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View Full Version : Explain to me why scouts........


hosuke
01-02-2008, 09:24 AM
<p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><b></b></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [Removed for Content].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p>

Spyderbite
01-02-2008, 10:39 AM
Somebody got beat by a scout last night.. XDNerfing several of the things you mentioned would turn them into another fighter class.. not a "scout" per se.Many of the things you mentioned are counterable.<i>"Robin of Locksley</i>: Any suggestions? <i>Azeem</i>: Get up. Move faster."

SolomanShort
01-02-2008, 10:47 AM
OP... why not post some definitive combat logs so that we can then show you ways that might help you?Saying L2P would just be rude! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Heleptra
01-02-2008, 10:57 AM
<p>Hello! im really srry you feel like this atm <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but the key to win the scouts is know how they play and their weakness, im a lvl 70 wizard atm. and i have been owning scouts since i dont remember, now days no scout ranger are 99% scared of me, no one wants a 1v1v ever. they just run evac away like pusys. And remember im a wizard!!I dont know what class you are But learn the game. and remember always watch your back<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i hope this helped a little. Every thing is possible.</p><p>Hartsia.</p><p>lvl 70 wizard on nagafen.</p><p>I wield a staff of fire I ride a horse of air I fear no water!</p>

keLston
01-02-2008, 11:37 AM
L2P.Maybe that's rude but not figuring out how to play your class and then screaming at us about it is rudererer.

caliburns
01-02-2008, 12:03 PM
<p>I agree with him, i have a high level brig and a high level wizard and now level a brusier,</p><p>i can say this, Scouts are stupidly overpowered (swashy,brigs)</p><p>Brusier get a spell called chi, they need 26 aa to get is, brigs get two stacking fucous buffs that buff then 2x over chi and it has half the cool down.</p><p>poisions always proc non stop, pirate stab from the rear does over 500 damage and always procs.... god [Removed for Content] auto attacks from scouts can hit over 1k now.. its just insane, they get too much and lose nothing for it.</p>

Wytie
01-02-2008, 12:05 PM
<cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p></blockquote><p>Why can healers heal all of a scout's dps timers with 2 or 3 heals?</p><p>Why can tanks taunt lock scouts and half there DPS?</p><p>Why do mages own so much?</p><p>Why do people cry so much?</p><p>I dont know........</p>

liveja
01-02-2008, 12:06 PM
<cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p></blockquote>Because we're better than you, that's why.

Darkor
01-02-2008, 12:14 PM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p></blockquote><p>Why can healers heal all of a scout's dps timers with 2 or 3 heals?</p></blockquote>Can they? I can assure you that my 80 Fury cannot outheal a swashbucklers dps in a 1 vs 1. And i challenge every 80 fury to fight my scout <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

Wytie
01-02-2008, 12:24 PM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p></blockquote><p>Why can healers heal all of a scout's dps timers with 2 or 3 heals?</p></blockquote>Can they? I can assure you that my 80 Fury cannot outheal a swashbucklers dps in a 1 vs 1. And i challenge every 80 fury to fight my scout <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> </blockquote>Swashes kill my wizzy before i can cast MS, Rogues are pretty sick, but thats not hardly all scouts as the OP says....

Darkor
01-02-2008, 12:34 PM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p></blockquote><p>Why can healers heal all of a scout's dps timers with 2 or 3 heals?</p></blockquote>Can they? I can assure you that my 80 Fury cannot outheal a swashbucklers dps in a 1 vs 1. And i challenge every 80 fury to fight my scout <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> </blockquote>Swashes kill my wizzy before i can cast MS, Rogues are pretty sick, but thats not hardly all scouts as the OP says....</blockquote>I just gave you an example, if you wanna tell me a fury can beat a decent Assassin you are more wrong than i initially thought.

Wytie
01-02-2008, 12:51 PM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p></blockquote><p>Why can healers heal all of a scout's dps timers with 2 or 3 heals?</p></blockquote>Can they? I can assure you that my 80 Fury cannot outheal a swashbucklers dps in a 1 vs 1. And i challenge every 80 fury to fight my scout <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> </blockquote>Swashes kill my wizzy before i can cast MS, Rogues are pretty sick, but thats not hardly all scouts as the OP says....</blockquote>I just gave you an example, if you wanna tell me a fury can beat a decent Assassin you are more wrong than i initially thought.</blockquote><p>Well now that all depends on the perspective......    any T1-T4 Fury can own 2, T1-T4 assassins all day long hopefully it gets better in the higher Tiers i cant tell ya mines not high enough yet but I will never feel sorry for any Fury ever. Just not gona happen Furys are so OP in the lower to mid Tiers its only right they get it handed to them in T8 if thats what you clam...</p><p>Iv seen you out and about you seem to do well for yourself, looks to me all ya need is anti stun and stifle pots & signets with the knowhow as to when to use them and how can you be stoped? Really. please tell me cause i dont get it. If your imune what stops you from eventually getting your HOT's off, once there off and your push your dps to scouts level just what exactly is the problem?  I dont have a T8 fury so i just dont get it, tho i have fought a <strike>few</strike>  hunderd across many toons.... </p>

Raidyen
01-02-2008, 01:00 PM
<p>Better question.  Why is it that people with a total of 3 posts on these threads suddenly feel the need to come here and start up topic's and post some talking points they obiviously got from Ajjantis so he can continue to troll?</p><p>To the OP or Ajjantis who is prolly one in the same, you combined abilities of several scout classes into your post.  Swashy/brig doesnt get runspeed, and Ranger/assasin don't get the kind of debuffs worth noting in any thread.  </p><p>I have an idea, lets fix everything you posted here.</p><p>Remove track.  check.</p><p>Remove DPS.  check</p><p>Remove posions. check</p><p>Remove debuffs.  check</p><p>Remove detaunts.  check</p><p>Remove runspeeds.  already did for the most part, but ok, check.</p><p>Remove shields.  Check.  (i do love my round sheild, but ok)</p><p>Remove evac.  Check.  (ok you didnt ask for that, but i figured i would just beat you to it.)</p><p>Whats that equal?  An NPC shop keeper.  Tumpy Tonic anybody?</p>

liveja
01-02-2008, 01:08 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>you combined abilities of several scout classes into your post. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>That is true, however .....</b></span></p><p>Swashy/brig doesnt get runspeed</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>This is false. We don't get 80% run speed buffs, but ALL Scouts get Pathfinding, which buffs your run speed by 16%, & any Swashy or Brig can put points into the AGI line, one of the abilities of which is a modest run speed increase. I think I'm up to 26% or so.</b></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>So, while we don't get anywhere near the 80% the OP spat up (which claim should have told everyone the OP is a troll & not to be taken seriously at all) we DO get run speed buffs.</b></span></p></blockquote>

Raidyen
01-02-2008, 01:14 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>you combined abilities of several scout classes into your post. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>That is true, however .....</b></span></p><p>Swashy/brig doesnt get runspeed</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>This is false. We don't get 80% run speed buffs, but ALL Scouts get Pathfinding, which buffs your run speed by 16%, & any Swashy or Brig can put points into the AGI line, one of the abilities of which is a modest run speed increase. I think I'm up to 26% or so.</b></span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00;"><b>So, while we don't get anywhere near the 80% the OP spat up (which claim should have told everyone the OP is a troll & not to be taken seriously at all) we DO get run speed buffs.</b></span></p><p>My apologies.  Let me clarify.  Yes we can get 26 percent with aa line and pathfinding.  Not exaclty speeding.  if you want we can just use Chokadi totems also, take us to 65 with aa line and Jboots, and 70 percent if you have a race ability.  Of coarse any class in the game can get 60 percent with Chokadi, Jboots and Racial ability, but we wouldnt want to tell people that.  Plus the fact just about every class gets Run speed aa's they can also get up to 70 percent, just like us superfast swashies.</p></blockquote></blockquote>

Sunderban
01-02-2008, 01:19 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Somebody got beat by a scout last night.. XDNerfing several of the things you mentioned would turn them into another fighter class.. not a "scout" per se.Many of the things you mentioned are counterable.<i>"Robin of Locksley</i>: Any suggestions? <i>Azeem</i>: Get up. Move faster."</blockquote>yes from tone i would say several times. my t2 brigand loses 50% of the time in pvp. i'm no slouch in pvp and can hold my own. i am geared up pretty well now with almost all adeptIII and some really nice gear and i lose easily 50% of all fights and i would say against almost every class so far.

Roald
01-02-2008, 01:20 PM
<p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p>

Roald
01-02-2008, 01:21 PM
<cite>Sunderban wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Somebody got beat by a scout last night.. XDNerfing several of the things you mentioned would turn them into another fighter class.. not a "scout" per se.Many of the things you mentioned are counterable.<i>"Robin of Locksley</i>: Any suggestions? <i>Azeem</i>: Get up. Move faster."</blockquote>yes from tone i would say several times. my t2 brigand loses 50% of the time in pvp. i'm no slouch in pvp and can hold my own. i am geared up pretty well now with almost all adeptIII and some really nice gear and i lose easily 50% of all fights and i would say against almost every class so far. </blockquote>You can use more than auto attack you know.

Kratoswra
01-02-2008, 01:22 PM
<p>Not all scouts are overpowered only swashies and brigands are. They are supereasymode. Track a vulnerable victim, 1 2 3 4 5, rinse and repeat for 80% of fights. And i dont think the problem is with them. The problem is mitigation doesn't count much. Its ok scouts fulminate casters if they get their back, but tanks should resist more, much more. And potions break pvp, i would remove em all.</p><p>Every body hit too much including mobs. And brigands make it worse couse they debuff it more. Fights should long more, but then healers will be overpowered, so its difficult to make everyone happy. </p><p> Also the problem with scouts is that they have the radar attached. They will wait till you have a mob with you and backstab you. Thats not a fair fight but its their lame playstile. I tend to win scout 1vs1 except swashies but they also do the same, revive and chase me till im on mob and then start to /rude when im unconsius.</p><p>If they didnt get token when you are on a mob this will be a diferent story.</p><p>What i would do:</p><p>Give all tank classes, bruiser monks included more hp, miti and avoidance. Reduce DPS of swashy brigand. Give casters more CC, speccially summoners (for example pets with %to root/taunt on succesful hit). Reduce healers mit and avoidance. Make long delay weapons only usable for fighter/priest. All scouts should hit fast and weak, and fighters slow and hard.</p>

Sunderban
01-02-2008, 02:02 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sunderban wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Somebody got beat by a scout last night.. XDNerfing several of the things you mentioned would turn them into another fighter class.. not a "scout" per se.Many of the things you mentioned are counterable.<i>"Robin of Locksley</i>: Any suggestions? <i>Azeem</i>: Get up. Move faster."</blockquote>yes from tone i would say several times. my t2 brigand loses 50% of the time in pvp. i'm no slouch in pvp and can hold my own. i am geared up pretty well now with almost all adeptIII and some really nice gear and i lose easily 50% of all fights and i would say against almost every class so far. </blockquote>You can use more than auto attack you know.</blockquote>lol.....oh thats what buttons 2 thru 9 are for.....jeesh i was wondering for the longest.

Csky
01-02-2008, 02:33 PM
<p>lol @ the scouts that come in and zerg this thread</p><p>and to the OP its because EQ2 is a PVE game with PVP server on the side and soe obviously wasnt thinking about PVP when they designed scouts otherwise they wouldnt have abilities like track PC, speed, stealth, devistating melee damage and snares </p><p> i love when they say "learn to play your class if you have a problem with scouts" when they are immune from unwanted PVP and have the ability to pick and choose fights they can win.. and they dont even have to be choosy</p>

toenukl
01-02-2008, 02:36 PM
<cite>Sunderban wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Somebody got beat by a scout last night.. XDNerfing several of the things you mentioned would turn them into another fighter class.. not a "scout" per se.Many of the things you mentioned are counterable.<i>"Robin of Locksley</i>: Any suggestions? <i>Azeem</i>: Get up. Move faster."</blockquote>yes from tone i would say several times. my t2 brigand loses 50% of the time in pvp. i'm no slouch in pvp and can hold my own. i am geared up pretty well now with almost all adeptIII and some really nice gear and i lose easily 50% of all fights and i would say against almost every class so far. </blockquote>Ouch! My 21 brigand hasn't lost a single time since I got my MC armor at lvl 12.

Sunderban
01-02-2008, 02:49 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sunderban wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Somebody got beat by a scout last night.. XDNerfing several of the things you mentioned would turn them into another fighter class.. not a "scout" per se.Many of the things you mentioned are counterable.<i>"Robin of Locksley</i>: Any suggestions? <i>Azeem</i>: Get up. Move faster."</blockquote>yes from tone i would say several times. my t2 brigand loses 50% of the time in pvp. i'm no slouch in pvp and can hold my own. i am geared up pretty well now with almost all adeptIII and some really nice gear and i lose easily 50% of all fights and i would say against almost every class so far. </blockquote>Ouch! My 21 brigand hasn't lost a single time since I got my MC armor at lvl 12. </blockquote><p>jeesh...cmon nail your ruining my fantasy that i am at least decent at pvp. if you keep up with these comments i might have to accept that maybe i suck <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>actually i'm a kamikaze pvp'r. i attack every enemy on sight....especially yellow cons. i love pushing the limits. had a level 46 (red)mlaughing at me the other day for several minutes as i beat on him and didn't move his green health bar even the slightest....then he 1 shoted me. </p><p>also i dont evaluate enemies as i probably should or wait for them to fight mobs and attack when they are weak. i have more of a tank mentality and probably should be playing one. i'm more of a knuckle dragger type that will charge any enemy at any cost. probably why i lose so often. although i am starting to use my stealth more to my advantage. </p>

Sightless
01-02-2008, 05:00 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p></blockquote>Yet my Warlock who is 59 now is twice as powerful than my 74 Ranger.. I've been timing my kills on level 70 bots and it infuriates me how powerful the Warlock is, when my Ranger has been destroyed. Not to mention the power I've also been seeing on my Guardian.

Roald
01-02-2008, 05:54 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p></blockquote>Yet my Warlock who is 59 now is twice as powerful than my 74 Ranger.. I've been timing my kills on level 70 bots and it infuriates me how powerful the Warlock is, when my Ranger has been destroyed. Not to mention the power I've also been seeing on my Guardian.</blockquote><p>Not sure how you can get as powerful as killing someone in 2 seconds, unless you're claiming u can kill someone in 1 second on your warlock.</p><p>As a coercer, if i let a ranger out of a 5m distance for more than 4 seconds, im dead, simple as.</p>

Sightless
01-02-2008, 06:19 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p></blockquote>Yet my Warlock who is 59 now is twice as powerful than my 74 Ranger.. I've been timing my kills on level 70 bots and it infuriates me how powerful the Warlock is, when my Ranger has been destroyed. Not to mention the power I've also been seeing on my Guardian.</blockquote><p>Not sure how you can get as powerful as killing someone in 2 seconds, unless you're claiming u can kill someone in 1 second on your warlock.</p><p>As a coercer, if i let a ranger out of a 5m distance for more than 4 seconds, im dead, simple as.</p></blockquote>Rangers are not killing in 2 seconds. I lost 60% of my damage when they removed Focus Aim. Unless Coercors are having heart attacks the second a Ranger attacks you, something is wrong. And I can kill you no matter what with my Warlock in four seconds.

