Rangers - State of the Class [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Hexus

12-05-2007, 09:58 PM

***********DISCLAIMER**************Before you read any further, know that this thread is specifically aimed at Rangers, WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING ANY OTHER CLASS BUT RANGERS.We are also NOT Discussing PVP, a Vast Majority of the Rangers at Large are PVE Rangers, so we are speaking for them here. A Majority of Rangers (PVP and PVE Rangers) believe that PVP and PVE should be seperated entirely, as they have resounding effects on each other, but the problems of a few rangers on PVP is greatly effecting the raid justifiability of many of the PVE Rangers.***********END DISCLAIMER***********For any Developers that read here, here is a summary of what we feel is wrong with the ranger class, our observations, and our thoughts. This is a Compilation of many observations and statements of the Ranger community and not a rant but a general synopsis of the things we feel need addressed.Statement: Rangers are supposed to be RANGE DPS. We have a total of 6 Melee Abilities that we can use other than Ranged attack and the majority (85%) of our AA lines are geared towards ranged combat.FIRST ISSUE: Bow/Arrow mechanics.As it stands right now, an arrow has to be the exact same level as a bow to be able to do 100% of it's possible damage. The reasoning for this was originally so each tier of tradeskilling would be needed with each tier of levels people went through. (I.E. you could not use level 10 arrows and effectively get the same amount of damage as level 40 arrows in auto attack. The Ranged Ability damage for our skills are set in stone, and the only thing that really effects those are skills which Add to Combat Art Damage and Critical Hits.)In practice and implementation this was a fair and novel idea for players and tradeskillers alike. Somewhere along the line someone stopped following up and let this problem get out of hand. Rangers are the only class that relies on their Bow for 80%+ of their DPS, so of course failing to follow up on this would immediately effect the Ranger more than any other class.As it stands right now, the only way for a Ranger to get the damage their bow says they should be getting is to use an Arrow that is Exactly the Same Level as the bow. Mechanics-wise right now, it is more efficient and more damaging for a ranger to use a Tier 7 Fabled Bow with Tier 7 Ammunition than to even worry about upgrading to a Tier 8 Bow. Level 80 Woodworkers can only make level 67 Arrows, so there is not even an option of Tier 8 Ammunition to go with the bow. The Cart has been put before the Horse.Current Example of Tier 7 Raid Fabled Bow versus Tier 8 Raid Fabled Bow:Examples using /weapon command:No Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 805-3218Dragonhawk 841-3363As it should be, the Dragonhawk is a Tier 8 Fabled Bow and should be rated higher for perspective damage.Deathtoll summoned Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 869-3093Dragonhawk 784-2753The arrow mechanics come into play. Remember this is a raid-week lockout zone and a rather rare drop to get this ammunition in the first place.Crafted lvl 67 bodkin Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 892-3116Dragonhawk 807-2776This is the best Player-Crafted ammunition one can buy, level 67, and because of the mechanics you can get more damage with it from the Tier 7 Fabled Bow.Basically you downgrade your damage by getting the New Higher Damage Rating Bow because of the spread between Ammunition Level and Bow Level.SECOND ISSUE: Spells and Items that fail to acknowledge the Ranger ClassI understand that Rangers are only 1 of the 6 scout archetype classes, but we are also the ONLY one (Once Again) who uses our BOW for 80%+ of our DPS and continues to be ignored when designing spells. Range and Melee should fall under the same buffs, however they do not.The List of Offending spells:Dirge: Cacaphony of Blades and Upgrades: The haste does stick to rangers, however there are no other benefits. This would be less DPS for a ranger than any other melee scout because our weapon delay is 9.0 while most other scouts use 4.0 and less delay weapons - We still get no benefit other than haste.Fury: Agitate: Does not work with ranged.Fae Fires: Does not work with ranged.Templar:Glory of Battle: Does not work with ranged.Holy Redoubt: Does not give ranged benefit.Sorceror:Phoenixblade and other damage spells: 0 Ranged Benefit.Guardian: Call to Siege: Does not give any ranged benefit.Items that do not give any beneficial effect when used with Ranged Attack are too many to list, and the ones that do are: Maestro's Flame (Contested x2 Epic Mob)Buckler of the Howler (5 Day Lockout Instanced x4 Epic Mob)We are starting to see the set class armor (Tier 8 Fabled) give +Ranged Double Attack and + Ranged Crit, this is a step in the right direction and for that we are thankful.Epic Quests for Ranger: 4 Epic Quest Lines, none of them useful for Ranged attack, and the one that was useful for Ranged attack was changed due to a "bug."Imbued Rings: Strength ring not working at all with Ranged.Coif of the Reet Knight: Not working at all with Ranged.I would complain more about Tier 7 Itemization however we are no longer in Tier 7 so I feel it is not a valid complaint. Thank you to the developers again who have listened and (it looks like beginning) to see what we were talking about with + ranged crit and + ranged double attack chance on items with + melee Crit and + melee double attack chance.THIRD ISSUE: Raid Usefulness Because of these changes, rangers have become less useful than the other scout classes in raids. We offer nothing to the rest of the raid except some out of combat movement speed, which has no practical application in any raid setting. We offer no beneficial reason to be in a raid other than our damage and the fact that it is from range.Because of Bow/Arrow Mechanics we have less damage than other classes and combined with the lack of beneficial buffs which do not effect ranged dps Tier 8 has shown improvement to the other scout classes while it has shown stagnation in ours.Rangers are getting turned down for raids and guilds in favor of other (And Frankly, better suited.) classes which offer the same if not more damage per second and raid/group utility in the form of spells/debuffs/abilities.Please look into these issues and please keep us advised of what you are doing or that you have even read this and acknowledge it.----------------END OF STATMENT--------------------Hexus Lupis--The Ranger Community as a Whole-Special Thanks to: Lewz, Detterrent, Ranja, Cocytus, FuriCuri, Firza, Encantador, Balerius, MedstbhThanks to all of the Ranger Players that have continued to stick with this class through the good and bad times.

Growler

12-05-2007, 10:16 PM

You might want to add the Sebilite Croaking Dirk to the list of weapons that benefit us: +10% to all crafted poison damage.Other than that, excellent post. The arrow mechanics need a thorough investigation - or a downright removal of ammo level.The damage from the different arrows increase via tiers anyhow, so rangers who want max damage (or, more important, max +to hit) will still use the highend crafted arrows.

RaunII

12-05-2007, 11:45 PM

very well put...i cant help but feel it will be falling on deaf ears though. it seems to me long ago the devs decided they hated the ranger class and have since been trying to discourage people from playing it. my 51 ranger has solo'd because no one wants him in groups. he has run speed to offer, but who cares? I understand that developers do not wish to make us buff bots...i do not desire that either, but as it stands, i have nothing but DPS to bring to the table...and our dps is not the best around, so other classes are much more useful in most raid and group situations.I think what they need to do is just lower the damage dealt by auto attacks and ranged combat arts when in duels or pvping, instead of blindly nerfing skills or just making it more difficult to play. our dps is under control...i mean, utility classes easily outparse my ranger even if their gear sucks compared to mine. I cant help but think about rangers i have raided with on my main swashbuckler. most of them had MUCH better gear than my swashy, full fabled, and i was in legendary, mastercrafted, and treasured. even with the best bows available in the game, i could still outparse them due to the broken arrow mechanics. as it stands rangers just dont bring anything to the table on raids...and so i keep playing my swashy.it would be awsome if this post actually made a differance, somehow i dont belive that devs even look at anything the community wants regarding rangers, unless its another fury wanting them to be nerfed cause they cant beat one in pvp.

Hexus

12-05-2007, 11:55 PM

Have actually PM'd a link of this post to Aeralik and Fyreflyte, hopefully they'll come read it. -Hexus-

Asijin

12-06-2007, 04:56 AM

Just wanted to second everything you said regarding arrow mechanics and group buffs not benefiting us. Another concern of mine is the heroic drops for ranged DA (wrist from CoA and the Impetuous set shoulders) have sta/agi/int instead of str/agi/int.

Deterre

12-06-2007, 05:44 AM

Great post, Hexus, thanks.<cite>Growler wrote:</cite><blockquote>You might want to add the Sebilite Croaking Dirk to the list of weapons that benefit us: +10% to all crafted poison damage.</blockquote>Where can I get that? :o

Clarrice

12-06-2007, 11:54 AM

It may add 10% to poison dmg but it sucks so much most people have been vendoring it.

Growler

12-06-2007, 12:12 PM

Clarrice:Well, it might suck for all other scouts than rangers. With my pityful intelligence while soloing (156), I do 822 damage with Expert's Caustic poison - 904 damage with the dirk equipped - crits for 1161-ish. It's noticeable in my ACT parses.Deterrent:I got it for 8p on the broker, there were several up there, that was the lowest. It drops from mobs in Sebilis and Crypt of Agony (<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1407295719" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-1407295719</a>)I don't really care about the price I paid for it, and we'll probably drop several once the guild starts farming CoA - 8p is nothing, compared to what we will be paying for Masters...

Clarrice

12-06-2007, 12:31 PM

Done CoA etc every single day for last wekk or two and never seen it drop. Or the bloody mana drain bow.

Jaggid

12-06-2007, 08:46 PM

Change the subject to Non-PvP Rangers you want to disregard the best rangers.

Oakin

12-07-2007, 04:04 AM

The developers just need to spend 15 minutes and add a level 80 arrow.

Clarrice

12-07-2007, 10:05 AM

<cite>Mistrunner@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Change the subject to Non-PvP Rangers you want to disregard the best rangers.</blockquote>huh? PvP rangers do instances and raid too you know.

Clarrice

12-07-2007, 11:18 AM

Just did the same quest on my dirge and ranger - see anything wrong with the quest rewards for the same quest?<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/mentla/typical.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

Gareorn

12-07-2007, 11:21 AM

<cite>Mistrunner@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Change the subject to Non-PvP Rangers you want to disregard the best rangers.</blockquote>ROFLMAO! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Stop... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> it! You're killing me! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Ranja

12-07-2007, 11:28 AM

<cite>Clarrice wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just did the same quest on my dirge and ranger - see anything wrong with the quest rewards for the same quest?<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/mentla/typical.jpg" border="0" alt="" /></blockquote>That is ridiculous. Who the hell do they think that necklace is for? The other ranged class that wants low strength on their items?? REmove all the stamina and add it to strength. Get rid of the + 8 combat regen and give it +5 ranged. Now we have a neckpiece <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Shaulin Dolamite

12-08-2007, 05:33 PM

I agree with just about everything ive read here. We have a few issues that need to have alittle time spent adjusting and adding, and all I can hope is this post gets alittle attention.

