radigazt
01-12-2008, 08:31 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Tracking is the most powerful PvP tool there is.  I don't really think anyone honestly belives otherwise. </p></blockquote>I'd agree with you, but then we'd <b>both</b> be wrong.</blockquote><p>And which class is Spyderbite again?  Riiiiight, well I guess you just proved my point.  BTW, if anyone is interested search Spyderbite's posts ... the vast majority of them are about how Scouts shouldn't be nerfed in any way.  I think your opinion is clear and your viewpoint consistent accross the body of your posts.  You're a scout that doesn't want scouts nerfed ... which is exactly who I said would be defending the status quo.  </p><p>It does seem odd that when the vast majority of people not playing a Swashy, Brig, Ranger or Assassin seem to think they're overpowered and almost nobody playing those classes disagrees, that there isn't really a problem.  I don't see anyone arguing that Dirges, Troubs, Conjurors or Necros are either overpowered or have an overpowered ability that imbalances the game.  Just my opinion.  </p>

BWLeeEllison
01-12-2008, 02:38 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Tracking is the most powerful PvP tool there is.  I don't really think anyone honestly belives otherwise. </p></blockquote>I'd agree with you, but then we'd <b>both</b> be wrong.</blockquote><p>And which class is Spyderbite again?  Riiiiight, well I guess you just proved my point.  BTW, if anyone is interested search Spyderbite's posts ... the vast majority of them are about how Scouts shouldn't be nerfed in any way.  I think your opinion is clear and your viewpoint consistent accross the body of your posts.  You're a scout that doesn't want scouts nerfed ... which is exactly who I said would be defending the status quo.  </p><p>It does seem odd that when the vast majority of people not playing a Swashy, Brig, Ranger or Assassin seem to think they're overpowered and almost nobody playing those classes disagrees, that there isn't really a problem.  I don't see anyone arguing that Dirges, Troubs, Conjurors or Necros are either overpowered or have an overpowered ability that imbalances the game.  Just my opinion.  </p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">This particular thread is not about track.  It is about which classes (scout classes included) would be most powerful if track was not in the game.  It isn't about Spyderbite either.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">As I have already stated, any one of the burst damage classes would be king without track in the game.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">And no, you may not attack me as a scout player defending what is mine.  You see, I freely admit my main is a 74 swash.  For your edification, however, I will point out my other classes so that you may see that I have spent a good deal of time playing without track, and therefor, when I say I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM WITH TRACK, woll, . . . /boggle.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">74 swash/80 alch44 illie/26 weaponsmith42 conj (very powerful class btw)40 monk/46 tailor38 guardian/56 provisioner38 warden/48 sage36 swash/40 armorer33 dirge/41 woodworker32 warlock/42 jeweler24 ranger/45 carpenter22 paladin15 berserker</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Just to clarify, 4 scouts, 3 casters, 1 healer, and 4 warriors.  Yes, I play melee heavy.  Only a third of my toons are scouts.  I have put in more levels on non scouts than on scouts, so I am familiar with what goes on in game.  And yes, most of my recent posts have been in defense of my main's abilities.  It would be foolish to do otherwise.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Even though I feel the burst damage classes would own sans track, I must add that paladin's are EXTREMELY viable in PvP and can dominate if played correctly.  Moel Hotspur is perhaps one of the finest paladins on Nagafen, if not THE best.  I have watched him fight.  I have fought along side him.  Paladins own, really.</span></b><span></span></p>

Csky
01-12-2008, 02:45 PM
<p>now show the stats of your visible chars and the stats of your scout </p>

keLston
01-12-2008, 02:48 PM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>now show the stats of your visible chars and the stats of your scout </p></blockquote>Why don't you?You claimed to have a scout as your qualifier for qqing as hard as you do about them. So how bout it? Or are you still on the "people that matter" nonsense? It goes both ways.

Csky
01-12-2008, 02:53 PM
<p>i see.. all talk</p>

keLston
01-12-2008, 02:55 PM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i see.. all talk</p></blockquote>Ironic coming from you, don't you think?You continually use the special pleading logical fallacy and constantly demand proof/data from everyone else but refuse to provide the same. Classic trolling.

HerbertWalker
01-12-2008, 05:31 PM
Highest population count is what defines the overpoweredness of a class.   So it is not a debateable topic.

keLston
01-12-2008, 05:53 PM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote>Highest population count is what defines the overpoweredness of a class.   So it is not a debateable topic.</blockquote>Not true. Highest population count is indicative of easiest to learn and play at an average level. For any other conclusions, there would need to be further proof to back up that claim. If it has the highest population because of overpoweredness, then there should be a complete dominance of the top 5 for PvP leaderboards. Except the top 5 has 2 bards on it and no one tells me bards are overpowered.