Dh
01-02-2008, 06:40 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p></blockquote>Yet my Warlock who is 59 now is twice as powerful than my 74 Ranger.. I've been timing my kills on level 70 bots and it infuriates me how powerful the Warlock is, when my Ranger has been destroyed. Not to mention the power I've also been seeing on my Guardian.</blockquote><p>Not sure how you can get as powerful as killing someone in 2 seconds, unless you're claiming u can kill someone in 1 second on your warlock.</p><p>As a coercer, if i let a ranger out of a 5m distance for more than 4 seconds, im dead, simple as.</p></blockquote>Rangers are not killing in 2 seconds. I lost 60% of my damage when they removed Focus Aim. Unless Coercors are having heart attacks the second a Ranger attacks you, something is wrong. And I can kill you no matter what with my Warlock in four seconds.</blockquote><p>I played a warlock for long time and I also have a 60 ranger. If your warlock is on naggy evil side, Ill show you what rangers do to warlocks everytime when played properly. Grats you can kill bots so can I and everyone else that knows how to enter a password to post on this forum. My ranger is far far far more powerful than any warlock could hope to be.</p>

yohann koldheart
01-02-2008, 07:04 PM
<p>all you crybaby nerf winers need to stop generalizing all scouts together, only 2 classes can do that brigs, swashies. im not sure what assasans can do.</p><p>rangers can use the poisions,track,etc but our dps is uber gimped so any green con healer with app 4 heals can out heal all out attacks and kill us</p>

Kiintac
01-02-2008, 07:37 PM
My favorite is still when someone says the name of a Brig/Swash player and says "Oh he is a good player"    I just laugh.  Pick the easiest class to play and kill everyone 1v1 and is considered a good player.Also in regards to rangers being gimped....   I PvP as a duo all the time with a ranger.   Cloth goes down in approx 4 secs, unless Sniper Shot is used, then clothie is dead in two secs.   I agree they seem to be at the bottom of the four uber scouts.   But  if they were so bad,  you wouldn't see an over abundance of them.  They still out parse Wiz and Locks.

Sightless
01-02-2008, 07:42 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p></blockquote>Yet my Warlock who is 59 now is twice as powerful than my 74 Ranger.. I've been timing my kills on level 70 bots and it infuriates me how powerful the Warlock is, when my Ranger has been destroyed. Not to mention the power I've also been seeing on my Guardian.</blockquote><p>Not sure how you can get as powerful as killing someone in 2 seconds, unless you're claiming u can kill someone in 1 second on your warlock.</p><p>As a coercer, if i let a ranger out of a 5m distance for more than 4 seconds, im dead, simple as.</p></blockquote>Rangers are not killing in 2 seconds. I lost 60% of my damage when they removed Focus Aim. Unless Coercors are having heart attacks the second a Ranger attacks you, something is wrong. And I can kill you no matter what with my Warlock in four seconds.</blockquote><p>I played a warlock for long time and I also have a 60 ranger. If your warlock is on naggy evil side, Ill show you what rangers do to warlocks everytime when played properly. Grats you can kill bots so can I and everyone else that knows how to enter a password to post on this forum. My ranger is far far far more powerful than any warlock could hope to be.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry Venekor. Dhye, I've killed two exiled Rangers at the same time! I was so excited, and scared too! Both were Champions, me a Destroyer. I know what I do on my Ranger to cloth casters, and I was actually intimidated for once. First I didn't engage, I ran to the nearest cover, got behind it and waited for one of them to come into view, killed him in two spells, both critically hit him of course and the second one I charged before he could get off anything substantial and killed him in three spells. I wasn't even in the red yet, and hadn't used Manashield.</p><p>They came back while i was questing and I was forced to Manashield and I for fun hit Focus Casting and dropped them both in five seconds. But hey, I cheat as a caster I'm told because I have See Stealth + See Invis up all the time and I use Stun/Stifle immunity potions.</p><p>You wouldn't kill me in your wettest dreams.</p>

Vydar
01-02-2008, 07:43 PM
<cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p></blockquote>I don't play an assassin anymore in PvP, I play berserker.The "heal" you speak of is very slight and it procs 5x a minute for a max of maybe 1k hp.  No fights last this long.  With haste, let's SAY that the person is using mastercrafted and let's SAY that it actually proc'd and let's SAY that he has a lot of haste and a long delay weapon.  An average fight is 5-10 seconds, so it proc'd what... twice?  Maybe a 500 point heal?  Maybe?  Who doesn't have self heals anymore?Most people melee for 500+ damage.  Scout dps poisons (Caustic in pvp, most dont' use hemo cuz it takes too long to tick) do maybe... 300 in pvp.  If they proc.  The only scouts that habitually use shields tbh are bards, sometimes swashies and rangers, but not typically.  Brigands either use 1h with lunge reversal or dual wield, assassins use dual wield, rangers and swashies usually dual wield.  ONE scout class can run that fast, and that's Rangers.  And that's because everything they do is ranged, so they must be able to get that far out quickly.  The only classes that can spec for tanking are swashies and brigands, and that's because they don't have the burst dps that assassins and rangers get.  They are the tougher, debuffing/tanking scout, while Assassins and Rangers are the DPS scout.  (this is not to say, of course, that swashies and brigands can not dps, since they do it quite well.) I haven't seen a scout with more HP than me yet.  If they do, they had to devote a lot of AA points into it (AssassinsRangers must spend 16 points, Brigands/Swashies must spend more) and have good gear that they earned.  What do scouts sacrifice?They sacrifice the longterm dps that mages get for short term burst dps.  They sacrifice the mitigation/HP of a tank, the heals of a healer, the utility of a support class, for just straight DPS.I assume you play a cloth class, probably a summoner since you seem to know nothing of how mages can fight back.  If you're a summoner, I'm sorry, you're [Removed for Content] either way.  If you're a Coercer/Illy, Wizard/Warlock, there are plenty of ways to win and defeat scouts. 

Sightless
01-02-2008, 07:43 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>My favorite is still when someone says the name of a Brig/Swash player and says "Oh he is a good player"    I just laugh.  Pick the easiest class to play and kill everyone 1v1 and is considered a good player.Also in regards to rangers being gimped....   I PvP as a duo all the time with a ranger.   Cloth goes down in approx 4 secs, unless Sniper Shot is used, then clothie is dead in two secs.   I agree they seem to be at the bottom of the four uber scouts.   But  if they were so bad,  you wouldn't see an over abundance of them.  They still out parse Wiz and Locks. </blockquote>Please tell me you're on Venekor.. I want to see this Ranger out parse my Warlock.

Darkor
01-02-2008, 07:51 PM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p></blockquote>Yet my Warlock who is 59 now is twice as powerful than my 74 Ranger.. I've been timing my kills on level 70 bots and it infuriates me how powerful the Warlock is, when my Ranger has been destroyed. Not to mention the power I've also been seeing on my Guardian.</blockquote><p>Not sure how you can get as powerful as killing someone in 2 seconds, unless you're claiming u can kill someone in 1 second on your warlock.</p><p>As a coercer, if i let a ranger out of a 5m distance for more than 4 seconds, im dead, simple as.</p></blockquote>Rangers are not killing in 2 seconds. I lost 60% of my damage when they removed Focus Aim. Unless Coercors are having heart attacks the second a Ranger attacks you, something is wrong. And I can kill you no matter what with my Warlock in four seconds.</blockquote><p>I played a warlock for long time and I also have a 60 ranger. If your warlock is on naggy evil side, Ill show you what rangers do to warlocks everytime when played properly. Grats you can kill bots so can I and everyone else that knows how to enter a password to post on this forum. My ranger is far far far more powerful than any warlock could hope to be.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry Venekor. Dhye, I've killed two exiled Rangers at the same time! I was so excited, and scared too! Both were Champions, me a Destroyer. I know what I do on my Ranger to cloth casters, and I was actually intimidated for once. First I didn't engage, I ran to the nearest cover, got behind it and waited for one of them to come into view, killed him in two spells, both critically hit him of course and the second one I charged before he could get off anything substantial and killed him in three spells. I wasn't even in the red yet, and hadn't used Manashield.</p><p>They came back while i was questing and I was forced to Manashield and I for fun hit Focus Casting and dropped them both in five seconds. But hey, I cheat as a caster I'm told because I have See Stealth + See Invis up all the time and I use Stun/Stifle immunity potions.</p><p>You wouldn't kill me in your wettest dreams.</p></blockquote>Fraps it or it didnt happen.

Shadow_Viper
01-02-2008, 10:16 PM
<cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p></blockquote><p>Yet another anti-scout post. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  Scouts are fine as they are, they do not need nerfed(nor does any other class).</p><p>1) Having a problem with getting poisoned? </p><p>Build up your poison resists, problem solved.</p><p>2) Find that you're getting ambushed by scouts alot?</p><p>Use see stealth/invis totems and pay attention to your surroundings, problem solved.</p><p>Instead of making a thread calling for scouts to be nerfed, your time would've better been spent making a thread on your class' section of the forums asking for advice on dealing with scouts. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

Fonrian
01-02-2008, 11:09 PM
What amazes me most is how many times the same things can be said over and over again over hundreds of different threads.  This entire thread, replies and all, could be found in a post within the first month of PvP servers being launched, and 5 times a week thereafter. 

Sightless
01-02-2008, 11:59 PM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p></blockquote>Yet my Warlock who is 59 now is twice as powerful than my 74 Ranger.. I've been timing my kills on level 70 bots and it infuriates me how powerful the Warlock is, when my Ranger has been destroyed. Not to mention the power I've also been seeing on my Guardian.</blockquote><p>Not sure how you can get as powerful as killing someone in 2 seconds, unless you're claiming u can kill someone in 1 second on your warlock.</p><p>As a coercer, if i let a ranger out of a 5m distance for more than 4 seconds, im dead, simple as.</p></blockquote>Rangers are not killing in 2 seconds. I lost 60% of my damage when they removed Focus Aim. Unless Coercors are having heart attacks the second a Ranger attacks you, something is wrong. And I can kill you no matter what with my Warlock in four seconds.</blockquote><p>I played a warlock for long time and I also have a 60 ranger. If your warlock is on naggy evil side, Ill show you what rangers do to warlocks everytime when played properly. Grats you can kill bots so can I and everyone else that knows how to enter a password to post on this forum. My ranger is far far far more powerful than any warlock could hope to be.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry Venekor. Dhye, I've killed two exiled Rangers at the same time! I was so excited, and scared too! Both were Champions, me a Destroyer. I know what I do on my Ranger to cloth casters, and I was actually intimidated for once. First I didn't engage, I ran to the nearest cover, got behind it and waited for one of them to come into view, killed him in two spells, both critically hit him of course and the second one I charged before he could get off anything substantial and killed him in three spells. I wasn't even in the red yet, and hadn't used Manashield.</p><p>They came back while i was questing and I was forced to Manashield and I for fun hit Focus Casting and dropped them both in five seconds. But hey, I cheat as a caster I'm told because I have See Stealth + See Invis up all the time and I use Stun/Stifle immunity potions.</p><p>You wouldn't kill me in your wettest dreams.</p></blockquote>Fraps it or it didnt happen.</blockquote>I'll check, but I don't think I've seen any of your fraps proving what you've said. I've seen a couple fraps with you in it, one golden child showing how good your guild/groups are in PvP.

Darkor
01-03-2008, 12:22 AM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>When i see someone who plays a Swashie, Ranger or Brigand, and to a less extent assassin, I know they like it easy. Which is entirely fair enough, its their money, and they may well have other harder classes too. And lets face it, if no one played the easier classes, the game would be more boring.</p><p>At the end of the day though, everyone who plays knows which classes are easier, and which aren't. You won't be respected as much for, say, winning a 1v1 or having a higher title on an 'easier' class. And in the end, apart from having fun oviously <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> , I hope most people would rather be knwon for being more respected and liked, rather than having a higher title/KvD etc. (note: the two aren't, of course, mutually exclusive).</p></blockquote>Yet my Warlock who is 59 now is twice as powerful than my 74 Ranger.. I've been timing my kills on level 70 bots and it infuriates me how powerful the Warlock is, when my Ranger has been destroyed. Not to mention the power I've also been seeing on my Guardian.</blockquote><p>Not sure how you can get as powerful as killing someone in 2 seconds, unless you're claiming u can kill someone in 1 second on your warlock.</p><p>As a coercer, if i let a ranger out of a 5m distance for more than 4 seconds, im dead, simple as.</p></blockquote>Rangers are not killing in 2 seconds. I lost 60% of my damage when they removed Focus Aim. Unless Coercors are having heart attacks the second a Ranger attacks you, something is wrong. And I can kill you no matter what with my Warlock in four seconds.</blockquote><p>I played a warlock for long time and I also have a 60 ranger. If your warlock is on naggy evil side, Ill show you what rangers do to warlocks everytime when played properly. Grats you can kill bots so can I and everyone else that knows how to enter a password to post on this forum. My ranger is far far far more powerful than any warlock could hope to be.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry Venekor. Dhye, I've killed two exiled Rangers at the same time! I was so excited, and scared too! Both were Champions, me a Destroyer. I know what I do on my Ranger to cloth casters, and I was actually intimidated for once. First I didn't engage, I ran to the nearest cover, got behind it and waited for one of them to come into view, killed him in two spells, both critically hit him of course and the second one I charged before he could get off anything substantial and killed him in three spells. I wasn't even in the red yet, and hadn't used Manashield.</p><p>They came back while i was questing and I was forced to Manashield and I for fun hit Focus Casting and dropped them both in five seconds. But hey, I cheat as a caster I'm told because I have See Stealth + See Invis up all the time and I use Stun/Stifle immunity potions.</p><p>You wouldn't kill me in your wettest dreams.</p></blockquote>Fraps it or it didnt happen.</blockquote>I'll check, but I don't think I've seen any of your fraps proving what you've said. I've seen a couple fraps with you in it, one golden child showing how good your guild/groups are in PvP.</blockquote>What do you want to see frapsed, i actually have no problem delivirng evidence of what i am saying on this board.

