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View Full Version : An alternative for level cap raise?


Tash 1
10-22-2007, 03:58 AM
<p>Soon we have 10 more levels and i know many are looking forward to this. Many feel that they have reached the end of the game and want new challenging and new content.</p><p>I agree in this and the game has to develop in order to survive. But I for one feel that the new 10 is a bad idea as every level cap in fact.</p><p>Reason for this is that old content zones will be deserted wasting a lot of money and time invested into these. The player base will be spread thin over 80 levels making it very hard to find groups or to play with your friends if you level on uneven basis. The months before a new level raise most things seem to die out while ppl don't want to waist time getting items that soon will be of non worth since the treasure upgrade most likely will be just as good as the old legendary.</p><p>But we have to move forward right? And if we don't raise level cap the game will die right?Maybe I am just a player but maybe the level cap could be raised in a different matter?</p><p>Why not let ppl have a secondary profession just as they have in some other games. So when you reach max level you can start your second profession. And maybe be a level 70 berzerker/ level 30 Fury. I know there will be much to think about spell casters in plate might be really though but on the other hand a level 100 player is probably worse than a level 70+30 player anyway one look at it.</p><p>The positive things with this system would be that.No zones would be obsolete and new zones would be for all players not just the end cap players. It would still let players feel "uber" a level 70 Guardian / 70 Wizard would be most awesome to see.It would greatly boost the players solo capabilities but at the same time have them well in level range with most players so grouping would still be an option. It would let people take different roles in groups as well as in raids and maybe cure some of the issues that some classes never seem to be around when you need them.</p><p>So what do you think? isn't this a option versus the ever increasing level cap? </p><p>/Hugs Tash</p>

Tarlok
10-22-2007, 04:16 AM
<p>Its not the content but the loot tables in new zones that make them useless.  Take relic gear now, my 70 has none and will never have any.  Its quite honestly crap gear compared to the drops from eof zones.  RoK will be the same way though I will probably with luck have a nice set of eof if I start working now to get it.  I am only going for the EoF set gear so I can be geard to get my foot in the door on RoK raid content.</p><p>Its itemization that kills off the old zones not higher levels or outdated content.  The level 70 EoF raid zones will still be popular though as even at 80 the end bosses will con green and drop their loot.  Now if Sony does RoK right the new gear won't be as huge of a gap as we have with relic and curent set gear.</p><p> Your idea has a some merit to it though.  I don't ever see a dual class system in eq2 or any eq game ever happening.  That is more the realm of d&d and I can tell you from experience its difficult to balance.  SWG has shown this also.</p><p>As to the player base being spread thin, I don't think it will be a huge issue as folks will burn through RoK, hit 80, gear out, and then its back to making alts or crafters.  Alts keep the player base evenly distributed to a good extent.</p>

Sapphirius
10-22-2007, 11:16 AM
<p>I don't think this is a very good idea. Sorry, but I feel being a dual class will disrupt the balance too much. Suddenly, you can be your own tank <i>and</i> healer? Then you would never have to worry about finding a group. If people can be self-sufficient, they will. You might as well turn EQ2 into a console game if you do this. What's more is that people will rush through the dual class to end game, and then you're back to square one, which would be all the lower level zones are deserted.</p><p>Is the older content not seeing much use? No, it's not, and I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the loot or the rewards because the newbie EOF areas are every bit as deserted as the newbie content in the old world. I feel it's more the <i>age</i> of the game that is the primary factor. You will find that newbie zones see less and less use as the game gets older, and this is true in every MMORPG. Go to an older server on WOW (not the newly opened ones). The newbie zones there, even in blood elf and draenei lands, are as deserted as you describe them here. Why? Because people have already seen it. They want something more. That is the nature of MMORPGs. They are dynamic, <i>constantly</i> changing and growing or shrinking (depending on the game and its success).</p><p>In other words, that's simply the nature of the beast. Introducing a dual class concept is simply slapping a bandaid on a gaping wound gushing blood. It's not going to solve anything. It is, at best, a temporary fix, and one that will have disastrous ramifications for the game.</p>

