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View Full Version : What, exactly, did [insert random accomplishment] used to mean?


Lodrelhai
10-19-2007, 10:27 PM
I see this statement every time mobs are nerfed, quests are simplified, or zones are made easier.  Guild levels, tradeskill levels, having a nifty piece of equipment - "It used to mean something!"  My question is - what?Your name or guild in a world announcement?A cool look, ability, or mount?Boasting rights?I'm being perfectly honest, I don't see what any of this 'means' beyond a momentary thrill.  And I don't see how the thrill is diminished by someone else - or even everyone else - getting there too.  World announcements are forgotten by everyone who sees them 2 minutes or less after they go up.  The fact that my fury friend can boost group runspeed 100% for a short time doesn't mean my dirge runs any slower normally.  And honestly, anyone who boasts more than "Woohoo!  I did it!" when they make whatever accomplishment usually ends up on my ignore list really quick.There's not a single in-game accomplishment anyone can make which will prevent me from making the same accomplishment without the world-wide announcement, with the extremely rare exception of GM-run live events which sometimes have one-per-server item rewards.  There's not a single in-game accomplishment I can make that will help me get a raise or promotion, pay my bills, or make my life happier or more fulfilled (unless I'm aiming for a Dev position and am trying to establish a reputation for community involvement).Yes, I enjoy telling the newer players in my guild, "When I did that quest, I had to get 100 of each harvest, and you only got 1 item per success, and the harvest node despawned after 3 attempts whether you successfully harvested or not!"  But I also find Dwarven Workboots much more fun now than I did when I first tried it on my main.  The only the thing it "means" to me when they simplify some quest that used to be insanely difficult is I've got another "back in the day" story to horrify the newbies with.  Which is a lot more fun than actually living through the horror story was.So tell me honestly, what did some simplified accomplishment used to mean to you, and what is it about that accomplishment being easier now that takes away from your own sense of achievement?

Megera
10-19-2007, 10:47 PM
heh. the tradeskilling accomplishment of the old days?  lets try 'filling your inventory with stacks and stacks and STACKS of crud because you needed several peices to make each piece and you needed several pieces to make THAT piece too....I do not miss the inventory nightmare.  I do not miss the endless hope that so and so, the guild alchemist, would be done with finals soon so she could make 100 stacks of worts the rest of us would go through in an afternoon.  I do not miss having my own alchemist level up making *other* people's emergency worts because the main one was busy and the other ts-ers caught me on and asked nicely.  I do not miss having to get a huge group(s) to take out some of the various critters needed for this or that non-epic quest.I'll tell you what [insert random accomplishment] used to mean ...or rather what it means now.It means people looking for a reason to gripe about how they *used* to be someone and aren't now ...have one. Let em rant.  just don't 'fix' tradeskilling back to needing subcombines.  that suuuucked so hard you could vacuum the dungeons with it.

Haapy
10-20-2007, 01:21 AM
<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see this statement every time mobs are nerfed, quests are simplified, or zones are made easier.  Guild levels, tradeskill levels, having a nifty piece of equipment - "It used to mean something!"  My question is - what?So tell me honestly, what did some simplified accomplishment used to mean to you, and what is it about that accomplishment being easier now that takes away from your own sense of achievement?</blockquote>It means that people who used to do much harder versions of zones and quest often had to have more skill, focus and tenacity. I look at people that used to run pre-Nerf Nizara in non-raid gear and know for a fact that they have skills, and there is no non-epic content that they could not do. I really believe that there should be some insanely hard content only doable by 10% of population. Not by gear, but by skill and tenacity. My perfect idea of an instance would be something like Harclave, where your group zones in and everyone is dressed into pre-set standardized gear, all spell set to master and the instance is an absolute killer unless you on your A-game every second. Yeah, I'd like that, so no one says "well, they are raiders, in fabled". I think quests, zones, all content should be in 3 difficulty modes: easy, medium and hard. And when I say 3 modes, I do not mean that you can select the mode for a given zone, just there are some places you are not good enough to tread. And no, just because you paying same money to SoE does not mean you entitled to all rewards, just means that they are available should you try hard enough.Every quest, mob, instance in MMOs is a timesink between you and the top-most gear, level, ability. Thats all they are, you spend time - you get level, you spend time - you get gear. The more time you spend - more levels and gear you get. By making things easier and easier, timesinks are getting shorter and shorter between lvl 1 player logging on for the first time and lvl 70 fully-geared top raider.  And while I agree, timesinks need to  be managed,  completely getting rid of them would be no different than  putting all items into /claim and instituting /level command. There is a good balance to be maintained, and all of us perceive it differently. But when it takes only 4 months to hit 70/100, with claymore, SoD, as well as full set of relic, well...No, it does not take aways anything from me when content is being made easier and easier, except the PuGs seem to be getting worse and worse. Before anyone says "then group with guildmates", It should be because guildmates are friends, not because that is the only way to guarantee skill.To throw your question back to you, would it really be bad if you could have an additional option for buying avatar loot off a city merchant, in addition of dropping from some of the hardest raid mobs in game? Would /level really take away something from your accomplishments? You could be telling horror stories to your guildmates about how it took 2 months to hit 70 before.