Sightless
01-03-2008, 12:25 AM
<p>Ajjantis</p><p>I want to see a fraps of your Fury fighting a Swashbuckler, your Brigand killing "equal" level Furies. I want to see a fraps with you in it, that shows you actually know what you're talking about it. Not fraps that show you standing there, doing absolutely nothing to save yourself, while your group, (with a tracker in it) runs in circles while a Ranger is killing you.</p><p>I'll await these fraps.</p>

Darkor
01-03-2008, 01:46 AM
<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ajjantis</p><p>I want to see a fraps of your Fury fighting a Swashbuckler, your Brigand killing "equal" level Furies. I want to see a fraps with you in it, that shows you actually know what you're talking about it. Not fraps that show you standing there, doing absolutely nothing to save yourself, while your group, (with a tracker in it) runs in circles while a Ranger is killing you.</p><p>I'll await these fraps.</p></blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p>

Spyderbite
01-03-2008, 01:59 AM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i love when they say "learn to play your class if you have a problem with scouts" when they are immune from unwanted PVP and have the ability to pick and choose fights they can win.. and they dont even have to be choosy</p></blockquote><img src="http://www.sadlier.net/images/whaaaa.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

Shadow_Viper
01-03-2008, 02:40 AM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote><p>Please take a look at this thread.   <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PVP</a></p><p>The class boards are also extremely useful! </p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=87 " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Furies</a></p>

Sightless
01-03-2008, 02:54 AM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ajjantis</p><p>I want to see a fraps of your Fury fighting a Swashbuckler, your Brigand killing "equal" level Furies. I want to see a fraps with you in it, that shows you actually know what you're talking about it. Not fraps that show you standing there, doing absolutely nothing to save yourself, while your group, (with a tracker in it) runs in circles while a Ranger is killing you.</p><p>I'll await these fraps.</p></blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote>I guess you have to keep that title some how huh?

BWLeeEllison
01-03-2008, 04:00 AM
<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>L2P.Maybe that's rude but not figuring out how to play your class and then screaming at us about it is rudererer.</blockquote><p><b><i><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #0099ff;font-family: impact,chicago;">LOL'd</span></i></b></p><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>i love when they say "learn to play your class if you have a problem with scouts" when they are immune from unwanted PVP and have the ability to pick and choose fights they can win.. and they dont even have to be choosy</p></blockquote><img src="http://www.sadlier.net/images/whaaaa.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="600" height="450" /></blockquote><p><b><i><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #ff0000;font-family: impact,chicago;">ROFLMAO!</span></i></b></p>

Oneira
01-03-2008, 05:34 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hosuke wrote:</cite>I don't play an assassin anymore in PvP, I play berserker.The "heal" you speak of is very slight and it procs 5x a minute for a max of maybe 1k hp.  No fights last this long.  With haste, let's SAY that the person is using mastercrafted and let's SAY that it actually proc'd and let's SAY that he has a lot of haste and a long delay weapon.  An average fight is 5-10 seconds, so it proc'd what... twice?  Maybe a 500 point heal?  Maybe?  Who doesn't have self heals anymore?Most people melee for 500+ damage.  Scout dps poisons (Caustic in pvp, most dont' use hemo cuz it takes too long to tick) do maybe... 300 in pvp.  If they proc.  The only scouts that habitually use shields tbh are bards, sometimes swashies and rangers, but not typically.  Brigands either use 1h with lunge reversal or dual wield, assassins use dual wield, rangers and swashies usually dual wield.  ONE scout class can run that fast, and that's Rangers.  And that's because everything they do is ranged, so they must be able to get that far out quickly.  The only classes that can spec for tanking are swashies and brigands, and that's because they don't have the burst dps that assassins and rangers get.  They are the tougher, debuffing/tanking scout, while Assassins and Rangers are the DPS scout.  (this is not to say, of course, that swashies and brigands can not dps, since they do it quite well.) I haven't seen a scout with more HP than me yet.  If they do, they had to devote a lot of AA points into it (AssassinsRangers must spend 16 points, Brigands/Swashies must spend more) and have good gear that they earned.  What do scouts sacrifice?They sacrifice the longterm dps that mages get for short term burst dps.  They sacrifice the mitigation/HP of a tank, the heals of a healer, the utility of a support class, for just straight DPS.I assume you play a cloth class, probably a summoner since you seem to know nothing of how mages can fight back.  If you're a summoner, I'm sorry, you're [Removed for Content] either way.  <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you're a Coercer/Illy, Wizard/Warlock, there are plenty of ways to win and defeat scouts.  </span></b></blockquote>Assuming you do not get resisted somewhere between 1-5 times in a row.

Vydar
01-03-2008, 07:57 AM
<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hosuke wrote:</cite>I don't play an assassin anymore in PvP, I play berserker.The "heal" you speak of is very slight and it procs 5x a minute for a max of maybe 1k hp.  No fights last this long.  With haste, let's SAY that the person is using mastercrafted and let's SAY that it actually proc'd and let's SAY that he has a lot of haste and a long delay weapon.  An average fight is 5-10 seconds, so it proc'd what... twice?  Maybe a 500 point heal?  Maybe?  Who doesn't have self heals anymore?Most people melee for 500+ damage.  Scout dps poisons (Caustic in pvp, most dont' use hemo cuz it takes too long to tick) do maybe... 300 in pvp.  If they proc.  The only scouts that habitually use shields tbh are bards, sometimes swashies and rangers, but not typically.  Brigands either use 1h with lunge reversal or dual wield, assassins use dual wield, rangers and swashies usually dual wield.  ONE scout class can run that fast, and that's Rangers.  And that's because everything they do is ranged, so they must be able to get that far out quickly.  The only classes that can spec for tanking are swashies and brigands, and that's because they don't have the burst dps that assassins and rangers get.  They are the tougher, debuffing/tanking scout, while Assassins and Rangers are the DPS scout.  (this is not to say, of course, that swashies and brigands can not dps, since they do it quite well.) I haven't seen a scout with more HP than me yet.  If they do, they had to devote a lot of AA points into it (AssassinsRangers must spend 16 points, Brigands/Swashies must spend more) and have good gear that they earned.  What do scouts sacrifice?They sacrifice the longterm dps that mages get for short term burst dps.  They sacrifice the mitigation/HP of a tank, the heals of a healer, the utility of a support class, for just straight DPS.I assume you play a cloth class, probably a summoner since you seem to know nothing of how mages can fight back.  If you're a summoner, I'm sorry, you're [Removed for Content] either way.  <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you're a Coercer/Illy, Wizard/Warlock, there are plenty of ways to win and defeat scouts.  </span></b></blockquote>Assuming you do not get resisted somewhere between 1-5 times in a row.</blockquote>With how retardedly high spells are hitting for in t8, they should be resisted quite a bit.9k Ice Bolt in PvP is stupid.

GrignakOw
01-03-2008, 08:06 AM
I say let the Swashys and Brigands keep their DPS,just remove resists and ill be happy(for pvp of course).And if they dont want to remove resists then i say halve their damage on all the CA's and auto attacks in pvp.

Vydar
01-03-2008, 08:09 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say let the Swashys and Brigands keep their DPS,just remove resists and ill be happy(for pvp of course).And if they dont want to remove resists then i say halve their damage on all the CA's and auto attacks in pvp.</blockquote>Cuz both of these statements make sense.  So... you can get +defense on your gear, +parry, +agi, etc.But we shouldn't be able to resist anything?  When nukes hit for more than 4 CA's in a row hit for?  (except for Assassins who can ONLY land this kind of damage from stealth)A good Sorcerer can tear a scout to pieces already.  Remove resists?  /laff

Elephanton
01-03-2008, 09:05 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>A good Sorcerer can tear a scout to pieces already.  Remove resists?  /laff</blockquote>LOL, what kind of scout is that???Yeah we all know no scouts get stifles, stuns, interrupts, mezzes and all that crap that makes it impossible for sorcs to cast their long casting spells. THAT ALONE is already balancing enough for not having resists at all. Not even talking abour track etc.

Vydar
01-03-2008, 09:07 AM
<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>A good Sorcerer can tear a scout to pieces already.  Remove resists?  /laff</blockquote>LOL, what kind of scout is that???Yeah we all know no scouts get stifles, stuns, interrupts, mezzes and all that crap that makes it impossible for sorcs to cast their long casting spells.</blockquote>And no sorcerers carry freedom of mind pots that make all of this useless.  Nor do they get god abilities to give immunity to any of it.  Oh, and they definitely don't spec for int + power to make their manashield as effective as possible.  Nor do warlocks spec for focused casting to be immune to interrupts and to cast much faster.  Give me a break.

Roald
01-03-2008, 09:09 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>hosuke wrote:</cite>I don't play an assassin anymore in PvP, I play berserker.The "heal" you speak of is very slight and it procs 5x a minute for a max of maybe 1k hp.  No fights last this long.  With haste, let's SAY that the person is using mastercrafted and let's SAY that it actually proc'd and let's SAY that he has a lot of haste and a long delay weapon.  An average fight is 5-10 seconds, so it proc'd what... twice?  Maybe a 500 point heal?  Maybe?  Who doesn't have self heals anymore?Most people melee for 500+ damage.  Scout dps poisons (Caustic in pvp, most dont' use hemo cuz it takes too long to tick) do maybe... 300 in pvp.  If they proc.  The only scouts that habitually use shields tbh are bards, sometimes swashies and rangers, but not typically.  Brigands either use 1h with lunge reversal or dual wield, assassins use dual wield, rangers and swashies usually dual wield.  ONE scout class can run that fast, and that's Rangers.  And that's because everything they do is ranged, so they must be able to get that far out quickly.  The only classes that can spec for tanking are swashies and brigands, and that's because they don't have the burst dps that assassins and rangers get.  They are the tougher, debuffing/tanking scout, while Assassins and Rangers are the DPS scout.  (this is not to say, of course, that swashies and brigands can not dps, since they do it quite well.) I haven't seen a scout with more HP than me yet.  If they do, they had to devote a lot of AA points into it (AssassinsRangers must spend 16 points, Brigands/Swashies must spend more) and have good gear that they earned.  What do scouts sacrifice?They sacrifice the longterm dps that mages get for short term burst dps.  They sacrifice the mitigation/HP of a tank, the heals of a healer, the utility of a support class, for just straight DPS.I assume you play a cloth class, probably a summoner since you seem to know nothing of how mages can fight back.  If you're a summoner, I'm sorry, you're [Removed for Content] either way.  <b><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you're a Coercer/Illy, Wizard/Warlock, there are plenty of ways to win and defeat scouts.  </span></b></blockquote>Assuming you do not get resisted somewhere between 1-5 times in a row.</blockquote>With how retardedly high spells are hitting for in t8, they should be resisted quite a bit.9k Ice Bolt in PvP is stupid.</blockquote><p>Pretty sure bolt of ice in a wizard spell, not all 4 of these classes. I know warlocks can hit pretty hard too.</p><p>I don't know about Illys, and Im only level 70 atm, but I've never heard of a coercer hitting for more than 3k in 1 nuke. And until someone gets lucky with shockwave M1, i doubt that this will change dramatically <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Siphar
01-03-2008, 09:22 AM
<cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3366;">Lie lie and lie. My poisons do no where near as much damage as my melee. Disproved</span></p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p><span style="color: #ff3366;">They proc what? 4 times/min and heal for around 100-200. This helps but is it will never save you as a "heal". Disproved</span></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p><span style="color: #ff3366;">I havent looked at these in a while, but last time I checked they proc 4 times/min with a <b>5%</b> chance to break target. Disproved</span></p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3366;">1). They do insane dps because they offer little else. 2). Only brigs can stun lock and debuff significantly (other classes debuff isn't very good tbh. Disproved</span></p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3366;">Only poorly spec'd rangers can run at high speed. Even bards struggle to get above 50% and have to wear the Jboots. All teh other classes run at around 16% without a totem (which are freely available on teh broker btw for EVERYONE) Disproved</span></p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3366;">My assassin at 80 has around 9k hp, M1/adp3 T8 spells, 136AA and legendary/fabled gear with adorns. Any plate tank below this HP is in nub gear with no AA. Sk's I hear get low hp relative to other plate tanks but they heal with almost every hit (reaver line), have wards and a PT which heals them. Disproved</span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><b><span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff3366;">They sacrifice utility spells (except bard)</span></b></p><p><span style="color: #ff3366;">Disproved</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;color: #ff3366;">MY assassins sacrifices plenty of potential dps by goign defensive thanks a lot. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;color: #ff3366;">Lies</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;color: #ff3366;">Hahha</span></p></blockquote>BS post imo. You basically get owned everytime a scout looks at you because you have put little to no time in preparing for battle, you lack or BOTH

Siphar
01-03-2008, 09:28 AM
<cite>Kratoswrath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Not all scouts are overpowered only swashies and brigands are. They are supereasymode. Track a vulnerable victim, 1 2 3 4 5, rinse and repeat for 80% of fights. And i dont think the problem is with them. </p></blockquote><p><b>QFE</b></p><p>Why even say that "all" scouts are OP when they are clearly NOT.</p>

Siphar
01-03-2008, 09:32 AM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ajjantis</p><p>I want to see a fraps of your Fury fighting a Swashbuckler, your Brigand killing "equal" level Furies. I want to see a fraps with you in it, that shows you actually know what you're talking about it. Not fraps that show you standing there, doing absolutely nothing to save yourself, while your group, (with a tracker in it) runs in circles while a Ranger is killing you.</p><p>I'll await these fraps.</p></blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote>The pvp weapon, parting silk doesn't make you immune to root lol. It has a 1.8 times/min proc rate. They probably used a 10 second potion and [Removed for Content] you.

Darkor
01-03-2008, 11:06 AM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote><p>Please take a look at this thread.   <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PVP</a></p><p>The class boards are also extremely useful! </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=87" target="_blank">Furies</a></p></blockquote>Sir, i dont think i need anyone to teach me the classes i play.

Necodem
01-03-2008, 11:41 AM
<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ajjantis</p><p>I want to see a fraps of your Fury fighting a Swashbuckler, your Brigand killing "equal" level Furies. I want to see a fraps with you in it, that shows you actually know what you're talking about it. Not fraps that show you standing there, doing absolutely nothing to save yourself, while your group, (with a tracker in it) runs in circles while a Ranger is killing you.</p><p>I'll await these fraps.</p></blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote>The pvp weapon, parting silk doesn't make you immune to root lol. It has a 1.8 times/min proc rate. They probably used a 10 second potion and [I cannot control my vocabulary] you.</blockquote>It does, I got it, so I know the proc...

Darkor
01-03-2008, 12:03 PM
<cite>Siphar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ajjantis</p><p>I want to see a fraps of your Fury fighting a Swashbuckler, your Brigand killing "equal" level Furies. I want to see a fraps with you in it, that shows you actually know what you're talking about it. Not fraps that show you standing there, doing absolutely nothing to save yourself, while your group, (with a tracker in it) runs in circles while a Ranger is killing you.</p><p>I'll await these fraps.</p></blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote>The pvp weapon, parting silk doesn't make you immune to root lol. It has a 1.8 times/min proc rate. They probably used a 10 second potion and [I cannot control my vocabulary] you.</blockquote>Cure Arcana Potion, Freedom of Action, Signet, Parting Silk and now count in the root immunity you get after every root = Pretty much root immune for the next 2 minuts. The fight actually lasts 10 seconds top.

