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View Full Version : PvP Ethic and some Advice.


Pravius
12-31-2007, 10:47 AM
Ok so after playing on a PvP server on a swash (yea I know fotm scout) I have had a really good time.  However one thing I would really like to know is the PvP community's view on ethic.This is my policy and want to know what you all think of this.  First off I will kill greens, only because I am a newer player and I need the money and status, now I have a different view on this.  I will only kill the same person one time if I see them again after I kill them I will make sure they can see me and give them a hug.After a good fight I will bow to the player to show my respect.  I think this shows at least something.  The only time I will ever run is if I am being gangbanged by like 2 or more players and know there is no chance what so ever of survival.  This brings up a good point though, I never understood why people run, if you are on a PvP server it's kinda like marriage for better or for worse, why run if you lose a fight fair and square.  It bothers me to no end when an even level players goes toe to toe with me we have a good fight he hurts me I am about to kill him and he runs. This might be a topic that has been covered before but I want to hear some of the other PvP community's views on the ethic and morals you take with you and play with.Thanks <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Edit: I know the last statement is kind of contradicting, about running.  However running with no chance of survival is different than fighting one on one and running.  Just to clear that up because I know someone will say something.

Mwahaha
12-31-2007, 10:58 AM
Well my belief is that they are just making you work extra hard to get that fame/token. 

Pravius
12-31-2007, 11:02 AM
Followup question to your post.  I hear of these tokens... what are they?  I know fame is like status... faction...right?  But what are these tokens?

Psych
12-31-2007, 11:04 AM
The way I play is if I see someone white con or less I attack them immediately. If they are yellow or higher I usually try to avoid them.I'm a paladin not a swashy.If I attack a green con and I see him later and he is still on recent and he is just killing mobs minding his own business its no big deal. But if I kill him and he still has 29 minutes on recent when he walks back up to me and I can tell they are just waiting for an opportunity I will eat his face right there and from that time on every time I see him if possible.The system benefits someone to come back and seek revenge for 30 minutes while they have nothing lose and I have everything to gain. If I can I'll send them to respawn over and over until that 30 minutes is done. I'm not gonna wait for them to attack me while fighting an add and I'm at 60% health with LoH down.Do unto others before they do unto you. Stick to this and you'll be fine. In my experience the idea of being nice to players after slaying them is fine at first and I did use it at first...I would ignore green cons and let them go on about their business. Then they started trying to gang up together and chase after me. This happend once or twice before I said no more. Now I take an active position against any opponent I can attack.Except exiles doing the betrayal quest. Anyone else that I can fight though is in for a fight. If they can catch me fine but I see no reason to jump in against a couple white cons or an orange con just for a fight. It only gives them infamy and puts them closer to getting pvp gear to allow them to kill me more easily next time.Some might say its the honorable thing to do but where is the honor in feeding the enemy?Unless I am grouped. In which case I pride myself on being the first and only member that has to die. I will do everything to make sure my teammates survive and die often and willingly for the cause. As a paladin I consider saving my friends RP priority number one just above smiting evil.So its1. Save Friends2. Smite Evil3. Dont Feed EnemySo if my friends are safe I attack my opponent. If I cant beat them I do my best to make sure they dont get anything from the battle.I will say though here is an interesting trick. Your opponent who is in range joins group with a player 30 levels higher than you just as you attack them. Then the higher level player thumps you a couple times and your out. I think this is pretty poor sport and really just an exploit of sorts with no fix.I can think of any way to make it fair and still keep players from doing this. Its a really cheap trick and just results in an easy, practically grief kill of a deep gray con. Its probably not the easiest trick to pull off, I dunno I havnt done it personally but I had it used on me with perfect timing and it sucks to attack a 25 and get eaten by a 55 and I would say this is much more of a lack of honor than running.Running you do because you cant win. Trying to exploit group mechanics and timing to trick your opponent into attacking you just as you group with a player than can 1-2 shot them only shows a lack of knowledge of the game itself as these things just arent required at all to do well in the game. Running away from a fight you cant win is playing smart.