Viglundr

12-09-2007, 12:38 AM

<cite>Hexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>***********DISCLAIMER**************Before you read any further, know that this thread is specifically aimed at Rangers, WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING ANY OTHER CLASS BUT RANGERS.We are also NOT Discussing PVP, a Vast Majority of the Rangers at Large are PVE Rangers, so we are speaking for them here. A Majority of Rangers (PVP and PVE Rangers) believe that PVP and PVE should be seperated entirely, as they have resounding effects on each other, but the problems of a few rangers on PVP is greatly effecting the raid justifiability of many of the PVE Rangers.***********END DISCLAIMER***********For any Developers that read here, here is a summary of what we feel is wrong with the ranger class, our observations, and our thoughts. This is a Compilation of many observations and statements of the Ranger community and not a rant but a general synopsis of the things we feel need addressed.Statement: Rangers are supposed to be RANGE DPS. We have a total of 6 Melee Abilities that we can use other than Ranged attack and the majority (85%) of our AA lines are geared towards ranged combat.FIRST ISSUE: Bow/Arrow mechanics.As it stands right now, an arrow has to be the exact same level as a bow to be able to do 100% of it's possible damage. The reasoning for this was originally so each tier of tradeskilling would be needed with each tier of levels people went through. (I.E. you could not use level 10 arrows and effectively get the same amount of damage as level 40 arrows in auto attack. The Ranged Ability damage for our skills are set in stone, and the only thing that really effects those are skills which Add to Combat Art Damage and Critical Hits.)In practice and implementation this was a fair and novel idea for players and tradeskillers alike. Somewhere along the line someone stopped following up and let this problem get out of hand. Rangers are the only class that relies on their Bow for 80%+ of their DPS, so of course failing to follow up on this would immediately effect the Ranger more than any other class.As it stands right now, the only way for a Ranger to get the damage their bow says they should be getting is to use an Arrow that is Exactly the Same Level as the bow. Mechanics-wise right now, it is more efficient and more damaging for a ranger to use a Tier 7 Fabled Bow with Tier 7 Ammunition than to even worry about upgrading to a Tier 8 Bow. Level 80 Woodworkers can only make level 67 Arrows, so there is not even an option of Tier 8 Ammunition to go with the bow. The Cart has been put before the Horse.Current Example of Tier 7 Raid Fabled Bow versus Tier 8 Raid Fabled Bow:Examples using /weapon command:No Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 805-3218Dragonhawk 841-3363As it should be, the Dragonhawk is a Tier 8 Fabled Bow and should be rated higher for perspective damage.Deathtoll summoned Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 869-3093Dragonhawk 784-2753The arrow mechanics come into play. Remember this is a raid-week lockout zone and a rather rare drop to get this ammunition in the first place.Crafted lvl 67 bodkin Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 892-3116Dragonhawk 807-2776This is the best Player-Crafted ammunition one can buy, level 67, and because of the mechanics you can get more damage with it from the Tier 7 Fabled Bow.Basically you downgrade your damage by getting the New Higher Damage Rating Bow because of the spread between Ammunition Level and Bow Level.SECOND ISSUE: Spells and Items that fail to acknowledge the Ranger ClassI understand that Rangers are only 1 of the 6 scout archetype classes, but we are also the ONLY one (Once Again) who uses our BOW for 80%+ of our DPS and continues to be ignored when designing spells. Range and Melee should fall under the same buffs, however they do not.The List of Offending spells:Dirge: Cacaphony of Blades and Upgrades: The haste does stick to rangers, however there are no other benefits. This would be less DPS for a ranger than any other melee scout because our weapon delay is 9.0 while most other scouts use 4.0 and less delay weapons - We still get no benefit other than haste.Fury: Agitate: Does not work with ranged.Fae Fires: Does not work with ranged.Templar:Glory of Battle: Does not work with ranged.Holy Redoubt: Does not give ranged benefit.Sorceror:Phoenixblade and other damage spells: 0 Ranged Benefit.Guardian: Call to Siege: Does not give any ranged benefit.Items that do not give any beneficial effect when used with Ranged Attack are too many to list, and the ones that do are: Maestro's Flame (Contested x2 Epic Mob)Buckler of the Howler (5 Day Lockout Instanced x4 Epic Mob)We are starting to see the set class armor (Tier 8 Fabled) give +Ranged Double Attack and + Ranged Crit, this is a step in the right direction and for that we are thankful.Epic Quests for Ranger: 4 Epic Quest Lines, none of them useful for Ranged attack, and the one that was useful for Ranged attack was changed due to a "bug."Imbued Rings: Strength ring not working at all with Ranged.Coif of the Reet Knight: Not working at all with Ranged.I would complain more about Tier 7 Itemization however we are no longer in Tier 7 so I feel it is not a valid complaint. Thank you to the developers again who have listened and (it looks like beginning) to see what we were talking about with + ranged crit and + ranged double attack chance on items with + melee Crit and + melee double attack chance.THIRD ISSUE: Raid Usefulness Because of these changes, rangers have become less useful than the other scout classes in raids. We offer nothing to the rest of the raid except some out of combat movement speed, which has no practical application in any raid setting. We offer no beneficial reason to be in a raid other than our damage and the fact that it is from range.Because of Bow/Arrow Mechanics we have less damage than other classes and combined with the lack of beneficial buffs which do not effect ranged dps Tier 8 has shown improvement to the other scout classes while it has shown stagnation in ours.Rangers are getting turned down for raids and guilds in favor of other (And Frankly, better suited.) classes which offer the same if not more damage per second and raid/group utility in the form of spells/debuffs/abilities.Please look into these issues and please keep us advised of what you are doing or that you have even read this and acknowledge it.----------------END OF STATMENT--------------------Hexus Lupis--The Ranger Community as a Whole-Special Thanks to: Lewz, Detterrent, Ranja, Cocytus, FuriCuri, Firza, Encantador, Balerius, MedstbhThanks to all of the Ranger Players that have continued to stick with this class through the good and bad times.</blockquote>AMEN!

Hexus

12-10-2007, 09:01 PM

Are any of the Developers going to even look at this post and acknowledge it's existence? Most of this class are already convinced that you despise the ranger class in general, you are not doing much to sway that opinion. Have any of you even seen this? I know I PM'd it to Aeralik and Fyreflyte with 0 response... -Hexus-

EQ2Magroo

12-10-2007, 09:08 PM

The devs are too busy trying to come up with a new way of nerfing us to be able to post.Remember, a quiet dev, is a dangerous dev <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Clarrice

12-10-2007, 10:21 PM

<cite>Adeyia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The devs are too busy trying to come up with a new way of nerfing us to be able to post.Remember, a quiet dev, is a dangerous dev <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Or as I always say on PvP - made by rogues for rogues.

Badaxe Ba

12-12-2007, 01:37 AM

<cite>Hexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>***********DISCLAIMER**************Before you read any further, know that this thread is specifically aimed at Rangers, WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING ANY OTHER CLASS BUT RANGERS.We are also NOT Discussing PVP, a Vast Majority of the Rangers at Large are PVE Rangers, so we are speaking for them here. A Majority of Rangers (PVP and PVE Rangers) believe that PVP and PVE should be seperated entirely, as they have resounding effects on each other, but the problems of a few rangers on PVP is greatly effecting the raid justifiability of many of the PVE Rangers.***********END DISCLAIMER***********For any Developers that read here, here is a summary of what we feel is wrong with the ranger class, our observations, and our thoughts. This is a Compilation of many observations and statements of the Ranger community and not a rant but a general synopsis of the things we feel need addressed.Statement: Rangers are supposed to be RANGE DPS. We have a total of 6 Melee Abilities that we can use other than Ranged attack and the majority (85%) of our AA lines are geared towards ranged combat.FIRST ISSUE: Bow/Arrow mechanics.As it stands right now, an arrow has to be the exact same level as a bow to be able to do 100% of it's possible damage. The reasoning for this was originally so each tier of tradeskilling would be needed with each tier of levels people went through. (I.E. you could not use level 10 arrows and effectively get the same amount of damage as level 40 arrows in auto attack. The Ranged Ability damage for our skills are set in stone, and the only thing that really effects those are skills which Add to Combat Art Damage and Critical Hits.)In practice and implementation this was a fair and novel idea for players and tradeskillers alike. Somewhere along the line someone stopped following up and let this problem get out of hand. Rangers are the only class that relies on their Bow for 80%+ of their DPS, so of course failing to follow up on this would immediately effect the Ranger more than any other class.As it stands right now, the only way for a Ranger to get the damage their bow says they should be getting is to use an Arrow that is Exactly the Same Level as the bow. Mechanics-wise right now, it is more efficient and more damaging for a ranger to use a Tier 7 Fabled Bow with Tier 7 Ammunition than to even worry about upgrading to a Tier 8 Bow. Level 80 Woodworkers can only make level 67 Arrows, so there is not even an option of Tier 8 Ammunition to go with the bow. The Cart has been put before the Horse.Current Example of Tier 7 Raid Fabled Bow versus Tier 8 Raid Fabled Bow:Examples using /weapon command:No Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 805-3218Dragonhawk 841-3363As it should be, the Dragonhawk is a Tier 8 Fabled Bow and should be rated higher for perspective damage.Deathtoll summoned Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 869-3093Dragonhawk 784-2753The arrow mechanics come into play. Remember this is a raid-week lockout zone and a rather rare drop to get this ammunition in the first place.Crafted lvl 67 bodkin Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 892-3116Dragonhawk 807-2776This is the best Player-Crafted ammunition one can buy, level 67, and because of the mechanics you can get more damage with it from the Tier 7 Fabled Bow.Basically you downgrade your damage by getting the New Higher Damage Rating Bow because of the spread between Ammunition Level and Bow Level.SECOND ISSUE: Spells and Items that fail to acknowledge the Ranger ClassI understand that Rangers are only 1 of the 6 scout archetype classes, but we are also the ONLY one (Once Again) who uses our BOW for 80%+ of our DPS and continues to be ignored when designing spells. Range and Melee should fall under the same buffs, however they do not.The List of Offending spells:Dirge: Cacaphony of Blades and Upgrades: The haste does stick to rangers, however there are no other benefits. This would be less DPS for a ranger than any other melee scout because our weapon delay is 9.0 while most other scouts use 4.0 and less delay weapons - We still get no benefit other than haste.Fury: Agitate: Does not work with ranged.Fae Fires: Does not work with ranged.Templar:Glory of Battle: Does not work with ranged.Holy Redoubt: Does not give ranged benefit.Sorceror:Phoenixblade and other damage spells: 0 Ranged Benefit.Guardian: Call to Siege: Does not give any ranged benefit.Items that do not give any beneficial effect when used with Ranged Attack are too many to list, and the ones that do are: Maestro's Flame (Contested x2 Epic Mob)Buckler of the Howler (5 Day Lockout Instanced x4 Epic Mob)We are starting to see the set class armor (Tier 8 Fabled) give +Ranged Double Attack and + Ranged Crit, this is a step in the right direction and for that we are thankful.Epic Quests for Ranger: 4 Epic Quest Lines, none of them useful for Ranged attack, and the one that was useful for Ranged attack was changed due to a "bug."Imbued Rings: Strength ring not working at all with Ranged.Coif of the Reet Knight: Not working at all with Ranged.I would complain more about Tier 7 Itemization however we are no longer in Tier 7 so I feel it is not a valid complaint. Thank you to the developers again who have listened and (it looks like beginning) to see what we were talking about with + ranged crit and + ranged double attack chance on items with + melee Crit and + melee double attack chance.THIRD ISSUE: Raid Usefulness Because of these changes, rangers have become less useful than the other scout classes in raids. We offer nothing to the rest of the raid except some out of combat movement speed, which has no practical application in any raid setting. We offer no beneficial reason to be in a raid other than our damage and the fact that it is from range.Because of Bow/Arrow Mechanics we have less damage than other classes and combined with the lack of beneficial buffs which do not effect ranged dps Tier 8 has shown improvement to the other scout classes while it has shown stagnation in ours.Rangers are getting turned down for raids and guilds in favor of other (And Frankly, better suited.) classes which offer the same if not more damage per second and raid/group utility in the form of spells/debuffs/abilities.Please look into these issues and please keep us advised of what you are doing or that you have even read this and acknowledge it.----------------END OF STATMENT--------------------Hexus Lupis--The Ranger Community as a Whole-Special Thanks to: Lewz, Detterrent, Ranja, Cocytus, FuriCuri, Firza, Encantador, Balerius, MedstbhThanks to all of the Ranger Players that have continued to stick with this class through the good and bad times.</blockquote>Please clarify why PvP rangers should be considered second class to PvE rangers. we do raid as well, and are suffering the same symptoms as PvE rangers as to raid viability.We are a part of the ranger community you claim to represent. As a PvP ranger, I'm not sure exactly what PvP rangers have done to hurt the total ranger community (since we have an entirely different ruleset), not to mention PvE rangers have been around a lot longer than PvP rangers. If anything, I'd be inclined to believe that Top PvE rangers might be more responsible for certain changes to the entire class than they might be comfortable with admitting.Other than claiming PvP rangers are the redheaded stepchild of the ranger community, I agree with the rest of your post.