Lodrelhai
10-20-2007, 05:17 AM
<cite>Haapy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite>To throw your question back to you, would it really be bad if you could have an additional option for buying avatar loot off a city merchant, in addition of dropping from some of the hardest raid mobs in game? Would /level really take away something from your accomplishments? You could be telling horror stories to your guildmates about how it took 2 months to hit 70 before.</blockquote>Actually, I've been playing since a month after launch and barely hit 70 on my first character a little over a month ago.  I am a very, very, VERY casual player.  (Just don't ask how many alts I have made/deleted/remade/currently play...)To me, personally, it wouldn't make one bit of difference if they were selling avatar loot off a city merchant for 5c each - it's not going to change much about how I play or what I do.  If I can solo the content, I solo it.  If it's too tough for me to solo, I ask my guildies if anyone else is interested.  If it's something I can't do even with my guild *coughCauldronHollowcough*, I wait until it's grey enough for us to do solo or as a single group.  I've gotten some really nice quest rewards, and by the time I get most of them, they're 5-10 levels below my current gear I bought.  And that's fine with me.  I accomplished the quest the way I wanted to, and had fun doing it.  If someone else walked into Cauldron Hollow at level 30 with only a single group all the same level and one healer and managed it, more power to them.  I acknowledge they have the skills to do something I cannot.  If they decide to revamp CH as a heroic zone so my SK actually has a chance of finishing Ghoulbane at level, I'll be happy to get it for her.  If not, my dirge will be my only char with that HQ completed - CH is not a good time in my book, and I won't bother with it unless a guildie asks for my help.  In which case, I'll grab my main and mentor if needed.The PUG issues I'm not so familiar with, because I mostly don't do them.  I can see your stance on that though - if a zone is incredibly tough with epic content and takes a great deal of coordination and skill to complete, odds are the person with gear from that zone is a highly talented player.  That's a valid point, and one I can see being a concern for people who play more aggressively than I do (obviously, that's not hard).  It's an issue I've never considered because most of the time I buy, craft, or commission my gear.  And if someone doesn't want me in their group because my gear isn't up to spec, that's their choice and I'll go do something else.Your comment about scaling content actually brings to mind something I wish they'd do with a lot of content in this game - technically, it'd be exactly what you don't want, but they do it in City of Heroes and I like how it works.  Instances scale to your group size and difficulty settings - you can set yourself to high difficulty, and although the quests (missions) you get are the exact same ones as anyone else your level, the instances are much tougher and the xp and rewards scale higher.  Of course, CoH doesn't have equipment, just enhancements you can use to strengthen your abilities, and inspirations which are basically one-use buffs.  Still, I'd like to see this done with some quests (including HQs).  If you pick the solo version, upon completion you get 1/3 the normal status and a certificate of completion.  Pick the Heroic version, you get full status and the furniture version of the HQ reward (I am such a furniture hog).  Pick Epic, you get double status and current version of the reward, usable as equipment or furniture.  Or make the heroic version the standard and the epic version an ultra-powered version of it - the Fabled Ghoulbane instead of the Legendary Ghoulbane.  I heard this is how epic weapons will be in RoK - you can solo and group to a perfectly usable version of your epic weapon, but if you want the full power of it, you have to raid.  That, to me, makes perfect sense.I guess, to me, part of it is that the gear is irrelevant to the accomplishment.  I don't want people getting raid-quality gear from solo or heroic content - that's pure nonsense.  I just want to play through the content and have fun doing it, and scaling the content down just makes that more likely.  Trust me, after I did dwarven workboots or shiney brass halberd the first time, I swore never again.  The harvests, the endless kills, clearing mobs for hours in the vain hope of triggering the ring event... they weren't fun.  Now they're fun, and I'll happily run all my characters through them whether they can use the rewards or not.  (Okay, BT and caveroot are still a bit of a pain to spawn, but workboots is much more enjoyable without having to spend days strip mining Antonica - I hated that quest before I even finished the first step.)  I don't resent the fact that my friend who started playing EQ2 just last May only had to pick up 15 harvests, anymore than I resent that he's taken 5 months to get his main to level 50 - something that took me two years.  His playstyle is different, the game is different, and he's obviously enjoying himself immensely.  As long as that last is true, he can hit lvl 80 before I hit lvl 71 and I'll head up the cheering squad when he does.  And he'll head the cheering squad when i finally make it - the fact that one of us gets there faster/easier does not in any way affect that sooner or later, we will both get there.Sorry for the lengthy ramble.  Just... accomplishment to me in this game is being able to experience all the incredible content the devs work so hard to put in here.  I've never understood the call to make it so these things can only be enjoyed by the few who have the time/drive/natural talent to become the top 10 elite.  I want to see the incredible vistas, hear the roar of dragons, experience the stories.  Limiting that... to me that's like discovering the work of a talented artist, buying every single print and copy of their work you can find, and destroying them so only a relatively small number of people can say they've seen it.  Isn't the whole point of creating things so they can be shared and enjoyed?

