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Darman81
12-18-2007, 12:42 PM
<p>Just another observation!</p><p>What happened to the days when you knew someones got your back?</p><p>Sounds confusing huh!</p><p>Those of you who are just standing there watching people of your faction die because you dont want the xp please stop!</p><p>I have been noticing my own faction watching me die because the person or group  attacking me doesnt have a title!</p><p>Cmon even if im not in your group you can atleast throw me a bone!</p><p>Who else remembers when you could attack people and know your boys got your back, grouped or not!</p><p>Sorry for the rant but I have been noticing this in Frostfell on Nagafen quite often!</p><p>By the way, I think a permanent small pvp zone like frostfell would be a blast!</p><p>It is my first stop everyday when I log in!</p><p> I dont care how high they are, if they are attacking you Ive got your back!</p><p> So If any of you Q's see some idiot 30 levels below you attacking, its probably me! </p><p>LOL!</p>

Bloodfa
12-18-2007, 12:47 PM
Good Samaritan laws unfortunately don't apply in Norath.  Maybe it's time to keep a lowbie freep on the side, just to engage and attack the guard, giving those slackers a "you're gonna get it if  you stand by and watch" hit.  Sad ...

Wytie
12-18-2007, 12:58 PM
<p>They could have been on recent....</p><p>There sometimes is no reason to engage someone you have just gotten fame, faction, ect.. from.</p><p>You need to look at all the possiablitys of the situation on hand. If im solo and just killed someone why should i re engage and put myself at risk of his help showing up unexpected.</p><p>Beleive it or not most people dont like to grief i dont, why? Cause i want that person to sticvk around for another 30min why grief them away that doesnt help me at all, unless they keep trying to kill me thats another story. </p><p>I personaly like to help (leech) when someone is already engaged but if there on my recent list 9 times outa 10 no.</p><p>So in conclusion i would just like to say there may be a good reson why you didnt get the help you expected, many people play for alot of different reasons than we do, so ya just never know....</p>

Bloodfa
12-18-2007, 01:08 PM
/recent or not, standing by and letting someone on your side die while doing nothing should be considered unacceptable behavior.  Personal opinion, of course.

DobriyStefan
12-18-2007, 01:13 PM
<p>I got all the way to the bottom of the OP's post before I realized he was a FREEP!</p><p>I thought everyone complained about Qeynos, first time I saw a Freep complain about their side being disorganized, selfish, or unwilling to take a hit for their neighbor.</p><p>  The way you're talking, maybe you're a traitor to the overlord or something.  Well, if you prefer dying for your neighbor, theres room for you in Qeynos.  If you prefer stopping the griefers before you HAVE to die, you definitely belong here.  As for "but Qeynos has just as bad griefers/tea baggers/rude little insects as we do"...</p><p>thats easy.  These cretins have two sets of uniforms, one set of behavoirs.</p><p>   LoL</p>

Psych
12-18-2007, 01:17 PM
totally agree hereThe pvp isnt free for all, its alignment based!Sure maybe theyre on your recent list but they are attacking a possible ally that might save you at some point in time! Whats better, making sure you dont scare off someone before 30 minutes passes and you get to waste them again or making an ally who might see you losing a fight someday and jump in?In my opinion its the ally. I help anyone on my alignment to the degree I've accidentally interrupted duels.Ofcourse I play the RP PVP server so I consider it a part of my roleplaying to help defend our citizens against the enemy if possible.I dont really play for status or title stuff. The fun I get out of pvp is just the fighting and the element of danger and surprise so I dont mind killing a green con guy 112 times if he attacks me or a fellow citizen 112 times.Also, if I kill a guy and he comes back to attack me I usually consider him KOS because I know if he came back once it means enough to come back twice and he could get lucky maybe catch me in a close PVE fight so I make sure I send him running.I dont grief or kill just to kill but I dont let attacking me or my fellow citizens slide.I mean...its not PVP every 30 mins...its PVP...and I dont care about the exp gain I mean thats a bonus...I take 1 minute to kill a player and make exp like 15 minutes of questing! W00Tedited for typos lots of'em