Sorffats
01-03-2008, 12:07 PM
<p>To answer the OP's question...</p><p>The reason that scouts get everything is because, as rumor would have it, everyone knows that SOE dev's all play scouts on pvp servers.   I suppose there is no real way to prove that, but that seems to be the general explanation.  You see every other class getting hit with some kind of nerf, but oh wait, they forgot to give something to the scouts, so it gets immediate attention.  I dunno, makes sense to me.  If I were a dev, I'd certainly stop brawler nerfs.  ;p</p>

Zimike
01-03-2008, 12:23 PM
<p>The problem is that this game was not designed with PVP in mind when it came out. This explains why Scout classes are overpowered in PVP.  When it comes to Scouts, you don't have to know how to play your class to be a good one. Most mages do not have the ability to run from a fight(which is ironic that Scouts with Chain armor can evac) and this dooms them from the get go. As a mage, we get snared, stunned, stifled,.. you name it and most of the time have no hope of getting away from a fight we are not going to win anyways, while Scouts get the "I'm going to lose, so I better evac to save my fame" button. </p><p> Mages can do a large amount of damage, but our casting times limit that DPS in PVP. Scouts can lang 8-16 hits in the same time it takes a mage class to get off one or two attacks. Our stuns last maybe 4 second and break,.. roots break, interrupts take way too long to cast to use in pvp, all mages can do it pray to God that can land that one nuke that will take them down maybe 40% health and that is pushing it. </p><p> You have to ask yourself one question,..... why does a class with better armor, better resists, better abilities, evac, safe house, also have better PVP DPS?    .. to be honest... I do not have a good answer. This is how things are and what we as mages have to deal with. We can only hope that Sony will focus more on balancing the PVP server.</p><p>Scouts right now have the game set on Easy Mode, while Mages have it set to Nightmare....[I cannot control my vocabulary].</p><p> I am too lazy to break it down today on a mathematical level so that Scouts can understand the facts are they are(most are in a world of their own), so I hope my experience of knowing my class and others will be enough.</p>

Bozidar
01-03-2008, 12:39 PM
<p>The problem is people can't get their brains around that there is no real balance in solo pvp, nor should sacrifices/changes be made to strieve for this.  It's a group game.  Come to me with a problem in group pvp and i'll champion that cause with you to get dev attention.</p><p>but "oh no, scouts have so many utilities" -- i read that 2 years ago when the pvp servers came out.  It's nothing new.</p><p> It's shocking that classes who's primary function is being a hunter are good for pvp, right?</p>

Zimike
01-03-2008, 12:55 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem is people can't get their brains around that there is no real balance in solo pvp, nor should sacrifices/changes be made to strieve for this.  It's a group game.  Come to me with a problem in group pvp and i'll champion that cause with you to get dev attention.</p><p>but "oh no, scouts have so many utilities" -- i read that 2 years ago when the pvp servers came out.  It's nothing new.</p><p> It's shocking that classes who's primary function is being a hunter are good for pvp, right?</p></blockquote>I understand how groups work and I do know some classes fit better in groups, but you can just as easily take these same Scout classes, put them in a group, and still they would be more powerful then the mages. There are balacing issues group or no group. You are thinking from a PVE stand point and need to open your eyes.

Roald
01-03-2008, 01:04 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem is people can't get their brains around that there is no real balance in solo pvp, nor should sacrifices/changes be made to strieve for this.  It's a group game.  Come to me with a problem in group pvp and i'll champion that cause with you to get dev attention.</p><p>but "oh no, scouts have so many utilities" -- i read that 2 years ago when the pvp servers came out.  It's nothing new.</p><p> It's shocking that classes who's primary function is being a hunter are good for pvp, right?</p></blockquote><p>I agree, but I think classes should, and im not sure how to put this, add up. Eg Lets say bards get 20/100 points solo. In a group, they should make up for this.</p><p>But, quite often, I'd rather have 2 brigands over, lets say, a dirge and a brig. In T8, Rogues have been auto attacking ever 2-3 seconds for upwards of 2.2k. And thats just auto attack, add in CAs and the dps is huge. A dirge would never add this dps through his own and through the buffs he gives. Therefore, the brigand is better solo and in groups.</p><p>The same goes for quite a few classes, necros, conjs, coercers etc. At the end of the day, although coercer can do alright DPS and good CC, most groups would prefer another warlock pumping out massive group DPS.</p>

BWLeeEllison
01-03-2008, 01:15 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote><p>Please take a look at this thread.   <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PVP</a></p><p>The class boards are also extremely useful! </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=87" target="_blank">Furies</a></p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I seriously doubt many people will click that or even be able to find the pertinant sections due to being busy crying, so I will highlight the parts they need to truly understand 8P</span></b></p><p><i>Editor's Note: The first thing I did before leaving PVE and restarting on Nagafen was sift through the PvP forums.  I remember very clearly one of the stickied posts in the old forums, as it laid out the "feel" of EQ2 PvP very poignantly for me even before I got to the server in the first place.  Sadly, the post was lost when the forums were changed, but today I saw someone who had it archived post it again, and I think it needs to be brought back as a sticky.  I do not remember the name of the original poster, so if someone has that info I'll edit this thread to give them full credit as deserved.  I do remember them only having a handful (5? 8?) total posts and I thought that it was pretty swank to see someone who's not a forum regular express themselves so clearly.  And remember, this was posted a *long* time ago.  In light of the changes in the works for PvP, and the generally escalating whinefests over the last year here, I think this needs to be re-read by all of us, so without further ado:</i><b>-------------------------------------------Disclaimer: </b>This is going to be long, opinionated, and blunt, but I've been reading a few too many threads from people who don't seem to understand what it is that they got themselves into, and are clamoring for SOE to run to the rescue and change everything about the game to suit their particular idea of just what "PvP" is. This is coming from a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, but by no means am I claiming to be an expert on EQ or PvP. I'm just a player who understands what game it is I'm playing.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Now then, who I am: I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek back when it was the only "red" server there was. I played on Tallon Zek when it opened, was a long-time player there during the glory days of large-scale good vs. evil battles, daily raids between Nektulos and West Freeport, and moved on to Sullon Zek when it opened, and played on the good (read: suicidal) team. I was mediocre at best, hardly a feared PKer, but I learned to survive and enjoyed what I played, no matter if I was outmatched or not. I understood what I was playing. Now that EQ2 has opened PvP servers, I couldn't help but join in. But I've noticed that there are large numbers of "bluebies" who came to these servers not understanding the nature of PvP in EQ games. This is evident in the incredible number of threads on this board where people are crying for everything to be changed to support what they thought it is. So let's get this started with the fundamental laws of the jungle</span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #1: <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You are going to die.</span></b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">There's no getting out of it. <span style="font-size: medium;">You did not come here to be safe</span>. You were safe before</span>. Now, those strawberry fields of treasure and experience are crawling with cutthroats who know where you used to go, what you used to do, what you used to seek there, and how to use this knowledge to catch you and inflict death on you. They aren't going to wait for you to get ready. They aren't going to play fair. They aren't going to care if a particular spell or tactic is too devastating if they catch you with it. Your only way around it is to learn them- learn where they are, learn what they're after, learn what they're going to do, and prepare yourself ahead of time. And no matter how well-prepared you are for what's out there- you are still going to die. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">There is no way out of Law #1</span>. Whether it's at the hands of someone at the top of your attack range picking you off just because you're there, whether it's a group of players lower than you who gang up and tear you apart, whether it's an even-con, similar class who just happens to get that last shot in before you, whether it's some punk who sucker-punches you right after a tough fight, or whether it's someone whom you thought had no chance in hell who happens to get lucky, you're going to be killed. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">If this bothers you, you made a mistake</span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #2: This isn't your mother's RPG</b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You can't play the same EQ2 you played when they weren't after you</span>. The gear that was excellent enough to live in because of its effectiveness against the mindless MOBs isn't worth squat- you have to outfit yourself with your most dreaded foes in mind. Resists are king, the stats you used to drool over are just going to have to take the bench. You can't just trot over to your favorite hunting grounds to knock out that writ or exploration quest anymore. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">They know that those spots attract people who still think that they're playing the same game, and they will be waiting for you. (See Law #1) You have to forget everything you learned on the blue servers, and be prepared to learn it all over again.</span> There are new rules for how to get a level. There are new rules for where to hunt, and there are new rules for which routes to take through the lands. If it's something that many people used to do or where many people used to go, it is now bait that will lead many people to their deaths. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">If you thought that you were going to play the same route you played before to get to level 60-whatever except that you can kill people now, <b>you made a mistake</b></span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">All classes have advantages in certain situations. <b><i><u>If you find yourself in one of these situations and you aren't the class in question, see Law #1</u></i></b>. So, such-and-such a class can take you down solo if they get the jump on you, if all they do is X and Y? Well, yes. That's what they do, and you were there. <span style="font-size: medium;">The essence of EQ2 is that all classes have advantages and weaknesses, and <u><b>the way we overcome our weaknesses isn't telling the game developer to take them away, or give you someone else's advantage</b></u></span></span>. The way you overcome these weaknesses is by <b>grouping</b> with someone who can complement them. <span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">You're not here to run around solo and have a fair, balanced even 1v1 match against everyone you meet. <u>That's not PvP, that's <b>dueling</b></u></span></span>. Running around alone isn't something you have the right to do. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: small;">Not all classes were meant to solo in PvE as well as others, <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ffff00;">what makes you think this is any different</span>?</span> </span>And if your class can't do what so-and-so does, they shouldn't. Everyone has "certain classes" who flat-out have them beat. Everyone has classes that can't hold a candle to them. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance</span>. There's more to PvP that who has what nuke or how many hitpoints or what dps rate is. PvP is about knowing <b>everything</b> you can do and how it works, not just what numbers scrolled up when you fought mobs before. If you can't fight them, learn how to. If you can't learn and expect SOE to change everything around to suit you, you made a mistake. Crying that you can't beat X class and they need to be nerfed doesn't mean you're right, it means you're an unskilled player who doesn't understand how to play his class. You also have to understand the other classes and what their weaknesses are. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;"><b>Learn, Adapt, and Grow; if you can't do that then you're not cut out for this</b></span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #4: Success is measured by survival</b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Any idiot can rack up a high number of kills, that doesn't make them skilled. Your skill isn't determined by how many people of what level you can take on. And the little punk who ran away, or zoned, or avoided you altogether, <span style="font-size: small;">he's not a coward, he's <b>smart</b></span></span>. Just because you engage someone doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. You have to <b>earn </b>that kill. If they get away, they survived. <span style="color: #ff0000;">If they fight back too hard and you're outmatched, sticking around and letting them have you isn't brave or honorable, it's <b>stupid.</b> <span style="font-size: small;">Make them earn it</span></span>! If you can get away, you deserved to. If you can't out-damage them because you're in offensive stance and they're in defensive stance, it's not unfair- they're just thinking ahead of you. Don't lower your defenses just because you think that extra bit of dps that you used to get against mobs is going to turn the tide- because you're thinking in terms of a kill you haven't earned yet and not thinking with survival in mind. If all those nasty roots and spells and whatever are eating you up, stock up on items that take care of them: potions, resist gear, etc. If it isn't a piece of gear with surviving an attack in its design, you made a mistake. It takes time, patience, and smarts to figure out all the little tricks, tactics, and items that help you survive in this world. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: large;">It's not about killing- it's about depriving your enemy of the kill</span>. <b>If this isn't your primary thought when planning every last detail your character from skills to selections to gear to hotkeys to camera angle to system options, <u><i>see Law #1</i></u></b>. You aren't a good PvPer because of who you fight and which fights you win, <span style="color: #ff9900;">you are a good PvPer depending on your overall level of preparation and how many times you can count that that preparation saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</span></span><b>Law of the Jungle #5: <span style="font-size: small;color: #cc00ff;">You are never going to be a god</span></b>Too many of you have had that time when you have those cute little adolescent fantasies about being a powerful, unstoppable killing machine with the title of Overlord while wielding the shiniest, largest and most phallic weapon in Norrath and laying out every single foe you happen to encounter through sheer invincibility. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">It ain't gonna happen- ever. (See Law #1)</span> PvP isn't for people who like to play single-player games in godmode, spanky. <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;">You didn't come here to be godlike, you came here to embrace mortality</span><b>. </b>You <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;"><b>aren't just here to kill other players- you came here to give them permission to kill you</b></span>, to utilize advatages over you, to take advantage of your weaknesses, to leave you broken and bleeding while they /dance on your corpse and count their money. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;"><b>If you came here planning on becoming the all-powerful king of the hill that no one can topple, you made a mistake</b></span>. Even as the server ages, everyone's going to bunch up in the higher levels and guilds and players are going to be after you more than ever. You will never be safe again.<span style="font-size: x-large;color: #ff0000;"> The safe servers are still where you left them.l</span><b>Law of the Jungle #6: <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">It's still just a game</span></b>Playing on a PvP server doesn't take cojones. It doesn't take an iron will, or an asbestos stomach. It doesn't make you a man. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You're still an EQ2 geek just like the rest of us, it's just a lot more difficult</span>. <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;">If it's too hard, too frustrating, too unfair, too immature, too cutthroat, too inconvenient, or if you're just not that good at it or if you think that so-and-so shouldn't be doing such-and-such because it "ruins" your fun, <i><u>then it's not for you</u></i></span>. You're here if you enjoy what you're playing. <span style="color: #ff0000;">If you are here because you <span style="font-size: small;"><u><i>want</i></u></span> to enjoy it</span>, <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">but you're not, <b>don't expect SOE to get rid of everything you don't like about it</b></span>. <b><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">It is what it is.</span></b> It's MEAN. And if  someone one-shots you, or takes your plat that you were just on your way to bank, or whatever else it may be that spoiled your plans, well, you either suck it up and keep playing or you're on the wrong server. It's only "griefing" if you let it give you grief.<span style="font-size: large;color: #ffff00;"><b> If you can't laugh it off, you're the problem</b></span>. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>If you're not having fun, you made a mistake</b></span>. <span style="font-size: small;color: #00ff00;">This ugly duckling isn't going to grow up into a swan, you just have to love it unconditionally and understand that yes, it's always going to look like that</span>. There's no shame in playing on the blue servers if that's more your cup of tea, we're all here to play games, and the game you play isn't a reflection on your status as a human being. But PvP is a different game. If you could go live in a beachhouse with central air and plasma-screen TV's for the same price, why would you move into a shack with no plumbing or power and complain about the leak in the roof? You have to want to live in this shack. Don't expect SOE to turn it into a resort, they've already built those for you.All of these factors lead me to one final point.<span style="font-size: medium;"> Filling up boards with complaints that "X class can do this and I can't and so-and-so ganked me when I was fighting and I was 10 levels lower than him and I can't go anywhere without being bind-camped  and SOE needs to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY" doesn't help anyone- <span style="color: #ff0000;">it only buries legitimate issues like bugs and exploits under mountains of whining by people who can't seem to understand that they are just not that good at the game</span>. There's only one thing that should be on your mind when you think about all the problems with PvP and the PvP servers. </span><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">The final, and truest Law of the Jungle:</span><b><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #ff0000;">LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.</span></b></p>