WasFycksir
12-31-2007, 11:06 AM
<p>Ethics and morals are of no consequence in the game.  No harm is actually done to a person and they voluntarily engage the game.  No harm, no foul.</p><p>I am not saying that the actions you spelled out are not polite and honorable (from a role playing standpoint) because I suppose they are.  But you will find that it's a jungle out there (see the stickies).</p><p>My personal motto was "If it cons, kill it".  Green or not, who cares?</p><p>As far as running from fights go, ugh, there are tons of posts about titles and why people would run, it's the nature of the game.  Plus, think about it, who wants to lose?  If it's obvious the fight is not going your way, escaping is a good idea, isn't it?</p><p>Sometimes people run (keep moving) because they are busy doing other things too.  Like heading for a trade, crafting something for someone, quest turn in, or maybe just logging for the night, it is not always cowardice.  Unless it's a Q, then it's always cowardice <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.</p><p>People can break rules spelled out in the EULA, but that is another subject.</p>

Psych
12-31-2007, 11:17 AM
everyone probably knows the quote"give them nothing but take from them everything"there ya go.kill every green you can and never go running into a fight that just feeds the enemy.as for me being a paladin I also go by never leaving a friend behind. Even if we arent grouped I will always help. Nothing about any part of the game suggests 1vs1 is the way it goes. Infact everything in contrary to that and so I never feel bad about healing a fellow Q mid fight with a freep then jumping in to help. I'd feel bad about not jumping in and maybe allowing the enemy to grow stronger while I stood by and watched my teammate die.I mean ofcourse fellow Q as teammate.3 teamsQ-save allFreep-kill allExile-leave alone if betraying, otherwise see Freep

Armironhead
12-31-2007, 11:25 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It bothers me to no end when an even level players goes toe to toe with me we have a good fight he hurts me I am about to kill him and he runs. </p></blockquote><p>People should just stand around and die for you?  Why shouldn't they make you work for it?  If we are going to have an ethic on a pvp server, at least we should have one that doesnt promote lazyness.  In fact I propose for a pvp ethic that everybody <i><u>must</u></i> run if they preceive they are about to die.  That way a decent work ethic is reinforced on our servers -- no lazyness here.  </p><p>Also you don't say what faction you are, but as far as I'm concerned as an fp aligned toon it is our ethical obligation to kill everything we can -- green, grey, whatever.  Only goodies should refrain from taking on toons of a lesser con lvl.  Also goodies should <i>never strike the first blow.</i> Afterall why pick I good aligned toon if you going to act all evil.  No evil wannabees allowed.</p><p>Seriously though, there should be only one rule on a pvp server and that is no whining -- if you die or if you <i>or</i> fail to make a kill you cant complain about it -- in game or here on the forums.  For instance, yesterday some lvl 80 exile ganks one of my guild mates and I happen to get the jump on him shortly there after.  As I was three lvls lower then the exile I didnt think I would be able to kill him alone and had hoped that my guildmate could rev fast enough to help out.  As it turned out -- the exile runs for some reason or another and I manage to kill him.  Now I figure I just got lucky, but for some reason or other the exile logs on to his fp toon and then sends me tells for the next 10mins complaining that I only killed him because of his computer issues and that I'm a coward unless I duel him.  Now this IMO is a classic violation of the pvp "ethic" -- no whinning.  I can't help his lagging nor do I have any knowledge of it.  Moreover, dueling a character 3 lvls higher/lower is hardly a measure of skill etc...  In fact fair fights and duels do not belong on an open pvp server.  Just take the death and/or kill and move on.  No whinning, no gloating -- just find more pvp.  And that is the only ethic that is important to a pvp server.</p>

Bookbunny
12-31-2007, 11:31 AM
<p>The danger with placing parameters on your pvp engagement is that only you will be abiding by them.  My hubby and I came from blue server on EQ1 and were in a very honorable and noble guild.... Sirs and M'am and no bad language and help others until your fingers bleed kind of activity.  When we came to pvp we wanted to maintain that sense of honor so we decided we would not grief.... only attack if the freeps were done with their mob fight, don't attack recents unless they engage you first, stand immune on your revive spot if the fight is taking place 10 feet away.  For the most part we still follow this basic politeness.  Over the course of our time in Norrath and the treatment we have received from our enemies I must say a lot of our rules go out the window.  There are certain guilds that we will fight under any circumstance because in the past we have been ganked, griefed and zerged by them.    And after fights with specific players I no longer /bow, now I blow a firework in their face and dance a jig.</p><p>You can certainly hold yourself up to higher standards in the ethics of pvp, but don't think for a minute that your enemies will respect them.  And don't no freeps go flaming me... I am sure you deal with less-than-moral Qs but I don't fight them so I can't speak to that, other than the 30 kills my little arasai got while earning kelethin citizenship (ouchies).</p><p> The key is to play the way you enjoy playing and let other attitudes effect you as little as possible.  Have fun!</p><p>**Edit:  I forgot to comment on the running.  I view PVP win/loss like this:  If they kill me, I lose.  If I kill them, I win.  If I get away, I win.  If I make them run away, I win.  LOL so you see there are a lot more ways for me to win than lose!  Not everything depends on your kill counter.</p>