Krakelkr

12-12-2007, 12:00 PM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Please clarify why PvP rangers should be considered second class to PvE rangers. we do raid as well, and are suffering the same symptoms as PvE rangers as to raid viability.We are a part of the ranger community you claim to represent. As a PvP ranger, I'm not sure exactly what PvP rangers have done to hurt the total ranger community (since we have an entirely different ruleset), not to mention PvE rangers have been around a lot longer than PvP rangers. If anything, I'd be inclined to believe that Top PvE rangers might be more responsible for certain changes to the entire class than they might be comfortable with admitting.</blockquote>The line in italics above is of course correct, no question about it. Most or all the changes that affect all rangers are due to pve, nm the effects on pvp that it has. But it is an attitude towards pvp that we seemingly should have to live with.As regards the OP. I had high hopes for equipment in this expansion because it seemed so clear to me that rangers had been overlooked. What I've seen so far makes me think that I had misunderstood the situation. I know believe that they simply don't know the game mechanics pertaining to the ranger class very well. For example, there is no reason to halve ranged bonuses (da, crits) compared to melee at all, the damage bonus is the same. But I think they don't know that because of all the talk about long delay weapons.So I see little hope.

Kilaak

12-12-2007, 12:53 PM

State of the Class When the class mod on EQ2Flames betrays to assass it should tell you something about the classes direction.

Clarrice

12-12-2007, 01:33 PM

Who hasn't at least had a passing though of this recently? Has anyone gone a day online without seeing some weapons, armor or item of jewelry drop that isn't better suited to melee DPS than ranged? And when things that drop for us they usually have crapy stats or more melee crits than ranged etc.

MacDaddy62

12-12-2007, 01:40 PM

<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Please clarify why PvP rangers should be considered second class to PvE rangers. we do raid as well, and are suffering the same symptoms as PvE rangers as to raid viability.We are a part of the ranger community you claim to represent. As a PvP ranger, I'm not sure exactly what PvP rangers have done to hurt the total ranger community (since we have an entirely different ruleset), not to mention PvE rangers have been around a lot longer than PvP rangers. If anything, I'd be inclined to believe that Top PvE rangers might be more responsible for certain changes to the entire class than they might be comfortable with admitting.</blockquote>The line in italics above is of course correct, no question about it. Most or all the changes that affect all rangers are due to pve, nm the effects on pvp that it has. But it is an attitude towards pvp that we seemingly should have to live with.As regards the OP. I had high hopes for equipment in this expansion because it seemed so clear to me that rangers had been overlooked. What I've seen so far makes me think that I had misunderstood the situation. I know believe that they simply don't know the game mechanics pertaining to the ranger class very well. For example, there is no reason to halve ranged bonuses (da, crits) compared to melee at all, the damage bonus is the same. But I think they don't know that because of all the talk about long delay weapons.So I see little hope.</blockquote>There seems to be a sort of doublethink and/or miscommunication going on at Sony with respect to ranger auto bow dps. On the one hand, they tuned DW auto melee dps up a couple months ago seemingly to bring it in line with ranger auto bow dps (and they did accomplish that goal, intentionally or not, with that tune). However, they are now, in RoK, penalizing rangers on gear bonuses for an auto attack dps advantage they no longer have, but which is still hyped up as real by many ignorant and/or asinine forum posters. Thus, it seems that either the devs are now denying to themselves that this buff to DW dps ever occurred, or else the people in charge of the itemization have not been accurately informed of the true current bow vs. DW auto attack situation and are instead buying into the bs forum hype, which still (falsely) holds that auto bow dps is omg uber because bows hit twice as hard as melee weapons. Based on comments I've seen from Fyreflyte, the correct explanation seems to be at least partially the latter.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere

Shaulin Dolamite

12-14-2007, 10:34 AM

<cite>Clarrice wrote:</cite><blockquote>Who hasn't at least had a passing though of this recently? Has anyone gone a day online without seeing some weapons, armor or item of jewelry drop that isn't better suited to melee DPS than ranged? And when things that drop for us they usually have crapy stats or more melee crits than ranged etc.</blockquote>Have seen this on 95% of scout drops, i wont roll because it has melee crit or melee double attack. When a piece finally drops thats good for me in has 5 range crit but zero str, the main stat is sta(shakes head).

Badaxe Ba

12-14-2007, 05:40 PM

nine days since this topic was started, and not even a 'hi, kinda busy atm but I'm here for ya' post.Do we even have a Ranger Dev anymore?At this point I'd settle for a 'scout' Dev even.

Azrael_888

12-14-2007, 11:56 PM

For such a well put post it amazes me that not even one DEV can't come in and say we hear you ranger's and were looking into somethings we might be able to change to better your class. But like Bart says; it's been nine days and no post from any kind of developer.Lame SOE..in fact UBAH lame.

DrkEmr

12-15-2007, 01:10 AM

Maybe they are busy working on the "at home" online service for Playstation3?

Vhynne

12-15-2007, 04:36 AM

they are probably at the christmas party with all the tech support people that will not be able to assist me until monday. great post, it's ridiculous that this has gone without comment from any devs

TheSpin

12-15-2007, 01:25 PM

I just wanted to mention that just because a developer hasn't responded to a post, it doesn't mean a dev hasn't taken time to read it. If I was in charge of fixing a problem like this I would read this post and then get to work on a solution. Until that solution is found there is little reason for a dev to post here. How many threads have you seen where devs post , "Thanks for the heads up, we're trying to figure this out but we don't know how yet." Most dev responses are all about good news so they won't post until there is some. This is likely for a couple reasons, but one of the first that come to mind is the dev tracker and that them posting in a thread that they don't have a solution for is going to bring more publicity to an issue that they haven't solved yet.

Azrael_888

12-15-2007, 03:16 PM

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just wanted to mention that just because a developer hasn't responded to a post, it doesn't mean a dev hasn't taken time to read it. If I was in charge of fixing a problem like this I would read this post and then get to work on a solution. Until that solution is found there is little reason for a dev to post here. How many threads have you seen where devs post , "Thanks for the heads up, we're trying to figure this out but we don't know how yet." Most dev responses are all about good news so they won't post until there is some. This is likely for a couple reasons, but one of the first that come to mind is the dev tracker and that them posting in a thread that they don't have a solution for is going to bring more publicity to an issue that they haven't solved yet.</blockquote>[Removed for Content]. Dood you are totally going to take this the wrong way but there's really no other way to put it. This is not a "new" thread. Although the level of thought that went into this one (formatting wise) put it into a context into which any half way intelligent person would go OMG these rangers are totally getting hosed!My point is the great and all powerful SOE Devs (Wizard of Oz reference there) have known about all these issues posted here. The person who authored the post even stated that this is a compilation of ongoing issues that Rangers have endured over the past X amount of months. So them trying to figure it out and fix it and then respond to these posts should have been weeks ago. Not weeks from now.

Shaulin Dolamite

12-15-2007, 03:57 PM

I would agree that they are busy and the holidays slow things up, but at the same time a quick pop in and a "hi" so to speak is far from uncalled for from the staff who support the game we all play : )Ive seen quite a few posts of this nature have a dev pop in to say "hey I read through this and am going to look into a few things". And that simple reply alone allowed most of that class who were passionate enough to post to sit back and take a small sigh of relief : )

Shaulin Dolamite

12-15-2007, 03:58 PM

sorry left blank double post , internet grrrrr

Shaulin Dolamite

12-15-2007, 04:05 PM

sorry left blank, triple post

Hexus

12-16-2007, 04:40 AM

I am still lobbying to get some kind of response to this post. Please post and show your support of this topic, ranger or not. Thank you, Hexus Lupis

Fyreflyte

12-16-2007, 05:32 AM

This issue is on our radar. Due to its complexity, there's nothing immediate we can do about it, but we are discussing it and looking into it.

burny4

12-16-2007, 06:05 AM

Woah... they are finally going to look into an issue with the ranger class that might result in something good. Dust off your bows, and put away your swashies its time to get to work. Thank you to the OP for not giving up on us and finally drawing attention to these issues.

Shaulin Dolamite

12-16-2007, 02:07 PM

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>This issue is on our radar. Due to its complexity, there's nothing immediate we can do about it, but we are discussing it and looking into it.</blockquote>TY very Much Fyreflyte for the responce, waiting anxiously for any news <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kala Asuras

12-16-2007, 02:40 PM

Thank you so much for responding to this post Fyreflyle. Please continue the dialogue with the Ranger community. It is nice to know that it is being looked into but don't ignore the vast experience and ideas available to you here and on other forums such as Flames. Getting input early will drastically reduce the chance of time and resources being spent on a solution that falls short of both developer and player expectations. I believe that if ideas are presented as brainstorming your player base will be more then happy to help and later won't jump on you for unfulfilled promises. I for one will defend you and the others working on this to the hilt if accusations of "they said they would do this and then ended up not doing it" come from a brainstorming thread. I'm sure others agree. Some things that would start things rolling would be for us as players to know the current vision for a Ranger. Should DPS balancing be done considering the best equipped (including poisons and arrows which can carry a high cost other classes don't have) and best played rangers, or do you shoot for a middle of the road average? How do you balance itemization, both in effects on the items and in number of drops, for rangers considering they have very specific needs apart from their melee brethren but only make up 1/6th of the scouts? How do you consider raid utility when you determine DPS balancing? Anyway, thanks agian for letting us know you are out there reading and please don't be a stranger. Drop in and update us, use our feedback, make communication a goal and everyone will be much happier. Domino is a wonderful example of a passionate developer that listens to the players but doesn't pull a punch when it is needed either and the community has responded to her making the game more enjoyable for everyone.