Raidyen
01-03-2008, 01:17 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't play an assassin anymore in PvP, I play berserker.The "heal" you speak of is very slight and it procs 5x a minute for a max of maybe 1k hp.  No fights last this long.  With haste, let's SAY that the person is using mastercrafted and let's SAY that it actually proc'd and let's SAY that he has a lot of haste and a long delay weapon.  An average fight is 5-10 seconds, so it proc'd what... twice?  Maybe a 500 point heal?  Maybe?  Who doesn't have self heals anymore?Most people melee for 500+ damage.  Scout dps poisons (Caustic in pvp, most dont' use hemo cuz it takes too long to tick) do maybe... 300 in pvp.  If they proc.  The only scouts that habitually use shields tbh are bards, sometimes swashies and rangers, but not typically.  Brigands either use 1h with lunge reversal or dual wield, assassins use dual wield, rangers and swashies usually dual wield.  ONE scout class can run that fast, and that's Rangers.  And that's because everything they do is ranged, so they must be able to get that far out quickly.  The only classes that can spec for tanking are swashies and brigands, and that's because they don't have the burst dps that assassins and rangers get.  They are the tougher, debuffing/tanking scout, while Assassins and Rangers are the DPS scout.  (this is not to say, of course, that swashies and brigands can not dps, since they do it quite well.) I haven't seen a scout with more HP than me yet.  If they do, they had to devote a lot of AA points into it (AssassinsRangers must spend 16 points, Brigands/Swashies must spend more) and have good gear that they earned.  What do scouts sacrifice?They sacrifice the longterm dps that mages get for short term burst dps.  They sacrifice the mitigation/HP of a tank, the heals of a healer, the utility of a support class, for just straight DPS.I assume you play a cloth class, probably a summoner since you seem to know nothing of how mages can fight back.  If you're a summoner, I'm sorry, you're [Removed for Content] either way.  If you're a Coercer/Illy, Wizard/Warlock, there are plenty of ways to win and defeat scouts.  </blockquote><p>Think this post got lost in the laundry list of pointless posts that followed it.  This effectively counters every single complaint the OP had, and yet it got pretty much ignored with the exception of one person complaining about T8 resists, which have nothing to do with the OP.  Counter the points that are made here if you can, thats called a discussion.</p>

Csky
01-03-2008, 01:18 PM
<p>quote</p><p>It's shocking that classes who's primary function is being a hunter are good for pvp, right?</p><p>actually thier primary function is a "scout" which has 0 to do with PVP</p><p>a scout is supposed to avoid confrontation while scoping an area unseen.. not run around farming people with thier scouting tools as PVP Gods</p>

Raidyen
01-03-2008, 01:18 PM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote><p>Please take a look at this thread.   <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PVP</a></p><p>The class boards are also extremely useful! </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=87" target="_blank">Furies</a></p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I seriously doubt many people will click that or even be able to find the pertinant sections due to being busy crying, so I will highlight the parts they need to truly understand 8P</span></b></p><p><i>Editor's Note: The first thing I did before leaving PVE and restarting on Nagafen was sift through the PvP forums.  I remember very clearly one of the stickied posts in the old forums, as it laid out the "feel" of EQ2 PvP very poignantly for me even before I got to the server in the first place.  Sadly, the post was lost when the forums were changed, but today I saw someone who had it archived post it again, and I think it needs to be brought back as a sticky.  I do not remember the name of the original poster, so if someone has that info I'll edit this thread to give them full credit as deserved.  I do remember them only having a handful (5? 8?) total posts and I thought that it was pretty swank to see someone who's not a forum regular express themselves so clearly.  And remember, this was posted a *long* time ago.  In light of the changes in the works for PvP, and the generally escalating whinefests over the last year here, I think this needs to be re-read by all of us, so without further ado:</i><b>-------------------------------------------Disclaimer: </b>This is going to be long, opinionated, and blunt, but I've been reading a few too many threads from people who don't seem to understand what it is that they got themselves into, and are clamoring for SOE to run to the rescue and change everything about the game to suit their particular idea of just what "PvP" is. This is coming from a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, but by no means am I claiming to be an expert on EQ or PvP. I'm just a player who understands what game it is I'm playing.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Now then, who I am: I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek back when it was the only "red" server there was. I played on Tallon Zek when it opened, was a long-time player there during the glory days of large-scale good vs. evil battles, daily raids between Nektulos and West Freeport, and moved on to Sullon Zek when it opened, and played on the good (read: suicidal) team. I was mediocre at best, hardly a feared PKer, but I learned to survive and enjoyed what I played, no matter if I was outmatched or not. I understood what I was playing. Now that EQ2 has opened PvP servers, I couldn't help but join in. But I've noticed that there are large numbers of "bluebies" who came to these servers not understanding the nature of PvP in EQ games. This is evident in the incredible number of threads on this board where people are crying for everything to be changed to support what they thought it is. So let's get this started with the fundamental laws of the jungle</span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #1: <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You are going to die.</span></b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">There's no getting out of it. <span style="font-size: medium;">You did not come here to be safe</span>. You were safe before</span>. Now, those strawberry fields of treasure and experience are crawling with cutthroats who know where you used to go, what you used to do, what you used to seek there, and how to use this knowledge to catch you and inflict death on you. They aren't going to wait for you to get ready. They aren't going to play fair. They aren't going to care if a particular spell or tactic is too devastating if they catch you with it. Your only way around it is to learn them- learn where they are, learn what they're after, learn what they're going to do, and prepare yourself ahead of time. And no matter how well-prepared you are for what's out there- you are still going to die. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">There is no way out of Law #1</span>. Whether it's at the hands of someone at the top of your attack range picking you off just because you're there, whether it's a group of players lower than you who gang up and tear you apart, whether it's an even-con, similar class who just happens to get that last shot in before you, whether it's some punk who sucker-punches you right after a tough fight, or whether it's someone whom you thought had no chance in hell who happens to get lucky, you're going to be killed. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">If this bothers you, you made a mistake</span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #2: This isn't your mother's RPG</b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You can't play the same EQ2 you played when they weren't after you</span>. The gear that was excellent enough to live in because of its effectiveness against the mindless MOBs isn't worth squat- you have to outfit yourself with your most dreaded foes in mind. Resists are king, the stats you used to drool over are just going to have to take the bench. You can't just trot over to your favorite hunting grounds to knock out that writ or exploration quest anymore. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">They know that those spots attract people who still think that they're playing the same game, and they will be waiting for you. (See Law #1) You have to forget everything you learned on the blue servers, and be prepared to learn it all over again.</span> There are new rules for how to get a level. There are new rules for where to hunt, and there are new rules for which routes to take through the lands. If it's something that many people used to do or where many people used to go, it is now bait that will lead many people to their deaths. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">If you thought that you were going to play the same route you played before to get to level 60-whatever except that you can kill people now, <b>you made a mistake</b></span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">All classes have advantages in certain situations. <b><i><u>If you find yourself in one of these situations and you aren't the class in question, see Law #1</u></i></b>. So, such-and-such a class can take you down solo if they get the jump on you, if all they do is X and Y? Well, yes. That's what they do, and you were there. <span style="font-size: medium;">The essence of EQ2 is that all classes have advantages and weaknesses, and <u><b>the way we overcome our weaknesses isn't telling the game developer to take them away, or give you someone else's advantage</b></u></span></span>. The way you overcome these weaknesses is by <b>grouping</b> with someone who can complement them. <span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">You're not here to run around solo and have a fair, balanced even 1v1 match against everyone you meet. <u>That's not PvP, that's <b>dueling</b></u></span></span>. Running around alone isn't something you have the right to do. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: small;">Not all classes were meant to solo in PvE as well as others, <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ffff00;">what makes you think this is any different</span>?</span> </span>And if your class can't do what so-and-so does, they shouldn't. Everyone has "certain classes" who flat-out have them beat. Everyone has classes that can't hold a candle to them. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance</span>. There's more to PvP that who has what nuke or how many hitpoints or what dps rate is. PvP is about knowing <b>everything</b> you can do and how it works, not just what numbers scrolled up when you fought mobs before. If you can't fight them, learn how to. If you can't learn and expect SOE to change everything around to suit you, you made a mistake. Crying that you can't beat X class and they need to be nerfed doesn't mean you're right, it means you're an unskilled player who doesn't understand how to play his class. You also have to understand the other classes and what their weaknesses are. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;"><b>Learn, Adapt, and Grow; if you can't do that then you're not cut out for this</b></span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #4: Success is measured by survival</b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Any idiot can rack up a high number of kills, that doesn't make them skilled. Your skill isn't determined by how many people of what level you can take on. And the little punk who ran away, or zoned, or avoided you altogether, <span style="font-size: small;">he's not a coward, he's <b>smart</b></span></span>. Just because you engage someone doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. You have to <b>earn </b>that kill. If they get away, they survived. <span style="color: #ff0000;">If they fight back too hard and you're outmatched, sticking around and letting them have you isn't brave or honorable, it's <b>stupid.</b> <span style="font-size: small;">Make them earn it</span></span>! If you can get away, you deserved to. If you can't out-damage them because you're in offensive stance and they're in defensive stance, it's not unfair- they're just thinking ahead of you. Don't lower your defenses just because you think that extra bit of dps that you used to get against mobs is going to turn the tide- because you're thinking in terms of a kill you haven't earned yet and not thinking with survival in mind. If all those nasty roots and spells and whatever are eating you up, stock up on items that take care of them: potions, resist gear, etc. If it isn't a piece of gear with surviving an attack in its design, you made a mistake. It takes time, patience, and smarts to figure out all the little tricks, tactics, and items that help you survive in this world. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: large;">It's not about killing- it's about depriving your enemy of the kill</span>. <b>If this isn't your primary thought when planning every last detail your character from skills to selections to gear to hotkeys to camera angle to system options, <u><i>see Law #1</i></u></b>. You aren't a good PvPer because of who you fight and which fights you win, <span style="color: #ff9900;">you are a good PvPer depending on your overall level of preparation and how many times you can count that that preparation saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</span></span><b>Law of the Jungle #5: <span style="font-size: small;color: #cc00ff;">You are never going to be a god</span></b>Too many of you have had that time when you have those cute little adolescent fantasies about being a powerful, unstoppable killing machine with the title of Overlord while wielding the shiniest, largest and most phallic weapon in Norrath and laying out every single foe you happen to encounter through sheer invincibility. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">It ain't gonna happen- ever. (See Law #1)</span> PvP isn't for people who like to play single-player games in godmode, spanky. <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;">You didn't come here to be godlike, you came here to embrace mortality</span><b>. </b>You <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;"><b>aren't just here to kill other players- you came here to give them permission to kill you</b></span>, to utilize advatages over you, to take advantage of your weaknesses, to leave you broken and bleeding while they /dance on your corpse and count their money. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;"><b>If you came here planning on becoming the all-powerful king of the hill that no one can topple, you made a mistake</b></span>. Even as the server ages, everyone's going to bunch up in the higher levels and guilds and players are going to be after you more than ever. You will never be safe again.<span style="font-size: x-large;color: #ff0000;"> The safe servers are still where you left them.l</span><b>Law of the Jungle #6: <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">It's still just a game</span></b>Playing on a PvP server doesn't take cojones. It doesn't take an iron will, or an asbestos stomach. It doesn't make you a man. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You're still an EQ2 geek just like the rest of us, it's just a lot more difficult</span>. <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;">If it's too hard, too frustrating, too unfair, too immature, too cutthroat, too inconvenient, or if you're just not that good at it or if you think that so-and-so shouldn't be doing such-and-such because it "ruins" your fun, <i><u>then it's not for you</u></i></span>. You're here if you enjoy what you're playing. <span style="color: #ff0000;">If you are here because you <span style="font-size: small;"><u><i>want</i></u></span> to enjoy it</span>, <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">but you're not, <b>don't expect SOE to get rid of everything you don't like about it</b></span>. <b><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">It is what it is.</span></b> It's MEAN. And if  someone one-shots you, or takes your plat that you were just on your way to bank, or whatever else it may be that spoiled your plans, well, you either suck it up and keep playing or you're on the wrong server. It's only "griefing" if you let it give you grief.<span style="font-size: large;color: #ffff00;"><b> If you can't laugh it off, you're the problem</b></span>. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>If you're not having fun, you made a mistake</b></span>. <span style="font-size: small;color: #00ff00;">This ugly duckling isn't going to grow up into a swan, you just have to love it unconditionally and understand that yes, it's always going to look like that</span>. There's no shame in playing on the blue servers if that's more your cup of tea, we're all here to play games, and the game you play isn't a reflection on your status as a human being. But PvP is a different game. If you could go live in a beachhouse with central air and plasma-screen TV's for the same price, why would you move into a shack with no plumbing or power and complain about the leak in the roof? You have to want to live in this shack. Don't expect SOE to turn it into a resort, they've already built those for you.All of these factors lead me to one final point.<span style="font-size: medium;"> Filling up boards with complaints that "X class can do this and I can't and so-and-so ganked me when I was fighting and I was 10 levels lower than him and I can't go anywhere without being bind-camped  and SOE needs to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY" doesn't help anyone- <span style="color: #ff0000;">it only buries legitimate issues like bugs and exploits under mountains of whining by people who can't seem to understand that they are just not that good at the game</span>. There's only one thing that should be on your mind when you think about all the problems with PvP and the PvP servers. </span><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">The final, and truest Law of the Jungle:</span><b><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #ff0000;">LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.</span></b></p></blockquote>Love it.