Spyderbite
12-31-2007, 11:55 AM
I am always respectful after a fight. As a result, I've made some pretty good friends outside the game via the forums and such.I don't run, ever. Mainly cause most of the time its absolutely futile to run. Roots, faster mount, ranged weapons, etc. If I'm already losing a fight anyways, my odds of getting away are slim to none anyways. So, I stand and fight till my last breath (power point) and hope he/she runs out of power or something. Its a brave vs. stupid trade off that I can live with. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ethics are an option. You will fight many people who will /bow and such for you after a fight. But, you will also run in to just as many who have their teabag and corpse hump macros all qued up for when you drop.I think best display of respectful ethics shown on the PvP servers was during the tournaments held in BBM this past fall. Dozens from all three sides gathered on the docks cheering on their faction as they battled each other in duels outside the immunity area. With the exception of a few title [Removed for Content] who snuck in to get cheap shots at the competetors, everyone was respectful of the tournament rules and had a great time.In a nutshell.. there are some real idiots out there as is to be expected. However, those of us who realize that everyone is part of the same community far outnumber the dolts. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Pravius
12-31-2007, 12:52 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It bothers me to no end when an even level players goes toe to toe with me we have a good fight he hurts me I am about to kill him and he runs. </p></blockquote><p>People should just stand around and die for you?  Why shouldn't they make you work for it?  If we are going to have an ethic on a pvp server, at least we should have one that doesnt promote lazyness.  In fact I propose for a pvp ethic that everybody <i><u>must</u></i> run if they preceive they are about to die.  That way a decent work ethic is reinforced on our servers -- no lazyness here.  </p><p>Also you don't say what faction you are, but as far as I'm concerned as an fp aligned toon it is our ethical obligation to kill everything we can -- green, grey, whatever.  Only goodies should refrain from taking on toons of a lesser con lvl.  Also goodies should <i>never strike the first blow.</i> Afterall why pick I good aligned toon if you going to act all evil.  No evil wannabees allowed.</p><p>Seriously though, there should be only one rule on a pvp server and that is no whining -- if you die or if you <i>or</i> fail to make a kill you cant complain about it -- in game or here on the forums.  For instance, yesterday some lvl 80 exile ganks one of my guild mates and I happen to get the jump on him shortly there after.  As I was three lvls lower then the exile I didnt think I would be able to kill him alone and had hoped that my guildmate could rev fast enough to help out.  As it turned out -- the exile runs for some reason or another and I manage to kill him.  Now I figure I just got lucky, but for some reason or other the exile logs on to his fp toon and then sends me tells for the next 10mins complaining that I only killed him because of his computer issues and that I'm a coward unless I duel him.  Now this IMO is a classic violation of the pvp "ethic" -- no whinning.  I can't help his lagging nor do I have any knowledge of it.  Moreover, dueling a character 3 lvls higher/lower is hardly a measure of skill etc...  In fact fair fights and duels do not belong on an open pvp server.  Just take the death and/or kill and move on.  No whinning, no gloating -- just find more pvp.  And that is the only ethic that is important to a pvp server.</p></blockquote>Holy cow simmer down! LOL.That statement in no way had anything thing to do with what you said.  Instead of flaming me for your own perception of how you think I feel please try to refrain.This is a mechanics thing, personally I think the lower the health of the player SoE sould implement some sort of speed debuff.  For example if you are at 10% health and I am at 60% my run speed should be like way faster than yours.  The more health you lose the slower you run.  Alot like weight.  If you are carrying alot you run slower, why not have it like that?I am not whining believe me.  I have played a ton of mmo's normally always on PvP.  I don't whine.  I try to improve mechanics and this post was merely a call out to the pvp community so that I could see other peoples views on this and personally do not think deserved your post.