HerbertWalker
01-12-2008, 06:20 PM
<p>The leaderboard measures irrelevant statistics, and then ranks based on that.   It is not very meaningful in measuring the <u>solo</u> power of a class.</p><p>OP = overplayed = overpopulated = overpowered = easiest to play</p><p>Many people agree, even though I did not provide the proof you seek.   There is no proof, only your own experiences.</p><p>When we roll new toons, and suit them up to dominate, do we roll a guardian?   With few exceptions, we don't.   My uber templar is one of those exceptions.   As uber and maxxed out as my templar is, I would be way more dominant had I done the same with a swashbuckler.   Again, no proof for you, and I don't need to convince you.   I am just telling you that I know it to be true.</p><p>I promote changes that get the "what class do I roll to suit up and dominate?", question more of a toss up amongst 20+ classes - rather than a choice bewteen a select few dominant classes.</p>

keLston
01-12-2008, 07:25 PM
If game balanced and truth about game balance was based around personal stories on PvP, everyone would have an infinite range 10k damage no cooldown attack and everyone would have 1 hitpoint with no gear.The leaderboard tracks the only statistics that can be proven in an unbiased fashion. I think conjurers are overpowered and you all are wrong about scouts and scouts need buffs badly. If personal experience is the only validating factor, why would my statement be any less true than your own? You can't. Class population is as meaningless if not more so than a KvD ratio. If I made 10000 accounts with level 1 guardians, would you suddenly agree that guardians were overpowered?

Stabbath
01-27-2008, 05:44 AM
Strange. I have two swashbucklers on a pvp server. One is lvl 75 and I think they suck. I created a monk today and it's 20 times better in pvp. It's probably going to be my new main.

Zheen
01-27-2008, 06:34 AM
There are so many threads in these forums about nerfing this or nerfing that. This kind of criticisms is not gonna be heard because it is all a bunch of complaining and mud slinging. Instead of asking the developers to take away something from the game and give them reasonable suggestions that they can add to the game. Come to think about it.. I believe +track avoidance items are already in the game.

Diaul
01-27-2008, 10:05 AM
Whilst I can understand scouts defending their class and saying that Track isnt a big deal - the fact is it gives an advantage.If you have track you can pick your fights better  - ie target those below your level to ensure victory.couple this with evac and you instantly have a toon that can gank at will and escape when the odds are against them.Im sorry but people who come here and say "scouts arent overpowered just look at the leaderboards" are trying to post against common sense.No one is saying that any class cant do well if properly geared (and runs in a good group) but to state that a scout dosent have an advantage in open world pvp is just wrong.That said im not in favour or unjustified nerf's and attempts to make all classes the same. i'd much prefer counter measures. How about giving one or two classes the ability to disappear from track for at least a short period of time. Would that not make things more interesting?

-Arctura-
01-27-2008, 11:56 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Pass the cheese everyone.</blockquote>I resent that! *tosses a wedge of cheddar at  Vydar*Here's my thing with the whole "Oh no! He found me! I must lay down and die cause I wasn't paying attention and didn't see him come running for the last 30 seconds across my screen" fiasco.So what?! I've browsed through the past posts of many of the advocates of "remove tracking" and noticed that a lot of them also have griped about "not enough PvP" too.So.. you're [Removed for Content] because you can't find enough PvP. But, when PvP comes looking for you, then it's not fair? How much easier do you want it short of dropping tokens in your Inventories while you're logged out?!Its not like you can't see a scout coming. Everyone over the level 8 can see a stealthed player. Sheesh. There is no difference between somebody who tracked you and somebody who just happened to roll in to the same vicinity as you and hit their closest target hot key.As for those who say "well they get more tokens cause they can pick their fights!"... Roll a scout or stop hanging out in the most remote part of a zone where nobody will find you. I can hide in my closet all day long and claim that nobody will hire me for a job I'm qualified for. If you want more tokens.. go where the PvP is.. don't hide yourself away and then come and cry cause a scout tracked you down. At that point, you're just asking for a nerf so that you have the option of going AFK. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Knock it off with the "unfair advantage" crap.</blockquote>(( Spyderbite for presidentSeriously, without track, scouts are just wizards without mana-shield, and longer recast timer arts with shorter ranges <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . Squishy!

Krokous
01-27-2008, 12:22 PM
<u><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #00cc00;">tracking is overpowered in combination with evac, get rid of both, for all classes</span></u>

BWLeeEllison
01-27-2008, 05:55 PM
<cite>Stabbath wrote:</cite><blockquote>Strange. I have two swashbucklers on a pvp server. One is lvl 75 and I think they suck. I created a monk today and it's 20 times better in pvp. It's probably going to be my new main. </blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">They do, but they are fun as heck to play <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></b>

Zheen
01-27-2008, 07:09 PM
<cite>Krokous wrote:</cite><blockquote><u><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #00cc00;">tracking is overpowered in combination with evac, get rid of both, for all classes</span></u></blockquote>Oh no! SOE has to listen to you now..your font is bigger than our font so you win. If you want to make your point heard than offer intelligent and informative reasons. With posts like this it will only get flamed.