Badaxe Ba

12-16-2007, 05:36 PM

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>This issue is on our radar. Due to its complexity, there's nothing immediate we can do about it, but we are discussing it and looking into it.</blockquote>First off, thank you for responding. Just to clear up some fog on the issue of your area of responsibilities in regards to scouts, specifically the ranger class, are you assigned as our Dev? The reason I ask is to get an idea of where, in regards to priority of your list of projects, do we fall?Perusing your previous posts, I notice that the majority of your forum responses fall in itemization and equipment topics. Now I know that bow and arrow mechanics fall into that category, and I can well understand the complexity of those mechanics, considering the math. I feel confident at least that this issue is at least being looked at by someone who knows the importance and dependency rangers have on relying on their bows as their primary weapon.The state of the ranger class as a whole though, goes beyond just bows and arrows, which is why I guess I'm still foggy as to who our class Dev is, and why I'm asking this question.Thank you again for recognizing and responding to us.

Hexus

12-16-2007, 08:04 PM

Fyreflyte was kind enough to respond here and let us know what was going on. I have tried to involve all the Developers and point them to this. Aeralik (Lead Design) knows about this, Domino (Tradeskilling - Arrows) knows about this, and Fyreflyte was kind enough to come post and let us know that they are looking at it. It may not be a quick fix issue, but at least we are recognized now and hopefully they will look into doing something about it. This is progress, please don't think the issue is solved. Continued to post with problems and thoughts and suggestions. Remember, that while they design this game, every beta shows them that players will do 10,000 things that they never thought to test for or design for, and we know the game better than anyone, because we are immersed in it, but we just see a small piece of the big painting that they have to deal with. Allow them some time to come up with some type of solution, but don't stop pointing out what can be mended and what is broken. -Hexus Lupis-

Yonaton

12-17-2007, 04:56 AM

Arrow mechanics aside,I'm really dissapointed in teh ranger's melee dps. I just betrayed my lvl 27 assassin early in the week,39 aa and all,to Qeynos. Fresh set of adept 3's and masters(what I could find) later,and I'm out giving him a go. ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. Dps seems none-existent,even at ranged. Mind this Ranger is in a full set of steel mc,fully adorned,and cannot take a blue con cloth wearer even with getting the drop and the hardest hitting of my ranged attacks off. In fact,all my ranged attacks. Absolutely rediculous IMO. So I'm looking at two gimped rangers now. And it's sad,since rangers are a wonderful class. I would gladly have less runspeed for enough dps to put up a fight,instead of being a token/fame machine to any pvp'er I end up facing. Please,for the sake of the ranger community,give us back a bit of dps. Pvp rangers,no matter how twinked,are getting nailed hard on Vox. Not asking for an easy button here,jsut to stay alive a little bit,instead of getting our faces pwned when we run without a group.

Yonaton

12-17-2007, 05:01 AM

Something else as well. I read here on the forums,to paraphrase "You want a melee ranger? Play an assassin." Which would be groovy,except we can't have that class in Qeynos. And IMO,the assassin has 10 times the dps(my exaggeration of course,since I don't know the actual numbers). As soon as I got villiany,all bets were off. Master 1'd it was jsut sick compared to any amount of damage my ranger can do.

Zeijandi

12-17-2007, 12:41 PM

I dinged 80 last night. Then I went to Chelsith. The parses were a bit dissapointing. I'm using MC poisons and I have the Conservation AA. Our DPS needs help and the help should come from these bizarre arrow and bow mechanics.Let a woodworker make level 80 arrows at level 80, level 70 arrows at level 70, and so on.Than go and balance your bows.Its some work, but after it is done, you have a system that makes sense and a ranger class that will probably shut up and be happy shooting things.

DuskNightfall

12-17-2007, 05:59 PM

Isnt it rather strange that the T8 arrows arent exactly in and what a coincidence.. Specialized faction recipies for trade skillers arent in the game yet either. Could that be part of the fun thats waiting to be put into the game? I'd rather they did a proper and tested, oh and balanced implementation than a shoddy one. I understand you feel you have something to complain about but you didnt stop to think about pieces of the expansion that have not been implemented yet. You arent the only ones waiting (/cough you will be 80 for perhaps 2 years so a few months isnt a big deal) and i have a feeling that the best is yet to come for both of holes waiting for closure. /gets off my soapbox

Ruldayen

12-17-2007, 06:08 PM

I think what they have done is return the arrow mechanics back to pre t5 (UD13?) , however back then we had two options.One was mastercrafted arrows they acted like t6 ammo giving the t5 bow 100 %. The other was NPC ammo merchants sold t6 arrows.If we return to that formula we would have: t8 npc merchantarrow <summoned<player handcrafted< T9 npc merchantarrow<mastercrafted/questarrows orTynnonite<used arrow<ferrite type arrows<t9 (whatever rare name) npc arrow< playermade Tynnoite/Questarrows .Again facts maybe wrong going from memory. Ruldayen

Guard_Ra

12-18-2007, 01:40 PM

<cite>DuskNightfall wrote:</cite><blockquote>Isnt it rather strange that the T8 arrows arent exactly in and what a coincidence.. Specialized faction recipies for trade skillers arent in the game yet either. Could that be part of the fun thats waiting to be put into the game? I'd rather they did a proper and tested, oh and balanced implementation than a shoddy one. I understand you feel you have something to complain about but you didnt stop to think about pieces of the expansion that have not been implemented yet. You arent the only ones waiting (/cough you will be 80 for perhaps 2 years so a few months isnt a big deal) and i have a feeling that the best is yet to come for both of holes waiting for closure. /gets off my soapbox</blockquote>T8 crafted arrows are in the game, they are level 67 ferrite arrows that require a 76 Woodworker to make. Adding more arrows is not the fix to this problem, it's only a bandaid to it.

Ranja

12-18-2007, 02:29 PM

<cite>DuskNightfall wrote:</cite><blockquote>Isnt it rather strange that the T8 arrows arent exactly in and what a coincidence.. Specialized faction recipies for trade skillers arent in the game yet either. Could that be part of the fun thats waiting to be put into the game? I'd rather they did a proper and tested, oh and balanced implementation than a shoddy one. I understand you feel you have something to complain about but you didnt stop to think about pieces of the expansion that have not been implemented yet. You arent the only ones waiting (/cough you will be 80 for perhaps 2 years so a few months isnt a big deal) and i have a feeling that the best is yet to come for both of holes waiting for closure. /gets off my soapbox</blockquote>You have no idea what this thread is about or what the arrow issue really is. There are T8 arrows in the game. They are level 67! They are called Ferrite arrows. There have never been tier appropriate arrows in the game. t7 are 57, t6 are 47 and so on and so on. I suggest you read up on all of these threads here and the combat boards to get a better understanding of the arrow mechanic. After all, it affects your class the most<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rahmn

12-18-2007, 02:57 PM

This issue is ancient, I doubt a viable solution is on the horizon.

Hexus

12-24-2007, 05:59 AM

If this issue is ancient, it's only truly become a real serious issue in T8. Most of the higher end raiding personnel acquired the bows from DT or if they weren't a raider they stuck with the HQ Bow and used the T7 Crafted arrows to maximize damage. Now there's no real choice for anyone except to continue using this broken mechanic. We need to keep this post alive, because a simple one line post from a Developer does not a solution make. Voice your opinions, make some kind of statement. -Hexus-

pseudocide

12-24-2007, 03:26 PM

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DuskNightfall wrote:</cite><blockquote>Isnt it rather strange that the T8 arrows arent exactly in and what a coincidence.. Specialized faction recipies for trade skillers arent in the game yet either. .../gets off my soapbox</blockquote>You have no idea what this thread is about or what the arrow issue really is. There are T8 arrows in the game. They are level 67! They are called Ferrite arrows. There have never been tier appropriate arrows in the game. t7 are 57, t6 are 47 and so on and so on. I suggest you read up on all of these threads here and the combat boards to get a better understanding of the arrow mechanic. After all, it affects your class the most<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></blockquote>yes technically "tier 8 crafted" arrows are in game, but as everyone (except sony) knows, the result is not truly tier 8 ammo. i think he meant that one of the faction recipies could be for arrows that are lvl 70+, which would be TRUE t8 ammo, provided it doesnt require a fabled harvest to make 1 stack.

Clarrice

12-27-2007, 06:11 PM

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>This issue is on our radar. Due to its complexity, there's nothing immediate we can do about it, but we are discussing it and looking into it.</blockquote>Please don't take this as flippant or rude, but you've had literally months to fix this. Is it any more complicated than letting Woodworkers make arrows for each tier?

houchicouchiman

12-28-2007, 11:15 AM

This whole arrow lvl vs bow lvl issue is so old and lame IMO they will never fix it. Reality is a bow damage range should be set regardless of the arrow used. The arrow should just add to the damage. Better arrows would add +250 CA ranged damage or some such thing and then just scale the added damage to the tier of the arrow.If they went to a system like this Field points could add high bonus CA damage, Bodkins could add high +to hit bonus, and Broadheads could add DoT (ie +45 damage every 4 sec). They could do some cool things with it.

Clarrice

12-28-2007, 12:27 PM

<cite>Fupa@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole arrow lvl vs bow lvl issue is so old and lame IMO they will never fix it. Reality is a bow damage range should be set regardless of the arrow used. The arrow should just add to the damage. Better arrows would add +250 CA ranged damage or some such thing and then just scale the added damage to the tier of the arrow.If they went to a system like this Field points could add high bonus CA damage, Bodkins could add high +to hit bonus, and Broadheads could add DoT (ie +45 damage every 4 sec). They could do some cool things with it.</blockquote>That's a workable quick-fix imo.

Badaxe Ba

12-29-2007, 04:35 PM

<cite>Fupa@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>This whole arrow lvl vs bow lvl issue is so old and lame IMO they will never fix it. Reality is a bow damage range should be set regardless of the arrow used. The arrow should just add to the damage. Better arrows would add +250 CA ranged damage or some such thing and then just scale the added damage to the tier of the arrow.If they went to a system like this Field points could add high bonus CA damage, Bodkins could add high +to hit bonus, and Broadheads could add DoT (ie +45 damage every 4 sec). They could do some cool things with it.</blockquote>CA's don't use arrows anymore, lets not backstep here. The mechanic is for autoattack when ammo usage occurs.Ok, Holidays almost over, Dev's do us proud, and fix this boondoggle!

houchicouchiman

12-29-2007, 09:43 PM

Ranged CA should use arrows. IMO its common sense that anytime you fire a bow (CA or AA) an arrow should be consumed. When they did away with arrow consumption by CA it was a bad move. They need to shorten the makeshift arrow timer is all and up the amount you get. Set the damage range on bows as I described before and give player crafted arrows bonuses. Have Summoned arrows add nothing or even give a negative. But the magical non-existing arrows my toon fires now with every CA is silly. If your a ranger and run out of arrows your a bad ranger and the term "NOOB" would be fitting.