Saxy
10-22-2007, 11:31 AM
i have to agree with you on the level cap being raised. I personly think they are raising it a bit fast. They should be adding more Achivements and other things every other expansion. I know everyone gets bored at 70 but if you had more choices of achivements to get or mabey they should start thinking about some of the eq expansions like dungeons of norrath and dragons of noratth those added some cool things i would love myself to see things like that come to eq 2 i loved doing the dungeons for those shards for gear upgrades augs ect.. But i dont think the dual class thing would work at all if you could choose  like that you could prety much make your self invincible agaisnt standard or even dungeon type mobs.

interstellarmatter
10-22-2007, 11:41 AM
<p>I think that they should only have raised it by 5 levels.</p><p>At 5 levels, you still leave much of EoF content viable for groups at 75 (Unrest, Nizara, CMM, etc.).  Many of the old raid zones wouldn't be trivalized.  In fact, the top end EoF raid stuff could actually be done by the casual raid guilds while there would be newer raid zones designed around 75.</p><p>At 80, you are writing off too much content.  Unless they want to take the WoW approach.  Have a heroic instance of the EoF zones.  Basically, if you go run CoB, you would get a choice of regular or heroic.  Heroic would be have the mobs up in hit points and loot for a group of lvl 80s.</p>

Effie
10-22-2007, 03:18 PM
<p>Classes are hard enough to balance without multi-classing...</p><p>A brig/wiz would be sick!</p>

Odalia
10-22-2007, 03:26 PM
<p>I do not feel that the content will be left behind, I am in a fairly large guild that raids only twice per week, we just recently cleared labs not because we are bad players but because we just got a  real core group of people that raid almost every time we have one that are now lvl 70. We have a long way to go and even at lvl 80 I doubt we will just bypass EoF because we can go to RoK, I know there has to be other guilds like mine.</p>

Kordran
10-22-2007, 03:39 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think that they should only have raised it by 5 levels.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is, the fundamental design of the game is for 10 level tiers. I suspect that what you're asking for would require a significant change to a lot of the underlying mechanics of how the game works, or you're asking them to generate 10 levels of items, spells, etc. but only make 5 levels available a time, doing twice the work for half the "bang" so to speak. Neither of those seem particularly appealing.</p><p>Multi-classing is just a bad idea. It would effectively trivialize a lot of content by making classes exponentially stronger (and if it didn't make them stronger, why would anyone do it). This sort of thing would be taken to the limits by the min-maxers and any kind of class balance would be thrown out the window. In an ideal world, it could be fun. In the real, practical world with issues of content and class balance, it would make a mess. Or to paraphrase what a dev said when about asking for new classes, the same should apply here: let them add multi-classing when all 24 classes are perfectly balanced.</p><p>Tarlok is spot on. The reason that old content isn't being "consumed" by players has nothing to do with the level cap. We all have to find some way to get from level 1 to 80. The problem is, the itemization in the old world (including those zones which have been "revamped", like Nektulos Forest) is poor compared to the newer zones. If you want to create a new evil character, even if you decide you'd want to start in Freeport, the very first thing you'll do (if you're smart) is run up to Darklight Woods and run through all of the quests there. Why? Because the itemization and quests in CL, quite frankly, sucks in comparison. The quests have you running all over the zone for paltry rewards. Some of the story lines are fun and interesting to read, but the net benefit in terms of loot and experience are just pathetic compared to what you'll get in DW. The same on the good side. Antonica is a wasteland because GFay is just a much more rewarding place to play.</p><p>As for higher level instances and so on, then yes, they would need to have "heroic" instances scaled to level 80 if they wanted to keep those viable at cap. Similar to along the lines to what they did with Nek Castle. But then it always comes down to the tadeoff. Do developers spend their time simply redoing old zones to bring them "up to par", or do they focus on the new content that brings in expansion dollars? And with their focus on what I call "nostalgia expansions" that are obviously big crowd pleasers and bringing a lot of old EQ1 folks back into the fold, that choice is pretty easy for them to make. It also is the "push" to get people to buy those expansions. Want all that nifty new gear? Those cool new spells? Those fun new mounts? No problem, just open your wallet. New zones allow them to do that. Revamping old zones does not.</p>