KannaWhoopass
01-27-2008, 08:10 PM
<p>Do you know why scout arguments for evac and tracking , dont hold water ?</p><p>Do you know which class would be the best with no tracking ?</p><p>The same classes that are the best with it! </p><p>The fastest moving. </p><p>Stealth. </p><p>Tracking across the map . </p><p>Cant stop evac. </p><p>Snare , snare poison. </p><p>high mitigation high avoidance classes .. scouts .. </p><p>But the best part .. is without all of that .. they can still do this </p><p>(1201474372)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:52 2008] scout's Lung Bleed critically hits YOU for 460 slashing damage.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] You abandon your preparations to make camp.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] scout critically hits YOU for 1000 slashing damage.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] scout's gracelessness afflicts you.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] scout's Interrupt hits YOU for 94 slashing damage.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] You are distracted by your opponent's quick advance!(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] scout critically hits YOU for 1106 slashing damage.(1201474374)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:54 2008] scout's Kidney Stab critically hits YOU for 589 slashing damage.(1201474374)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:54 2008] scout's Heel Cut hits YOU for 247 slashing damage.(1201474375)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:55 2008] scout's Triple Blades critically hits YOU for 352 slashing damage.(1201474375)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:55 2008] scout's Triple Blades critically hits YOU for 309 slashing damage.(1201474375)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:55 2008] scout's Triple Blades critically hits YOU for 297 slashing damage.(1201474376)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:56 2008] scout's Uncanny Thrusts critically hits YOU for 653 slashing damage.(1201474376)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:56 2008] scout's Uncanny Thrusts critically hits YOU for 654 slashing damage.(1201474377)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:57 2008] You cannot change targets at this time.(1201474377)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:57 2008] scout critically hits YOU for 1452 slashing damage.(1201474377)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:57 2008] scout critically hits YOU for 1341 slashing damage.(1201474377)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:57 2008] You begin to breathe normally.</p><p>4.x second kill .. .. the best part is the double attack critical at the end for 2800 points of damage.  thats about 35% of my health in 1 second..</p><p>3800 points of auto attack damage in less than 5 seconds .. </p><p>All of the souts can argue till the cows come home.. with DPS like that .. ANY other ability .. is OP .. the fact that scouts can escape whever they want .. see whoever is comming . .and outrun most classes anyway...  well .. what else is there to say .. </p>

Csky
01-28-2008, 12:05 AM
<p>totems that make a person untrackable, woodworking could use some recipes anyway</p><p>problem solved</p>

Spyderbite
01-28-2008, 12:23 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Do you know why scout arguments for evac and tracking , dont hold water ?</p><p>Do you know which class would be the best with no tracking ?</p><p>The same classes that are the best with it! </p><p>The fastest moving. </p><p><b>Stealth.</b> </p><p>Tracking across the map .</p></blockquote>You lost me at "Stealth". <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />If you can't see a stealthed player... loosen the purse strings and spend a couple silver on totems. Stealth is a fluff ability today. It doesn't count as an argument for a class nerf.

bladechef
01-28-2008, 01:17 AM
<p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: times new roman,times;">I don't have a log file to support the coming statement, but I assure you it is no fallacy.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">Out in the wild > swashbuckler incoming, short terms going up > M1 root resisted > 29 hits in just a shade over 4 seconds... that includes weapon/armor procs, poison procs, short term procs, auto attacks and the 1100 bow hit on the way in.  4 CAs, 5 second encounter, one resist, no avoids, 29 hits taken and zero chance to cast a spell after the initial root failed.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">FTW</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #009933;font-family: Times New Roman;">track and evac are just fine.  No nerf needed, but when I get my group together and see this same fellow get hit 12-15 times in 3 seconds while he's running away and uninterruptable evac whisks him away to safety... it pisses me off (understatement)</span></b></p>

BWLeeEllison
01-28-2008, 02:31 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Do you know why scout arguments for evac and tracking , dont hold water ?</p><p>Do you know which class would be the best with no tracking ?</p><p>The same classes that are the best with it! </p><p>The fastest moving. </p><p>Stealth. </p><p>Tracking across the map . </p><p>Cant stop evac. </p><p>Snare , snare poison. </p><p>high mitigation high avoidance classes .. scouts .. </p><p>But the best part .. is without all of that .. they can still do this </p><p>(1201474372)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:52 2008] scout's Lung Bleed critically hits YOU for 460 slashing damage.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] You abandon your preparations to make camp.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] scout critically hits YOU for 1000 slashing damage.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] scout's gracelessness afflicts you.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] scout's Interrupt hits YOU for 94 slashing damage.(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] You are distracted by your opponent's quick advance!(1201474373)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:53 2008] scout critically hits YOU for 1106 slashing damage.(1201474374)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:54 2008] scout's Kidney Stab critically hits YOU for 589 slashing damage.(1201474374)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:54 2008] scout's Heel Cut hits YOU for 247 slashing damage.(1201474375)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:55 2008] scout's Triple Blades critically hits YOU for 352 slashing damage.(1201474375)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:55 2008] scout's Triple Blades critically hits YOU for 309 slashing damage.(1201474375)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:55 2008] scout's Triple Blades critically hits YOU for 297 slashing damage.(1201474376)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:56 2008] scout's Uncanny Thrusts critically hits YOU for 653 slashing damage.(1201474376)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:56 2008] scout's Uncanny Thrusts critically hits YOU for 654 slashing damage.(1201474377)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:57 2008] You cannot change targets at this time.(1201474377)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:57 2008] scout critically hits YOU for 1452 slashing damage.(1201474377)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:57 2008] scout critically hits YOU for 1341 slashing damage.(1201474377)[Sun Jan 27 17:52:57 2008] You begin to breathe normally.</p><p>4.x second kill .. .. the best part is the double attack critical at the end for 2800 points of damage.  thats about 35% of my health in 1 second..</p><p>3800 points of auto attack damage in less than 5 seconds .. </p><p>All of the souts can argue till the cows come home.. with DPS like that .. ANY other ability .. is OP .. the fact that scouts can escape whever they want .. see whoever is comming . .and outrun most classes anyway...  well .. what else is there to say .. </p></blockquote><p><img src="http://www.trainweb.org/brettrw/derail/csx/gloster/glostwreck3.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="800" height="535" /></p><p><b><span style="font-size: large;color: #0066ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">THREAD DERAILMENT IMMINENT!</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0066ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">The question, Jitter, is what do we think would be the most powerful classes if there were no track in the game.  What is your take on this please...</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0066ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">I still say it would be wizard and warden.</span></b></p>