TuinalOfTheNexus
10-20-2007, 06:02 AM
<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've never understood the call to make it so these things can only be enjoyed by the few who have the time/drive/natural talent to become the top 10 elite.</p></blockquote><p>It's never been that content in EQ2 is so restricted that only the top 10 elite get to <i>see</i> it. Yes, contested are farmed by one guild on every server, but you can still see them if you really want to.</p><p>If you're referring to seeing the inside of high level raid instances - well this is why many people raid. To see Lord Vyemm or Wuoshi for the first time; or explore the inside of MMIS. You're saying loot is irrelevant, yet assuming all raiders are loot-obsessed. If you could click a solo instance and see the whole zone, the accomplishment and feel of grandeur in these places would be vastly diminished.</p><p>I also don't get why you're so quick to assume this content is completely beyond you. On any server KoS pickup raids are incredibly common, and I suspect with a level 80 cap, EoF raids will become pickup content too (much like Courts now). Labs already only needs one group, and at level 80 it'll probably only take 3 people to clear. By creating this mental block that puts raid content beyond you, you're effectively restricting the content you experience all by yourself, through no fault of the game design.</p>

Lodrelhai
10-20-2007, 07:30 AM
Actually, being able to see the inside of MMIS or the New Tunaria Throne Room by clicking on a solo instance version would be my ideal.  I just want to see it, really!  Be able to poke in all the corners and climb up that wall by jumping from one vantage point to another.  Make it so all the mobs are non-attackable, that's fine.  I hold my guild's unofficial record for stupid deaths because if I'm wandering through a zone and see a contested epic who will eat me for lunch, I will strip off all my gear and charge for it, hoping to die in a spot where I'll have a good view for a screenshot.  I meant what I said about doing a lot of content after it's grey.And I'm not assuming raiders are loot-obsessed, nor that raiding is beyond me.  I regularly take part in a weekly Courts raid hosted by another guild, and have joined pickup raids for Freethinkers and other zones.  It's not a regular or driving part of my gameplay, but I enjoy doing it when the opportunity arises.But when was the last time you saw a pickup group for Nek 2 or Nek 3?  Nek 2 is widely reported as having poor loot for the level.  Several of my guildmates abhor Nek 1 with a passion that rivals mine of Cauldron Hollow, so I really don't want to drag them through a zone they hate just so I can find out the next part of the story of Rikantus Everling and his ties to the Void.  I know those aren't raids, but they are zones I have to wait to be able to solo before I can experience them.  That doesn't bother me, no more than it bothered me do most of the Peacock Club quests grey - I've got no problem with waiting to enjoy the experience, nor do I mind that others are finishing these same quest lines and zones while they are blue or white or even yellow content.  And if they decided to make a solo version of Nek 2 with no loot drops, no xp, and only the continuing story and access to an equally-xpless Nek 3, I would be dancing in the streets.My comments on raids and raid-level loot were responses to Haapy's comments that it used to be if someone completed a zone (Nizara's in his example), you knew they were awesome - then they nerf it and now any random PUG can get through it (forgive me if the paraphrase is incorrect).  Combining this with his question to me of how would I feel if raid-mob drops were available on the city merchant, plus gear-drops from a specific zone being the easiest way to recognize that someone has been through that zone, I took it to mean that the rewards in terms of gear were an issue as well.  Something along the lines of "if any sad slacker can get the stuff, it's worthless."  Previous conversations concerning specific zones or quests have also raised the loot question a lot - shortly after the revamp of Deathfist Citadel, I asked about the possibility of a Cauldron Hollow revamp, and was immediately flamed by someone who said the zone was already too easy and did I want to "<span class="postbody">make Harla Dar a solo mob so you can finish Wurmslayer with your eyes closed?"  Whether these comments are meant to address the loot/reward as the most visible and easily recognizable evidence of the accomplishment, or whether they're about the gear being top-end and so deserving of astronomical effort to get, the loot is still an issue.  This is why I like the idea of alternate, lesser rewards for taking easier versions of quest or instance.  Those who take the easy road just so they can say they've been there have their toy as proof, while the people who are after the best loot still have their epic struggle which will keep said loot rare and valuable.If I misunderstood Haapy's post in thinking loot was part of the issue, I apologize.  But this is also why I asked the question in the first place - the cries of "it used to mean something" fly, rewards and loot tables are brought into the discussion, then someone asks "Why do you assume it's about the loot?"  Same thing with raiding - it's a gaming style choice, and people ask questions like "Why do you assume you can't raid?" or "Why do you assume I want to raid?"  If the problem isn't who can get the loot, or how we choose to play and balancing content against different playstyles, then from whence does the complaint rise?</span>