Tash 1
10-23-2007, 03:35 AM
<p>It might very well be that this is not a good idea with dual classes but the arguments so far haven't convinced me.</p><p>- If player can play both tank and healer they never will need to find groups. If players don't want to group that their own loss I think. An on the other hand if you can play both the role of a tank and the role of a healer it would increase the amount of available tanks and healers and what's wrong with that?</p><p>- If players can play dual classes they will be so powerful that old content will be obsolete.True in some amount but not entirely. A duo with a healer and a tank will always be more powerful than a single player that can play both tank and healer. Very easy to see.And a dual class at level 70 will still have a challenge against T7 -zones. A level 80 player on the other hand will have not.So a dual class make the current zones live longer than a level cap raise.</p><p>- Players will grind through the dual class and we are back to square 1.Players will always grind but grinding to level 70/70 would be equal to grinding to level 140. And that will take much longer than to grind to level 80.Further more I think players should be given the choice to reset the second class so they can try out different classes. This will further add to the durability of the game.</p><p>- Dual classes are to hard to balance its hard enough to balance as it is.I hope that this argument is not true. If so that would be as that SOE don't have the competence and skill to implement something like this. I think that it would be hard and probably take long time of tweaking but I think they could do it. Its their job and I think they are rather good at it.</p><p>- There is no problem really old content still used.Well that's not my impression. When where the last time a guild did raid A deserted mines?All of the DoF raidzones are empty and deserted except when a guild start to grind . They will be event more abandon when they grey out at level 70+And when the level cap is raised so is the speed of how fast people levels. people spread in many levels will make it harder to find groups and in order to let people level fast the old zones have to be made solo content with great exp boost. People level so fast that they outgrow equipment so fast there is no use to keep on top of the gear list anyway. And why should one since the opponent's have been nerfed to be soloable. Would anyone seriously buy a level 1-50 master?? Well if they throw them away maybe. But at the speed people levels now Dof raidzones will be outgrown between the lockout.</p><p>To be honest I know Eq2 will never be a dual class game. Its to late for that now. But I just want to raise the thought. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>/Tash</p>

dhvyse000
10-23-2007, 11:47 AM
This problem would go away if they slightly revamped old zones and also revamped the quest rewards etc.  The newer content almost always has better quest rewards, better xp, better AA, better items.  That's the main reason the older zones get "phased out".

Kaycerzan
10-23-2007, 09:54 PM
Multiclassing would never work in a game like this where skill directly affects accuracy, resistability, etc... a 70/30 character would be utterly useless in the endgame, due to their skill caps... either that or you would have to permit them to still raise their skills to the par for Lv. 100, and they would be insanely powerful.  Players will continue to group or not group as they see fit. The population will not be spread thin, because the largest portion of the population will still group in the areas known to provide the best loot or exp or quests, and those that aren't will have the same issues they find they have getting groups today.   Fact is as the population ages and new content is put out, zone populations will wither and die anyway.  Right now Ant / CL are all but forgotten because of Gfay and Darklight. Soon, those will be forgotten in favor of the newbie zone in Kunark ... that is, when they're even bothered to be used. Anything that's not KoS / EoF right now is long since forgotten because it's grey, or because there isn't enough population of that level to bother going there.

TheSpin
10-23-2007, 10:05 PM
<p>I think it's definately time for the level cap to go up so I have to disagree with you there.  I would be all for upping the difficulty on some older stuff, especially dof stuff so that it didn't grey out though.</p><p>As for your multiclassing idea I think it has some merit, but I don't think exactly multiclassing is the way to go about it.  I would say it would be better to give some alternate advancement lines that could drastically change your character to incorporate abilities another class might have.  For instance a Ranger could choose to further their ability with the bow, pick up a few divine spells or pick up some arcane abilities.  Depending on the route they went maybe they'd have to adopt lighter armor to use these skills.  I guess my idea goes more along the lines of prestige classes in D&D rather than multiclassing.</p>

Willias
10-24-2007, 03:00 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personly think they are raising it a bit fast.</blockquote>It's been well over a year and a half since the level cap was last raised.Anyway, I think the whole "oh no the old content is going to go to waste!" problem is solved by the fact that as players gain levels, they tend to go back to older areas to get easy loot or exp when the mobs in said areas stop being too much of a challenge.  Non-raid players will get their chance to see things that the raid crowd only managed to see before due to everything becoming weaker, and the raid crews get to see new stuff themselves in the new content for level 80s.It's all good.Edit:  And I think the multiclassing idea is ridiculous.  It'd be insanely hard to balance if you made multiclassing worthwhile, and I really don't see how it'd be much different than increasing the level cap.