KannaWhoopass
01-28-2008, 02:59 AM
<p>Read my post </p><p>I said the same classes that re now </p><p>Scouts </p><p>you going to argue that ? cause i have been killed 4 times today .. by swashies  and once by a ranger.. </p><p>all in less than 7 seconds .. </p><p>And that has nothing to do with track or evac .. so removing it has no bearing on the question .. its obvious </p><p>Wow my post was wrong he did almost 5000 points auto attack .. </p><p>in less than 5 seconds ... </p><p>5k auto attack ... 5 seconds... hummmm i wonder which class it would be .. </p>

Sorffats
01-28-2008, 04:11 AM
<p>I know this is kindof a derailment, but since reading all of this, I thought I'd post my opinion of how track should work.  First of all (and I'm not a scout) don't believe track should be completely taken out of pvp.  I do, however, think that it should be changed.   (Incidentally, I have posted this before in other "anti-pvptracking threads.)  This is my thoughts on how track should work.</p><p>First of all, we need to state the obvious.  It is called "track".  It isn't called "put a big X on the map and tell me exactly where my target is".  Since it is called "track", let's talk about how tracking works.   I hate to say it, but I think the way track worked in EQ1 (granted, I haven't played EQ1 since Omens of War was the new expansion) is the best and most fair way.  Not to mention, it does basically live up to the nature of what a "tracker" does.</p><p>Instead of giving you a big X on your map; complete with waypoint and a little glowing line leading you straight to the target, it should just spam you with directional information.  That is it.   Let's say Uberpvpscout_01 has his track window open, and sees pvp (let's call the pvp, "Pvpnub_00&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> on track.  Uberpvpscout_01 then clicks his little "begin tracking" button and instead of opening his map finding exactly where his target is, he is spammed with......"Pvpnub_00 is somewhere to the northwest and below you".   That's it, no big X's on the map, no waypoints, no glowing trail lines leading you straight to your target.  Just a simple message spam.  If you haven't found your target in a given amount of time...you lose the tracking of your target.  Perhaps even get a message in the spam stating something like, "You stop tracking Pvpnub_00, you have lost the tracks of your target".   This could also apply if they zoned, died before you got to them, evac'd, called, or you took too long to find them.</p><p>I believe this would fit more in tune with what a "tracker" should be.   It shouldn't be a way to have a "kick me" sign put on someone's back, but actually require some effort and work involved in tracking the target.</p><p>I realize, that when you track something or someone, scouts already get that message.  But IMO, that should be all they get.  And it should keep spamming until they either stop tracking the person, get to and engage the person, or the track time runs out.   Don't whine about spam, just make it a seperate option in chat options, and the scouts can open up a window dedicated strictly for tracking spam.</p>

BWLeeEllison
01-28-2008, 04:49 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I know this is kindof a derailment, but since reading all of this, I thought I'd post my opinion of how track should work.  First of all (and I'm not a scout) don't believe track should be completely taken out of pvp.  I do, however, think that it should be changed.   (Incidentally, I have posted this before in other "anti-pvptracking threads.)  This is my thoughts on how track should work.</p><p>First of all, we need to state the obvious.  It is called "track".  It isn't called "put a big X on the map and tell me exactly where my target is".  Since it is called "track", let's talk about how tracking works.   I hate to say it, but I think the way track worked in EQ1 (granted, I haven't played EQ1 since Omens of War was the new expansion) is the best and most fair way.  Not to mention, it does basically live up to the nature of what a "tracker" does.</p><p>Instead of giving you a big X on your map; complete with waypoint and a little glowing line leading you straight to the target, it should just spam you with directional information.  That is it.   Let's say Uberpvpscout_01 has his track window open, and sees pvp (let's call the pvp, "Pvpnub_00"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> on track.  Uberpvpscout_01 then clicks his little "begin tracking" button and instead of opening his map finding exactly where his target is, he is spammed with......"Pvpnub_00 is somewhere to the northwest and below you".   That's it, no big X's on the map, no waypoints, no glowing trail lines leading you straight to your target.  Just a simple message spam.  If you haven't found your target in a given amount of time...you lose the tracking of your target.  Perhaps even get a message in the spam stating something like, "You stop tracking Pvpnub_00, you have lost the tracks of your target".   This could also apply if they zoned, died before you got to them, evac'd, called, or you took too long to find them.</p><p>I believe this would fit more in tune with what a "tracker" should be.   It shouldn't be a way to have a "kick me" sign put on someone's back, but actually require some effort and work involved in tracking the target.</p><p>I realize, that when you track something or someone, scouts already get that message.  But IMO, that should be all they get.  And it should keep spamming until they either stop tracking the person, get to and engage the person, or the track time runs out.   Don't whine about spam, just make it a seperate option in chat options, and the scouts can open up a window dedicated strictly for tracking spam.</p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Likewise, we should remove health and power bars, replacing them with chat text spam of what you have left health and power wise, as well as what members of your group or raid members have left.   Simplifying information graphically so that people can focus on doing what they are supposed to be doing, namely fighting the environment or one another is just an unacceptable part of the game.  We need to slow everything down by forcing people to look away from what is happening in the game world, possibly missing someone ducking back around a corner, and make them read a chat window.  Ah, the good old days of text based MUDs, where everything was displayed as something to be read.  Graphics are highly over rated imho.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">But seriously....wizard...warden...right?</span></b></p>