Bozidar
01-03-2008, 01:26 PM
<cite>Zimike wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem is people can't get their brains around that there is no real balance in solo pvp, nor should sacrifices/changes be made to strieve for this.  It's a group game.  Come to me with a problem in group pvp and i'll champion that cause with you to get dev attention.</p><p>but "oh no, scouts have so many utilities" -- i read that 2 years ago when the pvp servers came out.  It's nothing new.</p><p> It's shocking that classes who's primary function is being a hunter are good for pvp, right?</p></blockquote>I understand how groups work and I do know some classes fit better in groups, but you can just as easily take these same Scout classes, put them in a group, and still they would be more powerful then the mages. There are balacing issues group or no group. You are thinking from a PVE stand point and need to open your eyes. </blockquote><p>sorry, wrong.  I've never played this game on a pve server, i'm talking purely pvp.</p><p>It's not about some classes that fit better in groups, ALL CLASSES ARE BETTER IN A GOOD GROUP.  Everyone has their role, everyone has a skill to bring to the table to make the whole group more effective.  EVERY class.</p><p>You need to open your eyes.  Guys walking around with stealth and track are always going to have the advantage in solo pvp.  It's just common sense.</p><p>/invite is the only thing you require for gameplay balance, i promise you.</p>

Csky
01-03-2008, 01:27 PM
<p>your "laws of the jungle" you so religiously quote and worship was written by a PLAYER ( and a scout LOL)</p><p> it wasnt written by a dev or anyone from SOE so you can quote it all you want..in as big and colorful letters as you want, but all it is the opinion of another player with his opinions on PVP and doesnt hold water</p><p>and for this</p><p>"/invite is the only thing you require for gameplay balance, i promise you."</p><p>if im forced to group up to counter a scout on my plate wearing fighter class id quit</p>

Bozidar
01-03-2008, 01:29 PM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>quote</p><p>It's shocking that classes who's primary function is being a hunter are good for pvp, right?</p><p>actually thier primary function is a "scout" which has 0 to do with PVP</p><p>a scout is supposed to avoid confrontation while scoping an area unseen.. not run around farming people with thier scouting tools as PVP Gods</p></blockquote><p>A scout is the general class archtype. How about the classes called "rogue", or "predator".  Think that their just walking radar stations?</p><p>Be real.. ALL scouts, and especially the predators and rogues, are ambush classes.  They walk up to a player, OR A MOB, and stab them in the back unseen.  That's what they are, it's what they do, and they're always going to have an advantage in pvp because of this.</p><p>/invite a scout, tell him to keep his eyes open, and when he finds a target nuke the living hell out of it, taunt it away, heal the guy getting beat on, or punch it in the face.</p><p>Honestly, this isn't a complicated game.</p>

Bozidar
01-03-2008, 01:32 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't play an assassin anymore in PvP, I play berserker.The "heal" you speak of is very slight and it procs 5x a minute for a max of maybe 1k hp.  No fights last this long.  With haste, let's SAY that the person is using mastercrafted and let's SAY that it actually proc'd and let's SAY that he has a lot of haste and a long delay weapon.  An average fight is 5-10 seconds, so it proc'd what... twice?  Maybe a 500 point heal?  Maybe?  Who doesn't have self heals anymore?Most people melee for 500+ damage.  Scout dps poisons (Caustic in pvp, most dont' use hemo cuz it takes too long to tick) do maybe... 300 in pvp.  If they proc.  The only scouts that habitually use shields tbh are bards, sometimes swashies and rangers, but not typically.  Brigands either use 1h with lunge reversal or dual wield, assassins use dual wield, rangers and swashies usually dual wield.  ONE scout class can run that fast, and that's Rangers.  And that's because everything they do is ranged, so they must be able to get that far out quickly.  The only classes that can spec for tanking are swashies and brigands, and that's because they don't have the burst dps that assassins and rangers get.  They are the tougher, debuffing/tanking scout, while Assassins and Rangers are the DPS scout.  (this is not to say, of course, that swashies and brigands can not dps, since they do it quite well.) I haven't seen a scout with more HP than me yet.  If they do, they had to devote a lot of AA points into it (AssassinsRangers must spend 16 points, Brigands/Swashies must spend more) and have good gear that they earned.  What do scouts sacrifice?They sacrifice the longterm dps that mages get for short term burst dps.  They sacrifice the mitigation/HP of a tank, the heals of a healer, the utility of a support class, for just straight DPS.I assume you play a cloth class, probably a summoner since you seem to know nothing of how mages can fight back.  If you're a summoner, I'm sorry, you're [Removed for Content] either way.  If you're a Coercer/Illy, Wizard/Warlock, there are plenty of ways to win and defeat scouts.  </blockquote><p>Think this post got lost in the laundry list of pointless posts that followed it.  This effectively counters every single complaint the OP had, and yet it got pretty much ignored with the exception of one person complaining about T8 resists, which have nothing to do with the OP.  Counter the points that are made here if you can, thats called a discussion.</p></blockquote>vydar's a pretty bright guy.  if he was arguing against me i'd probably ignore him and change the subject again, too.

Bozidar
01-03-2008, 01:37 PM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>and for this</p><p>"/invite is the only thing you require for gameplay balance, i promise you."</p><p>if im forced to group up to counter a scout on my plate wearing fighter class id quit</p></blockquote><p>I've never lost a 1v1 on a tank vs a scout when the levels were even close to even.</p><p>If you're a tank losing to scouts 1v1 then you have a problem that has nothing to do with the advantages that a scout has.</p><p>But as a tank, more than any other class, /invite is your most powerful tool.  You bring very little to the table in terms of what needs to be accomplished.  The best thing you do is take a hit.  What the heck good is that when you're solo?   You can't stop people from getting away, you can't really heal yourself, you can't find foes well, and you can't dps effectively without giving up your primary role (taking a hit).</p><p>You don't have to group up to count a scout, you have to group up to counter mages and healers who will rip you apart because you have no way to heal as well as they do, and no way to nuke/root as hard as they do.</p><p>As always, there are ways for all classes to deal with these things and counter them.. but honestly: /invite works way better.  Do what you do best, tank... taunt, block, parry, resist, taunt some more, punch puch, taunt.. keep your budies free to kill stuff and you keep attention on yourself.</p><p>/invite it... love it or hate it, it's the perfect balance for pvp.</p>

BWLeeEllison
01-03-2008, 01:42 PM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>your "laws of the jungle" you so religiously quote and worship was written by a PLAYER ( and a scout LOL)</p><p> it wasnt written by a dev or anyone from SOE so you can quote it all you want..in as big and colorful letters as you want, but all it is the opinion of another player with his opinions on PVP and doesnt hold water</p><p>and for this</p><p>"/invite is the only thing you require for gameplay balance, i promise you."</p><p>if im forced to group up to counter a scout on my plate wearing fighter class id quit</p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Proof yet again that you have the lowest reading comprehension in all of Norrath.  The "scout" you refer to as the author of the Laws of the Jungle is merely the gentlemen who rescued that thread from oblivion.  He didn't write the [Removed for Content] he just reposted it.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: Comic Sans MS;">In response you your final comment....<span style="font-size: xx-large;">BUHBYE!</span></span></b></p>

Bozidar
01-03-2008, 01:43 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree, but I think classes should, and im not sure how to put this, add up. Eg Lets say bards get 20/100 points solo. In a group, they should make up for this.</p><p>But, quite often, I'd rather have 2 brigands over, lets say, a dirge and a brig. In T8, Rogues have been auto attacking ever 2-3 seconds for upwards of 2.2k. And thats just auto attack, add in CAs and the dps is huge. A dirge would never add this dps through his own and through the buffs he gives. Therefore, the brigand is better solo and in groups.</p><p>The same goes for quite a few classes, necros, conjs, coercers etc. At the end of the day, although coercer can do alright DPS and good CC, most groups would prefer another warlock pumping out massive group DPS.</p></blockquote><p>A fair point, but i think this game in pvp is about more than dps.  Bards, coercers, conjs, necro's, ect... they bring a lot more to the table than just DPS.  Backup healing abilities, power regens, health regens, CC, great debuffs, DOT, it all adds up.</p><p>So many folks are fond of saying that fights last 5-10 seconds, but you and i know that group vs group fights generally last a lot longer than this, and those abilities that others bring to the table become vastly more important than pure dps.</p><p>At least, that's the way i see it.</p>

Roald
01-03-2008, 04:45 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree, but I think classes should, and im not sure how to put this, add up. Eg Lets say bards get 20/100 points solo. In a group, they should make up for this.</p><p>But, quite often, I'd rather have 2 brigands over, lets say, a dirge and a brig. In T8, Rogues have been auto attacking ever 2-3 seconds for upwards of 2.2k. And thats just auto attack, add in CAs and the dps is huge. A dirge would never add this dps through his own and through the buffs he gives. Therefore, the brigand is better solo and in groups.</p><p>The same goes for quite a few classes, necros, conjs, coercers etc. At the end of the day, although coercer can do alright DPS and good CC, most groups would prefer another warlock pumping out massive group DPS.</p></blockquote><p>A fair point, but i think this game in pvp is about more than dps.  Bards, coercers, conjs, necro's, ect... they bring a lot more to the table than just DPS.  Backup healing abilities, power regens, health regens, CC, great debuffs, DOT, it all adds up.</p><p>So many folks are fond of saying that fights last 5-10 seconds, but you and i know that group vs group fights generally last a lot longer than this, and those abilities that others bring to the table become vastly more important than pure dps.</p><p>At least, that's the way i see it.</p></blockquote><p>Sadly, as I level up, Im seeing the length of fights drop dramatically. Well, not on my side <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I still have to mezz, lay down reactives, stun/stifle nuke etc etc</p><p>But pred/rogues? If They get the jump on me, I can be dead easily in under 5 seconds. With RoK, the availability of weapons with larger delays increased dramatically. I've seen screenshots of mages literally 1 shotted when a ranger pressed auto attack and got a double attack. I've seen screenshots of Swashies duel wielding weapons that were both critting for 2k+ every 3 seconds.</p><p>Sure, we both know how great your bards health regen and power regen is, and at lower levels it can really own. But when you only have 5 seconds for that buff to work in, it gets a bit dodgy.</p>

Bozidar
01-03-2008, 04:52 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sadly, as I level up, Im seeing the length of fights drop dramatically. Well, not on my side <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> I still have to mezz, lay down reactives, stun/stifle nuke etc etc</p><p>But pred/rogues? If They get the jump on me, I can be dead easily in under 5 seconds. With RoK, the availability of weapons with larger delays increased dramatically. I've seen screenshots of mages literally 1 shotted when a ranger pressed auto attack and got a double attack. I've seen screenshots of Swashies duel wielding weapons that were both critting for 2k+ every 3 seconds.</p><p>Sure, we both know how great your bards health regen and power regen is, and at lower levels it can really own. But when you only have 5 seconds for that buff to work in, it gets a bit dodgy.</p></blockquote><p>You're throwing 2 factors into this though:</p><p>1) 1v1 pvp.</p><p>2) T8 pvp.</p><p>part 1 just doesn't get me excited.  I think the game has some interest in 1v1 duels.. but there are too many factors involved IMO for a 1v1 at anything but end-game to mean anything. Even then.. it still isn't going to get my juices going.</p><p>part 2 worries me, because we saw all kinds of broken game mechanics when end-game used to be T7.  Now we're seeing huge melee crits and spike damage from auto attacks after they nerfed the high holy heck out of the CA and spell spike damage that was 1 shotting people.  I have to believe that they're going to fix this.  Somehow.. and we can hope they dont' break something else in the process.  People just shouldnt' be auto-attacking for more damage than end-game CAs and spells do.</p>

Shadow_Viper
01-03-2008, 06:58 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say let the Swashys and Brigands keep their DPS,just remove resists and ill be happy(for pvp of course).And if they dont want to remove resists then i say halve their damage on all the CA's and auto attacks in pvp.</blockquote>If you find you're having problems with rogues, I would suggest asking for advice on your class boards. The class boards of these forums are really a great tool! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Shadow_Viper
01-03-2008, 07:06 PM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote><p>Please take a look at this thread.   <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PVP</a></p><p>The class boards are also extremely useful! </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=87" target="_blank">Furies</a></p></blockquote>Sir, i dont think i need anyone to teach me the classes i play.</blockquote><p>I am only trying to be helpful. I know when I have difficulties with a certain class in PVP, I ask my guildies for advice and then I go and read the class boards to see if I can find any useful information. I was only suggesting that it would be better to spend your time in a more constructive manner, rather than making negative posts calling for a certain class to be nerfed.</p><p>So far, for example, the class boards have been a big help with different AA spec suggestions.</p>

Shadow_Viper
01-03-2008, 07:08 PM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>quote</p><p>It's shocking that classes who's primary function is being a hunter are good for pvp, right?</p><p>actually thier primary function is a "scout" which has 0 to do with PVP</p><p>a scout is supposed to avoid confrontation while scoping an area unseen.. not run around farming people with thier scouting tools as PVP Gods</p></blockquote>Scouts are hardly PVP gods, please refrain from trolling. Thank you.