Bloodfa
12-31-2007, 01:24 PM
<p>  If it's viable, kill it.  Yellow counts as a 2-to-1 advantage over you, bust him up if you can.  Green is still a legitimate kill, go for it, as it's a dog-eat-dog world.  Killing the same green over and over, that's griefing.  And no, if you abstain from the kill but your groupmates grief, you aren't griefing.  Likewise, having the same person attack you over and over, lose every time, and then log an alt to cry about "griefing", tell them to pick a different respawn, stop attacking you, or to quit crying because they're an idiot, and add them to Ignore.</p><p>  Good should never take the first shot?  Riiiiight, that Coercer sitting just inside casting range is just swatting flies around his head, I'm sure he's not about to lock you down so his pet can take a healthy bite outta your [Removed for Content].</p><p>  Running isn't just an exercise, it can be an adventure.  Make them earn it.  Seeing a bunch bearing down on you and just doing a /sit makes it easier for them to farm you; head towards friendlies or NPC's that will possibly kill one of them for you.  Payback's a *****.</p><p>  /bow to the guy that has the skill to take out you and your friends if you have the obvious advantage.  Same to those that keep coming back for more even after you've won over them four times as many they've won, and nobody has anything to win or lose at that point.  </p><p>Just a couple of thoughts on the subject.</p>

Armironhead
12-31-2007, 01:44 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It bothers me to no end when an even level players goes toe to toe with me we have a good fight he hurts me I am about to kill him and he runs. </p></blockquote><p>People should just stand around and die for you?  Why shouldn't they make you work for it?  If we are going to have an ethic on a pvp server, at least we should have one that doesnt promote lazyness.  In fact I propose for a pvp ethic that everybody <i><u>must</u></i> run if they preceive they are about to die.  That way a decent work ethic is reinforced on our servers -- no lazyness here.  </p><p>Also you don't say what faction you are, but as far as I'm concerned as an fp aligned toon it is our ethical obligation to kill everything we can -- green, grey, whatever.  Only goodies should refrain from taking on toons of a lesser con lvl.  Also goodies should <i>never strike the first blow.</i> Afterall why pick I good aligned toon if you going to act all evil.  No evil wannabees allowed.</p><p>Seriously though, there should be only one rule on a pvp server and that is no whining -- if you die or if you <i>or</i> fail to make a kill you cant complain about it -- in game or here on the forums.  For instance, yesterday some lvl 80 exile ganks one of my guild mates and I happen to get the jump on him shortly there after.  As I was three lvls lower then the exile I didnt think I would be able to kill him alone and had hoped that my guildmate could rev fast enough to help out.  As it turned out -- the exile runs for some reason or another and I manage to kill him.  Now I figure I just got lucky, but for some reason or other the exile logs on to his fp toon and then sends me tells for the next 10mins complaining that I only killed him because of his computer issues and that I'm a coward unless I duel him.  Now this IMO is a classic violation of the pvp "ethic" -- no whinning.  I can't help his lagging nor do I have any knowledge of it.  Moreover, dueling a character 3 lvls higher/lower is hardly a measure of skill etc...  In fact fair fights and duels do not belong on an open pvp server.  Just take the death and/or kill and move on.  No whinning, no gloating -- just find more pvp.  And that is the only ethic that is important to a pvp server.</p></blockquote>Holy cow simmer down! LOL.That statement in no way had anything thing to do with what you said.  Instead of flaming me for your own perception of how you think I feel please try to refrain.This is a mechanics thing, personally I think the lower the health of the player SoE sould implement some sort of speed debuff.  For example if you are at 10% health and I am at 60% my run speed should be like way faster than yours.  The more health you lose the slower you run.  Alot like weight.  If you are carrying alot you run slower, why not have it like that?I am not whining believe me.  I have played a ton of mmo's normally always on PvP.  I don't whine.  I try to improve mechanics and this post was merely a call out to the pvp community so that I could see other peoples views on this and personally do not think deserved your post.</blockquote>It was hardly a "flame" although it was certainly tounge in cheek.  But I will point out that your op was all about ethics not mechanics -- which are entirely different issues.  Gimping run speed to reflect damage is hardly an ethical problem.  Regardless, while it sounds superficially like a good idea I suspect its unnecessary as there are already many roots/snares to slow and stop runners.  Moreover, running in-combat is generally not what people complain about when they talk about runners -- Rather its runners who avoid combat b4 it as even begun.

HerbertWalker
12-31-2007, 04:26 PM
<p>Killing the same green over and over is not necessarily griefing.   It depends on the intent of the attacker.   If his sole intent is to spoil your fun, then it is griefing.   If his intent includes other goals, such as zone control, or preventing the victim from becoming stronger, then it cannot be considered griefing.   It is considered to be "fighting the war."</p><p>This is a role playing game where I am playing the role of a Qeynosian who wants to eradicate the entire city of Freeport.   My in-game actions are indicative of this goal.   If you consider my zone control goals to be griefing, then I would consider your opinion to be very much against the spirit of the War we are fighting.</p><p>But actually, you probably are not fighting the War at all.   Many people will only fight if there is a tangible benefit to be gained.   This can easily be supported by the number of posters here who will only attack if you are off the /recent list.   This is a very two-faced stance to take.    You claim ethics as your reasoning, but in reality if awards were granted for it, you would repeat kill.</p><p>The difference with me is that I will repeat kill greens just to push them out of a zone that I want to attempt to control.   This inevitably leads to larger scale or higher difficulty battles, and me getting pushed out of the same zone.   This is what I consider fun and why I play - not for titles and tokens, like many of you obviously do.</p>