BWLeeEllison
01-28-2008, 04:58 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Read my post </p><p>I said the same classes that re now </p><p>Scouts </p><p>you going to argue that ? cause i have been killed 4 times today .. by swashies  and once by a ranger.. </p><p>all in less than 7 seconds .. </p><p>And that has nothing to do with track or evac .. so removing it has no bearing on the question .. its obvious </p><p>Wow my post was wrong he did almost 5000 points auto attack .. </p><p>in less than 5 seconds ... </p><p>5k auto attack ... 5 seconds... hummmm i wonder which class it would be .. </p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">First, it takes more than 7 seconds to respawn.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Second, the guy obviously put his Achievement Points (AP) into his strength line, which gives him a better chance at scoring criticals, and more than likely geared himself with crit boosting equipment.  Smart man imho.  It isn't about the auto attack, its about the gear and the AP alotment.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Finally, it is about track.  Anyone who happens to catch someone, even a scout, doing something PvE related such as questing or grinding, can use the terrain to hide themselves and start nuking when the scout is about to drop into orange health, disguising their attacks for just long enough to take him down.  Tracking is more often than not used to see when some hostile PvP target is closing on your position when you are doing just that, something PvE related.  More's the time I have been on my non-tracking toons and been caught flat footed like that.  Scouts without track, especially rangers and assassins are little more than a sorceror in chain armor with less chance of interrupts and only slightly more hit points.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Scouts would most certainly not be tops if tracking was out, it would be wizards and wardens.</span></b></p>

Radigazt
01-28-2008, 02:28 PM
<p>To answer the OP's question, it's very tier dependent.  For instance, in the low tiers (T2-T4) a druid can outheal an even con scouts damage most of the time, thus the druid can heal through the initial burst, then pick his spot to kill the scout, thus in those tiers druids are very strong.  In T2 Wardens are great, T3 and T4 Furies and Wardens are great.  But after T4 things start to change, and in T6 when the scouts get all of their Ancient Teachings they shoot way past druids, thus the best are Swashbucklers, Brigands, Rangers and Assassins (in that order), and even without track, those 4 would be the best solo PvP'ers.  Wizards and Warlocks are probably stronger than druids in every tier at the moment because of Manashield.  But, enchanters and especially summoners are currently quite weak.  Of the fighter classes Monks and Bruisers are the best in almost every tier with Shadowknights being next in line, and all 3 solo quite well.  Berserkers are decent too, but Paladins and Guardians just dont' have the stopping power to excel in solo PvP, they shine in Group PvP.  Of the Priests, Wardens are probably the best in most tiers, but in T3-T5 Furies are very good as well, and in T3-T8 Inquisitors are right up there with Wardens (and better than Furies).  Templars fall behind those 3 and both the Defiler and Mystic have problems in T8 and lack stopping power in the lower tiers.  Besides the 4 golden scout classes, Dirges and Troubadors are great in T2-T4, but by T6-T8 they're two of the worst classes because they've become group buff-bots without enough DPS to get the solo job done most of the time.  Unfortunately, the current state of the game classes don't really scale well.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>Each tier really changes the dynamic of power and unfortunately, how you play your character.  For instance, a mele specced Warden is dominant in T2-T4, but it loses a lot of steam as it levels up and by T8 it's not really a great option for PvP.  While the golden 4 Scout classes combat arts are shooting their DPS through the roof, Dirge, Troubador and Warden combat arts are plateauing.  Thus, the class you've played from levels 1-50 and loved has changed significantly by level 80 and doesn't really play the same way or have the same power.  It's sad really, because people invest so much time in these classes only to have them begin to become far less effective as they level up.  It leads to a lot of dejected players to be honest.  </p><p>The rogues and predators have many great PvP tools, and the removal of track would definitely hinder them significantly, but IMHO, they'd still be the top dogs in PvP.  Their combo of mitigation + avoidance + detaunts + stealth + status effects (e.g. Stun + Mez/Root/Stifle) + evac makes them a tremendously survivable class.  They should be Tier 2 DPS, but they're not, they're front and center Tier 1 DPS with the best burst DPS in the game--enough to burst down almost everyone.  Heck, if you cut Swashy's dps in half, they'd still be one of the top 2 or 3 solo PvP classes even without track, they're that strong at the moment.  </p>