Odawnus Haste

12-30-2007, 12:18 AM

<cite>Fupa@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ranged CA should use arrows. IMO its common sense that anytime you fire a bow (CA or AA) an arrow should be consumed. When they did away with arrow consumption by CA it was a bad move. They need to shorten the makeshift arrow timer is all and up the amount you get. Set the damage range on bows as I described before and give player crafted arrows bonuses. Have Summoned arrows add nothing or even give a negative. But the magical non-existing arrows my toon fires now with every CA is silly. If your a ranger and run out of arrows your a bad ranger and the term "NOOB" would be fitting.</blockquote>I think before that, they would have to make them worth using. Don't think any raiders( i dont thats for sure) use them or even still have it on their hot bar.

Hexus

12-30-2007, 12:59 AM

<cite>Fupa@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ranged CA should use arrows. IMO its common sense that anytime you fire a bow (CA or AA) an arrow should be consumed. When they did away with arrow consumption by CA it was a bad move. They need to shorten the makeshift arrow timer is all and up the amount you get. Set the damage range on bows as I described before and give player crafted arrows bonuses. Have Summoned arrows add nothing or even give a negative. But the magical non-existing arrows my toon fires now with every CA is silly. If your a ranger and run out of arrows your a bad ranger and the term "NOOB" would be fitting.</blockquote>I personally don't miss firing through 2400 arrows on a 4 hour raid becaus RA's used arrows, but I would be willing to take it back (Even if the only T9 Arrows were player crafted) if they would fix the arrow mechanics and give us arrows that upgrade with our bows. Masochistic? You bet, but it would be worth it in the long run, maybe some rangers would be wanted on raids again and in the upper echelon raiding guilds again, and not just there because they've always been there or are friends with the GL (I.E. they'd actually be WANTED again).And this post isn't about ONLY arrow mechanics, but I believe that fix would negate most of the other complaints involved.-Hexus-

Shaulin Dolamite

12-30-2007, 05:17 AM

<cite>Hexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fupa@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ranged CA should use arrows. IMO its common sense that anytime you fire a bow (CA or AA) an arrow should be consumed. When they did away with arrow consumption by CA it was a bad move. They need to shorten the makeshift arrow timer is all and up the amount you get. Set the damage range on bows as I described before and give player crafted arrows bonuses. Have Summoned arrows add nothing or even give a negative. But the magical non-existing arrows my toon fires now with every CA is silly. If your a ranger and run out of arrows your a bad ranger and the term "NOOB" would be fitting.</blockquote>I personally don't miss firing through 2400 arrows on a 4 hour raid becaus RA's used arrows, but I would be willing to take it back (Even if the only T9 Arrows were player crafted) if they would fix the arrow mechanics and give us arrows that upgrade with our bows. Masochistic? You bet, but it would be worth it in the long run, maybe some rangers would be wanted on raids again and in the upper echelon raiding guilds again, and not just there because they've always been there or are friends with the GL (I.E. they'd actually be WANTED again).And this post isn't about ONLY arrow mechanics, but I believe that fix would negate most of the other complaints involved.-Hexus-</blockquote>I 100% completely disagree. The arrow fix is just that a fix, we shouldnt have to suffer stepping back a few LU's with the consumption of arrows on CA's so that we can shoot an arrow that is the proper tier.

Hexus

12-30-2007, 05:45 AM

I understand your frustration, but there are only 2 (yes, only 2) classes that even have RA's if I recall, Assassin and Ranger. We are the only ones that the RA/Usage change had any effect on as we were the only ones using massive quantities of arrows. Arrow Mechanics effect us and nearly noone else whatsoever, as did this change previously. I guess I should have made both statements to show my reasoning for saying it in the first place. -Hexus-

Shaulin Dolamite

12-30-2007, 02:29 PM

I understand your side completely and didnt mean my post to come out quite like that. I just feel us rangers have suffered with the problems for so long that many are willing to suffer serious negatives just to get this fixed : (

Bee

12-30-2007, 08:39 PM

<cite></cite><blockquote>Current Example of Tier 7 Raid Fabled Bow versus Tier 8 Raid Fabled Bow:Examples using /weapon command:No Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 805-3218Dragonhawk 841-3363As it should be, the Dragonhawk is a Tier 8 Fabled Bow and should be rated higher for perspective damage.Deathtoll summoned Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 869-3093Dragonhawk 784-2753The arrow mechanics come into play. Remember this is a raid-week lockout zone and a rather rare drop to get this ammunition in the first place.Crafted lvl 67 bodkin Ammunition:Rigid Scale Bow 892-3116Dragonhawk 807-2776This is the best Player-Crafted ammunition one can buy, level 67, and because of the mechanics you can get more damage with it from the Tier 7 Fabled Bow.Basically you downgrade your damage by getting the New Higher Damage Rating Bow because of the spread between Ammunition Level and Bow Level.</blockquote>One point which is not covered by /weapon and does effect potential damage noticeably, at least on long fights with high level mobs: the summoned ammo is +15% to hit and the bodkins are only +10%. I admit I haven't done the math, but I think that it means the summoned ammo will actually do about the same damage overall on a parse as the bodkins. Makes those free arrows just that much more valuable to people that go through 1000+ arrows in a "short" raid (FTH, not EH).

Solvantis

12-31-2007, 04:55 PM

How can you possible use 10 stacks of arrows in FTH? I am top 1,2,3 of the parse and use about HALF of that... on average my dps is 2500-3200.. crazy..

lilmohi

12-31-2007, 04:56 PM

I just hope that they can put the fun back into the class. However fixing spell procs, itemization and bow mechanics sounds like a project so complex it will take the better part of the year.If the above poster is correct that he is still in the top 1-2 dps positions on his raid it sounds like the raid level ranger isn't hurting all that much, but the mid range ranger suffers a lot, i realize i could just be a bad player but i find myself struggling just to keep of with the paladin that i group with. That said...how many rangers are there? Ranger T8 adept1's on my server are selling for roughly 2-3x's more than they do for my monk or fury. Even before the expansion i was able to buy pretty much all my t7 master1's for under 6pp, except for my ranger whom i was only able to buy a couple that cheap..most were 24pp plus. Oh well at least i can be happy that my ranger is my best harvesting mule.

valmontcsky

12-31-2007, 10:00 PM

You should also know that while raiding rangers are able to do 2k to 3k+ on average in t8 raid zones, assassins, wizards, warlocks, swashies are doing 4k to 5k+ and that and other classes like chanters, brigands, monks, brawlers, etc. are doing 2k to 3k+, so no matter what anyone says in top tier raiding with the top classes the ranger falls behind alot in the dps tree behind the other dps classes that have some ulitity or something to offer a raidSo rangers are really lacking behind in the dps class while we have no utility we can just barely keep up with ulitity classes that offer more to raids than just ranger dps which cant bring the dps anymore compared to other dps classesWith all the nerfs to the class it made us so gimped, if they would of just left it alone like it was intended than the other classes would of caught up eventually or been close to where a none ulitity class should be on the dps chart

Azrael_888

01-01-2008, 03:52 PM

<cite></cite><hr />Yeah and look at all the money wizzies have to spend on arrows to get that high end DPS...wait...<cite></cite>

Hexus

01-01-2008, 05:18 PM

Exactly, our ONE and ONLY job on any raid is DPS. Pure and Simple. We give no buffs that work during raid fights, our debuffs are laughable at best overall and especially when you start comparing them to other classes. We have no hate transfer. ALL WE BRING IS DPS, and if we aren't one of the people fighting for 1-2 on the parse (Always) then something is wrong and someone is shortsighted.I keep seeing people saying "Rangers are doing fine on the parse..." Really? Are they still using T7 bows with T7 Arrows? I'll bet anything that they are. We are crippled by a design flaw, don't get the buffs that other classes do because they were designed for melee rather than Ranged (read the whole beginning post again, it wasn't just about arrows...).I really don't know any other way to compare it......When about 50% of the top tier raiding community raids without rangers, their rangers betray to assassins, and hardly any guilds are recruiting rangers because they have 0 utility and they can get the same dps out of a class WITH some utility that benefits more from the buffs they are giving, how could you not say there is something wrong here and get to work fixing it?-Hexus Lupis-

Azrael_888

01-02-2008, 11:11 PM

What i was too chicken [I cannot control my vocabulary] to say in my original post cause I HATE getting flamed is this:We are a flawed class because 2% of the rangers on the game KNOW there class. meaning they know how to utilize timing, bow and arrow mechanics, get the uber poisons, etc.These rangers "screw" ( and I really hate using that term but essentially that's what is happening) the rest of us because they are that good. The whole reason we got nerfed is because on PVP we were just OWNING...end of story. That makes it absolutely no fun for ne1 when they just get ambushed by a ranger and lose whatever they have on them (unsure of how PVP mechanics work but I'm sure you don't just go and randomly kill people for fun...everything comes down to money in the end)Anyway so if they change arrow mechanics for rangers here they have to change it there. If they do this to rangers here they have to that to rangers there. If they start "giving us back" our dps then the same problem will occur then you'll have everyone screaming that rangers are too powerful then well be right back here again.You know if it's so hard to fix the rangers mechanics just get rid of the class all together. Cause as soon as we get fixed were going down the toilet again because the ubah rangers will be back at it ruining it for the rest of us average joes. (thus I've now said EVERYONE on this forum is average and suxors /sarcasm off)And now i get flamed....

Badaxe Ba

01-03-2008, 12:32 AM

<cite>Azrael_888 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What i was too chicken [I cannot control my vocabulary] to say in my original post cause I HATE getting flamed is this:We are a flawed class because 2% of the rangers on the game KNOW there class. meaning they know how to utilize timing, bow and arrow mechanics, get the uber poisons, etc.These rangers "screw" ( and I really hate using that term but essentially that's what is happening) the rest of us because they are that good. The whole reason we got nerfed is because on PVP we were just OWNING...end of story. That makes it absolutely no fun for ne1 when they just get ambushed by a ranger and lose whatever they have on them (unsure of how PVP mechanics work but I'm sure you don't just go and randomly kill people for fun...everything comes down to money in the end)Anyway so if they change arrow mechanics for rangers here they have to change it there. If they do this to rangers here they have to that to rangers there. If they start "giving us back" our dps then the same problem will occur then you'll have everyone screaming that rangers are too powerful then well be right back here again.You know if it's so hard to fix the rangers mechanics just get rid of the class all together. Cause as soon as we get fixed were going down the toilet again because the ubah rangers will be back at it ruining it for the rest of us average joes. (thus I've now said EVERYONE on this forum is average and suxors /sarcasm off)And now i get flamed....</blockquote>Ok, not a flame, I think, but just some simple facts for ya.Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP. PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE. To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.And yes, on PvP we simply kill each other for fun! Yes, a losing player has a chance to drop coin loot if they are carrying any on them (you learn to bank early and often to avoid this) and the occasional item might drop as well, but nothing over treasured, and only one item at a time, as far as I know.Current Arrow mechanics were a quick fix when the MC arrow recipes were taken out. I really don't think this was done as a deliberate attempt to lower ranger's DPS, as DEV's say they have it on their list of things needing fixing.Of course, to us rangers, with the release of ROK, the urgency we wish the Dev's would fix this has increased tenfold. As to how it relates to PvP, I guarantee ya, we will have our own set of damage ranges.