Skylher
10-24-2007, 09:43 AM
<p>the only reason i am looking forward to RoK is the leveling. New levels means new spells to find, new crafting items to make and new ways to make PP. its not hard to make plat though, but its nice to be able to make new stuff and advertise your services. rarely do i see anyone advertise they are looking for work any more. No levels would me at least 2.5 years of being lvl 70... no thanks.</p><p>i am completely bored to tears as it is, and only really play on raid days now. at least i will have something different to do for a while. If there wasn't level 80 i would not even bother with purchasing RoK.  I would in fact probably cancel my subscription.</p><p>you could argue that the new spells and crafting items are just the same stuff from past levels but with different numbers and you are probably right. But at least its a reason to go out and harvest/hunt. About the only thing right now that sells fast on the broker is potions/poisions and shiny's. Everyone else pretty much has all their masters, houses fully furnished, gear better than crafted etc... so crafters pretty much are at a dead end. </p>

Karlen
10-24-2007, 11:08 AM
I am quite happy that the maximum level is increasing.   My two characters have reached levels 68 and 69 and are ready to start in on level 70+ content. 

LordPazuzu
10-24-2007, 05:02 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Soon we have 10 more levels and i know many are looking forward to this. Many feel that they have reached the end of the game and want new challenging and new content.</p><p>I agree in this and the game has to develop in order to survive. But I for one feel that the new 10 is a bad idea as every level cap in fact.</p><p>Reason for this is that old content zones will be deserted wasting a lot of money and time invested into these. The player base will be spread thin over 80 levels making it very hard to find groups or to play with your friends if you level on uneven basis. The months before a new level raise most things seem to die out while ppl don't want to waist time getting items that soon will be of non worth since the treasure upgrade most likely will be just as good as the old legendary.</p><p>But we have to move forward right? And if we don't raise level cap the game will die right?Maybe I am just a player but maybe the level cap could be raised in a different matter?</p><p>Why not let ppl have a secondary profession just as they have in some other games. So when you reach max level you can start your second profession. And maybe be a level 70 berzerker/ level 30 Fury. I know there will be much to think about spell casters in plate might be really though but on the other hand a level 100 player is probably worse than a level 70+30 player anyway one look at it.</p><p>The positive things with this system would be that.No zones would be obsolete and new zones would be for all players not just the end cap players. It would still let players feel "uber" a level 70 Guardian / 70 Wizard would be most awesome to see.It would greatly boost the players solo capabilities but at the same time have them well in level range with most players so grouping would still be an option. It would let people take different roles in groups as well as in raids and maybe cure some of the issues that some classes never seem to be around when you need them.</p><p>So what do you think? isn't this a option versus the ever increasing level cap? </p><p>/Hugs Tash</p></blockquote>Something tells me that at this point it's too late for you to change their minds.

Tomanak
10-24-2007, 06:33 PM
<p>I already run a tank/healer..its called 2 boxing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Do agree though, to allow such a hybrid would cause havoc with game balance and cause the masses of discontent to rise up even more than they do now. Perhaps if you were still restricted to 70 levels and had to decide how to proportion your skills..but still I think this too inbalancing. </p><p>While I know some seem to disagree, the fact is that it has been a while since the last level cap raise and its time for another. What they should do (IMO) is lower the leveling rate for these 10 levels (and 40 AAs) so that when the 'bulk' of the population (you will always have those early levelers) reaches 80/140, they are ready to release their next expansion. </p><p>Raising the level cap does not trivilize the earlier zones any more than the majority of the population sitting at cap for years, getting fed up and moving on to other things. </p><p>People can sit still for only so long with minimal upgrading of their toons before giving up. </p>

ke'la
10-24-2007, 07:29 PM
<p>IMO instead of multi-classing (wich really would not work for this game) as an alteritive to raising the lvl cap in the next expaintion, I think they should add in Secondary Adventure Classes(much like Transmuting and Tinkering) these classes would have absolutly no direct effect on your ablity to Adventure, but would be a new way to grow your caractor though a new type of adventuring.</p><p>My sugjestion for that new type of adventuring is Sea Fairing. Basicly you can get your own ship and sail the high seas, You can set them up kinda like the ships in SWG, where you have fast, highly manuverable, but lightly armed and armored ships, Ballanced ships that have Med armor, Med Damage, med Speed and Manuverablity, and Heavy ships that do alot of damage(and have good armor)  but manuver like a beached Whale. Ofcourse for manuverablity to play a roll you would have to make it so you can only attack from certain angles off the ship. I think adding this in with the equivilant of say Looping, Lfay, and Steamfont's content for lvl capped adventurers(You can be a Sea Fairer from 1 to SF Cap without adventuring at all(though it may make it harder)) plus MAYBE a new Race and starting area, and possably a new AA Tree. Would keep everyone occupied for a full expaintion cycle.</p>