Radigazt
01-28-2008, 02:51 PM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Read my post </p><p>I said the same classes that re now </p><p>Scouts </p><p>you going to argue that ? cause i have been killed 4 times today .. by swashies  and once by a ranger.. </p><p>all in less than 7 seconds .. </p><p>And that has nothing to do with track or evac .. so removing it has no bearing on the question .. its obvious </p><p>Wow my post was wrong he did almost 5000 points auto attack .. </p><p>in less than 5 seconds ... </p><p>5k auto attack ... 5 seconds... hummmm i wonder which class it would be .. </p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">First, it takes more than 7 seconds to respawn.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Second, the guy obviously put his Achievement Points (AP) into his strength line, which gives him a better chance at scoring criticals, and more than likely geared himself with crit boosting equipment.  Smart man imho.  It isn't about the auto attack, its about the gear and the AP alotment.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Finally, it is about track.  Anyone who happens to catch someone, even a scout, doing something PvE related such as questing or grinding, can use the terrain to hide themselves and start nuking when the scout is about to drop into orange health, disguising their attacks for just long enough to take him down.  Tracking is more often than not used to see when some hostile PvP target is closing on your position when you are doing just that, something PvE related.  More's the time I have been on my non-tracking toons and been caught flat footed like that.  Scouts without track, especially rangers and assassins are little more than a sorceror in chain armor with less chance of interrupts and only slightly more hit points.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">Scouts would most certainly not be tops if tracking was out, it would be wizards and wardens.</span></b></p></blockquote><p>I disagree completely.  You make a comparison of a scout without track to a sorcerer in chain.  Well let's [Removed for Content] that little misnomer in the bud right away, cast times for sorcerers (the cloth type that you claim would be top of the PvP food chain if track were diabled) are almost all 2-5 seconeds, with a good chance to interrupt.  Rogues cast times are actually Combat Arts that can be cast while moving and are almost all 0.5 seconds.  So, if you interrupt a sorcerer you set him back 2-5 seconds, if you interrupt a rogue you set him back 0.5 seconds ... that's a major difference.  Plus, Rogues get an interrupt proc, and since they attack 5 times as often (0.5 cast times vs. 2.5 cast times) they're faaaar more likely to interrupt their foe.  Plus, they have taunts that interrupt ... and debuff while they're at it.  Plus rogues get nice debuffs and status effects on their normal attacks, far more than sorcerers get.  Then they get detaunts ... a detaunt proc and clickie detaunts that cause their foe to lose target.  They can get healing and other good stuff from their poisons.  They wear chain armor for far more mitigation than sorcerers (though Manashield does make up for this and more during it's 30 second time frame), and still have fantastic avoidance.  </p><p>If a Swashy were to get jumped by a Sorcerer in T8, here's what he'd do.  1) Resist the initial spell attempt most likely, as resists in T8 are broken, or 2) get rooted or hit for massive damage and evac to safety, 3) get hit for medium damage and then force the sorcerer into manashield then mez him and wait it out moving out of line of sight or out of range while the sorcerer is mezzed and then stay out of sight/range until his manashield was down, then trounce the sorcerer in less than 5 seconds.  </p><p>If a Swashy jumps a sorcerer, the sorcerer immediately hits manashield and the Swashy does the 1) mez/out of range uphill until manashield is down, 2) mez and run away, 3) stun and run away, or 4) burn the sorcerer down manashield and all.  But honestly, with the Swashy's ability to dominate Dirges, Troubadors, Rangers, Guardians, Paladins, Wardens, Furies, Mystics, Defilers, Coercers, Illusionists, Conjurors and Necros easily, why even bother sticking around for a fight with a Wizard or Warlock?  Avoid the tanks unless it's a Guardian or Berserker and avoid the Wizards and Warlocks and you can kill anything else solo just about.  Assassins and Brigands will give you good fights too, so no need to seek them out either, just take the easy kills, there's tons of them.  And with Track, finding the target is very easy, just fly around on Sokokars and check the typical questing locations and gank them as they quest.  Easymode tbh.  </p>

Lordrex
01-30-2008, 12:19 PM
<p>First of all, <b>tracking dosnt cover "An entire map</b>" tracking distance is the exact same distance at you could see any player not stealthed or invised with no obstructions, but it works without line of sight and through walls and floors, ect ect but not a great range.. by the time someone appears on a scouts track they are nearly within ranged attacking distance.</p><p>2nd, classes with track and stealth need it because they need to have a chance to get the jump to have a chance at winning. scout clases are based on stalking and the element of suprise. no scout will stand toe to toe with a fury or wizard/warlock for example and hope to win with resonably the same gear/skill. we need the initial suprise burst damage to equal the fight.</p><p>Guys and Gals, stop complaining about tracking,, its not overpowered by any means, its a class ability designed to complement and complete a class in the game,,</p><p>There are alot more issues in pvp balancing that are far more in need of fixing the track,(which is fine andneeds no ((fixing)),)</p><p>For instance,, No solo summoner class stands a snow-balls chance in hell of winning a pvp fight unless the player they are fighting is afk. period, end of story.</p><p>My lvl 26 conjurer dies before i can cast 1 spell every fight with MC gear,,its so bad ive named him "|Token'Vendor" cause thats what he is</p><p>anyway this if for a diffrent post but stop [Removed for Content] and moaning about tracking and evac,, both abilitys are welcome and needed.</p>

BWLeeEllison
01-30-2008, 12:24 PM
<cite>Lordrex wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>First of all, <b>tracking dosnt cover "An entire map</b>" tracking distance is the exact same distance at you could see any player not stealthed or invised with no obstructions, but it works without line of sight and through walls and floors, ect ect but not a great range.. by the time someone appears on a scouts track they are nearly within ranged attacking distance.</p><p>2nd, classes with track and stealth need it because they need to have a chance to get the jump to have a chance at winning. scout clases are based on stalking and the element of suprise. no scout will stand toe to toe with a fury or wizard/warlock for example and hope to win with resonably the same gear/skill. we need the initial suprise burst damage to equal the fight.</p><p>Guys and Gals, stop complaining about tracking,, its not overpowered by any means, its a class ability designed to complement and complete a class in the game,,</p><p>There are alot more issues in pvp balancing that are far more in need of fixing the track,(which is fine andneeds no ((fixing)),)</p><p>For instance,, No solo summoner class stands a snow-balls chance in hell of winning a pvp fight unless the player they are fighting is afk. period, end of story.</p><p>My lvl 26 conjurer dies before i can cast 1 spell every fight with MC gear,,its so bad ive named him "|Token'Vendor" cause thats what he is</p><p>anyway this if for a diffrent post but stop [Removed for Content] and moaning about tracking and evac,, both abilitys are welcome and needed.</p></blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">TY and Amen <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></span></b>