Idoru

01-03-2008, 05:29 AM

<cite>Azrael_888 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What i was too chicken [I cannot control my vocabulary] to say in my original post cause I HATE getting flamed is this:We are a flawed class because 2% of the rangers on the game KNOW there class. meaning they know how to utilize timing, bow and arrow mechanics, get the uber poisons, etc....(thus I've now said EVERYONE on this forum is average and suxors /sarcasm off)And now i get flamed....</blockquote>Indeed the problem is that you are probably more right than you know. Except for the part about everyone on this forum being average or below. We're on this forum to find out how to be better than average, and the average player doesn't bother looking at the official forums, they're too filled with flames and tirades to be useful ot tolerable for many. The part you are right about is the 2% number. The difference is Ranger is a tough class to play well. But on the other hand there are classes that are hard to play, but not as hard. Probably 5% of monks are played well, 10% of Templars.... etc.

MacDaddy62

01-04-2008, 03:48 PM

<cite>Azrael_888 wrote:</cite><blockquote>What i was too chicken [I cannot control my vocabulary] to say in my original post cause I HATE getting flamed is this:We are a flawed class because 2% of the rangers on the game KNOW there class. meaning they know how to utilize timing, bow and arrow mechanics, get the uber poisons, etc.These rangers "screw" ( and I really hate using that term but essentially that's what is happening) the rest of us because they are that good. The whole reason we got nerfed is because on PVP we were just OWNING...end of story. That makes it absolutely no fun for ne1 when they just get ambushed by a ranger and lose whatever they have on them (unsure of how PVP mechanics work but I'm sure you don't just go and randomly kill people for fun...everything comes down to money in the end)Anyway so if they change arrow mechanics for rangers here they have to change it there. If they do this to rangers here they have to that to rangers there. If they start "giving us back" our dps then the same problem will occur then you'll have everyone screaming that rangers are too powerful then well be right back here again.You know if it's so hard to fix the rangers mechanics just get rid of the class all together. Cause as soon as we get fixed were going down the toilet again because the ubah rangers will be back at it ruining it for the rest of us average joes. (thus I've now said EVERYONE on this forum is average and suxors /sarcasm off)And now i get flamed....</blockquote>While the above is, in part, true, why hasn't this same logic been applied to other classes? Every dps class has people who play it to its fullest potential and have all the buffs and gear and thus do really great dps for that class, so why haven't those classes been nerfed on that basis. The answer, I believe, is two-fold.1. Ranger is an arguably flawed class in the sense that it needs such a large dps advantage over any other class in order to be desirable, given that it has no utility. The problem here is that when rangers have been given this dps advantage in the past, other classes have complained (unjustifiably) because they can no longer compete with rangers on the dps parse. This leads to rangers getting nerfed and becoming [Removed for Content] again because they do less or as much or just marginally more dps than other classes that also bring a lot of utility. Either the devs need to man up and give rangers the dps advantage they need and have the balls to stick to their guns about it, or else they need to give rangers significant utility (in which case rangers would still need better dps than what they have now). Appropriate utility for a ranger would include scout equivalents of wizards' group spell proc and Rays of Disintegration, as rangers belong primarily in a scout dps group.2. When rangers have been good in the past, the mechanics that have made them good have been ones that have made it possible for a relatively large number of them to be good. On the other hand, elite dps for other classes has generally only come through the acquisition of lots of high-end gear, particularly things like Resplendent Robe of Battle and Robe of Al'Kabor. Unfortunately, such high-end gear is relatively sparse for rangers, and they do not have access to anything like those avatar robes. Thus, when you take away from rangers the unique things they had that made them good (i.e. high accuracy, melee weapons proccing off bow), they are screwed because they are now disadvantaged in many ways and advantaged in no ways. The solution here is to bring them up to par in the ways in which they are screwed. This means fixing ranger itemization by putting more ranged bonuses on gear and making RoK bows better (even ignoring broken arrow mechanics, RoK bows suck compared to RoK melee weapons), fixing the myriad melee-only buffs to also work off bow, and improving ranger AA's to actually give them 140 points of meaningful dps AA's (which they are not even close to having atm).-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere

houchicouchiman

01-07-2008, 08:41 PM

Quit trying to blame everything on PvP. You think your getting the shaft on carebear servers, try waking up one day to find they nerfed you again and by the way didnt say anything about it.......two words.....Focus Aim.

Krakelkr

01-08-2008, 01:25 PM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP. PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE. To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]</blockquote>I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.

Barakuz

01-09-2008, 04:06 PM

I agree with Azleya on this one, all classes have players who know how to play the class and others that don't.However, one significant difference for rangers is our complete reliance on gear...specifically : Bow, Arrows and Poisons. Unfortunately, the gear we need to allow us to hit the top of the DPS parse is both hard to obtain and rare (EH Scale and recipe, DT summoned bow) It is ironic that we have a new expansion and increase in XP/AA level cap, yet the ranger community because of flawed arrow mechanics are still using bows from KoS / EoF (Ghostly Bow or RSB). Honestly, this is [Removed for Content] considering the amount of effort made by the ranger community to higlight these issues - prior to the expansion.So what do we actually get in RoK : Crappy bows and still broken arrow mechanics...hey, but they did throw us a bone with +ranged and ranged crit modifiers. However, melee classes get more and better melee modifiers plus they have the some decent easily obtained weapons - Anaphalaxis and Cartoidcutter...to name a few. There is not one decent bow available in RoK that even compares with those from KoS / EoF (Ghostly Bow, Raincaller and RSB)...which IMHO is pretty sad.So basically we are the gimped redheaded stepchild class of EQ2...a class with pretty much zero utility, sub par dps because of flawed arrow mechanics and the lack / difficulty in obtaining the high end gear, expensive to play because of arrow / poison costs.Yet through it all...I still love playing my RangerEensy - Ranger - Kithikor

Odawnus Haste

01-09-2008, 11:09 PM

<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP. PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE. To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]</blockquote>I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.</blockquote>They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.

Krakelkr

01-10-2008, 08:41 AM

<cite>Odawnus Haste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP. PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE. To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]</blockquote>I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.</blockquote>They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.</blockquote>Perhaps I should have elaborated. The pvp ranger whines were largely about the autoattack damage and about how ranged autoattack was too powerful. Double attack and crit percentages were never a problem on pve servers AFAICT, ranged AA just isn't twice as effective as melee AA. For up-front burst dps in pvp it came close to being that, however. Of course with the new long delay melee weps that has changed on pvp too even if focus aim had never been taken out and the new pvp problem is going to be double melee crits for 3000+ damage :p What I was suggesting was that the itemization dev thinks ranged AA is twice as good as melee AA because of pvp whines. Or can you think of another reason for him to think that?

Odawnus Haste

01-10-2008, 03:07 PM

<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odawnus Haste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP. PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE. To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]</blockquote>I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.</blockquote>They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.</blockquote>Perhaps I should have elaborated. The pvp ranger whines were largely about the autoattack damage and about how ranged autoattack was too powerful. Double attack and crit percentages were never a problem on pve servers AFAICT, ranged AA just isn't twice as effective as melee AA. For up-front burst dps in pvp it came close to being that, however. Of course with the new long delay melee weps that has changed on pvp too even if focus aim had never been taken out and the new pvp problem is going to be double melee crits for 3000+ damage :p What I was suggesting was that the itemization dev thinks ranged AA is twice as good as melee AA because of pvp whines. Or can you think of another reason for him to think that?</blockquote>Maybe because rangers have always had poor itemization i.e. Melee weapons only give us stats, 99% of the proc jewelry doesnt benefit us. Im still using T7 gear even tho I have T8 gear, the T7 gear just does more DPS. If people are crying about 3k+ autos then they need to gear up, you should have a good amount of hp now. Not every spec works for pvp, if you dont spec for HP then dont whine cause its your fault. DA is mostly luck in pvp unless you have an illusionist, if you a bard then you can up your chances a bit but its still nothing to rely on unless you have the Full EoF bonus. Most pvp fights last only a matter of seconds unless in group pvp. Stop acting like range DA isnt overpowered, have you ever buffed up to 80+ range DA? Well I have and its pretty ridiculous what kind of DPS you can pull even in RoK. DA is fine as it is, yea i would like to see more but wouldnt everybody. They need to fix ammo and give our CA's more damage. Oh yea just to let you know there are mobs on the pvp server, which makes it just like pve except as soon as your engage with another player everything is downscaled and put in the pvp ruleset, even if you are still fighting mobs which still hit you for the same amount.

Lolianna

01-10-2008, 11:02 PM

Odawnus: ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? Okay, I honestly was giving the whole pvp vs. pve theory the cold shoulder; UNTIL I read your post. 1) SPEC FOR HP: I'm sorry I do not know a single PVE ranger that will ever, ever choose to spec for HP. However, it DOES explain the freaking drops I have been seeing in raid. STA + INT.. ooo. STA + INT + AGI!! OMG, now we are talking!! Cuz everyone knows how much agi helps the rangers since.. never. Here I been asking the devs to explain why all this fabled ranged gear has lost it's strength. Now, it makes perfect sense!! PVP RANGERS spec and are looking for HP gear!! I should have just asked you. 2) 80% DA for rangers: Please tell me you are lying. In PVE rangers have been very, very lucky in the past to get more than 8% DA from their aa's. Yes, even with an illusionist, the TOP I have ever seen is somewhere between 33 and 40% Please, please give us a hint where we can find buffs and gear that will give us 80% DA!! UNLESS you are specifically talking about PVP rangers. Even then.. wowo.. DEVS [Removed for Content] listen up.. PVE rangers WANT WANT WANT 80% DA buffed; Odawnus has now opened up our eyes and I want to know how to get spec'd/geared/buffed for 80% DA in PVE.This week I got a helm upgrade: I was tickled to death to see both strength and +4 to range crit on it. Last nite another scout helm dropped... almost duplicate stats except for effects. Get this: + 4 double attack and +4 melee crit. I thought to myself, why? What could possibly be so over powering about giving rangers the same stats as the scout melee gear?? Then a jerk like you comes here talking about getting maxed health spec'd and 80% DA buffed on PVP and it all makes sense.. not. Now I really have to know; what the heck is going on?? It is truly starting to sound like PVP rangers are in a sense 'overpowered', but, it is not AT ALL the same way on PVE. So, if you don't have a clue how bad it is; if you are not fighting dragons instead of each other; if you aren't being outparsed by illusionists, mages, and all the rest of the scouts .. then you need not post telling us how 'easy' it is to 'beat' other classes. I am not here to start a war between PVP and PVE, but, it really does appear, if what Odawnus says is all 'truths', that PVP rangers are overpowered and PVE rangers are seriously suffering from itemization, mechanics, at least 5 broken spells (Stream, Hawk, Surveil, Amazing Arrow and Coverage); procs from gear, player buffs and oh wait.. that wasn't enough.. let's strip procs off melee weapons too; cuz those rangers are just sooo overpowered!! Then, big, bad Odawnus pops his head in here and tells us to quit crying!! We just do not know how to play our class! Buahahaha.