Darman81
12-18-2007, 01:36 PM
<p>If its a relatively fair fight I could see just standing there!</p><p>For me its different!</p><p>THis is only my opinion!</p><p>If Bob just zoned in and gets Pounced on by two or more and is clearly outnumbered and at a dissadvantage I will allways lend a helping hand even if the players attacking are on my recent!</p><p>I dont consider that griefing, I consider it teamwork!</p><p>And yes even the evil freeps have a sense of pride!</p><p>Though I may not help much, I will gladly die trying!</p><p>Someday the favor may be returned! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

Tamar
12-18-2007, 02:17 PM
I still remember ages ago, when PvP near the Antonica gates and griffin towers was intense and non-stop.We had a rag tag defense group put together and were killing Freeps near the SQ Griff and between the gates.  I run full steam into a group of Freeps dropping my group taunt and temp buffs (Guardian), and the Ranger in our group starts throwing a tantrum about us "griefing" as they were on our recent.  He could offer me no reason, other than the recent list, why we shouldn't kill enemies who were right outside our gates killing our lowbies.First off, I am in full disagreement that it is possible to "grief" someone on your "home field".  If Freeps are in Antonica, they are there to kill Qs.  If I am a Q, I am going to try and stop them, recent list or not.  I never even once look at a recent list.  To me that list is probably one of the main reasons people run and won't fight.  Because they have "nothing to gain".  To me that says a lot about how stupid of a mechanic it is.This is a PvP server, and even more so it is a faction based PvP game.  I'm sure it wouldn't matter much to someone who would let someone of their faction die right next to them without assisting in any way, but I for one keep a list.  I would do nothing to help you in the future if you were to do that kind of lame selfish behavior to me.  Call me petty and call it stupid, but from that point on I would give you no aid of any kind, and I mean nothing.  And I would be more than happy to /laugh at you and tell you why.

Spag
12-18-2007, 02:25 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>/recent or not, standing by and letting someone on your side die while doing nothing should be considered unacceptable behavior.  Personal opinion, of course.</blockquote><p>In theory fine, until the person you tried helping out starts yelling at you for leeching, breaking their mezz, fear, root, or what not.  Even when you think you are helping out, they think the worst of your intentions.  So while you find it unacceptable that they dont engage, others find it unacceptable for them to engage.</p><p>I have often resorted to sending them a tell asking if they would like my assistance.  Sad but true.</p>

arrowoffate
12-18-2007, 02:39 PM
one on one i never get involved thats just my standers, freep or Q side my mystic/defiler  never jump in in a one on one but if i see you are out numbers   thats when i jump in. Recent or not 2 or more on 1 that invitation to jump in.

Bloodfa
12-18-2007, 02:41 PM
<cite>Spag wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>/recent or not, standing by and letting someone on your side die while doing nothing should be considered unacceptable behavior.  Personal opinion, of course.</blockquote><p>In theory fine, until the person you tried helping out starts yelling at you for leeching, breaking their mezz, fear, root, or what not.  Even when you think you are helping out, they think the worst of your intentions.  So while you find it unacceptable that they dont engage, others find it unacceptable for them to engage.</p><p>I have often resorted to sending them a tell asking if they would like my assistance.  Sad but true.</p></blockquote>Sadly, the scenario that you described has happened. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I recall one 70 crying out zonewide that our guild was full of leechers when I stepped in to keep him from getting his digital [Removed for Content] handed to him.  Our entire group stood by and watched him die a few times after that due to his insistance that he could handle himself.  But that would be the exception, rather than the norm.  At least in my experience, although I may just have been lucky on the average. 