Bloodfa
12-31-2007, 04:50 PM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Killing the same green over and over is not necessarily griefing.   It depends on the intent of the attacker.   If his sole intent is to spoil your fun, then it is griefing.   If his intent includes other goals, such as zone control, or preventing the victim from becoming stronger, then it cannot be considered griefing.   It is considered to be "fighting the war."</p><p>This is a role playing game where I am playing the role of a Qeynosian who wants to eradicate the entire city of Freeport.   My in-game actions are indicative of this goal.   If you consider my zone control goals to be griefing, then I would consider your opinion to be very much against the spirit of the War we are fighting.</p><p>But actually, you probably are not fighting the War at all.   Many people will only fight if there is a tangible benefit to be gained.   This can easily be supported by the number of posters here who will only attack if you are off the /recent list.   This is a very two-faced stance to take.    You claim ethics as your reasoning, but in reality if awards were granted for it, you would repeat kill.</p><p>The difference with me is that I will repeat kill greens just to push them out of a zone that I want to attempt to control.   This inevitably leads to larger scale or higher difficulty battles, and me getting pushed out of the same zone.   This is what I consider fun and why I play - not for titles and tokens, like many of you obviously do.</p></blockquote><p>Hmmm, it seems to me as the green comment is directed at me and my statement about greenies being killed over & over.  I don't do it because I'm <i>not</i> here to make somebody's evening miserable, just difficult.  Attacking a General isn't going to give me any tangible reward, yet I'll do it.  I don't check the recent list very often; with only 140 tokens I'm a ways off from getting gear.  I also <i>don't</i> want to push the enemy completely out from a zone; who the hell are you going to fight then?  If you've hit T8, you know what happens when you dominate a zone.  The enemy leaves it.  Or they come back with a full raid of their Alpha players and send you and yours packing; I don't care how good your group is, when half of them are 68-72 and taking on superior odds that are all 80, you're going to wipe fast & hard.  No amount of "Hey, we need help in Kylong Plains against a full raid of DH/Pie/Onyx" is going to get you the numbers you need to take it back, as many will just go to the other zones.  </p><p>Me, personally, I'll take a fight with no fame for me to gain.  And if they are willing to come back over and over, I'll keep at it, as that's what I'm here for.  Fighting and fun.  If you want to justify killing someone several levels below you, with absolutely no chance of a victory over and over again, have fun.  I won't.  I didn't do it in my lower tiers (see my opinion on level locking threads), I'm certainly am not going to do it now.  Unless it's somebody in Kelethin working on the Dwarven Tunic HQ; then I'll punt them over the edge once just for sh!ts & giggles.  Been killed while carnage flagged for it more than once, too, but hey, it's the price you pay for having fun at somebody else's expense.  </p><p>Now, if I've misread your comment, please accept my apologies.</p>

HerbertWalker
12-31-2007, 05:09 PM
<p>My post was directed at anyone who refuses to kill the enemy for any reason, who claims <u>ethics</u> as their reasoning.   You don't claim ethics, you claim personal survival (preventing retaliation) as your reasoning for letting someone live and prosper in your midst.   Now that is smart and definately within the spirit of winning the War.</p><p>But over and over here on these forums, we see some "ethical" people saying how they won't kill you if you are on their /recent list.   That is utter BS, and yet they don't even realize it is BS.   They haven't even thought about it from the perspective I explained above.</p>

Bloodfa
12-31-2007, 05:15 PM
Ah, gotcha.  Again, my apologies for the misinterpretation.

HerbertWalker
01-01-2008, 02:28 PM
<p>No prob at all, and it seems that our last few posts really shut this thread down, because if they read it these players are now realizing that they indeed are title [Removed for Content] by definition.   When I am grouped with these folks, it is quite apparent to me that they intend to gank every 30 minutes for fame and reward.   Yet they try to turn this against me, as if I am the unethical one, when I suggest and act on it, slaughtering everyone repeatedly in order to control the area and force a larger battle.</p><p>It is certainly a player's choice to do as he wishes, but just realize that when you come back every 30 minutes for your next gank.... that <u>you</u> may be the one with an ethical isue to address.</p>