Odawnus Haste

01-10-2008, 11:29 PM

<cite>Meerah@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>Odawnus: ARE YOU SERIOUS?!? Okay, I honestly was giving the whole pvp vs. pve theory the cold shoulder; UNTIL I read your post. 1) SPEC FOR HP: I'm sorry I do not know a single PVE ranger that will ever, ever choose to spec for HP. However, it DOES explain the freaking drops I have been seeing in raid. STA + INT.. ooo. STA + INT + AGI!! OMG, now we are talking!! Cuz everyone knows how much agi helps the rangers since.. never. Here I been asking the devs to explain why all this fabled ranged gear has lost it's strength. Now, it makes perfect sense!! PVP RANGERS spec and are looking for HP gear!! I should have just asked you. 2) 80% DA for rangers: Please tell me you are lying. In PVE rangers have been very, very lucky in the past to get more than 8% DA from their aa's. Yes, even with an illusionist, the TOP I have ever seen is somewhere between 33 and 40% Please, please give us a hint where we can find buffs and gear that will give us 80% DA!! UNLESS you are specifically talking about PVP rangers. Even then.. wowo.. DEVS [Removed for Content] listen up.. PVE rangers WANT WANT WANT 80% DA buffed; Odawnus has now opened up our eyes and I want to know how to get spec'd/geared/buffed for 80% DA in PVE.This week I got a helm upgrade: I was tickled to death to see both strength and +5 to range crit on it. Last nite another scout helm dropped... almost duplicate stats except for effects. Get this: + 4 double attack and +4 melee crit. I thought to myself, why? What could possibly be so over powering about giving rangers the same stats as the scout melee gear?? Then a jerk like you comes here talking about getting maxed health spec'd and 80% DA buffed on PVP and it all makes sense.. not. Now I really have to know; what the heck is going on?? It is truly starting to sound like PVP rangers are in a sense 'overpowered', but, it is not AT ALL the same way on PVE. So, if you don't have a clue how bad it is; if you are not fighting dragons instead of each other; if you aren't being outparsed by illusionists, mages, and all the rest of the scouts .. then you need not post telling us how 'easy' it is to 'beat' other classes. I am not here to start a war between PVP and PVE, but, it really does appear, if what Odawnus says is all 'truths', that PVP rangers are overpowered and PVE rangers are seriously suffering from itemization, mechanics, at least 5 broken spells (Stream, Hawk, Surveil, Amazing Arrow and Coverage); procs from gear, player buffs and oh wait.. that wasn't enough.. let's strip procs off melee weapons too; cuz those rangers are just sooo overpowered!! Then, big, bad Odawnus pops his head in here and tells us to quit crying!! We just do not know how to play our class! Buahahaha. </blockquote>Wow, you truly read my post the entire wrong way. I have the exact same stuff you can get in game, im exile i dont get uber pvp items. For one when I said spec for hp I was talking about AA not gear also I was talking about how he was referring to all the post on the PVP boards like 2-3 months back about ranger being overpowered and one/two shotting people. Which was made by people that play dps spec'd and not spec'd for survivalibility. Which if you are a Wiz/War if you not spec'd for STA to get manashield then you will just be the fodder of the server. Also not like we raid in stupid groups but we have tried things out to see if they stack. Illusionary arm and double attack buffs do stack, so 2 illy's = 50%, 18% You can get from Eof and desceration bracelet, 8% from AA, 10% from bard, thats how easily u can get 80%, sure its not good raid setup but just try it out to see how you parse. If you think more DA will save our class well more power to you, but I on the other hand think its a much bigger picture than that. Assassins sure dont rely on DA to put out big numbers so why should we. L2Read cuz im pretty sure i was complaining about item procs, and melee weapons being useless other than for stats.

Lolianna

01-10-2008, 11:45 PM

I apologize Odawnus; I guess I did read your original post the wrong way. I honestly did not know that illusionists can stack their double attack buffs and bards.. those are those things that are in MT and ST groups for hate, right? Hehe <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Months and months of nerf after nerf and years of being subjected to the 'balancing' yo-yo have left me ready to strangle someone. I wish they could just get it in their heads where rangers should be vs no utility and paying for our damage; put us there and keep us there. I apologize again for lashing out at you. I do still see it as ironic that new gear is more STA related and PVP rangers go down HP lines and some of the various other ironies I noticed in your post.

Odawnus Haste

01-10-2008, 11:50 PM

DA is not a problem, what is a problem is jewelry procs, ammo, ca damage, utility and +range. All jewelry that procs off melee should proc off range dmg also. Ammo yea we all know so im not going to even get into it. CA damage is just horrible, range CA and melee CA are just the worst for any DPS class. For a class that basically relies on bow auto damage why isnt there more +range. If not +range add items with +hit% or add it to our buffs. I mean why not every other class can upgrade their CA's which is the bulk of their damage which also allows them to up the hit bonus. Right now you rely on DA because it ups your DPS a great amount, but im pretty sure if they would fix the others things you would be pretty satisfied without it.

Odawnus Haste

01-11-2008, 12:01 AM

<cite>Meerah@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I apologize Odawnus; I guess I did read your original post the wrong way. I honestly did not know that illusionists can stack their double attack buffs and bards.. those are those things that are in MT and ST groups for hate, right? Hehe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">. Months and months of nerf after nerf and years of being subjected to the 'balancing' yo-yo have left me ready to strangle someone. I wish they could just get it in their heads where rangers should be vs no utility and paying for our damage; put us there and keep us there. I apologize again for lashing out at you. I do still see it as ironic that new gear is more STA related and PVP rangers go down HP lines and some of the various other ironies I noticed in your post. </blockquote>As a ranger you dont really need to go down HP lines unless you lack it. If you have 6k hp at lvl 80 then you need more HP and have no room to complain if you get 2 shotted by people. Which people on pvp were complaining mostly mages that had like 4k hp complaining rangers are overpowered because double attack would 1 shot them basically. Which DA for the solo ranger is hard to come by, so it really just got blown out of hand by the people with the pitch forks just trying to get us nerfed. Which ended with focus aim being nerfed.

Krakelkr

01-11-2008, 03:50 AM

<cite>Odawnus Haste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odawnus Haste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP. PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE. To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]</blockquote>I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.</blockquote>They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.</blockquote>Perhaps I should have elaborated. The pvp ranger whines were largely about the autoattack damage and about how ranged autoattack was too powerful. Double attack and crit percentages were never a problem on pve servers AFAICT, ranged AA just isn't twice as effective as melee AA. For up-front burst dps in pvp it came close to being that, however. Of course with the new long delay melee weps that has changed on pvp too even if focus aim had never been taken out and the new pvp problem is going to be double melee crits for 3000+ damage :p What I was suggesting was that the itemization dev thinks ranged AA is twice as good as melee AA because of pvp whines. Or can you think of another reason for him to think that?</blockquote>Maybe because rangers have always had poor itemization i.e. Melee weapons only give us stats, 99% of the proc jewelry doesnt benefit us. Im still using T7 gear even tho I have T8 gear, the T7 gear just does more DPS. If people are crying about 3k+ autos then they need to gear up, you should have a good amount of hp now. Not every spec works for pvp, if you dont spec for HP then dont whine cause its your fault. DA is mostly luck in pvp unless you have an illusionist, if you a bard then you can up your chances a bit but its still nothing to rely on unless you have the Full EoF bonus. Most pvp fights last only a matter of seconds unless in group pvp. Stop acting like range DA isnt overpowered, have you ever buffed up to 80+ range DA? Well I have and its pretty ridiculous what kind of DPS you can pull even in RoK.[snip] </blockquote>I don't understand what you're saying, sorry. When you say ranged DA is overpowered, just above, do you mean in pve or pvp? You seem to be talking about pvp above yet argue that that dev nerfed ranged crit and DA on equipment because of pve? But ranged AA isn't twice as good as melee AA in pvp, is it?I'm a pvp ranger btw so no need to explain the pvp perspective. You won't see me complain about overpowered melee AA either. But I promise you the whiners will. (That's what the ':p' was supposed to indicate)

Lolianna

01-11-2008, 06:13 AM

Well, it looks as if those who predicted that things would be nerfed when they fix our broken arrow mechanics were correct. Aeralik finally responded in a post on eq2flames and stated that the ranger class is "far from bad off". He admitted bow mechanics were messed up (yeah he said bow, not arrows) and that there will be a coming fix, but, we should expect a "lateral shift" along with it. Looks as tho they will fix the arrows while getting out the 'ol rangers need more nerfing bat. I cannot say how deeply disappointing this is.