Wytie
12-18-2007, 05:09 PM
<cite>Spag wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>/recent or not, standing by and letting someone on your side die while doing nothing should be considered unacceptable behavior.  Personal opinion, of course.</blockquote><p>In theory fine, until the person you tried helping out starts yelling at you for leeching, breaking their mezz, fear, root, or what not.  Even when you think you are helping out, they think the worst of your intentions.  So while you find it unacceptable that they dont engage, others find it unacceptable for them to engage.</p><p>I have often resorted to sending them a tell asking if they would like my assistance.  Sad but true.</p></blockquote><p>You pointed out the best of all points, everything is variable and relative. It depends on the situation at hand. It is each persons right to choose however they like. Sometimes we will agree sometimes you wont dont take it personal its only a game.</p>

Darman81
12-18-2007, 07:07 PM
<p>Some very interesting points were brought up!</p><p>Never had anyone say I was leeching but I could see how they would think that!</p><p>Im just trying to have fun and help a little!</p><p>The whole point of the thread was really about the recent update and the xp issue causing people to avoid helping all together!</p><p>Thanks for your thoughts I will try not to be so offended when they just stand there!</p><p>Maybe they have a good reason!</p><p>Happy Hunting!</p>

Wytie
12-18-2007, 07:17 PM
<cite>Darman81 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Some very interesting points were brought up!</p><p>Never had anyone say I was leeching but I could see how they would think that!</p><p>Im just trying to have fun and help a little!</p><p>The whole point of the thread was really about the recent update and the xp issue causing people to avoid helping all together!</p><p>Thanks for your thoughts I will try not to be so offended when they just stand there!</p><p>Maybe they have a good reason!</p><p>Happy Hunting!</p></blockquote>There ya go bud, keep an open mind about it and stay owning faces.

Winter12345
12-18-2007, 10:02 PM
<p>Actually it's not teamwork.. it is zerging, sure it may be on your side but to them it would be zerging as for you the same if you were soloing someone and 5 qs came along and started to help and kill you.</p><p>Thats imo =)</p>

convict
12-18-2007, 10:07 PM
Kill 'em all.. It's pvp.. If people dont want help, they can set up thier own little duel. If I see someone on my side getting attacked, Im going in... I dont care what's going on, or what level it is, Im gonna throw something at somebody, resist, miss or not..I've died alot helping people.. If I can toss a stun, interupt, anything that can help, Im gonna do it. Does'nt matter if thier red or not..but then again, I could care less about titles or kvd ratio, which I think is the biggest reason people will stand by or run the other way.

mtwideen
12-19-2007, 05:09 AM
I totally agree that someone should step in. Helping out someone of your own alignment is in NO way griefing. You are helping, just because you have nothing to gain doesn't mean there is no point in fighting... the point is to help your fellow Q, or Freep or whatever. If I am fighting a freep and another one runs by, I'm not angry if he attacks me, I expect it, if anything I am angry at myself for letting myself get into a fight while another freep is so close.I think the biggest problem is, lots of people stand there, because if u are fighting someone and get them below 50% health, then if they attack, the person will be put on recent, but they won't get any fame/tokens out of it, so they wait for you to die, and then wait for the person to get above 50% then attack... Lots of people do that, and I think it is kinda stupid, but what are u gonna do, that is how life works, what is best for you, and that is exactly why I only group PVP with people I know, cause even in a group, people think that way.

Yonaton
12-19-2007, 08:33 AM
to the OP: I don't know which server you're on man,and I'm sorry you're having trouble with help. If it's Vox I'm doubly sorry. Myself,I've taken to just dying. My toons were never aa intensive to begin with. No uber twink in the lot. I can't afford to gain the lvls atm,honestly. I finally reached the 1.5 times on one of my toons tonight,and just felt heavy to know it's still an uphill slog. I wish you luck man. Maybe others there with their situation better in hand can help you,on your server.

Kulharr
12-19-2007, 02:31 PM
Heh, I don't even defend myself anymore cause I don't wanna gain combat xp, why would I defend a stranger when I don't defend myself?