Shadow_Viper
01-03-2008, 07:11 PM
<cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote><p>Please take a look at this thread.   <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PVP</a></p><p>The class boards are also extremely useful! </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=87" target="_blank">Furies</a></p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;color: #0099ff;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I seriously doubt many people will click that or even be able to find the pertinant sections due to being busy crying, so I will highlight the parts they need to truly understand 8P</span></b></p><p><i>Editor's Note: The first thing I did before leaving PVE and restarting on Nagafen was sift through the PvP forums.  I remember very clearly one of the stickied posts in the old forums, as it laid out the "feel" of EQ2 PvP very poignantly for me even before I got to the server in the first place.  Sadly, the post was lost when the forums were changed, but today I saw someone who had it archived post it again, and I think it needs to be brought back as a sticky.  I do not remember the name of the original poster, so if someone has that info I'll edit this thread to give them full credit as deserved.  I do remember them only having a handful (5? 8?) total posts and I thought that it was pretty swank to see someone who's not a forum regular express themselves so clearly.  And remember, this was posted a *long* time ago.  In light of the changes in the works for PvP, and the generally escalating whinefests over the last year here, I think this needs to be re-read by all of us, so without further ado:</i><b>-------------------------------------------Disclaimer: </b>This is going to be long, opinionated, and blunt, but I've been reading a few too many threads from people who don't seem to understand what it is that they got themselves into, and are clamoring for SOE to run to the rescue and change everything about the game to suit their particular idea of just what "PvP" is. This is coming from a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, but by no means am I claiming to be an expert on EQ or PvP. I'm just a player who understands what game it is I'm playing.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Now then, who I am: I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek back when it was the only "red" server there was. I played on Tallon Zek when it opened, was a long-time player there during the glory days of large-scale good vs. evil battles, daily raids between Nektulos and West Freeport, and moved on to Sullon Zek when it opened, and played on the good (read: suicidal) team. I was mediocre at best, hardly a feared PKer, but I learned to survive and enjoyed what I played, no matter if I was outmatched or not. I understood what I was playing. Now that EQ2 has opened PvP servers, I couldn't help but join in. But I've noticed that there are large numbers of "bluebies" who came to these servers not understanding the nature of PvP in EQ games. This is evident in the incredible number of threads on this board where people are crying for everything to be changed to support what they thought it is. So let's get this started with the fundamental laws of the jungle</span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #1: <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You are going to die.</span></b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">There's no getting out of it. <span style="font-size: medium;">You did not come here to be safe</span>. You were safe before</span>. Now, those strawberry fields of treasure and experience are crawling with cutthroats who know where you used to go, what you used to do, what you used to seek there, and how to use this knowledge to catch you and inflict death on you. They aren't going to wait for you to get ready. They aren't going to play fair. They aren't going to care if a particular spell or tactic is too devastating if they catch you with it. Your only way around it is to learn them- learn where they are, learn what they're after, learn what they're going to do, and prepare yourself ahead of time. And no matter how well-prepared you are for what's out there- you are still going to die. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">There is no way out of Law #1</span>. Whether it's at the hands of someone at the top of your attack range picking you off just because you're there, whether it's a group of players lower than you who gang up and tear you apart, whether it's an even-con, similar class who just happens to get that last shot in before you, whether it's some punk who sucker-punches you right after a tough fight, or whether it's someone whom you thought had no chance in hell who happens to get lucky, you're going to be killed. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">If this bothers you, you made a mistake</span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #2: This isn't your mother's RPG</b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You can't play the same EQ2 you played when they weren't after you</span>. The gear that was excellent enough to live in because of its effectiveness against the mindless MOBs isn't worth squat- you have to outfit yourself with your most dreaded foes in mind. Resists are king, the stats you used to drool over are just going to have to take the bench. You can't just trot over to your favorite hunting grounds to knock out that writ or exploration quest anymore. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">They know that those spots attract people who still think that they're playing the same game, and they will be waiting for you. (See Law #1) You have to forget everything you learned on the blue servers, and be prepared to learn it all over again.</span> There are new rules for how to get a level. There are new rules for where to hunt, and there are new rules for which routes to take through the lands. If it's something that many people used to do or where many people used to go, it is now bait that will lead many people to their deaths. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">If you thought that you were going to play the same route you played before to get to level 60-whatever except that you can kill people now, <b>you made a mistake</b></span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">All classes have advantages in certain situations. <b><i><u>If you find yourself in one of these situations and you aren't the class in question, see Law #1</u></i></b>. So, such-and-such a class can take you down solo if they get the jump on you, if all they do is X and Y? Well, yes. That's what they do, and you were there. <span style="font-size: medium;">The essence of EQ2 is that all classes have advantages and weaknesses, and <u><b>the way we overcome our weaknesses isn't telling the game developer to take them away, or give you someone else's advantage</b></u></span></span>. The way you overcome these weaknesses is by <b>grouping</b> with someone who can complement them. <span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">You're not here to run around solo and have a fair, balanced even 1v1 match against everyone you meet. <u>That's not PvP, that's <b>dueling</b></u></span></span>. Running around alone isn't something you have the right to do. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: small;">Not all classes were meant to solo in PvE as well as others, <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ffff00;">what makes you think this is any different</span>?</span> </span>And if your class can't do what so-and-so does, they shouldn't. Everyone has "certain classes" who flat-out have them beat. Everyone has classes that can't hold a candle to them. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance</span>. There's more to PvP that who has what nuke or how many hitpoints or what dps rate is. PvP is about knowing <b>everything</b> you can do and how it works, not just what numbers scrolled up when you fought mobs before. If you can't fight them, learn how to. If you can't learn and expect SOE to change everything around to suit you, you made a mistake. Crying that you can't beat X class and they need to be nerfed doesn't mean you're right, it means you're an unskilled player who doesn't understand how to play his class. You also have to understand the other classes and what their weaknesses are. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;"><b>Learn, Adapt, and Grow; if you can't do that then you're not cut out for this</b></span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #4: Success is measured by survival</b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Any idiot can rack up a high number of kills, that doesn't make them skilled. Your skill isn't determined by how many people of what level you can take on. And the little punk who ran away, or zoned, or avoided you altogether, <span style="font-size: small;">he's not a coward, he's <b>smart</b></span></span>. Just because you engage someone doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. You have to <b>earn </b>that kill. If they get away, they survived. <span style="color: #ff0000;">If they fight back too hard and you're outmatched, sticking around and letting them have you isn't brave or honorable, it's <b>stupid.</b> <span style="font-size: small;">Make them earn it</span></span>! If you can get away, you deserved to. If you can't out-damage them because you're in offensive stance and they're in defensive stance, it's not unfair- they're just thinking ahead of you. Don't lower your defenses just because you think that extra bit of dps that you used to get against mobs is going to turn the tide- because you're thinking in terms of a kill you haven't earned yet and not thinking with survival in mind. If all those nasty roots and spells and whatever are eating you up, stock up on items that take care of them: potions, resist gear, etc. If it isn't a piece of gear with surviving an attack in its design, you made a mistake. It takes time, patience, and smarts to figure out all the little tricks, tactics, and items that help you survive in this world. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: large;">It's not about killing- it's about depriving your enemy of the kill</span>. <b>If this isn't your primary thought when planning every last detail your character from skills to selections to gear to hotkeys to camera angle to system options, <u><i>see Law #1</i></u></b>. You aren't a good PvPer because of who you fight and which fights you win, <span style="color: #ff9900;">you are a good PvPer depending on your overall level of preparation and how many times you can count that that preparation saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</span></span><b>Law of the Jungle #5: <span style="font-size: small;color: #cc00ff;">You are never going to be a god</span></b>Too many of you have had that time when you have those cute little adolescent fantasies about being a powerful, unstoppable killing machine with the title of Overlord while wielding the shiniest, largest and most phallic weapon in Norrath and laying out every single foe you happen to encounter through sheer invincibility. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">It ain't gonna happen- ever. (See Law #1)</span> PvP isn't for people who like to play single-player games in godmode, spanky. <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;">You didn't come here to be godlike, you came here to embrace mortality</span><b>. </b>You <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;"><b>aren't just here to kill other players- you came here to give them permission to kill you</b></span>, to utilize advatages over you, to take advantage of your weaknesses, to leave you broken and bleeding while they /dance on your corpse and count their money. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;"><b>If you came here planning on becoming the all-powerful king of the hill that no one can topple, you made a mistake</b></span>. Even as the server ages, everyone's going to bunch up in the higher levels and guilds and players are going to be after you more than ever. You will never be safe again.<span style="font-size: x-large;color: #ff0000;"> The safe servers are still where you left them.l</span><b>Law of the Jungle #6: <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">It's still just a game</span></b>Playing on a PvP server doesn't take cojones. It doesn't take an iron will, or an asbestos stomach. It doesn't make you a man. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You're still an EQ2 geek just like the rest of us, it's just a lot more difficult</span>. <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;">If it's too hard, too frustrating, too unfair, too immature, too cutthroat, too inconvenient, or if you're just not that good at it or if you think that so-and-so shouldn't be doing such-and-such because it "ruins" your fun, <i><u>then it's not for you</u></i></span>. You're here if you enjoy what you're playing. <span style="color: #ff0000;">If you are here because you <span style="font-size: small;"><u><i>want</i></u></span> to enjoy it</span>, <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">but you're not, <b>don't expect SOE to get rid of everything you don't like about it</b></span>. <b><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">It is what it is.</span></b> It's MEAN. And if  someone one-shots you, or takes your plat that you were just on your way to bank, or whatever else it may be that spoiled your plans, well, you either suck it up and keep playing or you're on the wrong server. It's only "griefing" if you let it give you grief.<span style="font-size: large;color: #ffff00;"><b> If you can't laugh it off, you're the problem</b></span>. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>If you're not having fun, you made a mistake</b></span>. <span style="font-size: small;color: #00ff00;">This ugly duckling isn't going to grow up into a swan, you just have to love it unconditionally and understand that yes, it's always going to look like that</span>. There's no shame in playing on the blue servers if that's more your cup of tea, we're all here to play games, and the game you play isn't a reflection on your status as a human being. But PvP is a different game. If you could go live in a beachhouse with central air and plasma-screen TV's for the same price, why would you move into a shack with no plumbing or power and complain about the leak in the roof? You have to want to live in this shack. Don't expect SOE to turn it into a resort, they've already built those for you.All of these factors lead me to one final point.<span style="font-size: medium;"> Filling up boards with complaints that "X class can do this and I can't and so-and-so ganked me when I was fighting and I was 10 levels lower than him and I can't go anywhere without being bind-camped  and SOE needs to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY" doesn't help anyone- <span style="color: #ff0000;">it only buries legitimate issues like bugs and exploits under mountains of whining by people who can't seem to understand that they are just not that good at the game</span>. There's only one thing that should be on your mind when you think about all the problems with PvP and the PvP servers. </span><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">The final, and truest Law of the Jungle:</span><b><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #ff0000;">LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.</span></b></p></blockquote>Thank you.

Raidyen
01-03-2008, 07:34 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't play an assassin anymore in PvP, I play berserker.The "heal" you speak of is very slight and it procs 5x a minute for a max of maybe 1k hp.  No fights last this long.  With haste, let's SAY that the person is using mastercrafted and let's SAY that it actually proc'd and let's SAY that he has a lot of haste and a long delay weapon.  An average fight is 5-10 seconds, so it proc'd what... twice?  Maybe a 500 point heal?  Maybe?  Who doesn't have self heals anymore?Most people melee for 500+ damage.  Scout dps poisons (Caustic in pvp, most dont' use hemo cuz it takes too long to tick) do maybe... 300 in pvp.  If they proc.  The only scouts that habitually use shields tbh are bards, sometimes swashies and rangers, but not typically.  Brigands either use 1h with lunge reversal or dual wield, assassins use dual wield, rangers and swashies usually dual wield.  ONE scout class can run that fast, and that's Rangers.  And that's because everything they do is ranged, so they must be able to get that far out quickly.  The only classes that can spec for tanking are swashies and brigands, and that's because they don't have the burst dps that assassins and rangers get.  They are the tougher, debuffing/tanking scout, while Assassins and Rangers are the DPS scout.  (this is not to say, of course, that swashies and brigands can not dps, since they do it quite well.) I haven't seen a scout with more HP than me yet.  If they do, they had to devote a lot of AA points into it (AssassinsRangers must spend 16 points, Brigands/Swashies must spend more) and have good gear that they earned.  What do scouts sacrifice?They sacrifice the longterm dps that mages get for short term burst dps.  They sacrifice the mitigation/HP of a tank, the heals of a healer, the utility of a support class, for just straight DPS.I assume you play a cloth class, probably a summoner since you seem to know nothing of how mages can fight back.  If you're a summoner, I'm sorry, you're [Removed for Content] either way.  If you're a Coercer/Illy, Wizard/Warlock, there are plenty of ways to win and defeat scouts.  </blockquote><p>Think this post got lost in the laundry list of pointless posts that followed it.  This effectively counters every single complaint the OP had, and yet it got pretty much ignored with the exception of one person complaining about T8 resists, which have nothing to do with the OP.  Counter the points that are made here if you can, thats called a discussion.</p></blockquote><p>Still waiting for someone to counter the points made here.  Unless your not really interested in a discussion involving what the OP posted, and instead are just wanting to troll and make unfounded complaints.</p>

GrignakOw
01-03-2008, 07:52 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I say let the Swashys and Brigands keep their DPS,just remove resists and ill be happy(for pvp of course).And if they dont want to remove resists then i say halve their damage on all the CA's and auto attacks in pvp.</blockquote>If you find you're having problems with rogues, I would suggest asking for advice on your class boards. The class boards of these forums are really a great tool! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>I play my class fine thank you don't really need advice.Point is that when i go to use my daze and stifle and i'm getting nothing but resists when they are doing 1.7k in auto attack dmg it proposes a problem.Also don't come up with the argument that i should use my root i'll stomp that myth now when you use root it breaks after the first hit if the hit even lands.</p><p>And to Bozidar and Kidnie your points mean nothing to me and it should'nt mean much to most of the people in this thread because you guys play in what t3/t4.</p>

Vydar
01-03-2008, 08:34 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't play an assassin anymore in PvP, I play berserker.The "heal" you speak of is very slight and it procs 5x a minute for a max of maybe 1k hp.  No fights last this long.  With haste, let's SAY that the person is using mastercrafted and let's SAY that it actually proc'd and let's SAY that he has a lot of haste and a long delay weapon.  An average fight is 5-10 seconds, so it proc'd what... twice?  Maybe a 500 point heal?  Maybe?  Who doesn't have self heals anymore?Most people melee for 500+ damage.  Scout dps poisons (Caustic in pvp, most dont' use hemo cuz it takes too long to tick) do maybe... 300 in pvp.  If they proc.  The only scouts that habitually use shields tbh are bards, sometimes swashies and rangers, but not typically.  Brigands either use 1h with lunge reversal or dual wield, assassins use dual wield, rangers and swashies usually dual wield.  ONE scout class can run that fast, and that's Rangers.  And that's because everything they do is ranged, so they must be able to get that far out quickly.  The only classes that can spec for tanking are swashies and brigands, and that's because they don't have the burst dps that assassins and rangers get.  They are the tougher, debuffing/tanking scout, while Assassins and Rangers are the DPS scout.  (this is not to say, of course, that swashies and brigands can not dps, since they do it quite well.) I haven't seen a scout with more HP than me yet.  If they do, they had to devote a lot of AA points into it (AssassinsRangers must spend 16 points, Brigands/Swashies must spend more) and have good gear that they earned.  What do scouts sacrifice?They sacrifice the longterm dps that mages get for short term burst dps.  They sacrifice the mitigation/HP of a tank, the heals of a healer, the utility of a support class, for just straight DPS.I assume you play a cloth class, probably a summoner since you seem to know nothing of how mages can fight back.  If you're a summoner, I'm sorry, you're [Removed for Content] either way.  If you're a Coercer/Illy, Wizard/Warlock, there are plenty of ways to win and defeat scouts.  </blockquote><p>Think this post got lost in the laundry list of pointless posts that followed it.  This effectively counters every single complaint the OP had, and yet it got pretty much ignored with the exception of one person complaining about T8 resists, which have nothing to do with the OP.  Counter the points that are made here if you can, thats called a discussion.</p></blockquote><p>Still waiting for someone to counter the points made here.  Unless your not really interested in a discussion involving what the OP posted, and instead are just wanting to troll and make unfounded complaints.</p></blockquote>The problem is, the OP and his supporters don't have raw fact or numbers to back up their beef.They just have "zomg i seem to die to scouts a lot!!111shiftone!!"  Look at the actual mechanics of the actual game.  Study your opponent.  Learn to counter it.  There are many ways. 