Odawnus Haste

01-11-2008, 06:38 AM

<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odawnus Haste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Odawnus Haste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Arrow mechanics didn't have a thing to do with PvP. PvP actually has a different ruleset than PvE. To date, noone has shown one nerf to PvE that had anything to do with PvP when it comes to rangers.[snip]</blockquote>I'm beginning to think that pvp is to blame for the halfing of ranged DA and crits compared to melee DA and crit on kunark equipment. I saw a post somewhere that quoted Fyreflyte saing that ranged AA is roughly twice as good as melee AA and that's why they halfed it. The only situation I can think of where that might be true would be for initial burst dps, i.e. pvp ambush.</blockquote>They already have their own nerfs for pvp, i.e. cannot cast focus aim in pvp combat. DA on pvp servers never has been a big problem. Most rangers here on Nagafen have like 10% if that. Then again most rangers here are poorly geared have crap for bows. So pvp is the last place you should look for the cause of a nerf. As a ranger on pvp you dont need to ambush or have 35+ meters on someone, the few great can start toe to toe, and not go far past the minimum to auto attack throught out the whole fight and win barely touched.</blockquote>Perhaps I should have elaborated. The pvp ranger whines were largely about the autoattack damage and about how ranged autoattack was too powerful. Double attack and crit percentages were never a problem on pve servers AFAICT, ranged AA just isn't twice as effective as melee AA. For up-front burst dps in pvp it came close to being that, however. Of course with the new long delay melee weps that has changed on pvp too even if focus aim had never been taken out and the new pvp problem is going to be double melee crits for 3000+ damage :p What I was suggesting was that the itemization dev thinks ranged AA is twice as good as melee AA because of pvp whines. Or can you think of another reason for him to think that?</blockquote>Maybe because rangers have always had poor itemization i.e. Melee weapons only give us stats, 99% of the proc jewelry doesnt benefit us. Im still using T7 gear even tho I have T8 gear, the T7 gear just does more DPS. If people are crying about 3k+ autos then they need to gear up, you should have a good amount of hp now. Not every spec works for pvp, if you dont spec for HP then dont whine cause its your fault. DA is mostly luck in pvp unless you have an illusionist, if you a bard then you can up your chances a bit but its still nothing to rely on unless you have the Full EoF bonus. Most pvp fights last only a matter of seconds unless in group pvp. Stop acting like range DA isnt overpowered, have you ever buffed up to 80+ range DA? Well I have and its pretty ridiculous what kind of DPS you can pull even in RoK.[snip] </blockquote>I don't understand what you're saying, sorry. When you say ranged DA is overpowered, just above, do you mean in pve or pvp? You seem to be talking about pvp above yet argue that that dev nerfed ranged crit and DA on equipment because of pve? But ranged AA isn't twice as good as melee AA in pvp, is it?I'm a pvp ranger btw so no need to explain the pvp perspective. You won't see me complain about overpowered melee AA either. But I promise you the whiners will. (That's what the ':p' was supposed to indicate)</blockquote>Its overpowered in the sense that it wasnt made to be relied on for dps. Ranger AA is the bulk of our damage, sure we wouldnt see it as a problem since it helps us out. Lets say DA worked the opposite way, instead of on AA it doubled attack on CAs, i.e. assassins could decap twice instead of once. This would be overpowered since the bulk of their damage comes from CAs. Since you play on pvp you probably remember the brigand pvp breastplate that added 800 damage to malicious assault, which when doubled up it would basically do like 4k damage. So people usually see rangers have double up but on a much larger scale, since we dont have to wait for cool downs we just have to wait another 3-4 seconds and wham another double up. So basically if we relied on CAs like most other classes then yes range DA would be the exact same as melee DA, but since our class is backwards compared to most of the other classes you have to realize why range DA is less common than melee DA. So in a way you can say rangers are the reason for there being more melee DA than range DA. Hopefully you can see what im getting at, but our class is just poorly designed and it needs a revamp instead of quick fixes here and there. I would consider adding more range DA just another quick fix. The day CoB and many other items and buffs help us out will be truly a great day for us rangers. Oh to answer your question about range AA being twice as good as melee AA in pvp? I would have to say it is but you wont really think so until you get a good bow, but even so other classes CAs are just as good when added with the time between auto attacks. I.E. I auto attack an assassin for 2k, when he could easily do 3k damage to me with one or two CAs before I can get another auto attack off.

Krakelkr

01-11-2008, 07:31 AM

<cite>Odawnus Haste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I don't understand what you're saying, sorry. When you say ranged DA is overpowered, just above, do you mean in pve or pvp? You seem to be talking about pvp above yet argue that that dev nerfed ranged crit and DA on equipment because of pve? But ranged AA isn't twice as good as melee AA in pvp, is it?I'm a pvp ranger btw so no need to explain the pvp perspective. You won't see me complain about overpowered melee AA either. But I promise you the whiners will. (That's what the ':p' was supposed to indicate)</blockquote>[snip] Oh to answer your question about range AA being twice as good as melee AA in pvp? I would have to say it is but you wont really think so until you get a good bow, but even so other classes CAs are just as good when added with the time between auto attacks. I.E. I auto attack an assassin for 2k, when he could easily do 3k damage to me with one or two CAs before I can get another auto attack off.</blockquote>Doh, I meant to write pve, not pvp. In pvp I would agree it's about twice as good, in fact, that was my original argument. I don't think it's nearly twice as good in pve.

Hexus

01-16-2008, 08:16 PM

I asked to have this post stickied in a couple of PM's, now I'll ask in the actual body of the post itself. Could we get this stickied? This post has more opinions and has probably had more hits and information in it than 60% of the ones already stickied.Thanks,Hexus

Cliff Browning

01-21-2008, 04:36 PM

I totally agree. It's really hard for a ranger to get raids because they bring nothing to the raid. Use to the only thing I could bring was being able target through the tank and pull or just get a glempse of a mob and then retreat to a safe place and pull, letting the tank peel it off me when it came into range, but sadly they took that away. About the only thing good now is that in Rok a lot of the mobs will stand back and cast and that's bad thing to do with a ranger in the group, lol.

LoreLady

01-22-2008, 02:15 AM

Basiccly what it boils down to, rouges are doing 2x our damage with melee only with medicore level 80 weapons. We are doing ~800-1kish damage with auto attack, others are easily reaching close to 2k, if not more. I dont see how we can be "shifted laterally" with these kinds of numbers. I can understand things being fine with our CA's currently. (I havent upgraded myself to fully adept 3, so I cant really compare myself yet in raids). But the numbers are showing up for themselves on where problems lie.. Personally, I am avoiding changing guilds to a "hardcore" guild because of these problems. I dont like to raid or play when these kinds of problems arise. I have raided on weekends lately, and when I have time off. But its not fun when your "literally" stuck using a level 68 bow.

Lolianna

01-22-2008, 10:33 AM

I got a Trueshot Bow a couple nites ago, woot! My hands were shaking I was so excited. My current RSB has 115 DR and Trueshot 125 DR and 3 haste!! Even tho my guild leaders know the state of the Ranger and about our broken arrow mechanics; they offered it to me first. Much <3. I took my shiny new bow home to Willowwood and mended myself. Using DT ammo (yeah tenderwood is better, but harder to get ahold of nowadays) I quickly did a /weapon on each to see what the 'true' damage would be. Hoping for the best and expecting the worst. The RSB's actual dmg, with my stats and DT ammo, was 786 - 2759. The Trueshot's was 545-1796. I wasn't entirely shocked, but, it saddened me. Placing my pretty new bow in my bags, where I can look at it and smile because I actually have a T8 fabled bow, I wasn't sure if I should cry or scream. It's been months and all we've had is some rude comment in Eq2flames from Aeralik about how 'these are the same broken mechanics rangers used last expansion when they were 'uber' and we didn't complain then'. What a bunch of BS. It's broken. Devs have know about it for months. Then Aeralik tries to 'shush' us with a thinly veiled threat about 'lateral shifts'. I think rangers have experienced enough 'lateral shifts' last expansion. Heck, I think we won the award for the 'class that was nerfed the most consecutive times' during last expansion. So many, in fact, we are now1-2k behind Swashies and Wizards in dps. Toss us a bone and at least give me an idea when I can take my pretty new bow out and it won't be 1k BELOW my RSB in 'actual damage'. Nope, nothing broken there. /Boggle.

fltengineer

01-26-2008, 03:57 AM

Now that more ranger T8 masters are showing up I have been comparing the damage of those to the T8 Ad3's and to say the least I am far from impressed. Almost every M1 spell I've seen only has a 150-200 dps increase over the AD3 version.Now here's the kicker, go to our brother the assassin and look at the differences between there AD3 spell damage and M1 spell damage. Most of their M1's have easily over 1k in extra damage. Dont even get me started on their Ear Shot spell.....a secondary ranged spell that has more damage than over half of our ranged spells, considering their melee dps'ers just seems a bit odd there.This trend seems to carry over for most of the dps classes, not had a chance to check them all tho.Why are we getting the shaft with not only broken arrow mech's but also our M1 spells are a joke of an upgrade over the AD3 versions.

Effidian

02-05-2008, 10:51 AM

Hexus,One other thing that should probably be listed in the first post is the lack of adornments for the primary and secondary slot that are beneficial to Rangers. Melee DPS classes get a very nice adornment to put on their ranged item for +DPS, but Rangers get no beneficial adornments for the primary and secondary slots.

Hexus

02-14-2008, 04:24 AM

I originally posted this December 5th 2007. It is now one of the biggest posts on the ranger Forums, and probably accounted for more hits than any of the other topics on this board. It is now February 14th and None of this has changed, and one can only assume that it is not planning on being changed due to Aeralik's response to this thread. It has been over 2 months, nothing has changed, no announcements of anything changing, no information from any developers or game designers of any kind. Can I assume that the ranger class at present represents your current vision and just cancel my account that I've had for over 10 years now, or can I get some kind of response as to what the plan of action is now since you've had over 2 months to plan? Patiently (Obviously) Waiting, -Hexus Lupis-

voxranger

02-14-2008, 10:21 AM

<cite>Hexus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I originally posted this December 5th 2007. It is now one of the biggest posts on the ranger Forums, and probably accounted for more hits than any of the other topics on this board. It is now February 14th and None of this has changed, and one can only assume that it is not planning on being changed due to Aeralik's response to this thread. It has been over 2 months, nothing has changed, no announcements of anything changing, no information from any developers or game designers of any kind. Can I assume that the ranger class at present represents your current vision and just cancel my account that I've had for over 10 years now, or can I get some kind of response as to what the plan of action is now since you've had over 2 months to plan? Patiently (Obviously) Waiting, -Hexus Lupis-</blockquote>I think its safe to say the developer's are clearly aware of the ranger problems, but believe the fixes to the ranger class to be broad and complex. However, despite all this, SOE still views the ranger as a powerful, competent class, so there is no sense of urgency in addressing ranger issues.Many of us are not having fun playing our characters this way. Some are betraying to assasin, some are cancelling, and some like myself, are basically shelving thier ranger and playing an alt until the rangers issues are addressed (I'm still playing him some, but its mostly to help guildies, harverst, and pvp a little). Still, many players are pressing forward with thier rangers anyway.At this point, its pretty clear there is little we can do to stimulate a corrective response pattern from SOE, so I guess we all just need to decide what were gonna do, accept the reality of the situation, and move on in what ever way we see fit.

Guard_Ra

02-14-2008, 02:22 PM

As i have thought about betraying, but i just can't give up my Ranger. I still believe they'll fix the mechanics in one of these LU's, so I will continue to plug along.

guillero

02-25-2008, 12:36 PM

Bows and arrows and their damage should be completely revisited.For once how Blizzard did with the Hunter class is a good example of how you can do it right.1. Bow's damage indication is base damage without any arrow.2. Standard arrows should be available on vendors. Standard arrows add slight damage buff only.3. Crafters can create better arrows. These arrows add better damage buffs and maybe some recast speed buff as well or something.4. arrows should be per 10 levels or so. lvl1, lvl10, lvl20, lvl30, lvl40, etc. Increasing their effectiveness slightly each 10lvl pump. Crafted arrows effectiveness becomes progressivly better each 10lvl pumps to make crafters happy too.This should fix all the confusion and bow/arrow issues and make the whole thing a lot more transparent. Just a better system in my eyes.

xandez

02-26-2008, 06:40 AM

<cite>Jeronas@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bows and arrows and their damage should be completely revisited.For once how Blizzard did with the Hunter class is a good example of how you can do it right.1. Bow's damage indication is base damage without any arrow.2. Standard arrows should be available on vendors. Standard arrows add slight damage buff only.3. Crafters can create better arrows. These arrows add better damage buffs and maybe some recast speed buff as well or something.4. arrows should be per 10 levels or so. lvl1, lvl10, lvl20, lvl30, lvl40, etc. Increasing their effectiveness slightly each 10lvl pump. Crafted arrows effectiveness becomes progressivly better each 10lvl pumps to make crafters happy too.This should fix all the confusion and bow/arrow issues and make the whole thing a lot more transparent. Just a better system in my eyes.</blockquote>QFEagreed, sounds good++Xan