Badaxe Ba
12-19-2007, 02:44 PM
<p>in the good ole days before fame......</p><p>its not zerging when your revive spot is being camped, hehe!</p>

FinalOrder
12-19-2007, 03:48 PM
<p>The meanings of greifing, zerging, and leeching have become watered down in the past few years of MMORGS. This is because there are players that do that, and that ruins the meaning for everyone else. Kind of like how some nerfs happen. When you are tracking another player, killing them, and tracking them again, without any worry because you know you can win all the time, and they havent done anything bad (to a point) to get griefed, that is griefing. </p><p>But, when someone is griefing a lower level ally of yours, tea bagging, ect ect.. then griefing that player is called vengeance. There is a difference, and the difference is in the meaning of your actions.</p><p>When your spawn point is being camped, zerging isnt really zerging, its defending your position on the battlefield, for not only yourself, but your fellow allys. When you travel halfway across a zone, to constantly attack a group, or if a group allows you to pass, but you still attack them, die, and do it again, that is zerging.</p><p>Leeching is harder to describe, because someone could leech, but claim it to be "helping out". In one battle, assisting your ally's is not considered a leech. It is an assist. But following them around, and leeching their kills.. that is what a leech was once defined as, and should be still. </p><p>When I am playing, any freeport on home territory is fair game to a point. If I see them, I will kill them. I will then move on, and if I see them again per chance, no matter if 30 minutes have passed, I will kill them again. I will not track them down though, unless they are attacking or disrupting my allys. In that case, I will ask for their location, and attack them back. That is teamwork and helping your fellow players, not griefing (or zerging if you are the one who is constantly dieing).</p><p> Anyone that says that it IS griefing no matter what until their 30 minute timer is up, is lying to themselves and others, and only do that because they dont want to risk themselves needlessly, or miss a chance, for fame & faction. Others will outright admit that, but the bottom line is that it is NOT griefing if you kill someone 3 times in a 5 minute period IF your actions have a moral meaning (you are attacked, ally is attacked, you happen across that player, and other similiar scenario's)</p><p>I have been in the situation where I helped someone kill an enemy, and I have been called a leecher, and they were [Removed for Content] of at me. I just send them a nice reply "Your welcome", and /smile and /wave then go about my business. I dont feel the need to defend myself anymore at that point, in tells or across the channels if they so choose to bring it up, and my actions were justified, and if they think otherwise, that is their loss. Argueing, in my mind, only brings suspicion to  yourself.</p><p>Just my 2 cents,</p><p>RottkNagafen</p>

Spyderbite
12-19-2007, 04:37 PM
I always lend a hand when I see somebody of the same faction in a fight regardless of the level difference. You never know when that one hit or ca might make all the difference in turning the fight around. Usually its suicide but at least I gave it a try. And, should I be in the same situation in the future, that same person may choose to return the favor.I don't believe in burning bridges. Just building new ones.

MuliganVanJurai
12-19-2007, 05:17 PM
<p>OMG... I think i'm going to faint... does somebody actually get it?</p><p>I never did understand why Qeynos wasn't more territorial or team oriented.  I loved in KoS when FP wanted to level their guys up, they would lock down a zone and even a dungeon.  They killed anyone and everyone, helped anyone and everyone because it was their day to level and get the loot.  They Qeynos answer was, let's all just go hide in instances to catch up and then we'll come out to play.</p><p>I feel sometime like Q's only get was FP allows them to get.  I have to say however, in RoK we have done much better.  Though groups (duo's to full) have been left high and dry sometime, I have been helped much more and people have been willing to kill much more than times before.</p><p>It IS a PvP server, we ARE a team (side) fighting against another team (side).  If people are camping sokokar posts in Fens, say 2 -3 groups of Onyx, I Like Pie, Church of Steel, whatever, and it's messing up a bunch of your comrades, drop your quest grinding in Kunzar and go wipe people out.  We should be looking for PvP on a PvP server.  </p><p> There would be far less ganking in the Q world if FP / Exile actually had somewhat of a fear that another group help someone.  My friends and I, always try to help someone even if it looks relatively hopeless.  I understand avoiding 2 peeps against a 4x, hopefully they can evac but, everyone by now can use proper judgement.   </p><p> I'm really not trying to say that no one helps each other but, it really does appear to be a different mindset between Q's and FP.  I can gladly say it has drastically gotten better over the passed two expansions.</p>