SnoesieQ
10-20-2007, 08:56 AM
<p>You are confusing two different things.</p><p>Someone's sense of their accomplishment being diminished by someone else achieving the same thing, and, an achievement no longer being an accomplishment because the rules have made it that much easier.</p><p>For instance - if runner A wins the marathon one year, they will still be that years winner and having their accomplishment, even if runner B wins the next year. However, if by the next year, the marathon have been shortened to half the distance, runner B haven't really accomplished the same achievement as runner A, have they?</p><p>Runner B will still have the title, but face it - most people would still feel that the accomplishment was diminished by the changed rules.</p><p>I rarely hear people complaining about tedium being removed from quests. But last time when I did T'Sanne, yes, I did feel very disappointed and as if completeing the Dragoon K'Naae HQ didn't mean the same thing as it used to to me, because T'Sanne was a single solomob instead of a heroic with two guards.</p><p>If all I wanted was a weapon, I would get one off the broker. (my swashy cant use it anyway) If all I wanted was the status, I would do a few writs in a fraction of the time for the same status.</p><p>Completing an HQ isn't lifealtering, not even IG, no. But having done so used to be an achievement because there was a challenge. Not because I had to kill owlbears for longer (tedium) but because I might actually fail with the named mob (challenge).</p><p>Its interesting that you mention getting a raise or promotion or being happy as being valid accomplishments. You see, I couldn't care less if you got a promotion or a raise. It means nothing to me. Does that mean it also means nothing for you? </p><p>Humans like challenges and like all animals, we like to get rewarded for success when there is a chance of failure. This goes in game same as in the office. Yes, if you fail at killing a named, you can always try again. Just as if you don't get a raise at first, you can try again later.</p><p>There is also that a lot of people put up with a lot of stupid tedious crap from the game mechanics, and when those things are changed, they get angry simply because they didn't have a choice in the matter when they did a quest or zone. Its not like they thought it was great fun to jump through stupid hoops, but they did, to get whatever reward - be it just a sense of having done something, getting a title or an item. Personally, I'm not one of those people, I don't mind, but to say that you can't understand how some people might feel differently about it is a bit strange to me. Seems quite obvious.</p><p>Its also very interesting that you use examples of you not being able to see or experience zones because you can't convince a few people to come with you... yet you think that people who not only convince 24 people to show up regularly but also to work together as a team through failure after failure and instead of giving up learn from it have accomplished nothing more than you showing up to a grey zone all by yourself? "I did Zone Y the most difficult way and all I got was this stupid buckler"? You make it about the loot, not the devs or the raiders. Sure, here, have this buckler/silly-looking helmet/sparkly wand.... in the meanwhile, I will enjoy the zone at my own convinience.</p><p>Raiding is a game style choice to an extent, yes. Personally, I don't raid - yet anyway. But it seems that a lot of people who want the rewards for raiding (be it sightseeing or loot) think that even the nicest and low-drama guild have no interpersonal issues and tentions to work through. That it never happens that people raid even though they would rather want to do something else. That no one ever disagrees with anyone else, or that no one ever gets frustrated if they wipe. Part of the challenge in raiding is that the mob requires a big bunch of people, yes. But the biggest challenge is to get that big bunch of people to not only work together, but to learn to play better together. So with all due respect - if you would rather not deal with all that, then don't complain about not experience that content.</p><p>You started off by saying that a game basically means nothing. Well, then it should mean nothing to you not to experience these zones, should it? After all, they are also just part of the same game. Pixels on a screen and all that - surely you can watch a youtube video and some screenshots?</p><p>Seems to me you do care, you are just not prepared to do what is neccessary to achieve your goal.</p>