Eybietie
01-03-2008, 09:10 PM
<cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>BWLeeEllison wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadow_Viper wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I am not going to fight a swashbuckler anymore, the last fight vs faerie i wasted 2 potions and 2 miracles and it was still impossible to get her down. She resisted 4 spells in a row and due to her weapon she is immune to any snare and root effects. No thanks</p></blockquote><p>Please take a look at this thread.   <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=367158" target="_blank">Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PVP</a></p><p>The class boards are also extremely useful! </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/forums/show.m?forum_id=87" target="_blank">Furies</a></p></blockquote><p><b><span style="font-size: small;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;color: #0099ff;">I seriously doubt many people will click that or even be able to find the pertinant sections due to being busy crying, so I will highlight the parts they need to truly understand 8P</span></b></p><p><i>Editor's Note: The first thing I did before leaving PVE and restarting on Nagafen was sift through the PvP forums.  I remember very clearly one of the stickied posts in the old forums, as it laid out the "feel" of EQ2 PvP very poignantly for me even before I got to the server in the first place.  Sadly, the post was lost when the forums were changed, but today I saw someone who had it archived post it again, and I think it needs to be brought back as a sticky.  I do not remember the name of the original poster, so if someone has that info I'll edit this thread to give them full credit as deserved.  I do remember them only having a handful (5? 8?) total posts and I thought that it was pretty swank to see someone who's not a forum regular express themselves so clearly.  And remember, this was posted a *long* time ago.  In light of the changes in the works for PvP, and the generally escalating whinefests over the last year here, I think this needs to be re-read by all of us, so without further ado:</i><b>-------------------------------------------Disclaimer: </b>This is going to be long, opinionated, and blunt, but I've been reading a few too many threads from people who don't seem to understand what it is that they got themselves into, and are clamoring for SOE to run to the rescue and change everything about the game to suit their particular idea of just what "PvP" is. This is coming from a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, but by no means am I claiming to be an expert on EQ or PvP. I'm just a player who understands what game it is I'm playing.<span style="color: #ff9900;">Now then, who I am: I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek back when it was the only "red" server there was. I played on Tallon Zek when it opened, was a long-time player there during the glory days of large-scale good vs. evil battles, daily raids between Nektulos and West Freeport, and moved on to Sullon Zek when it opened, and played on the good (read: suicidal) team. I was mediocre at best, hardly a feared PKer, but I learned to survive and enjoyed what I played, no matter if I was outmatched or not. I understood what I was playing. Now that EQ2 has opened PvP servers, I couldn't help but join in. But I've noticed that there are large numbers of "bluebies" who came to these servers not understanding the nature of PvP in EQ games. This is evident in the incredible number of threads on this board where people are crying for everything to be changed to support what they thought it is. So let's get this started with the fundamental laws of the jungle</span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #1: <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You are going to die.</span></b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">There's no getting out of it. <span style="font-size: medium;">You did not come here to be safe</span>. You were safe before</span>. Now, those strawberry fields of treasure and experience are crawling with cutthroats who know where you used to go, what you used to do, what you used to seek there, and how to use this knowledge to catch you and inflict death on you. They aren't going to wait for you to get ready. They aren't going to play fair. They aren't going to care if a particular spell or tactic is too devastating if they catch you with it. Your only way around it is to learn them- learn where they are, learn what they're after, learn what they're going to do, and prepare yourself ahead of time. And no matter how well-prepared you are for what's out there- you are still going to die. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">There is no way out of Law #1</span>. Whether it's at the hands of someone at the top of your attack range picking you off just because you're there, whether it's a group of players lower than you who gang up and tear you apart, whether it's an even-con, similar class who just happens to get that last shot in before you, whether it's some punk who sucker-punches you right after a tough fight, or whether it's someone whom you thought had no chance in hell who happens to get lucky, you're going to be killed. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">If this bothers you, you made a mistake</span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #2: This isn't your mother's RPG</b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You can't play the same EQ2 you played when they weren't after you</span>. The gear that was excellent enough to live in because of its effectiveness against the mindless MOBs isn't worth squat- you have to outfit yourself with your most dreaded foes in mind. Resists are king, the stats you used to drool over are just going to have to take the bench. You can't just trot over to your favorite hunting grounds to knock out that writ or exploration quest anymore. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">They know that those spots attract people who still think that they're playing the same game, and they will be waiting for you. (See Law #1) You have to forget everything you learned on the blue servers, and be prepared to learn it all over again.</span> There are new rules for how to get a level. There are new rules for where to hunt, and there are new rules for which routes to take through the lands. If it's something that many people used to do or where many people used to go, it is now bait that will lead many people to their deaths. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">If you thought that you were going to play the same route you played before to get to level 60-whatever except that you can kill people now, <b>you made a mistake</b></span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed</b><span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">All classes have advantages in certain situations. <b><i><u>If you find yourself in one of these situations and you aren't the class in question, see Law #1</u></i></b>. So, such-and-such a class can take you down solo if they get the jump on you, if all they do is X and Y? Well, yes. That's what they do, and you were there. <span style="font-size: medium;">The essence of EQ2 is that all classes have advantages and weaknesses, and <u><b>the way we overcome our weaknesses isn't telling the game developer to take them away, or give you someone else's advantage</b></u></span></span>. The way you overcome these weaknesses is by <b>grouping</b> with someone who can complement them. <span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">You're not here to run around solo and have a fair, balanced even 1v1 match against everyone you meet. <u>That's not PvP, that's <b>dueling</b></u></span></span>. Running around alone isn't something you have the right to do. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: small;">Not all classes were meant to solo in PvE as well as others, <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ffff00;">what makes you think this is any different</span>?</span> </span>And if your class can't do what so-and-so does, they shouldn't. Everyone has "certain classes" who flat-out have them beat. Everyone has classes that can't hold a candle to them. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance</span>. There's more to PvP that who has what nuke or how many hitpoints or what dps rate is. PvP is about knowing <b>everything</b> you can do and how it works, not just what numbers scrolled up when you fought mobs before. If you can't fight them, learn how to. If you can't learn and expect SOE to change everything around to suit you, you made a mistake. Crying that you can't beat X class and they need to be nerfed doesn't mean you're right, it means you're an unskilled player who doesn't understand how to play his class. You also have to understand the other classes and what their weaknesses are. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;"><b>Learn, Adapt, and Grow; if you can't do that then you're not cut out for this</b></span>.<b>Law of the Jungle #4: Success is measured by survival</b><span style="color: #ff0000;">Any idiot can rack up a high number of kills, that doesn't make them skilled. Your skill isn't determined by how many people of what level you can take on. And the little punk who ran away, or zoned, or avoided you altogether, <span style="font-size: small;">he's not a coward, he's <b>smart</b></span></span>. Just because you engage someone doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. You have to <b>earn </b>that kill. If they get away, they survived. <span style="color: #ff0000;">If they fight back too hard and you're outmatched, sticking around and letting them have you isn't brave or honorable, it's <b>stupid.</b> <span style="font-size: small;">Make them earn it</span></span>! If you can get away, you deserved to. If you can't out-damage them because you're in offensive stance and they're in defensive stance, it's not unfair- they're just thinking ahead of you. Don't lower your defenses just because you think that extra bit of dps that you used to get against mobs is going to turn the tide- because you're thinking in terms of a kill you haven't earned yet and not thinking with survival in mind. If all those nasty roots and spells and whatever are eating you up, stock up on items that take care of them: potions, resist gear, etc. If it isn't a piece of gear with surviving an attack in its design, you made a mistake. It takes time, patience, and smarts to figure out all the little tricks, tactics, and items that help you survive in this world. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;"><span style="font-size: large;">It's not about killing- it's about depriving your enemy of the kill</span>. <b>If this isn't your primary thought when planning every last detail your character from skills to selections to gear to hotkeys to camera angle to system options, <u><i>see Law #1</i></u></b>. You aren't a good PvPer because of who you fight and which fights you win, <span style="color: #ff9900;">you are a good PvPer depending on your overall level of preparation and how many times you can count that that preparation saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</span></span><b>Law of the Jungle #5: <span style="font-size: small;color: #cc00ff;">You are never going to be a god</span></b>Too many of you have had that time when you have those cute little adolescent fantasies about being a powerful, unstoppable killing machine with the title of Overlord while wielding the shiniest, largest and most phallic weapon in Norrath and laying out every single foe you happen to encounter through sheer invincibility. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">It ain't gonna happen- ever. (See Law #1)</span> PvP isn't for people who like to play single-player games in godmode, spanky. <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;">You didn't come here to be godlike, you came here to embrace mortality</span><b>. </b>You <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;"><b>aren't just here to kill other players- you came here to give them permission to kill you</b></span>, to utilize advatages over you, to take advantage of your weaknesses, to leave you broken and bleeding while they /dance on your corpse and count their money. <span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;"><b>If you came here planning on becoming the all-powerful king of the hill that no one can topple, you made a mistake</b></span>. Even as the server ages, everyone's going to bunch up in the higher levels and guilds and players are going to be after you more than ever. You will never be safe again.<span style="font-size: x-large;color: #ff0000;"> The safe servers are still where you left them.l</span><b>Law of the Jungle #6: <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">It's still just a game</span></b>Playing on a PvP server doesn't take cojones. It doesn't take an iron will, or an asbestos stomach. It doesn't make you a man. <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">You're still an EQ2 geek just like the rest of us, it's just a lot more difficult</span>. <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;">If it's too hard, too frustrating, too unfair, too immature, too cutthroat, too inconvenient, or if you're just not that good at it or if you think that so-and-so shouldn't be doing such-and-such because it "ruins" your fun, <i><u>then it's not for you</u></i></span>. You're here if you enjoy what you're playing. <span style="color: #ff0000;">If you are here because you <span style="font-size: small;"><u><i>want</i></u></span> to enjoy it</span>, <span style="font-size: small;color: #ff0000;">but you're not, <b>don't expect SOE to get rid of everything you don't like about it</b></span>. <b><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">It is what it is.</span></b> It's MEAN. And if  someone one-shots you, or takes your plat that you were just on your way to bank, or whatever else it may be that spoiled your plans, well, you either suck it up and keep playing or you're on the wrong server. It's only "griefing" if you let it give you grief.<span style="font-size: large;color: #ffff00;"><b> If you can't laugh it off, you're the problem</b></span>. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><b>If you're not having fun, you made a mistake</b></span>. <span style="font-size: small;color: #00ff00;">This ugly duckling isn't going to grow up into a swan, you just have to love it unconditionally and understand that yes, it's always going to look like that</span>. There's no shame in playing on the blue servers if that's more your cup of tea, we're all here to play games, and the game you play isn't a reflection on your status as a human being. But PvP is a different game. If you could go live in a beachhouse with central air and plasma-screen TV's for the same price, why would you move into a shack with no plumbing or power and complain about the leak in the roof? You have to want to live in this shack. Don't expect SOE to turn it into a resort, they've already built those for you.All of these factors lead me to one final point.<span style="font-size: medium;"> Filling up boards with complaints that "X class can do this and I can't and so-and-so ganked me when I was fighting and I was 10 levels lower than him and I can't go anywhere without being bind-camped  and SOE needs to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY" doesn't help anyone- <span style="color: #ff0000;">it only buries legitimate issues like bugs and exploits under mountains of whining by people who can't seem to understand that they are just not that good at the game</span>. There's only one thing that should be on your mind when you think about all the problems with PvP and the PvP servers. </span><span style="font-size: large;color: #ff0000;">The final, and truest Law of the Jungle:</span><b><span style="font-size: xx-large;color: #ff0000;">LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.</span></b></p></blockquote>Thank you.</blockquote>i can´t believe someone wasted hrs of coloring and making the font bigger here and there...amazing how human kind can waste so much time to built complex structured bulwarks of nothingness.

Sunderban
01-03-2008, 11:05 PM
<cite>Zimike wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The problem is people can't get their brains around that there is no real balance in solo pvp, nor should sacrifices/changes be made to strieve for this.  It's a group game.  Come to me with a problem in group pvp and i'll champion that cause with you to get dev attention.</p><p>but "oh no, scouts have so many utilities" -- i read that 2 years ago when the pvp servers came out.  It's nothing new.</p><p> It's shocking that classes who's primary function is being a hunter are good for pvp, right?</p></blockquote>I understand how groups work and I do know some classes fit better in groups, but you can just as easily take these same Scout classes, put them in a group, and still they would be more powerful then the mages. There are balacing issues group or no group. You are thinking from a PVE stand point and need to open your eyes. </blockquote><p>no i think you missed the point. if you want to put a group of friends together to form a rock band would you search for only drummers? no you look for singers, guitarists, keyboardist...whatever.......</p><p>you put a group together that compliments each other....same for pvp groups. sure the reality sometimes is you cant get the perfect group together but when you want to go to a dungeon and raid or whatever you try to find a balance of characters that will help you survive.....whats any different with pvp?</p><p>if you understand how groups work why would you say what you did? you contradict yourself.</p>

Csky
01-04-2008, 01:37 AM
<p>fine..then lessen scouts melee abilities and force them to group to kill anything. .it isnt a 1v1 game eh??</p><p>thats what they seem to think is ok telling visibles</p><p>i play a plate wearing fighter class that has to take anything that comes at me with no escape tools .. if i have to group to kill a scout 1v1 ..ill play another game thanks </p>

Badaxe Ba
01-04-2008, 01:54 AM
<p>Greatest counter to opposing scouts that requires the least amount of effort from a nonscout?</p><p>/invite scout</p>

Bozidar
01-04-2008, 02:57 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And to Bozidar and Kidnie your points mean nothing to me and it should'nt mean much to most of the people in this thread because you guys play in what t3/t4.</p></blockquote><p>What i have to say applies to T2 where you play as well, Efet.</p>

Bozidar
01-04-2008, 02:58 AM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>fine..then lessen scouts melee abilities and force them to group to kill anything. .it isnt a 1v1 game eh??</p><p>thats what they seem to think is ok telling visibles</p><p>i play a plate wearing fighter class that has to take anything that comes at me with no escape tools .. if i have to group to kill a scout 1v1 ..ill play another game thanks </p></blockquote>you're a plate tank.  you have to group to kill anything, because who ever wants to can just walk away from you.  so i guess you'll be moving on now?

frontfendu
01-04-2008, 11:11 AM
<cite>hosuke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Get to use posions that proc far to often that do more damage them most people melee</p><p>Get healing poisions, Oh yes i see, stabing someone would heal you >_></p><p>Get poisions that detaunt(target removing pvp) because it isnt like they get enough class detaunts evades is it..</p><p>Why can they track, and do insane DPS and use shields and Stun lock, and debuff with taunts that have low timer so they can keep removing buffs, why can they debuff so much that it turns plate armor into cloth armor and cloth armor into umm, a naked player.</p><p>Why can they run at near 80% speed, Why can they get away from any pvp fight they chose with out risk, WHy can they spec for tanking and do as well as any tank.</p><p>Why can they get more health then a main tank, Why are they able to kill anyone in 6 sec flat pvp with no effort at all.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;">Why do they get all this and more with no <b>sacrifice at all!!</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other classes sacrifice alot to get gains into what they want to do, Wizard lose tons of damage for defence, guardians los tons of damage for defence, druids cant be both healer and dps, they cant have it both ways, they are pvp spec or raid spec not both, no matter the char you pick you have to SACRIFICE alot.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">SCOUT GET IT ALL WITH NO SACRIFICE AT ALL! how is this fair to the rest of us, why do they get so much with no loss to any thing. the higher tehy get the more overpowered they become, i mean jesus look at them at level 80... its [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Seriously BUff other classes or nerf them but do some thing</span></p></blockquote>loooool just because they are scout.......

Sunderban
01-04-2008, 02:23 PM
<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>fine..then lessen scouts melee abilities and force them to group to kill anything. .it isnt a 1v1 game eh??</p><p>thats what they seem to think is ok telling visibles</p><p>i play a plate wearing fighter class that has to take anything that comes at me with no escape tools .. if i have to group to kill a scout 1v1 ..ill play another game thanks </p></blockquote>so what are you suggesting? should we all be perfectly balanced against each other? every class exactly equal in abilities? you know what we would have? fights that last forever because no one would be capable of killing the other player 1v1 unless there was some sort of imbalance introduced. that is ultimate balance my friend 1v1. you cant have perfect balance.....no one would ever win a fight. you need unbalance. it sucks when your chosen, prefered profession isn't at the top of the food chain i admit. my favorite class sucks at pvp but thats just the way it is....i think its just the way it has to be.