stgninja
01-30-2008, 12:39 PM
<cite>Lordrex wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For instance,, No solo summoner class stands a snow-balls chance in hell of winning a pvp fight unless the player they are fighting is afk. period, end of story.</p><p>My lvl 26 conjurer dies before i can cast 1 spell every fight with MC gear,,its so bad ive named him "|Token'Vendor" cause thats what he is</p></blockquote><p>Oh really?  I guess I was just dreaming all the times I've killed players (who weren't AFK) while solo pvping.  </p><p>BTW just because you can't PvP on your conj doesn't mean every summoner can't PvP.</p>

Oneira
01-30-2008, 12:47 PM
<cite>Lordrex wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">First of all, <b>tracking dosnt cover "An entire map</b>" tracking distance is the exact same distance at you could see any player not stealthed or invised with no obstructions, </span>but it works without line of sight and through walls and floors, ect ect but not a great range.. by the time someone appears on a scouts track they are nearly within ranged attacking distance.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300;">2nd, classes with track and stealth need it because they need to have a chance to get the jump to have a chance at winning. scout clases are based on stalking and the element of suprise. no scout will stand toe to toe with a fury or wizard/warlock for example and hope to win with resonably the same gear/skill. we need the initial suprise burst damage to equal the fight.</span></p><p>Guys and Gals, stop complaining about tracking,, its not overpowered by any means, its a class ability designed to complement and complete a class in the game,,</p><p>There are alot more issues in pvp balancing that are far more in need of fixing the track,(which is fine andneeds no ((fixing)),)</p><p>For instance,, No solo summoner class stands a snow-balls chance in hell of winning a pvp fight unless the player they are fighting is afk. period, end of story.</p><p>My lvl 26 conjurer dies before i can cast 1 spell every fight with MC gear,,its so bad ive named him "|Token'Vendor" cause thats what he is</p><p>anyway this if for a diffrent post but stop [Removed for Content] and moaning about tracking and evac,, both abilitys are welcome and needed.</p></blockquote>I think what is being referred to here is the "radar lock" ability of tracking as covering the whole map.  If you see a player with track, and you select that player, then you can virtually track them, and indeed see them across the whole zone.On point two, I think you are underestimating the power of scout classes by a lot.  The top 4 scout classes most definitely can go toe-to-toe with a wizard, warlock or fury.  They may not always win, but they will win, and a lot more than you think.  Just think of the brigand who hits the fury with dispatch + double up, etc. etc.  You don't think that fury's in trouble?  The initial surprise burst damage that scouts get from stealth attacks does not equalize, in most cases it allows them to kill their opponents so fast it's not funny.Case in point:  as an illusionist I have fought more than enough brigands and assassins to know what they can do.  I have see stealth totems running pretty much all the time, so it's a fairly rare day when one catches me totally unawares, unless i'm in the midst of a big fight.  I can, and have played things as well as possible, spacing out my mez, stun, stifle and root, even charm, trying everything to keep the scout locked down or out of range.  Even with all that and playing it right, it simply takes a small window of opportunity for that assassin, say, to hit me with his ranged attacks, which will stack 3 poisons on top of me, and suddenly, even though the assassin hasn't used one single melee attack, I've lost half my health plus poison effects.   I use everything i possibly can to win, the assassin mashes a few buttons, not even his best ones, and he goes away the winner.  It only takes a few cure potions, plus immunity timers, and he's got his opportunity.Now you may say, oh, but illusionists are a weak class in pvp.  Maybe so, but the point is that track-stealth is much more than an equalizer, it's a prevailer, so to speak.when you combine it with classes that do such high dps, have good mitigation, the use of poisons which can fetter and heal, etc. etc. I'm not saying remove track.  But we have to be clear on the advantage it brings.