liveja
10-20-2007, 10:19 AM
<p>Honestly, to me, [insert random accomplishment] "means" nothing at all, to anyone other than the person who did it.</p><p>That person, however, has the right to believe it means *life, the universe, & everything*, if he/she wishes.</p>

Lodrelhai
10-20-2007, 08:42 PM
Thanks for responses so far!With the race example, there's a bit of a difference - at least I see one.  Whoever wins that title simultaneously prevents anyone else in that race from getting it.  In this game, it's not a competition - at least I've never seen it as one.  Every single character in the game can have the Shiny Brass Halberd, and it does not change the fact that I got it.  In the marathon then, I guess it'd be more like a participant certificate.  But even with that, whether I ran 10K or 5K, I was still a participant in the race.You're right that my raise or promotion or personal happiness mean nothing to you.  There's no reason they should unless  I, in getting them, screwed you over in the process - thereby preventing you from getting the same.Just to clarify the raid thing once and for all: I do not in any way dismiss the skills and organization abilities of people who can pull together 24 people and make them into an awesome fighting force.  They work hard, they earn every bit of acclaim, personal satisfaction, or whatever it is they're after that they get.  I do not argue the fact that by waiting until the zone is grey to go explore it means I have not accomplished the same thing they have.  But I have accomplished my personal goal, and in doing so I have taken nothing from their hard word and achievement.And my guild doesn't raid as a guild because, counting my friend who just joined this summer, we have 8 active players.  2x content has just barely become a viable option.  All the more reason I admire the folks who can wrestle 24 people into a working raid force - we have a hard enough time scheduling 6 for a group!Perhaps my confusion will be a bit clearer with some specific examples.  These are some of the things I have seen requested on these boards to be implemented or reinstated because the associated accomplishment "used to mean something":Subcombines and dependancy on other classes in tradeskilling.The patron system and guild xp decay for guild levels.Mandatory access quests for standard overland zones - this one would actually be tougher than the old, optional access quests which simply got you into the zone at an earlier level.  In the old (oooooooold) system, if you didn't do the access quest to Zek, you got automatic access anyway when you hit a zone-appropriate level.  The requests I've seen since are that if you don't do the access quest, you can't get in at all.Bardspeed being the fastest possible speed boost available in-game.And, inevitably, that zone x or mob y or quest z be denerfed/made tougher.To me (and I stress this is my personal opinion), complaining about the removal of tedium is exactly what most of these requests are about.  Moreover, to me they sound very elitist: "I and 11 of my friends have the time and energy and drive to grind 10 writs a week each as well as pursue whatever personal quests/objectives we have.  Therefore everyone should have to do this just to maintain their guild level, never mind advancing it, or you don't deserve to have a lvl 30 guild."And no, it does not make sense to me.  I have nothing against people who want tougher content.  But why make it mandatory for everyone because you feel it's too easy?  What does it cost you that someone else has a simpler time than you did doing something?