Lasai
10-24-2007, 07:36 PM
<p>I played SWG from launch, with the original Skillpoint based system allowing an incredible variety of character builds.  It did make the game fun for most, and I would say most didn't abuse it.   However, it was also a PvP game, and they never, ever achieved balance with it.  The second something got "balanced" there was a new FOTM template already in the works, people played test just to keep ahead of the balancing curve.</p><p>Its too bad, but when you allow Hybrid/Skillset Templates, some just tend towards the Godlike, and soon become nearly universal.  The fact that a SWG player could become a self contained group pushed the game into the most solo-centric MMO I've ever seen.</p><p>Even PvE this caused issues. They could not keep up with Player templates, and eventually did a bandaid fix of just dumping incredible amounts of HP on "boss" mobs.  Still, there were hybrid templates who regularly soloed and farmed boss type mobs with 350k hp.  Given that they adjusted the mobs up to deal with the "God" templates, people that didn't have one quickly did, just to compete.</p><p>I miss some of the Hybrid characters I had, but I tended to the Dancer/Ch or Carbineer/Ranger things, stuff I enjoyed.  I honestly think now that AA customization is the only way to go.  People are far too inventive and clever to allow hybrid/skillset templates and still maintain balance in a game.</p><p>People forget that even in PvE, the game has to have balance.  If one Hybrid Profession is too powerful, they trivialize the content.  If they toughen the content to deal with the God Templates, ever other character suffers.  It just doesnt work.  SWG proved that.</p>

dhvyse000
10-25-2007, 12:03 PM
My favorite suggestion to something else to do besides raising the cap is this.Each class gets another AA line.  These AA lines are seperate from the other AA xp.  Let's call this AA line an Epic AA line.  It will require getting Epic AA XP from raiding.  This Epic AA XP can only be optained from Epic AA questing.  There are 2-3 lines of Epic AAs to go down, but you can only choose one.   There are only 5-10 levels or so(to be worked out) of Epic AA.  These lines grant you SPELLS that let you further define your class to your liking.  You can only start to get epic AA at top level.  These spells are considered the top for your class.Lets take a look at how a Fury(or Druid) Epic AA line would be.  The first line is a healing line.   They'd recieve better healing spells and better group healing spells.  While another tree would consist of more damage spells, and another line for buffs and debuffs.  Theses should all only be obtainable by small raids.  I'm talking 2 groups.  All Epic x2 stuff.  Epix X4 would be a little much IMO.Just a start, but would be a nice step towards every class of the same type playing a little differently towards end level.

Effie
10-25-2007, 12:11 PM
<cite>dhvyse000 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My favorite suggestion to something else to do besides raising the cap is this.Each class gets another AA line.  These AA lines are seperate from the other AA xp.  Let's call this AA line an Epic AA line.  It will require getting Epic AA XP from raiding.  This Epic AA XP can only be optained from Epic AA questing.  There are 2-3 lines of Epic AAs to go down, but you can only choose one.   There are only 5-10 levels or so(to be worked out) of Epic AA.  These lines grant you SPELLS that let you further define your class to your liking.  You can only start to get epic AA at top level.  These spells are considered the top for your class.Lets take a look at how a Fury(or Druid) Epic AA line would be.  The first line is a healing line.   They'd recieve better healing spells and better group healing spells.  While another tree would consist of more damage spells, and another line for buffs and debuffs.  Theses should all only be obtainable by small raids.  I'm talking 2 groups.  All Epic x2 stuff.  Epix X4 would be a little much IMO.Just a start, but would be a nice step towards every class of the same type playing a little differently towards end level.</blockquote><p>Hey that's a pretty cool idea.</p><p>I also think that the group/raid leadership skills they had in EQ were pretty cool and wouldn't mind seeing them implemented in some way, shape or form in EQ2.</p>