BWLeeEllison
01-31-2008, 04:43 AM
<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lordrex wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">First of all, <b>tracking dosnt cover "An entire map</b>" tracking distance is the exact same distance at you could see any player not stealthed or invised with no obstructions, </span>but it works without line of sight and through walls and floors, ect ect but not a great range.. by the time someone appears on a scouts track they are nearly within ranged attacking distance.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300;">2nd, classes with track and stealth need it because they need to have a chance to get the jump to have a chance at winning. scout clases are based on stalking and the element of suprise. no scout will stand toe to toe with a fury or wizard/warlock for example and hope to win with resonably the same gear/skill. we need the initial suprise burst damage to equal the fight.</span></p><p>Guys and Gals, stop complaining about tracking,, its not overpowered by any means, its a class ability designed to complement and complete a class in the game,,</p><p>There are alot more issues in pvp balancing that are far more in need of fixing the track,(which is fine andneeds no ((fixing)),)</p><p>For instance,, No solo summoner class stands a snow-balls chance in hell of winning a pvp fight unless the player they are fighting is afk. period, end of story.</p><p>My lvl 26 conjurer dies before i can cast 1 spell every fight with MC gear,,its so bad ive named him "|Token'Vendor" cause thats what he is</p><p>anyway this if for a diffrent post but stop [Removed for Content] and moaning about tracking and evac,, both abilitys are welcome and needed.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="color: #ffffff;">I think what is being referred to here is the "radar lock" ability of tracking as covering the whole map.  If you see a player with track, and you select that player, then you can virtually track them, and indeed see them across the whole zone.</span></span></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">In order to "radar lock" someone, you have to be practically close enough to engage them, and barring the off chance of actually finding a solo target, a scout that close risks being detected by an enemy scout, solo or not.  It is far better to track lock, thereby closing the track window and close in for a peek, yet further placing onesself at even greater risk.  "Radar Lock" as you refer to it, typically happens when someone somehow manages to get wind of a scout trailing him and then bolting for some other place in the zone on autorun while they ooc for back up at a destination close to where they are running.  This is not theory, this comes from personal experience on various types of scout classes, AND various non-tracking classes where I have employed the same tactics used against me.  Tracking does not cover the entire map.  It covers a smaller area tighter around the scout's immediate vicinity.  Anyone getting "track locked" and then leaving the area quickly will remain track locked.  There are a number of solutions for this situation, at least two of which involve camping, but I won't go into those at the moment.  No, a partial solution for this (for at least two zones that still see PvP on a semi regular basis) would be to disallow use of equipment of the opposing team.  In a fashion similar to the denial of use of the bells at the docks in Commonalnds and Antonica, the griffon towers should become off limits to enemy personel.  If you can't fly off from a griffon tower, you don't have to worry that an enemy scout might follow you too closely.  There are too many things to go wrong with tracking to be making such a fuss over it.  If a caster's spell only went off when the server ticked as opposed to when the casting time was up, this could cause some serious problems for casters.  Track only updates on server ticks, and then, if the scout is too far away and not moving around the map fails to upgrade altogether.  You could very well fly/run/swim to the location your prey is shown on the map, only to have the map upgrade only when you are almost at the location.  It makes for quite amusing situations at times, frustrating in the extreme, more often than not, but amusing nonetheless.</span></b>On point two, I think you are underestimating the power of scout classes by a lot.  The top 4 scout classes most definitely can go toe-to-toe with a wizard, warlock or fury.  They may not always win, but they will win, and a lot more than you think.  Just think of the brigand who hits the fury with dispatch + double up, etc. etc.  You don't think that fury's in trouble?  The initial surprise burst damage that scouts get from stealth attacks does not equalize, in most cases it allows them to kill their opponents so fast it's not funny.</p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Rangers and assassins are the burst damage classes of the scout archetype.  Lets get this straight, right off the bat.  Dirge, troub, brig, swash, none of these are burst classes.  Dirge/troub rely on kiting technic combined with paced damage.  Swash relies on his poisons and his AA template for dealing out his paced damage, and the brig strips your defenses so that his paced damage is more intense.  Rangers/Assassins are burst damage.  Wizards are burst damage.  That's it.  Any of these 3 classes catch you flat footed, and you can pick up your armor repair bill at the nearest respawn.  All the rest of the classes use pets, buffs, heals, paced AE damage, some other trick to get their jobs done,  Burst belongs to R/A/W.  That is what burst damage does, it leaves you raw.  That mnemonic device may help you remember this fact when you lecture us further.   As for initial suprise, well yes, that is what scouts do.  All scouts.  Some it doesn't help as much as others but it is a scout thing.  Pets are not a scout thing.  Tracking, sneaking, surprising and ambushin.  All about teh scout.</span></b><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;"></span></b>Case in point:  as an illusionist I have fought more than enough brigands and assassins to know what they can do.  I have see stealth totems running pretty much all the time, so it's a fairly rare day when one catches me totally unawares, unless i'm in the midst of a big fight.  I can, and have played things as well as possible, spacing out my mez, stun, stifle and root, even charm, trying everything to keep the scout locked down or out of range.  Even with all that and playing it right, it simply takes a small window of opportunity for that assassin, say, to hit me with his ranged attacks, which will stack 3 poisons on top of me, and suddenly, even though the assassin hasn't used one single melee attack, I've lost half my health plus poison effects.   I use everything i possibly can to win, the assassin mashes a few buttons, not even his best ones, and he goes away the winner.  It only takes a few cure potions, plus immunity timers, and he's got his opportunity.</p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Apparently you aren't doing everything, otherwise you would be carrying potions to ward against poison (yes I was corrected on this), potions to cure poison DoTs, potions to heal damage, etc.  If your target assassin can use them why can you nat use them as well?</span></b>Now you may say, oh, but illusionists are a weak class in pvp.  Maybe so, but the point is that track-stealth is much more than an equalizer, it's a prevailer, so to speak.when you combine it with classes that do such high dps, have good mitigation, the use of poisons which can fetter and heal, etc. etc. I'm not saying remove track.  But we have to be clear on the advantage it brings.</p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">We must also take pains to not overstate any advantage that tracking brings to the table by not delineating the disadvantages, foibles, and quirks the skill itself suffers that tend to bring it back out of the realm of the "overpowered legendary skill everyone should have".</span></b></p></blockquote><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I hear ya stgninja.  My conjie was teh suck until I bought him a horse.  Then it just became a matter of running around and letting my pet take care of my light work 8P.  Even though a wizard does not have a pet, they would still dominate in an environment without track in it.  Wardens as well.</span></b>