Gnevil
10-21-2007, 02:42 AM
<p>Like we haven't seen this arguement so many times before.</p><p>Good or bad for better or worse the game has gotten considerably easier then it was 6 months ago, 1 year ago, 2 years ago, 3 years ago.</p><p>Why?  Becuase for the most part the those that complain the loudest and the most often, for whatever reason eventually get their way.  We need class balance, look at all the fun that has brought us.  Tradeskills, originally one of the highlights of the game with potential to really be its own game for a large chunk of the player base.  Now in a very real sense just about anyone can level a tradeskill to 70 if they choose it's merely a wrist exercise and a time sink in and of itself.  Leveling has gotten silly easy, anyone that's made it to 70 with a fair amount of questing can level a new alt to max in very short order, the information is there for maxing our your xp, what quests give the fastest and best xp, collections, disco you name it you can level in nothing flat if this is your choice.</p><p>Quests, Epic raid zones, prestige quests, signature quests.  All markers of your success in this game, it is a game but it is also an extension of yourself, we all invest an awfull lot of time in our avatars in the world of Norrath and just as we strive to make it in real life, we try to be the best that we can be in the game.</p><p>I can remember when a very few peeps ran around with Relic Hunter titles... now you simply level your alt to 50th and you can solo the 20 needed in nothing flat. It's no longer a marker of someone that has accomplished a real honored title.  Slayer titles, pretty simple now with the expansions and repetitive mobs at lower levels that have been nerfed from Heroic content to solo content readily able to be slaughtered in mass by even the weakest of dps classes.  </p><p>Progression makes alot of things obsolete and they will never mean what they once did.  That is inevitible so much so that the only things that mean anything anymore in the game are the newest shiny titles, gear ect that only the top 20% of the gamers can achieve.  Having that port flower in your home, and not having bought it as a drop from a raiding guild but being the one that went there an defeated the mobs to get the components and the recipe to make it yourself.  Finishing those extremely long and difficult quests to their ultimate finish and getting your reward, whether you will ever use it or not.</p><p>This is why housing is so important to many people in the game.  Who of you dont have a handfull of friends or guildmates that put alot of time and effort into creating a trophy wall, case, room in their homes in game and are excited to have you see it and admire all the shiny things they have gotten in game with alot of hard work and time invested.  But if everyone could simply go to the city broker and buy the same items and hang them on the wall it kind of lessens the achievement of the person who did it him or herself.  </p><p>Is this elitism, no not in my opinion anyone can get near anything in the game short of avatar loot.  You just have to work at it and make a decision to do it.  What ever it may be, but having things nerfed so horribly on a regular basis which makes it a trivial run to get the item, mob or title is lessening it for us all.  Eventually they will make it so that pretty much anyone will be running around with all the currently rare stuff in the game and the game will loose its drive for alot of players.  </p><p>Competetion is a deep seeded need in the human race, its a game but still something we compete at.  Whether causual a few hours a week, or a hardcore player that plays 3 to 4 hours a day 4 or more times a week.  We each compare ourselves to each other at our chosen play style. We have needs and wants that we want to accomplish.  Making it so everyone and his brother can get it with such ease lessens it for everyone.</p><p>Sorry for the ramble but this is the balancing act that the Devs have to deal with everytime they make a change to the game.  </p>

NANEEJE
10-21-2007, 05:25 AM
<p>I believe from what I have seen, the game was made for everyone, not just you, or me, or us, or them, or we.... content for every individual need, and if not? there is always WoW... or maybe... college?</p><p>Seriously, I hear of how quick people can get to 70, if they know the game, but for my first time, its taking quite a while. I see your point, but I look at it different , thats all. I hope you find peace... and continue your journey to greatness, and i will say congrats if you send me a tell telling me that you, finally you ,have slammed the arcan skies and made it rain lunar fragments... I will congratulate you.</p>